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How well can you carry?

Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

Pvp in this game is more about team play rather than personal skill. Makes sense since this is an MMO.

But then all the lines get blurred. If team play trumps all, then why is there an option to Solo Q? Why are Solo Q players matched up against Duo Q players? Anyone with a sliver of compatibility to someone else gains a dramatic advantage.

...Maybe Pvp isn't about team play. Maybe Personal Skill can raise you to the very top. I mean, there's a whole leader board that gauges your own personal skill rating. But then again, why is conquest all about team play then? There's roles including roamers, team fighters, bunkers, bruisers, etc. One person can't successfully achieve all roles. He'll need a team.

In the end, you'll probably need both. A good team, plus good skill. Not to mention balancing and meta classes. If you're playing an underhanded class, you're back to the drawing board again. Then there's matchmaking, off hour ques, low population. Which leads to the main point: pvp in GW2 is kitten.

Comments

  • DragonFury.6243DragonFury.6243 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I was decaping far get jumped by 2 players I managed to kill them both an looked at the map and saw my team lose 4v3 at close

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stallic.2397 said:
    In the end, you'll probably need both. A good team, plus good skill.

    What noooooooooooooooooo...

    It cant be that simple.

    It just cant.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Aktium.9506Aktium.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    Kinda depends on your role.

    Support and teamfighters generally can't carry a game as much as +1 and sidenoders.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aktium.9506 said:
    Kinda depends on your role.

    Support and teamfighters generally can't carry a game as much as +1 and sidenoders.

    I remember my days in nvo as support.
    I could quadruple the damage permanently of one of my teammates, while also dishing heavy aoe heals.
    It was super overpowered. It also was bad in ranked, even with such broken support capabilities it was still better to play the strongest dps and try to carry that way.
    Supports rely on team to make an impact, if you get an amazing glyph as tempest its high value right? well not if the person you picked up is a kitten and gets himself killed 5s later, no matter how good at supporting you can heal the stupid.

  • I've been carried. As long as the team is good enough, 1 player can make the difference.
    Also, as a constant initial target from the other teams, just to have the luck to survive the bursts and all the kitten, again, if the team is good enough, we can make it.
    Luck in counter classes will have detrimental effect on who goes down first in team fights.
    For example, I can survive some 1v2, but even 2v1s with the correct classes, the '1' might win that fight.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    1. Rotations. You can carry by being where you're most impactful at all times.
    2. Mechanical skill. You can carry by taking matchups you theoretically should lose every time.
    3. Avoiding stagger. You can carry by simply not going down allowing you to contest the map while your friends respawn.
    4. Kiting. You can carry by forcing the other team to send more resources your way.
    5. Split second decisions. You can carry by stomping, ressing, interrupting and landing key skills at key times.

    None of these require a duo, but are easier done with one. I love when enemy team has a duo, since they often roam the map together allowing you to easily outrotate.

    Carrying really is all about building a point buffer in case someone messes up. You optimize the chances of success and minimize the risk of failure. If you are an average player you can only account for 1/5th of your team's capacity, which is why you need to do better to reliable carry. Sometimes even that is enough though, because the enemy team also mess up sometimes.

    There are 2 kinds of players:

    • "That soulbeast on far plays an op build I'm going to afk" (blue team)
    • "I'll hold close" (red team)

    Only one of them is carrying. Doesn't matter if you find it unfair, unfun or impossible. The ones who carry will adapt no matter what, whether it be through improving mechanical skill or switching to an op build. They don't cry about it. They carry.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2020

    @Stallic.2397 said:
    Pvp in this game is more about team play rather than personal skill. Makes sense since this is an MMO.

    This game is entirely based around build strength. There is so little personal skill to develop or teamwork to coordinate when you get a minimap and team viewer that tells you exactly what classes are being played and where at any given time. If anything, this game is mostly dictated by "personal skill," if you define "personal skill" as "ability to look at a minimap" and "ability to shed enough self-respect in order to abuse this game's laughable PvP meta."

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:
    Pvp in this game is more about team play rather than personal skill. Makes sense since this is an MMO.

    This game is entirely based around build strength. There is so little personal skill to develop or teamwork to coordinate when you get a minimap and team viewer that tells you exactly what classes are being played and where at any given time. If anything, this game is mostly dictated by "personal skill," if you define "personal skill" as "ability to look at a minimap" and "ability to shed enough self-respect in order to abuse this game's laughable PvP meta."

    Indeed, that's why the top PvPers farm people. They have the best builds. Skill doesn't matter.

    lol...

