Trait Ancient Seeds needs to be deleted from the game ASAP [ perma immob ranger] — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Trait Ancient Seeds needs to be deleted from the game ASAP [ perma immob ranger]

anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited July 12, 2020 in Ranger

It's difficult to find a more unfun trait to play against than that one. A passive trait which triggers from any random daze and lock you down for 5 seconds.
After the nerf to power damage the kitten roots are tanky as hell. And meanwhile you soaking condi damage.

That trait has to go, a passive 10s immob every 10s in WVW is actually a perma immobilization. It is a extremely bad design and has no place in any passive trait. It's even worse than CI mirage.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ancient_Seeds

Players are complaining about entangle and other ranger skills, those aren't the issues. The issue is this trait. Even in sPvP can be problematic when you can be immob up to 7s every 20s. Passively. Add any skill with immob.

Delete Ancient seeds.

Comments

  • LughLongArm.5460LughLongArm.5460 Member ✭✭✭

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    If I’m understanding the skill right, it triggers on any stun, daze, knock down and launches regardless of the source, all the Druid has to do is hit them? If that is the case, wouldn’t it be better to just change the skill to only trigger on stuns, dazes, knock downs and launches that the Druid inflicts, which would mean it would trigger on lb4, gs 5/4, spike trap, shortbow 5, oh axe 4, staff swap if traited, glyph of equality and tides.

    I agree. It should work like that. They can even make it on daze only. It will be so much easier to apply the roots to several targets with CA 3+ CA 5. +1

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LughLongArm.5460 said:

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    If I’m understanding the skill right, it triggers on any stun, daze, knock down and launches regardless of the source, all the Druid has to do is hit them? If that is the case, wouldn’t it be better to just change the skill to only trigger on stuns, dazes, knock downs and launches that the Druid inflicts, which would mean it would trigger on lb4, gs 5/4, spike trap, shortbow 5, oh axe 4, staff swap if traited, glyph of equality and tides.

    I agree. It should work like that. They can even make it on daze only. It will be so much easier to apply the roots to several targets with CA 3+ CA 5. +1

    Anything done to nerf the trait it would make it too niche to have any use. At that point just remove it and put a new one in its place.
    The roots effect can be given to Staff#4 (Vine surge) so the Druid can keep the CC potential. Active and clearly visible skill.

  • Tanbin.2436Tanbin.2436 Member ✭✭
    edited July 13, 2020

    do people actually use druid in wvw? delete a trait from all game modes because it overperforms in one? if it even overperforms? is it 20s icd in wvw like in pvp? if not make it like that in wvw?

    that fixes it pretty much because it's literally useless in pvp and like you said if it's useless why bother with it. it would involve more dev time to add a GM to a class that is represented by almost nobody in pvp and only used in the PvE raid/fractal community. in their mind, druid is fine and balanced where it should be (PvE) and used a rare niche in pvp. almost ever meta class can cleanse immob consistently, even warrior can cleanse immob through movement skills and it's probably considered one of the worst classes in the game ATM. holo leap, dash thief, ws ranger, movement skills warrior, crev near perma resistance, any condi clear (esp if we're talking small scale and 1v1 where immob can be cleansed easily), etc etc... immob is annoying but it's not broken but like i said in pvp its a 20s icd so it may be different in WvW.

    they won't just remove it, they'll just make it so bad that it's not even worth taking, which in anything outside of WvW (i dont play wvw so i cant even comment on this but given the average IQ of the wvw player it's most likely not good there either and people are just bad) isn't currently so i dont see why there needs to be a change. this most likely is not run in wvw zergs , probably roaming and gw2 doesn't balance around wvw roaming or 1v1 scenario.

    and when i say useless pvp , i know some people will come in here and say "hey guys it works for me in pvp not my fault you're just not using it right!" ... no, against silvers/golds and low plat it CAN be done if your team is carrying. however, running it in inners with top players who actually have brains and pretty much focus druid immediately will destroy you.

    have thoroughly tested multiple side node druid builds and support TF druid builds in top tier inners and tempest outperforms druid by miles with or without ancient seeds. side node will always have core ranger favor because of trait selection and like i said with TF druid , tempest always better.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @iKagura.1903 said:
    do people actually use druid in wvw?

    Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

    What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

    Well, what if you can't....

    Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

    CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

    I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

  • @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @iKagura.1903 said:
    do people actually use druid in wvw?

    Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

    What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

    Well, what if you can't....

    Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

    CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

    I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

    Not moving for two seconds shouldn't be a death sentence. Nerf damage.

  • Kolisch.4691Kolisch.4691 Member ✭✭✭

    Reduce duration stats you can just walk away before the next pulse. Vines just need to be sneezed at to kill and no more pulses unless they run some full condi junk. Teleport, movement skills that negate impaired movement conditions, skills that give you evade frames at the end of the pulse to make the pulse miss, I can go on and on but why bother if all the low quality posts never seem to demonstrate knowing all the counters to this and discuss why they're not enough.

