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Some thoughts about Jormag rising trailer

hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited July 15, 2020 in Lore

I'm a little disturbed by the scene starting at 0:30: With the whatever machine, converter or portal.
I always viewed charr as capable of using steam, heat or mechanics but I never considered being able to use electricity. I mean, if they were, they would basically have laser guns, phaser rifles or well, electric torches. The recent episode of drizzlewood included things like propaganda speakers, or electro-magnetic pulse charges, even remote bombs. So conceding that charr now about electricity, making emitter or wireless antennas. Even the recent vision of the past included a radio in the tank.

But I dunno why, it feels off. In grothmar, the metal legion had amps, but it was explained by the asura technician. Also the spy devices were surely made my separatists or renegades and so possible stolen technologies. But for charrs, core tyria charr, I always considered they were just able to use steam, gears and wires to make engines, pumps or metal siege engines but nothing more. The airship as example, it moves and float only thanks to the asura repulsors and turbine at the back of the airship.

The trailer, now assume that, charr know how to manipulate draconic essences, which is an aberration, the device is high tech and highly remind me the clockheart containment cell in aetherpath or the ones used by aetherblade in general. I highly doubt there is any asura there (Well possible Inquest to study Jormag (think of test bed zeleph for zhaithan, base in dragon stand or sandswept)), also I highly doubt there were an aetherblade base here. It even have some holographic part in it.... If you pay attention, it even have some holo-ball generators around.

Sure, they introduced in the third episode, a secret facility developing new weapons, "never saw before" but I highly doubt that Jormag has any knowledge into technologies, and even how to extract its own essence! Plus, I don't imagine sons of svanir being created in a "lab" passing through a gate! Can't those charr convert themselves by performing a group ritual? They obviously met sons of svanir, why not asking them? Jormag have in its army in majority, Norn and Charr, with some kodans. Through kodans have respectable knowledge I doubt they have very strong abilities into telling how again, to play with essences. The process of worshipping is too slow? I can get it if jormag capture a random asura knowing about all of that, but i really feel this is a very stretched hypothesis, and that having an essence infuser is kinda a joke. it's either, you modernize everything, or nothing. I never saw again, even recently, charr equipped with a tazer chestplate, throwing sparks arks or whatever (haha, btw that description would be aetherblade). Well apart EMG and remote charge, but I still wonder how they know about that. In core story, I get the remote things, because it is a coalition of races and so no doubt an human could have come showing how to make detonator. through, note that the tonn story or the one to destroy a risen tower included both an asura, in charge of the detonation.

But if anybody can affirm that charr, since core, know about electricity and how to use it, I'm very interested. Even streetlamps in Black citadel are flames.

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  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @hugo.4705 said:
    Also the spy devices were surely made my separatists or renegades and so possible stolen technologies.

    I fail to see why you think this, when they're very clearly utilized and planted by the Ash legion (only Blood charr PCs wouldn't be exposed to this dialogue). If the charr didn't create these, then they likely originate from the asura's own monitoring devices we can see in specific core hearts, as that's the closest thing we really get for these kinds of things.

    But for charrs, core tyria charr, I always considered they were just able to use steam, gears and wires to make engines, pumps or metal siege engines but nothing more.

    Wires = electricity though?

    Firstly, thanks for your really detailed explanations.
    I wanted to return on those two points, because I think I haven't gave enough details to make it clear.

    EDIT: For the devices, was blood legion so missed the dialogue. But yeah checked wiki too, they are ash devices.

    Secondly, for wires, I meant if fact tubes and conduits using steam or combustion for making war machines or simple empty iron tubes for plating or linking things together. Even in the ash hidden base of grothmar, they use a djinn stone, or let's say ley line stone to power the facility.

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  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hugo.4705 said:
    I'm a little disturbed by the scene starting at 0:30: With the whatever machine, converter or portal.
    I always viewed charr as capable of using steam, heat or mechanics but I never considered being able to use electricity.

    I don't see electricity, I see ice.

    I think the trailer also shows us a Bangar that is converted into Icebrood (Frost Legion). Perhaps that's the contraption they use for it?

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2020

    @Ashantara.8731 My first post right of the picture.
    It's a faraday cage.

    https://www.defendershield.com/faraday-cages-what-they-are-how-they-block-emf-radiation/

    There is two big columns with electric rings at top plus two small ball generators at the bottom corners of the picture. The subject is struck by a lightning or a mutagenic essence charged laser.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2020

    @hugo.4705 said:
    For the devices, It was implied in grothmar in an achiev tied to an npc in the blood fortress. "Eye for ears" and the dialogue says malice doesn't know about the devices.There were a mission to locate them and to turn them off. Maybe ash, but I don't remember it was their, more a trial to acces their hidden base. I'm blood legion, may have not access to a specific dialogue. Mission were given by a blood legion.

    Like I said, if you're Blood, then you're not told they're from Ash. Ferox Keenaxe only talks to Blood Legion charr. If you're not Blood charr, then you have to talk to Iovis Nearspecter who state he was responsible for placing those devices in order to monitor for Renegade movement.

    Secondly, for wires, I meant if fact tubes and conduits using steam or combustion for making war machines or simple empty iron tubes for plating or linking things together. Even in the ash hidden base of grothmar, they use a djinn stone, or let's say ley line stone to power the facility.

    The djinn crystal isn't there to power the facility, it's - as Marjory points out - a cautionary measure against what was formerly nearby Kralkatorrik corruption - and they're keeping it in case of Aurene's branding becoming hostile.

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  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2020

    Yeah just figured out, I forgot to re-edit my former answer (now edited), the devices are from ash. Thnaks for the info from Marjory, I think the recon cove is the only place where I haven't listened to all dialogues. But so it works with electricity. There is even a laser training parkour.

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  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    That machine opens some interesting plot directions. Bangar could be siphoning draconic energy without Jormag's consent. Banagar didn't walk as though he was a subordinate.

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2020

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    That machine opens some interesting plot directions. Bangar could be siphoning draconic energy without Jormag's consent. Banagar didn't walk as though he was a subordinate.

    That, or Jormag has seen the usefulness of minions that can think on their own after the great success of Pact Commander and Aurene, and the loss of the previous three dragons.

    This is probably similar to Aurene's "Branding" of Caithe, where Aruene asked, Caithe allowed it to happen, and it allowed her to "corrupt" another dragon minion, despite that typically not being possible directly. Caithe still keeps her free will and all that, but is still connected to Aurene. Jormag has always done something similar, using promises of power to "corrupt" living beings into accepting it willingly, without just outright Icebrooding them directly.

    Given that Jormag has been manipulating Bangar from the beginning, its safe to assume Jormag isn't having its power taken unwillingly, or at least, it isn't truly unwilling, even if Bangar thinks it is.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    I think there's multiple types of electricity in Tyria, actually. In the real world, its the same--although we think of "electricity" as just just applied electrical power, it comes from many, many different sources including light and heat

    All you need is an appropriate converter, to harness the energy and turn it into electrical power.

    Its the same in Tyria, I think. The Asura seem to generate electricity via magic, which gives their technology its magitech feel. The Charr definitely do have electrity, we even see electrical weapons (the Engineer and Scrapper are a Charr class) and light fixtures. The Human Gods even used electricity to power the light globes throughout Dwayna's Temple and the City of Arah.

    We also see many, many references to magnets, and electromagnetism.

    You may think, "none of that is electricity". But electricity is a fundamental concept of physics, and exists naturally in nature and in Tyria, even as elementals. As I've said earlier, that can come from many different sources in our world, and in Tyria as well.

    Btw, the most basic form of electrical power conversion is generators built using steam turbines.

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  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    Recently, I saw Kossage who gave a thought about that on reddit, he noticed that:
    1-Unknown person damaged brand stompers to attract branded in grothmar. And Vetia spotted an asura giving aid.
    2-Researcher Dwidd in grothmar spoke about harnessing aurene power and about using it.
    3-The machine reminded him the subversion machines shooting draconic essence in crucible of eternity. Also, the machine has ice on it, like she were here since an expedition, before bangar arrived.

    Those 3 things are inderectly linked to draconic energies. Maybe hinted by writers since the start of the saga. I just find it suspicious too, but curious about the explanation that would be given in game.

    Here is a very wild explanation for how the machine works imho:
    -Jormag corruptive essences are firstly dispensed from above, then they turn on the two big static electricity donut generator.
    -The electric arcs naturally aim to the center of the structure which is essentially metal and charge itself with the essences.
    -The Subject is struck by the very high voltage bolt and instantly die.
    -But due to the essence, it is imediately turned into icebrood.

    That's why Bangar isn't converted at the end of the cinematic, he doesn't want to be killed by the machine. And use soldiers to check if it works. I'm in no way saying there is alive inquest, but maybe they had a little facility, rapidly overrun and got decimated. The charr fortress could have been built later, over that.

    I'm very surprised that Gorrik doesn't have a bounty over its head. In personal story, for messing with them we had a whole assassination team after us and engineer ready to blow up the whole cliff over the rata sum home instance. Somebody will recover Gorik one day or another. To cite a writer:

    "Scott McGough: The Inquest doesn't like its members to leave, and they have taken extreme steps to punish or reclaim those who try. They're especially tough on those who try to get out if those people have valuable or incriminating information the Inquest wants to keep to themselves. "

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  • Obliviscaris.6937Obliviscaris.6937 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    That machine opens some interesting plot directions. Bangar could be siphoning draconic energy without Jormag's consent. Banagar didn't walk as though he was a subordinate.

    That, or Jormag has seen the usefulness of minions that can think on their own after the great success of Pact Commander and Aurene, and the loss of the previous three dragons.

    This is probably similar to Aurene's "Branding" of Caithe, where Aruene asked, Caithe allowed it to happen, and it allowed her to "corrupt" another dragon minion, despite that typically not being possible directly. Caithe still keeps her free will and all that, but is still connected to Aurene. Jormag has always done something similar, using promises of power to "corrupt" living beings into accepting it willingly, without just outright Icebrooding them directly.

