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  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Core Necromancer still has the problems that made it bad for instanced PvE in 2012.
    1. Death Shroud is designed for 1v1 power build support so it has low value on any condi dps build but stronger on low-cleave power builds, which are bad on large hit box bosses. Core Necro has a lot of low-damage area-denial and can 1v1 but is very bad versus bosses. Points 2 and 3 help explain.
    2. Core has very low cleave dps (power or condi), not just a little low but very low, and has poor group utility without barrier or other buffs to make up for it. Running core Necro in instanced group PvE is asking to be carried. It is only viable if squads become happy to carry even top-skilled Core Necro's who do not want to switch to a meta prof/spec for whatever reason.
    3. Indomitable/Defiant is a direct, hard-counter to most of core Necro's soft-CC condi output. Only scepter's auto attack chain has any significant damage output and Epidemic bouncing is dead. This is an 8 year old problem and, therefore, must be exceedingly difficult to fix.

    Scourge is kind of like a Druid that was nerfed even harder. It has limited use in instanced PvE because of that and is why I suggested a trait to swap between barrier and dps would be nice. Scourge's condi dps in PvE was nerfed severely from PoF release before PvP and WvW balancing was separated from PvE so right now Scourge dps is what makes barrier-slave Scourge competitive in instanced PvE. That restricts Scourge to a specific squad slot and build. If it had a way to "turn off" barrier sharing and increase dps, Scourge could switch to a condi-dps build with condi-cleave like Reaper has with power cleave. Right now, swapping to power-Reaper via build templates is the only way to stay with the profession and be acceptable in a dps slot.

    In contrast, core Necro may not be meta in WvW like it was before Scourge replaced it and the expansion's other elites were added but it still has fair value.

    Also, Core Necro actually gained sustain in PvP with damage being removed from control effect skills making core shroud strong enough to need solid nerfing.

    Finally, core Necro is fine in open world PvE where taking a long time to solo a boss allows other players time to join. It is only in instanced PvE where core is so bad that using it at all is stubbornly asking the group to carry you and I hate seeing any profession in that state.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    Core Necromancer still has the problems that made it bad for instanced PvE in 2012.
    1. Death Shroud is designed for 1v1 power build support so it has low value on any condi dps build but stronger on low-cleave power builds, which are bad on large hit box bosses. Core Necro has a lot of low-damage area-denial and can 1v1 but is very bad versus bosses. Points 2 and 3 help explain.

    Agreed, though it was worse in 2012 its still quite a problem. To your points here I'll address them one by one. Death shroud in itself seems to be minor pressure as it buys time in 1v1. And the lower the overall damage in PvP the better it does. None of the skills in shroud are particularly noteworthy. Considering how much the necromancer's kit is loaded into shroud and how poorly shroud is balanced, it leaves it wanting in other formats where its mechanical design hampers it more than helps.

    1. Core has very low cleave dps (power or condi), not just a little low but very low, and has poor group utility without barrier or other buffs to make up for it. Running core Necro in instanced group PvE is asking to be carried. It is only viable if squads become happy to carry even top-skilled Core Necro's who do not want to switch to a meta prof/spec for whatever reason.

    Agreed. Although I don't personally feel cleave is that big of an issue since classes can have low cleave DPS or next to none and do incredibly well. Deadeye has quite a bit of utility beyond cleaving and can hit quite hard. The bigger issue is how little support the necromancer provides at its baseline due to how heavily they're loaded into death shroud which seems tuned to fight a very very narrow niche.

    1. Indomitable/Defiant is a direct, hard-counter to most of core Necro's soft-CC condi output. Only scepter's auto attack chain has any significant damage output and Epidemic bouncing is dead. This is an 8 year old problem and, therefore, must be exceedingly difficult to fix.

    I think there are other means to solve the issue, though I wont argue with its difficulty. I think the big issue is that what the necromancer does well is hyper limited while other classes do what necromancer does but better. Baring resing allies and applying barrier. Which I'd argue narrow their scope far beyond what is normal for the existing professions.

