Bobby Stein (dev) comment on Raid — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Bobby Stein (dev) comment on Raid

I repost this here for those who don't check reddit :
https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/hnokw2/ive_been_enjoying_raids_a_lot_has_arenanet/fxft1wk/

"raid team as you knew it before doesnt exist anymore, they were either laid off or catapulted to other companies"

To clarify: The original raid team members did move into new positions on various teams (management, lead, LW, or expac). Some are still at the studio but a few have moved on to other opportunities. This is pretty normal industry stuff.

GW2 has a vibrant community and we're always looking at ways to keep the game engaging for people. Raids, like Living World, fractals, etc. are constantly being evaluated. Right now we're focused on finishing the Icebrood Saga and the expansion (among other things) but please continue sharing your ideas and letting us know the kinds of things you want in the game. I can't guarantee a particular outcome but it's important that we know your thoughts as they help us weigh decisions. Thanks.

At least it gives us some answers (even if we don't like them). Thanks to Bobby Stein!

EDIT : another answer
https://dd.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/hoauzq/bobby_stein_on_the_future_of_raids_a_reddit/fxhecio/

Responding to the OP: I never said raids were "abandoned" or what the future holds for that gametype or any other. I merely said, "We're working on LW and expac right now" and kept it vague because that's pretty much all I can talk about. Titling this thread "Bobby Stein on the future of raids" is a big exaggeration. Serves me right for posting, I guess. ;)

But let's focus this discussion on the players for a sec. This is purely to spur discussion and not to set false expectations, BTW. I just want to read your thoughts. This is not an official poll or anything like that. Just a chat among players.

What is it that you like about raids in general? Why do you play raids (in any game) in the first place? If we were to build another raid, what would you like to see? Any story you'd like experience?

Carcharoth Lucian/Mini Chibii
Ruin of Surmia world
PvE : [CdL] Les Chasseurs De Légendes
WvW : [MIMs] Mobile Ingénieuse Et Marteau

<13

Comments

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yea kinda what people here figured out happened aswell, kinda sad that they cant use the forums to give us this info tho.

  • Honestly, I'd really rather them just say directly what we already know deep down - that raids are done and no longer being developed. Feels like they're on the same status as dungeons, and it won't be long for strikes to go the same way.

    Would just feel better to be put out of our misery rather than waiting for another year or two with even the smallest twinge of hope. Bobby more or less said it here without really stating it outright, though, I guess. Just for that little bit of wriggle-room to not speak in absolutes.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 10, 2020

    Responding to the OP: I never said raids were "abandoned" or what the future holds for that gametype or any other. I merely said, "We're working on LW and expac right now" and kept it vague because that's pretty much all I can talk about. Titling this thread "Bobby Stein on the future of raids" is a big exaggeration. Serves me right for posting, I guess. ;)

    But let's focus this discussion on the players for a sec. This is purely to spur discussion and not to set false expectations, BTW. I just want to read your thoughts. This is not an official poll or anything like that. Just a chat among players.

    What is it that you like about raids in general? Why do you play raids (in any game) in the first place? If we were to build another raid, what would you like to see? Any story you'd like experience?

    Was a reply from the dev(Bobby) somewhere lower in the comment. But yes, most players anticipated and have a general idea on what's said more or less. Eg.Shortage of resources, previous raid dev working on other stuff etc. Not surprised or new_s.

    Even for a (many said popular) short instance content like fractals hardly gets an addition. Somewhat can draw a picture there's not enough resources for Raids; a bigger instance content or any other contents(at least no plans and resources to spare for now sadly :anguished:).

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can't guarantee a particular outcome but it's important that we know your thoughts as they help us weigh decisions. Thanks.

    Interesting, these forums were telling us that they have all the data they need to make decisions. Why would they need to know our thoughts if they already have all the metrics?

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 10, 2020

    At least dungeons, Fractals and raids are still in better shape than the competitive game modes.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 15k hours, ~27k AP | ♀♥♀
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  • edit : adding another answer

    Carcharoth Lucian/Mini Chibii
    Ruin of Surmia world
    PvE : [CdL] Les Chasseurs De Légendes
    WvW : [MIMs] Mobile Ingénieuse Et Marteau

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 10, 2020

    please continue sharing your ideas and letting us know the kinds of things you want in the game. I can't guarantee a particular outcome but it's important that we know your thoughts as they help us weigh decisions

    Don't be fooled, this is pure corporate speech. If they really wanted to collect player feedback for their decision making they would have just opened a thread asking for general ideas on topic X and open another thread with a poll after narrowing their options down (not to mention that there is already more than enough feedback out there). This however is generally not how they proceed when it comes to addressing issues / developing new content which tells you everything you need to know.

  • Dahkeus.8243Dahkeus.8243 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I really hope that raids don't get permanently forgotten. I think it's definitely realistic to have releases very far apart since it's a game type with a much smaller playerbase, but there are still people who play them and this game doesn't need any more abandoned mechanics or game modes.

    It's already frustrating that we have things like the entire dungeon system, stronghold in PvP, and other aspects of the game that are pretty much abandoned. Guild Halls are pretty much there as well except for the occasional decoration release.

    I get that developer resources are limited and need to be prioritized to what pays the bills and what has the most player participation, but I hope that devs also consider the impact of having parts of the game abandoned so frequently.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    I really hope that raids don't get permanently forgotten. I think it's definitely realistic to have releases very far apart since it's a game type with a much smaller playerbase, but there are still people who play them and this game doesn't need any more abandoned mechanics or game modes.

    It's already frustrating that we have things like the entire dungeon system, stronghold in PvP, and other aspects of the game that are pretty much abandoned. Guild Halls are pretty much there as well except for the occasional decoration release.

    I get that developer resources are limited and need to be prioritized to what pays the bills and what has the most player participation, but I hope that devs also consider the impact of having parts of the game abandoned so frequently.

    Honestly guild halls are decent since they get something each expansion. I really want to see more guild missions, I very quickly became bored with the weekly events we were running. Even the same content like tracking down wanted npcs and finding hidden areas would be amazing, just in more maps, put some stuff in the living world and expansion maps

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    I get that developer resources are limited and need to be prioritized to what pays the bills and what has the most player participation, but I hope that devs also consider the impact of having parts of the game abandoned so frequently.

