Defense Traits Rework [Warrior]

ADEPT:

Thick Skin: Reduce by 7% damage coming from beyond the range threshold (600)Why? Similar to the adept trait "close quarters" of the revenant, the idea is to protect the warrior from ranged attack, since he's primarly a melee class that suffers from kite

• Shield Master: No changes. The trait is fine. If any change needed, it should apply to shield skills
• Dogged March : Reduce the duration of movements-impeding conditions by 33%. Grant regeneration (5s) when you receive or remove of of this condition (cooldown 5s)Why?: make it more useful while cancelling the use conflict with condition removing
• Cull the weaks Increase damage against weakened foe by 7%. Critical strikes inflict weakness (5s) on foes around you (radius 180, cooldown 10s).Why? As some pointed out, inflicting weakness to a foe already half dead has little use. So i think provide a way to apply it generally in groups would be more productive

MASTER:

Adrenal Health: When hitting with a burst skill, you gain barrier based on adrenaline level (1600, 2400, 3200 ; 0.6, 0.9, 1.2). For 5s, your healing increases by 25%.Why? Passive healing being outdated, i'd rather give the warrior something that gives proper sustain in a more active way. The second affect is to give a chance of recovery after the burst, in the same core idea.

• Defy pain: Incoming condition damage is reduced by 10%. Increase toughness by 150.Why? Since passive trait are a thing of the past, i'd add one that would allow the warrior to deal against heavy condi damage
• Armored attack: Grant yourself protection (2s) whenever you grant yourself retaliation. Retaliation damage increases by 15%, and by 33% if you take no damage on a strike(note: either by blocking or with 100% reduction).Why? Adding some defense and enhancing retaliation on this trait line. See spiked armor for the full picture. Somehow punishes for attacking the warrior when fully protected, which makes sense
• Sundering mace: Stuns, dazes and knock downs durations increase by 25%. Mace sills recharge is reduced by 20%. Pulverize, pommel bash and tremor apply confusion (x2, 5s).Why? Making this trait more in line with other weapon traits that have both a generic bonus and one specific to the weapon. For the specific, i finally added the ancient effect of merciless hammer on confusion, to give it a different flavour and offer more option, especially for berserker

GRANDMASTER:

Spiked Armor: grant yourself retaliation (5s) when hitting with a burst skill (applies only once) (cooldown 7s). Reduce incoming damage by 10% while having retaliationWhy? Give the possibility to have retaliation for longer while making it more active, since it's the ONLY trait/skill of the warrior that grant it. Note the synergy with armored attack.

• Last Stand (likely renamed). Increase stances duration by 50%. Grant stability when activating a stance (x2, 6s).Grant vigor (6s) when a stance ends.Why? duration bonus more in line with the soulbeast stance trait. Supress the passive effect while maintaining the anti-cc idea.
• Cleansing ire Remove conditions from yourself when you ACTIVATE a burst skill (no need to hit then) based on adrenaline level: 1, 2, 3. Priority removing is given to blind. Gain adrenaline when hit (1).Why? Conditionning the suppression on hit is frustrating because of blind. Like this, the trait allows the warrior to mitigate that condition.
• Rousing Resilience: Gain +1000 toughness for 4s when you activate break out of stun. Double duration (8s) and heals (2536) if a disabling effect was sucessfully removed.Why? Adding a partial effect upon activating skills with the break out of stun effect (shake it off, balanced stance, frenzy, dolyak signet, stomp, outrage, headbutt,...) is to give the trait more utility when fighting ennemies that doesn't use control, or when the skill is required at another key moment, somehow making it less of a "niche trait"

@"Lametoile.7394" said:ADEPT:

Thick Skin: Reduce by 10% damage coming from beyond the range threshold (600)Why? Similar to the adept trait "close quarters" of the revenant, the idea is to protect the warrior from ranged attack, since he's primarly a melee class that suffers from kiteAlright.

• Shield Master: No changes. The trait is fine. If any change needed, it should apply to shield skills
• Dogged March : Reduce the duration of movements-impeding conditions by 33%. Heal yourself (800) whenever you remove of of this conditionWhy?: regeneration is mostly useless if you don't have a lot of healing power. Granting healing instead make it more useful while cancelling the use conflict with condition removingWe get healing via condi cleanse with Tactics, so I do not think they'll double dip that functionality. Why not add in some condi damage reduction while you have regeneration?
• Cull the weaks Increase damage against weakened foe by 7%. Increase weakness duration by 2s when you inflict it. 3s if ennemy health is below 50%.Why? As some pointed out, inflicting weakness to a foe already half dead has little use. So i think, keeping the idea to finish the ennemy, that enhancing the condition itself would be more productiveI think this extra effect would be hard to implement in practice. What might work better is to apply weakness on a critical hit, either 33% chance no ICD or 100% chance with a 5s ICD. This way you can apply it more than once on someone if needed.MASTER:

Adrenal Health: When hitting with a burst skill, you gain barrier based on adrenaline level (2400, 3600, 4800 ; 1.0, 1.5, 2.0). For 5s, your healing increases by 33%.Why? Passive healing being outdated, i'd rather give the warrior something that gives proper sustain in a more active way. The second affect is to give a chance of recovery after the burst, in the same core idea.Interesting, but Warriors love that healing. But more barrier would also be nice... The coefficients might be too high on them though.

