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  • @Axl.8924 said:

    @Agri

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    It's been FAR too long they did a real balance pass. In my opinion I don't even care anymore what they change, knowing ANet it could go all directions, but the frequency of pushing balance updates in this game is really REALLY low! It also gives the wrong impression imo, as the only MMORPG's that don't do frequent balance passes are the ones that are on life support. Is GW2 on life support? I surely hope not!

    If you really want to know what I find the most distressing part of the balance in the PvE endgame, sure the terrible state of the Necro is very high on the list, but the absolute worst is actually about boons! And especially Quickness and Alacrity, obviously. The (class) distribution on them, the importance of having high uptime on them, etc. it's just really unbalanced!

    Did you know GW2 is actually worse about that? in pve in WOW even if sometimes it takes months they tend to rotate classes as fotm even if i dislike that idea and think they shouldn't, they never had a class that was bottom for years non stop since almost the beginning, which is seriously busted. Then again, if it was blizzard knowing the way they are now, they woulda nerfed all casters dumbed down all classes and call it a day add microtransactions or something.

    Also i personally disagree with you on something agrippa: I don't think necros should have lots of access to certain kinds of boons such as alacricity and quickness, thats a mesmer thing. Necromancers were never about giving those and i don't know what kinda buffs they gave in GW1 but personally i think nec should do protection barrier maybe might as boons regen that kinda stuff.

    I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that Quickness and Alacrity and the importance of them in gamemodes like the PvE endgame is too overpowered. How to fix that ... well that's a whole different discussion. I would actually look into more graded versions of the boons. Like a stacking effect (similar to might, but different increments), and I would make them a lot more widely available across all classes.
    OR leave the distribution as it is, but nerf the boons. Still make them stacking, but generally nerfed!
    Anyway, the how is not even that important imo, I'm even getting to a point where the what is not even important. The when is for me the most important. When do they come with new balance updates, it's ridiculous how long they take in this game!

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Agri

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    It's been FAR too long they did a real balance pass. In my opinion I don't even care anymore what they change, knowing ANet it could go all directions, but the frequency of pushing balance updates in this game is really REALLY low! It also gives the wrong impression imo, as the only MMORPG's that don't do frequent balance passes are the ones that are on life support. Is GW2 on life support? I surely hope not!

    If you really want to know what I find the most distressing part of the balance in the PvE endgame, sure the terrible state of the Necro is very high on the list, but the absolute worst is actually about boons! And especially Quickness and Alacrity, obviously. The (class) distribution on them, the importance of having high uptime on them, etc. it's just really unbalanced!

    Did you know GW2 is actually worse about that? in pve in WOW even if sometimes it takes months they tend to rotate classes as fotm even if i dislike that idea and think they shouldn't, they never had a class that was bottom for years non stop since almost the beginning, which is seriously busted. Then again, if it was blizzard knowing the way they are now, they woulda nerfed all casters dumbed down all classes and call it a day add microtransactions or something.

    Also i personally disagree with you on something agrippa: I don't think necros should have lots of access to certain kinds of boons such as alacricity and quickness, thats a mesmer thing. Necromancers were never about giving those and i don't know what kinda buffs they gave in GW1 but personally i think nec should do protection barrier maybe might as boons regen that kinda stuff.

    I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that Quickness and Alacrity and the importance of them in gamemodes like the PvE endgame is too overpowered. How to fix that ... well that's a whole different discussion. I would actually look into more graded versions of the boons. Like a stacking effect (similar to might, but different increments), and I would make them a lot more widely available across all classes.
    OR leave the distribution as it is, but nerf the boons. Still make them stacking, but generally nerfed!
    Anyway, the how is not even that important imo, I'm even getting to a point where the what is not even important. The when is for me the most important. When do they come with new balance updates, it's ridiculous how long they take in this game!

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Agri

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    It's been FAR too long they did a real balance pass. In my opinion I don't even care anymore what they change, knowing ANet it could go all directions, but the frequency of pushing balance updates in this game is really REALLY low! It also gives the wrong impression imo, as the only MMORPG's that don't do frequent balance passes are the ones that are on life support. Is GW2 on life support? I surely hope not!

    If you really want to know what I find the most distressing part of the balance in the PvE endgame, sure the terrible state of the Necro is very high on the list, but the absolute worst is actually about boons! And especially Quickness and Alacrity, obviously. The (class) distribution on them, the importance of having high uptime on them, etc. it's just really unbalanced!

    Did you know GW2 is actually worse about that? in pve in WOW even if sometimes it takes months they tend to rotate classes as fotm even if i dislike that idea and think they shouldn't, they never had a class that was bottom for years non stop since almost the beginning, which is seriously busted. Then again, if it was blizzard knowing the way they are now, they woulda nerfed all casters dumbed down all classes and call it a day add microtransactions or something.

    Also i personally disagree with you on something agrippa: I don't think necros should have lots of access to certain kinds of boons such as alacricity and quickness, thats a mesmer thing. Necromancers were never about giving those and i don't know what kinda buffs they gave in GW1 but personally i think nec should do protection barrier maybe might as boons regen that kinda stuff.