    Given that Jormag has been manipulating Bangar from the beginning, its safe to assume Jormag isn't having its power taken unwillingly, or at least, it isn't truly unwilling, even if Bangar thinks it is.

    This is precisely what (aside from Jormag's voice) has made me really enjoy Jormag as not only as an elder dragon, but a character. She's **completely ** flipped any preconceived ideas I had about dragons on it's head. It's further torn to shreds by Aesgier's diary 'A Burden'. The characterization of Jormag is nothing beyond stellar. Interactions with previous dragons have felt pretty empty. It's such a refreshing change.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2020

    @Obliviscaris.6937 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    That machine opens some interesting plot directions. Bangar could be siphoning draconic energy without Jormag's consent. Banagar didn't walk as though he was a subordinate.

    That, or Jormag has seen the usefulness of minions that can think on their own after the great success of Pact Commander and Aurene, and the loss of the previous three dragons.

    This is probably similar to Aurene's "Branding" of Caithe, where Aruene asked, Caithe allowed it to happen, and it allowed her to "corrupt" another dragon minion, despite that typically not being possible directly. Caithe still keeps her free will and all that, but is still connected to Aurene. Jormag has always done something similar, using promises of power to "corrupt" living beings into accepting it willingly, without just outright Icebrooding them directly.

    Given that Jormag has been manipulating Bangar from the beginning, its safe to assume Jormag isn't having its power taken unwillingly, or at least, it isn't truly unwilling, even if Bangar thinks it is.

    This is precisely what (aside from Jormag's voice) has made me really enjoy Jormag as not only as an elder dragon, but a character. She's **completely ** flipped any preconceived ideas I had about dragons on it's head. It's further torn to shreds by Aesgier's diary 'A Burden'. The characterization of Jormag is nothing beyond stellar. Interactions with previous dragons have felt pretty empty. It's such a refreshing change.

    This may have to do with the fact that previous Elder Dragons have all had some insane advantage, which likely made them unhinged.

    Zhaitan literally made its home base in the Ruined City of Arah, not only one of the most significant ley line hubs in the world, but also former home to the Human Gods. It also started out with an army of thousands, if not millions, due to the sinking of Orr, including getting powerful leuitenants for free. Despite this, Zhaitan was still so hungry that it saught out magical artifacts to gain even more power, and tried to conquer the nearby lands despite not even needing to, which ultimately lead to its downfall as it overestimated itself, and underestimated the Pact.

    Zhaitan was essentially a kid born with a silver spoon in its mouth; it was spoiled.

    Mordremoth had alot of the same things going on. It was based upon a major ley line hub and had an incredible proximity to Rata Sum and The Grove, which it was migrating towards from SCAR Lane, through an area that hasn't yet been added to the game. Its ability to spread underground gave it an unfair advantage over all the other Elder Dragons, since it had a virtually unlimited reach, which made it overextend. It also had another free army in the form of Sylvari, who weren't supposed to be awakened until it was, but had 25 years of development to "ripen them up for the taking". And this isn't taking into account variables like inheriting Zhaitan's power, which seemed to bring along some of the same personality traits e.g, seeking out magical artifacts, despite already having a near-infinite source of power. Again, this lead to overconfidence, especially in its own mental abilities and role in Tyria.

    Like Zhaitan, Modremoth was spoiled beyond belief. The one fork in its entire plan was that the same advantage it had--Sylvari having been existing prior to its uprising, lead to some of them being resistant against its call, leading to its downfall.

    Kralkatorrik is the most extreme example, combining all the flaws of Zhaitan, Modremoth, and Balthazar. I'd need an entire page to describe what went wrong with it, but needless to say, its a wonder we had an spoken audience at all, what was left of it by the end. Kralkatorrik essentially became corruption itself. Not only were its minions corrupted, but Kralk itself was corrupted to the very core.

    Compared to all of this, Jormag is alot more "pure". It seems to have none of these advantages that we know of. Its had to fight the hard fight just to stay in the Elder Dragon game, hence the serious limitations like the reach on its domain, minions and influence. On top of this, having its magic sapped by Balthazar means its the most vulnerable an Elder Dragon has ever been; a team like Destiny's Edge or Dragon's Watch could likely kill it at this stage. It knows that if it makes a mistake, and doesn't play all its cards right, its game over, goodnight.

    "But we wouldn't do that, because the world would be destroyed". Dragons aren't all-knowning, they only know what their minions know, and Jormag has no way of knowing that we don't have some kind of backup plan.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hugo.4705 said:
    Here is a very wild explanation for how the machine works imho:
    -Jormag corruptive essences are firstly dispensed from above, then they turn on the two big static electricity donut generator.
    -The electric arcs naturally aim to the center of the structure which is essentially metal and charge itself with the essences.
    -The Subject is struck by the very high voltage bolt and instantly die.
    -But due to the essence, it is imediately turned into icebrood.

    I disagree on the death part, and I don't think there's actual electricity running through the charr exposed to Jormag's magic.

    On death: It's been established that Jormag is more careful and experimental with the powers from the other Elder Dragons compared to Primordus and Kralkatorrik. This is why we're not seeing dozens of plant/death-touched icebrood, but instead only saw the one Unstable Abomination and Drakkar being influenced by Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magics. Per retcon in Season 3, Elder Dragons other than Zhaitan can only corrupt corpses / make use of corpses by taking Zhaitan's death magic, as silly as it sounds (this being in counter to the quaggan personal story in recruiting Baroosh, where we see several "Sickly Quaggan"s die, then become Corrupted Quaggans after clear the room of Sons of Svanir and interact with the sole living Sickly Quaggan who turns while living). Regardless of the retcon (or any retcon to the retcon like Primordus' case), Jormag being very cautious and experimental would indicate that Jormag wouldn't suddenly just go for abusing the death magic it got from Zhaitan in large enough quantities to create the Frost Legion.

    On electricity: While it may appear as though there is an electrical current, I do not think there is - at least, not in the sense that we're familiar in talking about. It should be established that high concentrations of magic often appear to have static discharges - if you're in doubt, simply go to Drakkar Spurs in Frostgorge Sound and you will notice such electrical discharges around the corrupted ice, the highest concentration of Jormag's corruption in the core maps. Furthermore, while we do see two orbs generating what seems like electricity, it doesn't fluctuate at all as the device activates, indicating that they're not utilized in the conversion process. The beam does have a lightning-like arcing to it, but this is likely aesthetic choice to not have it a straight up pillar of magic. Having some minor arcing in any plasma-like discharges is fairly common aesthetics - perfect straightness is a rare thing, after all.

    For the reason why Bangar hasn't turned Icebrood (yet) I'm betting that it's simply because Bangar's not an idiot. He'd know corruption risks losing one's free will, and he's out to subjugate an Elder Dragon, not be subjugated by. Even if he's influenced by Jormag's whispers, if he's wise enough to realize Braham's bow won't be enough to make Jormag kneel, he isn't going to risk Jormag suddenly "playing nice" - if he is so willing to use the bow as a propaganda tool, why not his open proclamations of becoming Jormag's champion by slaying Drakkar (which, itself, is a bit of a lie and he knows it).

    Simply put, Bangar's probably still got enough of his sense of self to realize Jormag has no reason to perfectly play nice. Even if he does have illusions of grandeur. Heck, it wouldn't be far fetched to believe that the machine's purpose is to steal Jormag's magic, and we'll end up finding Jormag somehow chained down or otherwise restrained from while it slept (also wouldn't be far fetched to believe Jormag's letting itself be chained down in such a scenario, rather than actually being imprisoned).

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  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    Or Jormag is manipulating them, after promising strength and hopes to save its peoples; Jormag keeps corrupting ice to fuel the machine. (Corrupted Ice turned into dust, energized or whatever) after passing through the machines bangar troops are satisfied but Jormag too , having more troops. I suspect that Bangar saw how Varinia changed, and definitely does not want to be changed.
    The steel warband weren't corrupted too. Bangar indeed doesn't trust Jormag, and he refused icebrooding his close loved ones.

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  • Obliviscaris.6937Obliviscaris.6937 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @Obliviscaris.6937 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    That machine opens some interesting plot directions. Bangar could be siphoning draconic energy without Jormag's consent. Banagar didn't walk as though he was a subordinate.

    That, or Jormag has seen the usefulness of minions that can think on their own after the great success of Pact Commander and Aurene, and the loss of the previous three dragons.

    This is probably similar to Aurene's "Branding" of Caithe, where Aruene asked, Caithe allowed it to happen, and it allowed her to "corrupt" another dragon minion, despite that typically not being possible directly. Caithe still keeps her free will and all that, but is still connected to Aurene. Jormag has always done something similar, using promises of power to "corrupt" living beings into accepting it willingly, without just outright Icebrooding them directly.

    Given that Jormag has been manipulating Bangar from the beginning, its safe to assume Jormag isn't having its power taken unwillingly, or at least, it isn't truly unwilling, even if Bangar thinks it is.

    This is precisely what (aside from Jormag's voice) has made me really enjoy Jormag as not only as an elder dragon, but a character. She's **completely ** flipped any preconceived ideas I had about dragons on it's head. It's further torn to shreds by Aesgier's diary 'A Burden'. The characterization of Jormag is nothing beyond stellar. Interactions with previous dragons have felt pretty empty. It's such a refreshing change.

    This may have to do with the fact that previous Elder Dragons have all had some insane advantage, which likely made them unhinged.

    Zhaitan literally made its home base in the Ruined City of Arah, not only one of the most significant ley line hubs in the world, but also former home to the Human Gods. It also started out with an army of thousands, if not millions, due to the sinking of Orr, including getting powerful leuitenants for free. Despite this, Zhaitan was still so hungry that it saught out magical artifacts to gain even more power, and tried to conquer the nearby lands despite not even needing to, which ultimately lead to its downfall as it overestimated itself, and underestimated the Pact.

