Is it fair to say the balance patches are the 'content' for wvw? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Is it fair to say the balance patches are the 'content' for wvw?

RlyOsim.2497RlyOsim.2497 Member ✭✭

Title.

Also, for discussion, acceptable?

Comments

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Balance patches are the refreshments, rewards shall be the content (whatever they may be as in the fun of playing, actual reward rewards, etc) :D
    However, I could see how one would perceive balance patches as "content", especially if they enjoy multiclassing, theorycrafting, and using every class, every possible power/hybrid/condi build, every weaponset, every rune and sigil, etc. I do somewhat fall in that category.
    So all in all I'd say balance patches are considered by some players (maybe only a meager few) as content, whilst the majority of others will consider it an autonomous part of WvW and not actual content.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No. :3 nerfs and buffs simply makes us adjust to a new meta. Else, things would be so stale. But new content = new mechanics

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    Yes, you're correct. WvW doesn't need more "content" in the traditional way. It needs a lot of things, but new keeps, new siege or w/e is not what it needs.

    Alliances wouldn't be any more or less content than balance patches fyi.

    New balance patches are basically small content patches.

    New elite specs are big content patches.

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  • Baldrick.8967Baldrick.8967 Member ✭✭✭

    No. Balance patches are attempts at fixing problems in current content.

  • Blockhead Magee.3092Blockhead Magee.3092 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Balance patches are just proof that the balance team is doing something. Not good things most of the time, but something.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    at a glance, yes. in practice, no.

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  • vier.1327vier.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    And the mounts, and also the repair hammer and the portable cannons...

    And who can forget..... Yeah baby, you know what is coming.

    Just a little more...

    Almost there

    WvW Alliances.

  • hunkamania.7561hunkamania.7561 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They're just cleaning up their own mess with these things it's not content but they got a long ways to go. It's not enough

    Aurora Glade Server Leader

  • McPero.3287McPero.3287 Member ✭✭✭

    Balance patches are content for WvW and PvP when they improve the balance. If you are a true PvP/WvW player you don't care about new Warclaw skin, new siege weapons, that a tree is of different colour now.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 10, 2020

    No, balance patches are not content, they are balance. It's in the name.

    Nore are they development, they are maintenence. That's an even more important observation relative this thread topic.

    Balance passes is something you should expect after new content (like new classes) that affects balance.

    Content in PvP modes involves things like abilities, maps and most importantly but often overlooked: rulesets.

    Let's say you made a GvG map, then making the map is rather simple as you only need a realtively small flat surface, there may be specific abilities added like something like the Aurene skills in the stories, then that's an ability that changes how something plays, but everything else is governed by rules in a ruleset. Who gets to be there? How do you win? How, where, when do things start and stop? Look at Conquest (sPvP), what is it? Well, it's a queued 5v5 CTF mode in a race towards a point total awarded by set capture points (often in an uneven numbered home + contested setup), kills and spawn bonuses. No matter how maps change, those are the core rules. A TDM mode, a Moba, a full sandbox (like EVE; which can have perpetual or seasonal resetting variations) or attack/defend modes (like CS or WoT's frontline) has different rules etc.

    With that in mind: Alliances is content (even linking is content, just not very sustainable content), changing scoring is content (so skirmishes was content but rather toothless content), even Stronghold, EotM and DBL was content (just not very good or appreciated content), 2v2's and Swiss was content and the 20v20 stuff worked on is content and so on. The ticket and track systems was content, one of the few universally appreacited content updates.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They ARE the content, but that doesn't mean the foundation of a mode should remain unchanged forever. Adjustments to map or mechanics should happen somewhat regularly, honestly I'd say every 6 months would be fine if they happened at all. Stuff like changing some terrain around for example. Giving an objective multiple capture points or something.

    I rather choose death.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The balance patch is our content. The whining on the forums is their content.

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  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 10, 2020

    @Henry.5713 said:
    The balance patch is our content. The whining on the forums is their content.

