Bobby Stein (dev) comment on Raid - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Bobby Stein (dev) comment on Raid

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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I don't know where you get that certainty, seeing as we already know 5 devs were not enough for a 4-month schedule.

    Actually we do know that 5-6 developers working full time released a Raid wing in 4 months.

    For Salvation Pass they only had 5-6 people working on it full time for 4 months, and they mostly worked on 2 raid releases

    You can check my post earlier in the thread with links on the subject, now where you get the "we already know" is anyone's guess because developers say the opposite.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1288635/#Comment_1288635

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2020

    For example, with Salvation Pass, we had only about 5-6 people working on it full time for 4 months. A few others assisted with their time for a week here, or a month there, plus additional people helped when it came time for reviews. And many of those full time people work on 2 raid releases simultaneously (Bobby worked on the scripts at the same time for both releases).

    He did not say here that doing the raid took 4 months. He said that 5-6 devs worked on it full time for 4 months. He also said that it was being done by more people than those 5-6.

    Notice that all this doesn't mean that 5-6 people are enough to make a wing, or that those 4 months was the whole of the time needed for it. In fact, from some things they mentioned elsewhere, we do know that after the raid team is done, there are still things that need to be dealt with before wing is ready for the delivery (the "reviews" - probably meaning final phases of QA, being one thing. Voicing the whole thing being another).

    I mean, we know that the work on w1 started while HoT was still being worked on. It's obvious, seeing as it was released only 1 month after HoT launch. In this quote it is also mentioned that at least some of the work was being done on more than one wing at a time. So, at least some of the work on w2 should have been done before we saw Spirit Vale - or even before HoT launch. And yet Salvation Pass released full 4 months after w1. It should be rather obvious, then, that the actual, full work took longer than those 4 months mentioned in the dev quote.

    But i have seen that quote misrepresented in so many different ways till now that i'm not even surprised by it happening again anymore.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2020

    The one thing you need to come to terms with while playing this game is that they seem to entirely lack (or at least refuse to display) any long term strategies. Content and even entire modes are picked up and abandoned or put on a long hiatus time and time again. It has always been rather impossible to know where your beloved game will be two or three years from now.
    People start pointing fingers all over the place to blame their fellow players as soon as those players happen to enjoy content they do not enjoy themselves. I am pretty sure all of us veteran players have felt like ArenaNet pretty much abandoned us and our part of the community at some point in the past.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    For example, with Salvation Pass, we had only about 5-6 people working on it full time for 4 months. A few others assisted with their time for a week here, or a month there, plus additional people helped when it came time for reviews. And many of those full time people work on 2 raid releases simultaneously (Bobby worked on the scripts at the same time for both releases).

    He did not say here that doing the raid took 4 months. He said that 5-6 devs worked on it full time for 4 months. He also said that it was being done by more people than those 5-6.

    Notice that all this doesn't mean that 5-6 people are enough to make a wing, or that those 4 months was the whole of the time needed for it. In fact, from some things they mentioned elsewhere, we do know that after the raid team is done, there are still things that need to be dealt with before wing is ready for the delivery (the "reviews" - probably meaning final phases of QA, being one thing. Voicing the whole thing being another).

    I mean, we know that the work on w1 started while HoT was still being worked on. It's obvious, seeing as it was released only 1 month after HoT launch. In this quote it is also mentioned that at least some of the work was being done on more than one wing at a time. So, at least some of the work on w2 should have been done before we saw Spirit Vale - or even before HoT launch. And yet Salvation Pass released full 4 months after w1. It should be rather obvious, then, that the actual, full work took longer than those 4 months mentioned in the dev quote.

    But i have seen that quote misrepresented in so many different ways till now that i'm not even surprised by it happening again anymore.

    I'm not misinterpreting the quote. The time needed to create a Raid by the Raid team is given. Obviously the Raid team doesn't cover everything required to complete a Raid wing, they have no voice actors, no weapon and armor skin makers, no music composer, so they had to use resources from other departments to finish it. That said, I can already think of multiple ways to solve that problem, if those external factors cause the raid release to schedule to DOUBLE (from 4 months to 9 months) then they should've found ways to mitigate their effect.

    If VA is an issue, have less VA in the Raid. If armor skins are the issue then put them with question marks, like the Legendary Armor collection items, and add them at a later time. Give the instance to guilds for testing, remember guilds used to test Raids, BEFORE VA and skin rewards are complete, their job is to test the gameplay and mechanics anyway. In the end the Raid team could've created multiple Raid wings and put them in the pipeline to be fleshed out with VA and skins at a later time, the team working on Wing 7, while Wing 6 VA is being completed and Wing 5 has some final skin adjustments before it's officially released. And of course solve the by far biggest management mistake of Raid releases: combining them with Episode releases. That was by far the dumbest decision of them all.

    All ways to speed up the process considerably and cost very little in terms of resources, just better managed. But we didn't see anything happening and the reason is simple, once Forsaken Thicket was completed the "Raid team" didn't exist anymore as developers focused on Raids, they were moved to work on the Living World and the Expansion instead, then moved to work on Fractals as well, in other words they spread them all over the place like butter on a loaf of bread. The summary is that the team working properly could've created a LOT of Raid wings and then simply wait for them to be further fleshed out and released when completed. It's unreasonable to double the release cadence of something due to voice acting, and not do anything to solve that, it wasn't even hard.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'm not misinterpreting the quote. The time needed to create a Raid by the Raid team is given.

    No, nowhere in that quote it is said that it is all the time needed to create a Raid. You added that completely on your own.

    It's all back again to people like you having more expectations about Raids than Anet was ever willing to fulfill. Apparently they didn't think raids were popular enough to warrant its own dedicated team - especially when they needed a team from fractals as well. You may keep dancing around that point, trying to make it somehow go away, but it remains - in Anet's eyes raids simply were never important/popular enough to warrant the kind of development raiders wanted for them. It's just that Raiders always kept overestimating their importance, and so were slow to notice that.

    BTW, about you (again) claiming that combining raid releases with LS chapters somehow slowed their whole development cycle. It didn't. While it is true, that it might have delayed some individual wing, the overall speed of development didn't change because of it. At some point we even heard that clearly - that while a raid wing or fractal might have been waiting for the next LS chapter, that delay didn't affect the development schedule at all - all it meant that they were already working on the next instanced content before we even saw the current one.

    But of course we've argued about that very point several times already.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'm not misinterpreting the quote. The time needed to create a Raid by the Raid team is given.

    No, nowhere in that quote it is said that it is all the time needed to create a Raid. You added that completely on your own.

    It is said here:

    For example, with Salvation Pass, we had only about 5-6 people working on it full time for 4 months.

    5-6 developers working full time on it for 4 months was enough to finish it. Not to mention

    And many of those full time people work on 2 raid releases simultaneously

    which means they could've made it way faster if they weren't working on 2 releases simultaneously.\

    And to repeat one more time: this is what was required by the Raid team, not any other teams that might be needed to complete a Raid, like VA, music, sound, weapons and armor design and so on. But as I said, if THOSE were the problem, they could find solutions to bypass them.

    It's all back again to people like you having more expectations about Raids than Anet was ever willing to fulfill.

    My expectations were of a steady release schedule of about 5-6 months for a Raid, depending on its size, a very reasonable time frame given the data they've given us about Raids so far. Anet wasn't going to fulfill something like that as long as their other 215+ developers needed the help of the 5 developers of the Raid team to keep the LW going. For what reason they were so badly needed is anyone's guess and speculation, but that was what killed the Raid release cadence

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    BTW, about you (again) claiming that combining raid releases with LS chapters somehow slowed their whole development cycle. It didn't. While it is true, that it might have delayed some individual wing, the overall speed of development didn't change because of it. At some point we even heard that clearly - that while a raid wing or fractal might have been waiting for the next LS chapter, that delay didn't affect the development schedule at all - all it meant that they were already working on the next instanced content before we even saw the current one.

    Combining raid releases with LS chapters did slow their development cycle as instead of releasing them when ready, they had to wait for an episode to be available to release it. All it meant was the Raid developers were busy working on non-Raid projects in the time between Raid releases, something that wouldn't happen if Raids didn't have to be released together with Episodes. Which brings us to the initial point of why they needed the help of the Raid team in the first place, what was so wrong with the rest of their developers, or so good about the Raid team developers?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'm not misinterpreting the quote. The time needed to create a Raid by the Raid team is given.

