BALANCE DECISIONS

Balance decisions in the recent past seem to be based mostly on emotion. The community crying out for nerfs has lead to the killing of several builds, but balance is in the same state as before. Why is this? What is going on? How come changes (such as the removal of the Scourge's self-shroud) are being reverted, but the core problems of the game and game mode(s) are not being addressed? The scourge's self-shroud being enabled is a step backwards in the future health and diversity of this game in its current state.

AVAILABILITY OF CLEAVE AND AOE

"Cleave", understood as "hitting multiple targets simultaneously" either through stacking or large AoE abilities, has been a pretty core element of this game's combat since release. However, you will see several of the "core" builds had much more single-target-focused attacks than the Elite builds bring to the table. Elite builds started the rampant scaling-up of abilities in terms of damage, boon, condition, and healing output. Whereas Core Guardian had great self-sustain, and overall boon support, it lacked damage and allied-healing. Firebrand brought damage in the form of heavy base-damage cleaving, a few disables, and more boons and healing than you could ever ask for. All of a sudden, a "bunker" build turned into a full "duelist" build, complete with a "bunker" and "support" sidetype. The AoEs, instead of being small damage hitting a large amount of targets, became a large amount of damage hitting a large amount of targets.

Plague (now plaguelands) used to apply 2 conditions per tick; bleed and your chosen condition (blind most likely). Now, Plaguelands lasts 10 seconds, and becomes increasingly cancer over the duration, effectively denying 1-5 players from capturing a node without extreme risk. The problem here is not that it deals heavy damage to 5 players; the issue is that it deals heavy damage to a single player, and every single player, affected. There is a huge difference in the wording here. An AoE ability in most MMOs will deal a small amount of damage, but to a large target amount, anywhere from 5 to 100 players can be affected. The damage of this AoE would be insignificant against a smaller amount of targets (1-2 targets) and likely be inefficient to use. However, once you have 5 enemies, the ability becomes your top damaging ability.

Currently, we have the opposite situation. An ability, be it AoE or Single-Target, is all meant to be used for single-target. This means that, where in other games, you have to "focus a target" and "interrupt their healing" and "swap targets", in this game, most of that swapping/interrupting/focusing is done on more than one target at a time. You simply have to swing that sword, swing that axe, and you hit all of your associated targets. You throw down a symbol, and watch as your DPS flies across the screen, dealing debilitating and oppressive damage while you eat cheetohs with your other hand.

FIXING THE PROBLEM

1. Reduced cleave target caps. Cleaving target caps reduced from 3 to either 2 or 1.
2. Reduced AOE target caps. AoE should be reduced in PvP from 5 to 3 targets or less. Some AoE abilities could even be single-target.
3. Reduced AoE Damage/Uptime. AoE should not be effective single-target damage in 99% of cases. AoE should be useful at the target cap, not below, and every AoE should not be 100% effective as a single-target ability.

My recommended solution: keep the damage of the AoE abilities the same, but when striking multiple targets, the damage is increased and split evenly between targets, rather than doubling or tripling the damage by adding another target. This would allow cleaving to happen, at a reduced rate, but also to allow counter-cleave by stacking and "absorbing" the damage over a larger amount of targets to go for the revive.

I don’t believe the damage should be lower. However what I do believe is that target caps in general should be removed, and for each additional target that an ability hits, would somehow provide some sort of counter measure that prevents you from casting the spell without dying, much like retaliation.

For example. Lets say thief auto attack on dagger has the potential to auto as many targets as it wants. An effect should be added so that for every additional target hit with dagger 1’s final ability, you inflict poison on yourself.

So if you are lucky enough to smack all 80 people in a Zerg with an auto attack, you’ll hit 80 people, and that’s rewarding...but at the cost of taking 80 poison stacks. That is a true equilibrium mechanic (a trade off) that encourages decision making between rewards and calculated risk.

Likewise the target caps for healing should also be removed for the very same reason. The more people you heal, the more it should come with a cost.

Now we don’t have to remove the target caps...but all abilities should have the potential to hit 10 players, so that all builds can be scale invariant between all game modes. Having abilities that hit 1 target subjects the game to variant scalability...and that’s why we don’t see much thieves or rangers in Zerg play.

There is so many ways to deal with aoe in games that its crazy. Examples.1 Aoe has low target cap ( like you mentioned )2 Aoe has split damage, you throw 5k aoe, hits 2 people. Each takes 2,5k.3 Aoe deals reduced damage per target hit, example -20%( with a cap ofc lets say 50% ) dmg per additinoal target. 5K aoe hits 2 people. dealing 4K to each. or 5 people dealing 2,5k to each.4 Aoe loses its effect when hitting pultiple people. You throw 3k aoe with cripple. you hit 3 people, you deal 3k dmg but cripple.5 Pulsing aoe, make the damage ramping up, example pulses 5 times. each hit deals 100% more dmg. for x dmg, 2x dmg, 3x dmg. as long as you dont get hit by several hits you take VERY low damage.

Zoning/Area Denial through AoE is good gameplay.

It's just not supposed to have constant uptime. That's really bad. Plaguelands since you mention it, alongside Wells are for example healthy zoning tools. They have long cooldowns (although this is being eroded by constant cooldown reductions on Wells) and ideally make an area temporarily off limits for a short time. While things like Shades the way they used to be on old Condi Scourge builds or Engi Nades as well as Guardian Symbols more recently are shining examples of unhealthy zoning and area denial.