• Defy pain: Cast lesser endure pain when your health come back above 50%. (Lesser endure pain now last 4s and grant 50% damage reduction). Cooldown 30s, 90s in pvp.Why? Making the trait more active and associate it with the idea of recovery. 4s of serious protection also seems more useful than 2s of invulnerabilityI say keep it at the 50% threshold that it is now. Why not add in condition damage reduction as well?
• Armored attack: Grant yourself protection (2s) whenever you grant yourself retaliation. When stroke, retaliation damage you inflict back is increased by your current damage reduction percentage (note: blocking is considered a 100% damage reduction).(Ex: being hit from distance right after the burst (53% damage reduction) while inflict back 640 damage, 426 in pvp)Why? Adding some defense and enhancing retaliation on this trait line. See spiked armor for the full picture. Somehow punishes for attacking the warrior when fully protected, which makes senseI like the protection when granting oneself retaliation. I think the secondary bit is complicated. Just add a rider that retaliation on the warrior deals +X% more damage.
• Sundering mace: Stuns, dazes and knock downs durations increase by 20%. Mace sills recharge is reduced by 20%. 10% of your toughness is converted into power while wielding a mace.Why? Making this trait mor ein line with other weapon traits that have both a generic bonus and one specific to the weapon. I transferred the previous armored attack effect (a rather weak one) to preserve the importance of toughness somehowAlright, not like power helps mace anymore though.GRANDMASTER:

Spiked Armor: grant yourself retaliation (5s) when hitting with a burst skill (applies only once). Reduce incoming damage by 10% while having retaliationWhy? Give the possibility to have retaliation for longer while making it more active, since it's the ONLY trait/skill of the warrior that grant it. Note the synergy with armored attack.Gives more control over when we get retaliation, so that is cool.

• Last Stand (likely renamed). Increase stances duration by 50%. Stances grant vigor (6s) upon activation. Dodging while in a stance grant you stability (x1, 3s) (possible cooldown in pvp).Why? duration bonus more in line with the soulbeast stance trait. Replace the passive effect with an active effect more in line with vigor that also mitigate the conflict of use of dodging in a stanceSure lets give warrior something nice for once. Not sure if the stability is what works though. Could be retaliation to play more into the traitline, and thus also gain protection.
• Cleasing ire Remove conditions from yourself when you ACTIVATE a burst skill (no need to hit then) based on adrenaline level: 1, 2, 3. Gain adrenaline when hit (1).Why? Conditionning the suppression on hit is frustrating because of blind. Like this, the trait allows the warrior to mitigate that condition.Alright. Make the conditions remove before the hit connects, and push blind to the highest priority rather than the LIFO priority.
• Rousing Resilience: Gain +1000 toughness for 8s and heals (2536) when you break out of stun. Apply 25% of the duration and heal if no stun was removed.Why? Adding a partial effect upon activating skills with the break out of stun effect (shake it off, balanced stance, frenzy, dolyak signet, stomb, outrage, headbutt,...) is to give the trait more utility when fighting ennemies that doesn't use control, or when the skill is required at another key moment, somehow making it less of a "niche trait"Interesting... I'm not sure the 25% benefit would be enticing enough though to use it outside of a stun break though, 50% though I would use it without breaking a stun.

Shield Master: Remove the might gain on block and replace it with an effect that reduces damage from aoe fields by 10% while wielding a Shield.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:We get healing via condi cleanse with Tactics, so I do not think they'll double dip that functionality. Why not add in some condi damage reduction while you have regeneration?

The "shrug it off" traits applies to damaging condition so that's not technically the same effect but your point is fair. I don't think adding a bonus to regeneration is a solution, since warrior have practically zero access to it. Maybe a cash 7% condi damage reduction? Not sure.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

• Cull the weaks
  Increase damage against weakened foe by 7%. Increase weakness duration by 2s when you inflict it. 3s if ennemy health is below 50%.
  Why? As some pointed out, inflicting weakness to a foe already half dead has little use. So i think, keeping the idea to finish the ennemy, that enhancing the condition itself would be more productive
  I think this extra effect would be hard to implement in practice. What might work better is to apply weakness on a critical hit, either 33% chance no ICD or 100% chance with a 5s ICD. This way you can apply it more than once on someone if needed.