    Zhaitan was essentially a kid born with a silver spoon in its mouth; it was spoiled.

    Mordremoth had alot of the same things going on. It was based upon a major ley line hub and had an incredible proximity to Rata Sum and The Grove, which it was migrating towards from SCAR Lane, through an area that hasn't yet been added to the game. Its ability to spread underground gave it an unfair advantage over all the other Elder Dragons, since it had a virtually unlimited reach, which made it overextend. It also had another free army in the form of Sylvari, who weren't supposed to be awakened until it was, but had 25 years of development to "ripen them up for the taking". And this isn't taking into account variables like inheriting Zhaitan's power, which seemed to bring along some of the same personality traits e.g, seeking out magical artifacts, despite already having a near-infinite source of power. Again, this lead to overconfidence, especially in its own mental abilities and role in Tyria.

    Like Zhaitan, Modremoth was spoiled beyond belief. The one fork in its entire plan was that the same advantage it had--Sylvari having been existing prior to its uprising, lead to some of them being resistant against its call, leading to its downfall.

    Kralkatorrik is the most extreme example, combining all the flaws of Zhaitan, Modremoth, and Balthazar. I'd need an entire page to describe what went wrong with it, but needless to say, its a wonder we had an spoken audience at all, what was left of it by the end. Kralkatorrik essentially became corruption itself. Not only were its minions corrupted, but Kralk itself was corrupted to the very core.

    Compared to all of this, Jormag is alot more "pure". It seems to have none of these advantages that we know of. Its had to fight the hard fight just to stay in the Elder Dragon game, hence the serious limitations like the reach on its domain, minions and influence. On top of this, having its magic sapped by Balthazar means its the most vulnerable an Elder Dragon has ever been; a team like Destiny's Edge or Dragon's Watch could likely kill it at this stage. It knows that if it makes a mistake, and doesn't play all its cards right, its game over, goodnight.

    "But we wouldn't do that, because the world would be destroyed". Dragons aren't all-knowning, they only know what their minions know, and Jormag has no way of knowing that we don't have some kind of backup plan.

    I don't think their situation made them 'unhinged'. I don't think sanity in our definition applies 1:1 to Elder Dragons as we know it. I just think the very nature of Jormag is different at her core (I'm going to use this pronoun for all intents and purposes), and because of that the writers have a chance to have her become more fleshed out as an actual character. Mordremoth received this treatment EVER so slightly in the final moments of the game. I mean I believe every dragon does HAVE a personality at it's core, but they've had no reason to show it. Because as personalities they function differently. They get kitten done differently. And because of the way she gets things done, her characterizing herself works to her advantage, because it gets inside heads without them really truly realizing it (whereas Mordremoth was a bull in a fragile mental China shop).

    She's quite literally conscripting armies at this point. That's the scariest part; she's well and truly proved that she doesn't need to physically or even mentally corrupt, she's just that kitten good at her job. She quite literally did this to Aesgir, which resulted in the Norn building their culture around a big fat tooth shaped lie. That's insidious. That's kitten impressive. I mean she'd make a killer attorney. Or she'd run a really tight drug cartel.

    I just believe that Jormag works on a far more cerebral level and her ways of doing things are much more in line with what the most cunning of us would do in a comparative sense. In this way I'm very glad they've moved away from this pure 'force of nature' direction (likely because it just didn't have the 'wow' factor on players, and it reeeeeally didn't. But to call her purer? I don't know about purer, but she's more efficient, calculating, and she plays the long game. That's something to really be scared of.

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    On electricity: While it may appear as though there is an electrical current, I do not think there is - at least, not in the sense that we're familiar in talking about. It should be established that high concentrations of magic often appear to have static discharges - if you're in doubt, simply go to Drakkar Spurs in Frostgorge Sound and you will notice such electrical discharges around the corrupted ice, the highest concentration of Jormag's corruption in the core maps. Furthermore, while we do see two orbs generating what seems like electricity, it doesn't fluctuate at all as the device activates, indicating that they're not utilized in the conversion process. The beam does have a lightning-like arcing to it, but this is likely aesthetic choice to not have it a straight up pillar of magic. Having some minor arcing in any plasma-like discharges is fairly common aesthetics - perfect straightness is a rare thing, after all.

    New trailer with more shots about the machine
    I definitely think those two pillars are Tesla Coils amplificating electrical current.
    The room, since we now have a more global view of it, feature several pipes conducting what seems to be corrupted liquid ice / water. I definitely think, one more time that Bangar and its troops collect corrupted ice from Jormag to fuel the machine. And that somehow electricity discharge is required in the transformation process.
    My guess is that it was an oversight during the original trailer to not having electric arcs coming out of the two coil towers. I think in fact that the two little shining orbs are power storage. That trailer really shows the electricity is passing from a metal part to another without caring of the ice. But I still have no explanation for the lightning bolt at the middle apart a faraday cage concentrating the arcs generated by the tesla coils. Charr made? Will just say it is ingenious. I'm only bothered by the fact that the center of the device has ice, like somebody came in and added it on it...

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    @hugo.4705 said:
    New trailer with more shots about the machine
    I definitely think those two pillars are Tesla Coils amplificating electrical current.
    The room, since we now have a more global view of it, feature several pipes conducting what seems to be corrupted liquid ice / water. I definitely think, one more time that Bangar and its troops collect corrupted ice from Jormag to fuel the machine. And that somehow electricity discharge is required in the transformation process.

    On the bold: check again. Those are the same kind of "pipes" we see throughout Pact encampments. These are channeling energy which is meant to help repel dragon minions. Now that we can see more of the Frost Citadel, there's an interesting mixture of Pact and charr aesthetics, and most of the Pact stuff is in the form of those "pipes" channeling energy. The "shining orbs" you postulate as power storage is also Pact tech/aesthetics.

    I imagine that the Dominion had renovated the purpose of the tech from channeling dragon minion repellent magical energy, to channeling Jormag's magic to make it seem to the Icebrood that the fortress is "one of them" (similar method is used in Orr for a skritt to move through risen mobs).

    I wouldn't even be surprised if we find out that the Frost Citadel was built as a Pact encampment, forced to abandon for the fight against Mordremoth. We know that the Pact were establishing a small foothold against Jormag while fighting Zhaitan, and was preparing an assault on Kralkatorrik after Zhaitan's death until the Commander called for the World Summit; presmably, while preparing an assault on Kralkatorrik, they could have built a fort far north to monitor Jormag without usurping Vigil's outposts such as Jora's Keep.

    My guess is that it was an oversight during the original trailer to not having electric arcs coming out of the two coil towers.

    Or that there are phases where it's powered up and powered down, and the two trailers show the different phases for those coil towers.

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  • Susy.7529Susy.7529 Member ✭✭✭

    Mmh...uh...ah...ooh...uh-uh.
    That's all.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Simply put, Bangar's probably still got enough of his sense of self to realize Jormag has no reason to perfectly play nice. Even if he does have illusions of grandeur. Heck, it wouldn't be far fetched to believe that the machine's purpose is to steal Jormag's magic, and we'll end up finding Jormag somehow chained down or otherwise restrained from while it slept (also wouldn't be far fetched to believe Jormag's letting itself be chained down in such a scenario, rather than actually being imprisoned).

    Wouldn't be far fetched at all as it fits Bangar's personality and motivations. We also don't know if Jormag is being rational. Some of their whispers indicate they are acting from desperation or possibly from instinct. Jormag may not be the master mind some are making them out to be. If anyone needs to be corrupted into Jormag's 'champion', I hope it is Ryland and Bangar escapes and becomes the Commander's nemesis. The Commander needs a nemesis, someone who doesn't care about anything except causing the Commander trouble.

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  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Susy.7529 said:
    Mmh...uh...ah...ooh...uh-uh.
    That's all.

    Most of the awesome knowledgeable people here: puts out huge awesome paragraphs of detailed theories based on existing lore

    Me, watching the trailer: hey look, there’s ice in that shot there!

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • Steven.7534Steven.7534 Member ✭✭
    edited July 19, 2020

    https://imgur.com/4iq9xtF

    I found this print in the mission "Distract, Destroy Distrust". It was when we destroy the supply bunker for Smodur. This might have been a hint of what the Domination was planning for Jormag.

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2020

    @Steven.7534 said:
    https://imgur.com/4iq9xtF

    I found this print in the mission "Distract, Destroy Distrust". It was when we destroy the supply bunker for Smodur. This might have been a hint of what the Domination was planning for Jormag.

    I was wondering what that thing was and it is written in asuran script. It's sketches of the original models of asuran gates (concept art) and a leviathan. It is translated as....
    "This is what I believe brought forth the blessed vehicle" pointing at center of asura gate. The outer ring of the gate is legended "Octostash".
    Along several other asuran sentences and mechanic terms.

    It also has very funny sentences like "With wheels lights as emblems of Nissan etched on rear"!

    That asset is also present in recon cove, grothmar valley but lower quality, so took the one in drizzlewood to translate. Thanks the devs btw to have put that asset again with better quality.

    Shiny links, take a look!
    ->Ideas: Housing , Designing a new lounge , New GameMode
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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2020

    @hugo.4705 said:

    @Steven.7534 said:
    https://imgur.com/4iq9xtF

    I found this print in the mission "Distract, Destroy Distrust". It was when we destroy the supply bunker for Smodur. This might have been a hint of what the Domination was planning for Jormag.

    I was wondering what that thing was and it is written in asuran script. It's sketches of the original models of asuran gates (concept art) and a leviathan. It is translated as....
    "This is what I believe brought forth the blessed vehicle" pointing at center of asura gate. The outer ring of the gate is legended "Octostash".
    Along several other asuran sentences and mechanic terms.

    It also has very funny sentences like "With wheels lights as emblems of Nissan etched on rear"!