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

    I have been saying this for a while. It's a crutch. And while I think CC should be a part of Druid (as it is with the daze access), Ancient Seed was never a fun trait to use in any scenario (even if there is something to be said about ranger roots and that they don't really do much unless combined with other things like SpB bubbles). The problem is that Anet doesn't seem interested to make those real changes.

    When I brought this up in the profession balance thread after the last balance, there were actual a few people claiming ranger would still have "plenty of utility" to do well in a zerg even if they removed/reduced the immob. Sure, both SB and Druid can do well and bring a few useful things, but compared to the meta professions they're not even close. There is no reason to bring a SB over a Herald if not for immob, and there is no reason to bring a druid over tempest/scrapper if not for immob. Played well enough, druid can get close on cleanses and do good healing, but it lacks all the other utilities scrapper and tempest brings (tempest auras, while scrapper is stacked with condi-to-boon conversion, reliable superspeed, reliable smoke blast for stealth etc).

    In an alternative world, if they went back and did something as simple as giving ranger a Purity of Purpose-like trait (perhaps even instead of engie which is already stacked and in no need of that trait to still stay relevant) as a Nature Magic GM trait, replacing Invigorating Bond, while making Evasive Purity in the master tier apply cleanses to nearby allies as well, similar to Stop, Dodge and Roll for Eles*, Druid would have already been in a much better place without even touching the elite spec itself. I doubt Anet EVER even thought about it like that to begin with it. To me it comes of as if they are either purposefully excluding or just willfully ignoring druid in the wvw zerg conversation.

    *The current version of Evasive Purity illustrates perfectly how Anet is reluctant to give ranger ally support with skills and traits that are similar to those we find on other professions. Making Druid more viable would be a lot easier if core ranger had a tad bit more utility to back up the support role. Ignoring Ancient Seeds, core ranger is what brings the strongest immobs. Without that, you have a mediocre support elite spec with pretty much nothing from the core class to back it up except from the odd skills out like Healing Spring and such. I don' think there is any way they're gonna buff druid to a level where it can excell in a support role independently of core ranger. That's not me asking for them to change the core ranger identity by giving it loads of support, but for Anet too look at the support traits/potential support traits in Nature Magic that are already there. Invigorating Bond is trash, needs to go, and be replaced by something good that doesn't rely on the pet.

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @iKagura.1903 said:
    do people actually use druid in wvw?

    Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

    What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

    Well, what if you can't....

    Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

    CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

    I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

    Not moving for two seconds shouldn't be a death sentence. Nerf damage.

    The more you nerf damage, the stronger you make group numbers. Before, and still now to a lesser extent, you could outplay larger groups. If you nerf damage too much, you end up with larger groups being able to hold W with little thought and win a fight solely because they're larger.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    Engi and not in need of purity of purpose to stay relevant?
    That trait is almost entirely the reason why scrappers have a place in any game mode at all.

    Scrappers are not performing well in PvP as far as I know and in PvE you see them literally never (except for the very niche case of giving perma superspeed to the tank in Forging Steel).

    WvW is the only place scrapper is really relevant and that is because of it's strong condition to boon conversion. Take that away and scrappers will most likely go extinct in that game mode, too.

    Druids have a place in the game as the best meta healers in PvE end game, every group that knows what they are doing will take a druid in their squad for raids or strikes.
    Let scrappers have their own niche in the game, please.

  • Tanbin.2436Tanbin.2436 Member ✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @iKagura.1903 said:
    do people actually use druid in wvw?

    Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

    What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

    Well, what if you can't....

    Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

    CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

    I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

    Solo roaming, small squad , so probably... 1-2% of the wvw population now since they killed off roaming years ago? They don't balance around solo roaming, small squad - to be honest I'm not sure even what they balance around anymore at this point.

    You condi cleanse immob - you don't just dodge. This is the ironic answer to your meme question.

    If you're in solo and small scale that's consistent to cleanse because there's not a massive amount of cover happening but in large zergs I can see your point because there's a lot of cover condis from a bunch of other classes so immob might not get cleansed consistently , but on the flipside you have a massive amount of more condi clears as well.

    I just really don't think with all the guardians and necro theres a lot of immob since both convert condi / transfer condi / cleanse consistently not to mention the stab share (ancient seeds triggered from being cc'd and it's not unblockable so aegis also counters it). Ancient seeds has many counters, not just after you get immob'd but before with stability prior to cc and aegis - again this is more controllable in small scale/solo roaming.

    I mean I think it's a pointless conversation to have anyway since ranger is clearly not wvw zerg meta at ALL and hasn't been for a long time if ever in the history of zerg meta/large scale. There's not a meta option for ranger literally at all since they nerfed druid support into the ground. It was always a better roamer.

    It's nothing in PvP and in PvE it does it's job.

    I think to clarify my original post, if Ancient seeds isn't 20sec icd in WvW then it should be, that should make it useless and nobody will bother taking it and of course druid wouldn't get anything in return but be just a slightly worse roamer even though most just run soulbeast because it's a far better roamer just from talking with top rangers on wvw. This is how it is in PvP, 20sec icd and it's absolutely useless but again , this is small scale where ancient seeds is controlled much easier.