    No, nowhere in that quote it is said that it is all the time needed to create a Raid. You added that completely on your own.

    It is said here:

    For example, with Salvation Pass, we had only about 5-6 people working on it full time for 4 months.

    5-6 developers working full time on it for 4 months was enough to finish it.

    No, it was required to finish it. But it was not enough, which is even mentioned in the whole quote further on, where it is brought up that there were more people contributing. You don't know how much work those other people did, how important that was for said wing development, and how much time it added, because it wasn't mentioned. You just chose to assume all of it had zero impact (which is almost certainly not a case) because it fit your preconceptions better.

    Not to mention

    And many of those full time people work on 2 raid releases simultaneously

    which means they could've made it way faster if they weren't working on 2 releases simultaneously.\

    Not necessarily. Not every dev work can be scaled linearly. Yes, perhaps a specific dev might have made his/her work much faster, but if there was even one project in pipeline that couldn't be accelerated such, the overall development time would end up being unaffected. Basically, the whole speed still depends on what is the slowest (or requires most effort) to make. Yes, that might mean that some devs might end up with free time, but unless they can directly help with that slowest work (which often isn't the case - someone doing scripts for the encounters is not necessarily able to help out with work on graphics assets, for example) it's not going to help much at all. Sure, they can work on the second project in the line already, but that one will also be held down with the same thing that was limiting the schedule of the first one.

    And to repeat one more time: this is what was required by the Raid team, not any other teams that might be needed to complete a Raid, like VA, music, sound, weapons and armor design and so on. But as I said, if THOSE were the problem, they could find solutions to bypass them.

    Maybe they couldn't. Or they really needed the devs elsewhere and never planned on them working on raids fulltime on a permanent basis.

    Remember, that at the time raid development started, Anet was still running in a highly inefficient mode where they weren't really able to split their work too much (they weren't able to work on an expansion and LS at the same time, for example). The changes to internal structure happened around the HoTfix patch in April 2016, where they moved a lot of devs to a separate expansion team, created a dedicated LS team, and moved some key devs whose work and expertise was needed in many projecs to core team (and i'm quite sure at least some of the devs that worked on raids before ended up in that core team). Stronghold of the Faithful was released in June 2016, so it might have been only slightly affected by those changes, but any future releases were affected by it fulltime.

    It's all back again to people like you having more expectations about Raids than Anet was ever willing to fulfill.

    My expectations were of a steady release schedule of about 5-6 months for a Raid, depending on its size, a very reasonable time frame given the data they've given us about Raids so far. Anet wasn't going to fulfill something like that as long as their other 215+ developers needed the help of the 5 developers of the Raid team to keep the LW going. For what reason they were so badly needed is anyone's guess and speculation, but that was what killed the Raid release cadence

    First, it wasn't "other 215 devs" because 70 of them were working on PoF, not LS. And of those 145 devs remaining not everyone worked on LS either. Second, it, again, wasn;t just 5 raid devs, because raids still needed a lot of work from people from the core team. Which might have been required in other projects as well. Third, while hiring a full additional team might have solved that problem, apparetly Anet decided that Raids didn't warrant that kind of extra investment (5-10 devs with some key and desirable kind of specialization and experience doesn't really come cheap, you know).

    (and, of course, there's the negative impact on everything coming from those other, secret and unnamed projects draining resources off of everything GW2 except for gemshop)

    Remember, that in the end it still was treated a lot better than, say, WvW or SPvP, so raiders really have no ground to complain. It's just that for a while they thought they were an apple of Anet's eye. And then didn't want to accept the reality when it turned out it wasn't really so.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    BTW, about you (again) claiming that combining raid releases with LS chapters somehow slowed their whole development cycle. It didn't. While it is true, that it might have delayed some individual wing, the overall speed of development didn't change because of it. At some point we even heard that clearly - that while a raid wing or fractal might have been waiting for the next LS chapter, that delay didn't affect the development schedule at all - all it meant that they were already working on the next instanced content before we even saw the current one.

    Combining raid releases with LS chapters did slow their development cycle as instead of releasing them when ready, they had to wait for an episode to be available to release it. All it meant was the Raid developers were busy working on non-Raid projects in the time between Raid releases, something that wouldn't happen if Raids didn't have to be released together with Episodes.

    They already mentioned at some point that waiting for LS did not mean they were sitting on their behind and doing nothing, but were just working on the next project in the line already. If they were working on raid-unrelated projects, that, by itself, was because those other projects needed that. Not due to the LS release cadence. So, again, while attaching release schedule to LS cadence might have delayed some individual wings, there's absolutely no sign that it slowed the development cycle at all. And at least some signs that it didn't.

    (hint: LS release cadence was actually much faster than they were able to release raid wings, if you haven't noticed. They were even unable to keep up with their planned "one wing/one fractal per other LS chapter" schedule, because raid development took too long to be able to release them every other chapter)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    No, it was required to finish it. But it was not enough, which is even mentioned in the whole quote further on, where it is brought up that there were more people contributing. You don't know how much work those other people did, how important that was for said wing development, and how much time it added, because it wasn't mentioned. You just chose to assume all of it had zero impact (which is almost certainly not a case) because it fit your preconceptions better.

    I already addressed the other people required. Where do they say that the others developers had a huge impact on the development of the Raid? There is a difference between other developers adding time and DOUBLING that time. The quote was very clear, 4 months for 5-6 people to finish it, you misinterpreting it and using it as something entirely different is doing nobody a favor.

    Not necessarily. Not every dev work can be scaled linearly. Yes, perhaps a specific dev might have made his/her work much faster, but if there was even one project in pipeline that couldn't be accelerated such, the overall development time would end up being unaffected. Basically, the whole speed still depends on what is the slowest (or requires most effort) to make. Yes, that might mean that some devs might end up with free time, but unless they can directly help with that slowest work (which often isn't the case - someone doing scripts for the encounters is not necessarily able to help out with work on graphics assets, for example) it's not going to help much at all. Sure, they can work on the second project in the line already, but that one will also be held down with the same thing that was limiting the schedule of the first one.

    Working on projects simultaneously means they were working on both projects at the same time, giving developer time on both at the same time. On the other hand, it also meant some of the developers had time extra to work on a different project, meaning what I proposed, to have Raid wings ready mechanic wise, and then flesh them out with VA, music and rewards later down the line would certainly work very well. Give Raid wings to guilds to test them while they aren't 100% complete.

    Maybe they couldn't. Or they really needed the devs elsewhere and never planned on them working on raids fulltime on a permanent basis.

    You don't create a team and advertise said team publicly, to then destroy that team and move its developers to other projects, just a few months later. It was the plan to have a team working full time on Raids, but plans change.

    First, it wasn't "other 215 devs" because 70 of them were working on PoF, not LS. And of those 145 devs remaining not everyone worked on LS either. Second, it, again, wasn;t just 5 raid devs, because raids still needed a lot of work from people from the core team. Which might have been required in other projects as well. Third, while hiring a full additional team might have solved that problem, apparetly Anet decided that Raids didn't warrant that kind of extra investment.

    First, that still leaves us with a lot of developers. But perhaps the problem was the amount of non-developers in the team, like artists that create gem store items. Maybe that small number of Raid developers was a significant proportion of actual developers in the company. But that's also a management mistake.
    Second, the developers from other teams required are irrelevant as there are many many ways to mitigate their required work. It was a conscious decision to use the other developers as much as they did, and it could've been avoided. And still, creating a Raid and keeping it to be fleshed out later on, was another option that could be used.
    Third, no Anet apparently decided that the rest of their developers weren't enough for the release cadence of the LW they had planned. I wonder how much faster LW releases benefit the game, because from what I see, they don't, slower releases tend to be better received. So it was a plan that didn't succeed in the end.

