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The Commander's Psyche, an open question.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @anninke.7469 said:
    This doesn't turn the very real attack on the Dream from the outside into a common Wyld Hunt sign, imo. Especially if the Pale Tree (knows) sends in specifically Caithe (knows too).

    What I'm trying to say is it looks like the PC fighing the Shadow of the Dragon wasn't a vision/symbol of their Wyld Hunt, but they were given the ED Wyld Hunt because they got to fight the Shadow of the Dragon in the Dream, which had to be explained without revealing the truth about Mordremoth (too soon).

    Entirely possible, but it should be kept in mind that the Dream and Nightmare do reflect the world of Tyria with what's in it (as we can see, there's even risen in the instance), and in A Light in the Darkness, there are even risen which can attack the player in a very similar manner to the Shadow of the Dragon.

    So even if it's "a Wyld Hunt born from an encounter and not from a vision" - which I'd agree with, btw - that doesn't mean the encounter was Mordremoth's doing. It could still be true that it was the Nightmare's doing - maybe the Shadow of the Dragon became a slave to Mordremoth later, or the Shadow of the Dragon fought in Tyria was a copy of the one in the Dream (creating copies is Mordremoth's MO after all).

    @anninke.7469 said:
    The Dream actively giving anti-ED Wyld Hunts, even if generally useful, could still be just a way of keeping the restless busy. Because the Dreams motivations and goals are a complete mystery. (Unless the goal was getting rid of its boss and playing with the minions by it's own rules.)

    Mordremoth doesn't control the Dream, that's made clear with HoT. Mordremoth, the Dream, and Nightmare are three separate entities. Like the Pale Tree and White Stag, Mordremoth merely has a strong connection to the Dream and can "hijack" its channels.

    I don't claim it does. This is based on my probably slightly tinfoil-hat-ish theory that the Dream might be the purified dragon champion instead of the Pale Tree and it might want to get rid of it's former boss for good. Also, I think that the Dream and the Nightmare are not necessarily separate entities but more of a split-personality thing where one side refuses to accept and deal with traits represented by the other. Still not sure where to put the Pale Tree, though. The White Stag is... well, it's still waiting right next to my new kitchen's butcher table. How convenient...

    Was kind of referencing that "its boss" bit. If Mordremoth didn't control the Dream, it probably didn't create it either, so Mordremoth wouldn't be "its boss" - neglected or served or otherwise.

    To be honest, I find this Pale Tree's line so over-dramatic that I didn't even consider taking it into account... Look who's a nasty cynical kitten, I guess :)

    However, if the Dream of Dreams is really meant to be what you think it may be, then we should definitely get more sings pointing to it so it's not just another hinted but never really used and then completely forgotten thing.

    I think the hints have already been placed that the Dream is more relevant than outright shown:

    Vigil Crusader: The whispers here...they remind me of something I read about sylvari Wyld Hunts.
    Vigil Tactician: As opposed to the hundreds of creatures we've had to fight literally everywhere else?
    Vigil Crusader: It's not so much a voice, but a calling.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bjora_Marches/Vigil_patrol

    Sylvari Pact Commander: Reminds me of Mordremoth...but different.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/What's_Left_Behind

    Comparisons made to Mordremoth and the Wyld Hunts, when Jormag's whispers are centuries old and not born from Mordremoth's magic.

    And I've always been curious about the having lines like this:

    Champion Fallen Leopard Shaman: Join the dream... Sleep...

    The constant talk in Bjora - especially the first map - about rest, sleep, and dreaming has been an odd choice to me, especially when "the dream" is singularized. Why "join the dream" and not "join your dreams" or "join the dreams" etc. Why would corrupted souls of the dead talk about sleeping and dreaming?

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @anninke.7469 said:
    This doesn't turn the very real attack on the Dream from the outside into a common Wyld Hunt sign, imo. Especially if the Pale Tree (knows) sends in specifically Caithe (knows too).