    I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that Quickness and Alacrity and the importance of them in gamemodes like the PvE endgame is too overpowered. How to fix that ... well that's a whole different discussion. I would actually look into more graded versions of the boons. Like a stacking effect (similar to might, but different increments), and I would make them a lot more widely available across all classes.
    OR leave the distribution as it is, but nerf the boons. Still make them stacking, but generally nerfed!
    Anyway, the how is not even that important imo, I'm even getting to a point where the what is not even important. The when is for me the most important. When do they come with new balance updates, it's ridiculous how long they take in this game!

    Personally i dislike the over dependence on quickness for nec. I would prefer if the speed of our attacks was flat on our slowest one and quickness and alacricity was limited rather than deleted.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I am just still waiting on part 2 of this update where they go in and remove the blanket nerf to passive skills and hard cc skill that do vary from each other. If we get one we should know about it by this Tuesday. The last big update this time of year was feb 27 this year it would be feb 23? i guess.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

    Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want.

    It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs.

    Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want.

    It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro.

    That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices you make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful.

    Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ...

    Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to any game discussion, really!

    This is why you need proper balance in pve.

    Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those.

    These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role.

    I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer.

    To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format.

    The difference in dps between the classes isn't stopping new players form entering the raiding format, not sure what that random claim is, but that's just not true.

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

    Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want.

    It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs.

    Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want.

    It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro.

    That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices you make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful.

    please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ...

    But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out.

    Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @Obtena.7952 and you (= @Sobx.1758 ) (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with any class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of life, isn't it?

    Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on how we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure!

    Oh, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't bring any less to the discussion than your (= @Agrippa Oculus.3726 ), @Axl.8924 or @Lily.1935's made up arguments about classes being unusable(/not worth using) if they're not the best at something OR necro somehow being something that's stopping people from entering raids. If what we're saying doesn't add anything then neither any of these (on top of them simply not even being true), but you don't mind that because it pushes your "buff my class" request.

    Well, these people you're talking about actually come with real numbers, statistics and benchmarks which you can find on several websites (from snowcrows to discretize to even in the older days: gw2raidar!), yours ... well where is your proof? In numbers I mean? Not just the hunch you have, or the anecdotal: this one time .... stories.

    "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It would be relevant if I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while proving something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)?

    I don't care what you are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about balance!
    Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign 101/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not!

    Yup and balance!

    No it doesn't! Let me bring your argumentation to its extreme, and then you hopefully figure out that it doesn't have to do anything with balance. What if ANet would design a class tomorrow that literally can't do anything except for standing in a corner. It has a max of 0 DPS, 0 HPS, 0% support, no mobility, etc. It can only stand in a corner, and can die ... really quickly. With your flawless argumentation, you'd say that would still be balanced, cause you can 9-man raids! That you can complete raids anyway you like and with any class you like has nothing to do with balance! It's that simple.

    Wow, nice strawman you've got there. You can keep trying to "bring my argumentation to its extreme" all you want, but it has nothing to do with what I've said. You can literally fill dps spots with necros and still easly complete most/all raids. Your EXTREME! example has nothing to do with what is being said in this thread

    Exactly, it has nothing to do with this thread, and so is your argumentation that:

    You can literally fill dps spots with necros and still easly complete most/all raids.

    It has nothing to do with this thread! Because it has nothing to do with balance!!!
    And now that's confirmed, let's talk about balance:

    Sure, I want more frequent balance patches too

    I wholeheartedly agree with you!

    but it's irrelevant to suddenly bring it up now in this comment chain and pretend it was EVER part of it.

    Why? This thread is about balance updates. Why can't I bring it back on-topic (it was actually going really off-topic: with people going on and on about things that has nothing to do with balance) and in this case mention the frequency of balance updates as of late? Which again, is imo the most troubling issue of the whole balance system in this game. Definitely as of late! For me, it's the elephant in the room. It's been FAR too long since a real balance update has hit this game.

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    You still don't understand that benchmarks have nothing to do with being a proof for anything that's being said here, because nobody tries disputing the differences in dps and benchmarks are literally only proving that singular thing, while it does nothing for the incorrect claims from this thread that I've quoted earlier. You might dislike facts that go against your opinions, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of what people wrote here -including you- is just made up.

    Read my comment of the beginning of this post. DPS is a factor in balance, I would even say one of the biggest if you look at the PvE endgame. It kills opponents (being your main objective in Raids), speeds things up so you get your rewards earlier, literally breaks mechanics, even makes things easier if you consider "exhaustion factors" in longer fights (your dodges are getting depleted more often, strong heals/cleanses etc. get in cooldown, etc.), and last but not least, the timers set by ANet for a reason are literal DPS checks!
    So I'd say: YES, DPS is a factor to which you should balance to!
    But hey, let me repeat myself one more time: that you can complete a raid anyway you like (even by lying on the ground for the full duration of the fight) is definitely NOT a factor ANet should take into consideration when balancing the game!

    You seem to not understand what I wrote there. I never said dps isn't a factor in balance.