  • @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

    We have, since before Druid even existed.

  • ZipTaw.9841ZipTaw.9841 Member ✭✭

    For those of you new to Arenanet mechanics, it will just be disabled in PvP, anybody that calls for a complete removal have got problems. This is the only Developer who seperates PvP and PvE. Any other developer puts PvE in the back seat because of the PvP whiners, it also sounds like you don't play said Ranger, so a removal wouldn't bother you like it would to those who actually use it in PvE. You could ask that it be disabled in PvP, but not in a WvW environment.

  • @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @iKagura.1903 said:
    do people actually use druid in wvw?

    Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

    What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

    Well, what if you can't....

    Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

    CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

    I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

    Not moving for two seconds shouldn't be a death sentence. Nerf damage.

    The more you nerf damage, the stronger you make group numbers. Before, and still now to a lesser extent, you could outplay larger groups. If you nerf damage too much, you end up with larger groups being able to hold W with little thought and win a fight solely because they're larger.

    That makes no sense. If you are up against greater numbers, the greater chance you have of surviving if they cannot kill you if you make a single mistake or get caught by an immob. As it is now, you can just be deleted from the game instantly if you catch a halfway decent bomb. Sometimes I don't even get a downstate because they just dropped literally 200,000 DPS on me.

    You still have your ability to outplay with lower damage, you just need to focus your attacks better, not just splash AoE over as great an area as possible and rely on their blob size to run over it all. Having lower damage requires you to outplay them.

    What you're saying is like "Dragon Banners are good for the game because a small group can use one or two against a zerg to defend". But what about when the attacking zerg brings 4 with them? It doesn't matter how well you outplay because with 4 banners, 15 Scourges, 15 Burn guards and lots of support, they are going to make the floor lava.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @iKagura.1903 said:
    do people actually use druid in wvw?

    Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

    What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

    Well, what if you can't....

    Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

    CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

    I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

    Ive been on may servers in WvW and do PvP and out of 100 encounters, maybe 4 are druid and 3.9/4 times its a condi druid (saw my 1st DPS druid in WvW the other day. Camped staff the whole fight. Didnt proc ancient seed and did good. Nearly crapped myself when I saw another DPS druid aside myself). It takes more skill to play DPS druid successively in WvW than condi, that I will admit. If you see Druids in large squads, id like to see it as its pretty rare to see druids in general, even rarer to see ones that are any good.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alexander.7694 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    It's difficult to find a more unfun trait to play against than that one.

    Stopped reading right there. Thief perma-stealth is not simply more unfun, it's totally broken, whenever I meet one I just don't bother anymore because they will just stealth and run anytime they want, that's how bad it is. They can even do finisher from stealth without chance to interrupt, its ridiculously OP.

    When that's fixed, we can talk. Thanks for coming to our part of the forum

    Wolf f2 will interrupt.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    Engi and not in need of purity of purpose to stay relevant?
    That trait is almost entirely the reason why scrappers have a place in any game mode at all.

    Scrappers are not performing well in PvP as far as I know and in PvE you see them literally never (except for the very niche case of giving perma superspeed to the tank in Forging Steel).

    WvW is the only place scrapper is really relevant and that is because of it's strong condition to boon conversion. Take that away and scrappers will most likely go extinct in
    Druids have a place in the game as the best meta healers in PvE end game, every group that knows what they are doing will take a druid in their squad for raids or strikes.
    Let scrappers have their own niche in the game, please.

    First of all, that's is completely wrong. Scrappers would still be viable in blob fights because of the cleansing numberes, regardless if they convert those condis to boons, their access to group superspeed and their stealth gyro for stealthing. Their healing is also very strong. You won't necessarily want one in nearly every subparty, but you still want a fair amount of them.

    Second of all, I'm not advocating taking Purity of Purpose away from engies, I'm saying that by doing that and nothing else, the playing field would be a lot more equal than what it currently is. Just playing with the idea. It's not like it's going to happen anyways.

    Druid being good for ONE part of ONE game mode is not a good excuse for anything. Scrapper has performed better in PvP recently than what Druid has.

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @iKagura.1903 said:
    do people actually use druid in wvw?

    Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

    What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

    Well, what if you can't....

    Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

    CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

    I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

    Not moving for two seconds shouldn't be a death sentence. Nerf damage.

    The more you nerf damage, the stronger you make group numbers. Before, and still now to a lesser extent, you could outplay larger groups. If you nerf damage too much, you end up with larger groups being able to hold W with little thought and win a fight solely because they're larger.

    That makes no sense. If you are up against greater numbers, the greater chance you have of surviving if they cannot kill you if you make a single mistake or get caught by an immob. As it is now, you can just be deleted from the game instantly if you catch a halfway decent bomb. Sometimes I don't even get a downstate because they just dropped literally 200,000 DPS on me.

    You still have your ability to outplay with lower damage, you just need to focus your attacks better, not just splash AoE over as great an area as possible and rely on their blob size to run over it all. Having lower damage requires you to outplay them.