    If your team wins it's because of everyone else. If your team loses, blame the thief.
    ranger is OP but holo is more OP so its fine
    Why do this matter at all, you have people asking you why play so bad as fractal god?

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It does suck knowing you're an average player, successfully downing people repeatedly or 2v1'ing on a side node only to see your team consistently dying with no other caps. :(

    Some you just can't carry.

    Unless maybe you're a really really good thief and can consistently get kills and spend the entire match constantly moving. Or are a bunker troll build that can lure 3+ to a side node.

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:
    Pvp in this game is more about team play rather than personal skill. Makes sense since this is an MMO.

    This game is entirely based around build strength. There is so little personal skill to develop or teamwork to coordinate when you get a minimap and team viewer that tells you exactly what classes are being played and where at any given time. If anything, this game is mostly dictated by "personal skill," if you define "personal skill" as "ability to look at a minimap" and "ability to shed enough self-respect in order to abuse this game's laughable PvP meta."

    This is not true, you ever played at?

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2020

    @Avatar.3568 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:
    Pvp in this game is more about team play rather than personal skill. Makes sense since this is an MMO.

    This game is entirely based around build strength. There is so little personal skill to develop or teamwork to coordinate when you get a minimap and team viewer that tells you exactly what classes are being played and where at any given time. If anything, this game is mostly dictated by "personal skill," if you define "personal skill" as "ability to look at a minimap" and "ability to shed enough self-respect in order to abuse this game's laughable PvP meta."

    This is not true, you ever played at?

    The only thing that hopping into discord truly does is narrow the burst windows. Being able to communicate without typing is just brute force leverage if its being employed against teams who queue without it, and at the end of the day, it still will generally come down to build comp over "player skill." You can have the """best GW2 players in the world""" in a 5v5 conquest setting, but if you handicap one team with builds that just don't do all of the good meta things, then they're going to lose. Moreover, the fact that so much of a match is decided either before it begins (through builds) or through in-game actions that aren't directly fighting other players in PvP (i.e. rotating via minimap info, pressing F on a downed guy) shows how oppressively low the skill ceiling of the GW2 gameplay cycle can be.

    @knite.1542 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:
    Pvp in this game is more about team play rather than personal skill. Makes sense since this is an MMO.

    This game is entirely based around build strength. There is so little personal skill to develop or teamwork to coordinate when you get a minimap and team viewer that tells you exactly what classes are being played and where at any given time. If anything, this game is mostly dictated by "personal skill," if you define "personal skill" as "ability to look at a minimap" and "ability to shed enough self-respect in order to abuse this game's laughable PvP meta."

    Indeed, that's why the top PvPers farm people. They have the best builds. Skill doesn't matter.

    lol...

    The only thing that separates "top GW2 players" from everyone else is that they know the match-ups well. "Good GW2 players" will basically avoid combat forever in PvP if it means finding that one easy fight that is effectively going to assure them a capture node flip and/or a free kill. Player rock-paper-scissors while already half-knowing what your opponent is going to throw isn't really an example of some sort of high-level brain function.

    All this aside, I think the initial point I was trying to make was that GW2 PvP IS almost entirely determined by individual player skill; it's just that skill development is insulated and stifled by the fact that most builds in GW2 are pretty shallow and homogeneous in scope across all classes, and that hurts the competitive scene on the whole because it's not that exciting to watch or play when everything is sort of put on rails from the moment the match starts.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DragonFury.6243 said:
    I was decaping far get jumped by 2 players I managed to kill them both an looked at the map and saw my team lose 4v3 at close

    Maybe they had one player who could 1v2 your team as well

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In close games skill makes a difference. More so in lower rated games. It is much harder to carry in 1,600 games, but these are close to nonexistent outside tournaments. Also, play something that has the capability to solo, and maybe even 2v1. In a nut shell, bruiser builds work best for carrying. If aliens suck, try to avoid team fights. Your efforts will end up being worthless.

  • Skorpis.4372Skorpis.4372 Member ✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020

    for me pvp always felt like rock paper and scissors with extra steps. If you run a "paper" build is extremely challenging to beat a "scissors" build. Also your team mates builds can complement one another or do the opposite. It's all about luck on teams composition. Thats why some games are very one sided.

  • mistsim.2748mistsim.2748 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020

    Not all specs and roles can carry in Conquest.

    For example, a +1'er no matter how well played won't be able to carry a game.

    I think good side-noders, and supports who can survive in mid fights can carry. My condi Soulbeast shreds all the meta builds on the side-node and, well, it carries.