    What I'm trying to say is it looks like the PC fighing the Shadow of the Dragon wasn't a vision/symbol of their Wyld Hunt, but they were given the ED Wyld Hunt because they got to fight the Shadow of the Dragon in the Dream, which had to be explained without revealing the truth about Mordremoth (too soon).

    Entirely possible, but it should be kept in mind that the Dream and Nightmare do reflect the world of Tyria with what's in it (as we can see, there's even risen in the instance), and in A Light in the Darkness, there are even risen which can attack the player in a very similar manner to the Shadow of the Dragon.

    So even if it's "a Wyld Hunt born from an encounter and not from a vision" - which I'd agree with, btw - that doesn't mean the encounter was Mordremoth's doing. It could still be true that it was the Nightmare's doing - maybe the Shadow of the Dragon became a slave to Mordremoth later, or the Shadow of the Dragon fought in Tyria was a copy of the one in the Dream (creating copies is Mordremoth's MO after all).

    Yeah, it could actually be like this.

    @anninke.7469 said:
    The Dream actively giving anti-ED Wyld Hunts, even if generally useful, could still be just a way of keeping the restless busy. Because the Dreams motivations and goals are a complete mystery. (Unless the goal was getting rid of its boss and playing with the minions by it's own rules.)

    Mordremoth doesn't control the Dream, that's made clear with HoT. Mordremoth, the Dream, and Nightmare are three separate entities. Like the Pale Tree and White Stag, Mordremoth merely has a strong connection to the Dream and can "hijack" its channels.

    I don't claim it does. This is based on my probably slightly tinfoil-hat-ish theory that the Dream might be the purified dragon champion instead of the Pale Tree and it might want to get rid of it's former boss for good. Also, I think that the Dream and the Nightmare are not necessarily separate entities but more of a split-personality thing where one side refuses to accept and deal with traits represented by the other. Still not sure where to put the Pale Tree, though. The White Stag is... well, it's still waiting right next to my new kitchen's butcher table. How convenient...

    Was kind of referencing that "its boss" bit. If Mordremoth didn't control the Dream, it probably didn't create it either, so Mordremoth wouldn't be "its boss" - neglected or served or otherwise.

    Me too.
    Even you say "probably didn't create" and if it did, then he would have been the boss. So I think I'll hold on to my little heresy for now :)

    To be honest, I find this Pale Tree's line so over-dramatic that I didn't even consider taking it into account... Look who's a nasty cynical kitten, I guess :)

    However, if the Dream of Dreams is really meant to be what you think it may be, then we should definitely get more sings pointing to it so it's not just another hinted but never really used and then completely forgotten thing.

    I think the hints have already been placed that the Dream is more relevant than outright shown:

    Vigil Crusader: The whispers here...they remind me of something I read about sylvari Wyld Hunts.
    Vigil Tactician: As opposed to the hundreds of creatures we've had to fight literally everywhere else?
    Vigil Crusader: It's not so much a voice, but a calling.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bjora_Marches/Vigil_patrol

    Sylvari Pact Commander: Reminds me of Mordremoth...but different.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/What's_Left_Behind

    Comparisons made to Mordremoth and the Wyld Hunts, when Jormag's whispers are centuries old and not born from Mordremoth's magic.

    Interesting point. I admit I didn't think of that. However, the similarity might be just that. Or maybe not.

    And I've always been curious about the having lines like this:

    Champion Fallen Leopard Shaman: Join the dream... Sleep...

    The constant talk in Bjora - especially the first map - about rest, sleep, and dreaming has been an odd choice to me, especially when "the dream" is singularized. Why "join the dream" and not "join your dreams" or "join the dreams" etc. Why would corrupted souls of the dead talk about sleeping and dreaming?

    Yes! I'm intrigued by those lines too. The Fallen Leopard Shaman sends shivers down my spine every time I hear him. It just feels so ominous and wrong when playing a sylvari.

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    All things...grow. And the blossom bothers the weed.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • I would like to comment that I am enjoying how far down the rabbit hole this thread is going. While the original question was regarding the Commander's Psyche, I find that having this topic open up the rabbit hole and allowing people to deep dive into a psychological discussion of the lore... to be quite refreshing. Kudos!