    I'm a big supporter of making sure this idea gets heard. I also understand the need to set priorities, and that not everything can be done at once. But ANet's great willingness to completely abandon content (instead of gathering feedback and reworking it) will extract a mounting cost over time. As time goes on, Tyria will get littered with ever increasing piles of systems and projects that have potential, but were left to die. In contrast, games that stick to their guns, reiterate, and improve systems have the opposite: the number of non-working systems shrinks over time, and more and more of the game systems become relevant. It's hard to watch this happen to GW2, because the devs have some pretty interesting ideas and obviously care about constructing a consistent game world, but just abandon things so quickly.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 10, 2020

    I think the issue is not the statement itself (although abandoning content never strikes me as a wise idea), but that there's the asking for ideas and feedback. The forums are replete with this for raids and other like minded content. They have all the info and more they could ever desire... if only they engaged, read and acknowledged it

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 10, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    I can't guarantee a particular outcome but it's important that we know your thoughts as they help us weigh decisions. Thanks.

    Interesting, these forums were telling us that they have all the data they need to make decisions. Why would they need to know our thoughts if they already have all the metrics?

    Because, like i always kept bringing up whenever someone mentioned metrics, those can only tell you what is happening, but they usually don't tell you why is it happening.
    They may have all the metrics, but they still lack enough info to be able to properly interpret them.

    Notice, by the way, that he didn't say that knowing our thoughts or not has any impact on what they're doing. Also, they are clearly only asking raiders for their thoughts in there, and they've already admitted there's not enough players in that group to influence dev priorities anymore.

    They just don't like to make any more definite statements about future content, and commit themselves too strongly to certain design directions. Especially when talking about things that they aren;t doing. After all, almost everything is on the table somewhere. Even if some things are gathering dust somewhere near the edges.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 10, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Also, they are clearly only asking raiders for their thoughts in there

    Yes and no, he was asking "Why do you play raids (in any game) in the first place?" and there are many players who raid in other games but avoid doing so in GW2.

    Also, notice how many answers players give don't actually require raids but they (and the devs for that matter) seem to falsely equate raids (and at least in regards to the devs I'd assume also instanced content in general) with a higher level of difficulty which is why raids in GW2 will always be niche content and also why stuff like OW content will always be rather bland.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This still tells them only a reason why people that do play raids play them. It doesn't tell them why the number of those people is too small to warrant supporting them, because they were not asking about why someone might not be doing them.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Dahkeus.8243Dahkeus.8243 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fenom.9457 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    I really hope that raids don't get permanently forgotten. I think it's definitely realistic to have releases very far apart since it's a game type with a much smaller playerbase, but there are still people who play them and this game doesn't need any more abandoned mechanics or game modes.

    It's already frustrating that we have things like the entire dungeon system, stronghold in PvP, and other aspects of the game that are pretty much abandoned. Guild Halls are pretty much there as well except for the occasional decoration release.

    I get that developer resources are limited and need to be prioritized to what pays the bills and what has the most player participation, but I hope that devs also consider the impact of having parts of the game abandoned so frequently.

    Honestly guild halls are decent since they get something each expansion. I really want to see more guild missions, I very quickly became bored with the weekly events we were running. Even the same content like tracking down wanted npcs and finding hidden areas would be amazing, just in more maps, put some stuff in the living world and expansion maps

    Great point. Guild missions are a much better example than guild halls and I say that as someone that still runs guild missions relatively regularly with my guild. It can be a great activity for guild members who are newer to the game, but it's tough to garner interest from more veteran members because the commendations are nigh pointless to them and many of them are simply burnt out from doing it so much.

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    I get that developer resources are limited and need to be prioritized to what pays the bills and what has the most player participation, but I hope that devs also consider the impact of having parts of the game abandoned so frequently.

    I'm a big supporter of making sure this idea gets heard. I also understand the need to set priorities, and that not everything can be done at once. But ANet's great willingness to completely abandon content (instead of gathering feedback and reworking it) will extract a mounting cost over time. As time goes on, Tyria will get littered with ever increasing piles of systems and projects that have potential, but were left to die. In contrast, games that stick to their guns, reiterate, and improve systems have the opposite: the number of non-working systems shrinks over time, and more and more of the game systems become relevant. It's hard to watch this happen to GW2, because the devs have some pretty interesting ideas and obviously care about constructing a consistent game world, but just abandon things so quickly.

    Also a good point. I feel like the devs actually do a commendable job on handling tons of maps and currencies from older content in ways that prevents them from being totally irrelevant, but when it comes to entire systems like Stronghold and dungeons, I just can't imagine that that this is a good experience to new players who are curious about these game types that are likely pretty inaccessible due to lack of interest from the playerbase which is a direct result from lack of support from the game itself.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2020

    Raids are a waste of development time. All focus should be on 5 mans(no more fractals), WvW, PvP, new elite specs, better balance, and probably a completely new tier of materials for something because everything on the TP is losing all value except mystic coins(which are gated, but that's good as this item always retains value).

    Also, strike missions were a massive failure and should be abandoned. Just add LFR raids from WoW/24 man raids from FF14 as the big 10 man content and make it queueable with randoms like PvP where you can only queue with 2 people at most and can't full premade it. Any other 10 man content is dead on arrival and will be gate keeped by this games raiding community and thus fail.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Because, like i always kept bringing up whenever someone mentioned metrics, those can only tell you what is happening, but they usually don't tell you why is it happening.

    No argument from me here. I completely agree, it's some other people that don't seem to understand it.

    Notice, by the way, that he didn't say that knowing our thoughts or not has any impact on what they're doing.

    "help us weigh decisions." If knowing our thoughts helps them "weigh decisions" then it should have an impact on what they will do in the future. It was clear that Living World and Expansion is all they care about, but that can change. Remember that "Raids, like Living World, fractals, etc. are constantly being evaluated."
    The only weird thing here is that he asked for thoughts on a reddit comment, instead of making a forum thread instead. Not that there aren't many threads discussing Raids anyway, with tons of "thoughts" on the subject

    After all, almost everything is on the table somewhere.

    True, that table is rather huge.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    This still tells them only a reason why people that do play raids play them. It doesn't tell them why the number of those people is too small to warrant supporting them, because they were not asking about why someone might not be doing them.

    We'll yes and no. If the numbers they saw at the beginning warranted further production then it might tell them why the decrease happened.

    It might just be more effecient to get raiders back into raids then it is to get non raiders into it.

    Ofcourse this is just speculation though.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2020

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Raids are a waste of development time. All focus should be on 5 mans(no more fractals), WvW, PvP, new elite specs, better balance, and probably a completely new tier of materials for something because everything on the TP is losing all value except mystic coins(which are gated, but that's good as this item always retains value).