    That asset is also present in recon cove, grothmar valley but lower quality, so took the one in drizzlewood to translate. Thanks the devs btw to have put that asset again with better quality.

    That's a very generic billboard art asset that has existed since the core game. You can find it in most Order of Whispers or Priory bases, including the Chantry of Secrets, Durmand Priory, and the Ebonhawke Whisper base iirc.

    It has zero lore relations to the Icebrood Saga.

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    This is probably similar to Aurene's "Branding" of Caithe, where Aruene asked, Caithe allowed it to happen, and it allowed her to "corrupt" another dragon minion, despite that typically not being possible directly. Caithe still keeps her free will and all that, but is still connected to Aurene. Jormag has always done something similar, using promises of power to "corrupt" living beings into accepting it willingly, without just outright Icebrooding them directly.

    We've known since Kudu's Monster that multi-corruption was possible, just that the Elder Dragons seemed to refrain from doing so. It's possible that the reason is that once a creature is made into a dragon minion, a second dragon corrupting the creature does not grant the second dragon control so the second dragon has nothing to gain from corrupting another dragon's minion - which isn't a problem for the Inquest and may even be beneficial, since they're looking to break or subvert the connection between Elder Dragons and their minions themselves. Aurene's conversion of Caithe, therefore, might purely be a matter of Aurene not caring about control because she doesn't want minions that lack free will.

  • @Psientist.6437 said:
    That machine opens some interesting plot directions. Bangar could be siphoning draconic energy without Jormag's consent. Banagar didn't walk as though he was a subordinate.

    This is my take. I definitely think that someone has Bangar's ear, but I don't think it's Jormag. There are a couple of big players it could be, and the obvious one is Primordius since we've seen his portals about and he is the opposite force to Jormag, but this may go a little deeper than that...

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    That, or Jormag has seen the usefulness of minions that can think on their own [...]

    Jormag's branded have always been able to think for themselves. We see this with the Svanir in the Hoelbrak and there are plenty of other examples too, up to and including the Svanir that were just trying to enjoy some hot springs bathing time until Ryland's warband got up in their face about it.

  • Hypnowulf.7403Hypnowulf.7403 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Obliviscaris.6937 said:
    She quite literally did this to Aesgir, which resulted in the Norn building their culture around a big fat tooth shaped lie.

    They. Jormag is nonbinary.

    Also, I know it can be easy to want to follow old biases based upon patterns and beliefs regarding visual appearances but I don't believe that Jormag is remotely as evil as you'd think. They do what they have to to defend themselves but we've had it on good authority that a.) Jormag loves Tyria dearly, and b.) they only ever tell the truth. ArenaNet has said as much.

    What happened with Asgeir isn't exactly what Jormag intended, they wanted the norn to see the presence of the tooth as a victory so that further altercation wasn't necessary. Jormag does this. They don't want to fight unless it's absolutely necessary to survive. They do the same thing with Drakkar. They fight because they have a dragon's instinct to survive, and wanting to live isn't an evil thing, and they know that they have much to protect themselves against. Furthermore, they aren't sure of what the Commander intends, Joko illustrated this quite finely. By killing Elder Dragons, the world could easily be doomed. Jormag isn't privy to everything that the player knows, that's dramatic irony at work, they only know the snippets they've been able to hoard and ascertain for themself. They see the Commander as a loose cannon, someone who could just as easily destroy Tyria as the Elder Dragons. Aurene is a point of hope but it's not enough to say that the Commander won't destroy Tyria. Ice protects, ice preserves, and that's what Jormag wants.

    I've spoken of Jormag's perspective before. They've been defending themselves from other Elder Dragons who've been trying to eat them for millennia, since time immemorial, and they've done the least amount of damage they can to just survive. If they go, the way they see it is that Tyria has no chance. It's down to the Commander to show that they aren't the destructive force that Jormag believes they are, just as Joko believed they are (and in all honesty, they kind of have been right up until being tempered by Aurene). Jormag's had enough, they see this as the tipping point, either they save the world now or it's doomed. Aurene gives them hope that they can work openly with the mortals to this end, they've said as much.

    I mean, the tagline of The Icebrood Saga is that we'll have to learn uncomfortable truths about the Elder Dragons. What could be more uncomfortable than learning that, perhaps, at one time all of the Elder Dragons were good? That it's been torment driving each and every one of them to do terrible things? And that at least Jormag doesn't have torment? Perhaps even that they're aware of all of this and is one of the only forces tryig to fight the torment head on?

    What if Jormag believes the Commander might have torment?

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    We've known since Kudu's Monster that multi-corruption was possible, just that the Elder Dragons seemed to refrain from doing so. It's possible that the reason is that once a creature is made into a dragon minion, a second dragon corrupting the creature does not grant the second dragon control so the second dragon has nothing to gain from corrupting another dragon's minion - which isn't a problem for the Inquest and may even be beneficial, since they're looking to break or subvert the connection between Elder Dragons and their minions themselves. Aurene's conversion of Caithe, therefore, might purely be a matter of Aurene not caring about control because she doesn't want minions that lack free will.

    Kudu's monster isn't a viable example because of the unnatural method by which it made. Its explicitly stated, and reinforced, both before, and after, Kudu's monster, that Dragon missions cannot corrupt each other naturally. Likewise, Kudu's monster can only attune one of the Elder Dragon's magics at once, again suggesting these is a fundamental barrier between being corrupted by more then one at a given time. Which is consistent with the other examples outside Kudu's monster.

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    Jormag's branded have always been able to think for themselves. We see this with the Svanir in the Hoelbrak and there are plenty of other examples too, up to and including the Svanir that were just trying to enjoy some hot springs bathing time until Ryland's warband got up in their face about it.

    Svanir aren't branded in the traditional sense either. They are people who willingly accept some of Jormag's power, but as we see with Svanir who have lived for a long time, that power does eventually corrupt them, and turn them into the same kind of dragon minion we see the other dragons use/more typical mindless icebrood.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    That machine opens some interesting plot directions. Bangar could be siphoning draconic energy without Jormag's consent. Banagar didn't walk as though he was a subordinate.

    This is my take. I definitely think that someone has Bangar's ear, but I don't think it's Jormag. There are a couple of big players it could be, and the obvious one is Primordius since we've seen his portals about and he is the opposite force to Jormag, but this may go a little deeper than that...

    Primordus doesn’t exactly seem like the scheming type. Seems more of a taking things by sheer force kind of elder dragon.

    If it wasn’t Jormag I’d wager it’s something else entirely, perhaps not even an elder dragon. But I think it’s going to be as simple as Jormag with a different threat appearing much later.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    we've had it on good authority that a.) Jormag loves Tyria dearly, and b.) they only ever tell the truth. ArenaNet has said as much.

    Citation Needed.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    We've known since Kudu's Monster that multi-corruption was possible, just that the Elder Dragons seemed to refrain from doing so. It's possible that the reason is that once a creature is made into a dragon minion, a second dragon corrupting the creature does not grant the second dragon control so the second dragon has nothing to gain from corrupting another dragon's minion - which isn't a problem for the Inquest and may even be beneficial, since they're looking to break or subvert the connection between Elder Dragons and their minions themselves. Aurene's conversion of Caithe, therefore, might purely be a matter of Aurene not caring about control because she doesn't want minions that lack free will.

    Kudu's monster isn't a viable example because of the unnatural method by which it made. Its explicitly stated, and reinforced, both before, and after, Kudu's monster, that Dragon missions cannot corrupt each other naturally. Likewise, Kudu's monster can only attune one of the Elder Dragon's magics at once, again suggesting these is a fundamental barrier between being corrupted by more then one at a given time. Which is consistent with the other examples outside Kudu's monster.

    Special pleading. Kudu's monster existed, and isn't the only example, just the first one we encountered. There's nothing special about doing something in a lab that can't be done in the wild - the same physics happen in a lab as in the wild, it's just that conditions are more controlled. The Elder Dragons are happy to blend multiple forms of draconic energy into their minions, just that they only do so after the dragon that originally presided over that domain is dead.

    NPCs saying things are unreliable narrators, with little reason to believe they know more than we do. In fact, they might well know less, depending on how common knowledge of the Inquest's experiments are. We've seen it be a plot point that what an NPC says is wrong several times before.

    What we know is that, in practice, the Elder Dragons do not try to corrupt minions who are already claimed by another dragon, apart from Aurene forming her connection with Caithe.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    we've had it on good authority that a.) Jormag loves Tyria dearly, and b.) they only ever tell the truth. ArenaNet has said as much.

    Citation Needed.

    Would be interested in those quotes, too.
    I doubt someone that masquerades its own voice with the voice of a dead person to lure in the commander would only ever tell the truth.
    It is just a scheming dragon, ice and persuasion are Jormags domains. The only thing it loves is its own survival.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2020

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    That machine opens some interesting plot directions. Bangar could be siphoning draconic energy without Jormag's consent. Banagar didn't walk as though he was a subordinate.

    This is my take. I definitely think that someone has Bangar's ear, but I don't think it's Jormag. There are a couple of big players it could be, and the obvious one is Primordius since we've seen his portals about and he is the opposite force to Jormag, but this may go a little deeper than that...

    Out of all the Elder Dragons, Primordus seems the least likely to interact with living beings. Primordus' only actions towards mortals has been to kill them, even when they begin worshiping him (like the Flame Legion) or siphoning his power (like the Stone Summit dwarves).

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    That, or Jormag has seen the usefulness of minions that can think on their own [...]

    Jormag's branded have always been able to think for themselves. We see this with the Svanir in the Hoelbrak and there are plenty of other examples too, up to and including the Svanir that were just trying to enjoy some hot springs bathing time until Ryland's warband got up in their face about it.

