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The Commander's Psyche, an open question.

blackheartgary.8605blackheartgary.8605 Member ✭✭✭
edited June 29, 2020 in Lore

Hello. I am here to ask a question. It is in the Lore section because I feel the question pertains to a lot of the lore over the years as it pertains to the Commander, and in particular, their mental state.
My question is... what Mental State do you feel the Commander is in right now?
Personally, I believe that the Commander is starting to slowly unravel. The statements Joko made about the Commander, however diabolical they sound... seem eerily accurate. Regardless of Racial origins, each "version" of the commander, with "version" being your choice in the personal story, has ultimately ended up with the Commander being "always in the forefront, always in trouble", even when the story is not about them in particular.
So? Is the Commander losing their mind? Or is it something else?

<1

Comments

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    First, I think people are taking Joko's trash talking way too seriously. ;)

    Still, interesting topic. I believe in this case we should actually not discuss one Commander, but realize that they are actually at least 10 different characters who happen to share most of the dialog lines. The voice acting directions the different Commanders get seem to be vastly different, so this is surely intentional. It's also pretty consistent between different language versions.

    I have not played the entire story on too many characters yet, unfortunately, so I don't have a complete picture. However, my impression so far is that the Commander in general has been canonically going through some kind of depression for a while. I'd say it started after HoT and lasted at least through PoF and LS4. The human female character seems to have gotten better by the time LS4 ended. The asuras and norn don't seem to be too affected in general, or they are better at hiding it. The one that really stands out to me is the female sylvari, who seriously seems to be out of her depths ever since HoT, constantly angry and frustrated with everything and everyone. I had a bit of hope at the ending of LS4, but oh no, in LS5 she went right back into snapping at her supposed friends. (Honestly, I don't like playing the story on this character anymore because of this.)

    All in all, right now I don't get the impression the Commanders are unstable or getting worse. Quite the opposite. And also, I think Joko was just doing his usual thing and should not be taken seriously at all.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    First, I think people are taking Joko's trash talking way too seriously. ;)

    All in all, right now I don't get the impression the Commanders are unstable or getting worse. Quite the opposite. And also, I think Joko was just doing his usual thing and should not be taken seriously at all.

    Cut out the parts I'm not responding to...

    ArenaNet did say they deliberately had Joko getting cut off so that he couldn't be interrogated for details, but in Joko's case it's a bit of a 'he's not entirely wrong, but he's certainly not telling the whole truth either and is missing a lot of the nuance'. About the only time the Commander could be said to have had a real choice was Zhaitan - it's possible that Zhaitan could have been contained, and may even have returned to a state of relative quiescence after the assault on Lion's Arch was repulsed if the Pact hadn't started going after him in turn. But back then, we really had no clue that killing the dragons could be a bad thing.

    In Mordremoth's case, we had a few clues, but Mordremoth was just too close to too many important things to be left alone. The Exalted, who were probably the most knowledgeable about what was going on, were urging us to go ahead and kill Mordremoth despite the risks. Mordremoth was simply too close to Tarir, Rata Sum, and the Grove, and it wasn't practical to keep him contained in the long term.

    Killing Balthazar is a pretty clear-cut case of choosing the least bad option. If not stopped, Balthazar's actions were going to result in the world's destruction. The PC tried negotiation, but Balthazar wasn't listening. The consequences of killing Balthazar were, ultimately, more manageable than the consequences of letting Balthazar kill the Elder Dragons without having any replacements.

    All things considered, the PC has left a trail of chaos in their wake... but things would probably be worse if not for the PC. However, it's certainly understandable that the PC might not be so sure of that.

  • Orimidu.9604Orimidu.9604 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Main issue with trying to pin down a personality of any kind on the Commander is that ANet intentionally writes the character as a blank slate. They might give some personality here and there for the context of the plot - HoT had the Commander acting like a proper military soldier, for example, while PoF had the Commander having a "I don't have time for kitten" take, but overall there doesn't seem to be an established mental state or mood for the Commander, as it seems like it changes by the episode.

    So, in the end, we can only headcanon the Commander's mental state, which I imagine is ANet's intention.

    There are fairly clear hints that the Commander is just growing tired during S4, after dealing with just too much in S3 and PoF (what with guild drama, White Mantle insanity, learning they've been kitten kitten up accidentally, and then Balthazar), but by the end of it, when Icebrood Saga began, all of that seems to have disappeared completely, and we're back to a personality akin to Season 2 - experienced, having dealt with all sorts of situations, but not exhausted. And given No Quarter, to a degree, it even feels like the Commander has forgotten some of their own past deeds (like slaughtering Inquest in a soon-to-explode facility while they're running around in a panic rather than fighting back... Sounds all too similar to a certain Searing Crystal situation).

    True to the headcanon bit. Personally (human male PC here), I feel that throughout S4 the PC was constantly wondering if everything they were doing was pointless. Each dragon faced is more powerful than the previous, and with Kralk messing with the Mists itself, and the confirmed departure of the Six (now the Five or less), the PC is surely second guessing the motivation to continue the elder dragon fight after ending Kralk's reign of terror (which wasn't even Kralk's fault for the most part).

    After S4, the PC gets a second wind. Kralk is gone, Aurene took his place, and so far everything seems kinda peachy. Then the civil war thing starts with Bangar, and the PC is desperate to prevent a second "Kralk-level threat". In addition, he's helping a friend (Rytlock) in need. Jormag's going to play to the PC's mental state for sure, that's what the whispers are all about--asking rhetorical questions like "aren't you tired" so the people confirm their own doubts and fall prey to its corruption.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    It's been made very clear as the story goes on that the Commander is very tired. They get more and more irritated with people and situations as time goes on, and its hinted that the PC gets very little rest or recovery time, too.

    That said, the PC has other established traits in canon as well, such as being kind of lazy and impatient, always late to everything (sometimes even after major disasters or the establishment of entire outposts into unexplored areas), and not being the sharpest tool in the shed, like when they're repeatedly mocked by NPCs for not being able to solve puzzles easily.

    There's probably more that I'm forgetting about. But these traits make it hard to judge how everything's affected them.

    Which I hate because that's not how some characters are. Playing an Asura and being made dumb to fit the Commander narrative is atrocious.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Main issue with trying to pin down a personality of any kind on the Commander is that ANet intentionally writes the character as a blank slate. They might give some personality here and there for the context of the plot - HoT had the Commander acting like a proper military soldier, for example, while PoF had the Commander having a "I don't have time for kitten" take, but overall there doesn't seem to be an established mental state or mood for the Commander, as it seems like it changes by the episode.

    So, in the end, we can only headcanon the Commander's mental state, which I imagine is ANet's intention.