The issue I have with critical hit and cooldown is that it prevents group application. I wanted to somehow keep the idea of progressively erode the ennemy and finishing him off, but a 33% chance could work as well.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Adrenal Health:

When hitting with a burst skill, you gain barrier based on adrenaline level (2400, 3600, 4800 ; 1.0, 1.5, 2.0). For 5s, your healing increases by 33%.

Why? Passive healing being outdated, i'd rather give the warrior something that gives proper sustain in a more active way. The second affect is to give a chance of recovery after the burst, in the same core idea.

Interesting, but Warriors love that healing. But more barrier would also be nice... The coefficients might be too high on them though.

I like it too, but having immediate protection seems more appropriate these days. Numbers are of course subject to discussion. Also, on second thought i would put either a 25s cooldown for the second effect, or restrict it to healing skill (to avoid a permanent effect due to berserker and spelllbreaker spam)

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

• Defy pain:
  Cast lesser endure pain when your health come back above 50%. (Lesser endure pain now last 4s and grant 50% damage reduction). Cooldown 30s, 90s in pvp.
  Why? Making the trait more active and associate it with the idea of recovery. 4s of serious protection also seems more useful than 2s of invulnerability
  I say keep it at the 50% threshold that it is now. Why not add in condition damage reduction as well?

I would love to add condi damage reduction, but that would mean rework endure pain entirely, and though it was initially designed for a burst-dominating damage meta, i think keeping it as one-type-of-damage specialized makes it more significative.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

• Armored attack:
  Grant yourself protection (2s) whenever you grant yourself retaliation. When stroke, retaliation damage you inflict back is increased by your current damage reduction percentage (note: blocking is considered a 100% damage reduction).(Ex: being hit from distance right after the burst (53% damage reduction) while inflict back 640 damage, 426 in pvp)
  Why? Adding some defense and enhancing retaliation on this trait line. See spiked armor for the full picture. Somehow punishes for attacking the warrior when fully protected, which makes sense
  I like the protection when granting oneself retaliation. I think the secondary bit is complicated. Just add a rider that retaliation on the warrior deals +X% more damage.

Yeah. I somehow wanted to linked protection and retaliation damage but that would last too shortly. That way, i had a way to turn the warrior armor into offense, an idea I like and that suits the theme pretty well.So, eventually turned into a +20% retaliation damage

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

• Sundering mace:
  Stuns, dazes and knock downs durations increase by 20%. Mace sills recharge is reduced by 20%. 10% of your toughness is converted into power while wielding a mace.
  Why? Making this trait mor ein line with other weapon traits that have both a generic bonus and one specific to the weapon. I transferred the previous armored attack effect (a rather weak one) to preserve the importance of toughness somehow
  Alright, not like power helps mace anymore though.

I didn't really know what to add. We already have traits that increase crit chance and damage on disabled foes. Cull the weaks do the same tricks for weakness. Since most other weapon traits evolve around a stat bonus, i thought it could work.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Spiked Armor:

grant yourself retaliation (5s) when hitting with a burst skill (applies only once). Reduce incoming damage by 10% while having retaliation

Why? Give the possibility to have retaliation for longer while making it more active, since it's the ONLY trait/skill of the warrior that grant it. Note the synergy with armored attack.

Gives more control over when we get retaliation, so that is cool.

That's the idea. I might add a 8s cooldown to prevent spam with berserker and spellbreaker though (especially combined with armored attack)

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

• Last Stand
  (likely renamed). Increase stances duration by 50%. Stances grant vigor (6s) upon activation. Dodging while in a stance grant you stability (x1, 3s) (possible cooldown in pvp).
  Why? duration bonus more in line with the soulbeast stance trait. Replace the passive effect with an active effect more in line with vigor that also mitigate the conflict of use of dodging in a stance
  Sure lets give warrior something nice for once. Not sure if the stability is what works though. Could be retaliation to play more into the traitline, and thus also gain protection.

It's mainly to keep consistency within the trait line. We have one for movement-impeding condition, one for burst, so initial goal of "last stand" to protect from control made sense.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

• Cleansing ire
  Remove conditions from yourself when you ACTIVATE a burst skill (no need to hit then) based on adrenaline level: 1, 2, 3. Gain adrenaline when hit (1).
  Why? Conditionning the suppression on hit is frustrating because of blind. Like this, the trait allows the warrior to mitigate that condition.
  Alright. Make the conditions remove before the hit connects, and push blind to the highest priority rather than the LIFO priority.

