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  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    The kill farmers will just get killed by the other kill farmers and the kill trading will suddenly stop!

    Meanwhile the "guys only looking to kill", have raid nights where they camp a spot to farm kills with other zergs like outside smc or areas around south towers or garri, or just sit in an open tower farming.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just increase T6 mat drops in gw2 and tie them to killing folks. Thieves drop claws, rangers drop fangs, engineers drop bones, revs drop totems etc.
    That should at least drop the trading post price on whatever necros and guardians drop. X3

    ~ Kovu

    Ranger, Necromancer, Fort Aspenwood.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    The kill farmers will just get killed by the other kill farmers and the kill trading will suddenly stop!

    Meanwhile the "guys only looking to kill", have raid nights where they camp a spot to farm kills with other zergs like outside smc or areas around south towers or garri, or just sit in an open tower farming.

    We already have hackers and botters, that hasn't stopped anything else in WvW, why would we care about kill traders. See them, report them, have them banned. Why punish everyone else versus addressing the issue?

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Vova.2640Vova.2640 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Vova.2640 said:
    And people who say "oh people will just coordinate and trade kills" you have no idea how wvw works.

    Really.

    Not going to list the original posters name (since they aren't part of this thread) but I'll just copy/paste what they said, as think it is a rather succinct description of the issue.

    While its true that many did use EotM, don't forget that a lot of players used the old Obsidian Sanctum farm, back in the day I seen several streamers on twitch farming in here, 3 zergs mass killing each other, these players where going up 20-30 levels an hour with boosters, some of which today are 7k+ this is why Anet should look into WXP again,

    And ...

    @Vova.2640 said:
    And those who will go to wvw to farm kills by trading will just get farmed by those who don't care and are just looking to kill stuff. Simple as that.

    Please go on. I feel you can teach me so much....

    EotM is not even considered wvw for many of the rewards. Same can be applied for this. Only EBG + 3BLs.
    I dont think you get anything from kills in OS. If you do still get bags/drops anet can just disable that as well.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vova.2640 said:
    And people who say "oh people will just coordinate and trade kills" you have no idea how wvw works.
    If any guild group hears about this being done they will just go there and kill the kill-trades just for the fun of it.
    Most people in wvw enjoy playing and winning.
    And those who will go to wvw to farm kills by trading will just get farmed by those who don't care and are just looking to kill stuff. Simple as that.

    You must be new as this has occurred multiple times in the past and most likely still happens.

    I played wvw for over 6 years so no, Im not new.
    Plus EotM and OS can be excluded from those kind of drops, as they are already excluded from any other reward related things.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vova.2640 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Vova.2640 said:
    And people who say "oh people will just coordinate and trade kills" you have no idea how wvw works.

    Really.

    Not going to list the original posters name (since they aren't part of this thread) but I'll just copy/paste what they said, as think it is a rather succinct description of the issue.

    While its true that many did use EotM, don't forget that a lot of players used the old Obsidian Sanctum farm, back in the day I seen several streamers on twitch farming in here, 3 zergs mass killing each other, these players where going up 20-30 levels an hour with boosters, some of which today are 7k+ this is why Anet should look into WXP again,

    And ...

    @Vova.2640 said:
    And those who will go to wvw to farm kills by trading will just get farmed by those who don't care and are just looking to kill stuff. Simple as that.

    Please go on. I feel you can teach me so much....

    EotM is not even considered wvw for many of the rewards. Same can be applied for this. Only EBG + 3BLs.
    I dont think you get anything from kills in OS. If you do still get bags/drops anet can just disable that as well.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vova.2640 said:
    And people who say "oh people will just coordinate and trade kills" you have no idea how wvw works.
    If any guild group hears about this being done they will just go there and kill the kill-trades just for the fun of it.
    Most people in wvw enjoy playing and winning.
    And those who will go to wvw to farm kills by trading will just get farmed by those who don't care and are just looking to kill stuff. Simple as that.

    You must be new as this has occurred multiple times in the past and most likely still happens.

    I played wvw for over 6 years so no, Im not new.
    Plus EotM and OS can be excluded from those kind of drops, as they are already excluded from any other reward related things.

    There have been coordinated karma farms in the borderlands before between servers. There have also been a few times when the same was done for kills.

    On a small scale, trading kills can easily be done as there are areas on all of the maps that nobody goes.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vova.2640 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Vova.2640 said:
    And people who say "oh people will just coordinate and trade kills" you have no idea how wvw works.

    Really.

    Not going to list the original posters name (since they aren't part of this thread) but I'll just copy/paste what they said, as think it is a rather succinct description of the issue.

    While its true that many did use EotM, don't forget that a lot of players used the old Obsidian Sanctum farm, back in the day I seen several streamers on twitch farming in here, 3 zergs mass killing each other, these players where going up 20-30 levels an hour with boosters, some of which today are 7k+ this is why Anet should look into WXP again,

    And ...

    @Vova.2640 said:
    And those who will go to wvw to farm kills by trading will just get farmed by those who don't care and are just looking to kill stuff. Simple as that.

    Please go on. I feel you can teach me so much....

    EotM is not even considered wvw for many of the rewards. Same can be applied for this. Only EBG + 3BLs.
    I dont think you get anything from kills in OS. If you do still get bags/drops anet can just disable that as well.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vova.2640 said:
    And people who say "oh people will just coordinate and trade kills" you have no idea how wvw works.
    If any guild group hears about this being done they will just go there and kill the kill-trades just for the fun of it.
    Most people in wvw enjoy playing and winning.
    And those who will go to wvw to farm kills by trading will just get farmed by those who don't care and are just looking to kill stuff. Simple as that.

    You must be new as this has occurred multiple times in the past and most likely still happens.

    I played wvw for over 6 years so no, Im not new.
    Plus EotM and OS can be excluded from those kind of drops, as they are already excluded from any other reward related things.

    I have been in a squad where the commander was whispering the commander of an enemy zerg, who was playing on an alt account on that server, when his main account and guild are on my server, coordinating open field fights outside of SMC to help train pugs on movement and coordination.

    If you don't think we could just as easily coordinate a situation where one group stands still and gets farmed, then return from respawn to return the favour, and do that over and over to farm drops... then I'm not sure what dimension of reality you inhabit, but I hope you have a very nice day.

  • Vova.2640Vova.2640 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    If anything Im not sure what kind of dimension you lot live in lol.

    You go on the assumption that everyone and their dog will suddenly start abusing this? And you base this on the fact that a some people coordinated some kill trade in the past? seriously what....
    Yes Im sure ppl still do this on small scale. It cannot be avoided. So listening to you two I get the impression anet shoud just remove drops/exp from kills altogether.
    Oh ppl trade objectives and ktrains maps? better remove all rewards and wxp from flipping objectives.

    No serious what...!?!

    Besides, this will hardly even be profitable.... a small chance to get some valuable junk item - maybe one truly valuable item in every 100-500 kills... you'll need so much to get much from it.

    Sure you may have 10 ppl from each server trading kills but that will hardly yield anything assuming you'd need like 10-20 kills for one rng 10 silver item drop / 100-200 kills for one rng 1 gold item drop etc....
    You can literally make more gold killing mobs in wvw that drop T6 mats that sell for 15-25silver a piece.......

    Cool you'll get 1-2 extra gold every 10min... or 6-12 gold every 1 hour.... by trading kills.....
    Yet it will literally be more profitable to run circles in silverwastes than doing this... The point of this is it will just add on top of the scraps we already get in wvw.

    Geez how can people even have such a negative mindset towards everything lol...

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vova.2640 said:
    You go on the assumption that everyone and their dog will suddenly start abusing this? And you base this on the fact that a some people coordinated some kill trade in the past? seriously what....

    Nobody said everyone. That's a hyperbole. As with every other similar situation in the game, if you present the opportunity to abuse something there will be those that will take advantage of it. Increasing the value of drops increases the appeal to kill trading. This doesn't necessarily mean it would get as large as years ago in OS.

    Yes Im sure ppl still do this on small scale. It cannot be avoided.