    Also, strike missions were a massive failure and should be abandoned. Just add LFR raids from WoW/24 man raids from FF14 as the big 10 man content and make it queueable with randoms like PvP where you can only queue with 2 people at most and can't full premade it. Any other 10 man content is dead on arrival and will be gate keeped by this games raiding community and thus fail.

    The appeal of Raids for many is being able to build up a community and have a weekly event together as friends as well as the difficulty, overcoming challenges together and having engaging gameplay.

    This queue only content you describe caters to neither. It wouldn't allow you to play together with friends and due to throwing people of wildly differing skill levels randomly together it could not be difficult either.
    Last thing GW2 needs is more "play alone together" non community driven low effort content with no longevity.

    How unpopular the random queue in Strike option is (see, dead) compared to LFG'ing for it should give a hint.

    Raids and Fractals etc. were doing just fine (up to 30% community engagement for W1 for example) before Anet squandered resources on other projects, choosing to pull the plug on anything but the lowest common denominator content in LW, hoping to keep people engaged with the gemstore while using those funds for other (failed) game projects, instead of reinvesting it into GW2 and all of it's content avenues.

    If content feels like it doesn't have a future and maybe gets an update once a year or less, ofc it's community is going to die. That doesn't reflect badly on the content through, nor player interest in it.

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    This still tells them only a reason why people that do play raids play them. It doesn't tell them why the number of those people is too small to warrant supporting them, because they were not asking about why someone might not be doing them.

    We'll yes and no. If the numbers they saw at the beginning warranted further production then it might tell them why the decrease happened.

    It might just be more effecient to get raiders back into raids then it is to get non raiders into it.

    Ofcourse this is just speculation though.

    It seems early Raids were completed by more people than LW at this point is. The drastic decrease in player population came with Wing 4, which was when content production first slow down to taking double the time, while at the same time being disappointingly easy to many, not warranting such wait times.

    One Raid Wing a year just wasn't enough to sustain a community and especially not to get many new people in by making them feel like it's content with a future which they can sink their teeth into and get invested. That's not a problem with the content in of itself.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:
    It seems early Raids were completed by more people than LW at this point is. The drastic decrease in player population came with Wing 4, which was when content production first slow down to taking double the time, while at the same time being disappointingly easy to many, not warranting such wait times.

    I think the major disappointment of Wing 4 was the lack of good rewards, the fact that it was the Underworld from GW1 but was really small (it should've been 3 Raid wings), 2 bosses and some in-between events. Other than that I believe W4 was more difficult than it should be for the first Raid in a new line, something that was made worse when players realized they had to beat the hardest content first before moving to the next parts of the legendary collection which is in every way or form completely backwards. Finally the promise of "faster releases" that led to the slowest release cadence for Raids was the final nail in the coffin of this content.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    It seems early Raids were completed by more people than LW at this point is. The drastic decrease in player population came with Wing 4, which was when content production first slow down to taking double the time, while at the same time being disappointingly easy to many, not warranting such wait times.

    I think the major disappointment of Wing 4 was the lack of good rewards, the fact that it was the Underworld from GW1 but was really small (it should've been 3 Raid wings), 2 bosses and some in-between events. Other than that I believe W4 was more difficult than it should be for the first Raid in a new line, something that was made worse when players realized they had to beat the hardest content first before moving to the next parts of the legendary collection which is in every way or form completely backwards. Finally the promise of "faster releases" that led to the slowest release cadence for Raids was the final nail in the coffin of this content.

    I believe you are referring to W5, which yes, took even longer along with a myriad of other issues, leading to drastic further decline.
    At that point, having to wait for so long, many (as it turns out rightfully) just didn't think the content had a future and left and the resulting low population from lack of content is now used to justify the lack of content/cancellation.

    How many people would still be excited/coming back for LW patches if they only happened every 9+ months over the last 3 years, or any other content for that matter?
    Of course most of the people who mainly play for that content, any content, are going to leave eventually with that cadence.

    If anything, the fact that Fractal CM's and Raids are still played to the degree that they are in the sea of abandoned and dead content that is GW2 by now is a testament to their quality and longevity. Maintaining a community/dedicated daily players after 3+ years of no new content in the case of Fractal CM's is downright impressive.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    It seems early Raids were completed by more people than LW at this point is. The drastic decrease in player population came with Wing 4, which was when content production first slow down to taking double the time, while at the same time being disappointingly easy to many, not warranting such wait times.

    I think the major disappointment of Wing 4 was the lack of good rewards, the fact that it was the Underworld from GW1 but was really small (it should've been 3 Raid wings), 2 bosses and some in-between events. Other than that I believe W4 was more difficult than it should be for the first Raid in a new line, something that was made worse when players realized they had to beat the hardest content first before moving to the next parts of the legendary collection which is in every way or form completely backwards. Finally the promise of "faster releases" that led to the slowest release cadence for Raids was the final nail in the coffin of this content.

    Don't you mean w5?

    W4 was bastiont

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:
    Don't you mean w5?

    W4 was bastiont

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I believe you are referring to W5, which yes, took even longer along with a myriad of other issues, leading to drastic further decline.

    woops. Yes I was talking about W5 not W4. I don't think W4 release was bad and although it took them long enough to release W5, there was a full expansion between them so I don't see that as such a big issue

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Don't you mean w5?

    W4 was bastiont

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I believe you are referring to W5, which yes, took even longer along with a myriad of other issues, leading to drastic further decline.

    woops. Yes I was talking about W5 not W4. I don't think W4 release was bad and although it took them long enough to release W5, there was a full expansion between them so I don't see that as such a big issue

    I'm not saying Wing 4 was bad either, just that people expected more than the easiest Wing to date (at least bosses 1-3) cleared in a night after 8 months of wait, when previous Wings were 3-4 Months apart and more engaging.

    It gave people both the impression that Raids would now take twice the time to come out as well as being dumped down in difficulty to increase accessability, which only caused many of the people already interested in Raids in the first place to leave, not sticking around another 9 months to wait for W5.
    Wing 4 was essentially the asked for easy mode for Raids, after double the waiting time, with the decent fights being the one time rewarded CM's.

    Then they kind of overcompensated for W4's lack of difficulty with W5, and it all just became a mess of mixed signals.
    Releasing some really easy Raids like W4 and some really challenging ones like W5 would have been fine with a ~3 month cadence. They wouldn't have to need to cater to everyone, be it super hardcore or more casual raiders, with every release.
    Being let down after 9 months of waiting, with another chance for maybe more suitable content in another 9 months is bound to fail to retain a healthy and diverse playerbase though.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Don't you mean w5?