    There are fairly clear hints that the Commander is just growing tired during S4, after dealing with just too much in S3 and PoF (what with guild drama, White Mantle insanity, learning they've been kitten kitten up accidentally, and then Balthazar), but by the end of it, when Icebrood Saga began, all of that seems to have disappeared completely, and we're back to a personality akin to Season 2 - experienced, having dealt with all sorts of situations, but not exhausted. And given No Quarter, to a degree, it even feels like the Commander has forgotten some of their own past deeds (like slaughtering Inquest in a soon-to-explode facility while they're running around in a panic rather than fighting back... Sounds all too similar to a certain Searing Crystal situation).

    TLDR; I agree with the above. I think the 'blank slate' PC should have been paired with better use of the charm/ferocity/dignity dialogue system to more clearly allow us to express our own headcanon without requiring extra voice acting or extensive writing resources.

    This pretty much sums up my take on the matter. I think the Commander is designed by ANet to be intentionally vague, so as to be compatible with a broad range of what players might want to think about their characters.

    I just think the centrality of the "Commander" role represents a huge lost opportunity to easily allow players to develop Commander personality independently. Specifically, I'm thinking of the Dignity (crown)/Ferocity (fist)/Charm (heart) system. If we weren't the Commander, it would have made more sense for us to go through the story responding and observing via these three choices however we pleased. All ANet would have to do is give us a few text choices; none of the heart/fist/crown choices were voiced in the core game, and that was fine! They maybe could have added a 4th "exhausted" and 5th "indifferent" category too. Maybe they would have had to record different NPC responses based on our choice, but at least that could be the same voice actor doing a few different lines, which seems a lot easier to manage than every player character voice actor doing 5 different responses (which is where the bigger effort/time/money problems come in, I think).

    IMO, it would have been a pretty low-cost way to offer players the choice of revealing what is going on inside their characters' heads. The tradeoff would be that our characters would have to be a step back from the action, or key scenes would be un-voiced to maintain that heart/fist/crown choice. For instance we wouldn't necessarily have that uniform reaction to Almorra's corpse, perhaps, if we proved totally indifferent or even deeply hostile to Charr/The Vigil all along. But given how they removed our characters entirely from the Fraenir cutscene, if they feel like the story can allow our characters to just disappear from key moments, why not allow us the choice to be snarky or indifferent but just not have that impact the emotional story scenes? Just... just lost opportunities, all around.

    This is yet another example of a system with potential that ANet just abandoned. I'm not saying that it's the most awesome thing ever or it's a priority of any kind, but it's just indicative of how easily ANet just gives up on stuff. A huge difference between this approach and another game I play more these days, where the devs (1) openly apologize to the player base for sucking at balance, and (2) revisit old systems to make them relevant, sometimes in very big ways. The willingness to revisit obsolete systems to have them fulfill more potential than anyone ever expected... that sort of thing is what makes a game feel viable moving forward, numbers aside. On the other hand, seeing a great game littered with the ghosts and ruins of potentially awesome systems that will never see the light of day, that just gives off a sense of a game struggling to meet its potential.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020

    Maybe they could give us someone to talk to (optional). A bartender, maybe? Was thinking about a friend at first, as there is on one who feels like that. But maybe someone less related would be better, so a bartender or maybe (if I go a little wild) some decently known but not too close person from the PC's race? (Maybe, idk, Kahedins for sylvari, I don't play other races much so I don't know who could work for them.) And if the Commander goes to talk with this NPC there could be several line to choose from to let us choose how much anyone's PC is affected (sorry for lack of better words, hehe).

    Edit: Or maybe we could dump it all on Lady Camilla? She's been stalking us since forever, so she knows anyway...

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    All things...grow. And the blossom bothers the weed.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • Mahou.3924Mahou.3924 Member ✭✭✭

    The one that really stands out to me is the female sylvari, who seriously seems to be out of her depths ever since HoT, constantly angry and frustrated with everything and everyone. I had a bit of hope at the ending of LS4, but oh no, in LS5 she went right back into snapping at her supposed friends. (Honestly, I don't like playing the story on this character anymore because of this.)

    I had the same impression in how the fem Sylvari PC had always sounded so stressed-out and tensions-loaded in HoT, although I love the voice-acting (and the male Asura sometimes quite asthmatic / out of breath :lol: )

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mahou.3924 said:

    The one that really stands out to me is the female sylvari, who seriously seems to be out of her depths ever since HoT, constantly angry and frustrated with everything and everyone. I had a bit of hope at the ending of LS4, but oh no, in LS5 she went right back into snapping at her supposed friends. (Honestly, I don't like playing the story on this character anymore because of this.)

    I had the same impression in how the fem Sylvari PC had always sounded so stressed-out and tensions-loaded in HoT, although I love the voice-acting (and the male Asura sometimes quite asthmatic / out of breath :lol: )

    Keep in mind that as a Sylvari the PC has to put up with even more discontent than the other races.

    Until LS5, pretty much everyone loves the PC and there's rarely any conflicts directed at them, only towards others. But if Sylvari, that's not the case from HoT onwards; the PC is mistrusted during the Modremoth campaign, and it lingers for a long time, too.

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  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020

    Absolutely. And I am sure it is very intentional.
    However, considering she also treats her own guild mates like this... And not just in HoT and LS3, but to this day. Don't know about male sylvari, haven't played recent stories with them.

  • Mahou.3924Mahou.3924 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't remember the male Syvarie to be that stressed-out. To me, he always sounds quite sophisticated and "normal", even during some high-tension scenes like when you defend Aurene's egg and you-know-who appears (compared to female Sylvari, female Human).

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The Commander is an extremely stressed individual.

    Yu can tell by the dialogue over the seasons that there are lesser and lesser positive options (or options in general) as well as recorded dialogue that they are pretty tired, yet can't say no.

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    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Hypnowulf.7403Hypnowulf.7403 Member ✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    why? asura ARE dumb. Lab explosions and uncontrollable golems are not the sign of genius at work.

    I'd contend that some asura can be better than that, while others are scatterbrained and overly competitive, but it was the sheer stupidity of the Inquest in LWS4 episode 2 that was dizzying to me.

    "Why yes, we do keep samples of a deadly plague that could kill everyone around in not especially secure areas, why do you ask?"
    "What's wrong with the password SM4RT3RTH4NY0U?"
    "Indeed, we have setup branding experiments in minimally secured areas and we are indeed creating a branded army (of living and undead) as we speak. Do you have a problem with that?"
    "Of course, we do pririotise sociopathy over intellect! A superior race would do that, what of it?"
    "Yes, we are testing applications of mind control using Kralkatorrik's magic. What do you mean that would put anyone we used it on under Kralkatorrik's control?"
    "What do you mean I shouldn't leave password reset emails sitting around for weeks?"
    "What do you mean we should use some kind of unique identifier to open doors rather than simplistic puzzles that a child could figure out to secure dangerous areas?"
    "What do you mean we shouldn't keep running experiments that have a ridiculously high risk of activating our own Armageddon-level quarantine procedures?"