I'm not sure if such priorities exist but it would be fine indeed.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

• Rousing Resilience:
  Gain +1000 toughness for 8s and heals (2536) when you break out of stun. Apply 25% of the duration and heal if no stun was removed.
  Why? Adding a partial effect upon activating skills with the break out of stun effect (shake it off, balanced stance, frenzy, dolyak signet, stomb, outrage, headbutt,...) is to give the trait more utility when fighting ennemies that doesn't use control, or when the skill is required at another key moment, somehow making it less of a "niche trait"
  Interesting... I'm not sure the 25% benefit would be enticing enough though to use it outside of a stun break though, 50% though I would use it without breaking a stun.

Hard to say. 25% seems a bit weak, but 50% would be definitely too strong in my opinion (main fault to outrage that said. With a cooldown going to 10s to 15s, and proper improved effects, that could be fine.)

Thanks for feedback!

@sarangajit.5648 said:Shield Master: Remove the might gain on block and replace it with an effect that reduces damage from aoe fields by 10% while wielding a Shield.

I don't think there are any traits that specifically apply to fields, and though I definitely the interest, that would make it quite specialized.

@Lametoile.7394 @"Lan Deathrider.5910"Overall I do like these as changes, I do think maybe think of something else for Defy Pain as passive procs are what made people whine and complain and cry the most when it came to Warriors, and to be fair...ANet doesn't design passive anything very well, as is evident by all of the traits they "disabled" by adding 300 sec ICDs to them. All of them were super unhealthy for PvP, and I do mean all of them.

Defy Pain could, instead, add an additional (non-stacking) 10% damage reduction effect for the duration of a stance or potentially have it apply for a short duration (4 to 5 seconds) after a stance ends. This could still fit with the trait and actually fit into a more active use criteria that Defy Pain sorely needed from the beginning. This also focuses the Defense tree not only more on actual defense but also associates it much more with Stances. For this to work without it becoming severely overtuned, though, ANet needs to address the issue where one could run the 10% damage reduction food along with the trait (as well as the suggested 10% DR while Retaliation is active). They need to make damage reduction effects not stack, because that is already an issue that makes Holo tankier than it really has any right to be when in Forge mode, at least in WvW. 10% damage reduction food + 15% damage reduction from Light Density Amplifier is 25% damage reduction...on top of 40% damage reduction from any active Protection boons on them. Its ridiculous.

I do want to address something about adding Barrier to Adrenal Health, though...thematically it can actually make sense, and we all know how much ANet just LOVES their "themes" on classes, as one could potentially "shrug off" the effects of damage during a rush of adrenaline so mechanically Barrier can illustrate that effect without needing to persist with passive healing. Passive healing having been neutered significantly since February.

Another thing to note about that, however, is that it would be more homogenization of classes because it would be spreading access to Barrier to yet another class as they have been consistently doing since PoF launched. Now while that can potentially be seen as a problem, ANet doesn't seem to be hopping off that train anytime soon so at this point fuck it, just give Warriors more Barrier.

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:@Lametoile.7394 @"Lan Deathrider.5910"Overall I do like these as changes, I do think maybe think of something else for Defy Pain as passive procs are what made people whine and complain and cry the most when it came to Warriors, and to be fair...ANet doesn't design passive anything very well, as is evident by all of the traits they "disabled" by adding 300 sec ICDs to them. All of them were super unhealthy for PvP, and I do mean all of them.

Defy Pain could, instead, add an additional (non-stacking) 10% damage reduction effect for the duration of a stance or potentially have it apply for a short duration (4 to 5 seconds) after a stance ends. This could still fit with the trait and actually fit into a more active use criteria that Defy Pain sorely needed from the beginning. This also focuses the Defense tree not only more on actual defense but also associates it much more with Stances. For this to work without it becoming severely overtuned, though, ANet needs to address the issue where one could run the 10% damage reduction food along with the trait (as well as the suggested 10% DR while Retaliation is active). They need to make damage reduction effects not stack, because that is already an issue that makes Holo tankier than it really has any right to be when in Forge mode, at least in WvW. 10% damage reduction food + 15% damage reduction from Light Density Amplifier is 25% damage reduction...on top of 40% damage reduction from any active Protection boons on them. Its ridiculous.

I do want to address something about adding Barrier to Adrenal Health, though...thematically it can actually make sense, and we all know how much ANet just LOVES their "themes" on classes, as one could potentially "shrug off" the effects of damage during a rush of adrenaline so mechanically Barrier can illustrate that effect without needing to persist with passive healing. Passive healing having been neutered significantly since February.

Another thing to note about that, however, is that it would be more homogenization of classes because it would be spreading access to Barrier to yet another class as they have been consistently doing since PoF launched. Now while that can potentially be seen as a problem, ANet doesn't seem to be hopping off that train anytime soon so at this point kitten it, just give Warriors more Barrier.

Well, they gave Warrior Barrier on Warhorn so that cat is out of the bag.

I disagree about damage reduction not stacking. What they need is to make requirements more stringent on access to certain reductions. Holo gets a lot of protection from shield, which is a fair bit. In this case it's 2s when you grant yourself retaliation, so a bit more balanced.