    What you're saying is like "Dragon Banners are good for the game because a small group can use one or two against a zerg to defend". But what about when the attacking zerg brings 4 with them? It doesn't matter how well you outplay because with 4 banners, 15 Scourges, 15 Burn guards and lots of support, they are going to make the floor lava.

    Makes no sense?

    The point is that the MORE YOU TURN THE DIAL DOWN ON THE DAMAGE, THE GREATER ADVANTAGE YOU GIVE LARGER NUMBERS. That's a fact.

    Your survival is tied to your positioning and your team supports. And your callouts.

    You have to be mobile all the time, fish out for bombs, kite bubbles, counter bomb. You're making that whole ordeal even more tedious if your dial down the damage even further. The smaller groups have to endure longer without making mistakes, while the larger group can afford making mistakes. They don't care about losing a couple of guys, but for a smaller group that might be detrimental.

    You think lower damage is gonna make you survive better? To an extent, but even more so it's gonna make it easier for larger groups to peel of the small group's damage.

    And no, I'm not saying dragon banners are good for the game. They shouldn't exist at all. Not because they do damage, but because of the WAY they do damage.
    I'm saying you have a fundamental lack of understanding of the game mode and the current meta compared to the last one if you think mass lowering damage across the board is gonna make it easier for smaller organized groups to take out larger zergs. You're gonna make it a slugfest.

    The fact that I even have to argue about this just reminds me that I'm wasting my time. I don't want to sound like "that guy", but I play in an organized wvw guild in the higher wvw tiers on EU and the consensus from all the top commanders and guilds are that the current meta favor larger numbers compared to the meta before the huge damage nerfs. "Splashing your aoes's randomly around" is something I'd bet you're struggling with a bit more than what I am. Get real.

  • @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @iKagura.1903 said:
    do people actually use druid in wvw?

    Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

    What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

    Well, what if you can't....

    Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

    CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

    I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

    Not moving for two seconds shouldn't be a death sentence. Nerf damage.

    The more you nerf damage, the stronger you make group numbers. Before, and still now to a lesser extent, you could outplay larger groups. If you nerf damage too much, you end up with larger groups being able to hold W with little thought and win a fight solely because they're larger.

    That makes no sense. If you are up against greater numbers, the greater chance you have of surviving if they cannot kill you if you make a single mistake or get caught by an immob. As it is now, you can just be deleted from the game instantly if you catch a halfway decent bomb. Sometimes I don't even get a downstate because they just dropped literally 200,000 DPS on me.

    You still have your ability to outplay with lower damage, you just need to focus your attacks better, not just splash AoE over as great an area as possible and rely on their blob size to run over it all. Having lower damage requires you to outplay them.

    What you're saying is like "Dragon Banners are good for the game because a small group can use one or two against a zerg to defend". But what about when the attacking zerg brings 4 with them? It doesn't matter how well you outplay because with 4 banners, 15 Scourges, 15 Burn guards and lots of support, they are going to make the floor lava.

    Makes no sense?

    The point is that the MORE YOU TURN THE DIAL DOWN ON THE DAMAGE, THE GREATER ADVANTAGE YOU GIVE LARGER NUMBERS. That's a fact.

    Your survival is tied to your positioning and your team supports. And your callouts.

    You have to be mobile all the time, fish out for bombs, kite bubbles, counter bomb. You're making that whole ordeal even more tedious if your dial down the damage even further. The smaller groups have to endure longer without making mistakes, while the larger group can afford making mistakes. They don't care about losing a couple of guys, but for a smaller group that might be detrimental.

    You think lower damage is gonna make you survive better? To an extent, but even more so it's gonna make it easier for larger groups to peel of the small group's damage.

    And no, I'm not saying dragon banners are good for the game. They shouldn't exist at all. Not because they do damage, but because of the WAY they do damage.
    I'm saying you have a fundamental lack of understanding of the game mode and the current meta compared to the last one if you think mass lowering damage across the board is gonna make it easier for smaller organized groups to take out larger zergs. You're gonna make it a slugfest.

    The fact that I even have to argue about this just reminds me that I'm wasting my time. I don't want to sound like "that guy", but I play in an organized wvw guild in the higher wvw tiers on EU and the consensus from all the top commanders and guilds are that the current meta favor larger numbers compared to the meta before the huge damage nerfs. "Splashing your aoes's randomly around" is something I'd bet you're struggling with a bit more than what I am. Get real.

    That cannot be true, because the opposite is also not true. If you turn the damage all the way up, until 5 AAs will kill someone, it still favors higher numbers because of attrition and the amount of force they can bring to bear on any particular area.

    You're right about one thing though, you are wasting your time.

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:
    You're right about one thing though, you are wasting your time.

    Don't even try it. You're humerous enough with your "logical conclusions".

    Let me dumb this down for you. Higher damage gives the smaller group a better opportunity to punish larger groups harder, yet still survive when played well. Lower damage on the other hand, makes it easier for said large group to sustain the smaller group's bomb. The smaller group shouldn't try and sustain any of it to begin with, even when it becomes eaiser with overall less damage. If someone in the smaller group has bad positioning, that person should be punished by the larger group if focused properly. Not because of damage levels, but because of the share amount of people targeting him/her.