    Now again, I completely agree with you, and I'm sorry if I missed some posts back from you in this huge thread, but sometimes it's just really hard to read through all that off-topic stuff and filter stuff like this out of it!
    But let me continue on this: not as much in sPvP and WvW, but I think in the PvE endgame, DPS is actually one of your biggest pillars you should balance around, cause it's the absolute most important factor to complete endgame content. I mentioned it before, but it literally breaks mechanics and does much more things to ease your playthrough. If you don't balance the classes around your biggest pillar in the PvE endgame, well, your fundament will crumble at some stage, as we can already see in many people losing interest in the game. And again, big disclaimer here: there's not 100% correlation between bad balance and decline in player numbers, but imo there definitely is a portion of it that ANet shouldn't underestimate!

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

    Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want.

    It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs.

    Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want.

    It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro.

    That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices you make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful.

    Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ...

    Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to any game discussion, really!

    This is why you need proper balance in pve.

    Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those.

    These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role.

    I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer.

    To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format.

    The difference in dps between the classes isn't stopping new players form entering the raiding format, not sure what that random claim is, but that's just not true.

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

    Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want.

    It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs.

    Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want.

    It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro.

    That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices you make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful.

    please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ...

    But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out.

    Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @Obtena.7952 and you (= @Sobx.1758 ) (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with any class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of life, isn't it?

    Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on how we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure!

    Oh, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't bring any less to the discussion than your (= @Agrippa Oculus.3726 ), @Axl.8924 or @Lily.1935's made up arguments about classes being unusable(/not worth using) if they're not the best at something OR necro somehow being something that's stopping people from entering raids. If what we're saying doesn't add anything then neither any of these (on top of them simply not even being true), but you don't mind that because it pushes your "buff my class" request.

    Well, these people you're talking about actually come with real numbers, statistics and benchmarks which you can find on several websites (from snowcrows to discretize to even in the older days: gw2raidar!), yours ... well where is your proof? In numbers I mean? Not just the hunch you have, or the anecdotal: this one time .... stories.

    "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It would be relevant if I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while proving something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)?

    I don't care what you are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about balance!
    Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign 101/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not!

    Yup and balance!

    No it doesn't! Let me bring your argumentation to its extreme, and then you hopefully figure out that it doesn't have to do anything with balance. What if ANet would design a class tomorrow that literally can't do anything except for standing in a corner. It has a max of 0 DPS, 0 HPS, 0% support, no mobility, etc. It can only stand in a corner, and can die ... really quickly. With your flawless argumentation, you'd say that would still be balanced, cause you can 9-man raids! That you can complete raids anyway you like and with any class you like has nothing to do with balance! It's that simple.

    Wow, nice strawman you've got there. You can keep trying to "bring my argumentation to its extreme" all you want, but it has nothing to do with what I've said. You can literally fill dps spots with necros and still easly complete most/all raids. Your EXTREME! example has nothing to do with what is being said in this thread

    Exactly, it has nothing to do with this thread,

    What I (and, for example, Obtena) wrote has everything to do with this thread and balancing in this game. You trying to overblow what others are saying in an attempt to dismiss it doesn't work and is a pretty sad, hopeless effort. When I wrote "it has nothing to do with what was written in this thread" I was very obviously talking about your awful overexaggeration and I even explained why. You can twist the other people words all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you're incorrect and simply try to dodge what others write.

    and so is your argumentation that:

    You can literally fill dps spots with necros and still easly complete most/all raids.

    It has nothing to do with this thread! Because it has nothing to do with balance!!!

    ?

    It has everything to do with this thread and balance. This is how this game IS balanced. This is WHY this game CAN be balanced why it is. Your awful attempt at disregarding what was written based on a wrong overblown comparison has nothing to do with what was written above. You keep trying to dodge, but it just doesn't work.
    Start answering to what is actually written or stop pretending you're responding, while all you do is twist the words you're quoting.

    And now that's confirmed, let's talk about balance:

    Sure, I want more frequent balance patches too

    I wholeheartedly agree with you!

    Cool, but frequency of patch release has little to do with actual ingame balancing. Also you've already managed to write this thing 3 times back-to-back after having a whole other discussion in an attempt to dodge what was being said, because you know you have nothing to respond to it.
    You can keep typing "I want more frequent balance patches", but don't pretend it's in any way productive or relevant.

    but it's irrelevant to suddenly bring it up now in this comment chain and pretend it was EVER part of it.

    Why? This thread is about balance updates. Why can't I bring it back on-topic (it was actually going really off-topic: with people going on and on about things that has nothing to do with balance) and in this case mention the frequency of balance updates as of late? Which again, is imo the most troubling issue of the whole balance system in this game. Definitely as of late! For me, it's the elephant in the room. It's been FAR too long since a real balance update has hit this game.

    Why? I already explained it -because you kept talking about something else for 2 pages and suddenly when you have nothing relevant to respond you run from the previous comment chain and suddenly try to pretend this is not what this thread is about -but it was for a few pages before up to the moment you've read something you dislike and have nothing relevant to respond with. Which is fine, but stop pretending that's not the reason you're running away from what is being written in this thread. Seriously, it's a bit too transparent to work for you.