I'm ambivalent on defy pain being active or passive, but in this case it's 50% reduction not invulnerable, so I feel the passive works.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:@Lametoile.7394 @Lan Deathrider.5910Overall I do like these as changes, I do think

maybe

think of something else for Defy Pain as passive procs are what made people whine and complain and cry

the most

when it came to Warriors, and to be fair...ANet doesn't design passive anything very well, as is evident by all of the traits they "disabled" by adding 300 sec ICDs to them. All of them were super unhealthy for PvP, and I do mean all of them.

Defy Pain could, instead, add an additional (non-stacking) 10% damage reduction effect for the duration of a stance or potentially have it apply for a short duration (4 to 5 seconds) after a stance ends. This could still fit with the trait and actually fit into a more active use criteria that Defy Pain sorely needed from the beginning. This also focuses the Defense tree not only more on actual

defense

but also associates it much more with Stances. For this to work without it becoming

severely

overtuned, though, ANet needs to address the issue where one could run the 10% damage reduction food along with the trait (as well as the suggested 10% DR while Retaliation is active). They need to make damage reduction effects

not stack

, because that is already an issue that makes Holo tankier than it really has any right to be when in Forge mode, at least in WvW. 10% damage reduction food + 15% damage reduction from Light Density Amplifier is 25% damage reduction...on top of 40% damage reduction from any active Protection boons on them. Its ridiculous.

I do want to address something about adding Barrier to Adrenal Health, though...thematically it can actually make sense, and we all know how much ANet just

LOVES

their "themes" on classes, as one could potentially "shrug off" the effects of damage during a rush of adrenaline so

mechanically

Barrier can illustrate that effect without needing to persist with passive healing. Passive healing having been neutered significantly since February.

Another thing to note about that, however, is that it would be more homogenization of classes because it would be spreading access to Barrier to yet another class as they have been consistently doing since PoF launched. Now while that can potentially be seen as a problem, ANet doesn't seem to be hopping off that train anytime soon so at this point

kitten it

, just give Warriors more Barrier.

True, it isn't an invuln, more specifically power damage negation as conditions still deal damage through Endure Pain, but they very much need to steer clear of passive procs like that. Engineer still has its Elixir S passive but I still think they need to rework that even more, because with how it procs Barrier and protection it is still as oppressive on Holosmith.

A better idea for it would be to make it a more active effect, like when breaking a stun it applies the barrier and protection as opposed to using it at a certain health percentage. That way it will be tied a more active use situation, breaking a stun, while still maintaining the "theme" of an "Emergency Elixir" so as to safeguard themselves for a short duration after saving themselves from being burst while CC'd.

The more design choices they make that promote active use gameplay the better, its much more pleasant to play around those types of mechanics as opposed to just trying to brute force your way through the previous, and even still current, passive procs in the game. Thats really all that boiled down to. Whenever someone would fight me on Warrior, or most other Warriors, before the passive nerfs they'd just brute force their way through your health and force proc Last Stand to get both of them out of the way and then they focus on kiting and damaging. That didn't feel great to play against or be the recipient of such tactics.

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:@Lametoile.7394 @"Lan Deathrider.5910"Overall I do like these as changes, I do think maybe think of something else for Defy Pain as passive procs are what made people whine and complain and cry the most when it came to Warriors, and to be fair...ANet doesn't design passive anything very well, as is evident by all of the traits they "disabled" by adding 300 sec ICDs to them. All of them were super unhealthy for PvP, and I do mean all of them.

Defy Pain could, instead, add an additional (non-stacking) 10% damage reduction effect for the duration of a stance or potentially have it apply for a short duration (4 to 5 seconds) after a stance ends. This could still fit with the trait and actually fit into a more active use criteria that Defy Pain sorely needed from the beginning. This also focuses the Defense tree not only more on actual defense but also associates it much more with Stances. For this to work without it becoming severely overtuned, though, ANet needs to address the issue where one could run the 10% damage reduction food along with the trait (as well as the suggested 10% DR while Retaliation is active). They need to make damage reduction effects not stack, because that is already an issue that makes Holo tankier than it really has any right to be when in Forge mode, at least in WvW. 10% damage reduction food + 15% damage reduction from Light Density Amplifier is 25% damage reduction...on top of 40% damage reduction from any active Protection boons on them. Its ridiculous.

I do want to address something about adding Barrier to Adrenal Health, though...thematically it can actually make sense, and we all know how much ANet just LOVES their "themes" on classes, as one could potentially "shrug off" the effects of damage during a rush of adrenaline so mechanically Barrier can illustrate that effect without needing to persist with passive healing. Passive healing having been neutered significantly since February.