    Congrats on figuring out that damage dialed way up equals more concentrated damage on the spot when you drop a bomb. First of all; there is a little bit more to WvW than that, and second of all; I'm not advocating more damage, I am arguing your suggestion to lower it even further.

  • @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:
    You're right about one thing though, you are wasting your time.

    Don't even try it. You're humerous enough with your "logical conclusions".

    Let me dumb this down for you. Higher damage gives the smaller group a better opportunity to punish larger groups harder, yet still survive when played well. Lower damage on the other hand, makes it easier for said large group to sustain the smaller group's bomb. The smaller group shouldn't try and sustain any of it to begin with, even when it becomes eaiser with overall less damage. If someone in the smaller group has bad positioning, that person should be punished by the larger group if focused properly. Not because of damage levels, but because of the share amount of people targeting him/her.

    Congrats on figuring out that damage dialed way up equals more concentrated damage on the spot when you drop a bomb. First of all; there is a little bit more to WvW than that, and second of all; I'm not advocating more damage, I am arguing your suggestion to lower it even further.

    Still, the opposite must also be true for your assertion to be true and, well, it isn't.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They should remove the killable roots component and just drop a immob pulsing ground.
    At least with a pulsing ground AoE, it is possible to dodge out of it just before the first pulse, and avoid subsequent pulses.

    Between having to target the Druid, their pet and an additional Root target immobing the player, it's just too much and works every way in the favour of the Druid.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:
    They should remove the killable roots component and just drop a immob pulsing ground.
    At least with a pulsing ground AoE, it is possible to dodge out of it just before the first pulse, and avoid subsequent pulses.

    Between having to target the Druid, their pet and an additional Root target immobing the player, it's just too much and works every way in the favour of the Druid.

    While this is true and I do agree, how is it any different to a mesmer and its clones?

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    While this is true and I do agree, how is it any different to a mesmer and its clones?

    Mesmer has their own set of problems still, but this problem with Druid is another thing.

    Between Jarcanda's Embrace, Ancient Seeds, Vine Surge and Entangle, a target can be perma rooted for several minutes at a time if they have no access to any form of Immob removal or consistent Condi cleanse.
    (Not to mention all these skills have a pretty low cooldown and can be chained, and the worst of all, at least 3 of them PULSE THE IMMOB)

    This is on another level compared to CI Mesmer of the past because CI Mesmer actually needed to land the interrupt portion of the daze, plus their interrupts don't last nearly as long as Druid/Ranger's

    My stance : Pulsing Immobs of any kind should be removed from the competitive scene. It's the most obnoxious thing ever.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭

    Nah, stealth is way more obnoxious than pulsing immobilise.

  • @anduriell.6280 said:
    It's difficult to find a more unfun trait to play against than that one. A passive trait which triggers from any random daze and lock you down for 5 seconds.
    After the nerf to power damage the kitten roots are tanky as hell. And meanwhile you soaking condi damage.

    That trait has to go, a passive 10s immob every 10s in WVW is actually a perma immobilization. It is a extremely bad design and has no place in any passive trait. It's even worse than CI mirage.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ancient_Seeds

    Players are complaining about entangle and other ranger skills, those aren't the issues. The issue is this trait. Even in sPvP can be problematic when you can be immob up to 7s every 20s. Passively. Add any skill with immob.

    Delete Ancient seeds.

    I smell a thief! who got killed and now is whining!

  • @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    While this is true and I do agree, how is it any different to a mesmer and its clones?

    Mesmer has their own set of problems still, but this problem with Druid is another thing.

    Between Jarcanda's Embrace, Ancient Seeds, Vine Surge and Entangle, a target can be perma rooted for several minutes at a time if they have no access to any form of Immob removal or consistent Condi cleanse.
    (Not to mention all these skills have a pretty low cooldown and can be chained, and the worst of all, at least 3 of them PULSE THE IMMOB)

    This is on another level compared to CI Mesmer of the past because CI Mesmer actually needed to land the interrupt portion of the daze, plus their interrupts don't last nearly as long as Druid/Ranger's

    My stance : Pulsing Immobs of any kind should be removed from the competitive scene. It's the most obnoxious thing ever.

    Then get them! Adapt and overcome!

  • @Yasai.3549 said:
    "...a target can be perma rooted for several minutes at a time..."

    Come on mate, seriously there is no need to be totally and utterly blowing it out of all proportion like this.

    Immob is countered with a condi cleanse, among other things. If your build doesn't have on demand condi cleanse, its trash.

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    My stance : Pulsing Immobs of any kind should be removed from the competitive scene. It's the most obnoxious thing ever.

    I'd posit that stealth where you cannot even see your attacker is by far more obnoxious than being forced to adapt your build to have condition cleanses. Seriously, how are you even playing the same game with no condi cleanses? You're basically hard countered by almost any condition. It's like going up against a power Rev, refusing to use dodge, armor or Protection and then coming on the forums to QQ about getting rekt and demanding the class be nerfed.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    "...a target can be perma rooted for several minutes at a time..."

