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Downstate - To Change or Not To Change...yeah that's the question

TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

Yes, its is another dreaded poll, queue music. Dun dun DUNNNN!

So to keep it simple, let's take a look at where people are today but keep it kind of broad since there are a lot of options on one side and not much on the other. Should downstate be kept as is with no changes. Or changed in some fashion. Forums are a small percentage of players but since references are made to older polls and a number of people didn't want to distract from Alliances but it seems clear it won't anyway so...where are people at with their thoughts? Appreciate your time and opinion. Good gaming!

Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

Downstate - To Change or Not To Change...yeah that's the question 94 votes

Keep as is. (No changes to mechanics, skills, timers, literally as is right now.)
37% 35 votes
Change it. (Could include: skills change, timers, balance, rally, HP pools, downstate removal, rez options/skills, aka adjusting in anyway regardless of scale.)
55% 52 votes
Other. (Please explain. Please avoid spend time elsewhere this isn't about spending anytime on it right now.)
7% 7 votes
<1

Comments

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    with the damage nerf it definitely needs to be changed. maybe 3 max ressers at the very least.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They need to buff downed state. A good change in my mind would be to remove all cirrent downed state skills but give everyone standard ones. Thieves teleport/stealth and ele Vapor form.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I miss the old one where you only need to tap and raly from a downed player. Should be returned to the old rally wars.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Solanum.6983Solanum.6983 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2020

    I don't think it should be removed, I like the mechanic It keeps things interesting.
    Some of the classes have a way better time in downstate which I wish they would look at like Ele's vapor form going into doors for one example but My main problem with it is in a big group it's just too easy to ress anyone who goes down, Maybe a reduction in the health pool some more would help.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solanum.6983 said:
    Maybe a reduction in the health pool for every time someone goes down would help, Like a 3 times and you're dead for good?

    Uh thats exactly how it works now.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the first place to start is to remove or reduce the speed increase of revival you see where multiple players hit F, which is really where it gets out of hand.

    20 players stacked tight around some rams can revive a player who goes down from AC fire in about 1 second. We got rid of instant Warclaw stomps which countered that tactic, now we need to address the tactic itself.

    Normalize the revive speed during combat so it doesn't matter if 1 player or 3 players is involved?

    And sorry, but they need to stat split Life Leech. If two players go into downed state at the same time, and only one is a Necro, everybody knows the outcome. Even in PvE I'd say it's a tad OP, but in a competitive mode, compared to what every other profession has? Yeah.

  • Solanum.6983Solanum.6983 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Solanum.6983 said:
    Maybe a reduction in the health pool for every time someone goes down would help, Like a 3 times and you're dead for good?

    Uh thats exactly how it works now.

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Solanum.6983 said:
    Maybe a reduction in the health pool for every time someone goes down would help, Like a 3 times and you're dead for good?

    Uh thats exactly how it works now.

    Is that with both healthpools? Huh I never realized, My bad.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Normalize the revive speed during combat so it doesn't matter if 1 player or 3 players is involved?

    Or as I have been in favor for: the 1:1 principle that Anet only halfarsed.

    • 1 rally
    • 1 stomp
    • 1 revive
    • (and you can add 1 time downed before 60s debuff kill you if you want)

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The poll options are kinda bad. Don't think downstate is troublesome as it is.

    They could reduce downstate health % a bit so it takes a bit more to ress people but don't think it matters.

    Truth is, I don't understand this downstate hate train. Just die at a spot where you can get ressed at & kill enemies where they can't.

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, innovator
    Social Experiment [sX] leader
    Desolation+Alt
    Diamond Legend

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I think the first place to start is to remove or reduce the speed increase of revival you see where multiple players hit F, which is really where it gets out of hand.

    20 players stacked tight around some rams can revive a player who goes down from AC fire in about 1 second. We got rid of instant Warclaw stomps which countered that tactic, now we need to address the tactic itself.

    Normalize the revive speed during combat so it doesn't matter if 1 player or 3 players is involved?

    And sorry, but they need to stat split Life Leech. If two players go into downed state at the same time, and only one is a Necro, everybody knows the outcome. Even in PvE I'd say it's a tad OP, but in a competitive mode, compared to what every other profession has? Yeah.

    Only 5 person can revive something now.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You left an option out.

    Remove downstate.