Another thing to note about that, however, is that it would be more homogenization of classes because it would be spreading access to Barrier to yet another class as they have been consistently doing since PoF launched. Now while that can potentially be seen as a problem, ANet doesn't seem to be hopping off that train anytime soon so at this point kitten it, just give Warriors more Barrier.

Thanks for feedback

Problem is we've already have a stance related-trait. We could have "lesser endure pain" activate upon stance activation but that would make both defiant stance and endure pain irrelevant. Also Rousing resilience already fit the role of the "effect when you break out of stun" trait.Also, in that configuration, we already have 3 traits evolving around pure damage reduction.

So my possibilities woul be either one of those:

• Cast "lesser endure pain" after you successfully block an attack (cooldown 60s) But that would mean it would only work with MH mace, shield and OH sword
• Your damage reductions also apply half to condi damage (so you'll get 5% from spiked armor, 16% from protection and 50% from endure pain) Appropriate but somehow go against the theme of the trait line that evolves around brute attacks
• Cast "lesser endure pain" when you rally, finish off an ennemy or revive an ally (yeah i know revive traits fell out of flavour)
• Cast "lesser endure pain" when one of your stances ends (cooldown 60s, 90s in pvp) Most promising one I would say. But could have a bit OP synergy with "Last Stand", ending in long vigor and stability duration

Question. Why are we hung up on Lesser Endure Pain?

Why not just give a straight benefit for Defy Pain? Like a persistent damage reduction and condition damage reduction? I know what I said up above on making such things easy to have, but here me out on this. Tie it to a stat maybe, like you gain 10% damage and condi damage reduction per 1000 toughness, split for competitive modes if need be. Or just make it tied to condition damage and have no split. I kind of like the idea of having a trait that allows toughness to reduce condition damage, but part of me feels like this would need to cover both damage types for it to be 'Defy Pain.' Warrior doesn't that much active sustain compared to other classes, so there has to be at least some passive sustain, and 15-30% less damage received from all damage sources would go a long way in helping the class. I'd say split 10% per 1000 toughness for PvE and WvW and 5% per 1000 toughness for PvP. Yes Rousing Resilience would count, so would food buffs and stacking sigils and signets.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Question. Why are we hung up on Lesser Endure Pain?

Why not just give a straight benefit for Defy Pain? Like a persistent damage reduction and condition damage reduction? I know what I said up above on making such things easy to have, but here me out on this. Tie it to a stat maybe, like you gain 10% damage and condi damage reduction per 1000 toughness, split for competitive modes if need be. Or just make it tied to condition damage and have no split. I kind of like the idea of having a trait that allows toughness to reduce condition damage, but part of me feels like this would need to cover both damage types for it to be 'Defy Pain.' Warrior doesn't that much active sustain compared to other classes, so there has to be at least some passive sustain, and 15-30% less damage received from all damage sources would go a long way in helping the class. I'd say split 10% per 1000 toughness for PvE and WvW and 5% per 1000 toughness for PvP. Yes Rousing Resilience would count, so would food buffs and stacking sigils and signets.

I wouldn't change the way toughness work for direct damage cause that would go against a core mechanic. But let's say we convert 1% of toughness as a condi damage percent reduction? Now we're talking.

I should think about a different secondary effect for sundering mace though.

@Lametoile.7394 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Question. Why are we hung up on Lesser Endure Pain?

Why not just give a straight benefit for Defy Pain? Like a persistent damage reduction and condition damage reduction? I know what I said up above on making such things easy to have, but here me out on this. Tie it to a stat maybe, like you gain 10% damage and condi damage reduction per 1000 toughness, split for competitive modes if need be. Or just make it tied to condition damage and have no split. I kind of like the idea of having a trait that allows toughness to reduce condition damage, but part of me feels like this would need to cover both damage types for it to be 'Defy Pain.' Warrior doesn't that much active sustain compared to other classes, so there has to be at least some passive sustain, and 15-30% less damage received from all damage sources would go a long way in helping the class. I'd say split 10% per 1000 toughness for PvE and WvW and 5% per 1000 toughness for PvP. Yes Rousing Resilience would count, so would food buffs and stacking sigils and signets.

...guys changing this traits slightly won't change the current state of the warrior, just like how they added cripple to sword 4 and might to mace 4. they are not going to help warrior. what warrior need is skill change. maybe new traits that change certain weapon skills like other classes have.

like defense overall isn't bad at all, except master traits being a bit limited, if you are running condition without mace then you are limited, but nothing much else...

@felix.2386 said:...guys changing this traits slightly won't change the current state of the warrior, just like how they added cripple to sword 4 and might to mace 4. they are not going to help warrior. what warrior need is skill change. maybe new traits that change certain weapon skills like other classes have.

like defense overall isn't bad at all, except master traits being a bit limited, if you are running condition without mace then you are limited, but nothing much else...