    Moving the goal post? Just a few posts ago you said that these kill groups would be farmed by other kill groups. If they're still happening on the small scale then they're not getting farmed by other kill groups as you so stated. You essentially negated that entire argument of yours just now.

    So listening to you two I get the impression anet shoud just remove drops/exp from kills altogether.
    Oh ppl trade objectives and ktrains maps? better remove all rewards and wxp from flipping objectives.

    No serious what...!?!

    Nobody said that. Please don't make things up. Another hyperbole as well.

    Besides, this will hardly even be profitable.... a small chance to get some valuable junk item - maybe one truly valuable item in every 100-500 kills... you'll need so much to get much from it.

    Sure you may have 10 ppl from each server trading kills but that will hardly yield anything assuming you'd need like 10-20 kills for one rng 10 silver item drop / 100-200 kills for one rng 1 gold item drop etc....
    You can literally make more gold killing mobs in wvw that drop T6 mats that sell for 15-25silver a piece.......

    Cool you'll get 1-2 extra gold every 10min... or 6-12 gold every 1 hour.... by trading kills.....
    Yet it will literally be more profitable to run circles in silverwastes than doing this... The point of this is it will just add on top of the scraps we already get in wvw.

    Geez how can people even have such a negative mindset towards everything lol...

    If it's not profitable for a group of players farming it specifically over a consistent period of time, how would it be worth it to those that do not?

  • Diku.2546Diku.2546 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    Why shouldn't WvW players have a fair shake at gearing themselves for WvW through WvW?

    This is my opinion & speculation

    1. WvW players are paid minimum wage to farm & supply equipment that's sold in the Black Lion Trading Company.
    2. WvW players have to supplement their income by supporting activity in other game modes that pay more.
    3. WvW players spend a disproportionate amount of their total income. Actual cost is higher in comparison to other game modes due to the expense ratio to total income...which allows them to be suppressed in wealth generation & stuck in a cycle of servitude to all other game modes.

    Just my observation using economic theories that's floating around in my head.

    Sadly...WvW players will continue to be treated as an underdog...imho

    Yours truly,
    Diku

    Credibility requires critical insight & time.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/89449/wvg-world-vs-globes/p1

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    In PvP and PvE, you have to be good to get max rewards. You need to win your fights and hold your nodes, or kill the fractal/raid boss.

    I struggle with this because you really don't have to be good. There's a reason people complain about bots in PvP, being good is totally secondary to just playing a lot. Being good can INCREASE your rewards (of which WvW has no option). But being bad still results in having an income almost twice that of WvW for... well what is a tiny step up from AFKing.

    I do agree that in principle how WvW is formatted leaves reward increases vulnerable to exploit. But there are a lot of different things Anet could implement in diverse small portions that would shrink the gap but not make extreme exploits/kill trading/what have you worth it. IE give keep lords a tiny chance at dropping super rare infusion X Y or Z, but also increase drops from enemies when you are participating in a Defend Objective event. Now kill trading is impractical because what the two sides want is directly opposed. If the one side kills the keep lord the other loses the increased drop chance. And you can't have a group just K-train around because they won't have any keeplords to farm after... 9? of them unless the enemy recaps them because they feel like they can defend it.

    Edit: There are flaws to the above, wasn't meant to be an ideal solution, just that they exist.

  • Diku.2546Diku.2546 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    @God.2708 said:
    But being bad still results in having an income almost twice that of WvW for... well what is a tiny step up from AFKing.

    Hmm...to prevent this type of behavior...low hanging fruit that might be easy to code?

    1. Players earn points by Opening WvG Reward Chests that appear after flipping "Capture Rings" at various WvG location objectives

    2. "Capture Rings" spawn WvG Reward Chests after players flip them for (x minutes) & remains active to let players collect their Points & Rewards for themselves & their Home Server

    3. "Capture Rings" may reset to "Not Captured" for some WvG location objectives to allow it to be "Re-Captured" by Home Defenders or Enemy Raiders

    See link - for full context:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1064950/#Comment_1064950

    Yours truly,
    Diku

    Credibility requires critical insight & time.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/89449/wvg-world-vs-globes/p1

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Since the topic has shifted... to prevent abuse any things added need to be primarily accountbound if from skirmish track:

    • Instead of gold in skirmish chests put more warlord exotic armor boxes and ditch grandmaster mark shards for the grandmaster marks (i.e. 3x per week), this addresses subversiontwo's comment. ("Why shouldn't WvW players have a fair shake at gearing themselves for WvW through WvW?")
    • Instead of putting gold in the skirmish chests the reward for tier 3 keep capture should be higher. The reward for defending (not repairing wall) a T3 should be higher. Memories of battle should be more thematic to battles...
      ** For example: 2 memories of battle + guaranteed legendary spike + 5 rare unid could drop from lord room if you take a T3 keep with defenders that show up via emergency waypoint since it takes hours to tier it up. The programming would probably involve checking if EWP was pulled and if either team is outnumbered. 5% Chance for +5 stat WvW infusion selection chest drop (the ones you normally get for laurels or skirmish tickets).
      ** 1 memory of battle + 3 rare unid if you take a T3 keep and there is a fight in lord room vs similar numbers (i.e. not outnumbered for either team). 2% Chance for +5 stat WvW infusion selection chest drop.
      ** 1 memory of battle + 2 rare unid if you take a T2 keep and the EWP is pulled and neither team is outnumbered.
      ** 1 memory of battle + 30 badges of honor (enough for badge of tribute) if you defend a T3 keep in lord room by resurrecting lord or neutralizing the ring after the ring starts capping and successfully defending vs 25+ (no wall repair). The neutralizing / resurrecting lord and 25+ check means there is far lower chance for abuse.

    • Anything that involves paper objectives is going to fail terribly because it will just be ktrained 24/7 ...

    • Anything that involves skirmish rewards is just going to be afked

    Tying anything to keep lords themselves is probably a bad idea as well, since if you have two groups one squad or subgroup might be on the EWP. I'd much rather it be event based as Diku suggested.

  • Senqu.8054Senqu.8054 Member ✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Since the topic has shifted... to prevent abuse any things added need to be primarily accountbound if from skirmish track:

    • Instead of gold in skirmish chests put more warlord exotic armor boxes and ditch grandmaster mark shards for the grandmaster marks (i.e. 3x per week), this addresses subversiontwo's comment. ("Why shouldn't WvW players have a fair shake at gearing themselves for WvW through WvW?")

    PvE gives you the ability to decide if you want to spend gold on gear or skins or what ever PLUS you gain free asc chests. Why do people always argue if WvW players should get anything of that too?

    • Instead of putting gold in the skirmish chests the reward for tier 3 keep capture should be higher. The reward for defending (not repairing wall) a T3 should be higher. Memories of battle should be more thematic to battles...
      ** For example: 2 memories of battle + guaranteed legendary spike + 5 rare unid could drop from lord room if you take a T3 keep with defenders that show up via emergency waypoint since it takes hours to tier it up. The programming would probably involve checking if EWP was pulled and if either team is outnumbered. 5% Chance for +5 stat WvW infusion selection chest drop (the ones you normally get for laurels or skirmish tickets).
      ** 1 memory of battle + 3 rare unid if you take a T3 keep and there is a fight in lord room vs similar numbers (i.e. not outnumbered for either team). 2% Chance for +5 stat WvW infusion selection chest drop.
      ** 1 memory of battle + 2 rare unid if you take a T2 keep and the EWP is pulled and neither team is outnumbered.
      ** 1 memory of battle + 30 badges of honor (enough for badge of tribute) if you defend a T3 keep in lord room by resurrecting lord or neutralizing the ring after the ring starts capping and successfully defending vs 25+ (no wall repair). The neutralizing / resurrecting lord and 25+ check means there is far lower chance for abuse.

    • Anything that involves paper objectives is going to fail terribly because it will just be ktrained 24/7 ...

    This suggestions is only good for the server who has more players. lol

    • Anything that involves skirmish rewards is just going to be afked

    Am i the only one who thinks that you can be brain afk in PvE and earn 10g/h??? Are you dead serious telling me that this is skilled gameplay? Even fracs are easy as hell after you did them one or two times.