    W4 was bastiont

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I believe you are referring to W5, which yes, took even longer along with a myriad of other issues, leading to drastic further decline.

    woops. Yes I was talking about W5 not W4. I don't think W4 release was bad and although it took them long enough to release W5, there was a full expansion between them so I don't see that as such a big issue

    I'm not saying Wing 4 was bad either, just that people expected more than the easiest Wing to date (at least bosses 1-3) cleared in a night after 8 months of wait, when previous Wings were 3-4 Months apart and more engaging.

    Then the problem was that they released the previous wings 3-4 months apart. Remember, that w4 was the first wing that ran its full development cycle in the clear. W1, W2 and W3 had parts of them done during HoT development. When W1 released, W2 and w3 were already partway done. That is the only reason the time between their releases was that short.
    And the difficulty case is not so clearcut as you make it to be. Truth is, the raiders were never in full agreement about what their wanted out of raids. For some, w5 was he desired difficulty, but many others preferred w1-3, and there were some that liked w4 the most.

    It gave people both the impression that Raids would now take twice the time to come out as well as being dumped down in difficulty to increase accessability, which only caused many of the people already interested in Raids in the first place to leave, not sticking around another 9 months to wait for W5.
    Wing 4 was essentially the asked for easy mode for Raids, after double the waiting time, with the decent fights being the one time rewarded CM's.

    The visible drop in W5 popularity was not because people left. It happened, because many raiders that were still there simply refused to move on to w5, due to vastly increased difficulty. There were a lot of groups that were sticking to w1-w4 only. Some never moved on, some did the wing once but didn't try to include it in their weekly clears... the vote the raid community did silently, with their feet, was completely different than the loud opinions some of raiders were pushing on forums and reddit.

    In the end, W4 was significantly more popular than w5. And w5 singlehandedly killed the popularity of all the wings that came after it.

    Then they kind of overcompensated for W4's lack of difficulty with W5, and it all just became a mess of mixed signals.

    Yep, that was definitely bad. It was that difficulty jump that scared a lot of people away. But that only underscores the fact that it was w5, not w4, that was a problem.

    Releasing some really easy Raids like W4 and some really challenging ones like W5 would have been fine with a ~3 month cadence. They wouldn't have to need to cater to everyone, be it super hardcore or more casual raiders, with every release.

    They never had resources for 3 month cadence. That would have required 3 or 4 raid teams working in parallel. They had only one team.

    That's the issue - for the whole time of existence of raids, raiders expected Anet to dedicate to them way more resources than the content population warranted. The only way Anet could have fulfilled those overblown expectations was if they were to switch to a game model centered around raids. But that would have cost them most of their casual playerbase, and that was way too much of a cost to satisfy what was only a minor part of the game community.

    In the end, they probably would have been better off if they never started raids in the first place. They could have then introduced a bit of other types of more challenging content, but without the expectations that the name of "raids" carried with them.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    They never had resources for 3 month cadence. That would have required 3 or 4 raid teams working in parallel. They had only one team.

    I, too, always suspected that this was the case. I think for how rich GW2 is as a player experience, there's a really small number of people at ANet wearing a large number of hats to make that happen. Interesting instanced content always takes quite a bit of design work as far as I can tell, and that would only be intensified when going for top-tier challenges like raids.

    That's the issue - for the whole time of existence of raids, raiders expected Anet to dedicate to them way more resources than the content population warranted. The only way Anet could have fulfilled those overblown expectations was if they were to switch to a game model centered around raids. But that would have cost them most of their casual playerbase, and that was way too much of a cost to satisfy what was only a minor part of the game community.

    In the end, they probably would have been better off if they never started raids in the first place. They could have then introduced a bit of other types of more challenging content, but without the expectations that the name of "raids" carried with them.

    I also agree with this. Calling them 'raids' basically sentences that content to carrying similar expectations borne by 'raids' we've seen everywhere else. IMO, the only possible escape ANet could have used, after introducing them as 'raids', would be to demonstrate a radically unique design that somehow allowed raids to be cleared without some semblance of the trinity. I personally think that's almost impossible without making every single fight into the equivalent of an open-world boss: dodge mechanics for yourself, heal yourself when needed, try to poop out some boons for those closest to you when you can, but mostly just personal survival and personal dps rotation. Not really the team-play encounters raiders are looking for.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    They never had resources for 3 month cadence. That would have required 3 or 4 raid teams working in parallel. They had only one team.

    They had at least 2 Raid teams during the initial development (or was it 3?). They could've released Raids faster, not every 3 months but a lot faster than the release cadence they ended up with, but the Raid team started releasing Fractals too. Not only did they cut the team size, but they gave the same team extra responsibility. I guess Fractals wasn't good enough to justify having their own team and they had to put them together.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    They never had resources for 3 month cadence. That would have required 3 or 4 raid teams working in parallel. They had only one team.

    I, too, always suspected that this was the case. I think for how rich GW2 is as a player experience, there's a really small number of people at ANet wearing a large number of hats to make that happen. Interesting instanced content always takes quite a bit of design work as far as I can tell, and that would only be intensified when going for top-tier challenges like raids.

    That's the issue - for the whole time of existence of raids, raiders expected Anet to dedicate to them way more resources than the content population warranted. The only way Anet could have fulfilled those overblown expectations was if they were to switch to a game model centered around raids. But that would have cost them most of their casual playerbase, and that was way too much of a cost to satisfy what was only a minor part of the game community.

    In the end, they probably would have been better off if they never started raids in the first place. They could have then introduced a bit of other types of more challenging content, but without the expectations that the name of "raids" carried with them.

    I also agree with this. Calling them 'raids' basically sentences that content to carrying similar expectations borne by 'raids' we've seen everywhere else. IMO, the only possible escape ANet could have used, after introducing them as 'raids', would be to demonstrate a radically unique design that somehow allowed raids to be cleared without some semblance of the trinity. I personally think that's almost impossible without making every single fight into the equivalent of an open-world boss: dodge mechanics for yourself, heal yourself when needed, try to poop out some boons for those closest to you when you can, but mostly just personal survival and personal dps rotation. Not really the team-play encounters raiders are looking for.

    Actually you don't need the trinity to complete most raid encounters. The structure that's now used is mostly player generated.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    They never had resources for 3 month cadence. That would have required 3 or 4 raid teams working in parallel. They had only one team.