    Remember, that in the end it still was treated a lot better than, say, WvW or SPvP, so raiders really have no ground to complain. It's just that for a while they thought they were an apple of Anet's eye.

    sPVP got a lot of attention during HOT, they even had sponsored tournaments (with real cash prizes). They added a new game mode, they created all the infrastructure for monthly and weekly tournaments. WVW yes it was mostly neglected during HOT.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    BTW, about you (again) claiming that combining raid releases with LS chapters somehow slowed their whole development cycle. It didn't. While it is true, that it might have delayed some individual wing, the overall speed of development didn't change because of it. At some point we even heard that clearly - that while a raid wing or fractal might have been waiting for the next LS chapter, that delay didn't affect the development schedule at all - all it meant that they were already working on the next instanced content before we even saw the current one.

    Combining raid releases with LS chapters did slow their development cycle as instead of releasing them when ready, they had to wait for an episode to be available to release it. All it meant was the Raid developers were busy working on non-Raid projects in the time between Raid releases, something that wouldn't happen if Raids didn't have to be released together with Episodes.

    They already mentioned at some point that waiting for LS did not mean they were sitting on their behind and doing nothing, but were just working on the next project in the line already. If they were working on raid-unrelated projects, that, by itself, was because those other projects needed that. Not due to the LS release cadence. So, again, while attaching release schedule to LS cadence might have delayed some individual wings, there's absolutely no sign that it slowed the development cycle at all. And at least some signs that it didn't.

    I never said they were doing nothing. They were working on unrelated projects instead, the LS release cadence gave them the opportunity, the window, to work on those unrelated projects, instead of working on their area. If their help was absolutely needed remains my big question, why were these people so badly needed. But I guess we won't have an answer to that

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Remember, that in the end it still was treated a lot better than, say, WvW or SPvP, so raiders really have no ground to complain. It's just that for a while they thought they were an apple of Anet's eye. And then didn't want to accept the reality when it turned out it wasn't really so.

    We'll that's not completely true. Some gamemodes being worse of is not an excuse to not complain.

    And to both you and @maddoctor.2738. You're both just making assumptions what could or could not be done. And are clouded by confirmation biases for your own opinion. It's probably better to just let it go. :)

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957
    @maddoctor.2738

    I think you are both right, and both wrong. You are arguing as though there were sensible and reasonable decisions in favor of GW2 made between raid content and open world content, when in reality it probably was between this game and another game. Projects were cancelled which were unrelated to GW2 which took up developer resources. We know that there was a time when it wasn't assured that there would be any story beyond Season 4. At some point, there was a possibility that the game as a whole would have been discontinued. That basically means that everything, even the "successful" areas of the game were not successful enough. The fact that NCSoft intervened, or even how they intervened was not a factor at that time.

    To now argue which content was deemed worthy supporting and which not, is like arguing over what came first: the chicken or the egg.

    Obviously raid content was not delivered as promised, but those resources did not go to other GW2 content. They went to completely different projects. Yes, the raid community has suffered due to that unkept promise or expectation. I'd even go further and argue that the biggest issue is that a lot of resources and work goes into aspects of this game without guaranteed return. Other MMOs with similar approach charge players on a regular basis (not via subscriptions, but by locking players out of desired new endgame content). There is a reason that GW2 always comes up as the best value per $ by far within the genre. That's not something beneficial if the studio can't maintain it's staff payed, the owner happy and the future secured.

    I've made my position know on this: I don't believe the game can or will succeed without a hardcore crowd. Open world content, even an expansion which hopefully will return players, will not keep the revenue up or players engaged enough to maintain this game. We'll soon have the quarterly results for the 2nd quarter of 2020 after very bleak 2019 and Q1 2020.

    The Spvp community has been starved, the WvW community has been starved, the PvE raid community has been starved, even the basic instanced content players have been starved (hello almost 2 years until new fractal).

    As far as raid development, that ship has sailed. The NA raiding scene is near non existent as far as I know, EU is heading there but barely alive still. Releasing a new wing even tomorrow would simply prolong the suffering. Strikes have shown how useless "easy" raid content is to get players raid ready. Players either are willing to engage with others and put in the work, or they are not. Those who are not willing simply scream for the loot, always have. If the developers want to put in the work to release "easy mode raids", go ahead and waste the resources there. At least that way the assets will see some use and given how there are no resources devoted to raid development there is no loss on that front. The incompetent players will still not see a transition to normal raids.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Obviously raid content was not delivered as promised, but those resources did not go to other GW2 content.

    Well we don't know exactly when they started working on the non-GW2 projects. The team was vastly expanded -after- Path of Fire, reached nearly 500 employees from less than 250, so I always assumed that work on those projects started with the release of Path of Fire or shortly afterwards. This leaves us with the duration of S3, which is the era me and Astral are having the argument about. But I guess it's pointless ancient history at this point

  • Rukia.4802Rukia.4802 Member ✭✭✭

    I put my 2 copper in if you care to read, we must show support for raids and make them more accessible.

    First off, don't get triggered that someone twisted your words, people do that for any dev in any game all the time and also claim false promises etc.. don't let it bother you, keep communicating.

    I love raids because 1) they're epic , plain and simple. 2) They finally take advantage of the games combat system and went beyond auto attacking. 3) They introduced proper roles, trinity is NOT a bad thing specially if its accessible, look at ESO or GW1.

    No offense, but ZoS succeeded completely where you guys failed completely in the "play how you want" department, because you dropped trinity. Raids changed this, and you can even see roles in strikes now, which feels important.

    4) Its a fight in a controlled non-zerg environment, aka not open world so it feels 10x better already than any other content aside from fracs which are also too easy and limited to 5man.

    And last but not least 5) They are FUN and not boring!

    PS: instead of using resources on strikes (unless you want to design them along side raids) I believe you need to introduce an easier difficulty for raids. Don't let your content go to waste or try to push non-raiders in, if you get them an ez mode they will try it. This is extremely successful in WoW.

    Consider an instance finder queue, which would massively boost dungeon and fractal participation while removing the anxiety (for introverts) of having to make a group.

    2/3 accounts forum banned
    Fix hide party/squad nameplate
    Add particle effect slider/ability to turn friendly player effects off

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    keep the discussion in reddit.

    Death is Energy [DIE] & Bongbong [BB] in FoW
    Envoy's Herald, EAoA, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • Rednik.3809Rednik.3809 Member ✭✭

    Good riddance. If gamemode failing to appeal to broad audience, it is a waste of developers time, regardless of how many developers were assigned. WoW and FFXIV raids managed to adapt and succeded, GW2 ones isn't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Rednik.3809 said:
    Good riddance. If gamemode failing to appeal to broad audience, it is a waste of developers time, regardless of how many developers were assigned. WoW and FFXIV raids managed to adapt and succeded, GW2 ones isn't.

    That's actually not true at all. And probably the biggest fallacy that gets used on the fora.

    True, that's way oversimplified, to the point it indeed becomes a fallacy. It's not (and never was) about gamemode not appealing to a broad audience. It's about gamemode appealing to an audience that is way too low in proportion to resources needed to sustain said gamemode. And that is a problem. It's all about gain per effort ratio.

    Assume for simplicity that you know that 10% of the players would leave by not adding a specific game mode. Presume that the remaining 90 are split 1% hates it and 89% does not care. Than adding this game mode would have value although it has no broad appeal.

    That again is oversimplification. In the end, you don't add a new content in vacuum. I mean, it may be that 89% players do not care about adding such a gamemode. But if, in order to sustain that gamemode, you would need to shift the resources off from the content they like (or in any way affect the things they like), then suddenly you may find that those players are no longer as neutral as before.

    And it's even a bit more wider than the gain per effort factor i mentioned before. A good example was the Envoy armor set - there were quite a number of players that, while not really caring about raids or their inclusion in the game at all, suddenly got angry due to PvE legendary armor getting raid-locked.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Rednik.3809Rednik.3809 Member ✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:
    Assume for simplicity that you know that 10% of the players would leave by not adding a specific game mode. Presume that the remaining 90 are split 1% hates it and 89% does not care. Than adding this game mode would have value although it has no broad appeal.

    Except that I'm hardly can imagine that even a significant part of the active raiding population would leave because there is no new raids anymore.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    True, that's way oversimplified, to the point it indeed becomes a fallacy. It's not (and never was) about gamemode not appealing to a broad audience. It's about gamemode appealing to an audience that is way too low in proportion to resources needed to sustain said gamemode. And that is a problem. It's all about gain per effort ratio.