    And this isn't even accounting for the pseudointellectuality in almost everything they wrote and did.

  • vier.1327vier.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    I think the commander is tired, exhausted from the Tyria Police Department. And also are the regrets and all the lost, from our mentor and all the people that we have killed ( I like to think that sometimes he thinks on them).

    Arenanet should give us some quiet episode, just us hanging out with our friends, a party that does not end with a dragon attack ( Ammon and Grothmar), just to remember him for what is fighting.

    No drama, no fighting scene, just dialogue and character development.

    Where would be the point? I do not know, maybe different dialogue options that end in different weird and funny situation.

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Orimidu.9604 said:
    The utter chaos can begin an episode or two after we arrive in Cantha, please. I'm tired of jumping into the action as soon as I show up somewhere. It's Cantha, give us some time to take in the scenery and culture before kittens hit the fan.

    Given that Cantha is controlled by a racist, xenophobic, Empire, that violently forced out all non-humans, and even has a "Ministry of Purity" to serve as Secret Police to ensure everyone remains "loyal" to the Empire, I don't see us going there normally. I doubt they would let in even Tyrians, or Elonians, let alone non-humans like Charr, Asura, Sylvari, or Norn. The Zephyrites were seemingly only allowed in becuase they were mostly humans of Canthan descent.

    If anything, the expansion may have us working with some rebel/separatist group, and the story is us starting off in Shing Je, then moving into the city, to take down the Ministry of Purity, and free the Empire from thier grasp. With the living world season going into the Echovald, and Jade sea, and probably the ocean, to deal with the Kurzicks and Luxons, and the Water Dragon.

    @Orimidu.9604 said:
    I'd love to revist Southsun (minus the Karka, make it instanced) with Dragon's Watch & Friends for some R&R after Icebrood Saga ends. It's probably the one place where all races can enjoy the map, too.

    If IBS gets an epilogue map(which it might since it rather uniquely had a prologue), I suspect it would probably involve the Tengu opening the Dominion of Winds finally, with some big end reveal that the Tengu are going back to Cantha one way or another, or something like that.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @bluecheeseplate.2753 said:

    @anninke.7469 said:
    Maybe they could give us someone to talk to (optional).... And if the Commander goes to talk with this NPC there could be several line to choose from to let us choose how much anyone's PC is affected (sorry for lack of better words, hehe).

    There was actually a Dredge NPC in one of LS4's later episodes that allowed us, to an extent, choose our attitudes regarding the social and/or ethical issues the Commander's race faction deals with. For example, if you spoke to the Dredge as a Sylvari, she would start poking holes into the Sylvari philosophy of fervently chasing one's Wyld Hunt. The conversation basically leads to you either stuttering when presented with a hypothetically unethical wyld hunt, or proclaiming that you forge your own path forward. Likewise, an Asura commander would be questioned about their personal thoughts on Inquest influence in Asuran society, which IIRC can range from 'idgaf' to 'Yeah, they're terrible'.

    Edit: Found her. Sage Ninukab for anyone who wants to see the dialogue.

    I know and I like that one a lot. However talking to this NPC is more like "are you sure you're not wrong?" than "hey, come here and talk, I'll listen (and can relate or at least pretend to)".

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    All things...grow. And the blossom bothers the weed.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    With respect to Cantha, two observations:

    First, it was the rise of Zhaitan that ended trade with Cantha, not the Ministry of Purity. So it doesn't seem as if they're so xenophobic as to block human visitors. Other races might be more of a problem, but Cantha has always viewed itself as a trading empire - it might well accept nonhumans as long as they remain in designated areas.

    Second, trade has been cut off for long enough that Canthan policy may have flipflopped, possibly even multiple times. I suspect we will find ourselves going up against some form of corruption in the Canthan government at some point (that much has pretty much been a constant, it just changes form), but it could well be something that LOOKS functional when we first arrive.

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭

    About Sage ninukab in thunderhead, he just starts saying he admires the krewe system. But just after, because you asura use the speriority complex and say the social system is perfect then ninukab reply that the lack of authority lead to the inquest. And that being tolerated whereas unethical researchs, it's because there are happy persons to receive their researchs. In no way you can state "I freaking like inquest or I hate them deeply" it's always the.... "you know, i don't really share their mindset" or "we agree on both they are bad", I've enough pf the game forcing me to answer a certain way. At least I were able to pick awakened for amnoon....

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  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭

    @bluecheeseplate.2753 said:

    @anninke.7469 said:
    Maybe they could give us someone to talk to (optional).... And if the Commander goes to talk with this NPC there could be several line to choose from to let us choose how much anyone's PC is affected (sorry for lack of better words, hehe).

    There was actually a Dredge NPC in one of LS4's later episodes that allowed us, to an extent, choose our attitudes regarding the social and/or ethical issues the Commander's race faction deals with. For example, if you spoke to the Dredge as a Sylvari, she would start poking holes into the Sylvari philosophy of fervently chasing one's Wyld Hunt. The conversation basically leads to you either stuttering when presented with a hypothetically unethical wyld hunt, or proclaiming that you forge your own path forward. Likewise, an Asura commander would be questioned about their personal thoughts on Inquest influence in Asuran society, which IIRC can range from 'idgaf' to 'Yeah, they're terrible'.

    Edit: Found her. Sage Ninukab for anyone who wants to see the dialogue.

    Hey I remember that NPC! I played a Sylvari then too. I seem to remember cheerfully telling her I would kill her if that were my Wyld Hunt but don't worry, that would never be my Wyld Hunt.

  • Sheader.6827Sheader.6827 Member ✭✭✭

    One day, when the story of GW2 ends, if the commander doesn't end up in a mental institution, then ANET would've missed their opportunity to deliver a hammer hitting ending.

    If it were done when ’tis done, then ’twere well it were done quickly. That but this blow might be the be-all and the end-all—here.
    Macbeth Act 1, scene 7

  • Obliviscaris.6937Obliviscaris.6937 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    Obviously nuts. The moment my character turned down the Elonian wine from Zalambur at the casino meeting, I knew she was not well. Please. I'd be INHALING it if I was under that much stress.

  • JekthAvid.1408JekthAvid.1408 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2020

    I play a sylvari male. He seems... tired. Just done. Obviously in the heat of battle and while trying to protect people all that goes out the window, but when the smoke clears and the room goes quiet... He feels the weight of everything that's happened and--ThAt'S VAluAbLe!!!

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Batel.9206 said:

    [1] What happened to that supposed Wyld Hunt, anyway? Trahearne and the sylvari PC, back in Season Two, figured out the sylvari PC's Wyld Hunt was not to kill Zhaitan or Mordremoth, but ALL of the Elder Dragons. Was that plot point quietly dropped (haven't encountered it since), or is our poor sylvari PC still being driven onward by an impossible Wyld Hunt?