    Sons of Svanir are not corrupted dragon minions. They're a cult, many of whom become icebrood eventually, but those in Hoelbrak are not corrupted (except the one icebrood that shows up during Dragon Bash). As shown during Season 3 Episode 3 (when ANet had adopted the bad habit of calling icebrood norn "Svanir"), many icebrood are indeed nigh mindless and are even incapable of speech. This is even implied at the end of No Quarter when comparing the Frost Legion to icebrood:

    Rytlock Brimstone: They fight smarter than icebrood!
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Turnabout

    Not sure about the hot springs part - iirc, those were typical Sons of Svanir, not icebrood. So again a different breed. And the only other time we see icebrood interact with hot springs was to destroy and cool down the hot springs (Bitterfrost events).

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    We've known since Kudu's Monster that multi-corruption was possible, just that the Elder Dragons seemed to refrain from doing so. It's possible that the reason is that once a creature is made into a dragon minion, a second dragon corrupting the creature does not grant the second dragon control so the second dragon has nothing to gain from corrupting another dragon's minion - which isn't a problem for the Inquest and may even be beneficial, since they're looking to break or subvert the connection between Elder Dragons and their minions themselves. Aurene's conversion of Caithe, therefore, might purely be a matter of Aurene not caring about control because she doesn't want minions that lack free will.

    Kudu's monster isn't a viable example because of the unnatural method by which it made. Its explicitly stated, and reinforced, both before, and after, Kudu's monster, that Dragon missions cannot corrupt each other naturally. Likewise, Kudu's monster can only attune one of the Elder Dragon's magics at once, again suggesting these is a fundamental barrier between being corrupted by more then one at a given time. Which is consistent with the other examples outside Kudu's monster.

    Unnatural method? All the Inquest literally do is expose people and minions to corruptive energy. They do not alter that energy in the least. There's barely anything unnatural about it except that the Elder Dragon isn't choosing to corrupt those specific subjects. The only thing "unnatural" is the environment which has zero effect on what's happening to the subjects (be it kidnapped civilians being turned into dragon minions, or dragon minions exposed to further corruptive energies).

    And it is, in fact, never "explicitly stated and reinforced" - either before or after - that dragon minions cannot corrupt each other naturally. The closest thing is Taimi's line in All or Nothing:

    Taimi: I thought dragon minions couldn't be corrupted by other dragons! Is it 'cause her egg absorbed Mordremoth's magic? How—

    But pay attention: 1) Taimi thought they couldn't be corrupted, which is important that it shows her own doubt on the matter at this point (plus, Taimi is an unreliable narrator, so even if she were to say they indeed couldn't be, there's a chance she's wrong), 2) she's making that statement as she sees a minion be corrupted thus disproving that notion, 3) and while Caithe calls it a "connection" rather than corruption, it's still doing the same thing as corruption except for one thing - Aurene didn't remove/enslave Caith's will, making it effectively the same thing as the creation of sylvari.

    It has always just been player assumption and self-conviction that dragon minions cannot be corrupted. This is never once stated as a fact in game. Plus, the entire sylvari immunity thing has been established by ArenaNet devs to be due to "the Pale Tree's protection". Post-Season 2, for clarity's sake.

    And if there is some other super obscure proof on dragon minions being immune, beyond the lack of seeing such in the wild, please do share. Just keep in mind that the lack of evidence is not evidence of lacking - all the lack of cross-corrupted minions in the wild means is that the Elder Dragons choose not to corrupt other dragons minions, not that they are incapable of such.

    The only immunity we see against dragon corruption comes in the form of Forgotten magic (Exalted, etc.), and a still unclarified sylvari "Pale Tree's protection".

    Also, there's Subject Alpha, which is fully capable of using five Elder Dragons' powers without "changing attunements", so that latter statement is disproven, too.

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  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2020

    I wonder after reading all of that, instead of speaking about a specific dragon corrupted minion, wouldn't it be better to say that; the minion have been corrupted with the draconic energy associated to that dragon? Like we have death-vine destroyers, death-branded centaurs, subject Alpha, Subject Beta..... If the draconic energy, is in fact just a mutagenic agent, then you can inject as much as you want in the subject. (Of course monitoring the experiment and dosing the different energies)
    Once you are "contaminated" you can use the "powers" associated from the injected energy and your body shape with specific features... (Crystals, Vines...)
    I know that after Zhaithan and Mordremoth were killed, their energies leaked to the nearest dragon, but can't the death-vine destroyers as examples be considered as minions converted by 3 dragons on purpose? Isn't it the same as Mordremoth, Zhaithan and Primordius would have targeted the same creature?

    I'm curious about what other think, a death-branded mordrem isn't the same as a subject beta?
    To me the foes at ember bay are a natural occurrence of cross-corruption even if it's due to the fact a dragon gained abilities from the others who got killed.

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2020

    @hugo.4705 said:
    I wonder after reading all of that, instead of speaking about a specific dragon corrupted minion, wouldn't it be better to say that; the minion have been corrupted with the draconic energy associated to that dragon? Like we have death-vine destroyers, death-branded centaurs, subject Alpha, Subject Beta..... If the draconic energy, is in fact just a mutagenic agent, then you can inject as much as you want in the subject. (Of course monitoring the experiment and dosing the different energies)
    Once you are "contaminated" you can use the "powers" associated from the injected energy and your body shape with specific features... (Crystals, Vines...)
    I know that after Zhaithan and Mordremoth were killed, their energies leaked to the nearest dragon, but can't the death-vine destroyers as examples be considered as minions converted by 3 dragons on purpose? Isn't it the same as Mordremoth, Zhaithan and Primordius would have targeted the same creature?

    I'm curious about what other think, a death-branded mordrem isn't the same as a subject beta?
    To me the foes at ember bay are a natural occurrence of cross-corruption even if it's due to the fact a dragon gained abilities from the others who got killed.

    Pretty much, there is a difference between being corrupted by a dragon, and having dragon energy. Kudu's monster had draconic energy in it, but it wasn't actually corrupted by any of the dragons. The same is true for subject Alpha/Beta. Obviously there's things like Vine Touched destroyers, who use the powers of both Primordus and Mordremoth, but they are still only corrupted by Primordus. The same is true of Caithe, and her interaction with Aurene.

    1. Kudu's monster wasn't corrupted by any of the dragons. It simply had draconic energies. Same with Subject Alpha/Beta.
    2. The whole point of writing a line like Taimi's is to serve as an explanation to the audience about how this works. And, what you conveniently leave out, is Caithe's response, which add the clarification of

    Caithe: Taimi, it's all right. She asked, and I accepted. This isn't corruption—it's connection.

    Caithe wasn't corrupted, but was still able to take in Aurne's power, but draconic energy =/= draconic corruption. They are two separate things.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2020

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    we've had it on good authority that a.) Jormag loves Tyria dearly, and b.) they only ever tell the truth. ArenaNet has said as much.

    Citation Needed.

    Ask, and ye shall receive. We Dawn bloom sylvari are always happy to lend a hand and help curious souls find knowledge throughout Tyria. :)

    Fascinating tweets from Tom Abernathy, Studio Narrative Director, himself:

    tomabernathy: Said it before and I’ll say it again: Jormag is 100% sincere in saying they love Tyria and want nothing more than to fortify and protect it. Jormag doesn’t lie. That’s part of their strength. (Source)

    Michram142: If they didn't want to wreck mortals in progress and make them lose their free will... They may love the planet, but Aurene truly loves Tyria, because she wants to preserve all life, rather than keep destroying it for the sake of devouring more magic.
    tomabernathy: Interesting. (Source)

    One should always raise an eyebrow whenever Tom replies with "Interesting," whether on Twitter or Reddit (hopefully we'll see more of his comments on these forums too in the future when/if the occasion calls for it). He's also used similar phrasing when players brought up the idea of whether other Elder Dragons suffer from their own forms of Torment as well as whether Aurene was able to absorb all of Kralkatorrik's magic upon her ascension or if some of that magic reached other Elder Dragons (and the latter was proven true via the Bjora Marches journals that revealed that Drakkar and Jormag have received at least some magic from Kralkatorrik's demise; it wouldn't surprise me if they got some of Balthazar's magic too in which case they can circumvent some of the divine magic protection and possibly enter the Mists like Kralkatorrik and Aurene did). :)

    As for the subject of dragon energy corrupting a subject, we've seen how the Risen-infused artifacts worn by Howl and Kellach turned them into Risen. In Kellach's case the transformation was gradual with the effects of attracting Risen to him until he insta-turned into Risen in Jennah's throne room. As such, dragon energy itself will passively corrupt its target into this or that dragon's minion without the dragon or its minions needing to be around to force it to in these circumstances.

    As seen with Kudu's Monster, Subjects Alpha and Beta (and potentially Kudu himself), targets can in fact be crosscorrupted by just letting them get exposed to dragon energy unless there's some specific protection like divine magic and related Exalting etc. rituals (at least until Kralkatorrik and Aurene consumed Balthazar, which allows them to bypass some of the divine protection as seen with corrupting djinn, and there are suggestions in game now that other dragons may have received this power too), Dream of Dreams, or the Blue and Golden Orbs.

    Why the Elder Dragons haven't tried to crosscorrupt other dragons' minions in the wild, then? There could be plenty of reasons. Maybe the dragon needs to concentrate more magic to corrupt an already corrupted minion, which is not economical when dragons prefer to hoard most of the magic for themselves (thus the number of mindless grunts is greater than the more intelligent lieutenants and champions).

    Another reason could be more sinister: as seen with Subject Alpha, it became an unpredictable "wild card" whose loyalties remain unknown. It was able to attune to different dragon hiveminds' frequencies and somehow wrestle control of rival dragons' minions for itself while turning the various minions into a pack that viewed it as their pack alpha. Perhaps the dragons are aware of this outcome and how these wild card champions could threaten their rule if left unchecked, which is why we haven't seen any crosscorrupted minions in the wild and why different dragons' minions seem to avoid one another's territory (e.g. Mordrem and Branded never interacting in Ascalon, Icebrood ceasing their relentless assault on the Stone Summit fortress in Far Shiverpeaks once the Summit remnants had been infused with Primordus's power as revealed in Arngirn's journal and why Icebrood and Destroyers never got close to one another in Darkrime Delves).