    "Game mode" is one way to look at it, but this only takes into account "those that Raid" vs "those that don't Raid". Why not make a comparison between actual content?

    How many players enjoy/play the Beetle race or the Skyscale adventure in Grothmar Valley?
    Or even better, how many even have a Beetle or a Skyscale?
    How many players enjoy/play Whisper of Jormag or even Shiverpeak Pass Strike Mission?
    How many players enjoy/play the Light Puzzles in Bjora Marches? Or the Gauntlet of Khan Ur in Grothmar Valley?
    How many players got the complete map meta achievement of any given Living World Episode?

    There are way too many things to compare the "Audience" of Raids with, but it appears that the comparisons around the forums only between "those that Raid" vs "those that don't Raid", as if the latter do absolutely everything else in the game, which is a fallacy. Raids got cancelled because of the "small audience" they attract, I'd like a comparison between the audience of Raids and the audience of any of the above (and more)

    But if, in order to sustain that gamemode, you would need to shift the resources off from the content they like

    What's the "content they like" is the big question

    @Rednik.3809 said:
    If gamemode failing to appeal to broad audience, it is a waste of developers time, regardless of how many developers were assigned.

    Yes because all those I mentioned above appeal to such a broad audience, it's staggering!

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Rednik.3809 said:
    Good riddance. If gamemode failing to appeal to broad audience, it is a waste of developers time, regardless of how many developers were assigned. WoW and FFXIV raids managed to adapt and succeded, GW2 ones isn't.

    That's actually not true at all. And probably the biggest fallacy that gets used on the fora.

    True, that's way oversimplified, to the point it indeed becomes a fallacy. It's not (and never was) about gamemode not appealing to a broad audience. It's about gamemode appealing to an audience that is way too low in proportion to resources needed to sustain said gamemode. And that is a problem. It's all about gain per effort ratio.

    Edit:Sort of but not completely, otherwise you could argue the ls should disappear . Its about saturation levels of content (whats enough of a contenttype to keep people playing/happy without overinvesting and its about gains in playernumbers by introducing things in the game.

    Assume for simplicity that you know that 10% of the players would leave by not adding a specific game mode. Presume that the remaining 90 are split 1% hates it and 89% does not care. Than adding this game mode would have value although it has no broad appeal.

    That again is oversimplification. In the end, you don't add a new content in vacuum. I mean, it may be that 89% players do not care about adding such a gamemode. But if, in order to sustain that gamemode, you would need to shift the resources off from the content they like (or in any way affect the things they like), then suddenly you may find that those players are no longer as neutral as before.

    And it's even a bit more wider than the gain per effort factor i mentioned before. A good example was the Envoy armor set - there were quite a number of players that, while not really caring about raids or their inclusion in the game at all, suddenly got angry due to PvE legendary armor getting raid-locked.

    Well yes my example was an oversimplification, but is was mostly used to show that in some cases things that have no broad appeal can be better investmenst then those that are. (the game doesn't consist out of two groups after all and all these groups are intertwinged). The hardest part in real life is knowing the numbers.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rednik.3809 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Assume for simplicity that you know that 10% of the players would leave by not adding a specific game mode. Presume that the remaining 90 are split 1% hates it and 89% does not care. Than adding this game mode would have value although it has no broad appeal.

    Except that I'm hardly can imagine that even a significant part of the active raiding population would leave because there is no new raids anymore.

    Then i guess you've not been paying attention? Lots of guilds left because of the perceived drought for example.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    True, that's way oversimplified, to the point it indeed becomes a fallacy. It's not (and never was) about gamemode not appealing to a broad audience. It's about gamemode appealing to an audience that is way too low in proportion to resources needed to sustain said gamemode. And that is a problem. It's all about gain per effort ratio.

    "Game mode" is one way to look at it, but this only takes into account "those that Raid" vs "those that don't Raid". Why not make a comparison between actual content?

    How many players enjoy/play the Beetle race or the Skyscale adventure in Grothmar Valley?
    Or even better, how many even have a Beetle or a Skyscale?
    How many players enjoy/play Whisper of Jormag or even Shiverpeak Pass Strike Mission?
    How many players enjoy/play the Light Puzzles in Bjora Marches? Or the Gauntlet of Khan Ur in Grothmar Valley?
    How many players got the complete map meta achievement of any given Living World Episode?

    There are way too many things to compare the "Audience" of Raids with, but it appears that the comparisons around the forums only between "those that Raid" vs "those that don't Raid", as if the latter do absolutely everything else in the game, which is a fallacy. Raids got cancelled because of the "small audience" they attract, I'd like a comparison between the audience of Raids and the audience of any of the above (and more)

    But if, in order to sustain that gamemode, you would need to shift the resources off from the content they like

    What's the "content they like" is the big question

    @Rednik.3809 said:
    If gamemode failing to appeal to broad audience, it is a waste of developers time, regardless of how many developers were assigned.

    Yes because all those I mentioned above appeal to such a broad audience, it's staggering!

    This does explain what i was trying to way better. I completely agree. :)

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Rednik.3809 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Assume for simplicity that you know that 10% of the players would leave by not adding a specific game mode. Presume that the remaining 90 are split 1% hates it and 89% does not care. Than adding this game mode would have value although it has no broad appeal.

    Except that I'm hardly can imagine that even a significant part of the active raiding population would leave because there is no new raids anymore.

    Then i guess you've not been paying attention? Lots of guilds left because of the perceived drought for example.

    +1 this

    This is also reflected in WvW as well where end of last year and beginning of this year, a lot of guilds and players started/continued leaving. Servers were down to only 1 full on US and 2 full on EU (can't speak for Spvp since I haven't regularly Spvped in a while and am not aware of many Spvp guild). The developers were even required to completely remove Tier 5 in WvW temporarily. The only reason for recovery here is actually the virus forcing players to stay inside, which made players return for a time being.

    It's almost as though lack of content for players desired game mode and in game activity, unrelated to which of the 3 main segments of the game it might be (PvE, Spvp or WvW), makes players quit. Who would have thought?

    Yet even all that could be acceptable, if the games revenue was reflecting a positive upturn and ultimately reinforcing the development directions taken, which it has not. At least not up until end of Q1 2020. On the contrary, the game has been on a steady decline.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Rednik.3809 said:
    Good riddance. If gamemode failing to appeal to broad audience, it is a waste of developers time, regardless of how many developers were assigned. WoW and FFXIV raids managed to adapt and succeded, GW2 ones isn't.

    That's actually not true at all. And probably the biggest fallacy that gets used on the fora.

    True, that's way oversimplified, to the point it indeed becomes a fallacy. It's not (and never was) about gamemode not appealing to a broad audience. It's about gamemode appealing to an audience that is way too low in proportion to resources needed to sustain said gamemode. And that is a problem. It's all about gain per effort ratio.

    I still feel like your argument would only make sense if Raids were this massive undertaking akin to LW where half the company worked on it in multiple teams, giving it their best in cranking out that content, but in the end it still just wasn't enough to maintain the Raid community which had completely unreasonable expectations.

    But that's still just not at all what happened.

    Anet assigned a tiny team to all of organised/instanced endgame content, never gave them the resources to build up enough content to maintain a healthy community no matter how forgiving the community and low the expectations were, with people just begging for anything at a just somewhat reasonable pace of two content drops a year or so, and then just watched the self-fulfilling prophecy unfold in the statistics, deeming it not worth to invest even the little resources into it that they did before the slow decline, instead of ever giving it a proper shot.

    You can literally use any content format and excuse it as "just not working" if it never received enough resources to be made to work.
    Imo LW didn't ever "work" at the best of times, but imagine the LW team had always just been 5-10 people, releasing a 15-30 minute LW patch every 9+ months - ofc people would then go and say, well LW is just not working, why do they even bother, because nobody would care about it at that point/not stay around and wait for that content specifically.

    ~5 people out of a ~250 people company creating content that initially appealed to 10-30% of the playerbase of an MMO for the first year or two when it appeared properly supported and coming out at a reasonable pace, is pretty incredible, especially when we consider the level of engagement it garnered from those players.

    It's one thing to make some easy accessable auto attack content, slap some great rewards onto it and then watch the participation numbers be fantastic, but beyond the participation statistic looking good on paper, that doesn't make it great and engaging content when a significant amount of those players completing that content are just dredging through it, bored out of their mind, for some shiny and because they are already invested into the game for other reasons and there not being anything else to do.