    And if that's all you have to say here then you're pretty much done with the thread and there's no reason for you to keep "pinging" (by quoting their nicknames) people just to repeat "I want more frequent patches!" -cool, everyone else knows that already, you're not adding anything to the topic that was being discussed by repeating this one unrelated line. If that's still not clear for you... welp, good luck.

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    You still don't understand that benchmarks have nothing to do with being a proof for anything that's being said here, because nobody tries disputing the differences in dps and benchmarks are literally only proving that singular thing, while it does nothing for the incorrect claims from this thread that I've quoted earlier. You might dislike facts that go against your opinions, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of what people wrote here -including you- is just made up.

    Read my comment of the beginning of this post. DPS is a factor in balance, I would even say one of the biggest if you look at the PvE endgame. It kills opponents (being your main objective in Raids), speeds things up so you get your rewards earlier, literally breaks mechanics, even makes things easier if you consider "exhaustion factors" in longer fights (your dodges are getting depleted more often, strong heals/cleanses etc. get in cooldown, etc.), and last but not least, the timers set by ANet for a reason are literal DPS checks!
    So I'd say: YES, DPS is a factor to which you should balance to!
    But hey, let me repeat myself one more time: that you can complete a raid anyway you like (even by lying on the ground for the full duration of the fight) is definitely NOT a factor ANet should take into consideration when balancing the game!

    You seem to not understand what I wrote there. I never said dps isn't a factor in balance.

    Now again, I completely agree with you, and I'm sorry if I missed some posts back from you in this huge thread, but sometimes it's just really hard to read through all that off-topic stuff and filter stuff like this out of it!
    But let me continue on this: not as much in sPvP and WvW, but I think in the PvE endgame, DPS is actually one of your biggest pillars you should balance around, cause it's the absolute most important factor to complete endgame content. I mentioned it before, but it literally breaks mechanics and does much more things to ease your playthrough. If you don't balance the classes around your biggest pillar in the PvE endgame, well, your fundament will crumble at some stage, as we can already see in many people losing interest in the game. And again, big disclaimer here: there's not 100% correlation between bad balance and decline in player numbers, but imo there definitely is a portion of it that ANet shouldn't underestimate!

    Cool, I've linked what you can re-read and you don't need to pretend you've "missed some posts from me in this huge thread", because I'm literally talking about the posts you were responding to. You didn't miss it, you were responding to it up until you've decided you have no arguments, at which point you've suddenly decided it's not about balance (but it is) and started repeating "more frequent balance!" as if it's constructive or related to last x pages of this thread (which was still about balancing despite you trying to claim otherwise).
    Again, what you're doing here (dodging when you have nothing to respond with) is too transparent to work for you. o/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    But let me continue on this: not as much in sPvP and WvW, but I think in the PvE endgame, DPS is actually one of your biggest pillars you should balance around, cause it's the absolute most important factor to complete endgame content.

    The biggest pillars are knowing the encounter and knowing how to play the build you have because it doesn't matter HOW much DPS you have if you don't have those two things ... but if you have those two things, you only just need to meet the threshold of DPS to complete endgame content.

    There is much evidence that shows that threshold is far below that of meta builds and team compositions. For instance, the fact that highly capable players are short manning and finishing raids WELL within the timer is evidence. The fact that people don't need to take optimal builds and be successful is also evidence. Why? because the game is NOT designed around big DPS pillars that you claim it should be balanced around; it's balanced around allowing people to play how they want.

    The only reason you think DPS should be the big balance pillar is because you dislike the DPS range that exists over the classes DESPITE the fact that it doesn't impact players being successful.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    But let me continue on this: not as much in sPvP and WvW, but I think in the PvE endgame, DPS is actually one of your biggest pillars you should balance around, cause it's the absolute most important factor to complete endgame content.

    The biggest pillars are knowing the encounter and knowing how to play the build you have because it doesn't matter HOW much DPS you have if you don't have those two things ... but if you have those two things, you only just need to meet the threshold of DPS to complete endgame content.

    There is much evidence that shows that threshold is far below that of meta builds and team compositions. For instance, the fact that highly capable players are short manning and finishing raids WELL within the timer is evidence. The fact that people don't need to take optimal builds and be successful is also evidence. Why? because the game is NOT designed around big DPS pillars that you claim it should be balanced around; it's balanced around allowing people to play how they want.

    The only reason you think DPS should be the big balance pillar is because you dislike the DPS range that exists over the classes DESPITE the fact that it doesn't impact players being successful.

    My god, you even give the example yourself in your own post. Short-manning raids is a real thing. It happens all the time for instance when people are selling raids! The person(s) buying the raids can (and probably will) die the very first few seconds a raid starts. And at the end is still successful. HOW has this anything to do with balance??? Or how should ANet balance their game around facts like that??? Really, enlighten me!
    And when you answer that question: bear in mind: this is a thread about balance updates. With your reasoning, ANet might as well stop balancing because they've achieved perfect balance! Everyone can be successful in this game, so why balance at all?

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2021

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    But let me continue on this: not as much in sPvP and WvW, but I think in the PvE endgame, DPS is actually one of your biggest pillars you should balance around, cause it's the absolute most important factor to complete endgame content.