    Tying anything to keep lords themselves is probably a bad idea as well, since if you have two groups one squad or subgroup might be on the EWP. I'd much rather it be event based as Diku suggested.

    It is so easy. Just give us more gold. You guys are making suggestions nowhere near realizable. We need a system for everyone. Anyone who wants to Zerg can Zerg, anyone who wants to roam can roam, anyone who wants to do something in between should be able to do that and get rewards for it. Let the people the freedom to play WvW as they want and not as you want them to play it god kitten! Both modes are basically casual modes for everyone with some parts that can be mastered.

  • Not sure if the way I am thinking is wrong, having more gold is fun but I just play WvW not to make gold but to have some fun doing open world PVP. I literally don't do stuff based on how much gold I am making as long as I enjoy doing it. So even if WvW is not as rewarding as other parts are I just do for the fun and I also think most of the ppl do it for the same reason if ppl start doing WvW only cause they can make more gold than other parts of the game then I don't think I want to play against them. It is hard to get gears from WvW, I got most of my gears from other parts of the game like crafting and living worlds. the PvE, PvP, and WvW are not 3 different games but parts of one game :D so just play whatever u enjoy and the gold comes at its own pace.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Deathifer.4897 said:
    Not sure if the way I am thinking is wrong, having more gold is fun but I just play WvW not to make gold but to have some fun doing open world PVP. I literally don't do stuff based on how much gold I am making as long as I enjoy doing it. So even if WvW is not as rewarding as other parts are I just do for the fun and I also think most of the ppl do it for the same reason if ppl start doing WvW only cause they can make more gold than other parts of the game then I don't think I want to play against them. It is hard to get gears from WvW, I got most of my gears from other parts of the game like crafting and living worlds. the PvE, PvP, and WvW are not 3 different games but parts of one game :D so just play whatever u enjoy and the gold comes at its own pace.

    Nothing in your statement is wrong. It's a philosophy that I personally feel is quite healthy and balanced. The only issue is the question isn't "do I play content I enjoy for low rewards vs. content I don't enjoy that gives high rewards", but "do I play content I enjoy for low rewards vs. content I enjoy that give high rewards".

    I'll use myself as an example (I used the same example in a post above). As I had already finished Diamond tier, I've maxed out my skirmish tickets for this week. When I get home from work I have about a 90 minute window for play before meal-time. What do I do? I want to log into WvW, because it is fun, but I also would like to do T4 fractal dailies, as they are also fun. On a level playing field, it becomes a simple choice. But since my time in WvW would reward me with little of value, since I can't earn more tickets until after weekly reset, I'd be better off doing Fractals which at least puts a guaranteed 25-30 gold into my pocket.

    If players are repeatedly faced with a choice between two activities they enjoy and find fun, but one has a significantly higher level of rewards than the other, I think on average players will choose the activity with the higher reward. If I wasn't in the process of finishing off Legendary Armor, and needed to max my tickets each week, or if I was one of those veterans who has 5000 tickets already in their wallet, the rewards from WvW would be even less than they are now.

    I honestly don't know what the solution is. I also don't know if it's really a problem for ANET's vision for the game. When did they say that WvW zerging should pay out the same level as T4 fractals?

    But I also think for the health of this game, you need to give players incentive to zone into WvW instead of PvP or PvE, and Skirmish Tickets alone aren't enough of an incentive, given not everyone is actively in need of them, and they are capped at 365 per week in any case, leaving many players with nothing to chase once the weekend is over and/or they complete Diamond.

    A PvP player who has finished the final Byz reward chest before the end of the 2-month season still has a reason to zone in and play more matches, as repeating the Byz chest remains rewarding. A WvW player who has finished the Diamond skirmish chest before the end of the weekly reset has no reason to zone in, as repeated Diamond chests are practically worthless. There also remains the issue of players being unable to complete Diamond each week because they don't have enough hours in a day to spend in WvW, but that's a different issue.

    Should WvW reward players with more gold? Yes. How to do it without opening the door to exploits which will harm both the in game economy, and lead to more afk/botting, which with our map queue system would be more harmful than what we see going on in PvP? I have no idea.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Deathifer.4897 said:
    Not sure if the way I am thinking is wrong, having more gold is fun but I just play WvW not to make gold but to have some fun doing open world PVP. I literally don't do stuff based on how much gold I am making as long as I enjoy doing it. So even if WvW is not as rewarding as other parts are I just do for the fun and I also think most of the ppl do it for the same reason if ppl start doing WvW only cause they can make more gold than other parts of the game then I don't think I want to play against them. It is hard to get gears from WvW, I got most of my gears from other parts of the game like crafting and living worlds. the PvE, PvP, and WvW are not 3 different games but parts of one game :D so just play whatever u enjoy and the gold comes at its own pace.

    This is where I have to use your mileage will vary and yes some of it is player choice. If you are making good coin, good on you. But your statement is quite one sided so if this isn't impacting you why try and bring it down. So take a havoc, and I will just use a sampling of things that could be for discussion.

    Your job has many hats but one of those is to take down towers and keeps, take camps and defend objectives. For a tower you might end using 3 catapults. That's 1.2 gold per tower, you might hit 2-20 of those a night. Per keep might be 3-6 catas so that's 2.4 gold per. You might hit 0-12 of those a night. If you siege up a keep to defend that might be 12 AC, 4 bali, 2 cata, 3 treb 2 shield gens, that's 9.5 gold per. You will do this less often if you have people that refresh but.. Take a camp and leave golems, that's 2 gold per, camps you might hit 3-18, now you won't leave golems at all of those but.... Now all of this is using the factor of buying siege, but what was bought could have been sold instead, so again your mileage will vary.

    Now that's before talking about gearing out. Happily hit 26 weeks of tickets yesterday so that was enough for a set of legendary armor. Again that's completely optional and is not needed, but is more efficient by fair then carrying around 4 sets of ascended gear to try and flip in and out of if needed for roles. Even saving all mats since last set and bidding on extra bags on TP and still not enough mats to craft them outright after last set 26 weeks before that. So when you factor in buying the missing mats and average that over the 26 weeks it took to get the tickets, that's 2 more gold per day as an expense.

    Now foods......which if being efficient you will want to use every 30 mins if you have no boosters, that will vary greatly if you are using the ones that are by the provisioner or if you are crafting ascended ones for a group. So that could range from free (if you don't count a cost to badges) up to a few gold a day.

    Now to be fair this could be shared expenses among people but either way there is a net gold lose from WvW that if you are not crafting for your groups, or acquiring siege or maxing your gear you might not think about but there is still a cost to WvW that people seem to brush under that comes from somewhere. That is where player choice comes granted, can you WvW in the exotic that you just earn, yes. Can you not use food and utility yes. Can you just use free siege that comes from drops, yes. Can you not deploy defensive siege, yes. Would you have been more effective in WvW if you did the extra bits, yes. Is it more fun to be efficient or to fail since you didn't take the extra steps.

    So if you are making plenty of coin, good for you. But don't naysayer others saying the rewards are on the low side, it will just help you and any service provider out so that they don't have to leave the game mode they enjoy more to be able to restock for the one they do. Good hunting.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    Your job has many hats but one of those is to take down towers and keeps, take camps and defend objectives. For a tower you might end using 3 catapults. That's 1.2 gold per tower, you might hit 2-20 of those a night. Per keep might be 3-6 catas so that's 2.4 gold per. You might hit 0-12 of those a night. If you siege up a keep to defend that might be 12 AC, 4 bali, 2 cata, 3 treb 2 shield gens, that's 9.5 gold per. You will do this less often if you have people that refresh but.. Take a camp and leave golems, that's 2 gold per, camps you might hit 3-18, now you won't leave golems at all of those but.... Now all of this is using the factor of buying siege, but what was bought could have been sold instead, so again your mileage will vary.

    Now to be fair this could be shared expenses among people but either way there is a net gold lose from WvW that if you are not crafting for your groups, or acquiring siege or maxing your gear you might not think about but there is still a cost to WvW that people seem to brush under that comes from somewhere. That is where player choice comes granted, can you WvW in the exotic that you just earn, yes. Can you not use food and utility yes. Can you just use free siege that comes from drops, yes. Can you not deploy defensive siege, yes. Would you have been more effective in WvW if you did the extra bits, yes. Is it more fun to be efficient or to fail since you didn't take the extra steps.