Plaguelands should definitely have an easier to see visual though.

Guardian Symbols more recently are shining examples of unhealthy zoning and area denial.

This. Guardian does not need to have such zoning potential on top of all their other AoE. Dragonhunter bow 4 is a good example of a symbol done right, though. Well, was, since they deleted bow from the game and made the class a boring bunker-fester.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:There is so many ways to deal with aoe in games that its crazy. Examples.1 Aoe has low target cap ( like you mentioned )2 Aoe has split damage, you throw 5k aoe, hits 2 people. Each takes 2,5k.3 Aoe deals reduced damage per target hit, example -20%( with a cap ofc lets say 50% ) dmg per additinoal target. 5K aoe hits 2 people. dealing 4K to each. or 5 people dealing 2,5k to each.4 Aoe loses its effect when hitting pultiple people. You throw 3k aoe with cripple. you hit 3 people, you deal 3k dmg but cripple.5 Pulsing aoe, make the damage ramping up, example pulses 5 times. each hit deals 100% more dmg. for x dmg, 2x dmg, 3x dmg. as long as you dont get hit by several hits you take VERY low damage.

All of this, and lowering target caps would absolutely lower skill lag around the fucking world. Imagine actually being able to use skills again in WvW, because every AoE is not hitting 5 people at a time, and instead hit 3. Thats a 40% reduction in calculations that have to be made. ALMOST HALVING IT! JUST BY GOING FROM 5 TO 3 TARGETS. Going from 3 to 1 target for some abilities would be a 66% reduction in calculations for that ability.

Its amazing that they haven't done this yet. AOE in this game is disgusting, long-lasting, and way too damaging.

Just reduce the target caps. Seriously. its an easy solution to the biggest problem facing this game right now, skill lag and aoe stacking.

@Aktium.9506 said:Zoning/Area Denial through AoE is good gameplay.

It's just not supposed to have constant uptime. That's really bad. Plaguelands since you mention it, alongside Wells are for example healthy zoning tools. They have long cooldowns (although this is being eroded by constant cooldown reductions on Wells) and ideally make an area temporarily off limits for a short time. While things like Shades the way they used to be on old Condi Scourge builds or Engi Nades as well as Guardian Symbols more recently are shining examples of unhealthy zoning and area denial.

Plaguelands should definitely have an easier to see visual though.

I agree with this; zoning and area denial is good gameplay. However, my issue with it is that almost EVERY skill hits multiple targets. I'm talking a good 95% of the abilities in this game hit more than 1 target. Its fine if a guardian symbol, or a well, deals a significant amount of damage. Its an issue when a single well can hit AN ENTIRE TEAM'S WORTH OF PLAYERS, while dealing the same damage. That 4k hit, turns into 20k when it hits 5 targets.

It'd be fine if -some- abilities allowed you to zone/area deny. Its not cool when almost every ability prevents you from standing on the one place you have to stand to win. It just promotes AoE stacking. The counter play? Stack better AoEs than the enemy team.

lowing caps for AOE especially for well symbol type would transform the thing a bit rng clown fiesta: oh you enter the well symbol but nothing hapends because someone entered firts and is taking the dmg. oh there are a minion necro and a mesmer caping all hit cap and making all AOE futile etc

wells symbols and related should afect ALL people in area, but they will have a duration reduction on every hit if no one enters in the area its and area denial for all duration of skill, if you place in a enough crowded area(wvw in top of zerk) is a instant aoe that hits everyone once but gets all duration consumed no pulsing over time etc

@Caine.8204 said:

I agree with this; zoning and area denial is good gameplay. However, my issue with it is that almost EVERY skill hits multiple targets. I'm talking a good 95% of the abilities in this game hit more than 1 target. Its fine if a guardian symbol, or a well, deals a significant amount of damage. Its an issue when a single well can hit AN ENTIRE TEAM'S WORTH OF PLAYERS, while dealing the same damage. That 4k hit, turns into 20k when it hits 5 targets.

It'd be fine if -some- abilities allowed you to zone/area deny. Its not cool when almost every ability prevents you from standing on the one place you have to stand to win. It just promotes AoE stacking. The counter play? Stack better AoEs than the enemy team.Most of the issue is ranged AoEs, persisting ground AoEs or AoE effects larger than 240 radius around the player.

Anything that constitutes as melee cleave should rightfully be punishing to encourage positioning, movement and kiting.

Ideally the aforementioned types of AoE should have long enough cooldowns that it's not a constant barrage of area denial. Shorter intervals of it are ok since the natural counter to it is supposed to be either not being in the area that's being zoned or having a burst of defensive tools that a team can coordinate to negate the brunt of it.

@Aktium.9506 said:Ideally the aforementioned types of AoE should have long enough cooldowns that it's not a constant barrage of area denial. Shorter intervals of it are ok since the natural counter to it is supposed to be either not being in the area that's being zoned or having a burst of defensive tools that a team can coordinate to negate the brunt of it.

some longer cooldowns, reduced durations... anything would ease the pressure a little bit. there are too many aoe's, too many outright area denial skills. the issue is that all 5 players are spamming aoe, and then it becomes less about area denial and more of a death ball.