    The biggest pillars are knowing the encounter and knowing how to play the build you have because it doesn't matter HOW much DPS you have if you don't have those two things ... but if you have those two things, you only just need to meet the threshold of DPS to complete endgame content.

    There is much evidence that shows that threshold is far below that of meta builds and team compositions. For instance, the fact that highly capable players are short manning and finishing raids WELL within the timer is evidence. The fact that people don't need to take optimal builds and be successful is also evidence. Why? because the game is NOT designed around big DPS pillars that you claim it should be balanced around; it's balanced around allowing people to play how they want.

    The only reason you think DPS should be the big balance pillar is because you dislike the DPS range that exists over the classes DESPITE the fact that it doesn't impact players being successful.

    My god, you even give the example yourself in your own post. Short-manning raids is a real thing. It happens all the time for instance when people are selling raids! The person(s) buying the raids can (and probably will) die the very first few seconds a raid starts. And at the end is still successful. HOW has this anything to do with balance??? Or how should ANet balance their game around facts like that???

    How should Anet balance the game around the fact that highly capable people are short man raids? Seems to me they should just keep doing what they are doing ... because shortmanning raids is an example that the threshold for success is low enough to allow people to play how they want.

    Everyone can be successful in this game, so why balance at all?

    Oh that's easy ... because the game doesn't work how Anet wants it to work. I mean, what do YOU think is the reason Anet balances to PVE for the last 8 years? It' certainly not to give everyone meta builds and high DPS choices for all the options they want to play.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2021

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    But let me continue on this: not as much in sPvP and WvW, but I think in the PvE endgame, DPS is actually one of your biggest pillars you should balance around, cause it's the absolute most important factor to complete endgame content.

    The biggest pillars are knowing the encounter and knowing how to play the build you have because it doesn't matter HOW much DPS you have if you don't have those two things ... but if you have those two things, you only just need to meet the threshold of DPS to complete endgame content.

    There is much evidence that shows that threshold is far below that of meta builds and team compositions. For instance, the fact that highly capable players are short manning and finishing raids WELL within the timer is evidence. The fact that people don't need to take optimal builds and be successful is also evidence. Why? because the game is NOT designed around big DPS pillars that you claim it should be balanced around; it's balanced around allowing people to play how they want.

    The only reason you think DPS should be the big balance pillar is because you dislike the DPS range that exists over the classes DESPITE the fact that it doesn't impact players being successful.

    My god, you even give the example yourself in your own post. Short-manning raids is a real thing. It happens all the time for instance when people are selling raids! The person(s) buying the raids can (and probably will) die the very first few seconds a raid starts. And at the end is still successful. HOW has this anything to do with balance??? Or how should ANet balance their game around facts like that??? Really, enlighten me!
    And when you answer that question: bear in mind: this is a thread about balance updates. With your reasoning, ANet might as well stop balancing because they've achieved perfect balance! Everyone can be successful in this game, so why balance at all?

    For that to not ever be the thing, the game would need to be balanced around strict dps values. But it's not and it shouldn't be because it's pretty casual -even in raids. It's balanced around you (and your squad) not constatnly failing the mechanics -if you (and most impotantly: anet) don't want the mechanics to be skippable by dps, then there are obviously ways to do it without touching dps. This is also why you have freedom of builds you choose to use in those encounters.
    And what do you mean "what does it have to do with balance"? EVERYTHING. Pretty clearly this IS the way it's balanced. Just because you don't like that way, doesn't make it any less relevant.

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    But let me continue on this: not as much in sPvP and WvW, but I think in the PvE endgame, DPS is actually one of your biggest pillars you should balance around, cause it's the absolute most important factor to complete endgame content.

    The biggest pillars are knowing the encounter and knowing how to play the build you have because it doesn't matter HOW much DPS you have if you don't have those two things ... but if you have those two things, you only just need to meet the threshold of DPS to complete endgame content.

    There is much evidence that shows that threshold is far below that of meta builds and team compositions. For instance, the fact that highly capable players are short manning and finishing raids WELL within the timer is evidence. The fact that people don't need to take optimal builds and be successful is also evidence. Why? because the game is NOT designed around big DPS pillars that you claim it should be balanced around; it's balanced around allowing people to play how they want.

    The only reason you think DPS should be the big balance pillar is because you dislike the DPS range that exists over the classes DESPITE the fact that it doesn't impact players being successful.

    My god, you even give the example yourself in your own post. Short-manning raids is a real thing. It happens all the time for instance when people are selling raids! The person(s) buying the raids can (and probably will) die the very first few seconds a raid starts. And at the end is still successful. HOW has this anything to do with balance??? Or how should ANet balance their game around facts like that???

    How should Anet balance the game around the fact that highly capable people are short man raids? Seems to me they should just keep doing what they are doing ... because shortmanning raids is an example that the threshold for success is low enough to allow people to play how they want.

    Ok, so at the very moment that means not balancing at all or very rarely. Because that's pretty much what ANet is doing right now. Is that what you think is good for this game? (btw, just asking the question, not judging you, it's fine to have a difference of opinion of course)

    Everyone can be successful in this game, so why balance at all?