    Given how Crucible of Eternity's explorable mode showed one of Alpha's essences slithering away unharmed, I'd love to find out that Alpha managed to escape the facility before it was shut down and has continued consuming beings into itself to become more powerful and more intelligent over the following years. Imagine if Alpha became our somewhat morally grey antagonist/ally who seeks out perfection while becoming a potential threat as a "seventh" Elder Dragon by leeching on each dragon's power to take over their minions one by one. In this scenario it would be intriguing for Alpha to come across Overseer Kuda and its "sibling", Subject Beta, and how it might view Kuda's ambitions to continue her father's work to create synchonized, crosscorrupted minions under the Inquest's control (possibly with the dominating devices the Inquest used on Risen in Arah's mursaat path).

    How might Alpha view the Unchained Risen, Mordrem and Branded and the related champions? Would it try to negotiate with these Unchained champions so they form a new multi-minion army so they can forge their own path, or would Alpha simply take over these confused ex-minions and turn them into a potent force where the strengths of each related minion empower the whole horde. And what would Alpha feel about Aurene's existence and her relationship with her mortal followers, and vice versa? Would Aurene view Alpha with pity, curiosity, or worry depending on what sort of a path Alpha forged as the true wild card? :)

    I'm really curious about the machine that infuses the Frost Legion with dragon energy. It's essentially a more advanced version of Kudu's machine in that it doesn't turn subjects into full corrupted minions but gives them only some frosting akin to Svanir who are in early stages of corruption. Is Jormag willingly granting their power via the machine, is it making the charr think they're in charge as they leech some dragon energy for their uses, or has Bangar genuinely figured out a way to perfect Kudu's research?

    These Frost Legion retain their personality and intelligence (it'll be fascinating to listen to their taunts and chatter based on that_shaman's teases, and I hope we actually get to hear proper idle conversations between Frost Legion members when we sadly didn't get the same luxury with the mostly mute Dominion outside of events). I also look forward to finding out if the Frost Citadel is newly built or if parts of it may have originated as an Inquest or Pact outpost before it was frozen over and before the charr repurposed it for their uses.

    It'll be fun to find out how prepared Bangar really is when he so far seems to be severely underestimating Jormag's power and if he actually has any trump card whatsoever, especially if there's some Inquest collaboration based on the curious Brand stomper sabotage that attracted the Branded to the ceremony, which forced Aurene to intervene and soured many of the attending charr to her presence as the saboteur may have planned all along to speed things up and force Bangar into action sooner than expected. Unless that's all a misdirection and some charr has actually been responsible for the sabotage behind Bangar's back; either way, Bangar seemed genuinely surprised by Aurene's flyover in the prologue, so I doubt even he could fake his surprise that well when his previous fakings have been pretty obvious (e.g. his snarky responses to Almorra in the office).

    There was even ambient dialogue where Researcher Dwidd, clad in Inquest clothes, discussed potentially weaponizing Aurene's magic and how Gorrik might be able to help with that; it would be fun if Gorrik's Inquest past caught up with him and if Kuda has taken notice of his and Taimi's research on Aurene and wants that data so she can perfect her own dragon minion project. :)

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2020

    @Kossage.9072 "Given how Crucible of Eternity's explorable mode showed one of Alpha's essences slithering away unharmed, I'd love to find out that Alpha managed to escape the facility before it was shut down and has continued consuming beings into itself to become more powerful and more intelligent over the following years."

    In fact I wouldn't be surprised that Alpha essence is still alive and possessed a dead asura researcher body left somewhere in the facility. And trying to escape.
    I'm sure at 300% the inquest returned into the "sealed" facility to recover Kudu's Corpse and the data stored on the terminal before Kudu's crucible. To make subject Beta. They either: Recovered the Alpha essence / Found an entity possessed by it but killed it / Only used the data they found here.

    But frankly, to return to the main subject, I don't really see how those charrs are turned into icebrood they don't even have a Draconic Energies Transmuter like the ones used in subject preparation vaults (story). It would work by vaporizing icebrood ice dust? I kinda find it big, a charr knowing nothing of asura know how to extract draconic essences or magics whereas it surely took Kudu a good part of its life to set up the crucible.

    About Inquest global work on minions, I just feel like they try to understand them. They created very recently DERV, dragon elimination raid vehicle, I have no doubt they want to throw an army of a hundred of them on dragon lieutenants to kill them. Or, because of seeing more and more dragons rising, they decided they have to create something to protect rata sum. We are killing them everytime, but what if they were in fact allies? Maybe they even wanted to see if the plague could kill dragons. (But started investigated lethality on what they have). I definitely think also they wanted Subject Alpha and Beta to be able to control any dragon minion, that way, they bring one with them and It would make a safe area all around. (Directing them all against the dragon who created them) But, hey, that thing is conscious and also want to direct them, understandable after undergoing horrible and hurtful experiments and tests; associating red-black uniform asuras as target.

    Again, I'm just surprised the Inquest hasn't yet sent on Gorrik a squad of Exterminator mark golems and enhanced centurions to get its head of a traitor.

    Or plot twist, Gorrik and Dwidd are working for Bangar. Inquest over time associated themselves with others if it was beneficial: Aetherblades.... Sinister Triade (Bandit+ Nightmare Court)..... With Balthazar in Draconis Mons (a god)... Why not Bangar, an imperator?

    I call it, partnership with bangar = free icebrood to study and some infos from Jormag about dragons.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hugo.4705 said:
    I'm curious about what other think, a death-branded mordrem isn't the same as a subject beta?
    To me the foes at ember bay are a natural occurrence of cross-corruption even if it's due to the fact a dragon gained abilities from the others who got killed.

    I would argue that they are examples of cross-corruption, but a vastly different style. Because in the end, Primordus is the only one corrupting those destroyers, and Kralkatorrik the only one corrupting those branded, even if they're corrupting them with two types of draconic energies.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Pretty much, there is a difference between being corrupted by a dragon, and having dragon energy. Kudu's monster had draconic energy in it, but it wasn't actually corrupted by any of the dragons. The same is true for subject Alpha/Beta. Obviously there's things like Vine Touched destroyers, who use the powers of both Primordus and Mordremoth, but they are still only corrupted by Primordus. The same is true of Caithe, and her interaction with Aurene.

    1. Kudu's monster wasn't corrupted by any of the dragons. It simply had draconic energies. Same with Subject Alpha/Beta.
    2. The whole point of writing a line like Taimi's is to serve as an explanation to the audience about how this works. And, what you conveniently leave out, is Caithe's response, which add the clarification of

    Caithe: Taimi, it's all right. She asked, and I accepted. This isn't corruption—it's connection.

    Caithe wasn't corrupted, but was still able to take in Aurne's power, but draconic energy =/= draconic corruption. They are two separate things.

    Dragon corruption is the act of imbuing dragon energy into something. You're right that "draconic energy != draconic corruption", but that's the same as saying "oxygen != breathing". Breathing is not the same as oxygen, but (in most Earthly life) uses oxygen; similarly, dragon corruption is not the same as draconic energy, but it uses draconic energy. However, one can not be imbued with draconic energy without suffering from dragon corruption. Whether that corruption is benevolent (like the Pale Tree's and Glint's) or hazardous (like Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, Kralkatorrik's, etc.) is another matter.

    There is nothing in the game to state that Kudu's monster wasn't corrupted - hell, its very appearance is an active disagreement to that claim, given it looks like a risen giant. Same with Subject Alpha and Subject Beta, the former being literally classified as a risen by the game's mechanics, and the later having a strictly branded appearance. So your first point is nothing short of pure speculation and assumption on your part.

    As to your point 2, that's incorrect, as it is implying the non-existence of unreliable narrator, which is something ArenaNet uses to its fullest possible use (some could easily argue they use it too much even). The point of the line is to establish how it is thought to work not how it actually does work. After all, the fact that what is being shown disagrees with the line outright is proof that how it is thought to work is false.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @hugo.4705 said:
    In fact I wouldn't be surprised that Alpha essence is still alive and possessed a dead asura researcher body left somewhere in the facility. And trying to escape.
    I'm sure at 300% the inquest returned into the "sealed" facility to recover Kudu's Corpse and the data stored on the terminal before Kudu's crucible. To make subject Beta. They either: Recovered the Alpha essence / Found an entity possessed by it but killed it / Only used the data they found here.

    Wasn't the entire point of the lockdown because the reactor was unstable from the story mode, thus anything within would die of radiation before long?

    Hard to really tell, the two modes are rather disconnected beyond Spire's "I was supposed to kill Kudu but you took that fun job" ranting.

    Again, I'm just surprised the Inquest hasn't yet sent on Gorrik a squad of Exterminator mark golems and enhanced centurions to get its head of a traitor.

    Maybe they're smart enough to know it's kind of a bad idea to kitten off the Pact Commander (again) by trying to kill one of their companions.

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kossage.9072 said:
    Another reason could be more sinister: as seen with Subject Alpha, it became an unpredictable "wild card" whose loyalties remain unknown. It was able to attune to different dragon hiveminds' frequencies and somehow wrestle control of rival dragons' minions for itself while turning the various minions into a pack that viewed it as their pack alpha. Perhaps the dragons are aware of this outcome and how these wild card champions could threaten their rule if left unchecked, which is why we haven't seen any crosscorrupted minions in the wild and why different dragons' minions seem to avoid one another's territory (e.g. Mordrem and Branded never interacting in Ascalon, Icebrood ceasing their relentless assault on the Stone Summit fortress in Far Shiverpeaks once the Summit remnants had been infused with Primordus's power as revealed in Arngirn's journal and why Icebrood and Destroyers never got close to one another in Darkrime Delves).