    It's something entirely else to create content that requires player investment and deep engagement with the game just to complete, and seeing the numbers we did for it, especially for how little company resources were spared to create it, not only the amount of people that engaged with Raids, but also the level of engagement of the players that Anet got out of that was impressive.

    Seeing how much playtime and joy just <10 people generated with Raids just makes me look at the rest of the Game and wonder wth everybody else is doing.

    And as doc said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    "Game mode" is one way to look at it, but this only takes into account "those that Raid" vs "those that don't Raid". Why not make a comparison between actual content?

    How many players enjoy/play the Beetle race or the Skyscale adventure in Grothmar Valley?
    Or even better, how many even have a Beetle or a Skyscale?
    How many players enjoy/play Whisper of Jormag or even Shiverpeak Pass Strike Mission?
    How many players enjoy/play the Light Puzzles in Bjora Marches? Or the Gauntlet of Khan Ur in Grothmar Valley?
    How many players got the complete map meta achievement of any given Living World Episode?

    There are way too many things to compare the "Audience" of Raids with, but it appears that the comparisons around the forums only between "those that Raid" vs "those that don't Raid", as if the latter do absolutely everything else in the game, which is a fallacy. Raids got cancelled because of the "small audience" they attract, I'd like a comparison between the audience of Raids and the audience of any of the above (and more)

    The game population is not people who exclusively play Raids vs. people who play everything but Raids.
    GW2 is chock-full of abandon-content, things ANet tried but never gave proper resources to so it could actually succeed as content form.

    Is the concept of Guild Missions content that just inherently doesn't generate enough returns for the resources put in? No, it could have actually been incredibly valuable to the game to have these community building events for guilds, but it just wasn't ever properly supported to see that happen.
    Are Beetle Races, Adventures, Dungeons, Fractals, Raids, WvW, sPvP, Bounties, soon to be Strikes and on and on and on and on?

    Imo, no. But Anet just seems to poke around in the dark, putting content feelers out and just waiting to strike gold and for something they put out to explode in popularity to then put proper resources into it, but that's just not how it usually works. They are putting the cart before the horse.
    All of these things, Raids included, could have worked and been fantastic for the game and garnering popularity, if they had been backed by a vision and been properly supported.

    The problem with GW2, or rather Anet, isn't any one of those pieces of content "not working" or "not being worth the resources", but the company structure that produces it - where seemingly content entirely depends on the passion of a talented dev or small group of devs, to basically pursue something as passion/hobby project to see what will stick, judged by misleading participation statistics which don't show why or how much people care, without ever being supported enough to actually do stick, rather than there being a company vision over what to make of the game and then backing that with resources to make it work.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    True, that's way oversimplified, to the point it indeed becomes a fallacy. It's not (and never was) about gamemode not appealing to a broad audience. It's about gamemode appealing to an audience that is way too low in proportion to resources needed to sustain said gamemode. And that is a problem. It's all about gain per effort ratio.

    "Game mode" is one way to look at it, but this only takes into account "those that Raid" vs "those that don't Raid". Why not make a comparison between actual content?

    Exactly. That's why i said this is way more complicated and involves a lot of factors. Nothing in this game exists in vacuum, and every change you do to one content ripples throughout the whole game. So, you can't simply say "89% do not care about raids", for example, because even if they truly don;t care about the content itself, they may care about the "ripples".

    And yes, the same goes for every other content, obviously.

    The problems with raids, compared with the other stuff you mentioned was that it caused some really massive ripples all over the game. If there was no such a great effort to make a lot of players interested in their existence, the backlash would have been much, much smaller. Perhaps even unnoticeable.
    Not many players, after all, cared that they couldn't do Liadri, for example. Only one person cared about PvP tournament titles (although that person was so vocal he did manage to make those changed, which still leaves me baffled). There are people that still can't do a number of existing JPs (and, again, almost noone cares). Even the case of Gift of Battle no longer creates such heated arguments it once did.

    So, yeah, raids are in a way special here. And it's partly by design, i'm afraid. They were made to be special. And paid the price for it.

    Although i do agree, that Anet's methodology of throwing stuff at the wall and looking if it sticks, and abandonig content if they;re even a bit dissatisfied with it doesn't help the game in the long run. I know that it may seem easier (and more fun) to start working on new stuff than trying to fix old stuff trying to make it work better, but that tendency does make the game filled with carcasses of old abandoned ideas. Which isn't exactly showing anything positive to potential new players. Or even to many old ones.

    Just as you are dissatisfied with them not supporting raids enough, i am equally dissatisfied with them abandoning dungeons. And i guess both of those contents were abandoned for the same reason - Anet not being willing to allocate enough resources to them.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That's why i said this is way more complicated and involves a lot of factors.

    Yes that comment was also aimed at all the "Raids failed because they attracted a small audience" comments, that has all the same issues. It IS way more complicated than that, but on these forums it appears as if it's not.

    And btw I forgot to mention this earlier:

    It's about gamemode appealing to an audience that is way too low in proportion to resources needed to sustain said gamemode.

    You do realize that if something requires a lot of resources they can lower the amount of resources needed instead of taking far longer to release it, right? If Raids require a lot of Voice Acting or a lot of work for Armor and Weapon skins, they can very easily reduce both of those. The argument that Raids required a lot of resources and that's why their release cadence suffered, only tells us about a severe lack of proper management in the company. Raids that require less resources are perfectly doable (see: Strike Missions) so blaming the "resources" for the lack of releases isn't really accurate.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That's why i said this is way more complicated and involves a lot of factors.

    Yes that comment was also aimed at all the "Raids failed because they attracted a small audience" comments, that has all the same issues. It IS way more complicated than that, but on these forums it appears as if it's not.

    And btw I forgot to mention this earlier:

    It's about gamemode appealing to an audience that is way too low in proportion to resources needed to sustain said gamemode.

    You do realize that if something requires a lot of resources they can lower the amount of resources needed instead of taking far longer to release it, right? If Raids require a lot of Voice Acting or a lot of work for Armor and Weapon skins, they can very easily reduce both of those. The argument that Raids required a lot of resources and that's why their release cadence suffered, only tells us about a severe lack of proper management in the company. Raids that require less resources are perfectly doable (see: Strike Missions) so blaming the "resources" for the lack of releases isn't really accurate.

    Strikes, apparently, were an attempt to do exactly that. Since there were some expectations attached to Raids already, and they knew that breaking those will result in at least part of the raider community being dissatisfied, they decided to replace them with Strikes, that, being a completely new content, had no expectations attached to them whatsoever. This allowed them to invest a lot less resources, but also use that avenue to introduce content of much more varying difficulty (which, if done in raids, would have made a lot of raiders angry).

    It's what we were talking again - something didn't work in their previous approach, so, instead of putting a lot of effort into fixing it, they'd rather start over with a new idea.

    Same thing they did earlier with dungeons -> Fractals

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2020

    Fractals/Dungeons/Strike Missions/Raids = Renamed Side/Abandoned project in Forums section.

    Only can say they have a very limited resources to further develop or work on anything simultaneously. Would say the main focus would be Living Story (to keep the game moving, just lacks replay-ability). WvW, Fractals, Dungeons, Strike Missions, Raids or any upcoming additions are probably in the same side bundle. Nothing decisive to propel the game towards any direction.

    PS : Its silent, but Alliance is probably waiting... to be worked on.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Rednik.3809 said:
    Good riddance. If gamemode failing to appeal to broad audience, it is a waste of developers time, regardless of how many developers were assigned. WoW and FFXIV raids managed to adapt and succeded, GW2 ones isn't.

    That's actually not true at all. And probably the biggest fallacy that gets used on the fora.

    True, that's way oversimplified, to the point it indeed becomes a fallacy. It's not (and never was) about gamemode not appealing to a broad audience. It's about gamemode appealing to an audience that is way too low in proportion to resources needed to sustain said gamemode. And that is a problem. It's all about gain per effort ratio.

    Edit:Sort of but not completely, otherwise you could argue the ls should disappear . Its about saturation levels of content (whats enough of a contenttype to keep people playing/happy without overinvesting and its about gains in playernumbers by introducing things in the game.