    Ok why are you building guild version of siege (4-8x the cost) when you can get superior siege for free from reward tracks and skirmish chest? Less supply sure, but still only comes down to needing to use in the offensive catapult situations when supply and time is limited, not when you're sieging a camp or keep when you have big supply next to you.

    Commanders are mainly ones who can't avoid the expense as they are usually the ones looked at to drop siege, but many get donations, or have the backing of a guild to help with this, even then a lot of them don't place defensive siege. My guild use to be one of those scouting/havoc with omega golems every day/upgrading/sieging up to 3 home keeps every day, and we did it without asking for donations or grumbled about the expense, because at the end of the day it was our choice.

    If you're not making enough gold to cover this optional expense.... then drop it, especially since there's a free option for it.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Ok why are you building guild version of siege (4-8x the cost) when you can get superior siege for free from reward tracks and skirmish chest? Less supply sure, but still only comes down to needing to use in the offensive catapult situations when supply and time is limited, not when you're sieging a camp or keep when you have big supply next to you.

    Commanders are mainly ones who can't avoid the expense as they are usually the ones looked at to drop siege, but many get donations, or have the backing of a guild to help with this, even then a lot of them don't place defensive siege. My guild use to be one of those scouting/havoc with omega golems every day/upgrading/sieging up to 3 home keeps every day, and we did it without asking for donations or grumbled about the expense, because at the end of the day it was our choice.

    If you're not making enough gold to cover this optional expense.... then drop it, especially since there's a free option for it.

    Your right, and as I stated its a choice thing. Since you ran havoc you know how tight you are on supply so for us, guild siege is the way to go since you will get the most from the least supply. And no like any player that actually deploys things in WvW you aren't looking for handouts from people, you do what you do because that's what you wanted to do. The point here was more there are costs to WvW, whether or not players choose to employee them is up to them. But that's not an excuse for the game mode to be the worst in recouping costs for playing it fully. So why should any of us come to the OP and say, nay you don't need it. Again, your mileage will vary.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Senqu.8054Senqu.8054 Member ✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    Your job has many hats but one of those is to take down towers and keeps, take camps and defend objectives. For a tower you might end using 3 catapults. That's 1.2 gold per tower, you might hit 2-20 of those a night. Per keep might be 3-6 catas so that's 2.4 gold per. You might hit 0-12 of those a night. If you siege up a keep to defend that might be 12 AC, 4 bali, 2 cata, 3 treb 2 shield gens, that's 9.5 gold per. You will do this less often if you have people that refresh but.. Take a camp and leave golems, that's 2 gold per, camps you might hit 3-18, now you won't leave golems at all of those but.... Now all of this is using the factor of buying siege, but what was bought could have been sold instead, so again your mileage will vary.

    Now to be fair this could be shared expenses among people but either way there is a net gold lose from WvW that if you are not crafting for your groups, or acquiring siege or maxing your gear you might not think about but there is still a cost to WvW that people seem to brush under that comes from somewhere. That is where player choice comes granted, can you WvW in the exotic that you just earn, yes. Can you not use food and utility yes. Can you just use free siege that comes from drops, yes. Can you not deploy defensive siege, yes. Would you have been more effective in WvW if you did the extra bits, yes. Is it more fun to be efficient or to fail since you didn't take the extra steps.

    Ok why are you building guild version of siege (4-8x the cost) when you can get superior siege for free from reward tracks and skirmish chest? Less supply sure, but still only comes down to needing to use in the offensive catapult situations when supply and time is limited, not when you're sieging a camp or keep when you have big supply next to you.

    Commanders are mainly ones who can't avoid the expense as they are usually the ones looked at to drop siege, but many get donations, or have the backing of a guild to help with this, even then a lot of them don't place defensive siege. My guild use to be one of those scouting/havoc with omega golems every day/upgrading/sieging up to 3 home keeps every day, and we did it without asking for donations or grumbled about the expense, because at the end of the day it was our choice.

    If you're not making enough gold to cover this optional expense.... then drop it, especially since there's a free option for it.

    What are those suggestions these days? It’s a fact that you don’t generate enough gold for guild siege. Why should anyone be punished for trying to play the game mode with all its items. Even in PvE where you have to spent 1000 of golds for infusions you generate enough gold to finance this. I generate in 5 hours PvE more then I will gain in WvW playing the whole kitten week. Heck you even generate by just flipping items more then you generate with WvW. Think about it. You can generate more gold then WvW by not playing this game at all. Ridiculous to even discuss about the reward balance between modes.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    Has Anet ever stated that PvE, sPvP, and WvW are distinct game modes AND must be self sustainable for those that choose to hyper focus their time in only one? It seems to me that Anet treats the game as a whole rather than three separate games.

    EDIT: Perhaps a better suggestion is that instead of monetary reward increases, Anet includes rewards that directly support people in playing that game mode.

    Maybe they can increase siege rewards (it’ll probably drop these to vendor value).

    Maybe they can let players exchange badges of honor for exotic food/utilities which cannot be sold or traded. Perhaps add another tab to that one trading gizmo to facilitate this.

    Let players exchange badges of honor and tickets for ascended mats in a way that doesn’t tank the prices of those mats further.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    But that's not an excuse for the game mode to be the worst in recouping costs for playing it fully. So why should any of us come to the OP and say, nay you don't need it. Again, your mileage will vary.

    Well also not really a legit reason to increase gold overall for the entire game mode when this situation really only affects a very small percentage of wvw players and more so the ones who do it recklessly when there's a free option to it.

    Not that I'm saying gold gains are fine in wvw, they never have been in 8 years, but I don't think gold increases should be implement as long as there's so much passive play to get it. Pve and spvp require you to be more active in running the metas or winning the match to get the gains, yes I know there's botting in there too, but wvw has long periods which you don't have to do anything for gains and that's a problem you don't want to keep encouraging, but also the solution to gate and stem certain abuse-able situations, as you can get kills at a much faster rate in wvw than the other two, but also sit on a treb for hours afk.

    You can't increase drops because that would encourage kill trading, unless they have diminishing returns built in. You can't increase reward tracks because of afking participation, unless you adjust participation gains, which they probably won't.

    I do think it would be nice to have more personal achievements to earn more gold, and not the regular go cap a tower do 3 dailies and get 2 gold. I mean like interrupt players 5000 times and get 5g (repeatable), heal for 50k and get 5g (repeatable), things that require you to be active in the game. Of course like anything else that is susceptible to botting, which is why numbers will have to very high and gains very low, which means zerging is more profitable.. this is why we can't have nice things in the end...

    @Senqu.8054 said:
    What are those suggestions these days? It’s a fact that you don’t generate enough gold for guild siege. Why should anyone be punished for trying to play the game mode with all its items. Even in PvE where you have to spent 1000 of golds for infusions you generate enough gold to finance this. I generate in 5 hours PvE more then I will gain in WvW playing the whole kitten week. Heck you even generate by just flipping items more then you generate with WvW. Think about it. You can generate more gold then WvW by not playing this game at all. Ridiculous to even discuss about the reward balance between modes.

    1000 of golds for infusions for the one and only game mode you need it for and absolutely required for higher levels, that you all say you can earn the most gold in.... right?
    Do you need infusions for wvw? no, not when exotics are still an acceptable replacement, and also not when it's infusions are also sold on the vendor for currency you already earn in the skirmish track.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    Not that I'm saying gold gains are fine in wvw, they never have been in 8 years, but I don't think gold increases should be implement as long as there's so much passive play to get it. Pve and spvp require you to be more active in running the metas or winning the match to get the gains, yes I know there's botting in there too, but wvw has long periods which you don't have to do anything for gains and that's a problem you don't want to keep encouraging, but also the solution to gate and stem certain abuse-able situations, as you can get kills at a much faster rate in wvw than the other two, but also sit on a treb for hours afk.