You are not wrong, and that would be a great way to replace dead weapon skills.

I'd like Dual Wielding to change skill 5 of each OH weapon.Blademaster could change Flurry to something that isn't rooted. There are plenty of threads on what people would like, but even a non rooted version would be fine.Sundering Mace could change Counter Blow to something better and more offensive like Fierce Blow.Axe Mastery could upgrade Whirling Axe to a more useful version for competitive modes, like an expanded radius, shorter channel time, and a cripple. Although Axe 5 would be fine if it gave the actual movement speed increase, but it seems to be bugged. Why not just update Axe 5 to give superspeed for 4s?

Forceful Greatsword could change 100Blades to a non rooted skill or add a flipover skill that either comes before100B or after it.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Lametoile.7394 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Question. Why are we hung up on Lesser Endure Pain?

Why not just give a straight benefit for Defy Pain? Like a persistent damage reduction and condition damage reduction? I know what I said up above on making such things easy to have, but here me out on this. Tie it to a stat maybe, like you gain 10% damage and condi damage reduction per 1000 toughness, split for competitive modes if need be. Or just make it tied to condition damage and have no split. I kind of like the idea of having a trait that allows toughness to reduce condition damage, but part of me feels like this would need to cover both damage types for it to be 'Defy Pain.' Warrior doesn't that much active sustain compared to other classes, so there has to be at least some passive sustain, and 15-30% less damage received from all damage sources would go a long way in helping the class. I'd say split 10% per 1000 toughness for PvE and WvW and 5% per 1000 toughness for PvP. Yes Rousing Resilience would count, so would food buffs and stacking sigils and signets.

@Lametoile.7394 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Lametoile.7394 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Question. Why are we hung up on Lesser Endure Pain?

Why not just give a straight benefit for Defy Pain? Like a persistent damage reduction and condition damage reduction? I know what I said up above on making such things easy to have, but here me out on this. Tie it to a stat maybe, like you gain 10% damage and condi damage reduction per 1000 toughness, split for competitive modes if need be. Or just make it tied to condition damage and have no split. I kind of like the idea of having a trait that allows toughness to reduce condition damage, but part of me feels like this would need to cover both damage types for it to be 'Defy Pain.' Warrior doesn't that much active sustain compared to other classes, so there has to be at least some passive sustain, and 15-30% less damage received from all damage sources would go a long way in helping the class. I'd say split 10% per 1000 toughness for PvE and WvW and 5% per 1000 toughness for PvP. Yes Rousing Resilience would count, so would food buffs and stacking sigils and signets.

Its more of a throw back to when Merciless Hammer applied confusion. Some people want it back in some sort of way. That and with Body Blow traited 4 of 6 mace skills already apply damage conditions. That and in competitive play mace/mace might as well be a noodle.

Honestly I'd like if Warrior got confusion back somewhere. I'd prefer on Unsuspecting Foe in Arms, and have it applied when you strike a CCd foe, no ICD, but this also seemed like a place were it could be added back into the game.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Lametoile.7394 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Lametoile.7394 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Question. Why are we hung up on Lesser Endure Pain?

Why not just give a straight benefit for Defy Pain? Like a persistent damage reduction and condition damage reduction? I know what I said up above on making such things easy to have, but here me out on this. Tie it to a stat maybe, like you gain 10% damage and condi damage reduction per 1000 toughness, split for competitive modes if need be. Or just make it tied to condition damage and have no split. I kind of like the idea of having a trait that allows toughness to reduce condition damage, but part of me feels like this would need to cover both damage types for it to be 'Defy Pain.' Warrior doesn't that much active sustain compared to other classes, so there has to be at least some passive sustain, and 15-30% less damage received from all damage sources would go a long way in helping the class. I'd say split 10% per 1000 toughness for PvE and WvW and 5% per 1000 toughness for PvP. Yes Rousing Resilience would count, so would food buffs and stacking sigils and signets.

Well that makes it unique for sure, but i don't see in any way what synergy it could bring. Mace isn't very fast to strike to begin with. Other one-handed weapon traits are meant to bring something to both weapons when used.

I personnally get an idea: disabling a foe with a mace reduce recharge on weapon skills by 2s(Give more interest to pommel bash and bring something different. Wether you go for torch, shield or axe in the off-hand, that could serve. In theme: creating an opportunity by disabling the foe before unleashing an opportunity strike.)

@Lametoile.7394 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Lametoile.7394 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Lametoile.7394 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Question. Why are we hung up on Lesser Endure Pain?