    You know what? I actually came to believe that this so called Wyld Hunt to kill dragons is a big fat LIE. I mean, the first WH starting your personal story was believable. But the dragon fighting? Come on, it was the Shadow of the Dragon we fought and I really think that the Pale Tree just covered the truth by making the incident into supposed dragon killing Wyld Hunt. And anything figured out in S2 is suspicious at least... (And just to be clear all this is my personal speculation and feelings, nothing I claim to be canonical or dev-intended.)

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    All things...grow. And the blossom bothers the weed.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The s5 ep1 boss fight makes me wonder what team the Human commander is rooting for. When Braham tries to confirm that the group won't listen to Jormag, every other comander imediately replies "right". The Human commander, on the other hand, hesitates.

    The Human commander has always seemed tired since Lws3 ep3, when Braham rejected them and the only one who stuck by the commander was Taimi. After that, it's just a conga line of tragedy that's kind of jaded the character.

  • XenoSpyro.1780XenoSpyro.1780 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    First, I think people are taking Joko's trash talking way too seriously. ;)

    Especially, since the PC has an ace card that trumps Joko's "don't kill dragons" speech. Aurene.

    @Obliviscaris.6937 said:
    The moment my character turned down the Elonian wine from Zalambur at the casino meeting, I knew she was not well.

    kitten. If only we had a system in place that adjusted a characters personality or behavior based on your actions or choices. Can't quite put my finger on it.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the Commander already had a very literal reset moment during PoF - briefly forgot who they were, and had no idea where they were at the time. Not going to spoil it, but it should be fairly obvious (for those of us who played through it) what I'm getting at. After that point, in my head the Commander might indeed get physically exhausted from time to time, but got something of a fresh start again.

  • Obliviscaris.6937Obliviscaris.6937 Member ✭✭✭

    @XenoSpyro.1780 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    First, I think people are taking Joko's trash talking way too seriously. ;)

    Especially, since the PC has an ace card that trumps Joko's "don't kill dragons" speech. Aurene.

    @Obliviscaris.6937 said:
    The moment my character turned down the Elonian wine from Zalambur at the casino meeting, I knew she was not well.

    kitten. If only we had a system in place that adjusted a characters personality or behavior based on your actions or choices. Can't quite put my finger on it.

    Gosh I remember that. Such a waste of potential.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obliviscaris.6937 said:

    @XenoSpyro.1780 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    First, I think people are taking Joko's trash talking way too seriously. ;)

    Especially, since the PC has an ace card that trumps Joko's "don't kill dragons" speech. Aurene.

    @Obliviscaris.6937 said:
    The moment my character turned down the Elonian wine from Zalambur at the casino meeting, I knew she was not well.

    kitten. If only we had a system in place that adjusted a characters personality or behavior based on your actions or choices. Can't quite put my finger on it.

    Gosh I remember that. Such a waste of potential.

    Indeed. I forget where, but I also mentioned that old system in some discussion about possibly giving players more story choices that - while ultimately not affecting the overall story events - still allowed players to develop the Commander's personality as they saw fit. Yet another bit of wasted potential, another system ANet does its best to ignore rather than capitalize on. That approach is slowly killing the game.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anninke.7469 said:
    You know what? I actually came to believe that this so called Wyld Hunt to kill dragons is a big fat LIE. I mean, the first WH starting your personal story was believable. But the dragon fighting? Come on, it was the Shadow of the Dragon we fought and I really think that the Pale Tree just covered the truth by making the incident into supposed dragon killing Wyld Hunt. And anything figured out in S2 is suspicious at least... (And just to be clear all this is my personal speculation and feelings, nothing I claim to be canonical or dev-intended.)

    The Pale Tree wasn't the one who said it meant fighting Zhaitan. It was Mender Serimon. Why would Serimon cover up a truth he didn't know?

    @Westenev.5289 said:
    The s5 ep1 boss fight makes me wonder what team the Human commander is rooting for. When Braham tries to confirm that the group won't listen to Jormag, every other comander imediately replies "right". The Human commander, on the other hand, hesitates.

    The Human commander has always seemed tired since Lws3 ep3, when Braham rejected them and the only one who stuck by the commander was Taimi. After that, it's just a conga line of tragedy that's kind of jaded the character.

    There's a pause for all of them.

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  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭

    "kitten. If only we had a system in place that adjusted a characters personality or behavior based on your actions or choices. Can't quite put my finger on it.3
    "Gosh I remember that. Such a waste of potential."

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Personality Here you go. Sad the system has been removed. I know I would like to play the bad guy following each time the worst decisions. And affecting the world around. At least there are a few objects and quests that allow me to kill pacific npcs, that's my only fun. Nah, not gonna say where!

    Shiny links, take a look!
    ->Ideas: Housing , Designing a new lounge , New GameMode
    ->Project: ASURAN/PRIMORDIUS EXPANSION available on WIKI.
    ->NEW: Crucible of Eternity path 4: Legacy on WIKI
    ->NEW Asurapedia

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @anninke.7469 said:
    You know what? I actually came to believe that this so called Wyld Hunt to kill dragons is a big fat LIE. I mean, the first WH starting your personal story was believable. But the dragon fighting? Come on, it was the Shadow of the Dragon we fought and I really think that the Pale Tree just covered the truth by making the incident into supposed dragon killing Wyld Hunt. And anything figured out in S2 is suspicious at least... (And just to be clear all this is my personal speculation and feelings, nothing I claim to be canonical or dev-intended.)

    The Pale Tree wasn't the one who said it meant fighting Zhaitan. It was Mender Serimon. Why would Serimon cover up a truth he didn't know?

    Oh yeah, he does talk about an early Wyld Hunt. I kinda totally forgot about him (shame, considering I talk to him pretty much every week. Sorry, Serimon). However he might have simply been misled by the PC speaking about the Dream calling upon to them to beat the threat in there. He's a mender, not a Wyld Hunt expert. And he doesn't even mention the Elder Dragon. Or any other dragon.

    What I had in mind happens at the end of the level 10 PS when the PC talks to the Pale Tree who says that yes, your Wyld Hunt is to fight the Elder Dragon. That's what I consider a lie from our dear Pale Mother. Ever since having met the Shadow of the Dragon in the flesh wood and bark. Or at least that's how my main sees it. Guess that's what happens when one gentle ranger soul goes from "all things have a right to grow" to "and now we kill, kill and kill some more for there's no other way".

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    All things...grow. And the blossom bothers the weed.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anninke.7469 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @anninke.7469 said:
    You know what? I actually came to believe that this so called Wyld Hunt to kill dragons is a big fat LIE. I mean, the first WH starting your personal story was believable. But the dragon fighting? Come on, it was the Shadow of the Dragon we fought and I really think that the Pale Tree just covered the truth by making the incident into supposed dragon killing Wyld Hunt. And anything figured out in S2 is suspicious at least... (And just to be clear all this is my personal speculation and feelings, nothing I claim to be canonical or dev-intended.)