    Assume for simplicity that you know that 10% of the players would leave by not adding a specific game mode. Presume that the remaining 90 are split 1% hates it and 89% does not care. Than adding this game mode would have value although it has no broad appeal.

    That again is oversimplification. In the end, you don't add a new content in vacuum. I mean, it may be that 89% players do not care about adding such a gamemode. But if, in order to sustain that gamemode, you would need to shift the resources off from the content they like (or in any way affect the things they like), then suddenly you may find that those players are no longer as neutral as before.

    And it's even a bit more wider than the gain per effort factor i mentioned before. A good example was the Envoy armor set - there were quite a number of players that, while not really caring about raids or their inclusion in the game at all, suddenly got angry due to PvE legendary armor getting raid-locked.

    Well yes my example was an oversimplification, but is was mostly used to show that in some cases things that have no broad appeal can be better investmenst then those that are. (the game doesn't consist out of two groups after all and all these groups are intertwinged). The hardest part in real life is knowing the numbers.

    @Astralporing.1957
    And in retrospect it seems you you didn't get my point at all. Because it's not even about appeal vs resources. It's about the amount of people you gain by having the content vs the amount you would have focusing on something else. It's about diminishing returns of focusing on one content type. That's the reason new maps you add adventures etc to new maps.1 adventure will probably hold more people then an extra event.

  • disForm.2837disForm.2837 Member ✭✭

    I work on the software development industry. While i have absolutely no clue what's going on with Anet specifically, i have seen this kind of behaviour from the inside multiple times.

    • Software is a very mobile industry, in the sense that talent moves around a lot. Building expertise, especially in something specific like gaming development it's not easy nor fast. It's a very top heavy industry, where it's said (and somewhat proven) the top 10% produce 90% of the work. When you lose one of those top talent, it's really hard to replace and can set you back weeks/months. Anet is competing with giants like Blizzard and the likes.
    • Evaluating software project costs it's probably one, if not the hardest task you can imagine. It doesn't matter if it's Anet or Google/FB/Microsoft (i have friends on each one of the latter), many times projects run overbudget/over time. Anet doesn't have the resources nor revenue of those other giants, they have to pick their battles very carefully.
    • They over extended years ago and are clearly on recovery mode. They have a business model they deem sustainable. When something terrible happens and massive layoff occurs, bean counters have the upper hand and you are forced to work on "secure" and easy projects (festivals, minor releases), immediate revenue items (hello cosmetics and skins) or the most effective way to generate future revenue (expansions).

    This is what we are seeing now, they don't have the workforce, the resources or the freedom to work on "side" projects that cater to small percentage of the population (whatever that percentage is). I'm pretty sure they are absolutely focused, almost every "top talent", dedicated to the next expansion. A fiasco there and we can say goodbye to the studio/GW2. No executive will risk the future of the company on side projects while there is so much on the line.

    For those who says "only 5 or 6 developers full time for 4 months", are you kidding? that's an enormous investment for a medium size company like Anet. Keep in mind, you need more than devs to make any project succeed. Project managers, UI designers, QAs and more is required.

    Sorry for the text wall.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @disForm.2837 said:
    This is what we are seeing now, they don't have the workforce, the resources or the freedom to work on "side" projects that cater to small percentage of the population (whatever that percentage is)

    Of course that's because the rest of the game is played by everyone and is one complete package and not split in many different types of content. Only Raids cater to a small percentage and nothing else. /s

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @disForm.2837 said:
    This is what we are seeing now, they don't have the workforce, the resources or the freedom to work on "side" projects that cater to small percentage of the population (whatever that percentage is)

    Of course that's because the rest of the game is played by everyone and is one complete package and not split in many different types of content. Only Raids cater to a small percentage and nothing else. /s

    I'm quite sure that most of those things you brought up earlier would not require a constant effort of dedicated group of devs to keep running. That is the difference.

    I doubt, for example, that strikes have a dedicated team that does only them and nothing else. If anything, they probably run on even lower resources than raids did. I am absolutely sure, that jumping puzzles, or adventures, do not have even a single dev that is solely dedicated to doing them. They are something that gets done in between some main projects. I'm sure that if raids could have been done the same way, they would not end up abandoned.
    The same situation goes for WvW, for example - it also can't really sustain itself on limited dev attention, and would need a dedicated team to be kept alive (a team that apparently it also doesn't have).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • disForm.2837disForm.2837 Member ✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @disForm.2837 said:
    This is what we are seeing now, they don't have the workforce, the resources or the freedom to work on "side" projects that cater to small percentage of the population (whatever that percentage is)

    Of course that's because the rest of the game is played by everyone and is one complete package and not split in many different types of content. Only Raids cater to a small percentage and nothing else. /s

    Start defining "rest of the game", because raids are clearly small part of the whole game, instanced and basically not related with anything else. What other part of the game is getting updated? WoW, PvP, Dungeons? Stop being sarcastic and write something constructive.

    The new expansion is where they plan to make their money, period. Open world, stories, metas, even masteries are way more common than raids. New expansion it's something they can promote, market, SELL. And yes, a new expansion is a complete package even if not every aspect of it is played by everybody.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @disForm.2837 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @disForm.2837 said:
    This is what we are seeing now, they don't have the workforce, the resources or the freedom to work on "side" projects that cater to small percentage of the population (whatever that percentage is)

    Of course that's because the rest of the game is played by everyone and is one complete package and not split in many different types of content. Only Raids cater to a small percentage and nothing else. /s

    Start defining "rest of the game"

    Rest of the game is anything outside Raids from your context of "raids cater to a small percentage". Unless you can prove without any doubt that those that do not play WVW, PVP, Dungeons, Fractals and Raids play absolutely everything else that you can put in one single package. Because no, what's left after those isn't unified and played by a certain "majority" either.
    You can find some inspiration here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1291001/#Comment_1291001

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I'm quite sure that most of those things you brought up earlier would not require a constant effort of dedicated group of devs to keep running. That is the difference.

    There was no constant effort towards Raids either, there was no dedicated team either as you can clearly see on their wiki pages what those developers that were supposed to be on the Raid team worked on, outside Raids. After the initial 3 Raids of course, those were indeed created by an actual dedicated team.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I'm quite sure that most of those things you brought up earlier would not require a constant effort of dedicated group of devs to keep running. That is the difference.

    There was no constant effort towards Raids either, there was no dedicated team either as you can clearly see on their wiki pages what those developers that were supposed to be on the Raid team worked on, outside Raids. After the initial 3 Raids of course, those were indeed created by an actual dedicated team.

    Yes, but notice how you said that it was nowhere close to being enough.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Bakeneko.5826Bakeneko.5826 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @disForm.2837 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @disForm.2837 said:
    This is what we are seeing now, they don't have the workforce, the resources or the freedom to work on "side" projects that cater to small percentage of the population (whatever that percentage is)

    Of course that's because the rest of the game is played by everyone and is one complete package and not split in many different types of content. Only Raids cater to a small percentage and nothing else. /s

    Start defining "rest of the game"

    Rest of the game is anything outside Raids from your context of "raids cater to a small percentage". Unless you can prove without any doubt that those that do not play WVW, PVP, Dungeons, Fractals and Raids play absolutely everything else that you can put in one single package. Because no, what's left after those isn't unified and played by a certain "majority" either.
    You can find some inspiration here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1291001/#Comment_1291001

    So you are saying, that raids are popular, while devs say pariticipation of community in them is low... Hm.... Who do I trust, soem random dude on forums or dev?

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2020

    @disForm.2837 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @disForm.2837 said:
    This is what we are seeing now, they don't have the workforce, the resources or the freedom to work on "side" projects that cater to small percentage of the population (whatever that percentage is)

    Of course that's because the rest of the game is played by everyone and is one complete package and not split in many different types of content. Only Raids cater to a small percentage and nothing else. /s

    Start defining "rest of the game", because raids are clearly small part of the whole game, instanced and basically not related with anything else. What other part of the game is getting updated? WoW, PvP, Dungeons? Stop being sarcastic and write something constructive.

    The new expansion is where they plan to make their money, period. Open world, stories, metas, even masteries are way more common than raids. New expansion it's something they can promote, market, SELL. And yes, a new expansion is a complete package even if not every aspect of it is played by everybody.