    But if it has to stay then then they need to reduce the HP pool by half, reduce the number of rezzers to 1 or 2, and they need to do a complete rework of the downskills on each class and actually make them balanced with each other, I'd be open to having more downskills though. Bandage Self should heal for more though than it currently does.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 said:
    The poll options are kinda bad. Don't think downstate is troublesome as it is.

    They could reduce downstate health % a bit so it takes a bit more to ress people but don't think it matters.

    Truth is, I don't understand this downstate hate train. Just die at a spot where you can get ressed at & kill enemies where they can't.

    I did a more detailed poll in the past and people said there were too many options. So to understand where people are now 6 months later figured go with more binary options. I think we have seen in regards to the change side that people have lots of differences but there is a common thread of some change is needed. So trying to understand from the limited forum sampling what that looks like or is it just some of us are more vocal about it overall.

    Been thinking about how to phrase a poll to understand the people that are looking for change, where are they coming from and is this is an environment side thing or something else. It over simplified to say gankers want to gank. I can only speak for myself here but, as I have stated in the past, coming at it from a roamer/havoc perspective downstate too much favors numbers. There are no tools for a smaller force to slow a larger one if the larger one just has the ability to bring their dead right back in the same spot after the fight. That just discourages people from fighting in the first place if they can't impact the end result and it was pointless to try. Zergs complain about havocs running but why shouldn't they if the fight won't have any value outside of the smaller force having to just regroup. There is no price to a winning pyrrhic victory. During no downstate weeks we see large impacts where smaller forces can and do send zergs back to spawn allowing smaller forces to better defend or at least slow larger numbers. So to me, its at least needs to be changed in some ways.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    You left an option out.

    Remove downstate.

    But if it has to stay then then they need to reduce the HP pool by half, reduce the number of rezzers to 1 or 2, and they need to do a complete rework of the downskills on each class and actually make them balanced with each other, I'd be open to having more downskills though. Bandage Self should heal for more though than it currently does.

    Actually, I didn't I included it in the change side, hence the extra text after the option. I see the removal people on the side of the change versus leave as is. Again last time a lot of people indicated too many option so just trying to highlight are the forum people seeing a change could be made before we go round and round with what does that change look like.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    You left an option out.

    Remove downstate.

    But if it has to stay then then they need to reduce the HP pool by half, reduce the number of rezzers to 1 or 2, and they need to do a complete rework of the downskills on each class and actually make them balanced with each other, I'd be open to having more downskills though. Bandage Self should heal for more though than it currently does.

    Actually, I didn't I included it in the change side, hence the extra text after the option. I see the removal people on the side of the change versus leave as is. Again last time a lot of people indicated too many option so just trying to highlight are the forum people seeing a change could be made before we go round and round with what does that change look like.

    That's fair. Removing it certainly is a change. The current problem with downstate is that HP is too high for the damage levels right now. That and even 2 rezzers can get someone off the ground quicker than someone can finish a target.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    You left an option out.

    Remove downstate.

    But if it has to stay then then they need to reduce the HP pool by half, reduce the number of rezzers to 1 or 2, and they need to do a complete rework of the downskills on each class and actually make them balanced with each other, I'd be open to having more downskills though. Bandage Self should heal for more though than it currently does.

    Actually, I didn't I included it in the change side, hence the extra text after the option. I see the removal people on the side of the change versus leave as is. Again last time a lot of people indicated too many option so just trying to highlight are the forum people seeing a change could be made before we go round and round with what does that change look like.

    That's fair. Removing it certainly is a change. The current problem with downstate is that HP is too high for the damage levels right now. That and even 2 rezzers can get someone off the ground quicker than someone can finish a target.

    I agree, I "think" air quotes that its been posted out there to try a week where the extra health pool that downed were given was removed to see if that would play out better and help the numbers imbalance a bit more. Might achieve the same impact that no downstate weeks do but still allow for some advantage to numbers but less glaring of one.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    You left an option out.

    Remove downstate.

    But if it has to stay then then they need to reduce the HP pool by half, reduce the number of rezzers to 1 or 2, and they need to do a complete rework of the downskills on each class and actually make them balanced with each other, I'd be open to having more downskills though. Bandage Self should heal for more though than it currently does.

    Actually, I didn't I included it in the change side, hence the extra text after the option. I see the removal people on the side of the change versus leave as is. Again last time a lot of people indicated too many option so just trying to highlight are the forum people seeing a change could be made before we go round and round with what does that change look like.

    That's fair. Removing it certainly is a change. The current problem with downstate is that HP is too high for the damage levels right now. That and even 2 rezzers can get someone off the ground quicker than someone can finish a target.

