Thief Rifle SPvP Issue — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home PVP

Thief Rifle SPvP Issue

So I have been playing a lot of Rifle DE lately in SPvP.
It's a build that I enjoy in PvE (Even tho DD is 10x easier) and I really want to practice it and play it in PvP.
I couldn't figure out why it was so bad since it technically poses all the needed traits to work, it has high range, stealth access, mobility built in, a non existent 5 skill (lol). But it has the basics of what it should need to work.
After about 120 games, I think the real reason it cant compare to other builds is:
A.) It really doesn't have a #5 skill in PvP. Kneeling is horrible in 99.9% of all situations. However, this can be overlooked as the next point is the real issue.
B.) It's #1 in all forms needs something more. Its auto attack rotation is pretty much the worst AA in thief's arsenal. It's damage and AUX effects are all worthless.
B. 2.0) Death's Judgement needs some kind of unblockable or penetration....or both. It is the primary source or burst for rifle, but it has also been made into one of the slowest moves in the games. And it is EASILY the most projected move in the game. Any player with minimal skill can easily dodge roll DJ.
1. However, you now add the ability to block/reflect DJ, and suddenly certain classes like Guardian, Elementalist, Rev, Engi and Warrior are basically immune to DJ as they have access to tons of blocks, as well as rolling it since everyone can see it coming.
2. Additionally, it does not have penetration, which makes any 1v1 potential for DJ to be effective not work, as any pets will just eat it. Thus, making it completely unavailable against Rangers, Mesmers, Necro's, and quite often in this meta, Thief's with their Elite.

We look at the above and....well...that's ALL of the classes that our main source of damage and burst in rifle is useless against in SPvP.

I really think DJ receiving Unbloackable, Penetration, or both, would make Rifle a much more viable spec in PvP. Even if it needs to be added into a talent tree. Heck, my opinion would be to rework Collateral Damage. It's a trait that is used in no build, in any area of the game. Change this to "Death's Judgement gains Unblockable and Penetration". It would take away from Thief's Damage Ability by not being able to take Malicious Intent, but provide more utility by rendering DJ actually viable to use.

As of right now, all I see, even in other threads right on the front page and on the Thief Professions page are people talking about how useless DE is in both PvP and PvE. Sure would be nice to try and fix that, even starting with just this quick change to test it out.

What do you guys think the issue with DE is?

<13

Comments

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The biggest Problem with Thief's rifle is that it's Thief's rifle.
    Thief damage is balanced with it's runaway potential (which includes the overly abundant amounts of teleporting and stealth) in mind.
    On top of that, the rifle has 1500 range.
    If you combine the philosophy of making ranged weapons generally weaker (seemingly all except for Ranger Longbow) and Thief damage generally being low to make up for their runaway potential, you get a seemingly useless weapon.

    But if you look at PvP around average rating (which should be somewhere around Gold 1 and Silver 2,3), where to majority of participants (players and others) end up, you see enough people dying to DJ.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    The biggest Problem with Thief's rifle is that it's Thief's rifle.
    Thief damage is balanced with it's runaway potential (which includes the overly abundant amounts of teleporting and stealth) in mind.

    Not with their runaway potential, but with shortbow 5s mobility letting you be anywhere on the map. But, well, its not like DE is good even with shortbow.

    On top of that, the rifle has 1500 range.

    It only has 1200. As he pointed out, you never kneel. Its incredibly terrible.

    If you combine the philosophy of making ranged weapons generally weaker (seemingly all except for Ranger Longbow) and Thief damage generally being low to make up for their runaway potential, you get a seemingly useless weapon.

    Eh, ranged weapons arent really generally weaker. Necros Axe was insane for a while, and you got the usual culprits in ranger and dragonhunter. Probably some versions of Ele and Mesmer too.

    But if you look at PvP around average rating (which should be somewhere around Gold 1 and Silver 2,3), where to majority of participants (players and others) end up, you see enough people dying to DJ.

    Eh, nowadays you dont even see that. At some point people realised "If I dodge when that obnoxious sound happens and the bright orange line appears, I dont take damage".

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Dj had an unblockable after the rework, which also made kneeling bad. I don’t think they want to undo all this. Just so you know though rifle 2 damage is pgood and is good in ranked as a high risk high reward spec. It’s actually somewhat good into revs Holos and necros. If you also want to play like s/d or s/p with shadow arts that’s workable compared to any other shadow arts sword build.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @megilandil.7506 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Dj had an unblockable after the rework, which also made kneeling bad. I don’t think they want to undo all this. Just so you know though rifle 2 damage is pgood and is good in ranked as a high risk high reward spec. It’s actually somewhat good into revs Holos and necros. If you also want to play like s/d or s/p with shadow arts that’s workable compared to any other shadow arts sword build.

    lol... "high risk" with the stealth on dodge atop of all other thief evasion skills.

    DE would be a high risk high reward thing if they need mandatory to kneel and kneel truly root them on spot, but while is a shot-dodge- reposition and reset in stealth- repeat is not a high risk thing

    It has 1 sec on stealth on dodge only with rifle if traited which becomes 2 secs if you take shadow arts. Out of all the thief builds rn deadeye is by far the highest risk. You think it’s low risk try playing in plat1 as a non thief main and you’ll understand why most don’t play deadeye for any reason other than carrying ranked.

  • aelska.4609aelska.4609 Member ✭✭✭

    Thief rifle is exactly how it's supposed to be. Stealthed sniper mechanic will always be toxic in competitive, this is GW2 not call of duty. Combat system is better balanced with action - reaction mechanism, give a class a range stealth burst and that goes away.
    What you are asking is to make a build that cannot be healthy to the game viable. Of course there is a way to balance out things, but it won't be fun to fight against. That's the same reason people dislike fighting against scourge, explosive entrance mortar engies, burn guards, etc. and are slowly leaving the game.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @Luclinraider.2317 said:
    So I have been playing a lot of Rifle DE lately in SPvP.
    It's a build that I enjoy in PvE (Even tho DD is 10x easier) and I really want to practice it and play it in PvP.
    I couldn't figure out why it was so bad since it technically poses all the needed traits to work, it has high range, stealth access, mobility built in, a non existent 5 skill (lol). But it has the basics of what it should need to work.
    After about 120 games, I think the real reason it cant compare to other builds is:
    A.) It really doesn't have a #5 skill in PvP. Kneeling is horrible in 99.9% of all situations. However, this can be overlooked as the next point is the real issue.
    B.) It's #1 in all forms needs something more. Its auto attack rotation is pretty much the worst AA in thief's arsenal. It's damage and AUX effects are all worthless.
    B. 2.0) Death's Judgement needs some kind of unblockable or penetration....or both. It is the primary source or burst for rifle, but it has also been made into one of the slowest moves in the games. And it is EASILY the most projected move in the game. Any player with minimal skill can easily dodge roll DJ.
    1. However, you now add the ability to block/reflect DJ, and suddenly certain classes like Guardian, Elementalist, Rev, Engi and Warrior are basically immune to DJ as they have access to tons of blocks, as well as rolling it since everyone can see it coming.
    2. Additionally, it does not have penetration, which makes any 1v1 potential for DJ to be effective not work, as any pets will just eat it. Thus, making it completely unavailable against Rangers, Mesmers, Necro's, and quite often in this meta, Thief's with their Elite.

    We look at the above and....well...that's ALL of the classes that our main source of damage and burst in rifle is useless against in SPvP.

    I really think DJ receiving Unbloackable, Penetration, or both, would make Rifle a much more viable spec in PvP. Even if it needs to be added into a talent tree. Heck, my opinion would be to rework Collateral Damage. It's a trait that is used in no build, in any area of the game. Change this to "Death's Judgement gains Unblockable and Penetration". It would take away from Thief's Damage Ability by not being able to take Malicious Intent, but provide more utility by rendering DJ actually viable to use.

    As of right now, all I see, even in other threads right on the front page and on the Thief Professions page are people talking about how useless DE is in both PvP and PvE. Sure would be nice to try and fix that, even starting with just this quick change to test it out.

    What do you guys think the issue with DE is?

    There is none. At least in the way you're implying, of course there are projectile based bugs.

    You mentioned that 1v1 ability for the spec is bad. It's because DE has insane damage potential. Berserkers amulet, scholar runes, separation sigil, assassin signet, BQoBK... it's not that hard to stack all your modifiers which result in a 2.5 second window where you can land enough damage to down anything short of a full shroud necromancer. The "skill" involved is knowing when to land the burst, and how to force windows where the enemy is vulnerable to it.
    DJ used to be unblockable, it was taken away during the nerfs gradually tuning all overperforming specs down. At the time it was unfair, now it definitely isn't. DE-s real tradeoff is getting better(and ranged) damage at the cost of reliance on stealth+projectiles, with lessened mobility. An unblockable DJ would bypass half of this tradeoff, and would make DE far too OP - especially on lower ratings.