    Immob is countered with a condi cleanse, among other things. If your build doesn't have on demand condi cleanse, its trash.

    I'd posit that stealth where you cannot even see your attacker is by far more obnoxious than being forced to adapt your build to have condition cleanses. Seriously, how are you even playing the same game with no condi cleanses? You're basically hard countered by almost any condition. It's like going up against a power Rev, refusing to use dodge, armor or Protection and then coming on the forums to QQ about getting rekt and demanding the class be nerfed.

    Unless yu are playing Warrior, Rev or Weaver with specific traits, yur never gonna have enough condi cleanses to counter back to back pulsing immobs.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    "...a target can be perma rooted for several minutes at a time..."

    Immob is countered with a condi cleanse, among other things. If your build doesn't have on demand condi cleanse, its trash.

    I'd posit that stealth where you cannot even see your attacker is by far more obnoxious than being forced to adapt your build to have condition cleanses. Seriously, how are you even playing the same game with no condi cleanses? You're basically hard countered by almost any condition. It's like going up against a power Rev, refusing to use dodge, armor or Protection and then coming on the forums to QQ about getting rekt and demanding the class be nerfed.

    Unless yu are playing Warrior, Rev or Weaver with specific traits, yur never gonna have enough condi cleanses to counter back to back pulsing immobs.

    You only need to cleanse it once, then you can literally just walk out of the roots before they pulse again.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2020

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    You only need to cleanse it once, then you can literally just walk out of the roots before they pulse again.

    Not like every single Druid build doesn't use stuff like SB Concussion Shot/Spike Trap/Smokescale stun to CC people and force them to take the pulses.

    Also, unless each and every of yur cleanses cleanse more than 2 conditions, yur never gonna remove Immob as priority because Cleanses prioritize recent stacking conditions over duration conditions for clear, so all they have to do is ensure yu get tagged by repeated Bleed, Poison, or other misc. condis to keep that Immob on.

    Hell, these pulses also apply bleed by default.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    You only need to cleanse it once, then you can literally just walk out of the roots before they pulse again.

    Not like every single Druid build doesn't use stuff like SB Concussion Shot/Spike Trap/Smokescale stun to CC people and force them to take the pulses.

    Also, unless each and every of yur cleanses cleanse more than 2 conditions, yur never gonna remove Immob as priority because Cleanses prioritize recent stacking conditions over duration conditions for clear, so all they have to do is ensure yu get tagged by repeated Bleed, Poison, or other misc. condis to keep that Immob on.

    Hell, these pulses also apply bleed by default.

    Yes, that's right. It's so easy to escape that the Druid needs to coordinate 4 skills to make it work.

    Mate, if it didn't pulse it would be buried by all the other condi spam and you'd have no hope of clearing it. How do you not get that? By it pulsing it always remains at the top of the list and you can clear it as soon as it pulses with 2 clears and then walk away. Say the Druid is using the rune of the Krait, if it didn't pulse you'd need to clear the Poison, Bleed and Torment before the Immob since it is applied first. Heaven forbid you go 1v2 against a Druid and anything else because that Immob is going to be covered 100% of the time and you will need 4+ clears to get down to it.

    The pulsing nature and short duration is of benefit to the person being targeted.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2020

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    Mate, if it didn't pulse it would be buried by all the other condi spam and you'd have no hope of clearing it. How do you not get that? By it pulsing it always remains at the top of the list and you can clear it as soon as it pulses with 2 clears and then walk away. Say the Druid is using the rune of the Krait, if it didn't pulse you'd need to clear the Poison, Bleed and Torment before the Immob since it is applied first. Heaven forbid you go 1v2 against a Druid and anything else because that Immob is going to be covered 100% of the time and you will need 4+ clears to get down to it.

    Pretty kitten sure duration stacking condis do not get pushed up on top.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:
    Yes, that's right. It's so easy to escape that the Druid needs to coordinate 4 skills to make it work.

    Druid does not need to coordinate anything, the pet will autocast knockdown every 15s, the druid only needs to auto attack with the shortbow and you will end up with at least 3 different conditions on you. Add on the top any random CC from any other enemy and the skills the druid has access to which translates in perma immob.

    Anybody defending this troll trait is probably abusing it. As i said this passive trait with no interaction and has the ability to immobilize permanently in a 10 seconds cooldown has to be deleted from the game.

    As somebody pointed out is in the same league as CI mesmer, and it's extremely annoying and unbalanced to play against. Add that to the excessive access to stealth and mobility.

    Delete Ancient seeds as soon as possible.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

    Mate, if it didn't pulse it would be buried by all the other condi spam and you'd have no hope of clearing it. How do you not get that? By it pulsing it always remains at the top of the list and you can clear it as soon as it pulses with 2 clears and then walk away. Say the Druid is using the rune of the Krait, if it didn't pulse you'd need to clear the Poison, Bleed and Torment before the Immob since it is applied first. Heaven forbid you go 1v2 against a Druid and anything else because that Immob is going to be covered 100% of the time and you will need 4+ clears to get down to it.