    I agree, I "think" air quotes that its been posted out there to try a week where the extra health pool that downed were given was removed to see if that would play out better and help the numbers imbalance a bit more. Might achieve the same impact that no downstate weeks do but still allow for some advantage to numbers but less glaring of one.

    That would do wonders I think. I still think that if downstate stays that they should do a full revamp of the downstate skill sets.

  • Jeran.6850Jeran.6850 Member ✭✭

    ..... The current problem with downstate is that HP is too high for the damage levels right now. That and even 2 rezzers can get someone off the ground quicker than someone can finish a target.

    I agree, I "think" air quotes that its been posted out there to try a week where the extra health pool that downed were given was removed to see if that would play out better and help the numbers imbalance a bit more. Might achieve the same impact that no downstate weeks do but still allow for some advantage to numbers but less glaring of one.

    That would do wonders I think. I still think that if downstate stays that they should do a full revamp of the downstate skill sets.


    Hello there, i see an issue with the "extra health pool while downed removed" suggestion, which is within the different armor types of classes, or even the roles they are in. IF the extra health pool will be removed, a middle ground of hp over all classes must be found - no matter the class or build they are actually playing. It may just be me, but i do not see, why while in downstate, a staff ele should have ~16k hp, but warrior 24k, firebrand 27k, and so on (of course, depending on the build, the numbers can be way higher). Its the downstate, why are there hp differences?

    I agree with TheGrimm.5624 about a revamp of the downstate skills (i want them to be equalized), and i made my comment above with that in mind.

    Equalize the downstate skills, equalize the hp of the ones in downstate independent of the class or role/build they are in.
    And the rally have to go. You should not get up from downstate, because 15-30 sec before you placed an aoe-skill....

  • Jeran.6850Jeran.6850 Member ✭✭

    Ah, the quote doesnt work out as a thought again... :/

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2020

    Downstate adds some flavor to the game instead of just dps dps dps, and also gives a role to some builds, so I don't mind keeping it. They should remove rally, as it is a haphazard mechanic. You can do dumb things like rally off a third party's guards if two servers are fighting over a third party's target. It also creates toxicity because rallybotting makes it able for new players to greatly impact a fight negatively for being unskilled, and incentivizes guilds to avoid pug "rallybots". This is especially bad in small scale where players that aren't properly equipped to fight in that context simply won't get help because they are liabilities.

    While toxcity and such will always exist, we can't change the way people act, but we can change the game to reduce the opportunities for it to occur. Gatekeeping at this point in the game's lifespan is nothing but fatal.

    My goal here is not to design a game around who has the biggest kitten. At its core, we need to accept Gw2 is a casual game, and I think these changes would be healthiest to maintaining a working community, instead of being fragmented into the slowly dying mess it is now.

  • Jeran.6850Jeran.6850 Member ✭✭

    By the way, this was the most interresting read of all topics made up since the first "no downstate"-event.
    Both of you, Lan Deathrider.5910 and TheGrimm.5624, expressed yourselfs very well, and even though i dont agree in everything...
    well, let me say: thank you, for not falling back into stupid insinuations (like zerg-players are mindless sheeps, having barely the skills to press the "one"-button).

    I really (still) have hope, for wvw to become to be more fair, and more enjoyable for everyone.... people can dream.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2020

    @Jeran.6850 said:
    By the way, this was the most interresting read of all topics made up since the first "no downstate"-event.
    Both of you, Lan Deathrider.5910 and TheGrimm.5624, expressed yourselfs very well, and even though i dont agree in everything...
    well, let me say: thank you, for not falling back into stupid insinuations (like zerg-players are mindless sheeps, having barely the skills to press the "one"-button).

    I really (still) have hope, for wvw to become to be more fair, and more enjoyable for everyone.... people can dream.

    @""user"" btw will link to someone and they will get notified. @Jeran.6850 for instance. If you are unsure how to do that then look up when you quote someone and it does it at the first line.

    Downstate in its current form does not work well in WvW, hence the negative feelings that get posted. No downstate is the easiest fix, they're able to disable it for an event so they are able to disable it. Reworking the whole system would take more time and resources that I think most players would feel is better sent elsewhere.

    That said, I do feel that if it is kept then downstate HP needs to be lower, down skills need a full rework, and the number of rezzers needs to be reduced to a single person.