    You can't increase drops because that would encourage kill trading, unless they have diminishing returns built in. You can't increase reward tracks because of afking participation, unless you adjust participation gains, which they probably won't.

    I do think it would be nice to have more personal achievements to earn more gold, and not the regular go cap a tower do 3 dailies and get 2 gold. I mean like interrupt players 5000 times and get 5g (repeatable), heal for 50k and get 5g (repeatable), things that require you to be active in the game. Of course like anything else that is susceptible to botting, which is why numbers will have to very high and gains very low, which means zerging is more profitable.. this is why we can't have nice things in the end...

    Xen, remind me, did you play Warhammer Online? I know we have a lot of Ex-War players. If so, or if not, they had kill quests and it paid well enough people would try and make sure they renewed after completing to get the next one. This really didn't really create a lot of kill trading or not enough that it was that noted but it did help and was incentives to even more fighting. So the forums might be over blowing the idea of kill farming. But either way good with adding other activities that would be less afking and done normally by playing as well to bring extra income to offset the cost of the mode. There have been other threads on here on the past on similar ideas and work arounds, but the more people say nay it's even less incentive for ANet to agree there is an issue and consider adjusting. Don't get me wrong, my account isn't poor but that's not because of WvW, its because of the trading I have done overtime, and I did that originally to pay for WvW activities and gear outs.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    Xen, remind me, did you play Warhammer Online? I know we have a lot of Ex-War players. If so, or if not, they had kill quests and it paid well enough people would try and make sure they renewed after completing to get the next one. This really didn't really create a lot of kill trading or not enough that it was that noted but it did help and was incentives to even more fighting. So the forums might be over blowing the idea of kill farming. But either way good with adding other activities that would be less afking and done normally by playing as well to bring extra income to offset the cost of the mode.

    There have been other threads on here on the past on similar ideas and work arounds, but the more people say nay it's even less incentive for ANet to agree there is an issue and consider adjusting. Don't get me wrong, my account isn't poor but that's not because of WvW, its because of the trading I have done overtime, and I did that originally to pay for WvW activities and gear outs.

    Yes and yes, it was like kill 25 enemy players or kill 50 of a certain class or race and you could get it from each of the 3 factions of your side. I don't remember them giving a lot of currency for them, like a couple silvers not gold, but then again their economy is different from gw2. Not sure if there was limitations to them either, other than having to go back to the npc to hand in.

    I dunno overall I've spent 99% of my play time in wvw, I run two full accounts, I've gone out and did one world completion to make 2 legendaries, one I kept the other I sold to have a bank for rainy day purchases, I've gotten like 6 precursor drops in wvw, I've moved servers like 6-7 times by now over the years all funded by just selling my materials(like seriously does no one check their material bank?). I don't command so I don't have to spend anything on siege, even though I have tons of boxes of superior and regular siege unopened, I probably have like 1k skirmish boxes I haven't opened, plus a dead guild that has a ton of siege in the bank, I don't run super expensive food and oil because I don't need to unless I know I'm going to be in long fights, most of my characters have ascended, most of which I got from drops in wvw and ticket purchases or even laurels, I get my 2g from dailies like everyone else.

    I've played a lot to earn all that, but I don't feel the need to earn 1k gold per month to buy the next new shiny on the shop. I dunno I feel like why should someone sit on a treb afk and earn the same as me roaming or zerging around the same time when both our participation are capped the same. Sure I get more pips and get more diamond repeats a week but it's not like it's much cause don't get extra tickets which is the important part, and I can understand the limitation why if someone again gets up to repeat levels while afk for most of the time. Like I said I'd be more open to more gold as long as we have to play to earn it, if they toned down the participation you got for repairing and siege hits (like next to 0) I'd be on board for more gold.

    What I don't like with this thread overall is trying to skewer the numbers so much to make that point though, like let's not pretend we're completely starving for gold here and just be honest with the points.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • Senqu.8054Senqu.8054 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    1000 of golds for infusions for the one and only game mode you need it for and absolutely required for higher levels, that you all say you can earn the most gold in.... right?

    And you generate after that more gold then you spent in infusions. I can even craft another ascending armor for a specific build with all the infusions to get T4 ready and still be able to earn after some days more then I have spent. Same should apply to WvW. Is this logic hard to get for you or something?

    Do you need infusions for wvw? no, not when exotics are still an acceptable replacement, and also not when it's infusions are also sold on the vendor for currency you already earn in the skirmish track.

    Pathetic that you even mention exotic gear in such a discussion. Just shows how people treat WvW as second class game mode. You can do raid bosses in green gear so why should PvE players be rewarded for doing raids? See how ridiculous this sounds. Btw. If WvW infusions would boost my rewards in WvW to up to 20g/day then who cares if I have to spend some gold on it. They are not required in WvW but also do not effect your rewards in any way so don’t try to compare it that way. They have nothing in common to begin with. But by your logic guild catas, which are only in WvW needed, should also give me that advantage right? So if I buy/craft/what ever let’s say 1000 guild catas. Will this give me the ability to earn 20/g a day? Who can guess the answer.

    P.S.: Fractals earns you 1100g in 8 weeks. WvW 166g in 8 weeks. Divided that by the hours played to achieve that and you end up with 10g/h vs 0,3g/h. That you try to justify this can’t be described in words.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2020

    I mean if that's the case lets also just tell them to stop giving us exotic gear like warlords then if it's of no worth, jfc. Hey happy you earn thousands of gold in fractals, I really don't care, I earn what I need out of wvw alone.

    But keep throwing around badly calculated numbers, I'm sure the devs won't see right through that at all, and just throw up an extra 1000 golds in the skirmish track to make up for it.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Would adding 2 or 5 gold to the repeatable chests after earning 1450 pips be really all that much gold per hour? It depends on how you look at it.

    Let’s try it at 2 for regular repeatable chests and 5 for the final chest. That’s 15 gold for the full repeat. At 330 pips you can get that in 2.75 hours if you tick at 10 pips. That’s about 5.5 gold per hour.

    Of course, sPvP only gets rewards from the reward tracks and the league pip chests. So WvW has an “advantage” in earning bags from kills. But is that really all that lucrative on average? The answer is no in part to discourage farming other players in organized kill trading.

    But compared to PvE? A few hours is worth a lot more gold.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    Xen, remind me, did you play Warhammer Online?

    Yes and yes, it was like kill 25 enemy players or kill 50 of a certain class or race and you could get it from each of the 3 factions of your side. I don't remember them giving a lot of currency for them, like a couple silvers not gold, but then again their economy is different from gw2. Not sure if there was limitations to them either, other than having to go back to the npc to hand in.

    There was a mix of silver and gold. Private server carried those over as is and last time I was there it was that as well.

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Like I said I'd be more open to more gold as long as we have to play to earn it, if they toned down the participation you got for repairing and siege hits (like next to 0) I'd be on board for more gold.

    What I don't like with this thread overall is trying to skewer the numbers so much to make that point though, like let's not pretend we're completely starving for gold here and just be honest with the points.

    Agree not looking for passive gain, but if they went with a quest system with different requirement I think that would make it so it's more of an active addition.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Senqu.8054Senqu.8054 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    I mean if that's the case lets also just tell them to stop giving us exotic gear like warlords then if it's of no worth, jfc. Hey happy you earn thousands of gold in fractals, I really don't care, I earn what I need out of wvw alone.

    Lovely this mentality. „As Long as I have everything I need, i don’t care“. But this is not what it’s about. It’s about the fact that you earn by far less then in the other 2 game modes.

    But keep throwing around badly calculated numbers, I'm sure the devs won't see right through that at all, and just throw up an extra 1000 golds in the skirmish track to make up for it.

    I just took the numbers from this post but I give you that, I calculated the gold per hour from the wvw rewards in the past and it was around 1.7g/h or something so it’s slightly better ;). 10g/h in PvE is easy to reach and not even the best value you can get so still even if you would buff the WvW rewards by about 500% you would still earn less then in PvE.