    The Pale Tree wasn't the one who said it meant fighting Zhaitan. It was Mender Serimon. Why would Serimon cover up a truth he didn't know?

    Oh yeah, he does talk about an early Wyld Hunt. I kinda totally forgot about him (shame, considering I talk to him pretty much every week. Sorry, Serimon). However he might have simply been misled by the PC speaking about the Dream calling upon to them to beat the threat in there. He's a mender, not a Wyld Hunt expert. And he doesn't even mention the Elder Dragon. Or any other dragon.

    What I had in mind happens at the end of the level 10 PS when the PC talks to the Pale Tree who says that yes, your Wyld Hunt is to fight the Elder Dragon. That's what I consider a lie from our dear Pale Mother. Ever since having met the Shadow of the Dragon in the flesh wood and bark. Or at least that's how my main sees it. Guess that's what happens when one gentle ranger soul goes from "all things have a right to grow" to "and now we kill, kill and kill some more for there's no other way".

    To counter your argument further: At the end of the personal story, Caithe and the sylvari PC talk about completing the Wyld Hunt:

    Caithe: Congratulations, Commander. Our shared Wyld Hunt started together, so it's fitting that we end it together. We've more to do, but for now, rejoice: this victory will become part of the Dream.
    Sylvari Commander: Let's hope it inspires the next generation of sylvari.

    And during The World Summit in Season 2, Trahearne and the sylvari PC bring it up again, saying that it's returned with an extended task, to kill Mordremoth:

    Trahearne: The things we see in our Dream have a way of coming around. Your wyld hunt... Do you feel the call yet?
    Syvari Commander: I haven't for some time, but I feel it now. Is this a new one?
    Trahearne: It is the same one. You helped to destroy Zhaitan, but that did not complete your wyld hunt. The next phase is beginning.
    Syvari Commander: The Elder Dragons...Mordremoth.

    Taking it all in, and the Wyld Hunt seems to be to slay all Elder Dragons, Zhaitan was just the first.

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  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @anninke.7469 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @anninke.7469 said:
    You know what? I actually came to believe that this so called Wyld Hunt to kill dragons is a big fat LIE. I mean, the first WH starting your personal story was believable. But the dragon fighting? Come on, it was the Shadow of the Dragon we fought and I really think that the Pale Tree just covered the truth by making the incident into supposed dragon killing Wyld Hunt. And anything figured out in S2 is suspicious at least... (And just to be clear all this is my personal speculation and feelings, nothing I claim to be canonical or dev-intended.)

    The Pale Tree wasn't the one who said it meant fighting Zhaitan. It was Mender Serimon. Why would Serimon cover up a truth he didn't know?

    Oh yeah, he does talk about an early Wyld Hunt. I kinda totally forgot about him (shame, considering I talk to him pretty much every week. Sorry, Serimon). However he might have simply been misled by the PC speaking about the Dream calling upon to them to beat the threat in there. He's a mender, not a Wyld Hunt expert. And he doesn't even mention the Elder Dragon. Or any other dragon.

    What I had in mind happens at the end of the level 10 PS when the PC talks to the Pale Tree who says that yes, your Wyld Hunt is to fight the Elder Dragon. That's what I consider a lie from our dear Pale Mother. Ever since having met the Shadow of the Dragon in the flesh wood and bark. Or at least that's how my main sees it. Guess that's what happens when one gentle ranger soul goes from "all things have a right to grow" to "and now we kill, kill and kill some more for there's no other way".

    To counter your argument further: At the end of the personal story, Caithe and the sylvari PC talk about completing the Wyld Hunt:

    Caithe: Congratulations, Commander. Our shared Wyld Hunt started together, so it's fitting that we end it together. We've more to do, but for now, rejoice: this victory will become part of the Dream.
    Sylvari Commander: Let's hope it inspires the next generation of sylvari.

    And during The World Summit in Season 2, Trahearne and the sylvari PC bring it up again, saying that it's returned with an extended task, to kill Mordremoth:

    Trahearne: The things we see in our Dream have a way of coming around. Your wyld hunt... Do you feel the call yet?
    Syvari Commander: I haven't for some time, but I feel it now. Is this a new one?
    Trahearne: It is the same one. You helped to destroy Zhaitan, but that did not complete your wyld hunt. The next phase is beginning.
    Syvari Commander: The Elder Dragons...Mordremoth.

    Taking it all in, and the Wyld Hunt seems to be to slay all Elder Dragons, Zhaitan was just the first.

    Out of curiosity, has the Wyld Hunt been mentioned since then? I never got around to playing very far into the story with a Sylvari character. Would be interesting to know how Aurene fits into the "destroy Elder Dragons" Wyld Hunt.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Out of curiosity, has the Wyld Hunt been mentioned since then? I never got around to playing very far into the story with a Sylvari character. Would be interesting to know how Aurene fits into the "destroy Elder Dragons" Wyld Hunt.

    Nope, completely ignored throughout S3, PoF, and S4. Don't think there's been a mention of it in S5 yet. Technically it's also ignored in HoT too, like a few too many things from S2, like the Priory explorer trio.

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  • Batel.9206Batel.9206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Nope, completely ignored throughout S3, PoF, and S4. Don't think there's been a mention of it in S5 yet. Technically it's also ignored in HoT too, like a few too many things from S2, like the Priory explorer trio.

    Thank you. That's a question I've been wanting to have answered for a long while now (since, as I mentioned earlier, I haven't gotten all the way through the story yet)...I hope it's finally addressed at some point, but I won't keep my fingers crossed.

    Edit: Also, since I'm the one who originally asked "what happened to the sylvari PC's Wyld Hunt?" and got us all started chasing that rabbit trail, sorry for getting the thread so off-topic. :flushed:

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    It honestly wouldn't surprise me if ANet ends up going "the wyld hunt feeling to kill Mordremoth was actually Mordremoth trying to trick the Commander into coming after them so that he could turn them" or something. If Mordremoth believed he could convert the Pact Commander (which would be one hell of a feat if so), it would explain why Mordremoth would allow Faolain to guide them to the Heart of Thorns during Bitter Harvest.

    For non-sylvari, it would be changed to wanting to capture the Commander by bringing them into the heart of their domain with little backup so that the Commander could be overwhelmed, but he didn't expect the Pact to work their way through the Dragon's Stand lanes at the same time, distracting him of the Commander's progress.

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  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @anninke.7469 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @anninke.7469 said:
    You know what? I actually came to believe that this so called Wyld Hunt to kill dragons is a big fat LIE. I mean, the first WH starting your personal story was believable. But the dragon fighting? Come on, it was the Shadow of the Dragon we fought and I really think that the Pale Tree just covered the truth by making the incident into supposed dragon killing Wyld Hunt. And anything figured out in S2 is suspicious at least... (And just to be clear all this is my personal speculation and feelings, nothing I claim to be canonical or dev-intended.)