  • Jeran.6850Jeran.6850 Member ✭✭

    And that is where i have to disagee (but thank you about your advise about the "quote" function -and i realy mean it :) ):
    in this state of the game, it should not happen what seems to be the easiest solution. Obviosly, people that do care about the gamemode are still here....but its an almost impossible task to find a middle ground solution, both from player side, and from developer side.
    I really fear the consequences of gw2 wvw without the downstate...and that is a fear on several levels of "balance", that i dont even know how to begin to talk about.

    As an example: if the downstate will be removed (because its the easiest to implement solution), what will happen to stealth stacking as a consequence? Will it be like with superspeed, where every "new" application of superspeed, even if its lower duration, overwriting what you have before?
    Because something like that HAVE to happen to stealth abilities, if the downstate will be removed at all.

    I really think where on a good road of balance right now, there are a lot of possibilties to enjoy the gamemode:from roaming, small-scale to large scale. We should not want that to be destroyed with unforseeable consequences. Its not perfect, but we are in the best state since introduction of pof. Lets not destroy everything, just for "a change".

  • Jeran.6850Jeran.6850 Member ✭✭

    Sorry for being emotional ;)

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jeran.6850 said:
    Sorry for being emotional ;)

    Emotional and open to discuss is quite different. All good and good feedback.

    Your thoughts on base HP have merit, a downed player is half way out so do they still deserve that extra health they would if not-downed. I don't mind people having more if they have more vitality but the bolstered system of x times their normal not so much. I believe that extra multiple was meant to help in larger fights but it doesn't translate well when both sides aren't on equal numbers so any adjustment there would be something to at least play test.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Change it. (Could include: [...] downstate removal)

    ^

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Remove Rally completely and cap the ress speed to 1 person only.
    Poisons have 100% more effectiveness on downed players.

    If you are in an area range of 600 of a downed state ally you receive a -50% reduction to all stats.

    People asking for downed state buff are clearly carried noobs by big numbers.

    Downed state is a clutch mechanic which carries bad players and big numbers over skill.

    This way people will decide if commit to a ress or not especially in small groups fights or decide to leave the downed go back to spawn.

    It is a war zone and if you get downed you don't deserve that many chances to Rally to get speed ressed in half a second, if you are downed you should become a weakness to your group, it was your fault, bad build, bad positioning, less skill than enemy, so why you should have an easy second chance?

    Change my mind.

  • Piedplat.3597Piedplat.3597 Member ✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    At least just remove rally on death and replace it with a pourcentage of heal on a death.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    If you are in an area range of 600 of a downed state ally you receive a -50% reduction to all stats.

    Yes, please allow me to strip all my armor and walk into GvG fights.

    Some ideas are good, but others are just so brilliant they outshine the sun.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Samug.6512Samug.6512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    Maybe introducing some skills that deal increased damage to downed players could work, and spread them around to various specs. Right now I think only Reaper has the Gravedigger that benefits from hitting downed enemies. Adding skills that deal eg 25% more dmg to downed to berserker or druid could potentially open a slot or 2 for them in the squads.

    And nerf ranger downed skills. This kitten is broken beyond believe.

    [NUKE]

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Samug.6512 said:
    Maybe introducing some skills that deal increased damage to downed players could work, and spread them around to various specs. Right now I think only Reaper has the Gravedigger that benefits from hitting downed enemies. Adding skills that deal eg 25% more dmg to downed to berserker or druid could potentially open a slot or 2 for them in the squads.

    And nerf ranger downed skills. This kitten is broken beyond believe.

    And maybe we are looking at a WvW/PvP split from PvE. Different downstate abilities looks good on paper but when it comes to playing them.....

    Necro and Ranger are strong, Ele and mist form can outright save you if you are near a door and Warrior can give you revenge before you still die. Engi...sure that's what I want, pull the person to me so they can spike me faster. Mez, you know not to spike the first one after invis, thief somewhat the same with Guard and Rev somewhere in the middle. I could see having a fixed set of abilities for all even if I ask for more build diversity while not downed.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    @whoknocks.4935 said:

    It is a war zone and if you get downed you don't deserve that many chances to Rally to get speed ressed in half a second, if you are downed you should become a weakness to your group, it was your fault, bad build, bad positioning, less skill than enemy, so why you should have an easy second chance?

    Change my mind.