    They had at least 2 Raid teams during the initial development (or was it 3?).

    Did they? Was it revealed somehow relatively recently? Because up until PoF i heard people keep saying (based on several different dev quotes) that the initial dev team for raids had only five people. Until they got merged with fractal team anyway.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    They never had resources for 3 month cadence. That would have required 3 or 4 raid teams working in parallel. They had only one team.

    They had at least 2 Raid teams during the initial development (or was it 3?).

    Did they? Was it revealed somehow relatively recently? Because up until PoF i heard people keep saying (based on several different dev quotes) that the initial dev team for raids had only five people. Until they got merged with fractal team anyway.

    They had 5-6 people working on Salvation Pass and it took them about 4 months to release it

    For Salvation Pass they only had 5-6 people working on it full time for 4 months, and they mostly worked on 2 raid releases

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/48zlyd/im_mike_obrien_here_with_gw2_dev_team_ama/d0nwad9/?context=10000

    You can find the full Raids Team that worked on Forsaken Thicket (the first Raid) here:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Raids_Team
    makes sense to have multiple teams working on different wings at the same time, unless either the wiki or Crystal Reid were mistaken. Doesn't add up otherwise.
    Raid team introducing themselves:
    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-team-introductions
    There are 12 developers posting on that thread, clear confirmation there were 12 developers working on Raids, 5-6 worked on Salvation Pass. Do I need to go on?

    But in the end it was always clear that 4 months are required for a Raid release (not 9) and something horrible happened along the way to more than double the release cadence.

    edit: and checking the links of the developers that worked on Raids you can see what happened.
    Crystal Reid worked on Rising Flames and Flashpoint
    Jason Reynolds moved to the Living World team in 2018
    Tirzah Bauer worked on the maps of Path of Fire
    Other developers of the team also provided a LOT of features to the game

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Then the problem was that they released the previous wings 3-4 months apart. Remember, that w4 was the first wing that ran its full development cycle in the clear. W1, W2 and W3 had parts of them done during HoT development. When W1 released, W2 and w3 were already partway done. That is the only reason the time between their releases was that short.
    And the difficulty case is not so clearcut as you make it to be. Truth is, the raiders were never in full agreement about what their wanted out of raids. For some, w5 was he desired difficulty, but many others preferred w1-3, and there were some that liked w4 the most.

    The problem with a 9 month cadence being to slow to maintain a community was previous Wings being released at a more reasonable pace? I'm sorry but that makes less than no sense.

    Of course not all players, raiders included, enjoy the same difficulty levels. That's why it's important to release content at a steady semi frequent pace.
    W5 too difficult for you? That's okay if in 3-6 months another Raid comes out. Waiting 9 months for something new every time to maybe get more suitable content isnt.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    The visible drop in W5 popularity was not because people left. It happened, because many raiders that were still there simply refused to move on to w5, due to vastly increased difficulty. There were a lot of groups that were sticking to w1-w4 only. Some never moved on, some did the wing once but didn't try to include it in their weekly clears... the vote the raid community did silently, with their feet, was completely different than the loud opinions some of raiders were pushing on forums and reddit.

    In the end, W4 was significantly more popular than w5. And w5 singlehandedly killed the popularity of all the wings that came after it.

    Yes, some people left in the 8 months leading up to Wing 4, some with Wing 4, some left in the 9 months waiting time to W5, some left when Wing 5 was too hard for them, and some left due to the prospect of having to wait yet another 9 months for the next content drop.
    It wasn't just one thing.

    Once again, releasing Wings catering to more casual audiences (Wing 4) or more hardcore audiences (Wing 5) is both fine, if is happens at a frequent enough pace that both audiences within that community still feel catered too. But that wasn't the case.

    For the players who felt Wing 5 was too hard that meant 18 months of no new content. That's the issue. Not Wing 5's difficulty all on it's own.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Yep, that was definitely bad. It was that difficulty jump that scared a lot of people away. But that only underscores the fact that it was w5, not w4, that was a problem.

    Again, I didn't say Wing 4 was a problem. Wing 4 with a lead up time of 8 months since the last content, with another 9 months to the next piece of content was a problem though.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    They never had resources for 3 month cadence. That would have required 3 or 4 raid teams working in parallel. They had only one team.

    That's the issue - for the whole time of existence of raids, raiders expected Anet to dedicate to them way more resources than the content population warranted. The only way Anet could have fulfilled those overblown expectations was if they were to switch to a game model centered around raids. But that would have cost them most of their casual playerbase, and that was way too much of a cost to satisfy what was only a minor part of the game community.

    In the end, they probably would have been better off if they never started raids in the first place. They could have then introduced a bit of other types of more challenging content, but without the expectations that the name of "raids" carried with them.

    I can't speak about what resources Anet did and did not have available, although we do know that they were working at 3? games at some point (of which all got cancelled), which seems like it would have been enough to properly support continuous growth across GW2's gamemodes instead, leading to more income than the 0 the other projects yielded, but hindsight is 20/20.

    I also don't think a 3 month cadence would have been necessary, but 9 months is way too long. A Raid every half a year though doesn't seem like too much to ask for.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I also don't think a 3 month cadence would have been necessary, but 9 months is way too long. A Raid every half a year though doesn't seem like too much to ask for.

    4-5 months was perfectly doable when the Raid team was developing only Raids, as the developers clearly said so. When they moved them to create all those other features we see and use of course the release cadence suffered. Raid developers created a LOT for this game, so they weren't exactly "Raid developers" alone, Anet didn't spare 5-6 people out of a 200 person team to work on releasing 1 Raid every 4-5 months. Maybe because they were the most talented of their developers and were needed to make all those things we take for granted, like squad markers and checkpoints in instances.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Then the problem was that they released the previous wings 3-4 months apart. Remember, that w4 was the first wing that ran its full development cycle in the clear. W1, W2 and W3 had parts of them done during HoT development. When W1 released, W2 and w3 were already partway done. That is the only reason the time between their releases was that short.
    And the difficulty case is not so clearcut as you make it to be. Truth is, the raiders were never in full agreement about what their wanted out of raids. For some, w5 was he desired difficulty, but many others preferred w1-3, and there were some that liked w4 the most.

    The problem with a 9 month cadence being to slow to maintain a community was previous Wings being released at a more reasonable pace? I'm sorry but that makes less than no sense.