    The Pale Tree wasn't the one who said it meant fighting Zhaitan. It was Mender Serimon. Why would Serimon cover up a truth he didn't know?

    Oh yeah, he does talk about an early Wyld Hunt. I kinda totally forgot about him (shame, considering I talk to him pretty much every week. Sorry, Serimon). However he might have simply been misled by the PC speaking about the Dream calling upon to them to beat the threat in there. He's a mender, not a Wyld Hunt expert. And he doesn't even mention the Elder Dragon. Or any other dragon.

    What I had in mind happens at the end of the level 10 PS when the PC talks to the Pale Tree who says that yes, your Wyld Hunt is to fight the Elder Dragon. That's what I consider a lie from our dear Pale Mother. Ever since having met the Shadow of the Dragon in the flesh wood and bark. Or at least that's how my main sees it. Guess that's what happens when one gentle ranger soul goes from "all things have a right to grow" to "and now we kill, kill and kill some more for there's no other way".

    To counter your argument further: At the end of the personal story, Caithe and the sylvari PC talk about completing the Wyld Hunt:

    Caithe: Congratulations, Commander. Our shared Wyld Hunt started together, so it's fitting that we end it together. We've more to do, but for now, rejoice: this victory will become part of the Dream.
    Sylvari Commander: Let's hope it inspires the next generation of sylvari.

    And during The World Summit in Season 2, Trahearne and the sylvari PC bring it up again, saying that it's returned with an extended task, to kill Mordremoth:

    Trahearne: The things we see in our Dream have a way of coming around. Your wyld hunt... Do you feel the call yet?
    Syvari Commander: I haven't for some time, but I feel it now. Is this a new one?
    Trahearne: It is the same one. You helped to destroy Zhaitan, but that did not complete your wyld hunt. The next phase is beginning.
    Syvari Commander: The Elder Dragons...Mordremoth.

    Taking it all in, and the Wyld Hunt seems to be to slay all Elder Dragons, Zhaitan was just the first.

    TBH, Caithe saying whatever is not much trustworthy either in this particular case, the PC just doesn't know it yet at the end of PS. Still the "kill Zhaitan WH" is something that came from Mordremoth attacking the Dream. And retrospectively it felt like the PC got that one convenietly dumped on their head because they were there and to stop them from being too curious.

    However, maybe it would be more accurate to say that the percieved lie problem is not only about the Pale Tree but also (maybe even more) about the whole Dream. Over the years the two of them gradually lost credibility. I'm not really questioning what the PC's Wyld Hunt is (now), I'm questioning what it truly was supposed to be and how much it got intentionally twisted by... let's say good intentions at the beginning. And even if all the oh-so-noble Wyld Hunt stuff is just there to try and shut up/keep busy possible troublemakers.

    Last but not least - again, I don't claim that what I said is in any way objective, fact based or canonical. It's mostly how I feel my main toon feels about this stuff after years of running around saving the world in a way painfully incompatible with his initial view of life, while also blaming himself for failing to save his dearest friend and having to kill him.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anninke.7469 said:
    Still the "kill Zhaitan WH" is something that came from Mordremoth attacking the Dream.

    The Shadow of the Dragon was witnessed by many sylvari, and all sylvari who witness the Shadow of the Dragon have Wyld Hunts to fight any Elder Dragons' minions.

    The PC is the only one who saw the Shadow of the Dragon and got a Wyld Hunt to kill Zhaitan, but they're not the only sylvari to see it and get an Elder Dragon-related Wyld Hunt.

    The sylvari are a young race, yet they face challenges from within and without. A rare few sylvari have seen the shadows of the Elder Dragons in the Dream, warnings of the danger that menaces the awakened world. As a result, the sylvari perceive the global threat posed by the Elder Dragons more clearly than the other races. Undead minions of Zhaitan crawl from the Sea of Sorrows to despoil sylvari land with alarming frequency.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/sylvari/

    However, maybe it would be more accurate to say that the percieved lie problem is not only about the Pale Tree but also (maybe even more) about the whole Dream. Over the years the two of them gradually lost credibility. I'm not really questioning what the PC's Wyld Hunt is (now), I'm questioning what it truly was supposed to be and how much it got intentionally twisted by... let's say good intentions at the beginning. And even if all the oh-so-noble Wyld Hunt stuff is just there to try and shut up/keep busy possible troublemakers.

    If the Dream's intention was to prevent sylvari from finding out about their origins, then why would it outright tell Wynne about their origins? Besides, the Dream does actively send out many Wyld Hunts to counter every Elder Dragon and their minions, even Mordremoth; and as said, it [partially] does so via the Shadow of the Dragon.

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  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    The Shadow of the Dragon was witnessed by many sylvari, and all sylvari who witness the Shadow of the Dragon have Wyld Hunts to fight any Elder Dragons' minions.

    The PC is the only one who saw the Shadow of the Dragon and got a Wyld Hunt to kill Zhaitan, but they're not the only sylvari to see it and get an Elder Dragon-related Wyld Hunt.

    The sylvari are a young race, yet they face challenges from within and without. A rare few sylvari have seen the shadows of the Elder Dragons in the Dream, warnings of the danger that menaces the awakened world. As a result, the sylvari perceive the global threat posed by the Elder Dragons more clearly than the other races. Undead minions of Zhaitan crawl from the Sea of Sorrows to despoil sylvari land with alarming frequency.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/sylvari/

    Might be a cause of "shadows of the Elder Dragons" vs this particular Shadow of the Dragon who later makes its appearance with this exact name.

    However, maybe it would be more accurate to say that the percieved lie problem is not only about the Pale Tree but also (maybe even more) about the whole Dream. Over the years the two of them gradually lost credibility. I'm not really questioning what the PC's Wyld Hunt is (now), I'm questioning what it truly was supposed to be and how much it got intentionally twisted by... let's say good intentions at the beginning. And even if all the oh-so-noble Wyld Hunt stuff is just there to try and shut up/keep busy possible troublemakers.

    If the Dream's intention was to prevent sylvari from finding out about their origins, then why would it outright tell Wynne about their origins? Besides, the Dream does actively send out many Wyld Hunts to counter every Elder Dragon and their minions, even Mordremoth; and as said, it [partially] does so via the Shadow of the Dragon.

    That's one of the things not making sense with the Dream and the Pale Tree. The Dream wants the sylvari to know, so it tells Wynne. But still the sylvari don't get to know, because the Pale Tree and Wynne decide they shouldn't and Caithe plays along when she learns about it. But if the Dream really wanted them to know, why didn't it tell others? So was it really intended? Was telling Wynne an accidental slip? In that case, keeping it secret would make sense but can still feel like "I was lied to for years and look where it got me (and Trahearne)" for a sylvari PC. On the other hand, if the sylvari were supposed to know, why the heck did those three ladies keep it secret? And considering how the Pale Tree says that she's just a caretaker and that one shouldn't question the Dream, that feels even worse.