    I am not a fan of zerg play but this might a bit far. I think just removing some of the HP and some of the other changes might do. In an ideal world we want people to have to have that moment where they stop and think, do I get them up and risk getting downed myself. Right now all we have is we can power rez them or we can get them up after the other side is defeated.There is no price to pay if an ally is defeated and you still win. Making that decision be more impactful to post-fight I think would add more strategic play, today it's just heroics. At times today I stupidly jump in a try and rez downed people when I shouldn't because I don't like to lose people but it doesn't serve a purpose since if my side wins people will be brought back up anyway. Hence my more extreme line of having people not being able to be revived once defeated to force that run back and add more impact of being defeated over just downed. Putting people into rez mode while they have downed around them, to me, adds more strategic play into combat since it makes somebody actively decide do I keep attacking or get my ally back up.

    I would be ok with the health pool if the non-revive of defeated was in place, but it isn't. And since I think more of the community is against the the non-revive as well I would lean towards the lessened health pool. But both in play...again to me, it's a numbers game with both elements in play.

    Again full disclosure: mostly posting from the roamer/havoc with a sprinkling of warband/zerg perspective and yes one of those idiots that will attack more people then they should point of view.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Piedplat.3597 said:
    At least just remove rally on death and replace it with a pourcentage of heal on a death.

    That's also an interesting thought. Have to think on that one considering numbers. Opens the door to other ideas like WvW traits as well. But still falls under changes.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    Complete removal of either downstate or rally, or both, isn't the solution. I will admit that I would very much prefer that they do this and entirely rework the revive mechanics in the game, but that is not a realistic expectation to have nor is it likely even in the slightest bit to happen. ANet will unfortunately stick to their guns on this mechanic, too bad they don't do that for the actual content in the game but that isn't the discussion we are having.

    Ultimately there needs to be a solution that compromises with both trains of thought.

    For many downstate and rally are a crutch and it gets in the way of healthy PvP due to how it functions; too much health, some classes have far more effective downstate skills than others, and revive speed is ludicrously fast when there are only 2 players present reviving someone. Also for many downstate and rally are important team play mechanics and are vitally important for cooperative play in PvP, it allows for them to get their teammates back into the fight and potentially pull out a clutch win.

    Both points of view have merit, but both points of view need to recognize the other.

    Downstate and rally need to be looked at more, but removing them is not the solution.

    • Downstate health needs to be reduced, ideally "normalized" to a, probably, standard 20,000 health up to 25,000 health max. Meaning every class has this same amount of health while downed, not some random variety of health within that range. That way all classes, when downed, have an equal amount of health. This would make them tanky enough to survive cleave or general damage but also the health is not so high that, with damage as it is right now, it takes forever to try and secure a kill on that player if they even do so.
    • Downstate skills need to be "normalized" as well, each class can have their own unique flavor to these skills but they should be specifically limited to; 1. Bandage 2. Attack Skill (damage should not scale that high) 3. Class flavored mobility skill. Nothing beyond this, nothing "unique" or "special" that sets the class apart from others. You are downed, meaning you are mostly out of the fight, you should not be able to contribute in a hugely significant way to the ongoing fight while downed and also "class identity" should be irrelevant at that point because you are downed. (As a side note, the basic down attack skills have power coefficients that range from 0.25 to 4.5, which is Life Leech on Necro, and this is just odd. Those need to be brought to a "normalized" level as well).
    • Revive needs to be limited to one player. One. Not two, not three, one. Anything more than that and revive speed becomes ridiculous. Seriously, even just having two players revive one player and they are up almost instantly. Trying to revive a teammate should be a calculated risk, not a casual aspect of gameplay for PvP. The same goes for rallying 1:1, or 1 for 1. One player killed, one player gets up (assuming they tagged them with damage). That is how this worked in GW1 PvP, each player would bring along a res signet, and if a teammate went down they would have to use that limited res signet, which entails a degree of risk because not only did you have a limited amount of them (it could be recharged with Morale Boost only), but it also had a 3 second cast time. Ritualist added another widely used Resurrection skill, Death Pact Signet, but even that had an element of risk involved with it because for 2 minutes if that ally died again then the one who cast Death Pact Signet also died, it also had a 4 second cast time.

    Downstate and rally do not need to be removed, but keeping them the way they function right now is still not healthy for PvP modes.

  • Limodriver.4106Limodriver.4106 Member ✭✭✭

    remove it but we need a new way to tag ppl for bags.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Surely the only reason downed state hasn't been removed from the game over the past 8 years was because not enough forum threads were asking for it.

    Please keep asking though. I'm sure the devs working from home would appreciate a laugh, and give them something else to read besides r/Funny.