    People saying DE is underpowered can't play it properly. It works for me just fine.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭

    stealth/teleport on a ranged nuke will never be a thing, because it's just toxic
    try warrior killshot, the real sniper with real risks. DE has basically 0 risk.

  • Aihao.5824Aihao.5824 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2020

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    You mentioned that 1v1 ability for the spec is bad. It's because DE has insane damage potential. Berserkers amulet, scholar runes, separation sigil, assassin signet, BQoBK... it's not that hard to stack all your modifiers which result in a 2.5 second window where you can land enough damage to down anything short of a full shroud necromancer. The "skill" involved is knowing when to land the burst, and how to force windows where the enemy is vulnerable to it.
    DJ used to be unblockable, it was taken away during the nerfs gradually tuning all overperforming specs down. At the time it was unfair, now it definitely isn't. DE-s real tradeoff is getting better(and ranged) damage at the cost of reliance on stealth+projectiles, with lessened mobility. An unblockable DJ would bypass half of this tradeoff, and would make DE far too OP - especially on lower ratings.

    People saying DE is underpowered can't play it properly. It works for me just fine.

    • de can do somthing in 1v1, but it depends on where, what cooldowns will u have, etc. U will never kill a mirage, ranger and some dp thief - all of these guys can be ur same skill lvl with u or a bit lower, that doesnt matter-. U can also be kited by weaver pretty long and be killed too.
    • de has no damage potential in pvp, cuz we talking about pvp. It has better sustain than dp, but burst damage lower than pd condi. To provide damage u need need hit with 2 skills (crit gives doublemalice) and 3 if u have m7 what is played more oftenly, cuz it gives much more sustain compared to bqobk(+ malicious intent that gives u 1 malice when u used mark). And this trait is completely useless, cuz u have to pick one in chamber to have more stealth access, i hope nooneneeded here to explain why stealth is so important to thieves. SO, this is all that i have said is to land 1 dj, that will hit for 10k (with full m7 and if u not dead yet to enemies that have no tooughness modifier or protection). all u can do during 2.5 secs using bqobk is to hit some 3rb but ofc u wont hit with it. Cuz in current state everyone do at least dodgeroll or pressing block after u land a mark, and u ll stay kneeled down with all ur burst stuff and w8 until block ends, or just miss with all skills and waste all of ur initiative. U wont kill anyone with these 2.5 secs or do some worthy impact. Other ur burst if u have assasin signet with stacked modifiers wont be able to land, cuz u have to play defensively and dat necro fore example (who is easiest target) will spam u fear/condies/chills or put shroud. And im not telling anything about magnetic auras, scourge barriers and fb's sphere that does reflect to u. Using bers+scholar = instakill for enemy thief, that will just fear u throught landing backstab + heartseeker, allmost instakill for enemy mirage, oneshot from enemy pew pew soulbeast, guaranteed kill for enemy rev. As u can see, at all variants ur combat will be long, and bqobk was taken to land fast burst earlier, before patch to land some heavy damage and then finish that guy. Now all what u can do is just waste ur initiative and land some random 2.3k bullet, or 3.5k dj cuz u wont have all 5/7 malice for good dj. De's main problem is slowness. He gains secondary resourse too ling to land some worthy strike at the moment u need, and also de has no unblokable strikes/interrupts to deal with some rangers, interrupt guardians hea;, it has only stealth and shadowstep as save skill, and some ok sustain, not good not bad, just ok. De is good for cutting noobs, on higher mmr u will be hardly punished for every time u left stealth.

    • And yes, de is useless, u just need one of: tempest, rev, hfb, or healscg (metasupps) and u wont be able to kill someone earlier than ur mates die. If de had potential someone would play it, but none of p2+ does, de just a meme and taken for fun, what is rare at g3+. U could carry a game with this build before feb patch, but not now. Sadly, but i love playing sniper, and take it sometimes when we lack of sustain in team, but it easily countered, espesially if enemies can rotate. U can play prorely and just got smashed by some mirage + dp thief that has far more mobility than u for +1.

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2020

    There's nothing high risk about being able spam stealth and teleport around while attacking / bursting at 1200+ range. Remove the stealth on dodge and rifle 2 immob spam then you can have your unblockable DJ back.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭✭

    DE is just an unhealthy spec since the very beginning. Starting at malicious backstab that could oneshot back in the days, ending with stealth at will, 1200+ range, knockdown and immobilize (oh, and removing revealed ofc). Barely any risk, out of all teef specs id say its the safest one (as long as you know what youre doing).

    I get what ANet wanted to do, and design was not bad, but the product weve got is just made for toxic gameplay. One of the reasons why in most games, characters with high stealth access and assassin gameplay are made for close meele range. High damage, good utility, but also paper if played badly.

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons
    25.02.2020 edit - Nevermind, now I spam only 29 skill-buttons

  • @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Luclinraider.2317 said:
    So I have been playing a lot of Rifle DE lately in SPvP.
    It's a build that I enjoy in PvE (Even tho DD is 10x easier) and I really want to practice it and play it in PvP.
    I couldn't figure out why it was so bad since it technically poses all the needed traits to work, it has high range, stealth access, mobility built in, a non existent 5 skill (lol). But it has the basics of what it should need to work.
    After about 120 games, I think the real reason it cant compare to other builds is:
    A.) It really doesn't have a #5 skill in PvP. Kneeling is horrible in 99.9% of all situations. However, this can be overlooked as the next point is the real issue.
    B.) It's #1 in all forms needs something more. Its auto attack rotation is pretty much the worst AA in thief's arsenal. It's damage and AUX effects are all worthless.
    B. 2.0) Death's Judgement needs some kind of unblockable or penetration....or both. It is the primary source or burst for rifle, but it has also been made into one of the slowest moves in the games. And it is EASILY the most projected move in the game. Any player with minimal skill can easily dodge roll DJ.
    1. However, you now add the ability to block/reflect DJ, and suddenly certain classes like Guardian, Elementalist, Rev, Engi and Warrior are basically immune to DJ as they have access to tons of blocks, as well as rolling it since everyone can see it coming.
    2. Additionally, it does not have penetration, which makes any 1v1 potential for DJ to be effective not work, as any pets will just eat it. Thus, making it completely unavailable against Rangers, Mesmers, Necro's, and quite often in this meta, Thief's with their Elite.

    We look at the above and....well...that's ALL of the classes that our main source of damage and burst in rifle is useless against in SPvP.

    I really think DJ receiving Unbloackable, Penetration, or both, would make Rifle a much more viable spec in PvP. Even if it needs to be added into a talent tree. Heck, my opinion would be to rework Collateral Damage. It's a trait that is used in no build, in any area of the game. Change this to "Death's Judgement gains Unblockable and Penetration". It would take away from Thief's Damage Ability by not being able to take Malicious Intent, but provide more utility by rendering DJ actually viable to use.

    As of right now, all I see, even in other threads right on the front page and on the Thief Professions page are people talking about how useless DE is in both PvP and PvE. Sure would be nice to try and fix that, even starting with just this quick change to test it out.

    What do you guys think the issue with DE is?

    There is none. At least in the way you're implying, of course there are projectile based bugs.

    You mentioned that 1v1 ability for the spec is bad. It's because DE has insane damage potential. Berserkers amulet, scholar runes, separation sigil, assassin signet, BQoBK... it's not that hard to stack all your modifiers which result in a 2.5 second window where you can land enough damage to down anything short of a full shroud necromancer. The "skill" involved is knowing when to land the burst, and how to force windows where the enemy is vulnerable to it.
    DJ used to be unblockable, it was taken away during the nerfs gradually tuning all overperforming specs down. At the time it was unfair, now it definitely isn't. DE-s real tradeoff is getting better(and ranged) damage at the cost of reliance on stealth+projectiles, with lessened mobility. An unblockable DJ would bypass half of this tradeoff, and would make DE far too OP - especially on lower ratings.

    People saying DE is underpowered can't play it properly. It works for me just fine.

    This is the best answer in this thread. DE is definately working fine at the moment for people who know when to play it and how to play it, and I'm talking of Plat games.

    DE has an insane kill potential in a game, it's up to you if you wish to loose your time 1v1ing someone on a node they have taken already. If you wish to play it against good thieves that will farm you the whole game, it's also your mistake.

    I don't even understand how you can argue for a spec that can actually oneshot people to have unblockable projectiles. Do you even realize what that'd mean in a teamfight ?