Why not just give a straight benefit for Defy Pain? Like a persistent damage reduction and condition damage reduction? I know what I said up above on making such things easy to have, but here me out on this. Tie it to a stat maybe, like you gain 10% damage and condi damage reduction per 1000 toughness, split for competitive modes if need be. Or just make it tied to condition damage and have no split. I kind of like the idea of having a trait that allows toughness to reduce condition damage, but part of me feels like this would need to cover both damage types for it to be 'Defy Pain.' Warrior doesn't that much active sustain compared to other classes, so there has to be at least some passive sustain, and 15-30% less damage received from all damage sources would go a long way in helping the class. I'd say split 10% per 1000 toughness for PvE and WvW and 5% per 1000 toughness for PvP. Yes Rousing Resilience would count, so would food buffs and stacking sigils and signets.

Like I said I have my preference for where confusion can be added back, this was just another option

Updated consquently of feedback

In addition to changes, some thoughts about defense-related weapon:

Mace:

• Skull crack: increase damage by 20%
• auto-attack; no changes
• counterblow: now grant adrenaline(2) every 0.5 second while channeling
• pommel bash: in addition to previous effect: reduce current weapon skills recharge by 1.5s when interrupting a foe
• Crushing blow: no changes
• Tremor: Replace the projectile shock wave by a cone shock wave (range 450)

Shield:A generic consideration for all profession: double the shield defense bonus (I'd actually wished it has something more useful, but having an attack+defense number equivalent to other weapon attack score seems to be the minimum

• Shield bash: In addition to the actual skill: activating it while channeling shield stance increases damage by 50% and grant retaliation (4s)
• Shield stance: change this skill into an ammunition one. Channel time is reduced from 3s to 2s. Skill cooldown is 8s. Ammunition cooldown is 20s (25s in pvp)

@Lametoile.7394 said:In addition to changes, some thoughts about defense-related weapon:

Mace:

• Skull crack: increase damage by 20%
• auto-attack; no changes
• counterblow: now grant adrenaline(2) every 0.5 second while channeling
• pommel bash: in addition to previous effect: reduce current weapon skills recharge by 1.5s when interrupting a foe
• Crushing blow: no changes
• Tremor: Replace the projectile shock wave by a cone shock wave (range 450)

Shield:A generic consideration for all profession: double the shield defense bonus (I'd actually wished it has something more useful, but having an attack+defense number equivalent to other weapon attack score seems to be the minimum

• Shield bash: In addition to the actual skill: activating it while channeling shield stance increases damage by 50% and grant retaliation (4s)
• Shield stance: change this skill into an ammunition one. Channel time is reduced from 3s to 2s. Skill cooldown is 8s. Ammunition cooldown is 20s (25s in pvp)

The Shield Bash addition would be nice, but might overload the skill too much considering how strong Shield is as an option already. Same vein of thought for the change to Shield Stance, it is already a strong defensive skill and making it ammunition based would be overloading it.

Ideally ANet needs to walk back the CC damage changes a little bit, not to say they should go back to what they were, but they should at least have a 0.40 to 0.45 coefficient so that they do damage but not so much that a crit with the skill results in a significant chunk of health being taken away from the target, which was the exact issue with Bull's Charge. It was an evade, CC, mobility and damage skill because of its 2.0 coefficient which made it hit for like 5,000+ rather consistently. So if you cut that coefficient to a 0.45, for example, the most you might hit is within the range of 1,000 to 2,000 damage, even with a crit, potentially slightly higher with enough Might stacks against your standard Light armor player with 1,967 Armor. If you factor in other modifiers you get from traits, that number does climb a bit higher but it doesn't seem like it gets too much higher even with those modifiers. A bit above 2,000 damage but not anywhere in the ballpark of what it was before the CC changes.

Overall, I really like those changes. This could give a new fresh start to Defense trait line and make it more active.

I was thinking of some little things about certain traits.

Shield Master could give a toughness stacking effect each time an attack is blocked with a cooldown of 1 second (so 3 times if you block with a shield, but is not limited to shield). Remove the might.

OR

Glue Might makes Right into Shield Master and replace might makes right with something new.

Defy Pain... I like the new change tough I kinda like some sort of "safety net" when beeing low on health. If anyone played Dark Souls, we could add an effect similar to Blue Tearstone Ring (raise defense by 50% when hp is below 20%).

I'm not really good at desinging stuff, but I like to throw off ideas from time to time.

Defy pain or Last stand could be effect Immune to critical hits like Balanced Stance when you gain x boon (stability,protection, retaliation and these boons should have a way to be activated from other traits so it has some synergy) or activate something like burst skill,breaking stun or using stance skills.Armored attack should be rolled in one of the other traits so it frees up space for a new trait, something for condition management since the other rows work like that direct damage management,condition management, utility/boon management, maybe under the effects of Resistance the longest duration condition is removed every x seconds.Sundering Mace should be reworked as a whole since it doesn't work at all and it was skipped on the weapon trait update so it doesn't have global effect like the rest, also fun fact it doesn't add its effect on the burst skill.