    Yes. The problem with the previous, unsustainable cadence was that it set the wrong expectations. Expectations Anet simply couldn't fulfill without dedicating way more resources to raids than they were prepared to do.
    There was simply no way raiders would get that faster initial cadence longterm. So, setting the expectations right from the beginning, instead of raising the hopes up and then not being able to follow up on it would have been better.

    Of course not all players, raiders included, enjoy the same difficulty levels. That's why it's important to release content at a steady semi frequent pace.
    W5 too difficult for you? That's okay if in 3-6 months another Raid comes out. Waiting 9 months for something new every time to maybe get more suitable content isnt.

    To justify dedicating enough resources to be able to do that, raids would have had to be way more popular than they ended up being even at their height.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    The visible drop in W5 popularity was not because people left. It happened, because many raiders that were still there simply refused to move on to w5, due to vastly increased difficulty. There were a lot of groups that were sticking to w1-w4 only. Some never moved on, some did the wing once but didn't try to include it in their weekly clears... the vote the raid community did silently, with their feet, was completely different than the loud opinions some of raiders were pushing on forums and reddit.

    In the end, W4 was significantly more popular than w5. And w5 singlehandedly killed the popularity of all the wings that came after it.

    Yes, some people left in the 8 months leading up to Wing 4, some with Wing 4, some left in the 9 months waiting time to W5, some left when Wing 5 was too hard for them, and some left due to the prospect of having to wait yet another 9 months for the next content drop.
    It wasn't just one thing.

    The drop in raiding community in the time leading up to wing 4 was really insignificant. The main reason why w5 had a much lower population levels was not because people left. The people were still there, they just didn't want to run w5.

    Once again, releasing Wings catering to more casual audiences (Wing 4) or more hardcore audiences (Wing 5) is both fine, if is happens at a frequent enough pace that both audiences within that community still feel catered too. But that wasn't the case.

    For the players who felt Wing 5 was too hard that meant 18 months of no new content. That's the issue. Not Wing 5's difficulty all on it's own.

    Sure, but you're seeing it from the wrong side. If the difficulty of w5 was so high that a lot of players would have had to wait 18 months for new content (notice by the way, that w6, for those that preferred the w4 level of difficulty, was also a bit too high up there), then the solution would be to not introduce a wing of such difficulty at all. And limit appealing to the top players among the raiders to CMs only.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Yep, that was definitely bad. It was that difficulty jump that scared a lot of people away. But that only underscores the fact that it was w5, not w4, that was a problem.

    Again, I didn't say Wing 4 was a problem. Wing 4 with a lead up time of 8 months since the last content, with another 9 months to the next piece of content was a problem though.

    Again, that was the result of how much resources Anet was willing to assign to raids. If Anet were to use more resources, they would have made sure to target raids to a much wider audience. Which would result in a much easier wings overall.

    So, basically, you could get this level of difficulty every 9-10 months, or much easier wings faster. I would prefer the latter, but i am sure that a lot of raider community would get angry if that was the choice Anet made.

    I know that there are raiders that fully expected to eat their cookie and stilll have it, but that was never truly an option.

    I can't speak about what resources Anet did and did not have available, although we do know that they were working at 3? games at some point (of which all got cancelled), which seems like it would have been enough to properly support continuous growth across GW2's gamemodes instead, leading to more income than the 0 the other projects yielded, but hindsight is 20/20.

    Obviously we don't know anything specific, but from what we can intuit, it seems it wasn't the raid team that got raided for resources. It was the expansion team. So, no, even if Anet did not sink a lot of resources into projects that didn't pay out, it wouldn't have been the raids that would have profitted from it. We'd just have seen a third expansion year ago, instead of having to wait for it for another year or two from now. Which, obviously, would have made the overall game situatuion much better than it is now, but would not have changed anything for raids specifically.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:
    It might just be more effecient to get raiders back into raids then it is to get non raiders into it.

    It depends on what exactly the goal is. Getting raiders back is indeed more efficient than trying to get new people into the current raids but if the goal is to get as many people as possible to play raids (or raid like content) then focusing on getting new players into it is a better way to achieve this goal than focusing on a miniscule part of the player base.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Yes. The problem with the previous, unsustainable cadence was that it set the wrong expectations. Expectations Anet simply couldn't fulfill without dedicating way more resources to raids than they were prepared to do.
    There was simply no way raiders would get that faster initial cadence longterm. So, setting the expectations right from the beginning, instead of raising the hopes up and then not being able to follow up on it would have been better.

    I personally started Raiding after W1-3 had already been released and due to having never Raided in a game before and thinking that content just wasn't for me had not at all payed attention to it or it's release cadence - so when I started to try out Raiding it was with zero expectations other than probably hating it due to being insanely difficult and full of "toxic elitists" and all those scary things I had heard from the fellow casual community to ward me away.
    I really just wanted to clear a single boss to unlock the masteries so I could earn Spirit Shards in HoT again and complete that part of the game just before PoF came out, as they were locked at that time.

    While I did almost instantly fell in love with the friendly and welcoming Training Guild I found, as well as the content and actually way more interesting gameplay, what over time became very apparent though was that the content wasn't well supported and that 9 months of waiting times was very harsh on that part of the community overall (as well as my patience), both in terms of people just quitting due to lack of content, as well as due to large parts of the remainders becoming more and more elitist in their mastery of the little content they had available, with clearing that little content more and more efficiently with higher and higher requirements to do so being their only solace/way to keep the content fresh and engaging, rather than receiving a constant influx of new content serving as new jump in points for people to keep the community diverse and healthy - which made at least pugging a worse and worse experience, further serving to detract new players not knowing to search for guilds and trainings.

    So no, the later release cadence was an issue even irregardless of any possible expectations and earlier set schedules.

    If Raids had been 9 months apart from the get go, their playerbase would have simply dwindled and becoming more set in their restrictive ways way faster.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    To justify dedicating enough resources to be able to do that, raids would have had to be way more popular than they ended up being even at their height.

    Expecting more than 20-30% of the playerbase to clear hardcore endgame content such as Raids is beyond unreasonable though, that's a pretty incredible number.
    If Raids had debuted with <5% interest maybe I would buy that argument, but not being able to dedicate more than ~5-10 people out of a 250+ people company at the time to hardcore content that caught the interest of such a large part of the player base is silly.

    Keep in mind, later LW episodes, being on a rapid decline as the game doesn't offer anything else since a year, have similar completion rates and are supported by what, 3-5 whole teams? Require much more effort and resources in writing, voice acting, map design etc., while staying relevant content much shorter.