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2020

    Let me explain a few things here:

    1. Rifle used to have unblockable on DJ. It was nerfed because everyone complained about it.
    2. Deadeye was never good in high tiered pvp even before the several nerfs, because its entire design prevents it from ever being able to stand on a node. It's great in WvW, terrible in SPvP, always has been. The reasons why it's bad have nothing to do with the mechanical components you were trying to examine. It simply cannot stand on a node. If a DE tries to stand on a node, it's like he's putting a big red bulls eye on his head and saying "Hey, I'm right here, come teleport-burst or sic em-burst me." and that's exactly what will happen if he stands there on the node. And even if an excellent DE is attempting to fight to defend a node, he has to stealth so often, that he will immediately lose the node anyway, and be forced to allow an opponent to cap it. DE is inherently bad in conquest because it essentially leaves its team 4v5 when it comes to the node play. Even if it was OP in terms of statistical value in combat, it would still suck in conquest play for that reason.
    3. Deadeye is always going to suck in conquest. If you want you play that specialization, chew on that, swallow it, digest it, and accept it now. Deadeye, just like Ranger, has 1500 ranged projectile play. Guild Wars 2 players absolutely hate ranged play. It doesn't matter how underpowered longbows or thief rifle becomes, you will still always see threads written where people are complaining about a thief rifle, because it is able to hit them from 1500 range from a ledge, and their warrior can't brawl with it. The majority of the GW2 pvp player base has a misunderstanding of what is actually overpowered & overperforming and what is annoying them. Regardless, Arenanet listens to these kinds of complaint threads and wallah, this is why no one plays Deadeye competitively anymore. And things will stay that way, I'll guarantee you that.
  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    stealth/teleport on a ranged nuke will never be a thing, because it's just toxic
    try warrior killshot, the real sniper with real risks. DE has basically 0 risk.

    Ironically of the 2, DE has far more risk. Killshot warrior is still Warrior, a class with blocks evades and decent healing. If a thief, a rev or any other mobile class jumps on you, or another ranged class attacks you, you can manage. If the same happens to a DE? He is dead unless he burns shadowstep.

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Let me explain a few things here:

    1. Rifle used to have unblockable on DJ. It was nerfed because everyone complained about it.
    2. Deadeye was never good in high tiered pvp even before the several nerfs, because its entire design prevents it from ever being able to stand on a node. It's great in WvW, terrible in SPvP, always has been. The reasons why it's bad have nothing to do with the mechanical components you were trying to examine. It simply cannot stand on a node. If a DE tries to stand on a node, it's like he's putting a big red bulls eye on his head and saying "Hey, I'm right here, come teleport-burst or sic em-burst me." and that's exactly what will happen if he stands there on the node. And even if an excellent DE is attempting to fight to defend a node, he has to stealth so often, that he will immediately lose the node anyway, and be forced to allow an opponent to cap it. DE is inherently bad in conquest because it essentially leaves its team 4v5 when it comes to the node play. Even if it was OP in terms of statistical value in combat, it would still suck in conquest play for that reason.
    3. Deadeye is always going to suck in conquest. If you want you play that specialization, chew on that, swallow it, digest it, and accept it now. Deadeye, just like Ranger, has 1500 ranged projectile play. Guild Wars 2 players absolutely hate ranged play. It doesn't matter how underpowered longbows or thief rifle becomes, you will still always see threads written where people are complaining about a thief rifle, because it is able to hit them from 1500 range from a ledge, and their warrior can't brawl with it. The majority of the GW2 pvp player base has a misunderstanding of what is actually overpowered & overperforming and what is annoying them. Regardless, Arenanet listens to these kinds of complaint threads and wallah, this is why no one plays Deadeye competitively anymore. And things will stay that way, I'll guarantee you that.

    Exactly why deadeye is a niche play, but it's totally viable in a lot of ranked games.
    As deadeye, your only job is to kill people, that's why you're there. That's how you compensate for not being able to hold any nodes and not doing the classic thief job.

    Making projectiles unblockable is just allowing DE to overperform without any skills in ranked IMO.

  • megilandil.7506megilandil.7506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Let me explain a few things here:

    1. Rifle used to have unblockable on DJ. It was nerfed because everyone complained about it.
    2. Deadeye was never good in high tiered pvp even before the several nerfs, because its entire design prevents it from ever being able to stand on a node. It's great in WvW, terrible in SPvP, always has been. The reasons why it's bad have nothing to do with the mechanical components you were trying to examine. It simply cannot stand on a node. If a DE tries to stand on a node, it's like he's putting a big red bulls eye on his head and saying "Hey, I'm right here, come teleport-burst or sic em-burst me." and that's exactly what will happen if he stands there on the node. And even if an excellent DE is attempting to fight to defend a node, he has to stealth so often, that he will immediately lose the node anyway, and be forced to allow an opponent to cap it. DE is inherently bad in conquest because it essentially leaves its team 4v5 when it comes to the node play. Even if it was OP in terms of statistical value in combat, it would still suck in conquest play for that reason.
    3. Deadeye is always going to suck in conquest. If you want you play that specialization, chew on that, swallow it, digest it, and accept it now. Deadeye, just like Ranger, has 1500 ranged projectile play. Guild Wars 2 players absolutely hate ranged play. It doesn't matter how underpowered longbows or thief rifle becomes, you will still always see threads written where people are complaining about a thief rifle, because it is able to hit them from 1500 range from a ledge, and their warrior can't brawl with it. The majority of the GW2 pvp player base has a misunderstanding of what is actually overpowered & overperforming and what is annoying them. Regardless, Arenanet listens to these kinds of complaint threads and wallah, this is why no one plays Deadeye competitively anymore. And things will stay that way, I'll guarantee you that.

    a long ranged spec to be balanced have to be bad at close range and/or unable to continuos disengaging, you have your oportunoty while you keep enemy at range, but if enemy can tank/dodge your dmg and get to your close range you are almost dead period... but ranger have gs that is a good weapon set not a bad one that only serves to capitalize the possible health advantage you get from your long range atack and DE have spam stealth and reset. Thats the problem not just being annoying

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2020

    @megilandil.7506 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Let me explain a few things here:

    1. Rifle used to have unblockable on DJ. It was nerfed because everyone complained about it.
    2. Deadeye was never good in high tiered pvp even before the several nerfs, because its entire design prevents it from ever being able to stand on a node. It's great in WvW, terrible in SPvP, always has been. The reasons why it's bad have nothing to do with the mechanical components you were trying to examine. It simply cannot stand on a node. If a DE tries to stand on a node, it's like he's putting a big red bulls eye on his head and saying "Hey, I'm right here, come teleport-burst or sic em-burst me." and that's exactly what will happen if he stands there on the node. And even if an excellent DE is attempting to fight to defend a node, he has to stealth so often, that he will immediately lose the node anyway, and be forced to allow an opponent to cap it. DE is inherently bad in conquest because it essentially leaves its team 4v5 when it comes to the node play. Even if it was OP in terms of statistical value in combat, it would still suck in conquest play for that reason.
    3. Deadeye is always going to suck in conquest. If you want you play that specialization, chew on that, swallow it, digest it, and accept it now. Deadeye, just like Ranger, has 1500 ranged projectile play. Guild Wars 2 players absolutely hate ranged play. It doesn't matter how underpowered longbows or thief rifle becomes, you will still always see threads written where people are complaining about a thief rifle, because it is able to hit them from 1500 range from a ledge, and their warrior can't brawl with it. The majority of the GW2 pvp player base has a misunderstanding of what is actually overpowered & overperforming and what is annoying them. Regardless, Arenanet listens to these kinds of complaint threads and wallah, this is why no one plays Deadeye competitively anymore. And things will stay that way, I'll guarantee you that.

    a long ranged spec to be balanced have to be bad at close range and/or unable to continuos disengaging, you have your oportunoty while you keep enemy at range, but if enemy can tank/dodge your dmg and get to your close range you are almost dead period... but ranger have gs that is a good weapon set not a bad one that only serves to capitalize the possible health advantage you get from your long range atack and DE have spam stealth and reset. Thats the problem not just being annoying

    There is no problem. There are only people who get annoyed by 1500 range, regardless of how much the thing sucks that's shooting at them with 1500 range. Deadeyes haven't been seen in any competitive AT team in years, and you don't see them in the top 100 anymore either. There are big reasons why concerning all of the direct nerfing it has received, along with how everything in the game now has reveals and instant cast teleports. Deadeye is right down in the bottom 3 least effective conquest specs to choose from. It's right there with Berserker and Druid. End of story.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @megilandil.7506 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Let me explain a few things here:

    1. Rifle used to have unblockable on DJ. It was nerfed because everyone complained about it.
    2. Deadeye was never good in high tiered pvp even before the several nerfs, because its entire design prevents it from ever being able to stand on a node. It's great in WvW, terrible in SPvP, always has been. The reasons why it's bad have nothing to do with the mechanical components you were trying to examine. It simply cannot stand on a node. If a DE tries to stand on a node, it's like he's putting a big red bulls eye on his head and saying "Hey, I'm right here, come teleport-burst or sic em-burst me." and that's exactly what will happen if he stands there on the node. And even if an excellent DE is attempting to fight to defend a node, he has to stealth so often, that he will immediately lose the node anyway, and be forced to allow an opponent to cap it. DE is inherently bad in conquest because it essentially leaves its team 4v5 when it comes to the node play. Even if it was OP in terms of statistical value in combat, it would still suck in conquest play for that reason.
    3. Deadeye is always going to suck in conquest. If you want you play that specialization, chew on that, swallow it, digest it, and accept it now. Deadeye, just like Ranger, has 1500 ranged projectile play. Guild Wars 2 players absolutely hate ranged play. It doesn't matter how underpowered longbows or thief rifle becomes, you will still always see threads written where people are complaining about a thief rifle, because it is able to hit them from 1500 range from a ledge, and their warrior can't brawl with it. The majority of the GW2 pvp player base has a misunderstanding of what is actually overpowered & overperforming and what is annoying them. Regardless, Arenanet listens to these kinds of complaint threads and wallah, this is why no one plays Deadeye competitively anymore. And things will stay that way, I'll guarantee you that.

    a long ranged spec to be balanced have to be bad at close range and/or unable to continuos disengaging, you have your oportunoty while you keep enemy at range, but if enemy can tank/dodge your dmg and get to your close range you are almost dead period... but ranger have gs that is a good weapon set not a bad one that only serves to capitalize the possible health advantage you get from your long range atack and DE have spam stealth and reset. Thats the problem not just being annoying

    There is no problem. There are only people who get annoyed by 1500 range, regardless of how much the thing sucks that's shooting at them with 1500 range. Deadeyes haven't been seen in any competitive AT team in years, and you don't see them in the top 100 anymore either. There are big reasons why concerning all of the direct nerfing it has received, along with how everything in the game now has reveals and instant cast teleports. Deadeye is right down in the bottom 3 least effective conquest specs to choose from. It's right there with Berserker and Druid. End of story.

    The 1500/1200 range shooting has never been the issue...nobody ever complained about range shooting when it's easy to neutralize it, you don't see people ever complaining about staff ele for a reason. Now when you have traits like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Silent_Scope - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Binding_Shadow -
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Devourer_Venom

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    DE is potential cancer like the rest of the POF specks, too much RP and PVE DPS, not enough good non toxic mechanics for PVP. What is holding it back is the rest of the thief builds, biggest counter to thief is a thief or shiro revenant(thief with guardian/warrior abilities).
    DE is a teamfight/roamer speck and not being able to hold nodes by itself is ok, but having a thief in that position means that there is no decapper for your team and most probably the other team has the other types of thieves. So DE shares the position with Reaper which one ups it by being able to hold nodes for some time till help arrives or die miserably if it doesn't. Also DE needs something to draw attention so it can pew pew and kill people.
    It is off meta elite that needs off meta team comp that is build around it to work or the other team doesn't have the porty classes and they end up farmed cause they can't stop the DE at all.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    stealth/teleport on a ranged nuke will never be a thing, because it's just toxic
    try warrior killshot, the real sniper with real risks. DE has basically 0 risk.

    Ironically of the 2, DE has far more risk. Killshot warrior is still Warrior, a class with blocks evades and decent healing. If a thief, a rev or any other mobile class jumps on you, or another ranged class attacks you, you can manage. If the same happens to a DE? He is dead unless he burns shadowstep.

    now you are just pulling BS out of your kitten.
    i play DE exclusively in wvw for how risk free it is, DE easily be double the sustain a rifle warrior has.
    clearly you have no idea what you talking about either DE nor killshot warrior.
    when you are a squishy build, no amount of healing/evade will save you from being focused except mobility and stealth.

    heres a recommendation, before you ever make comparsion, try them.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Deadeye is a good team fighter and 1v1er and I don't see why you wouldn't be able to get top 250 with it.

  • Ysmir.4986Ysmir.4986 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Aihao.5824 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    You mentioned that 1v1 ability for the spec is bad. It's because DE has insane damage potential. Berserkers amulet, scholar runes, separation sigil, assassin signet, BQoBK... it's not that hard to stack all your modifiers which result in a 2.5 second window where you can land enough damage to down anything short of a full shroud necromancer. The "skill" involved is knowing when to land the burst, and how to force windows where the enemy is vulnerable to it.
    DJ used to be unblockable, it was taken away during the nerfs gradually tuning all overperforming specs down. At the time it was unfair, now it definitely isn't. DE-s real tradeoff is getting better(and ranged) damage at the cost of reliance on stealth+projectiles, with lessened mobility. An unblockable DJ would bypass half of this tradeoff, and would make DE far too OP - especially on lower ratings.

    People saying DE is underpowered can't play it properly. It works for me just fine.

    • de can do somthing in 1v1, but it depends on where, what cooldowns will u have, etc. U will never kill a mirage, ranger and some dp thief - all of these guys can be ur same skill lvl with u or a bit lower, that doesnt matter-. U can also be kited by weaver pretty long and be killed too.

    Doing something is hardly ever worth it unless you get a kill out of that "something" within seconds. Reliance on stealth means you cannot hold points, even contesting them is pretty hard over a longer period of time.

    • de has no damage potential in pvp, cuz we talking about pvp.

    It does, I even listed the main components and modifiers you can cram into a build currently, did you even read it?

    It has better sustain than dp, but burst damage lower than pd condi. To provide damage u need need hit with 2 skills (crit gives doublemalice) and 3 if u have m7 what is played more oftenly, cuz it gives much more sustain compared to bqobk(+ malicious intent that gives u 1 malice when u used mark). And this trait is completely useless, cuz u have to pick one in chamber to have more stealth access, i hope nooneneeded here to explain why stealth is so important to thieves. SO, this is all that i have said is to land 1 dj, that will hit for 10k (with full m7 and if u not dead yet to enemies that have no tooughness modifier or protection). all u can do during 2.5 secs using bqobk is to hit some 3rb but ofc u wont hit with it. Cuz in current state everyone do at least dodgeroll or pressing block after u land a mark, and u ll stay kneeled down with all ur burst stuff and w8 until block ends, or just miss with all skills and waste all of ur initiative. U wont kill anyone with these 2.5 secs or do some worthy impact. Other ur burst if u have assasin signet with stacked modifiers wont be able to land, cuz u have to play defensively and dat necro fore example (who is easiest target) will spam u fear/condies/chills or put shroud. And im not telling anything about magnetic auras, scourge barriers and fb's sphere that does reflect to u. Using bers+scholar = instakill for enemy thief, that will just fear u throught landing backstab + heartseeker, allmost instakill for enemy mirage, oneshot from enemy pew pew soulbeast, guaranteed kill for enemy rev. As u can see, at all variants ur combat will be long, and bqobk was taken to land fast burst earlier, before patch to land some heavy damage and then finish that guy. Now all what u can do is just waste ur initiative and land some random 2.3k bullet, or 3.5k dj cuz u wont have all 5/7 malice for good dj.

    Ah yes, DE is really hard to play when you pick the wrong traits and do subpar combos.

    De's main problem is slowness.

    Look up what Meld with Shadows does. Shadow Arts is mandatory.

    He gains secondary resourse too ling to land some worthy strike at the moment u need, and also de has no unblokable strikes/interrupts to deal with some rangers, interrupt guardians hea;, it has only stealth and shadowstep as save skill, and some ok sustain, not good not bad, just ok. De is good for cutting noobs, on higher mmr u will be hardly punished for every time u left stealth.

    Well I guess I just imagine being top 100 with it. I must be quite delusional. After all you cannot pewpew once a reflecting dome or swirling winds goes up on mid, so that match is pretty much over I guess.

    • And yes, de is useless, u just need one of: tempest, rev, hfb, or healscg (metasupps) and u wont be able to kill someone earlier than ur mates die. If de had potential someone would play it, but none of p2+ does,

    Again, guess I don't exist.

    de just a meme and taken for fun, what is rare at g3+. U could carry a game with this build before feb patch, but not now. Sadly, but i love playing sniper, and take it sometimes when we lack of sustain in team, but it easily countered, espesially if enemies can rotate. U can play prorely and just got smashed by some mirage + dp thief that has far more mobility than u for +1.