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    If you are in an area range of 600 of a downed state ally you receive a -50% reduction to all stats.

    Yes, please allow me to strip all my armor and walk into GvG fights.

    Some ideas are good, but others are just so brilliant they outshine the sun.

    It won't stack. If there is a downed ally on the map and you go in a 600 range to him (probably to ress him) you receive a debuff of 50% to all stats, so you decide if it's worth to commit for the ress if nobody is around or let him bleed to death.

    As I said, if you get downed it's because you got focused, or you are bad or bad positioning or whatever happened.
    You shouldn't randomly rally just because you tagged someone, or you shouldn't be ress in half a second just because 25 people commit to ress you, that's why cap the ress speed to 1 person only, only 1 person can ress.

    And I didn't say remove downed state completely because it's a core mechanic of the game, but in its current state it just carries big numbers over skill and so should be toned down and adjusted.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @whoknocks.4935 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    If you are in an area range of 600 of a downed state ally you receive a -50% reduction to all stats.

    Yes, please allow me to strip all my armor and walk into GvG fights.

    Some ideas are good, but others are just so brilliant they outshine the sun.

    It won't stack. If there is a downed ally on the map and you go in a 600 range to him (probably to ress him) you receive a debuff of 50% to all stats, so you decide if it's worth to commit for the ress if nobody is around or let him bleed to death.

    As I said, if you get downed it's because you got focused, or you are bad or bad positioning or whatever happened.
    You shouldn't randomly rally just because you tagged someone, or you shouldn't be ress in half a second just because 25 people commit to ress you, that's why cap the ress speed to 1 person only, only 1 person can ress.

    And I didn't say remove downed state completely because it's a core mechanic of the game, but in its current state it just carries big numbers over skill and so should be toned down and adjusted.

    Nothing in here change the fact that aside from normal rallying, this could easily be used to grief guilds by running in and debuffing everyone stacked within 600 radius by intentionally going down. I also recommend using an ele or a thief so that if the guild moves, you can just teleport into them.

    Oh and you could also use a blood necro to teleport in downed people into the guild.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    Keep downstate
    Remove Rally
    Remove rubing full dead player, fully dead player need to respawn, ot some Rez racial skill that takes 6sec-10sec to rez and roots caster.
    Super mega ultra mega nerf on rubing downed ally healing output.
    Give some elite spec ability to rez downed target on a long CD, note we already elite banner warrior.
    Downstate should be the timing or last change for a player to be rezed back to combat, still skills should be taken to help.

    Buy more finishers due more downstated players :}

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just leave it but remove rally. If the zerg had to decide between keeping their numbers up by rezzing or keeping the DPS up by keeping fighting, that would go a long way.

    No roamer or havoc party is going to come back from a downstate anyway against any half competent zerg.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    Keep downstate
    Remove Rally
    Remove rubing full dead player, fully dead player need to respawn, ot some Rez racial skill that takes 6sec-10sec to rez and roots caster.
    Super mega ultra mega nerf on rubing downed ally healing output.
    Give some elite spec ability to rez downed target on a long CD, note we already elite banner warrior.
    Downstate should be the timing or last change for a player to be rezed back to combat, still skills should be taken to help.

    Buy more finishers due more downstated players :}

    Again, the defeated side has to come back from spawn, why not the defeated from the "winning" side. And if that "win" loses half your people you will need to re-adjust your plans or don't let that many get converted from downed to defeated. This does give roamers and havocs more incentive to attack a zerg or try to slow it down at an objective you know you can't hold since maybe you could peal a few more of them off their group making them more attack able.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Remove whole kitten. So lame mechanic. :s

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jeran.6850 said:

    I really think where on a good road of balance right now, there are a lot of possibilties to enjoy the gamemode:from roaming, small-scale to large scale. We should not want that to be destroyed with unforseeable consequences. Its not perfect, but we are in the best state since introduction of pof. Lets not destroy everything, just for "a change".