    This is pretty much my thinking. When an Elder Dragon first corrupts a minion, they can 'program' the minion so that its first loyalty is to the dragon (we see this in Edge of Destiny, which gives us a look into the mind of a dragon minion). Once a being is corrupted, though, a second dragon can't just come in and rewrite the minion so that it's loyal to them instead. It either remains loyal to the first dragon (assuming it hasn't since been cleansed in some manner) or it sunders the link entirely and leaves the minion uncontrolled. Either way, the second dragon gains nothing that it couldn't gain from simply killing a rival dragon's minion.

    This naturally explains not only why the dragons don't corrupt each other's minions (they have nothing to gain from doing so), but it also neatly explains the exceptions. Aurene has no problem infusing her power into Caithe because Aurene doesn't want to rob Caithe of her free will, so it doesn't matter if Caithe's status as a cleansed minion of Mordremoth (technically a descendent of one, but nevertheless) prevents her from doing so: she had no plan to do so in the first place. The Inquest are happy to engage in multi-corruption experiments because they already need to find some alternative means of controlling their experimental subjects, so why would they care if corrupting, say, a Risen with Brand energy fails to transfer ownership of the minion from Zhaitan to Kralkatorrik? They don't want the minion to be under the control of either dragon.

    No special exceptions "because lab conditions are different to what's in the wild" needed - the theory both neatly explains why we don't normally see it while also explaining the exceptions. Elder Dragons who corrupt minions because they want to gain control over their minions won't do so to minions of other dragons because doing so won't grant them control. But for non-dragons, and dragons that don't care about control such as Aurene, this doesn't matter.

    Heck, there's a discussion somewhere in the original release where it's noted that the sylvari aren't actually immune to Zhaitan's corruption... it's just that instead of becoming Risen, sylvari that are afflicted with Zhaitan corruption simply die. Almost like Zhaitan was simply going "you are no use to me" and discarding them.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Heck, there's a discussion somewhere in the original release where it's noted that the sylvari aren't actually immune to Zhaitan's corruption... it's just that instead of becoming Risen, sylvari that are afflicted with Zhaitan corruption simply die. Almost like Zhaitan was simply going "you are no use to me" and discarding them.

    Not just Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik is also established as having the same effect when sylvari are branded - their immunity to any Elder Dragon corruption has been death, not "it doesn't work".

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  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @hugo.4705 said:

    Wasn't the entire point of the lockdown because the reactor was unstable from the story mode, thus anything within would die of radiation before long?

    Hard to really tell, the two modes are rather disconnected beyond Spire's "I was supposed to kill Kudu but you took that fun job" ranting.

    The lockdown was to avoid the escape of Alpha. Really, they don't care about the status of the reactor, the database or whatever.
    The Intercom speaks when alpha appears/ is defeated. (Quarantine in effect/lifted)
    Plus each path starts with: "Alpha escaped!" followed by "Lockdown now in effect"

    The reactor indeed leaked in story, I dunno how much time passed before exploration paths (will assume 15 mins), but you will notice that in explo, the arcane reactor is sealed and unnacessible, thus no radiation anywhere. And so, employees/ dragon minions alive around the facility. Dunno why you think it's still leaking... It just created radiation in the reactor, but the real threat were the cascade resonance fields. Do you think that medics would heal in the room near the reactor if it was irradiated? And no, don't say they are just idiots. (Well maybe they will be injured like the ones in the tent hospital near thaumanova)

    Agent spire from memory, said at the end that she stopped any vital system and that the facility is now a cold hostile empty coffin. BUT, subject alpha is so heavily different from others and so mutated, that it could survive without oxygen. Plus, as I said no doubt kuda went here restoring the systems to recover her father work. Also the dungeon description states it's collapsing, easy to imagine that some ceiling were cracked letting air pass.

    Quote:
    "We staged this to look like an accident. Other Inquest will show up to investigate. When they fail to get in to the lab, we'll track them back to their bases."
    But the ones that will show up have grades above Kudu, and no doubt they will succeed into getting in.

    Rytlock in story:
    "We should quit this place and let others deal with the cleanup. Those who know more of magic than I do."

    So I assume, Zojia, Logan and Rytlock knew that after story, whispers, vigil or priory would come after.

    But Spike were indeed planning to assassinate Kudu, and we arrived before. But it is strange, how she arrived to us, whereas the other labs were closed, and the reactor contaminated? If she passed through the aquarium and alpha reserve, she obligatory met alpha, locking herself with it.

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Dragon corruption is the act of imbuing dragon energy into something. You're right that "draconic energy != draconic corruption", but that's the same as saying "oxygen != breathing". Breathing is not the same as oxygen, but (in most Earthly life) uses oxygen; similarly, dragon corruption is not the same as draconic energy, but it uses draconic energy. However, one can not be imbued with draconic energy without suffering from dragon corruption. Whether that corruption is benevolent (like the Pale Tree's and Glint's) or hazardous (like Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, Kralkatorrik's, etc.) is another matter.

    There is nothing in the game to state that Kudu's monster wasn't corrupted - hell, its very appearance is an active disagreement to that claim, given it looks like a risen giant. Same with Subject Alpha and Subject Beta, the former being literally classified as a risen by the game's mechanics, and the later having a strictly branded appearance. So your first point is nothing short of pure speculation and assumption on your part.

    Given the above examples, Kudus Monster, Subject Alpha, Etc. I suppose it is possible that these creatures are at first corrupted by Zhaitan and then imbued with the other dragon energies. Somewhat similar with how the dragon uses other dead dragon’s sphere for corruption.

    Kudus monster and Subject Alpha are Risen given the appearance, yet they are now using the different types of energies.

    Is it a rogue minion, or is this monster still technically under Zhaitan’s control? Does any dragon have control of this minion or is Zhaitan the major sphere of influence?

    Perhaps there is truth of a dragon minion can’t be corrupted by another dragon, however when exposed to other dragon’s spheres, this minion can now use that dragon’s energy, perhaps without the permission or control of that particular Elder Dragon. That would explain the cross contamination, as well as how Caithe can be imbued with Aurene’s energy while still being a minion of Mordremoth.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hugo.4705 said:
    The lockdown was to avoid the escape of Alpha. Really, they don't care about the status of the reactor, the database or whatever.
    The Intercom speaks when alpha appears/ is defeated. (Quarantine in effect/lifted)
    Plus each path starts with: "Alpha escaped!" followed by "Lockdown now in effect"

    Spire and the Pact had no knowledge of Subject Alpha.

    Intercom: Attention!
    Intercom: Subject Alpha has escaped!
    Agent Spire: Keep moving. I don't want to be buried here.
    Agent Spire: Stand back. Watch me push a button. Oooh, maybe I'll flip a lever.
    Intercom: Attention!
    Intercom: Secuity protocols engaged. Lockdown measures are now in effect.
    Agent Spire: Well, there goes my exit plan. Listen: there are three contingency plans for escaping this site.
    

    Subject Alpha's escape and the following security protocols weren't part of Spire's plans. Hence why we couldn't leave the way we came in, and had to go down one of the following three paths.

    Incidentally, if you choose the submarine path, the sub breaks through the wall and thus kinda renders the entire lockdown moot because there's a big kitten hole in the wall flooding the lab.

    The reactor indeed leaked in story, I dunno how much time passed before exploration paths (will assume 15 mins), but you will notice that in explo, the arcane reactor is sealed and unnacessible, thus no radiation anywhere. And so, employees/ dragon minions alive around the facility. Dunno why you think it's still leaking... It just created radiation in the reactor, but the real threat were the cascade resonance fields. Do you think that medics would heal in the room near the reactor if it was irradiated? And no, don't say they are just idiots. (Well maybe they will be injured like the ones in the tent hospital near thaumanova)

    I figured it'd still be leaking because Logan and Rytlock wanted Zojja to abandon the plan to go after Kudu.

    Rytlock Brimstone: Look at this mess. I'm not going in there.
    Zojja: That reactor isn't going to last much longer.
    Rytlock Brimstone: Then that's our cue to pull back.
    Zojja: No! I will not let Kudu escape again! This ends now!
    Logan Thackeray: Rytlock's right. I'm not a fan of growing extra limbs. So how do you plan on getting us through there?
    Zojja: You're speaking to a genius, remember? Stay close to Mr. Sparkles and you'll be safe.
    

    Throughout the entire story dungeon, the reactor is going closer and closer to critical, and earlier when asked about the reactor going into meltdown, Zojja mentions that it happened before "near the Hinterlabs" (referring to Thaumanova). Half of the reason we're rushing to Kudu was because we needed to kill him a) before he succeeded and b) before he blew the reactor up and repeated Thaumanova. If it could be solved by simply sealing, why didn't Zojja do that instead of literally walk through the reactor full of radiation?

    Looking at it, seems Spire's goal was to force every door to close and lock. Kinda weird since we navigate the entire complex after she entered the code... Also kinda weird given the security protocols with Subject Alpha's presence locking down all the doors of the room its in was somehow unexpected after she entered the code...

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Given the above examples, Kudus Monster, Subject Alpha, Etc. I suppose it is possible that these creatures are at first corrupted by Zhaitan and then imbued with the other dragon energies. Somewhat similar with how the dragon uses other dead dragon’s sphere for corruption.

    Kudus monster and Subject Alpha are Risen given the appearance, yet they are now using the different types of energies.

    Is it a rogue minion, or is this monster still technically under Zhaitan’s control? Does any dragon have control of this minion or is Zhaitan the major sphere of influence?

    Perhaps there is truth of a dragon minion can’t be corrupted by another dragon, however when exposed to other dragon’s spheres, this minion can now use that dragon’s energy, perhaps without the permission or control of that particular Elder Dragon. That would explain the cross contamination, as well as how Caithe can be imbued with Aurene’s energy while still being a minion of Mordremoth.