    For some reason, this is not just your opinion, almost everyone thinks this way. Either they are too lazy to properly learn DE, or I'm a uniquely gifted PvP god. As much as I want to think it's the latter, reality is people just don't want to put in effort into a lame looking pew-pew. Just say you don't want to play it.

    I don't want to play it. In fact I don't want it to exist.
    Wake me up from this nightmare.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    stealth/teleport on a ranged nuke will never be a thing, because it's just toxic
    try warrior killshot, the real sniper with real risks. DE has basically 0 risk.

    Ironically of the 2, DE has far more risk. Killshot warrior is still Warrior, a class with blocks evades and decent healing. If a thief, a rev or any other mobile class jumps on you, or another ranged class attacks you, you can manage. If the same happens to a DE? He is dead unless he burns shadowstep.

    now you are just pulling BS out of your kitten.
    i play DE exclusively in wvw for how risk free it is, DE easily be double the sustain a rifle warrior has.

    Yes, the class that has far less health, less armour, worse healing, no sustained healing, no blocks, no extra evades, no partial invulnerability or anything of the sort has more sustain than Rifle Warrior. Riiiiight.

    clearly you have no idea what you talking about either DE nor killshot warrior.

    Oh no, I do. But you? You clearly dont. I mean jeez, talk about being smug while being uninformed.

    when you are a squishy build, no amount of healing/evade will save you from being focused except mobility and stealth.

    Stealth will not save you at all. Blocks, partial invulnerability, and general tankiness however will. As for mobility, on flat ground Warrior has Thief beat.

    heres a recommendation, before you ever make comparsion, try them.

    I have. Here is a recommendation: Listen to your own advice. You will find that when playing DE, any mobile or ranged class just messes you the hell up. And you will find that those happen to be most of them. Warrior can handle being jumped by another thief, a Rev, even a Mesmer, or being countersniped by a Longbow ranger, a dragonhunter or whatever. A thief cannot.

  • Aihao.5824Aihao.5824 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Aihao.5824 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    You mentioned that 1v1 ability for the spec is bad. It's because DE has insane damage potential. Berserkers amulet, scholar runes, separation sigil, assassin signet, BQoBK... it's not that hard to stack all your modifiers which result in a 2.5 second window where you can land enough damage to down anything short of a full shroud necromancer. The "skill" involved is knowing when to land the burst, and how to force windows where the enemy is vulnerable to it.
    DJ used to be unblockable, it was taken away during the nerfs gradually tuning all overperforming specs down. At the time it was unfair, now it definitely isn't. DE-s real tradeoff is getting better(and ranged) damage at the cost of reliance on stealth+projectiles, with lessened mobility. An unblockable DJ would bypass half of this tradeoff, and would make DE far too OP - especially on lower ratings.

    People saying DE is underpowered can't play it properly. It works for me just fine.

    • de can do somthing in 1v1, but it depends on where, what cooldowns will u have, etc. U will never kill a mirage, ranger and some dp thief - all of these guys can be ur same skill lvl with u or a bit lower, that doesnt matter-. U can also be kited by weaver pretty long and be killed too.

    Doing something is hardly ever worth it unless you get a kill out of that "something" within seconds. Reliance on stealth means you cannot hold points, even contesting them is pretty hard over a longer period of time.

    dunno who are u playing against, but if u wont stealth up and kite around u gonna be dead, seems like ur opponents had a broken keyboard.

    • de has no damage potential in pvp, cuz we talking about pvp.

    It does, I even listed the main components and modifiers you can cram into a build currently, did you even read it?

    and i answered to u about what u listened, seems like u didnd understand that

    It has better sustain than dp, but burst damage lower than pd condi. To provide damage u need need hit with 2 skills (crit gives doublemalice) and 3 if u have m7 what is played more oftenly, cuz it gives much more sustain compared to bqobk(+ malicious intent that gives u 1 malice when u used mark). And this trait is completely useless, cuz u have to pick one in chamber to have more stealth access, i hope nooneneeded here to explain why stealth is so important to thieves. SO, this is all that i have said is to land 1 dj, that will hit for 10k (with full m7 and if u not dead yet to enemies that have no tooughness modifier or protection). all u can do during 2.5 secs using bqobk is to hit some 3rb but ofc u wont hit with it. Cuz in current state everyone do at least dodgeroll or pressing block after u land a mark, and u ll stay kneeled down with all ur burst stuff and w8 until block ends, or just miss with all skills and waste all of ur initiative. U wont kill anyone with these 2.5 secs or do some worthy impact. Other ur burst if u have assasin signet with stacked modifiers wont be able to land, cuz u have to play defensively and dat necro fore example (who is easiest target) will spam u fear/condies/chills or put shroud. And im not telling anything about magnetic auras, scourge barriers and fb's sphere that does reflect to u. Using bers+scholar = instakill for enemy thief, that will just fear u throught landing backstab + heartseeker, allmost instakill for enemy mirage, oneshot from enemy pew pew soulbeast, guaranteed kill for enemy rev. As u can see, at all variants ur combat will be long, and bqobk was taken to land fast burst earlier, before patch to land some heavy damage and then finish that guy. Now all what u can do is just waste ur initiative and land some random 2.3k bullet, or 3.5k dj cuz u wont have all 5/7 malice for good dj.

    Ah yes, DE is really hard to play when you pick the wrong traits and do subpar combos.

    he is not, all that hardiness comes from rifle and projectile block.

    De's main problem is slowness.

    Look up what Meld with Shadows does. Shadow Arts is mandatory.

    i was not talking about its moving on a map, i told about executing mechanics to deal damage. And yes, meld in shadows requiers wasting initiative or cooldowns for stealth, so u just can be killed by random guy cuz u have nothing to escape.

    He gains secondary resourse too ling to land some worthy strike at the moment u need, and also de has no unblokable strikes/interrupts to deal with some rangers, interrupt guardians hea;, it has only stealth and shadowstep as save skill, and some ok sustain, not good not bad, just ok. De is good for cutting noobs, on higher mmr u will be hardly punished for every time u left stealth.

    Well I guess I just imagine being top 100 with it. I must be quite delusional. After all you cannot pewpew once a reflecting dome or swirling winds goes up on mid, so that match is pretty much over I guess.

    already checked u, and there is noone at top 250 with nickname like u have here.

    • And yes, de is useless, u just need one of: tempest, rev, hfb, or healscg (metasupps) and u wont be able to kill someone earlier than ur mates die. If de had potential someone would play it, but none of p2+ does,

    Again, guess I don't exist.

    yep, seems like

    de just a meme and taken for fun, what is rare at g3+. U could carry a game with this build before feb patch, but not now. Sadly, but i love playing sniper, and take it sometimes when we lack of sustain in team, but it easily countered, espesially if enemies can rotate. U can play prorely and just got smashed by some mirage + dp thief that has far more mobility than u for +1.

    For some reason, this is not just your opinion, almost everyone thinks this way. Either they are too lazy to properly learn DE, or I'm a uniquely gifted PvP god. As much as I want to think it's the latter, reality is people just don't want to put in effort into a lame looking pew-pew. Just say you don't want to play it.

    ow, so u was trolling me about de, sry, i thought we had a serious discussion. Actually i love de, and everything i telling u is based on situtations i was in.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    Deadeye needs to be relegated to +1. If its kit allows it to approach 1v1 potential with the kind of damage modifiers and stealth access thief has built into its core, we're going to have major issues.

    Leave it where it is. DE is not hard to play. An easy, high damage spec that can contest you from 1500r away and doesn't have to commit to any fight shouldn't be encouraged by being anywhere close to standalone.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [I don't share builds!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Deadeye needs to be relegated to +1. If its kit allows it to approach 1v1 potential with the kind of damage modifiers and stealth access thief has built into its core, we're going to have major issues.

    Thats the thing though, its not even good at +1ing. Way too easy to shut down.

    Leave it where it is. DE is not hard to play. An easy, high damage spec that can contest you from 1500r away and doesn't have to commit to any fight shouldn't be encouraged by being anywhere close to standalone.

    1200 range. Deadeye has 1200 range. Kneeling is actively detrimental, so you never kneel. And actually, they would have to commit to a fight, since they have to use initiative to stack up malice, meaning their escape is locked out.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    1200 range. Deadeye has 1200 range

    You're right. I had ranger ptsd.

    And actually, they would have to commit to a fight, since they have to use initiative to stack up malice, meaning their escape is locked out.

    You're wrong. That's not what that means at all.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Deadeye needs to be relegated to +1. If its kit allows it to approach 1v1 potential with the kind of damage modifiers and stealth access thief has built into its core, we're going to have major issues.