    I don't think anyone is arguing that an expansion isn't the right move, if anything that's what should have happened almost a year ago instead of the "Saga".
    The game desperately needs it and focusing on LW was a terrible (financial and otherwise) decision.

    I disagree though that Raids/hardcore instanced PvE is a "small" part of the game as well as that it can't be marketed or doesn't promote the game (see Teapot's Raiding Tournament), as it essentially represents one of the four pillars of GW2, those (imo) being play alone together AA PvE, sPvP, WvW and organised/challenging instanced PvE (or sPvE).
    I don't think the game can survive catering to just one of those pillars long term, especially if it's the least repeatable, bang for your buck and community building one, and the current financial trend shows that.
    An expansion, especially if it once again just caters to that one aspect of the game, may prolong that decline with sales and hype, but not for all that long.

    Yes, more people engage with Story content and things like masteries than more specific/contained aspects of the game, but for how long? It's a tremendous amount of workload compared to any other type of content (sPvE, sPvP, WvW) for at best a few hours of engagement for most players in return, except for maybe another "niche" like meta events, which are at least some degree of repeatable, even if personally boring to me as it's just yet more auto attacking to "win".

    As for Raids being instanced and not really having anything to do with the rest of the game, so is every LW map really when you think about it.

    A dungeon, guild mission, fractal, Raid, PvP/WvW updates etc. would imo be a lot more enriching to the game, especially with how saturated the game is with OW maps at this point, most of which are in desolation.

    I also disagree with that an Expansion is a "complete package", at least after PoF. HoT might have been pretty close to that, but PoF pretty much just catered to that one niche/pillar of the game as well, which then had to get carried fairly hard by quick follow up content with LW S4 to keep people engaged.
    An Expansion is definitely a much better package than LW, coming with things like Elite Specs which drastically shape the game and it's replayability, but it's far from complete without direct contributions to the other, more repeatable/longterm viable, pillars - which is imo what the game needs to be sustainable for much longer.

    @Bakeneko.5826 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @disForm.2837 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @disForm.2837 said:
    This is what we are seeing now, they don't have the workforce, the resources or the freedom to work on "side" projects that cater to small percentage of the population (whatever that percentage is)

    Of course that's because the rest of the game is played by everyone and is one complete package and not split in many different types of content. Only Raids cater to a small percentage and nothing else. /s

    Start defining "rest of the game"

    Rest of the game is anything outside Raids from your context of "raids cater to a small percentage". Unless you can prove without any doubt that those that do not play WVW, PVP, Dungeons, Fractals and Raids play absolutely everything else that you can put in one single package. Because no, what's left after those isn't unified and played by a certain "majority" either.
    You can find some inspiration here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1291001/#Comment_1291001

    So you are saying, that raids are popular, while devs say pariticipation of community in them is low... Hm.... Who do I trust, soem random dude on forums or dev?

    Raid participation was indeed low, after release cadence slowed down to one content drop a year with Wing 4 and on and more and more people abandoned ship since it wasn't worth waiting around for most.

    Raids were fairly popular all things considered when they were properly supported and felt like they had a future and made players comfortable in getting invested in that content.
    Very few will pick up or stick around for any type of content if it's only delivered in small doses once a year, doesn't matter if that's Raids, Story etc.

    The problem with Anet seems to be that they just look at statistics and what's played a lot when it comes to what they put their resources into, which sounds reasonable on paper, except for the fact that what's overall played a lot is what's getting resources invested into it in the first place, luring people in with new shiny and frequent releases.
    So they just keep dumping resources into the same thing in LW, while every other part of the game, along with the game as a whole, slowly withers away.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • disForm.2837disForm.2837 Member ✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I don't think anyone is arguing that an expansion isn't the right move, if anything that's what should have happened almost a year ago instead of the "Saga".
    The game desperately needs it and focusing on LW was a terrible (financial and otherwise) decision.

    I think as well that was a travesty and more of a consequence of the state of the company more than a well thought and clear roadmap. . They needed something out, fast. Companies don't plan in terms of mere quarters, at least not with big projects like MMO games, i can assure you Anet have a roadmap for at least the next year (albeit they will never share it ofc).

    I disagree though that Raids/hardcore instanced PvE is a "small" part of the game as well as that it can't be marketed or doesn't promote the game (see Teapot's Raiding Tournament), as it essentially represents one of the four pillars of GW2, those (imo) being play alone together AA PvE, sPvP, WvW and organised/challenging instanced PvE (or sPvE).

    Honestly, high end content by definition is not for the masses. You have to agree that an average Joe on gw2 is far away from clearing raids. And yes, every game needs that high end content, that's fact, for those that actually made it that high. My comment is more on the context that they are putting their house in order and raids are far from being the most profitable thing on the game.

    I don't think the game can survive catering to just one of those pillars long term, especially if it's the least repeatable, bang for your buck and community building one, and the current financial trend shows that.

    Absolutely, we need a bit of everything.

    I also disagree with that an Expansion is a "complete package", at least after PoF. HoT might have been pretty close to that, but PoF pretty much just catered to that one niche/pillar of the game as well, which then had to get carried fairly hard by quick follow up content with LW S4 to keep people engaged.
    An Expansion is definitely a much better package than LW, coming with things like Elite Specs which drastically shape the game and it's replayability, but it's far from complete without direct contributions to the other, more repeatable/longterm viable, pillars - which is imo what the game needs to be sustainable for much longer.

    Well, that's the point. They prefer (imo, wisely) to work on the expansion instead of any other part of the game. Raids/fractals, etc can be added later on top of that. It's even more efficient that way, since a new specs may change how the game is played, so you can design instances around that.

    I think, and that's me ofc, after the expansion they will focus on those other pillars you mentioned. Every part of the game attract their own player base and need attention. Hell, i absolutely loved MOTA even when i don't touch PvP at all (i play to relax and fun, PvP stress me out way too much).

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2020

    @disForm.2837 said:
    Honestly, high end content by definition is not for the masses. You have to agree that an average Joe on gw2 is far away from clearing raids. And yes, every game needs that high end content, that's fact, for those that actually made it that high. My comment is more on the context that they are putting their house in order and raids are far from being the most profitable thing on the game.

    Ofc, I just think a lot of people have grown tired of Anet "putting the house in order" and "laying foundations for the future" over the last ~5 years, and feel like it's never going to get to the point where stuff is finally sorted out and the nice furniture is coming in and all that.

    While catching their feet is perfectly understandable considering semi recent events, in the greater context of how the game has been managed since launch (causing a lot of the issues down the road which it seems almost everyone but Anet saw coming) I don't blame anyone for getting restless about there still not being solid content pipelines for at least the core content pillars instead of quite the opposite.

    @disForm.2837 said:
    Well, that's the point. They prefer (imo, wisely) to work on the expansion instead of any other part of the game. Raids/fractals, etc can be added later on top of that. It's even more efficient that way, since a new specs may change how the game is played, so you can design instances around that.

    I think, and that's me ofc, after the expansion they will focus on those other pillars you mentioned. Every part of the game attract their own player base and need attention. Hell, i absolutely loved MOTA even when i don't touch PvP at all (i play to relax and fun, PvP stress me out way too much).

    I absolutely agree with focusing on the expansion considering how much rests on it's success, although I do wonder how they can commit so many resources into LW while having next to nothing available for everything else. But at least it seems like we are finally getting a new Fractal CM after 3 years at least, so that is something.

    For the X content can be added later, I think especially for those of us who have been around since the Beta/launch, that just means it ain't coming, or at the very least is years away, at this point. We ran on hope for so many things for so long, it's just out of gas.
    If Anet doesn't directly announce that something is coming "soon", it might as well be dead and buried.

    I ofc hope the next Expansion won't be another PoF with all but one aspect of the game completely forgotten, both in the expansion release and post expansion support, but until I see that confirmed, the assumption for me, and I think many others, is that it's going to be business as usual at this point.
    As I said, Anet not only spent all of their "hope to be catered too in the future" currency with much of their community, they are way in debt with it.