    Another thing is, the Shadow of the Dragon we fight in tutorial is hardly just "seen" or "shown by the Dream". After all, Caithe had to be sent there to help stop it and sending already awakened sylvari back doesn't seem to be very common occurence.

    The Dream actively giving anti-ED Wyld Hunts, even if generally useful, could still be just a way of keeping the restless busy. Because the Dreams motivations and goals are a complete mystery. (Unless the goal was getting rid of its boss and playing with the minions by it's own rules.)

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anninke.7469 said:
    That's one of the things not making sense with the Dream and the Pale Tree. The Dream wants the sylvari to know, so it tells Wynne. But still the sylvari don't get to know, because the Pale Tree and Wynne decide they shouldn't and Caithe plays along when she learns about it. But if the Dream really wanted them to know, why didn't it tell others? So was it really intended? Was telling Wynne an accidental slip? In that case, keeping it secret would make sense but can still feel like "I was lied to for years and look where it got me (and Trahearne)" for a sylvari PC. On the other hand, if the sylvari were supposed to know, why the heck did those three ladies keep it secret? And considering how the Pale Tree says that she's just a caretaker and that one shouldn't question the Dream, that feels even worse.

    Another thing is, the Shadow of the Dragon we fight in tutorial is hardly just "seen" or "shown by the Dream". After all, Caithe had to be sent there to help stop it and sending already awakened sylvari back doesn't seem to be very common occurence.

    The Dream actively giving anti-ED Wyld Hunts, even if generally useful, could still be just a way of keeping the restless busy. Because the Dreams motivations and goals are a complete mystery. (Unless the goal was getting rid of its boss and playing with the minions by it's own rules.)

    I think this is giving the Dream too much sentience.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @anninke.7469 said:
    That's one of the things not making sense with the Dream and the Pale Tree. The Dream wants the sylvari to know, so it tells Wynne. But still the sylvari don't get to know, because the Pale Tree and Wynne decide they shouldn't and Caithe plays along when she learns about it. But if the Dream really wanted them to know, why didn't it tell others? So was it really intended? Was telling Wynne an accidental slip? In that case, keeping it secret would make sense but can still feel like "I was lied to for years and look where it got me (and Trahearne)" for a sylvari PC. On the other hand, if the sylvari were supposed to know, why the heck did those three ladies keep it secret? And considering how the Pale Tree says that she's just a caretaker and that one shouldn't question the Dream, that feels even worse.

    Another thing is, the Shadow of the Dragon we fight in tutorial is hardly just "seen" or "shown by the Dream". After all, Caithe had to be sent there to help stop it and sending already awakened sylvari back doesn't seem to be very common occurence.

    The Dream actively giving anti-ED Wyld Hunts, even if generally useful, could still be just a way of keeping the restless busy. Because the Dreams motivations and goals are a complete mystery. (Unless the goal was getting rid of its boss and playing with the minions by it's own rules.)

    I think this is giving the Dream too much sentience.

    Even sapience actually. After all, if there's an entity deciding what I should do with my life, I'd rather it was a sapient one.
    And what if the purified Mordy's champion is not the Pale Tree, but the Dream? You know, mind dragon - mind champion.

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    All things...grow. And the blossom bothers the weed.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    @anninke.7469 said:
    That's one of the things not making sense with the Dream and the Pale Tree. The Dream wants the sylvari to know, so it tells Wynne. But still the sylvari don't get to know, because the Pale Tree and Wynne decide they shouldn't and Caithe plays along when she learns about it. But if the Dream really wanted them to know, why didn't it tell others? So was it really intended? Was telling Wynne an accidental slip? In that case, keeping it secret would make sense but can still feel like "I was lied to for years and look where it got me (and Trahearne)" for a sylvari PC. On the other hand, if the sylvari were supposed to know, why the heck did those three ladies keep it secret? And considering how the Pale Tree says that she's just a caretaker and that one shouldn't question the Dream, that feels even worse.

    I would theorize that the Dream wanted to ensure that there was discussion on the course of action between the Pale Tree and sylvari, which happened. It was eventually found out before the end of Season 2, albeit only by Scarlet, who decided to keep quiet as well (while she was still in control of herself and wanting to confront Mordremoth, likely because she knew of the chaos it would cause that would hinder fighting Mordremoth, while after succumbing to Mordremoth, to serve Mordremoth's plan).

    @anninke.7469 said:
    Another thing is, the Shadow of the Dragon we fight in tutorial is hardly just "seen" or "shown by the Dream". After all, Caithe had to be sent there to help stop it and sending already awakened sylvari back doesn't seem to be very common occurence.

    Well, Caithe being sent in was done by the Pale Tree.

    @anninke.7469 said:
    The Dream actively giving anti-ED Wyld Hunts, even if generally useful, could still be just a way of keeping the restless busy. Because the Dreams motivations and goals are a complete mystery. (Unless the goal was getting rid of its boss and playing with the minions by it's own rules.)

    Mordremoth doesn't control the Dream, that's made clear with HoT. Mordremoth, the Dream, and Nightmare are three separate entities. Like the Pale Tree and White Stag, Mordremoth merely has a strong connection to the Dream and can "hijack" its channels.

    @anninke.7469 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I think this is giving the Dream too much sentience.

    Even sapience actually. After all, if there's an entity deciding what I should do with my life, I'd rather it was a sapient one.
    And what if the purified Mordy's champion is not the Pale Tree, but the Dream? You know, mind dragon - mind champion.

    Hard to say if it's "too much", since we have far too little knowledge of the Dream of Dreams. It does seem to have some degree of sentience though, given that it is what gives out Wyld Hunts - same for the Nightmare, which gives out Dark Hunts - and these Hunts seem to be working towards and overarching something (that something for Nightmare seems to be its spread over the Dream).

    My theory of what the Dream and Nightmare are goes to this line by the Pale Tree:

    Avatar of the Tree: The soul of Tyria mourned as her children were cut down by the beast. The land wept, and the world shuddered.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness

    If her line is meant to take even partially literal, how would she know what the "soul of Tyria" felt or how it reacted? Throughout that story instance, the Pale Tree seems to show a fairly high association with the "feelings of the lands", so to speak, which makes me think the Dream and Nightmare may be the... sentience of Tyria, so to speak.

    This goes a bit in line with Scarlet's rendition of The All, which draws the Pale Tree in the center - what if the center isn't meant to be the Pale Tree, but what the Pale Tree has access to: the Dream of Dreams. This also explains the vision of Omadd's Machine where we go through the Pale Tree to witness the All - that is, since we're following Scarlet's path/vision from when she was in Omadd's Machien, we're using the Pale Tree's connection of the Dream to witness the soul of Tyria, that is the heart of The All.

    That's my theory at least. If it holds any water, we'll be returning to the topic of the Dream and Nightmare soon(tm) as we delve deeper into the histories and natures of the Elder Dragons.