    1. I think the balance in this game is hot-garbage and honestly is a waste of time. Classes I used to enjoy, not because they could body people with no effort but because I could play how I Wanted and still be viable. I dislike how the game feels right now, which is why I only get on durring the friday reset and if the expansion doesn't do it then I think im on my way out the door. Im over this stupid argument of "BuT BaLaNcE REEEEEE" When in reality most of the time people just want X class removed from play, completely and irrevocably. So I feel the player base is the worst place to seek what balance is and its clear that maybe the dev's themselves are not quite sure what it actually means in context of the game.
    2. They need to just remove the warclaw and let it have use elsewhere, its garbo now. No point in its existence in any way, shape or form as it was only used to counter downstate prior to its utter murder.
    3. Downstate should not exist in competitive play period, its not allowed in raids which is as competitive PvE as you can get or as close to it as one could claim the game to have (Neither do strike missions.) PvP and WvW should be treated as such, if you go down then you are dead and need to re-spawn as that would really yes make the mode harder to play but it would also prevent zergs from just doing as they have been. Downstate only benefits the side with the heavier count of heads, if you dont have a lot of people then it will play against you and make it kitten near impossible to do anything about the larger force. Warclaw actually prevented this.
  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    3. Downstate should not exist in competitive play period

    This is pretty amusing since many far, far larger competetive games have some kind of downstate. Because over the years, thats proven to be an excellent addition to teamplay and today is a defacto indusrtry standard and expected functionality.

    As others note about rallying, I do consider it an acceptable compromise to remove it, especially if it satiate the whining cries of remove downstate people. Its a fairly simple to understand rule difference compared to PvE and it actually encourage better play by healing downed people as they never rally (combine with 1:1 principle of healing and it also encourage players to choose the "best" healer, or you may waste it).

    But I dont think it will. They will still cry remove it. And when its removed, they meet a bunker and cry remove them they have no place in competetive play. And then when they meet people going thief cause they cant bunker, they cry remove them they have no place in competetive play. Then when they meet mesmers because thieves was deleted, they cry remove dodging completely because it has no place in competetive play.

    Some people just want all of us to fight naked with a wooden stick while stationary because thats the only fair and balanced fight left.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    3. Downstate should not exist in competitive play period

    This is pretty amusing since many far, far larger competetive games have some kind of downstate. Because over the years, thats proven to be an excellent addition to teamplay and today is a defacto indusrtry standard and expected functionality.

    As others note about rallying, I do consider it an acceptable compromise to remove it, especially if it satiate the whining cries of remove downstate people. Its a fairly simple to understand rule difference compared to PvE and it actually encourage better play by healing downed people as they never rally (combine with 1:1 principle of healing and it also encourage players to choose the "best" healer, or you may waste it).

    But I dont think it will. They will still cry remove it. And when its removed, they meet a bunker and cry remove them they have no place in competitive play. And then when they meet people going thief cause they cant bunker, they cry remove them they have no place in competitive play. Then when they meet mesmers because thieves was deleted, they cry remove dodging completely because it has no place in competitive play.

    Some people just want all of us to fight naked with a wooden stick while stationary because thats the only fair and balanced fight left.

    1. Whining and wanting classes and builds, as well anything you listed has been deemed unacceptable and bashed on. People have been screaming about that stuff just as much if not more, so don't act like for a second the removal would change anything. It's just one thing off the list, and one of the at the very least semi-resonable ones.

    2. There are better ways to handle it true, removing it would be a shame as it is a feature that COULD be worked with. But at this stage I don't trust A-net to do one single thing right and I sure as heck don't believe they could balance it.

    3. Those other competitive games that are "Far larger" must not of been as large as you claim. The only ones that come to mind are FPS's, and those aren't even that large. MOBA's such as smite and leauge lack the feature, WoW lacks the feature and now that I really come to think about it Im pretty sure MOST large and successful games in the competitive scene don't have this. So I feel your point is mute, make it a Resurrection type deal... not a down state.

    4. Raids and Strikes lack the feature, its proven it can be prohibited from being used. And it is in those modes. So are argument falls flat on its face considering their main focus is PvE specifically the open world maps. That is the ONLY place where I feel (Maybe fractals too) that this feature is completely justifiable and can and has worked and should continue to be allowed, If raids and by proxy strikes don't need it and they "Are" the competitive PvE scene... then the real competitive modes should be treated much the same.

    5. I fail to see how it makes any tactical change, Its really just swarm the enemy. Thats what WvW has devolved into over the past few months is literally just zerg with all of the mass and bring the opposition down when said mass hits its peak in "Critical-mass". There is hardly any tactics anymore its the same shtick with stealth portal bombs, and it has and will CONTINUE to be this UNTIL new E-specs emerge because lets be real.... unless they rework classes from the ground up the same overlying issues we have been facing will continue.