    The funny thing is, the official forums (ed. the WvW subforum i mean) these days are probably smaller than, say, the GotM discord.
    The people who post with somewhat regularity is down to something as low as 20-30 players or something. There's 7-8 of them in this thread.
    The people who read, lurk or contribute on and off is likely to be larger but not enough to suggest more activity between discussion posted and read.
    The only value this forum has left is that it is a forum so comments are better saved and found and it still is "official" even with Reddit's dominance.

  • Is it fair to say the balance patches are the 'content' for wvw?

    Absolutely no. Balancing in a competetive game/mode is mandatory for healthy gameplay. Content is anything that goes beyond what is absolutely necessary.
    For example: no downstate-event or call of war could be considered "content", although it is still basically nothing compared to what is considered "content" in PvE.
    The problem is: how do you even want to create more content for a game mode, that is focused on competetive play?

    Let´s move away from Guild Wars 2 a bit, comparing on how other games deliver content. Let´s just take League of Legends as an example. A new champion released is kind of content, that also will result in a change of game balance and meta. But the "normal" game mode itself (5v5´s on Summoners Rift or ARAM´s) doesnt change. But this game uses rotating game modes and usually missions related to them or new champion releases to create content. They frequently add (or at least re-use rebalanced) new game-modes with new interpretations of the game mechanics. For example, currently Nexus Blitz is live on the servers, that is basically an altered map based on the removed 3v3-map, using new mechanics (double Junglers) alongside of old known stuff or things that got removed in the past (old items basically). Within this game mode, they also introduced new mechanics to the gameplay (different events happening on the map, with the outcome changing advantages for the winning team either temporary or permanently). THIS is content.

    Here comes the problem: how do you want to do something similar in Guild Wars 2 WvW? You can´t just adapt the way content gets delivered in other games, because GW2-WvW works totally different.

    Now, my opinion on that: I don´t really think WvW needs more content in its current state. There are bigger issues to address:
    Server stability
    Client stability
    Balancing (both, player population and classes)
    short- and long-term rewards, that are heavily focused on WvW
    just to name a few

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is a scale with two plates having one pile of pebbles on each. One side is lower than the other. You remove a pebble from the lower side, and add it to the higher plate. The scale shifts, and both plates are now closer to the same elevation.

    Did you increase the total amount of pebbles on the scale?

    D:

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  • @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:
    There is a scale with two plates having one pile of pebbles on each. One side is lower than the other. You remove a pebble from the lower side, and add it to the higher plate. The scale shifts, and both plates are now closer to the same elevation.

    Did you increase the total amount of pebbles on the scale?

    D:

    Yes. I changed the plate with a coconut.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    Since this thread got bumped now, reading back on what was said and how the questions were phrased you could also say that ArenaNet may hope for the new balance initiative to be the "content" WvW gets until Alliances can ship. That is very possible and a way to interprete the question even if I won't take back the more theoretical stuff I mentioned before in this thread.

    It's still not acceptable or healthy though and may not be sufficient to keep things afloat should Alliances continue to drag on further with little to nothing else in the pipeline. However could we say that it is so now, because ArenaNet treats it as such? That balance is the only attention to expect? Very possibly.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    Yes. The patches change combat and open build diversity to create new combat experiences.
    Combat experiences and replayability through diversity are the only reason people play PvP games in general, as those encounters are the intended content.
    So balance creates content with the changes it introduces, like any other game.

    The issue is the content quality and availability of a healthy metagame allowing the continuous enabling of new player-driven content through builds and diversity is at the mercy of the game being balanced and having efforts being made against it. If there's imbalance and stagnation, that diversity dies and there's subsequently no real new content to be had because fights essentially stay the same for months (or years) on end with ANet's balancing cadence.