    Pretty kitten sure duration stacking condis do not get pushed up on top.

    Watch this. Go fullscreen and set the playback speed to 0.25x

    You'll notice that the immob is applied first, then the Bleed from the root at the same time as the Bleeding, Poison and Torment from the Krait Runes. Using two condi clears removes the bleed and immobile, leaving the Poison and Torment. If the immobile didn't pulse, he'd have just removed the Poison and Torment, leaving the Bleeding and Immob.

    So if you get condi bombed, you just need to be patient for 1s for the root to pulse, then use your clear and move away from the root. The pulsing immobile will get covered by other condis, but then it will pulse and you can remove it and walk away.

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:
    Yes, that's right. It's so easy to escape that the Druid needs to coordinate 4 skills to make it work.

    Druid does not need to coordinate anything, the pet will autocast knockdown every 15s, the druid only needs to auto attack with the shortbow and you will end up with at least 3 different conditions on you. Add on the top any random CC from any other enemy and the skills the druid has access to which translates in perma immob.

    Anybody defending this troll trait is probably abusing it. As i said this passive trait with no interaction and has the ability to immobilize permanently in a 10 seconds cooldown has to be deleted from the game.

    As somebody pointed out is in the same league as CI mesmer, and it's extremely annoying and unbalanced to play against. Add that to the excessive access to stealth and mobility.

    Delete Ancient seeds as soon as possible.

    What pet has a KD on a 15s CD? And seriously, if people are getting hit by pet CC, they just need to quit ignoring pets.

    I don't use AS because it's next to useless, it rarely has an effect for more than 3s on anyone remotely paying attention because of how easily the roots are killed, how using a condi clear immediately after the pulse negates them completely, or how you can use a teleport or shadowstep out of them. It's a waste of a trait.

    If you want to talk about troll builds, how about a perma stealth condi thief with as many sources of Immob as a Druid and also they are not pulsing with long durations, so the thief can cover the immob meaning you can NEVER remove it.

  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:.
    What pet has a KD on a 15s CD? And seriously, if people are getting hit by pet CC, they just need to quit ignoring pets.

    I don't use AS because it's next to useless, it rarely has an effect for more than 3s on anyone remotely paying attention because of how easily the roots are killed, how using a condi clear immediately after the pulse negates them completely, or how you can use a teleport or shadowstep out of them. It's a waste of a trait.

    If you want to talk about troll builds, how about a perma stealth condi thief with as many sources of Immob as a Druid and also they are not pulsing with long durations, so the thief can cover the immob meaning you can NEVER remove it.

    That’s pretty much why I dislike entangle haha

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I will be quick here we are both veterans ranger mains:

    • Smockescale knockdown for 2s every 16s with BM traitline, i'm sure the gazelle can cast more often between the charge and the headbut. It has no clear animation and it looks almost like an autoattack. Very difficult to dodge it doesn't have the canines clear animations.
    • After the nerf to power damage the roots are too tanky, now you need to spend at least 2 seconds attacking that kitten or waste a burst just to get free from those.

    Entangle, moody terrain and SoW in my opinion those are fine. Active skills with cast time and clear animations. No excuse to ask for nerfs on those.

    Ancient seeds being a passive trait which triggers every 10s for a 10s immobilise has to be deleted from the game. The trait is super unfun to play agains and brings a lot of issues if the druid uses a couple of brain cells.
    Any immob trait or skill has to be very careful balanced and those roots in a 10s passive trait it is not. Even in spvp with 20s ICD could become problematic.

    That trait needs to be deleted from game, there is no reason to have something like that in a support focus spec.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    If I’m understanding the skill right, it triggers on any stun, daze, knock down and launches regardless of the source, all the Druid has to do is hit them? If that is the case, wouldn’t it be better to just change the skill to only trigger on stuns, dazes, knock downs and launches that the Druid inflicts, which would mean it would trigger on lb4, gs 5/4, spike trap, shortbow 5, oh axe 4, staff swap if traited, glyph of equality and tides. Edit: and CA skill 3.

    Not to mention every pet that has a launch, stun, knockdown or daze.. which is a good few of them.
    Plus there is always combo fields, leaps into electric fields cause daze.
    Lightning Wyverns can make great use of this trait now that I think about it.

    Really it only highlights a problem that some have complained about for years.
    There not being an effective immunity phase after breaking out of a hard CC or cleansing conditions like Immob.
    It is far! far! far!!! to easy to get stunlocked to death in this game due to the lack of counterplay to CC.

  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    If I’m understanding the skill right, it triggers on any stun, daze, knock down and launches regardless of the source, all the Druid has to do is hit them? If that is the case, wouldn’t it be better to just change the skill to only trigger on stuns, dazes, knock downs and launches that the Druid inflicts, which would mean it would trigger on lb4, gs 5/4, spike trap, shortbow 5, oh axe 4, staff swap if traited, glyph of equality and tides. Edit: and CA skill 3.