    Thats the thing though, its not even good at +1ing. Way too easy to shut down.

    Perch on a box and take potshots at a sidenode until your opponent is frustrated while they're fighting an ally, immob them for free? If they chase you immediately leave, then come back?
    What about that is easy to shut down?

    It's performing fine as an add. You make it any easier and I can assure you at best only Deadeye and at worst every thief spec will be back at square -1 very quickly

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [I don't share builds!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    1200 range. Deadeye has 1200 range

    You're right. I had ranger ptsd.

    And actually, they would have to commit to a fight, since they have to use initiative to stack up malice, meaning their escape is locked out.

    You're wrong. That's not what that means at all.

    It does, actually. They got Shadowstep, but every class has that kind of "oh kitten" button. But their regular avenue of escape, shortbow 5? Bit hard to use that, if you aint got initiative.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Deadeye needs to be relegated to +1. If its kit allows it to approach 1v1 potential with the kind of damage modifiers and stealth access thief has built into its core, we're going to have major issues.

    Thats the thing though, its not even good at +1ing. Way too easy to shut down.

    Perch on a box and take potshots at a sidenode until your opponent is frustrated, immob them for free? If they chase you immediately leave, then come back?
    What about that is easy to shut down?

    So, you had to take time to find and climb on a spot they cant immediately fight back from, and then you .. dont even do much? Not to mention that any projectile reflect, any blocks, any enemy that has ranged attacks and any high mobility classes can in fact easily shut that down. And uh, thats all of them. Ranger just rapid fires you or knocks you off, Holo tosses nades at you, Condi Rev has his options, and so on.

    It's performing fine as an add. You make it any easier and I can assure you at best only Deadeye and at worst every thief spec will be back at square -1 very quickly

    Is it? Ive last seen a Deadeye in ranked that performed well in .... 2018, I think? All of the ones Ive seen since then are just way worse thieves.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    Is it? Ive last seen a Deadeye in ranked that performed well in .... 2018, I think? All of the ones Ive seen since then are just way worse thieves.

    Wasnt Destfire top5 EU only DE play 2/3 seasons ago. He is stiil playing DE a lot as well as DDuff...

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    Is it? Ive last seen a Deadeye in ranked that performed well in .... 2018, I think? All of the ones Ive seen since then are just way worse thieves.

    Wasnt Destfire top5 EU only DE play 2/3 seasons ago. He is stiil playing DE a lot as well as DDuff...

    Shhhh! Nobody is playing deadeye!

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    stealth/teleport on a ranged nuke will never be a thing, because it's just toxic
    try warrior killshot, the real sniper with real risks. DE has basically 0 risk.

    Ironically of the 2, DE has far more risk. Killshot warrior is still Warrior, a class with blocks evades and decent healing. If a thief, a rev or any other mobile class jumps on you, or another ranged class attacks you, you can manage. If the same happens to a DE? He is dead unless he burns shadowstep.

    "Blocks, evades, and decent healing"?

    First of all: a killshot warrior probably is using a GS for a swap weapon.

    2nd: I didn't know only warrior can evade.

    3rd: "Decent healing doesn't save you, where as deadeye heal literally gives you free disengage because of shadow arts.

    4: Warrior does not have better mobility in combat

    5: what do you think happens to the warrior after 3 seconds of endure pain if he gets ganked?

    Thief by far has the best disengage free. And if you get revealed you literally have an elite skill that can unreveal.. Twice.

    And even in the direct 1 vs 1 rifle battle you have free smokescreen to block projectiles.

    The only risk is you not knowing the tools the class you claim you play has.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TeqkOneStylez.8047 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    stealth/teleport on a ranged nuke will never be a thing, because it's just toxic
    try warrior killshot, the real sniper with real risks. DE has basically 0 risk.

    Ironically of the 2, DE has far more risk. Killshot warrior is still Warrior, a class with blocks evades and decent healing. If a thief, a rev or any other mobile class jumps on you, or another ranged class attacks you, you can manage. If the same happens to a DE? He is dead unless he burns shadowstep.

    "Blocks, evades, and decent healing"?

    First of all: a killshot warrior probably is using a GS for a swap weapon.

    Right, it doesnt have a block. So its just evades.

    2nd: I didn't know only warrior can evade.

    Oh a lot of classes can evade well. DE is ... not one of them. The only evade it has is shortbow 3, and its not that good.

    3rd: "Decent healing doesn't save you, where as deadeye heal literally gives you free disengage because of shadow arts.

    It does. And Deadeyes heal (I assume you mean HiS, since thats what thief usually uses nowadays) is not a "free disengage" at all. It still doesnt stop the mobile burst classes from bursting you.

    4: Warrior does not have better mobility in combat

    Define "mobility in combat". Because DE has no mobility you use other than when moving around the map out of combat, or trying to run away. Deaths Retreat is really really bad. And if you mean "when using to run away", depends on elevation. If there is a cliff or other incline to port up, thief wins. If its flat ground? Warrior wins.

    5: what do you think happens to the warrior after 3 seconds of endure pain if he gets ganked?

    If he doesnt manage to run away, he dies. What do you think happens to thief 3 seconds earlier, if he gets ganked? Spoiler: Same thing. Only faster.

    Thief by far has the best disengage free. And if you get revealed you literally have an elite skill that can unreveal.. Twice.

    Stealth is awful at disengaging. Shortbow 5 is great, but when you aint got the initiative to use it, well, thats that. And again, Warrior has Greatswords mobility.

    And even in the direct 1 vs 1 rifle battle you have free smokescreen to block projectiles.

    Its not "free" at all. It forces you to kneel (which is really bad) and costs a lot of initiative without progressing Malificent 7 (which is also really bad). And it doesnt even really save you against the mobile classes. Hell, a good engineer just throws the grenades below it so that the AoE hits you.

    The only risk is you not knowing the tools the class you claim you play has.

    I never claimed I play Deadeye actively? I played it a bit a while ago, and I play it in WvW for dailies because its the only class I got up to date PvE gear on. Its similar to thief. If you can use shortbow 5 to run away, youre good. If you cant, youre going to die. And as Deadeye, well, quite often you dont have the initiative to use Shortbow 5.

  • Roche.7491Roche.7491 Member ✭✭
    edited July 20, 2020

    @Luclinraider.2317 said:
    I really think DJ receiving Unbloackable, Penetration, or both, would make Rifle a much more viable spec in PvP. Even if it needs to be added into a talent tree. Heck, my opinion would be to rework Collateral Damage. It's a trait that is used in no build, in any area of the game. Change this to "Death's Judgement gains Unblockable and Penetration". It would take away from Thief's Damage Ability by not being able to take Malicious Intent, but provide more utility by rendering DJ actually viable to use.
    What do you guys think the issue with DE is?

    I couldn’t agree more. Just in arctic sniper rifle in CounterStrike, one shot one kill. Max penetration! Max damage!

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

    And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

    And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

    What are you on right now?

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

    And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

    What are you on right now?

    Its a little something called "reality". You might want to try it, helps not being stuck in a fantasy land where Deadeyes actually get to hit DJs and use the quickness trait.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

    And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

    What are you on right now?

    Its a little something called "reality". You might want to try it, helps not being stuck in a fantasy land where Deadeyes actually get to hit DJs and use the quickness trait.

    That's implying they use mug? They can steal quickness, my point was that animations don't follow sound queues, this ain't fantasy land. I got actual footage of it.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

    And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

    What are you on right now?

    Its a little something called "reality". You might want to try it, helps not being stuck in a fantasy land where Deadeyes actually get to hit DJs and use the quickness trait.

    That's implying they use mug? They can steal quickness, my point was that animations don't follow sound queues, this ain't fantasy land. I got actual footage of it.

    Ignoring that they obviously use mug, any quickness they steal runs out before they can use DJ, unless they skip stacking malice, but then DJ doesnt do damage, soooo. And even with quickness the bright orange line remains. Even if the sound were to desync (though thats the first time Ive heard of that. There was a bug where stealth itself desyncs and the telegraph appears after the attack hits, but I havent seen that in a while).

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

    And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

    What are you on right now?

    Its a little something called "reality". You might want to try it, helps not being stuck in a fantasy land where Deadeyes actually get to hit DJs and use the quickness trait.

    That's implying they use mug? They can steal quickness, my point was that animations don't follow sound queues, this ain't fantasy land. I got actual footage of it.

    Ignoring that they obviously use mug, any quickness they steal runs out before they can use DJ, unless they skip stacking malice, but then DJ doesnt do damage, soooo. And even with quickness the bright orange line remains. Even if the sound were to desync (though thats the first time Ive heard of that. There was a bug where stealth itself desyncs and the telegraph appears after the attack hits, but I havent seen that in a while).