    I never said throw up an extra 1000g in skirmish chests but they need to have extra gold. Your suggestion was to turn up the rewards for capping keeps, sorry to say that but suggestions like this are the real problem of this whole game. I personally don’t want to be forced from players like you to join this blob fights and server transferring. For you everything needs to be related to bigger fights more capping and decapping ppt here ppt there or pure mass-kills. You don’t want to see it but skirmish chests are the best reward system we have because they are not related to a specific playstyle as you all guys want it to be.

    Because I tell you what it’s not the kills it’s not the points at the end, it’s not the keeps that we capped, it’s about my time I spent in this game mode. It has the same value as someone who plays fractals. Why am I punished for playing my favorite game mode in terms of rewards?

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Senqu.8054 said:
    I just took the numbers from this post but I give you that, I calculated the gold per hour from the wvw rewards in the past and it was around 1.7g/h or something so it’s slightly better ;). 10g/h in PvE is easy to reach and not even the best value you can get so still even if you would buff the WvW rewards by about 500% you would still earn less then in PvE.

    I never said throw up an extra 1000g in skirmish chests but they need to have extra gold. Your suggestion was to turn up the rewards for capping keeps, sorry to say that but suggestions like this are the real problem of this whole game. I personally don’t want to be forced from players like you to join this blob fights and server transferring. For you everything needs to be related to bigger fights more capping and decapping ppt here ppt there or pure mass-kills. You don’t want to see it but skirmish chests are the best reward system we have because they are not related to a specific playstyle as you all guys want it to be.

    Because I tell you what it’s not the kills it’s not the points at the end, it’s not the keeps that we capped, it’s about my time I spent in this game mode. It has the same value as someone who plays fractals. Why am I punished for playing my favorite game mode in terms of rewards?

    Listen.
    This is my last response to you.
    I am not against raising the rewards for wvw.
    I am against posting obviously badly calculated numbers to try and prove this point.
    I am against lazy afk earned rewards.
    The participation system has a problem, I have pointed out the problem.
    I have never mentioned turning up rewards for capping keeps, now you are making kitten up to make your rant.
    I also do not want to reward zergs more for just zerging, I want a fair system for all players playing wvw, and while the skirmish participation has it's problems it is the right idea, I have said this before.
    I know the problems of increasing rewards through kills, caps, reward tracks, skirmish tracks, I look both ways on the arguments, before crossing the street, and posting in threads. You should too, and understand why the wvw systems are based on time gates rather than active gates compared to the other two modes.
    If you don't understand my simple points, that's your problem, carry on with your protest.
    Good day.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • Senqu.8054Senqu.8054 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Senqu.8054 said:
    I just took the numbers from this post but I give you that, I calculated the gold per hour from the wvw rewards in the past and it was around 1.7g/h or something so it’s slightly better ;). 10g/h in PvE is easy to reach and not even the best value you can get so still even if you would buff the WvW rewards by about 500% you would still earn less then in PvE.

    I never said throw up an extra 1000g in skirmish chests but they need to have extra gold. Your suggestion was to turn up the rewards for capping keeps, sorry to say that but suggestions like this are the real problem of this whole game. I personally don’t want to be forced from players like you to join this blob fights and server transferring. For you everything needs to be related to bigger fights more capping and decapping ppt here ppt there or pure mass-kills. You don’t want to see it but skirmish chests are the best reward system we have because they are not related to a specific playstyle as you all guys want it to be.

    Because I tell you what it’s not the kills it’s not the points at the end, it’s not the keeps that we capped, it’s about my time I spent in this game mode. It has the same value as someone who plays fractals. Why am I punished for playing my favorite game mode in terms of rewards?

    Listen.
    This is my last response to you.
    I am not against raising the rewards for wvw.
    I am against posting obviously badly calculated numbers to try and prove this point.

    10g/h vs 1,7g/h is very realistic

    I am against lazy afk earned rewards.
    The participation system has a problem, I have pointed out the problem.
    I have never mentioned turning up rewards for capping keeps, now you are making kitten up to make your rant.
    I also do not want to reward zergs more for just zerging, I want a fair system for all players playing wvw, and while the skirmish participation has it's problems it is the right idea, I have said this before.
    I know the problems of increasing rewards through kills, caps, reward tracks, skirmish tracks, I look both ways on the arguments, before crossing the street, and posting in threads. You should too, and understand why the wvw systems are based on time gates rather than active gates compared to the other two modes.
    If you don't understand my simple points, that's your problem, carry on with your protest.
    Good day.

    It was just oversimplified from my side but you said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    I do think it would be nice to have more personal achievements to earn more gold, and not the regular go cap a tower do 3 dailies and get 2 gold. I mean like interrupt players 5000 times and get 5g (repeatable), heal for 50k and get 5g (repeatable), things that require you to be active in the game. Of course like anything else that is susceptible to botting, which is why numbers will have to very high and gains very low, which means zerging is more profitable.. this is why we can't have nice things in the end...

    Which is also a method of shifting rewards to mass blob gameplay as you stated. I don’t care if it’s now keep capping or doing something x-hundert times. xD The suggestions from you guys are all the same. You tell people that kill quest rewards can be kind of abused but heal and other kitten not? You even get to the point where you tell people that you don’t need that many gold and use it as a kind of argument against pumping rewards up to a point where it’s balanced to PvE or what is this about? As I said a real problem for this community and i tell you WvW dies because of this mentality. If PvE would be threatened like this the players would protest. Skirmish chests/rewards is the only real way to go and it should not be a discussion of how to implement other ways to earn rewards but how to make the skirmish reward system better to not be abused for „afk-farmers“. It’s since 8 years the same discussion and it always gets slowed down by people like you and I tell you what, I’m just sick of it. Skirmish chests was one of the best things that happened to WvW and you still search for ways around it. It couldn’t be more counterproductive.

    And don’t worry you don’t need to answer me. We all will still talk about this whole subject in 8 more years from now when the servers getting turned off because people still arguing whether it’s okey to earn some gold from skirmish chests or not while the regular PvE bleb hasn’t something else to do in this game anymore because he already crafted every single item and gambles with ectos like a russian oligarch out of boredom now. As soon as you are interested in skins and in generell fashion wars you are lost as WvW player and this will most likely never change GG.

    This community can delete whole class mechanics from elite specializations if it cry’s loud enough but simply unite in subjects like this is not possible. Priority’s are set straight I guess.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/farming-tracker

    People can feel free to post some numbers. Will try to remember when I pve next week or something. ;) This is what happened last time when a thread like this came out last year-- we'll see how the numbers hold up : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72080/how-much-do-we-earn-on-average-in-an-hour-of-active-wvw/p2

    Note that I took numbers for WvW blobbing which didn't seem that bad. Havoc on an empty server though....

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Huh, someone pulled 6 words out of my paragraph and didn't bother to understand the entire point, how shocking.

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    https://gw2efficiency.com/account/farming-tracker

    People can feel free to post some numbers. Will try to remember when I pve next week or something. ;) This is what happened last time when a thread like this came out last year-- we'll see how the numbers hold up : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72080/how-much-do-we-earn-on-average-in-an-hour-of-active-wvw/p2

    Note that I took numbers for WvW blobbing which didn't seem that bad. Havoc on an empty server though....

    I would be more interested to see account values from people.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • I honestly didn't expect this post to generate the conversation it did, but a lot of the points brought up make a huge amount of sense.

    When originally writing, I was trying to analyze things from a low/middling case scenario.

    • PvP - 50/50 Win/Loss
    • WvW - Lowest Tier/Warscore
    • PvE - Slow(er) Fractal run

    Admittedly, CM+T4 fractals would be unfair to compare vs. 50/50 PvP & Lowest Tier WvW since that level of fractals is considered to be "high end fractals" even though once you get into CM the T4's feel like "easy mode" and some groups don't even bother with recs at that point. A more even comparison would be something like CM+T4 vs. WvW Silver Rank vs. PvP Gold 2-3 Div.

    In addition, my analysis was trying to focus on liquid gold due to the wildly fluctuating nature of RNGesus, so it was easier to earmark the gold rather than the drops that could be converted/sold.