    Oh that's easy ... because the game doesn't work how Anet wants it to work.

    And how do you think ANet wants it to work, balance-wise? Again, this is a thread about balance updates! For instance, do you think people like us: the players, should have a say into it? But also, could you give me specifics, just like how normal balance updates from ANet look like: traits, skills, etc. how would you change them? And maybe also the general ideas behind those changes (a bit like the introductions they always write for every class).

    I mean, what do YOU think is the reason Anet balances to PVE for the last 8 years?

    Well, not enough, that's for sure, but that's also why I still write on this forum (and in this thread). Mostly because I still care (don't know for how long anymore though), and because there is still a tiny bit of hope left, that they actually listen to the community. You see, unlike you, I actually think they're going in a VERY wrong direction at the moment, and decline in sales, player numbers, etc. proves my point. Sure, an expansion is coming, but that doesn't mean they should put the rest of the game on life support, what it almost looks like, right now! I think that would be a very bad choice of ANet.

    It' certainly not to give everyone meta builds and high DPS choices for all the options they want to play.

    Maybe they should?! Well, not how you write it, of course. But maybe ANet should look more into what the META is and how quite a lot of people are looking at it as an example at where they eventually want to get. It means showing an interest in their current player-base and what moves them in getting better in the game they play.
    You see, change can sometimes be a very good thing. Also for ANet! Admitting you're not doing the right thing right now (again, proven by numbers): in other words, owning your mistakes, is imo actually a very strong thing to do. It's not a weakness!

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not looking good for use to get another update this month but i guess the day is not over. Today would be the preview.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2021

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    Ok, so at the very moment that means not balancing at all or very rarely.

    OK ... I mean, Anet can change the game however they want, however frequently they need to. I don't see a problem with that. Theoretically, if Anet came to the position where they believe PVE balance was achieved, then they could completely stop making PVE class changes. Balance patches are done until things are balanced ... why anyone would expect some frequent continuous stream of them based on their OWN OPINION the game still needs them makes no sense.

    and decline in sales, player numbers, etc. proves my point

    No it doesn't, because you have NO idea how those things are correlated to game balance. I mean, people have been leaving for various reasons for a long time ... so don't pretend like you got the data to claim it's because PVE isn't balanced the way you want it.

    Maybe they should?! It means showing an interest in their current player-base and what moves them in getting better in the game they play.

    Maybe? Not for the reasons you gave. What makes you come to the conclusion Anet's goal is to eventually get to balance around meta? or 'get players better'? I would conclude it's the exact opposite of that ... because the game is designed to allow people to play how they want.

    You see, change can sometimes be a very good thing

    Sure, sometimes it is. It's certainly not a reason for Anet take a gamble, throw out their philosophy to the game and balance according to all the other traditional MMO's. You claim the numbers show they should ... but there is no correlation between the numbers you talk about and how they relate to game balance.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Not looking good for use to get another update this month but i guess the day is not over. Today would be the preview.

    if they're even doing previews anymore, sure would be nice to get some kind of communication from the balance department that's said nothing for 6 months

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Not looking good for use to get another update this month but i guess the day is not over. Today would be the preview.

    if they're even doing previews anymore, sure would be nice to get some kind of communication from the balance department that's said nothing for 6 months

    I wouldn't expect any sort of balance until we get much closer to the release of End of Dragons.

  • manu.7539manu.7539 Member ✭✭✭

    Except for some very annoying gimmicks like stealthing and immo, I felt like the game was well balanced lately. Rangers are a bit broken and engis could use some buff but beside them, most of my duels feels fair and fun whatever the class I'm dueling with my weaver. There is so many changes, I cant judge this new upcoming balance yet but its scary.

  • @manu.7539 said:
    Except for some very annoying gimmicks like stealthing and immo, I felt like the game was well balanced lately. Rangers are a bit broken and engis could use some buff but beside them, most of my duels feels fair and fun whatever the class I'm dueling with my weaver. There is so many changes, I cant judge this new upcoming balance yet but its scary.

    Duels, maybe; the overall wvw experience is horrible. it is clearly geared towards forcing people to PvP rather than embodying any sort of strategy gaming, while WvW itself is pretty pointless aside from reward tracks now that they nerfed the realm bonuses from owning objectives. To make matters worse, it seems that mindless zerg play is catered to, with any efforts to reform the ability of people to withstand zergs being subject to much wailing and gnashing of teeth. The defensive structures, guards, seige equipment, etc are also completely underpowered, and flat ludicrous if you are even a minor student of history.

  • manu.7539manu.7539 Member ✭✭✭

    @Spook.5847 said:

    the overall wvw experience is horrible.

    I can only disagree. Lets say WvW isnt perfect and can be frustrating sometimes whatever if you are zerging, roaming etc but its a great game. After 40 years of gaming... I never played any game so involving and exciting!
    JQ arena in gw1 was all about strategy, killing people and die didnt matter at all. I just hope that the next expansion will bring JQ back since the arena was in Cantha. I saw something on the forum about it but I dont know much yet.