    It's long enough to mess up the feedback, not like it's hard to F1 and press 1 right away, add a shadowstep to disorient even more. Doesn't matter how hard DJ hits as it costs nothing, it's easy to manage Malice when you can sit back left and right safely at +1200 to determine if small bursts of 5k are better than just putting it all in one because the target doesn't know how much Malice there is until it's maxed out with it's vague effect or assumption that "enough damage" was done. It's baiting constantly on a short reveal while the 3 round burst can possibly do the work, following a better DJ as you can easily count the sustain of a class as they try to live through. Without any consistent reveal to outdo a /good/ DE, they cannot be really stomped through any clever play whatsoever and the damage is saved through baiting, add the double marking that denies ANY nullification to the Rifle 2 or ranged CC. Messed up? Perma port/stealth away, random DJ spam 2 after, it's not like you won't have your Malice since you never lose it until a time out, if that DJ is dodged, still have all your Malice, no damage lost after who knows how many proper DJ dodges/blocks.

    TD;LR Malice shouldn't be kept if missing the stealth attack. The utility available is already strong enough to compensate for mistakes. If not for malice consumption. Reveal should be 5 seconds like ALL other skills.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    Perhaps DJ should not be balanced around...I assume this is a bug of some sort?

    Either way even w/out the sound the attack is blatantly trivial to mitigate. DE doesn't exactly have much room for skills that lock other players down. Stealth/Kneel -> Kneeling rifle2 -> DJ only works at a certain distance, IIRC, and that makes the skill even MORE predictable. Oh goodness gracious the DE went into stealth after hitting me a couple times what could they possibly be up to :O

    Switching out a pretty meh trait for unblockable would be a decent tradeoff.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    Perhaps DJ should not be balanced around...I assume this is a bug of some sort?

    Either way even w/out the sound the attack is blatantly trivial to mitigate. DE doesn't exactly have much room for skills that lock other players down. Stealth/Kneel -> Kneeling rifle2 -> DJ only works at a certain distance, IIRC, and that makes the skill even MORE predictable. Oh goodness gracious the DE went into stealth after hitting me a couple times what could they possibly be up to :O

    Switching out a pretty meh trait for unblockable would be a decent tradeoff.

    We all know they are up to use DJ, but it's not like there's any punishment for using it? Just try again over and over until your target runs out of sustain.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

    And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

    What are you on right now?

    Its a little something called "reality". You might want to try it, helps not being stuck in a fantasy land where Deadeyes actually get to hit DJs and use the quickness trait.

    That's implying they use mug? They can steal quickness, my point was that animations don't follow sound queues, this ain't fantasy land. I got actual footage of it.

    Ignoring that they obviously use mug, any quickness they steal runs out before they can use DJ, unless they skip stacking malice, but then DJ doesnt do damage, soooo. And even with quickness the bright orange line remains. Even if the sound were to desync (though thats the first time Ive heard of that. There was a bug where stealth itself desyncs and the telegraph appears after the attack hits, but I havent seen that in a while).

    It's long enough to mess up the feedback, not like it's hard to F1 and press 1 right away, add a shadowstep to disorient even more. Doesn't matter how hard DJ hits as it costs nothing, it's easy to manage Malice when you can sit back left and right safely at +1200 to determine if small bursts of 5k are better than just putting it all in one because the target doesn't know how much Malice there is until it's maxed out with it's vague effect or assumption that "enough damage" was done. It's baiting constantly on a short reveal while the 3 round burst can possibly do the work, following a better DJ as you can easily count the sustain of a class as they try to live through. Without any consistent reveal to outdo a /good/ DE, they cannot be really stomped through any clever play whatsoever and the damage is saved through baiting, add the double marking that denies ANY nullification to the Rifle 2 or ranged CC. Messed up? Perma port/stealth away, random DJ spam 2 after, it's not like you won't have your Malice since you never lose it until a time out, if that DJ is dodged, still have all your Malice, no damage lost after who knows how many proper DJ dodges/blocks.

    Again, if they dont stack malice, thats just not a hard hitting attack at all. Lets say they do that. Steal quickness, and immediately use DJ. The DJ then hits for, hm. 3k-ish? Ok, thats nothing. And then? You say its easy to sit safely at +1200 (I assume you mean just 1200 range here, because kneeling is never used), but you do know other classes with 1200 range exist, right? And classes with mobility to quickly catch up to you? They can and will kill you. Your complete lack of knowledge on DE hurts you again, because Three-Round-Burst is not used at all. Kneeling is trash, you use skirmishers shot. You dont need reveal to kill a DE at all. They can easily be stomped by any half-decent player (Thats why you dont see them be played), and it seems you think they always have max initiative to do whatever they want, but also use their initiative for offense.

    TD;LR Malice shouldn't be kept if missing the stealth attack. The utility available is already strong enough to compensate for mistakes. If not for malice consumption. Reveal should be 5 seconds like ALL other skills.

    "Yeah good job taking an underpowered class and nerfing it further for no actual reason" is what I would usually say. Except ... Im not even sure this is a nerf. Actually this is probably a major buff. Once again your complete lack of knowledge bites you. See, the correct way to play DE is to use maleficent seven, and just spam skirmishers shot until you get the proc. The problem is that then, you would want to hit a DJ to reset malice, but against a half-decent player you dont get to hit a DJ. But with your suggestion? Just burn the DJ into thin air, cancel it, then use skirmishers shot again until youre at max malice. It makes the class way more effective.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

    And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

    What are you on right now?

    Its a little something called "reality". You might want to try it, helps not being stuck in a fantasy land where Deadeyes actually get to hit DJs and use the quickness trait.

    That's implying they use mug? They can steal quickness, my point was that animations don't follow sound queues, this ain't fantasy land. I got actual footage of it.

    Ignoring that they obviously use mug, any quickness they steal runs out before they can use DJ, unless they skip stacking malice, but then DJ doesnt do damage, soooo. And even with quickness the bright orange line remains. Even if the sound were to desync (though thats the first time Ive heard of that. There was a bug where stealth itself desyncs and the telegraph appears after the attack hits, but I havent seen that in a while).

    It's long enough to mess up the feedback, not like it's hard to F1 and press 1 right away, add a shadowstep to disorient even more. Doesn't matter how hard DJ hits as it costs nothing, it's easy to manage Malice when you can sit back left and right safely at +1200 to determine if small bursts of 5k are better than just putting it all in one because the target doesn't know how much Malice there is until it's maxed out with it's vague effect or assumption that "enough damage" was done. It's baiting constantly on a short reveal while the 3 round burst can possibly do the work, following a better DJ as you can easily count the sustain of a class as they try to live through. Without any consistent reveal to outdo a /good/ DE, they cannot be really stomped through any clever play whatsoever and the damage is saved through baiting, add the double marking that denies ANY nullification to the Rifle 2 or ranged CC. Messed up? Perma port/stealth away, random DJ spam 2 after, it's not like you won't have your Malice since you never lose it until a time out, if that DJ is dodged, still have all your Malice, no damage lost after who knows how many proper DJ dodges/blocks.

    Again, if they dont stack malice, thats just not a hard hitting attack at all. Lets say they do that. Steal quickness, and immediately use DJ. The DJ then hits for, hm. 3k-ish? Ok, thats nothing. And then? You say its easy to sit safely at +1200 (I assume you mean just 1200 range here, because kneeling is never used), but you do know other classes with 1200 range exist, right? And classes with mobility to quickly catch up to you? They can and will kill you. Your complete lack of knowledge on DE hurts you again, because Three-Round-Burst is not used at all. Kneeling is trash, you use skirmishers shot. You dont need reveal to kill a DE at all. They can easily be stomped by any half-decent player (Thats why you dont see them be played), and it seems you think they always have max initiative to do whatever they want, but also use their initiative for offense.

    TD;LR Malice shouldn't be kept if missing the stealth attack. The utility available is already strong enough to compensate for mistakes. If not for malice consumption. Reveal should be 5 seconds like ALL other skills.

    "Yeah good job taking an underpowered class and nerfing it further for no actual reason" is what I would usually say. Except ... Im not even sure this is a nerf. Actually this is probably a major buff. Once again your complete lack of knowledge bites you. See, the correct way to play DE is to use maleficent seven, and just spam skirmishers shot until you get the proc. The problem is that then, you would want to hit a DJ to reset malice, but against a half-decent player you dont get to hit a DJ. But with your suggestion? Just burn the DJ into thin air, cancel it, then use skirmishers shot again until youre at max malice. It makes the class way more effective.