    The basis of my argument was that WvW is a much higher time investment than PvP/PvE for roughly lesser gain. As well, that gain is tied to the market value of things whereas PvE/PvP gives you gold regardless of how the market is doing. Skirmish Chests can give you Unidentified Dye, but you only get 42 boxes for completing the Skirmish Track per week (more for the un-repeatable) which currently gives you merely 2g. I did not mention blueprints because honestly those have such low value on the TP at the moment (again, tied to TP) that they aren't worth getting into.

    Botting is the primary concern with this, as they just need to maintain T3+ participation to rack up gold which impacts the entire economy, but that's a similar problem with PvE leaching and PvP bots, so it's just an extension of an already existing issue.

    A few people suggested tying it to the non-repeatable skirmish tiers. Tying it to the final Skirmish chest of each tier would be a good way of ensuring people stay in WvW and compensate them for the time investment. If we wanted to flip this on its head, we could keep the current WvW Rewards while giving players who actively engage in WvW ways to increase pips:

    • +1 Pip for every 10 T0 Camps/Towers/Keeps Captured
    • +1 Pip for Flipping T1 Camps/Towers/Keeps
    • +2 Pip for Flipping T2 Camps/Towers/Keeps
    • +3 Pip for Flipping T3 Camps/Towers/Keeps

    That way, it promotes actively farming and roaming around, or getting into a big zerg and going after an entire BL/EBG and trying to capture as much as possible. It gives you pips for capturing T0 but you need to capture ten times the amount for relatively little gain, and it heavily promotes getting involved and taking down strong servers.

    That way you can increase the speed at which you complete the Skirmish Track to access the rewards. It doesn't fix the underlying nature of WvW income (tied to market & less baseline than PvP/Fractals) but increasing the speed is a good enough bandaid while they address the underlying problems.

    Thoughts?

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    Some observations:

    • Many players don't do T4s let alone CMs. Anyone without ascended armor isn't going to be doing T4s. If they are they are being carried basically. For tiers lower than T4 you're looking at typically 3-5 fractal encryption per scale on top of whatever loot comes from the daily completion and mobs inside the fractal. I joined a few T1/T2 groups this past week to gauge exactly how long it would take to guide people that have no clue what they're doing and you would be surprised at how long some people take. Whereas a T4+recs group that is smooth can easily finish 6 fractals in an hour or so.
    • PvP season achievements (not titles) are balanced around 25 wins for 60 games. That's around silver 2 or 3 tier I think. The major issue with PvP is people afking / botting hundreds of not thousands of games (which is something that should either be stopped automatically via verification after the PvP Byzantium chest loops a certain amount of times or otherwise).

    Instead of liquid gold to stop variance from market fluctuations on materials, just reward things that benefit primarily WvW players. That primarily means easier obtained ascended select stats for people willing to put in the effort as well as exotic stat select armor. As I stated above and for months if not years, grandmaster mark shards need to go and be replaced by the grandmaster mark chests. Ascended trinkets , infused rings, and backpiece are already obtainable but due to the grandmaster mark timegate you'd have to dump more money into ascended armor/weapons from WvW than crafting it outright. Having easier access to armor from within WvW improves QoL (quality of life) for commanders and for other people on the server because you can't expect people new to WvW to have stats only used in WvW such as trailblazer or celestial.

    In addition , anything that doesn't promote protecting and attacking T3 keeps/towers is a failure to me. Those provide the most skirmish tick so anything that overlooks their importance is not helpful whatsoever other than for ktraining. That is why I think the WvW veteran creature slayer daily should be ditched for WvW caravan defender daily , where a caravan going to an untiered keep/tower can be defended. The effort would be similarly low but people wouldn't afk at the spawnspots.

    From fast farming eu , the valuation on a skirmish chest is ~12 silvers ; badge of honor is valued at 38 copper per badge, and testimonies of heroics < 2 silver per. Icebrood Saga repeatable reward track is valued at 24g per completion and so are Sandswept Isles and Istan reward tracks. Gift of battle is valued at 18g but I am assuming that is not counting the value of making a legendary. The problem with tying even greater rewards to reward tracks is there are quite a few boosters.

    Also, because gold is transferable, there's nothing stopping people from botting , afking, or cheating rewards and transferring those resources to another account, which is another argument for accountbound things that WvW players normally require resources to acquire. It could be simple things such as a reduction in siege material upgrade cost, tactics/traps cost, guild siege from guild missions in WvW, +5 WvW infusion drops from lords, a 32 slot siegemaster satchel requiring testimonies of heroics, an upgrade path for mistforged weapons that allows to be upgraded to legendary stats without any skin change, a basic collection requiring all mistforged hero weapons that awards legendary sigil, ascended mistforged weapons rewarded for maxed WvW titles, allowing +5 WvW infusions to merge with +9 AR infusions to be useful in fractals, etc.

    Ultimately, I believe the emphasis ought to be on what WvW players are likely to use the gold on in the game mode rather than just handing out extra gold. Net income would be boosted for those who are active in the mode if the running expenses incurred are decreased.
    That means:

    • Weapons/armor (i.e. Mistforged Triumphant or Triumphant Hero armor, Mistforged Hero's weapns)
    • Trinkets/rings/amulet/backpiece (covered by Warbringer as well as Conflux and Mist Band (Infused) , Mist Pendant, Mist Talisman)
      ** timegate = 350 tickets on mist band, 260 tickets for mist pendant, 175 tickets for mist talisman

    • Siege (Superior is covered mostly but guild siege could be provided more readily)

    • Utility/Food ---- there's currently no commonly used group-based Utility outside of sharpening stone station (which is impractical given the cost), nor is there a heal utility available from canned food crate or portable provisioners
    • Tactics/Improvements for structures (the high cost is the domain of a guild, but alleviated somewhat via Skirmish chests)
    • Traps/tricks (alleviated somewhat via Skirmish chests)
    • Inventory space for pre-purchased siege not from portable provisioner or guild siege
    • WvW +5 infusions
  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Geoff Fey.1035 said:
    I honestly didn't expect this post to generate the conversation it did, but a lot of the points brought up make a huge amount of sense.

    When originally writing, I was trying to analyze things from a low/middling case scenario.

    • PvP - 50/50 Win/Loss
    • WvW - Lowest Tier/Warscore
    • PvE - Slow(er) Fractal run

    Admittedly, CM+T4 fractals would be unfair to compare vs. 50/50 PvP & Lowest Tier WvW since that level of fractals is considered to be "high end fractals" even though once you get into CM the T4's feel like "easy mode" and some groups don't even bother with recs at that point. A more even comparison would be something like CM+T4 vs. WvW Silver Rank vs. PvP Gold 2-3 Div.

    In addition, my analysis was trying to focus on liquid gold due to the wildly fluctuating nature of RNGesus, so it was easier to earmark the gold rather than the drops that could be converted/sold.

    The basis of my argument was that WvW is a much higher time investment than PvP/PvE for roughly lesser gain. As well, that gain is tied to the market value of things whereas PvE/PvP gives you gold regardless of how the market is doing. Skirmish Chests can give you Unidentified Dye, but you only get 42 boxes for completing the Skirmish Track per week (more for the un-repeatable) which currently gives you merely 2g. I did not mention blueprints because honestly those have such low value on the TP at the moment (again, tied to TP) that they aren't worth getting into.

    Botting is the primary concern with this, as they just need to maintain T3+ participation to rack up gold which impacts the entire economy, but that's a similar problem with PvE leaching and PvP bots, so it's just an extension of an already existing issue.

    A few people suggested tying it to the non-repeatable skirmish tiers. Tying it to the final Skirmish chest of each tier would be a good way of ensuring people stay in WvW and compensate them for the time investment. If we wanted to flip this on its head, we could keep the current WvW Rewards while giving players who actively engage in WvW ways to increase pips:

    • +1 Pip for every 10 T0 Camps/Towers/Keeps Captured
    • +1 Pip for Flipping T1 Camps/Towers/Keeps
    • +2 Pip for Flipping T2 Camps/Towers/Keeps
    • +3 Pip for Flipping T3 Camps/Towers/Keeps

    That way, it promotes actively farming and roaming around, or getting into a big zerg and going after an entire BL/EBG and trying to capture as much as possible. It gives you pips for capturing T0 but you need to capture ten times the amount for relatively little gain, and it heavily promotes getting involved and taking down strong servers.