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    If her line is meant to take even partially literal, how would she know what the "soul of Tyria" felt or how it reacted? Throughout that story instance, the Pale Tree seems to show a fairly high association with the "feelings of the lands", so to speak, which makes me think the Dream and Nightmare may be the... sentience of Tyria, so to speak.

    This goes a bit in line with Scarlet's rendition of The All, which draws the Pale Tree in the center - what if the center isn't meant to be the Pale Tree, but what the Pale Tree has access to: the Dream of Dreams. This also explains the vision of Omadd's Machine where we go through the Pale Tree to witness the All - that is, since we're following Scarlet's path/vision from when she was in Omadd's Machien, we're using the Pale Tree's connection of the Dream to witness the soul of Tyria, that is the heart of The All.

    That's my theory at least. If it holds any water, we'll be returning to the topic of the Dream and Nightmare soon(tm) as we delve deeper into the histories and natures of the Elder Dragons.

    Well, we agree on one thing at least. The Dream being some sort of magical collective (sub)conscious of the planet is one of the most suitable answers to what the Dream is.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @anninke.7469 said:
    That's one of the things not making sense with the Dream and the Pale Tree. The Dream wants the sylvari to know, so it tells Wynne. But still the sylvari don't get to know, because the Pale Tree and Wynne decide they shouldn't and Caithe plays along when she learns about it. But if the Dream really wanted them to know, why didn't it tell others? So was it really intended? Was telling Wynne an accidental slip? In that case, keeping it secret would make sense but can still feel like "I was lied to for years and look where it got me (and Trahearne)" for a sylvari PC. On the other hand, if the sylvari were supposed to know, why the heck did those three ladies keep it secret? And considering how the Pale Tree says that she's just a caretaker and that one shouldn't question the Dream, that feels even worse.

    I would theorize that the Dream wanted to ensure that there was discussion on the course of action between the Pale Tree and sylvari, which happened. It was eventually found out before the end of Season 2, albeit only by Scarlet, who decided to keep quiet as well (while she was still in control of herself and wanting to confront Mordremoth, likely because she knew of the chaos it would cause that would hinder fighting Mordremoth, while after succumbing to Mordremoth, to serve Mordremoth's plan).

    Might as well be the case, the alternative can be seen if you watch from the outside. Being in a thread about the Commander's psyche, I took the liberty to use my PC's headcanoned viewpoint on being dragged into the unpleasant events this caused and all the other stuff afterwards.

    @anninke.7469 said:
    Another thing is, the Shadow of the Dragon we fight in tutorial is hardly just "seen" or "shown by the Dream". After all, Caithe had to be sent there to help stop it and sending already awakened sylvari back doesn't seem to be very common occurence.

    Well, Caithe being sent in was done by the Pale Tree.

    This doesn't turn the very real attack on the Dream from the outside into a common Wyld Hunt sign, imo. Especially if the Pale Tree (knows) sends in specifically Caithe (knows too).

    What I'm trying to say is it looks like the PC fighing the Shadow of the Dragon wasn't a vision/symbol of their Wyld Hunt, but they were given the ED Wyld Hunt because they got to fight the Shadow of the Dragon in the Dream, which had to be explained without revealing the truth about Mordremoth (too soon).

    @anninke.7469 said:
    The Dream actively giving anti-ED Wyld Hunts, even if generally useful, could still be just a way of keeping the restless busy. Because the Dreams motivations and goals are a complete mystery. (Unless the goal was getting rid of its boss and playing with the minions by it's own rules.)

    Mordremoth doesn't control the Dream, that's made clear with HoT. Mordremoth, the Dream, and Nightmare are three separate entities. Like the Pale Tree and White Stag, Mordremoth merely has a strong connection to the Dream and can "hijack" its channels.

    I don't claim it does. This is based on my probably slightly tinfoil-hat-ish theory that the Dream might be the purified dragon champion instead of the Pale Tree and it might want to get rid of it's former boss for good. Also, I think that the Dream and the Nightmare are not necessarily separate entities but more of a split-personality thing where one side refuses to accept and deal with traits represented by the other. Still not sure where to put the Pale Tree, though. The White Stag is... well, it's still waiting right next to my new kitchen's butcher table. How convenient...

    @anninke.7469 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I think this is giving the Dream too much sentience.

    Even sapience actually. After all, if there's an entity deciding what I should do with my life, I'd rather it was a sapient one.
    And what if the purified Mordy's champion is not the Pale Tree, but the Dream? You know, mind dragon - mind champion.

    Hard to say if it's "too much", since we have far too little knowledge of the Dream of Dreams. It does seem to have some degree of sentience though, given that it is what gives out Wyld Hunts - same for the Nightmare, which gives out Dark Hunts - and these Hunts seem to be working towards and overarching something (that something for Nightmare seems to be its spread over the Dream).

    My theory of what the Dream and Nightmare are goes to this line by the Pale Tree:

    Avatar of the Tree: The soul of Tyria mourned as her children were cut down by the beast. The land wept, and the world shuddered.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness

    If her line is meant to take even partially literal, how would she know what the "soul of Tyria" felt or how it reacted? Throughout that story instance, the Pale Tree seems to show a fairly high association with the "feelings of the lands", so to speak, which makes me think the Dream and Nightmare may be the... sentience of Tyria, so to speak.

    This goes a bit in line with Scarlet's rendition of The All, which draws the Pale Tree in the center - what if the center isn't meant to be the Pale Tree, but what the Pale Tree has access to: the Dream of Dreams. This also explains the vision of Omadd's Machine where we go through the Pale Tree to witness the All - that is, since we're following Scarlet's path/vision from when she was in Omadd's Machien, we're using the Pale Tree's connection of the Dream to witness the soul of Tyria, that is the heart of The All.

    To be honest, I find this Pale Tree's line so over-dramatic that I didn't even consider taking it into account... Look who's a nasty cynical kitten, I guess :)

    However, if the Dream of Dreams is really meant to be what you think it may be, then we should definitely get more sings pointing to it so it's not just another hinted but never really used and then completely forgotten thing.

    That's my theory at least. If it holds any water, we'll be returning to the topic of the Dream and Nightmare soon(tm) as we delve deeper into the histories and natures of the Elder Dragons.

    Yes, that would be awesome. I really hope it happens. Just maybe a little sooner than soon (TM).

    Edit: Oh my, I totally didn't expect the word for an ugly witch to be kittenified...

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    All things...grow. And the blossom bothers the weed.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As a male norn commander, I almost feel as though my norn is at that stage that he wants a "Good death". His legend is vast, but how can he end it? He cant let some random guy with a knife do it, and he can't let the dragons do it or the gods. At this stage .... it might just be that he is living so his legend can find a good end, whether better or worse, violent or not.

    I imagine at the end he will sit down, and laugh especially if guild wars 2 ends with him being a live.