    I'd argue their biggest issue is their lack of baseline support. Why doesn't Blood is power for example give both might and Fury to allies? Why just a highly common Boon but not one that is a bit more rare? Or why doesn't it just deal far more damage? Its a odd skill I'd say should be support yet isn't. Why does Necromancer have to dodge with blood magic to grant regeneration when there is nothing in their design that benefits from dodge beside that singular minor trait? Why is it that Signet of Vampirism is so difficult to use and outclassed by a relatively spammable elite on Renegade? Why doesn't staff apply more support than just regen as long as a foe is right on top of the party? Why is it that the scourge is given such high concentration for their minor and only might to really take advantage of it? At that point why have the concentration why not just turn it to healing power?

    But perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself.

    Scourge is kind of like a Druid that was nerfed even harder. It has limited use in instanced PvE because of that and is why I suggested a trait to swap between barrier and dps would be nice. Scourge's condi dps in PvE was nerfed severely from PoF release before PvP and WvW balancing was separated from PvE so right now Scourge dps is what makes barrier-slave Scourge competitive in instanced PvE. That restricts Scourge to a specific squad slot and build. If it had a way to "turn off" barrier sharing and increase dps, Scourge could switch to a condi-dps build with condi-cleave like Reaper has with power cleave. Right now, swapping to power-Reaper via build templates is the only way to stay with the profession and be acceptable in a dps slot.

    In contrast, core Necro may not be meta in WvW like it was before Scourge replaced it and the expansion's other elites were added but it still has fair value.

    Also, Core Necro actually gained sustain in PvP with damage being removed from control effect skills making core shroud strong enough to need solid nerfing.

    Finally, core Necro is fine in open world PvE where taking a long time to solo a boss allows other players time to join. It is only in instanced PvE where core is so bad that using it at all is stubbornly asking the group to carry you and I hate seeing any profession in that state.

    I personally don't think Scourge does enough on either side of its spectrum. Either for support of for DPS. As I sorta explained above. To me it looks like an issue of the core as well as the elite spec. There's a lot of wasted potential in the necromancer And I personally would sacrifice barrier and death shroud in favor of more DPS and party utility.

    As for your point on Core necromancer in open world, I don't take that as a good argument on either side. From my subjective opinion core necromancer is incredibly boring to play. And the builds it offers for new players have little to no translation into how the two elite specs play in PvE. This to me even makes the transition a rocky one and could be a source of conflict for new players as they attempt to transition into the high end content.

    As for some suggestions I've made, I've done quite a few. If you want to see them I can post a few, I talk at length about a lot of issues with the game, some of my opinions are controversial as I'm aware.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/117391/death-shroud-suggestions#latest
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/117073/reaper-suggestions#latest
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/117789/scourge-suggestions#latest

    As a note to this. I don't necessarily stand by every suggestion I've made in these. As my opinions and perspective is subject to change and evolve and these are a bit old as far as posts go.

    I do have further perspectives On the PvE issue I've been contemplating though these are just fledgling ideas and not set in stone. Such as the idea of an Aggro system which i've talked about before on the forums but haven't made an official post on due to its complexity and my uncertain position with it. I'm leaning toward it being a good idea for PvE as I do feel the function and behavior of NPCs is so drastically different from PvP that unique balance taking place in PvE is probably the correct path, though I wont debate that today. Another concept I had was unique behavior of NPCs. One such example is the Seekers in the Vale guardian fight. You can knock them back with Druid but applying fear almost just immobilizes them. This further harms the control function of fear which is notoriously poor in PvE and I'd suggest a behavioral function for these seekers to trigger on being feared to flee the player at at least a player's Running pace as opposed to going as slow as they do. But that's just one example.

    I've been dragged back into this conversation and not by you, I just wanted to expand on what you were saying with my own perspective.