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  • Blackarps.1974Blackarps.1974 Member ✭✭✭

    No. Content is considered something new being created and added to the game. Balance is just adjusting the way the game is already played.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    I think that's a pretty reasonable way to look at it. After all, balance patches DO affect how people play and experience different aspects of WvW. If that's not JUST as effective to hold the interest of players as new maps, etc ... then that appetite for content can't satiated anyways.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Sleepwalker.1398Sleepwalker.1398 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Best "content" is when a balance patch is applied to pvp only and WvW players are left scratching their heads.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2020

    No. Other players are content. This is a pvp game. Patches only modify the game mechanics. It's like trying to say changing the colors of the checkerboard is content rather than the opponent you play against.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They would be content if they didn't strip away gameplay and pigeonhole everyone into mind-numbing karma trains.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Samug.6512Samug.6512 Member ✭✭✭

    Technically they aren't. The thing is, in WvW players are responsible for making content. Fights, duels, small scale, escaping a blob, roaming, fighting over an objective is content, and balance is a tool that is given to players to create that content. So I suspect balance patch makes me as excited as new story chapter for people who are into it.

    [NUKE]

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    No, they are not content. They are bug fixes and should not change the way how a class works in general.

    Balance patches should not be seen as a cheap way of changing a class identity. To change a class identity and to extend it should only be done with new elite specs.

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  • Solanum.6983Solanum.6983 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2020

    I wouldn't class them as content.
    In my opinion New Tracks are the content updates for the most part. WvW is a PvP game mode, there doesn't need to be constant content updates since it's the gameplay that matters most, New items and rewards are nice but balance patches and meta shifts are needed most to keep things fresh and exciting.

  • Xion.5694Xion.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    No.
    In other games balance patch is to keep gamplay healthy. Here its just either shock teraphy, or -meh lets add a second here and take a second there, DONE now lest play Counter Strike'. There is clearly a lack of clear vision what this mode should look like.

    What is content for WvW?
    New map.
    Revamped Map.
    New rewards.
    New tools to play with.
    New upgrades to objectives.
    Objectives that are more variable.

    Warclaw was a 'kind of ' new content, but now it is completely watered down after the nerfs and lack of idea what actually this addition should do.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No skills balance is not content, at worst it's negative content. If skill changes trigger a player to rebuild their toons or abandon them and/or leave the game then it's even more of a negative change. On top of that its added cost to the playerbase if a player feels the need to rebuild a toon in a game environment that already pays very little for doing the content.

    New content would be:

    • New maps
    • New abilities
    • New elites
    • New objectives
    • New goals
    • New missions
    • New upgrades
    • Bounties (not saying new since we have non-now)
    • New siege
    • New masteries

    Aka, things to do, work toward and play. Things to entertain and make people feel that the time was well spent.

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  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭

    @RlyOsim.2497 said:
    "Is it fair to say the balance patches are the 'content' for wvw?"

    • "are the 'content' "

    Nice question. I would say that balance patches are apart of the content of WvW, but not necessarily "the content for wvw." I don't know what the content of WvW fully will entail now, or is to entail in the future, but I/ we should all know that current WvW "content" isn't just solely attributed to "balance patches." We have Reward Tracks and now a Warclaw, trying to avoid going any deeper here. So, no, balance patches are not the content for WvW, but they may be attributed to WvW balance depending on the implementation.

    Just pointing this out for fun, but couldn't one ask the same leading question for say . . . PvE? Perhaps even replace the word "balance" for "bugs" if it helps.

    Often, far more times than not, balance patches are attempts to "fix" errors made in the previous balance patches. This situation easily begins to invite a phrase, that is well thrown around, known as "quality content." For instance, I could bake a kitten-filled pie and top that with one beautiful cherry, but it's still just a kitten-filled pie. Or . . . I could make maybe a chocolate creme pie and be happy with that. In this case, I could care less about what side of the coin everyone lands on. I just care what I'm being served.

    Have a great day.

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  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RlyOsim.2497 said:
    Title.

    Also, for discussion, acceptable?

    NO, it's absolutely not acceptable: Balance patches are for all modes.

    WvW has seen scant content over the years, notably NONE in the Path of Fire "expansion" whatsoever.

    If you look at Heart of Thorns you can see why, however.

    They automated many of the little minigames. The tasks that gave people little roles to fulfil.
    Scouting for mesmers after a keep capture - replaced by orange dots.
    Upgrading an objective - lever replaced automatic upgrades, workers made redundant!
    The list of inconvenient chores should become LONGER with expansion packs, not shorter!

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