    Now one could argue that LW/that part of the community generates the vast majority of the revenue and that endgame content was insignificant, but looking at the revenue trend since hardcore was abandoned in favour of of LW, dropping by >25% in 2019 as more and more people got tired of waiting for other content, that doesn't seem to be true either.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Obviously we don't know anything specific, but from what we can intuit, it seems it wasn't the raid team that got raided for resources. It was the expansion team. So, no, even if Anet did not sink a lot of resources into projects that didn't pay out, it wouldn't have been the raids that would have profitted from it. We'd just have seen a third expansion year ago, instead of having to wait for it for another year or two from now. Which, obviously, would have made the overall game situatuion much better than it is now, but would not have changed anything for raids specifically.

    Besides the raid team being eventually reallocated to replace other positions/being laid off, other teams like competitive and raids could have been bolstered instead while not working on an expansion.
    Also Fractals and Raids probably should have been part of any further expansion efforts like PoF and beyond.

    Did OW expansion content like Serpent's Ire really contribute more to the expansion and longterm revenue than launching the expansion with endgame content like a Fractal and/or a Raid Wing (or at least some work done on a Raid Wing for a speedier release) included instead?

    It can't possible take such a tremendous amount of effort to create such small and linear maps and 2-3 boss models as well as coming up with some mechanics for a Fractal/Raid, contributing hundreds of hours of repeatable content for years to some players, as opposed to the massive workload of something like a LW episode.
    The argument/excuse that Anet couldn't even spare the resources of ~5-10 people to cater to that entire audience just doesn't add up to me.
    It seems to me that Anet miscalculated/misread the statistics of most people playing LW and some of them just also enjoying Raids/Fractals etc., but those not being too important to retain them as players, while looking at 2019's revenue reports, as well as dwindling LW completion rates as people are leaving, seem to indicate that for a at least sizeable part of the community it was the other way around.
    Many just also happened to play LW while waiting for more substantial releases (Expansion, Fractal, Raid, Competitive/balance), while not caring much for the former, and that Anet shouldn't have put all their eggs into the one basket - even if it was possibly the best one to put at least some in.

    I personally can't imagine the game being in a worse state, both population wise and finacially, if LW would have been ~4 Months apart instead of 3, with 2 Fractals in 2019 instead of 1, and another Fractal and Raid early to mid 2020 instead of none, by sparing a handful of people across those teams.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    It might just be more effecient to get raiders back into raids then it is to get non raiders into it.

    It depends on what exactly the goal is. Getting raiders back is indeed more efficient than trying to get new people into the current raids but if the goal is to get as many people as possible to play raids (or raid like content) then focusing on getting new players into it is a better way to achieve this goal than focusing on a miniscule part of the player base.

    If HOT Raids proved us anything is that the population that likes Raids is not tiny by any means. So asking Raiders, those that enjoy the content and made the old ones a success, what they want to bring back that success, is a very good idea.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    It might just be more effecient to get raiders back into raids then it is to get non raiders into it.

    It depends on what exactly the goal is. Getting raiders back is indeed more efficient than trying to get new people into the current raids but if the goal is to get as many people as possible to play raids (or raid like content) then focusing on getting new players into it is a better way to achieve this goal than focusing on a miniscule part of the player base.

    We'll the goal shouldn't nessecarily be to get people into the content. But to get the content to people who would enjoy it.

    As gets pointed out we know that the original amount of people who raided where higher then expected so their was enough interest in the content type.

    Honestly their is value in catering to specific niches.

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2020

    I still hope that we will have future raids. There is still much to squeez out of it. With the new Xpac there should be new opportunities to tell raid stories and maybe even beyond that. I still hope that we can one day get back to the fissure of woe, even if it is more like a tunnel as underworld gw2 compared to underworld gw1 was.
    There was also Urgoz and Kanaxai - which both are dead now obviously, however I still think there should be new enemies or events that could lead us into raids.

    As someone who never was into raiding due to its difficulty in other games, I loved how I was easily able to get into it in GW2. So for me it would mean a lot to return to it. (I have unlocked 100% everything from the current raids instances, skins, minis, legendary armour and all achievemnts.)

    Btw, since I never mentioned it: The maps of W5, 6 and 7 were absolutely goergous, let the mappers know that pls.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    It might just be more effecient to get raiders back into raids then it is to get non raiders into it.

    It depends on what exactly the goal is. Getting raiders back is indeed more efficient than trying to get new people into the current raids but if the goal is to get as many people as possible to play raids (or raid like content) then focusing on getting new players into it is a better way to achieve this goal than focusing on a miniscule part of the player base.

    The most efficient path (value for the dev buck) is to reuse the existing raid content, copy then adapt it so it will appeal to the other 90% of the player base.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    It might just be more effecient to get raiders back into raids then it is to get non raiders into it.

    It depends on what exactly the goal is. Getting raiders back is indeed more efficient than trying to get new people into the current raids but if the goal is to get as many people as possible to play raids (or raid like content) then focusing on getting new players into it is a better way to achieve this goal than focusing on a miniscule part of the player base.

    The most efficient path (value for the dev buck) is to reuse the existing raid content, copy then adapt it so it will appeal to the other 90% of the player base.

    Judging by Strike Missions performance, your assumption that they can make existing Raid content appeal to 90% of the player base is wrong.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    It might just be more effecient to get raiders back into raids then it is to get non raiders into it.

    It depends on what exactly the goal is. Getting raiders back is indeed more efficient than trying to get new people into the current raids but if the goal is to get as many people as possible to play raids (or raid like content) then focusing on getting new players into it is a better way to achieve this goal than focusing on a miniscule part of the player base.

    The most efficient path (value for the dev buck) is to reuse the existing raid content, copy then adapt it so it will appeal to the other 90% of the player base.

    We'll only if they plan to do this for pvp, dungeons,... Etc. Otherwise you set a precedent. On top of that how would you even do that, theirs a percentage who don't like instanced group content. And if you make it solo content you're better of just making completely new things

    Or do you mean like the sloth in ember bay for example?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    It might just be more effecient to get raiders back into raids then it is to get non raiders into it.

    It depends on what exactly the goal is. Getting raiders back is indeed more efficient than trying to get new people into the current raids but if the goal is to get as many people as possible to play raids (or raid like content) then focusing on getting new players into it is a better way to achieve this goal than focusing on a miniscule part of the player base.

    If HOT Raids proved us anything is that the population that likes Raids is not tiny by any means. So asking Raiders, those that enjoy the content and made the old ones a success, what they want to bring back that success, is a very good idea.