    That way you can increase the speed at which you complete the Skirmish Track to access the rewards. It doesn't fix the underlying nature of WvW income (tied to market & less baseline than PvP/Fractals) but increasing the speed is a good enough bandaid while they address the underlying problems.

    Thoughts?

    I would add double those pips for defending the objectives as well so that there is more incentive to defend rather then flip:
    * +2 Pip for every 10 T0 Camps/Towers/Keeps Defended
    * +2 Pip for defending T1 Camps/Towers/Keeps
    * +4 Pip for defending T2 Camps/Towers/Keeps
    * +6 Pip for defending T3 Camps/Towers/Keeps

    War score placement at the end of the skirmish rewards you with pips based on your score that go towards that weeks Skirmish track.
    +300 Pips +150 skirmish tickets for 1st Place
    +200 Pips +75 skirmish tickets for 2nd Place
    +100 Pips + 37 skirmish tickets for 3rd Place

    This would guarantee some extra repeatable chests, and help max out the track for those that were close, but didn't have the time that week to participate as much as they liked. You'd have to be logged in at reset to get these rewards though, and so long as you had gained pips that week you get the reward.

  • @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    I would add double those pips for defending the objectives as well so that there is more incentive to defend rather then flip:
    * +2 Pip for every 10 T0 Camps/Towers/Keeps Defended
    * +2 Pip for defending T1 Camps/Towers/Keeps
    * +4 Pip for defending T2 Camps/Towers/Keeps
    * +6 Pip for defending T3 Camps/Towers/Keeps

    I like the idea of promoting defense. A lot of people mostly either ignore defense entirely or use it as bait for fights. There really isn't much incentive for defending a location after capturing it until it hits T1 (mostyl T2) onwards. I'm on the fence about defense giving more pips vs attacking. Some defenses can go for a long time with the 3-5 minute timer running several times over as the battle goes on--couple that with the fact that sometimes you don't get participation for it due to A) not being there long enough or B) the fight petering around at the half-timer mark and then the game considers you not participating, so it could be frustrating.

    If we're keeping the timer for defense, I'd say:

    • +1 pip for every 5 T0 defended
    • +1 pip for T1 & T2
    • +2 Pip for T3

    The larger defenses (T2+T3) can sometimes run for 30 minutes depending on participation, so you'd net a decent amount of pips just by participating (in this case that'd be 6 pips for T1/T2 or 12 pips for T3, in addition to those from the regular timer).

    It's also fair vs. attacking because you typically can cap a lot more (getting pips via this system) rather than defending one static area. The idea of needing only 5 T0 defended is to promote value in "paper" so that some people might still protect them. It also is a gimme to the roamers/scouts/camp guards who look after the smaller areas while running dolyaks.

    War score placement at the end of the skirmish rewards you with pips based on your score that go towards that weeks Skirmish track.
    +300 Pips +150 skirmish tickets for 1st Place
    +200 Pips +75 skirmish tickets for 2nd Place
    +100 Pips + 37 skirmish tickets for 3rd Place

    This would guarantee some extra repeatable chests, and help max out the track for those that were close, but didn't have the time that week to participate as much as they liked. You'd have to be logged in at reset to get these rewards though, and so long as you had gained pips that week you get the reward.

    I really like this idea. I'd say it should be built into the Skirmish 2-hr timer:

    • 2x Pips + 2Y tickets for 1st place
    • 1x Pips + 1Y tickets for 2nd place
    • 1Y tickets for 3rd place

    At the end of the week there should be some kind of reward but I'm leery about suggesting tickets. If it becomes tickets, then it would definitely require the ticket cost for everything to be increased because of the influx week after week. If they make it so that you need to complete Gold Track to be able to access that reward, that would help with ensuring a goodly time investment for the reward at the end.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Geoff Fey.1035 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    I would add double those pips for defending the objectives as well so that there is more incentive to defend rather then flip:
    * +2 Pip for every 10 T0 Camps/Towers/Keeps Defended
    * +2 Pip for defending T1 Camps/Towers/Keeps
    * +4 Pip for defending T2 Camps/Towers/Keeps
    * +6 Pip for defending T3 Camps/Towers/Keeps

    I like the idea of promoting defense. A lot of people mostly either ignore defense entirely or use it as bait for fights. There really isn't much incentive for defending a location after capturing it until it hits T1 (mostyl T2) onwards. I'm on the fence about defense giving more pips vs attacking. Some defenses can go for a long time with the 3-5 minute timer running several times over as the battle goes on--couple that with the fact that sometimes you don't get participation for it due to A) not being there long enough or B) the fight petering around at the half-timer mark and then the game considers you not participating, so it could be frustrating.

    If we're keeping the timer for defense, I'd say:

    • +1 pip for every 5 T0 defended
    • +1 pip for T1 & T2
    • +2 Pip for T3

    The larger defenses (T2+T3) can sometimes run for 30 minutes depending on participation, so you'd net a decent amount of pips just by participating (in this case that'd be 6 pips for T1/T2 or 12 pips for T3, in addition to those from the regular timer).

    Fair, but the defense timer is 5 minutes, so that 30 minute fight would give several rewards.

    It's also fair vs. attacking because you typically can cap a lot more (getting pips via this system) rather than defending one static area. The idea of needing only 5 T0 defended is to promote value in "paper" so that some people might still protect them. It also is a gimme to the roamers/scouts/camp guards who look after the smaller areas while running dolyaks.

    War score placement at the end of the skirmish rewards you with pips based on your score that go towards that weeks Skirmish track.
    +300 Pips +150 skirmish tickets for 1st Place
    +200 Pips +75 skirmish tickets for 2nd Place
    +100 Pips + 37 skirmish tickets for 3rd Place

    This would guarantee some extra repeatable chests, and help max out the track for those that were close, but didn't have the time that week to participate as much as they liked. You'd have to be logged in at reset to get these rewards though, and so long as you had gained pips that week you get the reward.

    I really like this idea. I'd say it should be built into the Skirmish 2-hr timer:

    • 2x Pips + 2Y tickets for 1st place
    • 1x Pips + 1Y tickets for 2nd place
    • 1Y tickets for 3rd place

    At the end of the week there should be some kind of reward but I'm leery about suggesting tickets. If it becomes tickets, then it would definitely require the ticket cost for everything to be increased because of the influx week after week. If they make it so that you need to complete Gold Track to be able to access that reward, that would help with ensuring a goodly time investment for the reward at the end.

    Fair point as well. Bonus pips per 2hr skirmish placement would be nice. Final rewards for the week requiring gold completion would be fair as well. The extra tickets would be for normalizing the time delta for leggy armor between game modes.

  • Sznurek.8791Sznurek.8791 Member ✭✭

    We have this discussions for really long time and it's gets worse with each patch(as the gap gets bigger).
    I love WvW as a gamemode but I just feel "scammed" out of rewards while playing it.
    Devs please increase the gold rewards, and do it quite fast. You can even advertise it in patch teaser that there will be increased rewards for WvW, for some players this really can be a game changer.

  • Blackarps.1974Blackarps.1974 Member ✭✭✭

    Gold is a better option than items because gold holds its value better. The only other option would be to add a vendor in spawn for badges of honor to allow us to buy various tiers of items. The problem with that solution is that a lot of us have 50k+ badges and it would crash the economy unless a weekly cap is added to the buy options.

    If raw gold is added to the tracks, Anet will need to step up their game to kick the people doing minimum work to keep participation up to semi-AFK farm gold. One way to solve this is by capping an objective or killing a player is the only way to award participation. Defending, sentries, and monuments would have to be ruled out for participation which wouldn't be a big deal.

    Either way, we need more gold income and I would prefer raw gold. Even 50 extra gold per week would help a lot. 10,000 rank, hundreds of thousands of kills...nothing to show for it.

  • waxx.3619waxx.3619 Member ✭✭

    I don't know why you guys bother it's a dead mode from support perspective. Anet don't care about WvWvW. Which is sad because in my opinion it is the only mode in the game that has any sense of a community.