    It's a complete lack of knowledge to avoid over 6+ DJ's and yet still keep the ability to deal full damage on a class that can recover in perma stealth and shadowstep back and forth. Just tank everything else that cause damages, even though it deals just as much over time sitting around.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

    And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

    What are you on right now?

    Its a little something called "reality". You might want to try it, helps not being stuck in a fantasy land where Deadeyes actually get to hit DJs and use the quickness trait.

    That's implying they use mug? They can steal quickness, my point was that animations don't follow sound queues, this ain't fantasy land. I got actual footage of it.

    Ignoring that they obviously use mug, any quickness they steal runs out before they can use DJ, unless they skip stacking malice, but then DJ doesnt do damage, soooo. And even with quickness the bright orange line remains. Even if the sound were to desync (though thats the first time Ive heard of that. There was a bug where stealth itself desyncs and the telegraph appears after the attack hits, but I havent seen that in a while).

    It's long enough to mess up the feedback, not like it's hard to F1 and press 1 right away, add a shadowstep to disorient even more. Doesn't matter how hard DJ hits as it costs nothing, it's easy to manage Malice when you can sit back left and right safely at +1200 to determine if small bursts of 5k are better than just putting it all in one because the target doesn't know how much Malice there is until it's maxed out with it's vague effect or assumption that "enough damage" was done. It's baiting constantly on a short reveal while the 3 round burst can possibly do the work, following a better DJ as you can easily count the sustain of a class as they try to live through. Without any consistent reveal to outdo a /good/ DE, they cannot be really stomped through any clever play whatsoever and the damage is saved through baiting, add the double marking that denies ANY nullification to the Rifle 2 or ranged CC. Messed up? Perma port/stealth away, random DJ spam 2 after, it's not like you won't have your Malice since you never lose it until a time out, if that DJ is dodged, still have all your Malice, no damage lost after who knows how many proper DJ dodges/blocks.

    Again, if they dont stack malice, thats just not a hard hitting attack at all. Lets say they do that. Steal quickness, and immediately use DJ. The DJ then hits for, hm. 3k-ish? Ok, thats nothing. And then? You say its easy to sit safely at +1200 (I assume you mean just 1200 range here, because kneeling is never used), but you do know other classes with 1200 range exist, right? And classes with mobility to quickly catch up to you? They can and will kill you. Your complete lack of knowledge on DE hurts you again, because Three-Round-Burst is not used at all. Kneeling is trash, you use skirmishers shot. You dont need reveal to kill a DE at all. They can easily be stomped by any half-decent player (Thats why you dont see them be played), and it seems you think they always have max initiative to do whatever they want, but also use their initiative for offense.

    TD;LR Malice shouldn't be kept if missing the stealth attack. The utility available is already strong enough to compensate for mistakes. If not for malice consumption. Reveal should be 5 seconds like ALL other skills.

    "Yeah good job taking an underpowered class and nerfing it further for no actual reason" is what I would usually say. Except ... Im not even sure this is a nerf. Actually this is probably a major buff. Once again your complete lack of knowledge bites you. See, the correct way to play DE is to use maleficent seven, and just spam skirmishers shot until you get the proc. The problem is that then, you would want to hit a DJ to reset malice, but against a half-decent player you dont get to hit a DJ. But with your suggestion? Just burn the DJ into thin air, cancel it, then use skirmishers shot again until youre at max malice. It makes the class way more effective.

    It's a complete lack of knowledge to avoid over 6+ DJ's and yet still keep the ability to deal full damage on a class that can recover in perma stealth and shadowstep back and forth. Just tank everything else that cause damages, even though it deals just as much over time sitting around.

    Man you really should learn to quit when the fact that you dont know the class youre talking about has become clear. Its not even close to "full damage". Somewhere between 70-90% of DEs damage is skirmishers shot off of maleficent seven. DJ is more of a hindrance than a benefit. Hence why your suggestion is a buff. Also, DE doesnt have access to permastealth without switching weapons, and at that point they cant even use DJ. They also dont have the ability to shadowstep back and forth at all (other than by using Shadowstep, which they can do once per fight).

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

    And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

    What are you on right now?

    Its a little something called "reality". You might want to try it, helps not being stuck in a fantasy land where Deadeyes actually get to hit DJs and use the quickness trait.

    That's implying they use mug? They can steal quickness, my point was that animations don't follow sound queues, this ain't fantasy land. I got actual footage of it.

    Ignoring that they obviously use mug, any quickness they steal runs out before they can use DJ, unless they skip stacking malice, but then DJ doesnt do damage, soooo. And even with quickness the bright orange line remains. Even if the sound were to desync (though thats the first time Ive heard of that. There was a bug where stealth itself desyncs and the telegraph appears after the attack hits, but I havent seen that in a while).

    It's long enough to mess up the feedback, not like it's hard to F1 and press 1 right away, add a shadowstep to disorient even more. Doesn't matter how hard DJ hits as it costs nothing, it's easy to manage Malice when you can sit back left and right safely at +1200 to determine if small bursts of 5k are better than just putting it all in one because the target doesn't know how much Malice there is until it's maxed out with it's vague effect or assumption that "enough damage" was done. It's baiting constantly on a short reveal while the 3 round burst can possibly do the work, following a better DJ as you can easily count the sustain of a class as they try to live through. Without any consistent reveal to outdo a /good/ DE, they cannot be really stomped through any clever play whatsoever and the damage is saved through baiting, add the double marking that denies ANY nullification to the Rifle 2 or ranged CC. Messed up? Perma port/stealth away, random DJ spam 2 after, it's not like you won't have your Malice since you never lose it until a time out, if that DJ is dodged, still have all your Malice, no damage lost after who knows how many proper DJ dodges/blocks.

    Again, if they dont stack malice, thats just not a hard hitting attack at all. Lets say they do that. Steal quickness, and immediately use DJ. The DJ then hits for, hm. 3k-ish? Ok, thats nothing. And then? You say its easy to sit safely at +1200 (I assume you mean just 1200 range here, because kneeling is never used), but you do know other classes with 1200 range exist, right? And classes with mobility to quickly catch up to you? They can and will kill you. Your complete lack of knowledge on DE hurts you again, because Three-Round-Burst is not used at all. Kneeling is trash, you use skirmishers shot. You dont need reveal to kill a DE at all. They can easily be stomped by any half-decent player (Thats why you dont see them be played), and it seems you think they always have max initiative to do whatever they want, but also use their initiative for offense.

    TD;LR Malice shouldn't be kept if missing the stealth attack. The utility available is already strong enough to compensate for mistakes. If not for malice consumption. Reveal should be 5 seconds like ALL other skills.

    "Yeah good job taking an underpowered class and nerfing it further for no actual reason" is what I would usually say. Except ... Im not even sure this is a nerf. Actually this is probably a major buff. Once again your complete lack of knowledge bites you. See, the correct way to play DE is to use maleficent seven, and just spam skirmishers shot until you get the proc. The problem is that then, you would want to hit a DJ to reset malice, but against a half-decent player you dont get to hit a DJ. But with your suggestion? Just burn the DJ into thin air, cancel it, then use skirmishers shot again until youre at max malice. It makes the class way more effective.

    It's a complete lack of knowledge to avoid over 6+ DJ's and yet still keep the ability to deal full damage on a class that can recover in perma stealth and shadowstep back and forth. Just tank everything else that cause damages, even though it deals just as much over time sitting around.

    Man you really should learn to quit when the fact that you dont know the class youre talking about has become clear. Its not even close to "full damage". Somewhere between 70-90% of DEs damage is skirmishers shot off of maleficent seven. DJ is more of a hindrance than a benefit. Hence why your suggestion is a buff. Also, DE doesnt have access to permastealth without switching weapons, and at that point they cant even use DJ. They also dont have the ability to shadowstep back and forth at all (other than by using Shadowstep, which they can do once per fight).

    Having to build up damage again is far from a buff, it actually gives people skills value in not getting constantly hit, that's like when you said shortbow 4 from before is more powerful, it ain't because of it's predictability and time taken.

    I can easily mitigate the dazes knowing that they are because of the poison, not because of a nearly unpredictable unblockable aoe at their feet. Nothing says it's 2 or 4. Wasting all the initiative to keep a down down with poison will only put the thief in a bad position if the resser can take the cleave.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As someone who played rifle DE, DJ should not be unblockable or piercing. It was nerfed for a good reason.hile I agree some of the abilities are....underused, initiative on the retreat could use lowering and #5 could use a change. Have kneeling be bound by another button and the #5 could be an attack

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    CLOK Commander and all around nice bro