    Not to mention every pet that has a launch, stun, knockdown or daze.. which is a good few of them.
    Plus there is always combo fields, leaps into electric fields cause daze.
    Lightning Wyverns can make great use of this trait now that I think about it.

    Really it only highlights a problem that some have complained about for years.
    There not being an effective immunity phase after breaking out of a hard CC or cleansing conditions like Immob.
    It is far! far! far!!! to easy to get stunlocked to death in this game due to the lack of counterplay to CC.

    Yeah, some pets do have cc skills, but if AS was changed to trigger only on cc the Druid inflicts, then you take pet cc out of the problem, along with all the cc inflicted by everyone and everything.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    If I’m understanding the skill right, it triggers on any stun, daze, knock down and launches regardless of the source, all the Druid has to do is hit them? If that is the case, wouldn’t it be better to just change the skill to only trigger on stuns, dazes, knock downs and launches that the Druid inflicts, which would mean it would trigger on lb4, gs 5/4, spike trap, shortbow 5, oh axe 4, staff swap if traited, glyph of equality and tides. Edit: and CA skill 3.

    Not to mention every pet that has a launch, stun, knockdown or daze.. which is a good few of them.
    Plus there is always combo fields, leaps into electric fields cause daze.
    Lightning Wyverns can make great use of this trait now that I think about it.

    Really it only highlights a problem that some have complained about for years.
    There not being an effective immunity phase after breaking out of a hard CC or cleansing conditions like Immob.
    It is far! far! far!!! to easy to get stunlocked to death in this game due to the lack of counterplay to CC.

    Yeah, some pets do have cc skills, but if AS was changed to trigger only on cc the Druid inflicts, then you take pet cc out of the problem, along with all the cc inflicted by everyone and everything.

    I don't think they could justify cutting the pets CC out as well, other players CC sure.
    But pets are a big part of the Ranger class so it would make sense that AS also counts the pets CC too.

  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    If I’m understanding the skill right, it triggers on any stun, daze, knock down and launches regardless of the source, all the Druid has to do is hit them? If that is the case, wouldn’t it be better to just change the skill to only trigger on stuns, dazes, knock downs and launches that the Druid inflicts, which would mean it would trigger on lb4, gs 5/4, spike trap, shortbow 5, oh axe 4, staff swap if traited, glyph of equality and tides. Edit: and CA skill 3.

    Not to mention every pet that has a launch, stun, knockdown or daze.. which is a good few of them.
    Plus there is always combo fields, leaps into electric fields cause daze.
    Lightning Wyverns can make great use of this trait now that I think about it.

    Really it only highlights a problem that some have complained about for years.
    There not being an effective immunity phase after breaking out of a hard CC or cleansing conditions like Immob.
    It is far! far! far!!! to easy to get stunlocked to death in this game due to the lack of counterplay to CC.

    Yeah, some pets do have cc skills, but if AS was changed to trigger only on cc the Druid inflicts, then you take pet cc out of the problem, along with all the cc inflicted by everyone and everything.

    I don't think they could justify cutting the pets CC out as well, other players CC sure.
    But pets are a big part of the Ranger class so it would make sense that AS also counts the pets CC too.

    Either way, that’s how AS should function.

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:
    Yes, that's right. It's so easy to escape that the Druid needs to coordinate 4 skills to make it work.

    Druid does not need to coordinate anything, the pet will autocast knockdown every 15s, the druid only needs to auto attack with the shortbow and you will end up with at least 3 different conditions on you. Add on the top any random CC from any other enemy and the skills the druid has access to which translates in perma immob.

    Anybody defending this troll trait is probably abusing it. As i said this passive trait with no interaction and has the ability to immobilize permanently in a 10 seconds cooldown has to be deleted from the game.

    As somebody pointed out is in the same league as CI mesmer, and it's extremely annoying and unbalanced to play against. Add that to the excessive access to stealth and mobility.

    Delete Ancient seeds as soon as possible.

    Who uses ranger in wvw its probly most useless thing there as is seriusly easy to predict you do know you can destroy roots rather easly, you want druid dead in wvw but ranger is already barly good in wvw. Like i could say remove perma stealth deadeyes or scourges shades and boon rip traits becuse they are powerfull or for example eles fire staff 5 but issue is mostly the other traits are so bad that this one is ok but it does have a prediction if you see a druid you know it uses druid for this alone

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Can Druid be made a real elite spec instead of a Deadeye tier meme where it has no purpose?

  • If your a deadeye or thief, you already have to many evasion skills. Use them. Stop trying to nerf my class please.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KeyOrion.9506 said:
    If your a deadeye or thief, you already have to many evasion skills. Use them. Stop trying to nerf my class please.

    They can't, immob. that's the point

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My main complaint with Ancient Seeds is when a ranger hits you with the knockback arrow into the water, and the game puts you rooted on the surface of the water, and then you do not have access to anything on your skill bar to get out.

    That could be solved a number of ways, I know, it just feels good to complain about it.