    The problem there is twofold:

    1. The Inquest don't know how to separate the two, or at least there's zero evidence suggesting they do, and sufficient show that they don't. We see in the story mode that all they do in their "experiments" is expose people to the energies, which turns them into full-fledged dragon minions. Not "people augmented with dragon magic" or the like.
    2. Subject Alpha is capable of controlling all dragon minions nearby it, which indicates that it is part of each dragon minions' hive mind, as that hive mind is how they differ friend from foe. This would indicate it was not just exposed / augmented with dragon energies, but suffered from dragon corruption of all five relevant Elder Dragons.

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Given the above examples, Kudus Monster, Subject Alpha, Etc. I suppose it is possible that these creatures are at first corrupted by Zhaitan and then imbued with the other dragon energies. Somewhat similar with how the dragon uses other dead dragon’s sphere for corruption.

    Kudus monster and Subject Alpha are Risen given the appearance, yet they are now using the different types of energies.

    Is it a rogue minion, or is this monster still technically under Zhaitan’s control? Does any dragon have control of this minion or is Zhaitan the major sphere of influence?

    Perhaps there is truth of a dragon minion can’t be corrupted by another dragon, however when exposed to other dragon’s spheres, this minion can now use that dragon’s energy, perhaps without the permission or control of that particular Elder Dragon. That would explain the cross contamination, as well as how Caithe can be imbued with Aurene’s energy while still being a minion of Mordremoth.

    The problem there is twofold:

    1. The Inquest don't know how to separate the two, or at least there's zero evidence suggesting they do, and sufficient show that they don't. We see in the story mode that all they do in their "experiments" is expose people to the energies, which turns them into full-fledged dragon minions. Not "people augmented with dragon magic" or the like.
    2. Subject Alpha is capable of controlling all dragon minions nearby it, which indicates that it is part of each dragon minions' hive mind, as that hive mind is how they differ friend from foe. This would indicate it was not just exposed / augmented with dragon energies, but suffered from dragon corruption of all five relevant Elder Dragons.

    I guess my question is, is Subject Alpha separate and under no dragon’s control or is It controlled by all of them.

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Given the above examples, Kudus Monster, Subject Alpha, Etc. I suppose it is possible that these creatures are at first corrupted by Zhaitan and then imbued with the other dragon energies. Somewhat similar with how the dragon uses other dead dragon’s sphere for corruption.

    Kudus monster and Subject Alpha are Risen given the appearance, yet they are now using the different types of energies.

    Is it a rogue minion, or is this monster still technically under Zhaitan’s control? Does any dragon have control of this minion or is Zhaitan the major sphere of influence?

    Perhaps there is truth of a dragon minion can’t be corrupted by another dragon, however when exposed to other dragon’s spheres, this minion can now use that dragon’s energy, perhaps without the permission or control of that particular Elder Dragon. That would explain the cross contamination, as well as how Caithe can be imbued with Aurene’s energy while still being a minion of Mordremoth.

    The problem there is twofold:

    1. The Inquest don't know how to separate the two, or at least there's zero evidence suggesting they do, and sufficient show that they don't. We see in the story mode that all they do in their "experiments" is expose people to the energies, which turns them into full-fledged dragon minions. Not "people augmented with dragon magic" or the like.
    2. Subject Alpha is capable of controlling all dragon minions nearby it, which indicates that it is part of each dragon minions' hive mind, as that hive mind is how they differ friend from foe. This would indicate it was not just exposed / augmented with dragon energies, but suffered from dragon corruption of all five relevant Elder Dragons.

    I guess my question is, is Subject Alpha separate and under no dragon’s control or is It controlled by all of them.

    Would say the first, alpha to me is acting free will of revenge or fear: It simply group together all the minions to attack the personnel that contained it.
    Its reserve was surely equipped of mental waves inhibitors, if not any minion of the lab would be always rogue. Imho.

    I just think alpha has its own hive mind, stronger than the one of any dragon.

    Shiny links, take a look!
    ->Ideas: Housing , Designing a new lounge , New GameMode
    ->Project: ASURAN EXPANSION available on WIKI.
    ->NEW: Crucible of Eternity path 4: Legacy on WIKI
    ->NEW Asurapedia

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @hugo.4705 said:
    The lockdown was to avoid the escape of Alpha. Really, they don't care about the status of the reactor, the database or whatever.
    The Intercom speaks when alpha appears/ is defeated. (Quarantine in effect/lifted)
    Plus each path starts with: "Alpha escaped!" followed by "Lockdown now in effect"

    Spire and the Pact had no knowledge of Subject Alpha.

    Intercom: Attention!
    Intercom: Subject Alpha has escaped!
    Agent Spire: Keep moving. I don't want to be buried here.
    Agent Spire: Stand back. Watch me push a button. Oooh, maybe I'll flip a lever.
    Intercom: Attention!
    Intercom: Secuity protocols engaged. Lockdown measures are now in effect.
    Agent Spire: Well, there goes my exit plan. Listen: there are three contingency plans for escaping this site.
    

    Subject Alpha's escape and the following security protocols weren't part of Spire's plans. Hence why we couldn't leave the way we came in, and had to go down one of the following three paths.

    Incidentally, if you choose the submarine path, the sub breaks through the wall and thus kinda renders the entire lockdown moot because there's a big kitten hole in the wall flooding the lab.

    The reactor indeed leaked in story, I dunno how much time passed before exploration paths (will assume 15 mins), but you will notice that in explo, the arcane reactor is sealed and unnacessible, thus no radiation anywhere. And so, employees/ dragon minions alive around the facility. Dunno why you think it's still leaking... It just created radiation in the reactor, but the real threat were the cascade resonance fields. Do you think that medics would heal in the room near the reactor if it was irradiated? And no, don't say they are just idiots. (Well maybe they will be injured like the ones in the tent hospital near thaumanova)

    I figured it'd still be leaking because Logan and Rytlock wanted Zojja to abandon the plan to go after Kudu.

    Rytlock Brimstone: Look at this mess. I'm not going in there.
    Zojja: That reactor isn't going to last much longer.
    Rytlock Brimstone: Then that's our cue to pull back.
    Zojja: No! I will not let Kudu escape again! This ends now!
    Logan Thackeray: Rytlock's right. I'm not a fan of growing extra limbs. So how do you plan on getting us through there?
    Zojja: You're speaking to a genius, remember? Stay close to Mr. Sparkles and you'll be safe.
    

    Throughout the entire story dungeon, the reactor is going closer and closer to critical, and earlier when asked about the reactor going into meltdown, Zojja mentions that it happened before "near the Hinterlabs" (referring to Thaumanova). Half of the reason we're rushing to Kudu was because we needed to kill him a) before he succeeded and b) before he blew the reactor up and repeated Thaumanova. If it could be solved by simply sealing, why didn't Zojja do that instead of literally walk through the reactor full of radiation?

    So firstly, if we decide with zojia to pass through the arcane reactor, it's because it would take too much time to pass through aquarium and alpha.

    In fact, I'm happy you quoted that dialogue, because I just felt like rytlock.

    How she knew that it was the shorter path? Maybe she had a plan of the facility. If so, they knew a place is called alpha reserve. To me, she only took a very unnecessary dangerous risk just to kill Kudu before it escapes. It was needed to simply seal it, but we simply passed through. The reactor melted down, but not in the way it will explodes, zojia also states it is surely due to "overstressing the mystic diodes" so, to me the capacitors exploded, liberating the cascade field, and cutting the power supply of the containment chambers. The meltdown of the reactor is the cause of why alpha and other evolved foes weren't contained anymore, with all those inquest cadavers around the crucible during exploration paths. I kinda also find it quite surprising and convenient that mr sparkles is radiation proof.....

    Shiny links, take a look!
    ->Ideas: Housing , Designing a new lounge , New GameMode
    ->Project: ASURAN EXPANSION available on WIKI.
    ->NEW: Crucible of Eternity path 4: Legacy on WIKI
    ->NEW Asurapedia

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I guess my question is, is Subject Alpha separate and under no dragon’s control or is It controlled by all of them.

    Hard to say, since we don't see it do anything than kill all non-dragon minions (or try to). No communications, no interactions with dragon goals. There's not a lot you can infer from "it's killing (or trying to kill) all non-dragon minions in the labs".

    My theory is that it's the latter, but with a slight twist: it hears the hive minds and commands of all five Elder Dragons, and this has driven it into insanity because of the conflicting mentalities forced upon it, resulting in a maddened killing machine that can control all five dragons' minions.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭

    @hugo.4705 said:
    @Kossage.9072 "Given how Crucible of Eternity's explorable mode showed one of Alpha's essences slithering away unharmed, I'd love to find out that Alpha managed to escape the facility before it was shut down and has continued consuming beings into itself to become more powerful and more intelligent over the following years."

    In fact I wouldn't be surprised that Alpha essence is still alive and possessed a dead asura researcher body left somewhere in the facility. And trying to escape.
    I'm sure at 300% the inquest returned into the "sealed" facility to recover Kudu's Corpse and the data stored on the terminal before Kudu's crucible. To make subject Beta. They either: Recovered the Alpha essence / Found an entity possessed by it but killed it / Only used the data they found here.

    I'd love the twist of Alpha possessing Kudu's corpse if it ever returns to the story as an evolved version of itself. It wouldn't even require that many new assets; they could just slap some Awakened skin texture on Kudu and add some infusions to make his body have a shadowy aura with glowy eyes etc. Just hearing Mark Allan Stewart reprising his sexy Kudu voice but with the audio team's creepy filter effects placed on top of it to signify that Alpha is in control would be an unnerving experience for sure. :)

    As for the Frost Citadel meta, the dialogue from the Frost shamans during it seems to suggest no Inquest repurposing of assets. So far I haven't spotted any meta dialogue or peaceful ambient dialogue about the machine and its origin and how Bangar figured out the blood conversion progress. But the release is still young, so maybe there's as of yet undiscovered dialogue out there that clarifies it...