    Specs that can do multiple roles can carry as well. This is why Holo and Malyx are so incredible. In general, these types of builds shouldn't be a thing.

    ANet had plenty of opportunities to learn about this, especially from the Cele meta. yet we are still getting builds that can fulfill multiple roles just as well as the specialists. This is just brain-dead design.

  • mistsim.2748mistsim.2748 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @DragonFury.6243 said:
    I was decaping far get jumped by 2 players I managed to kill them both an looked at the map and saw my team lose 4v3 at close

    Maybe they had one player who could 1v2 your team as well

    This is possible, but unlikely.

    What actually happens in sub-plat ranks, and sometimes even in Plat 1 is this:

    People don't run condi cleanse for burns. People walk into Dragonhunter blenders without cooldowns. People don't know how to fight Reapers.

    90% of the time, feeding occurs for the above reasons. If anyone wants to progress up the ranks, for whatever it's worth, roll Reaper, core burn guard, or DH. These specs take advantage of the problems with Conquest. And people generally don't know how to deal with these builds.

  • mistsim.2748mistsim.2748 Member ✭✭✭

    @Skorpis.4372 said:
    for me pvp always felt like rock paper and scissors with extra steps. If you run a "paper" build is extremely challenging to beat a "scissors" build. Also your team mates builds can complement one another or do the opposite. It's all about luck on teams composition. Thats why some games are very one sided.

    It's not. RPS would actually be good for the game. As I outlined above, there are always a few specs that do multiple roles effectively. I keep saying they need to get rid of this nonsense. The best balanced periods of the game didn't have these builds around, by accident I'm sure. For example, the brief pre-HoT period when balance was decent.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    It does suck knowing you're an average player, successfully downing people repeatedly or 2v1'ing on a side node only to see your team consistently dying with no other caps. :(

    Some you just can't carry.

    Unless maybe you're a really really good thief and can consistently get kills and spend the entire match constantly moving. Or are a bunker troll build that can lure 3+ to a side node.

    You need to realize you are the one throwing here. You need to identify where your team struggles and remedy that, clearly they are struggling on the other nodes and you are no help at all staying on far regardless if it's a 1v4.

    Sometimes it's one player your team can't deal with, then you need to stay on them at all times. If you cap far and they die mid you should have been there to swing the fight.

    Simply being in a 1v2 means absolutely nothing if f.ex you have one dead teammate. This is not carrying, it's throwing.

    This is what successful players realized a long time ago. It doesn't mean you are bad, but you have to give up the notion of "doing your part" and play it like your teammates are npc's every time. Your strength lies in knowing what your teammates don't (death timers, minimap positions, favourable matchups, score deficits, personal skill and win conditions), and you need to use that to your advantage in order to give them the easiest time possible during the entirety of the match- this in turn optimizes your chances of a win.

    Sometimes it can be something as simple as making sure you win the first midfight so your low rated teammate doesn't afk for the rest of the game :)

    In your example, you would be doing stellar work as long as your team was doing good on just 1 other node. The problem is in conquest just 1 node is not enough to win you the game. This is what makes conquest extremely carryable, because in essence you are not carrying 20% of the teams weight (like in a moba), you can carry 50% (1/2 nodes) and let them carry the remaining 50% (2/2 nodes) in order to win.

    Good insight. This is what I struggle with as a solo queue player that only dabbles in pvp. I fight a lot better than I read the map and I'm sure I have lost winnable games by not seeing these things.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172

    It's not easy by along shot, things get hectic when you are the one playing :#

    But if you know the basics of conquest all you have to ask is where to go where you will make a desicive difference - and follow through.

    By playing alot eventually you realize these things, took me the longest time f.ex to realize that I messed up if there was an ongoing engagement on mid and I decided to full cap far, meanwhile they got outnumbered and died. Told myself "nothing I can do", but then I learned to decap and always go mid and instantly the mid fights started swinging in our direction allowing me to cap far fully right after resulting in massive snowballs.

    Or when as a warr you see a thief going go decap you, I would always chase him to the decapped node. Then I realized that it was pointless - he would decap it anyway and I should rather stay mid so instead of potentially losing both mid and the node I was protecting, I could always hold mid plus leaving us 5v4 while the thief was decapping allowing quick kills.

    As long as you think and want to improve at these things, it'll come with experience. Problem is for most people playing conquest is a way to unwind and relax, not think so much and I get that. But that gives you the edge you need to stand out and carry.