  • @manu.7539 said:

    @Spook.5847 said:

    the overall wvw experience is horrible.

    I can only disagree. Lets say WvW isnt perfect and can be frustrating sometimes whatever if you are zerging, roaming etc but its a great game. After 40 years of gaming... I never played any game so involving and exciting!
    JQ arena in gw1 was all about strategy, killing people and die didnt matter at all. I just hope that the next expansion will bring JQ back since the arena was in Cantha. I saw something on the forum about it but I dont know much yet.

    After years of EQ1, I played DAoC. Even though rudimentary, the way that keeps were structured, their innate defenses, how hookpoints were created, materials handling, and the benefits of owning disputed territories was much superior. It also did not have the absurd glowing arrows floating above everyone's head, so you actually had to be alert, and have much more situational awareness than in this game. I really do not care for PvP, as I think it is simply laziness on the part of game devs who are to cheap to put out decent content and plenty of it. I do not mind it as a side effect of immersive gameplay, but mindless, overpowering, unstoppable zerging has no redeeming qualities whatever.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2021

    @Spook.5847 said:

    @manu.7539 said:

    @Spook.5847 said:

    the overall wvw experience is horrible.

    I can only disagree. Lets say WvW isnt perfect and can be frustrating sometimes whatever if you are zerging, roaming etc but its a great game. After 40 years of gaming... I never played any game so involving and exciting!
    JQ arena in gw1 was all about strategy, killing people and die didnt matter at all. I just hope that the next expansion will bring JQ back since the arena was in Cantha. I saw something on the forum about it but I dont know much yet.

    After years of EQ1, I played DAoC. Even though rudimentary, the way that keeps were structured, their innate defenses, how hookpoints were created, materials handling, and the benefits of owning disputed territories was much superior. It also did not have the absurd glowing arrows floating above everyone's head, so you actually had to be alert, and have much more situational awareness than in this game. I really do not care for PvP, as I think it is simply laziness on the part of game devs who are to cheap to put out decent content and plenty of it. I do not mind it as a side effect of immersive gameplay, but mindless, overpowering, unstoppable zerging has no redeeming qualities whatever.

    EQ1 isn't a good example of pvp, since it was busted op. A warr with 400 resistance to all was neigh impossible since he resisted everything. PVP was unbalanced.

    I never played DAOC though but i can talk about wow PVP:

    Sure it was unbalanced in WOTLK but it was the most fun i had during TBC and WOTLK even if DK were insane and druids could basically regen through all attacks. It was offset by having weaknesses some classes could exploit, such as being purged by shaman repeatedly and priest.

    The reason is that perfect balance is a simple impossibility, but you can make said classes fun to play to the point you got so many counters to something that you need to think about, it makes the game more fun for me at least. Wow suffers from something similar to GW2, and many look back to a nostalgic time of WOTLK and TBC.

    Anet needs to be careful about listening to folks too much and wreck classes. Also: I believe 1 good thing to take from wow is this: Having someone who truly cares about the class and remembers to play around a lot to get a idea of whats wrong. I remember that on forums folks were complaining because they had staff that was split and some classes were less cared for than others other than the bottom line: Profit.

    So personally i think we should have 1 developer for each class, so problems get dealt with and can speak passionately about said class to fix.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    and decline in sales, player numbers, etc. proves my point

    No it doesn't, because you have NO idea how those things are correlated to game balance. I mean, people have been leaving for various reasons for a long time ... so don't pretend like you got the data to claim it's because PVE isn't balanced the way you want it.

    I was saying that it proves my point they're going in a (general) wrong direction at the moment! And if it has to do with balance I don't know, and I can't prove that. But as for everything, a wrong direction can be changed into a good one! How? Again, can't give any certainties there, but I would start changing something that you lack at in your direction. And as of late the frequency of balance updates is definitely very low at the moment. So, the correlation is not that far fetched!

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2021

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    and decline in sales, player numbers, etc. proves my point

    No it doesn't, because you have NO idea how those things are correlated to game balance. I mean, people have been leaving for various reasons for a long time ... so don't pretend like you got the data to claim it's because PVE isn't balanced the way you want it.

    I was saying that it proves my point they're going in a (general) wrong direction at the moment!

    Or it's natural given the age of the game, etc ... You just don't know. You don't even know what the player numbers or sales are ... you just say they go down because it suits your view of what's happening.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Agrippa Oculus.3726Agrippa Oculus.3726 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2021

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    and decline in sales, player numbers, etc. proves my point

    No it doesn't, because you have NO idea how those things are correlated to game balance. I mean, people have been leaving for various reasons for a long time ... so don't pretend like you got the data to claim it's because PVE isn't balanced the way you want it.

    I was saying that it proves my point they're going in a (general) wrong direction at the moment!

    Or it's natural given the age of the game

    We're talking about a game here, nothing natural about a game! It could "live" forever if we (or the people responsible for it) want it to! I've got a feeling you might be a bit toooo attached to this game if you see it as a living entity! Look I (used to) love this game myself as well, but I also see very clear signs it's not going well with it, atm!