    I'm glad you understand that parts of the game you yourself don't enjoy or play for whatever other reason add to it's appeal and are important to it's success though, even if they have grown into smaller and smaller niches due to lack of support, and should not be forgotten going forward - if we want this ship to keep going for some time still.
    I think too many miss or like to ignore the importance of a game appearing "alive" across the board, and how that can appeal to new players and retain old players even if they themselves have no intend in experiencing many of those aspects any time soon or even ever.

    There is a reason that after nothing but LW for a year the game was pretty much known to be on life support in and outside of much of it's community, with plenty new players being scared away by the fact that aside from some short story every couple months there is nothing fresh and active for them to jump in to look forward too.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I'm quite sure that most of those things you brought up earlier would not require a constant effort of dedicated group of devs to keep running. That is the difference.

    There was no constant effort towards Raids either, there was no dedicated team either as you can clearly see on their wiki pages what those developers that were supposed to be on the Raid team worked on, outside Raids. After the initial 3 Raids of course, those were indeed created by an actual dedicated team.

    Yes, but notice how you said that it was nowhere close to being enough.

    On the contrary.
    Let's call W the amount of work needed to create a new Raid Wing. Let's call D the amount of developer time assigned to Raids. Then the result of W/D can be the number of months required to complete a Raid wing, let's call it M.
    We have the equation: W/D = M of course it's way more complicated than that but let's keep it simple for the sake of argument.
    Yes one way to decrease the value of M and have faster Raid releases, is to increase the amount of developer effort assigned to Raids. But, that's not the only way, reducing the value of W can have the same result. The argument of "Raids didn't get developer resources because they weren't popular enough" is very weak if you think about the equation above.

    All I'm saying is that if they wanted faster Raid releases they could have faster releases and developers assigned to Raids would have very little to do with it. The release cadence was pre-determined (to align with episode releases) and someone higher up thought that this release cadence would be enough. Popularity and revenue had a much smaller role to play, at least compared to what is given all the time on the forums, as I've demonstrated that they could decrease the interval between Raid releases without assigning more resources to them. Simply by making Raids simpler, I think that would be preferred over their slow release.

    That's it, management, scheduling, lack of insight and probably developer stubbornness is what resulted in that slow release cadence.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    @Bakeneko.5826 said:
    So you are saying, that raids are popular, while devs say pariticipation of community in them is low... Hm.... Who do I trust, soem random dude on forums or dev?

    I never said Raids are popular I'm not sure where you got that impression. I simply went away of the comparison "those that Raid" vs "those that do not Raid" and want to make a comparison between "those that Raid" vs "those that do content A" instead. Because as I said, I doubt that "those that do not Raid" are ALL playing EVERYTHING else the game has to offer to put them in the same package. So do you think that those who don't run Raids, do absolutely everything else or not (in a given Living World episode, not including PVP, WVW or Fractals)?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    All I'm saying is that if they wanted faster Raid releases they could have faster releases and developers assigned to Raids would have very little to do with it. The release cadence was pre-determined (to align with episode releases) and someone higher up thought that this release cadence would be enough.

    Factually untrue. We know that the release cadence was planned to be to have fractal and raid instances every other LS chapter. That would make them more like 6-7 months long, not 9-11. Compared to their planned schedule, they were usually one LS behind (or, in case of W5, one episode an a whole expansion behind). That wasn't planned. That was them not being able to catch up to their own schedule. And W7 wasn't even tied to that, it released one month after last LS4 episode, so its delay was even more obviously not a result of what you were talking about, but simply a consequence of them not being able (for whatever reason) to release it earlier.

    That whole hypothesis of yours was never supported by anything beyond your own ideas.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Bakeneko.5826 said:
    So you are saying, that raids are popular, while devs say pariticipation of community in them is low... Hm.... Who do I trust, soem random dude on forums or dev?

    I never said Raids are popular I'm not sure where you got that impression. I simply went away of the comparison "those that Raid" vs "those that do not Raid" and want to make a comparison between "those that Raid" vs "those that do content A" instead. Because as I said, I doubt that "those that do not Raid" are ALL playing EVERYTHING else the game has to offer to put them in the same package. So do you think that those who don't run Raids, do absolutely everything else or not (in a given Living World episode, not including PVP, WVW or Fractals)?

    Funny how you don;t notice that you yourself are one pushing for that special treatment of raids when you are asking for them to be treated differently than all those other contents by developers.
    Mirror puzzles in Bjora Marches? A one-off job, probably done by some dev in between other, more important projects. We'll possibly never see a repeat of them either. Jumping puzzles are something that happens more often, but here, again, it's not a major project, it's not on schedule, and we're never guaranteed to get any with the next content release. They will do one when they feel like it, but when they have no time or resources they will not bother, and noone will complain due to it. Raids are not like that. If they were developed in the same way, with next wings not on schedule, but only done when the devs doing them had a free time to work on another one, ypu can bet you would be even more critical of Anet's approach to them than you're now.

    You expected raids to be treated as something special, something similar to WvW and SPvP (but with far better dev support than those). Something separate from the normal flow of PvE. So, don't be surprised now if everyone else is also looking at them the same way.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    We know that the release cadence was planned to be to have fractal and raid instances every other LS chapter

    How do we -know- this? Got a developer quote when they specifically said that?
    Also, it's curious to check the time frame:
    Out of the Shadows: Chaos Isles Fractal
    Rising Flames: none
    A Crack in the Ice: Nightmare Fractal
    The Head of the Snake: Bastion of the Penitent
    Flashpoint: none
    One Path Ends: Shattered Observatory

    Now there are two releases without a Fractal or Raid release, Rising Flames and Flashpoint. Guess which 2 episodes were worked on by the "Design Lead" of the so called "Raid Team". I will spoil it for you: Rising Flames and Flashpoint. So your "Factually untrue. " is factually false. Raid releases were delayed not because they had extra work to do for those Raids, but because Raid team members (and even the Lead) worked on Living World episodes. You are telling me that using the Raid Team to make Rising Flames and Flashpoint wasn't planned and was a decision made "on the fly"? Please get real, the entire schedule above was pre-determined before S3 even started.

    That doesn't change my point of "if they wanted faster Raid releases, they could've simply made Raids simpler", I'm not really sure how is that disputed.

    And W7 wasn't even tied to that, it released one month after last LS4 episode, so its delay was even more obviously not a result of what you were talking about, but simply a consequence of them not being able (for whatever reason) to release it earlier.

    W7 was delayed thanks to Voice Acting work. And as I was talking about, if something external like VA was the problem, they could've easily reduce the amount of VA needed for W7 to make it on time.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You expected raids to be treated as something special, something similar to WvW and SPvP (but with far better dev support than those).

    Never expected them to be treated as something special though, not really sure how you came up with that idea.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I find it kinda funny that after they said fractal and raids wont be tied to living story releases anymore we got 1 raid then nothing more.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    Although i do agree, that Anet's methodology of throwing stuff at the wall and looking if it sticks, and abandonig content if they;re even a bit dissatisfied with it doesn't help the game in the long run. I know that it may seem easier (and more fun) to start working on new stuff than trying to fix old stuff trying to make it work better, but that tendency does make the game filled with carcasses of old abandoned ideas. Which isn't exactly showing anything positive to potential new players. Or even to many old ones.

    I will upvote this kind of idea every time I see it. I doubt this thread is getting a lot of dev attention, but in the off chance it does.... I would very much like ANet to consider the mounting cost of the abandonment strategy over time. This is exactly what happens - the longer they keep doing that, the more abandoned half-baked stuff accumulates all over the game. It may initially be an intangible effect, but having a game littered with abandoned content feels incredibly different than a game that slowly gets rid of those 'carcasses' and replaces them with relevant, reworked versions of them.

    GW2 has the makings of the single most superior player experience in the market today. The game is so supremely generous on most QoL matters (with a notable exception being the horribly executed build templates), and is deeply respectful of the time and effort players put in. ANet clearly cares about constructing a vibrant and lore-rich world. Yet for all this inherent strength, it struggles compared to games that, in comparison, spit in players' faces. I think the abandonment approach accounts for most of this struggle.

    As for the topic of the thread... lemme just put it this way. I still run dungeon frequenter (much of the paths solo, for sheer convenience) twice a day. At this point I'm beyond caring if raids survive, or if they go the way of dungeons. So long as the reward structure remains in place and they remain doable for the life of the game, I'll live with that.