    It may not have been tiny, but still was small enough that Anet didn't think it rated more than one dev team and better than 9 months-long release schedule. Which apparently was nowhere close to what this content needed to not get abandoned. And, of course, remember that a lot of players were in there only for the legendary armor and dropped out of content as soon as they've obtained it. Because they didn't actually like raids.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    It might just be more effecient to get raiders back into raids then it is to get non raiders into it.

    It depends on what exactly the goal is. Getting raiders back is indeed more efficient than trying to get new people into the current raids but if the goal is to get as many people as possible to play raids (or raid like content) then focusing on getting new players into it is a better way to achieve this goal than focusing on a miniscule part of the player base.

    If HOT Raids proved us anything is that the population that likes Raids is not tiny by any means. So asking Raiders, those that enjoy the content and made the old ones a success, what they want to bring back that success, is a very good idea.

    It may not have been tiny, but still was small enough that Anet didn't think it rated more than one dev team and better than 9 months-long release schedule. Which apparently was nowhere close to what this content needed to not get abandoned. And, of course, remember that a lot of players were in there only for the legendary armor and dropped out of content as soon as they've obtained it. Because they didn't actually like raids.

    Or they simply required more manpower to release Season 3 at the fast pace they did, and it's why they "raided" Raid team developers to work on it and the expansion instead of letting them release more Raids. Maybe it wasn't because the content wasn't doing well, but because they needed more developers for the rest of the game. After all they only needed 5 full time developers to release a Raid wing every 4 months, but they didn't even allocate that. Remember a lot of the things we take for granted now from checkpoints in instances or squad markers/commands, to LW episodes, like Rising Flames and Flashpoint, to maps in Path of Fire, were developed using talent from the so called "Raid team", because in reality that "team" existed only for the first Raid (3 wings), then they were dragged to work on the LW and the expansion.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Or they simply required more manpower to release Season 3 at the fast pace they did, and it's why they "raided" Raid team developers to work on it and the expansion instead of letting them release more Raids. Maybe it wasn't because the content wasn't doing well, but because they needed more developers for the rest of the game. After all they only needed 5 full time developers to release a Raid wing every 4 months, but they didn't even allocate that. Remember a lot of the things we take for granted now from checkpoints in instances or squad markers/commands, to LW episodes, like Rising Flames and Flashpoint, to maps in Path of Fire, were developed using talent from the so called "Raid team", because in reality that "team" existed only for the first Raid (3 wings), then they were dragged to work on the LW and the expansion.

    Well, they did not have any LS team at all initially. They started repurposing LS2 team as soon as the work on HoT started, and used it completely for expansion work as soon as the last LS2 episode was finished. Any work on LS content started again only after HoT already launched, and by that time most of the work on W1, and a lot of work on W2 and W3 was already done.

    In a way, it's not like the "raid team" was dragged to work on LW and expansion. While it is indeed true, it is also true that a lot of those devs were first dragged off from other content to do raids. You might as well say, that a lot of stuff for w1-3 was done using hands of core devs that were only temporarily assigned to raids for that short while, and then had to go back to do other stuff they were needed for.

    So, yes, i agree with you that if they decided to give up on either LS or future expansion content, they could have kept up a schedule raiders would have considered reasonable. I'm not quite sure if the rest of the playerbase would have considered such resouce distribution to be reasonable at all.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Or they simply required more manpower to release Season 3 at the fast pace they did, and it's why they "raided" Raid team developers to work on it and the expansion instead of letting them release more Raids. Maybe it wasn't because the content wasn't doing well, but because they needed more developers for the rest of the game. After all they only needed 5 full time developers to release a Raid wing every 4 months, but they didn't even allocate that. Remember a lot of the things we take for granted now from checkpoints in instances or squad markers/commands, to LW episodes, like Rising Flames and Flashpoint, to maps in Path of Fire, were developed using talent from the so called "Raid team", because in reality that "team" existed only for the first Raid (3 wings), then they were dragged to work on the LW and the expansion.

    Well, they did not have any LS team at all initially. They started repurposing LS2 team as soon as the work on HoT started, and used it completely for expansion work as soon as the last LS2 episode was finished. Any work on LS content started again only after HoT already launched, and by that time most of the work on W1, and a lot of work on W2 and W3 was already done.

    So, yes, i agree with you that if they decided to give up on either LS or future expansion content, they could have kept up a schedule raiders would consider reasonable. I'm not quite sure if the rest of the playerbase would have considered such resouce distribution to be reasonable at all.

    You are saying that allocating 5 developers out of 220 to work on Raids and release them every 4 months would mean "Giving up" on LS or future expansion? I don't find your argument reasonable or even possible. The schedule Raiders would consider reasonable was rather easy to achieve, with a very small number of developers, they just chose not to continue with that schedule because the rest of the game was lagging behind a lot and they needed the extra help. Which leads to the question why so many very important parts of the game were developed by the 12 members of the "raid team", what were the rest 180 developers doing at that time. But I guess we'll never know

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    It might just be more effecient to get raiders back into raids then it is to get non raiders into it.

    It depends on what exactly the goal is. Getting raiders back is indeed more efficient than trying to get new people into the current raids but if the goal is to get as many people as possible to play raids (or raid like content) then focusing on getting new players into it is a better way to achieve this goal than focusing on a miniscule part of the player base.

    The most efficient path (value for the dev buck) is to reuse the existing raid content, copy then adapt it so it will appeal to the other 90% of the player base.

    Judging by Strike Missions performance, your assumption that they can make existing Raid content appeal to 90% of the player base is wrong.

    90% seems not possible, its way too high. But otherwise I agree. It seems Anet is not skilled (or willing) enough to make content that gets much more non-raiders into raiding. Strike Missions do not work well as a substitute for a tutorial or easy-mode raids.

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  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2020

    I don't know where you get that certainty, seeing as we already know 5 devs were not enough for a 4-month schedule. We know that for w1, five devs worked full time for 5 months. We also know that they were not the only people that worked on w1 (it's just others were not working on it fulltime) and that 5 months was not the full time required for that wing (because there was also stuff those 5 devs were not doing, like QC, sound, dialogues, etc - we know from things they mentioned about w7 that this stuff could take as much as an additional month or two on top of all the previous work). So, they could keep the release schedule at around 6-7 months maybe. If they could still get supported with work of devs from the other teams. Teams that in that time ended up doing other stuff, and were too busy to keep lending them a hand.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.