    You don't even know what the player numbers or sales are ... you just say they go down because it suits your view of what's happening.

    There's enough proof (some even official from NCSoft) that tells you that. Don't bury your head in the sand!

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    at first I see that you talk in English, but not understand mind of words.
    There is no any balance. It is RE-balance.
    The target it not change something to make it more looks like something another, target change something for make change only. It give some fun.
    This is no calculator in bank, this is game.

    And only if you rethink that - nest step discuss about re-balance changes.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2021

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    and decline in sales, player numbers, etc. proves my point

    No it doesn't, because you have NO idea how those things are correlated to game balance. I mean, people have been leaving for various reasons for a long time ... so don't pretend like you got the data to claim it's because PVE isn't balanced the way you want it.

    I was saying that it proves my point they're going in a (general) wrong direction at the moment!

    Or it's natural given the age of the game

    We're talking about a game here, nothing natural about a game!

    I'm saying it's natural for a game to lose players over time so you can't say your point the game is making wrong direction is proven because of things you don't know.

    There's enough proof (some even official from NCSoft) that tells you that

    No, that's not proof. You need correlation for it to be proof. It MIGHT be proof. You don't know. You don't have player counts and log in statistics and you don't get financial statements from Anet so no ... you DON'T have anything that tells you the game is going the wrong direction. You simply suspect it.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • @Axl.8924 said:

    @Spook.5847 said:

    @manu.7539 said:

    @Spook.5847 said:

    the overall wvw experience is horrible.

    I can only disagree. Lets say WvW isnt perfect and can be frustrating sometimes whatever if you are zerging, roaming etc but its a great game. After 40 years of gaming... I never played any game so involving and exciting!
    JQ arena in gw1 was all about strategy, killing people and die didnt matter at all. I just hope that the next expansion will bring JQ back since the arena was in Cantha. I saw something on the forum about it but I dont know much yet.

    After years of EQ1, I played DAoC. Even though rudimentary, the way that keeps were structured, their innate defenses, how hookpoints were created, materials handling, and the benefits of owning disputed territories was much superior. It also did not have the absurd glowing arrows floating above everyone's head, so you actually had to be alert, and have much more situational awareness than in this game. I really do not care for PvP, as I think it is simply laziness on the part of game devs who are to cheap to put out decent content and plenty of it. I do not mind it as a side effect of immersive gameplay, but mindless, overpowering, unstoppable zerging has no redeeming qualities whatever.

    EQ1 isn't a good example of pvp, since it was busted op. A warr with 400 resistance to all was neigh impossible since he resisted everything. PVP was unbalanced.

    I never played DAOC though but i can talk about wow PVP:

    Sure it was unbalanced in WOTLK but it was the most fun i had during TBC and WOTLK even if DK were insane and druids could basically regen through all attacks. It was offset by having weaknesses some classes could exploit, such as being purged by shaman repeatedly and priest.

    The reason is that perfect balance is a simple impossibility, but you can make said classes fun to play to the point you got so many counters to something that you need to think about, it makes the game more fun for me at least. Wow suffers from something similar to GW2, and many look back to a nostalgic time of WOTLK and TBC.

    Anet needs to be careful about listening to folks too much and wreck classes. Also: I believe 1 good thing to take from wow is this: Having someone who truly cares about the class and remembers to play around a lot to get a idea of whats wrong. I remember that on forums folks were complaining because they had staff that was split and some classes were less cared for than others other than the bottom line: Profit.

    So personally i think we should have 1 developer for each class, so problems get dealt with and can speak passionately about said class to fix.

                                                                                                                                                    
    

    I am talking about WvW, which i agree has devolved into forced PvP, rather than any kind of strategy or game designed around realm conflict. EQ1 has nothing to do with PvP imo, nor with WvW, but it is an excellent example of interesting classes, and a myriad of cool powers/abilities/spells by a vast array of classes - which is sorely lacking in GW2.

    WvW in GW2 is beyond broken. It suffers from fundamental problems relating to the desire of certain devs to control "how" people play, and trying to force them to play in certain ways, etc - they frequently admit it! The "castles" are absurdly designed with all of the (easily destroyed by hand weaponry) defenses and (absurdly expensive and weak) siege on weak, low walls exposed to every kind of fire; the farms are remote, and very poorly defended with no way to upgrade those defenses to anything sensible; "guards" in this game are some of the weakest I have ever seen anywhere, and with very poor AI; numerous bugs with targeting, LOS for archery, etc - coupled with inconsistent physics for other things like rifles and mortars (and by the way, rifles shoot much further than arrows do, folks); mount bugs that send you off cliffs and random directions when you try and get on your "warclaw"; seige that does nothing against attackers, etc, etc, etc. Top that all off with one of the worst implementations of stealth I have ever seen in a game (e.g., stealthing while in combat or dotted, repeatedly stealthing, almost no ways to force out of stealth (and all of which are purgeable), using a bow to stealth teleport in any direction - including across gaps with no valid path or up onto ledges and the like, stealthing while driving a dune roller, and so forth. The very poor design, and weak mechanics ,make it unfun to play. I doubt it will be fixed given the resources it would take.