    6. As I stated in my first point (Want to drive it home more in detail here.) The complaints of classes and what classes specifically are targeted has been going on FOR YEARS, and has even managed to get things changed. There is CLEAR favoritism in the balance room and honestly the fact you even try to use this as a straw-man, despite knowing the two are not mutually exclusive to one another is disingenuous to the whole issue. You know why bunkers are complained about so often? Its not because you can't kill them, its that they prevent you from killing ANYTHING by existing, because downstate means they can basically keep you away from the finish. You come upon a 1 v 2 scenario and go head to head with them, the first one who engaged is tanky and will not die and you know this full on. But the second one you come to find is much more malleable to your pressure and so you target them and ignore the bunker. You down him and ooh, yikes you got cc'd and now are facing almost permanent lock-down or you've been stalled long enough for back up to arrive. And because of downstate you can't even guarantee the kill and thus get NOTHING for the fight, you get NOTHING. You get no reward even though you felled one of them, and the other was running the gimmicks that work on a class of gimmicks with a build based around enhancing said gimmicks. You SHOULD not have to worry about them ccing you away from the enemy once they've been downed, they should be dead and this does encourage better play because mistakes, will be actually costly. Even with CC-breaks there are classes out there who will cc you right into oblivion regardless, even with support this can happen. Bunkers, healers, and classes with gimmicks (Messmer, thief, guardian, perma-cc druid) will ALWAYS be complained about REGARDLESS of if downstate is here or not as they are just not fun to fight a lot of the times. But that... well that comes down to some design failures..... nothing we can do about it.

  • VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    @Solanum.6983 said:
    I don't think it should be removed, I like the mechanic It keeps things interesting.
    Some of the classes have a way better time in downstate which I wish they would look at like Ele's vapor form going into doors for one example but My main problem with it is in a big group it's just too easy to ress anyone who goes down, Maybe a reduction in the health pool some more would help.

    well, sure, take away ele vapor form. But then give us 50% more hp and make our ranged skills hit at 1600 like rangers, give us stealth and give lighting flash 1200 range.

    You know, to offset all the parts where eles are massively lacking behind.

    Ever wondered why wvw is filled with revs, necros, thieves and rangers?

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    3. Downstate should not exist in competitive play period

    This is pretty amusing since many far, far larger competetive games have some kind of downstate. Because over the years, thats proven to be an excellent addition to teamplay and today is a defacto indusrtry standard and expected functionality.

    its nothing new in game actually :) and reason why some skills help players getting revived from downstate, kinda feel a hybrid system from gw1 and gw2.

    But rally effect.... i have many doubts on it if should removed or stay... i would say remove it, but dunno how would affect some part of the gameplay.

  • Solanum.6983Solanum.6983 Member ✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Solanum.6983 said:
    I don't think it should be removed, I like the mechanic It keeps things interesting.
    Some of the classes have a way better time in downstate which I wish they would look at like Ele's vapor form going into doors for one example but My main problem with it is in a big group it's just too easy to ress anyone who goes down, Maybe a reduction in the health pool some more would help.

    well, sure, take away ele vapor form. But then give us 50% more hp and make our ranged skills hit at 1600 like rangers, give us stealth and give lighting flash 1200 range.

    You know, to offset all the parts where eles are massively lacking behind.

    Ever wondered why wvw is filled with revs, necros, thieves and rangers?

    It was one example, I'm not saying to nerf just that alone. Ideally everyone's downstate would be on par with one another.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is strength in the downed and defeated mechanic. Play and counter play and having people need to make decisions only makes the game play more action orientated. I am actually fine with things like the runes of revival since it's a price to pay in other boosts if you equip and run them. A player running them means they may be doing less damage or not getting a boost to their condi durations or maybe foregoing self-defenses. That's a trade off. Stopping to "rub" up a downed so they don't become defeated has a price in you are a sitting duck.

    Post fight revival = no price, no risk, no trade off. Sure you are standing still for a few seconds but the combat is over, there is no risk, you could be spending that same time cleaning your bags. Other games that had WvW style play also used mechanics that rezzed people but they had their risks and long cooldowns. So as mentioned in the other threads some different abilities that are post-fight might hold weight, but they would need long cooldowns.

    Again though, ANet has the ability to alter rules for a short bit, so let's try some changes using that option for temp rules. But if it's done, make sure it's put out there in advance so that non-forums goers aren't blindsided and so that you might get additional feedback. You don't want to acquire additional posters just because you broke something that a player playing and not-forum-waring was out there enjoying enough they didn't feel the need to pop in here and see what mischief was about.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC