Stop Capitulating to PvP

I come from GWs so what I am about to say is what used to be. And I am returning from a long spell, so what I am observing just reading a little bit of forums has caused me to type this out cause you're going the way of killing what originally used to be awsome in the beggining of GUILDWARS.

First off, why is everybody wanting skills nerfed all the way across the board, when did nerfing across the board become acceptable? There needs to be 2 Balance teams if they're gonna do that. PvE is different than PvP, so making nerfs across the board is just gonna kill the game. And from what I have seen on here it already is killing it. One team to balance both the Player and the NPCs in PvE, and one team strictly PvP. GWs used to be two seperate games in one and now Arenanet is going the way of the other games. Do you know how hard it is to find a good solid PvE game outside of single player? I like the interaction with other players in a PvE environment, and if I wish to PvP then I can do it. And what is this health pool differences, the only ones that should have a higher health pool is the tanks with less damage, higher health pool and higher armor gives you the aggro priority, seems pretty simple to me. The Healers and the DPS should all have the same health pool in the same equivelant gear.

GWs had skills only usable in PvE and ones for PvP so it didn't mess with the PvE viability. WvW is a mashup of both PvE and PvP with a higher PvE priority to it, so wanting skills nerfed in WvW is petty and capitulating. If you dont' like how WvW is played then go to the other PvP only content. I hope this gets around to the GW2 devs and get them back on the right track of what was GWs, this isn't WoW or ESO or any other MMORPG out there, so stop developing it like the rest and stand out again amoung the gaming community.

It's been said so many times now that WvW can't be balanced at all, fixing broken stuff sure? Have it fixed, you'd notice how some changes are even unique to WvW. Otherwise, there has been a PvP dedicated team now and you look at anything that was done lately, if there's any balance change done, they are done in PvP only.

I have been seeing builds that were once viable in PvE being nerfed cause they're too OP in PvP, cause if people are complaining about it in PvE then maybe they ought to look at what they could be doing better on their own by changing it or a better rotation. Also it should be looked into who is making the complaints too, F2P should be able to use the forum for research but not to complain about the free game that they get to play. And the devs need to have the balance tested by players before it gets implemented.

They did split all most balance changes between game modes about half a year ago Also, I disagree with this somewhat--alot of the problem is that PvE has been trivialised by power creep and honestly it could've been cut back alot too.

People doing 30-40k DPS is exactly why we don't have build diversity. The DPS of a full support build is less than 1k. So no one's going to want to build for tank, healer or control support in encounters and throw peanuts at the enemy, and the group isn't ever going to want that either beyond the bare minimum of support needed for the encounter because why lose 4000% DPS from one person?

The competitive modes were migrating to this system too, luckily the devs put a stop to it. Nerfs are needed to keep a game healthy in all modes, and then you can do Quality of Life (QoL) sweeps to add fun things back in.

@"Hannelore.8153" said:They did split all most balance changes between game modes about half a year ago Also, I disagree with this somewhat--alot of the problem is that PvE has been trivialised by power creep and honestly it could've been cut back alot too.

People doing 30-40k DPS is exactly why we don't have build diversity. The DPS of a full support build is less than 1k. So no one's going to want to build for tank, healer or control support in encounters and throw peanuts at the enemy, and the group isn't ever going to want that either beyond the bare minimum of support needed for the encounter because why lose 4000% DPS from one person?

The competitive modes were migrating to this system too, luckily the devs put a stop to it. Nerfs are needed to keep a game healthy in all modes, and then you can do Quality of Life (QoL) sweeps to add fun things back in.

I think there needs to be an overhaul to the whole of everything, health to damage ratio is way out of hand I think to an extreme, and I am going off GW2s own words. "No race or profession is unequal". We both know that those words are untrue, and by extreme I am referring to the Eles having the lowest health and is supposed to be the highest damage and yet that's not true. And then the Necro not really fitting in. Players wanting Mesmer minions killable when they're manifestations of things. These are just some of the things that are extreme examples.

By rework the whole of everything. Everybody has the same health in the same equivalent gear, damage taken is different depending on armor type and such, and then rework skills to where everything is equal across the board. Then you can get out of the rut of having to use the only viable build to being able to experiment with different builds and not a cookie cutter build that not everyone is going to be proficient in to be able to do the content that they're going to miss out on.

PvE and WvW should be separate from PvP only content, that's what Guildwars used to be. I say WvW too because it's usually story based and the only PvP available to lower levels and up. And that way there is no capitulating to the PvPers that generally only PvP and could care less about what it does to the PvE content that they don't do. And then you add a resilience to WvW that you wouldn't have when you're doing PvE so that those same skills take longer to kill a player. Then the only thing you'd have to change is the resilience and not the skills themselves.

@ZipTaw.9841 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:They did split all most balance changes between game modes about half a year ago Also, I disagree with this somewhat--alot of the problem is that PvE has been trivialised by power creep and honestly it could've been cut back alot too.

People doing 30-40k DPS is exactly why we don't have build diversity. The DPS of a full support build is less than 1k. So no one's going to want to build for tank, healer or control support in encounters and throw peanuts at the enemy, and the group isn't ever going to want that either beyond the bare minimum of support needed for the encounter because why lose 4000% DPS from one person?

The competitive modes were migrating to this system too, luckily the devs put a stop to it. Nerfs are needed to keep a game healthy in all modes, and then you can do Quality of Life (QoL) sweeps to add fun things back in.

Personally i think that's just a dream there is always going to be some classes in some ways good and others. EG: you already have tempest and guardians with firebrands as top level healers atm and firebrands offer tons of buffs. Best bet is to work on those unique features of other classes if you want t hem to be viable in their own ways such as rangers with the spirit stones and their own. I think some instances there is just no way you are going to get nec to be useful in the same way a mesmer is with its unique buffs such as quickness and alacrity. And eles have a ton of stuff they could be messing with to make them useful such as their auras which are unique only to elementalists.

Even eles agree that auras should be their strong points that make them desired for.

Wouldn't making everyone the same and same dmg kill the game?

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:They did split all most balance changes between game modes about half a year ago Also, I disagree with this somewhat--alot of the problem is that PvE has been trivialised by power creep and honestly it could've been cut back alot too.

People doing 30-40k DPS is exactly why we don't have build diversity. The DPS of a full support build is less than 1k. So no one's going to want to build for tank, healer or control support in encounters and throw peanuts at the enemy, and the group isn't ever going to want that either beyond the bare minimum of support needed for the encounter because why lose 4000% DPS from one person?

The competitive modes were migrating to this system too, luckily the devs put a stop to it. Nerfs are needed to keep a game healthy in all modes, and then you can do Quality of Life (QoL) sweeps to add fun things back in.

Guildwars was like that, even if you made casters the highest damage because of how little armor they have someone is going to say that it's OP. And that is what starts the the Nerf war, not too long after that players are all saying the same thing. And if it was a dream alot of it makes sense. All of this that I am typing is all theory craft and more constructive then just saying the same thing over and over again, remove this, remove that. There is always going to be some players that are better than others, and nerfing isn't the answer.

@ZipTaw.9841 said:I have been seeing builds that were once viable in PvE being nerfed cause they're too OP in PvP, cause if people are complaining about it in PvE then maybe they ought to look at what they could be doing better on their own by changing it or a better rotation. Also it should be looked into who is making the complaints too, F2P should be able to use the forum for research but not to complain about the free game that they get to play. And the devs need to have the balance tested by players before it gets implemented.

Can you give examples? I am not aware of any meta PvE build that was nerfed due to PvP.

@ZipTaw.9841 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:They did split all most balance changes between game modes about half a year ago Also, I disagree with this somewhat--alot of the problem is that PvE has been trivialised by power creep and honestly it could've been cut back alot too.

People doing 30-40k DPS is exactly why we don't have build diversity. The DPS of a full support build is less than 1k. So no one's going to want to build for tank, healer or control support in encounters and throw peanuts at the enemy, and the group isn't ever going to want that either beyond the bare minimum of support needed for the encounter because why lose 4000% DPS from one person?

The competitive modes were migrating to this system too, luckily the devs put a stop to it. Nerfs are needed to keep a game healthy in all modes, and then you can do Quality of Life (QoL) sweeps to add fun things back in.

It goes deeper than that some classes have innate tools which can make them unique and have strengths that could be improved upon to make them desired rather than make everyone the same.

@otto.5684 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:I have been seeing builds that were once viable in PvE being nerfed cause they're too OP in PvP, cause if people are complaining about it in PvE then maybe they ought to look at what they could be doing better on their own by changing it or a better rotation. Also it should be looked into who is making the complaints too, F2P should be able to use the forum for research but not to complain about the free game that they get to play. And the devs need to have the balance tested by players before it gets implemented.

I didn't specify on this posting, I have commented on others posts and am not going to repeat or link every post as examples, you can look and see what I have commented on , but I don't always comment on everything I read. What I have posted here is a generalization of what I am reading. And what I have witnessed playing other titles, including Guildwars.

@ZipTaw.9841 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:I have been seeing builds that were once viable in PvE being nerfed cause they're too OP in PvP, cause if people are complaining about it in PvE then maybe they ought to look at what they could be doing better on their own by changing it or a better rotation. Also it should be looked into who is making the complaints too, F2P should be able to use the forum for research but not to complain about the free game that they get to play. And the devs need to have the balance tested by players before it gets implemented.

Buddy, you created a thread claiming that PvP based nerfs are nerfing PvE builds. I have played this game for years, and ever since the splits happened, years ago, this has not been the case.

I am saying you are flat out wrong. You think otherwise, proof it. And if you want to be taken some what seriously you need to present info in concise manner, not tell people to go dig posts you had in other threads.

@otto.5684 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:I have been seeing builds that were once viable in PvE being nerfed cause they're too OP in PvP, cause if people are complaining about it in PvE then maybe they ought to look at what they could be doing better on their own by changing it or a better rotation. Also it should be looked into who is making the complaints too, F2P should be able to use the forum for research but not to complain about the free game that they get to play. And the devs need to have the balance tested by players before it gets implemented.

And you aren't reading what I am saying either, I have already said it's my observation from what I am reading on the forum. Can you prove what you're saying? Give me examples and how you're right instead of just saying that I am wrong. Then I can see what you're talking about, and I will give you one example even though it's a repeat of something I have already commented about on another post. Mesmers and minions and their boons in WvW.

@ZipTaw.9841 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:I have been seeing builds that were once viable in PvE being nerfed cause they're too OP in PvP, cause if people are complaining about it in PvE then maybe they ought to look at what they could be doing better on their own by changing it or a better rotation. Also it should be looked into who is making the complaints too, F2P should be able to use the forum for research but not to complain about the free game that they get to play. And the devs need to have the balance tested by players before it gets implemented.

The burden of proof is on you, actually. You made the claim, now back it up with something concrete.

@ZipTaw.9841 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:I have been seeing builds that were once viable in PvE being nerfed cause they're too OP in PvP, cause if people are complaining about it in PvE then maybe they ought to look at what they could be doing better on their own by changing it or a better rotation. Also it should be looked into who is making the complaints too, F2P should be able to use the forum for research but not to complain about the free game that they get to play. And the devs need to have the balance tested by players before it gets implemented.

If you claim something is broken need to proof how. Not the other way round. Also, i dunno why do I have to repeat this again, but if you are creating a thread for a specific purpose you need to put the information in this thread, supporting that. You cannot say I posted somewhere else. This is dumb.

As for Mesmer, mirage and chrono work fine as dps in PvE. The nerf to support chrono has nothing to do with PvP. That was purely a PvE a change for PvE purposes. None of the mirage nerfs in PvP copies over to PvE.

@Hannelore.8153 said:They did split all most balance changes between game modes about half a year ago Also, I disagree with this somewhat--alot of the problem is that PvE has been trivialised by power creep and honestly it could've been cut back alot too.

People doing 30-40k DPS is exactly why we don't have build diversity. The DPS of a full support build is less than 1k. So no one's going to want to build for tank, healer or control support in encounters and throw peanuts at the enemy, and the group isn't ever going to want that either beyond the bare minimum of support needed for the encounter because why lose 4000% DPS from one person?

The competitive modes were migrating to this system too, luckily the devs put a stop to it. Nerfs are needed to keep a game healthy in all modes, and then you can do Quality of Life (QoL) sweeps to add fun things back in.

Ironically, this system was demanded by elitists claiming that role-based raiding is the solution to all PvE woes and will make GW2 a better and more appealing game. They were wrong. Factually, they were wrong. Player metrics and everything, based on dev outreach before PoF. Probably why Strike Missions became a thing.

We've had roles in this game since its launch in competitive. It's not good for the game, and it's why the game launched with the ideology of everyone is self-sufficient. It's why rangers were kicked on sight for how many years in organized WvW? It's just not a good idea to follow this principle and betrays the pillars of what this game was successful on.

The fact is most of the problems with PvE are numeric. It's easy to tweak a skill down when it overperforms.Most of the problems with the PvP modes are design-level. You can't fix design without a total rework, and ANet's refusal to do so and continuous design powercreep are why the competitive modes have bled players for the past seven years.

Design for PvP, tweak PvE as needed. Problems are solved for everyone.Keep designing for PvE and tweaking for PvP and both communities will get upset.

@ZipTaw.9841 said:I come from GWs so what I am about to say is what used to be. And I am returning from a long spell, so what I am observing just reading a little bit of forums has caused me to type this out cause you're going the way of killing what originally used to be awsome in the beggining of GUILDWARS.

First off, why is everybody wanting skills nerfed all the way across the board, when did nerfing across the board become acceptable? There needs to be 2 Balance teams if they're gonna do that. PvE is different than PvP, so making nerfs across the board is just gonna kill the game. And from what I have seen on here it already is killing it. One team to balance both the Player and the NPCs in PvE, and one team strictly PvP. GWs used to be two seperate games in one and now Arenanet is going the way of the other games. Do you know how hard it is to find a good solid PvE game outside of single player? I like the interaction with other players in a PvE environment, and if I wish to PvP then I can do it. And what is this health pool differences, the only ones that should have a higher health pool is the tanks with less damage, higher health pool and higher armor gives you the aggro priority, seems pretty simple to me. The Healers and the DPS should all have the same health pool in the same equivelant gear.

GWs had skills only usable in PvE and ones for PvP so it didn't mess with the PvE viability. WvW is a mashup of both PvE and PvP with a higher PvE priority to it, so wanting skills nerfed in WvW is petty and capitulating. If you dont' like how WvW is played then go to the other PvP only content. I hope this gets around to the GW2 devs and get them back on the right track of what was GWs, this isn't WoW or ESO or any other MMORPG out there, so stop developing it like the rest and stand out again amoung the gaming community.

You sound like you never actually read any patchnotes, each gamemode has its own balancing, in pve almost every skill has other numbers than pvp or wvw.

And why would you even upset about that? did some changes made the big bad computer controlled enemies go boom in 3 sec, instead of the 1sec from before?If anything nerfes to pve would actually make it challenging again

@otto.5684 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:I have been seeing builds that were once viable in PvE being nerfed cause they're too OP in PvP, cause if people are complaining about it in PvE then maybe they ought to look at what they could be doing better on their own by changing it or a better rotation. Also it should be looked into who is making the complaints too, F2P should be able to use the forum for research but not to complain about the free game that they get to play. And the devs need to have the balance tested by players before it gets implemented.

ofc so many skills, traits, mechanics have changed because of pvpnot as much as the other way around, but still plentlye.g. scourge shade instant cast, clunckiness for axe ambush or straight up deletion of traits like CI are all because of pvp

PvE balance shouldn't even be an issue. Just balance PvE encounters around whatever balance is necessary for PvP.

@DonNee.5128 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:I have been seeing builds that were once viable in PvE being nerfed cause they're too OP in PvP, cause if people are complaining about it in PvE then maybe they ought to look at what they could be doing better on their own by changing it or a better rotation. Also it should be looked into who is making the complaints too, F2P should be able to use the forum for research but not to complain about the free game that they get to play. And the devs need to have the balance tested by players before it gets implemented.

CI is not a PvE valid trait, and never was. Axe ambush has never changed as far as I am aware and currently has no issues PvE (axe does in sPvP due to damage split). Mirage as condi dps is fully viable in PvE.

I don’t remember shade change in full details, but scourge was never viable in group PvE due to lack of damage. Changing the shade mechanic has nothing to do with that.

Point is, the build viability for condi mirage and for scourge did not change in PvE based on these changes.

@otto.5684 said:

@DonNee.5128 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:I have been seeing builds that were once viable in PvE being nerfed cause they're too OP in PvP, cause if people are complaining about it in PvE then maybe they ought to look at what they could be doing better on their own by changing it or a better rotation. Also it should be looked into who is making the complaints too, F2P should be able to use the forum for research but not to complain about the free game that they get to play. And the devs need to have the balance tested by players before it gets implemented.

viability is more open for interpretation in pve, there is even topics about removing this for pve too - i agree not the strongest but still was because of pvp even people disliked itas for axe ambushes, you now need to face your target which is very annoying in open world pve - as a result i think most mirages uses staff now in ow pvenot saying pvp shifts pve in this game but for sure it has unnecessary impact on it

@DonNee.5128 said:not saying pvp shifts pve in this game but for sure it has unnecessary impact on itWell put!

The more they try to balance pvp the less fun pve become... The change trait and skill to be less OP in pvp yet they become unusable in pve like skull 5 of holo...

@ZipTaw.9841 said:I come from GWs so what I am about to say is what used to be. And I am returning from a long spell, so what I am observing just reading a little bit of forums has caused me to type this out cause you're going the way of killing what originally used to be awsome in the beggining of GUILDWARS.

First off, why is everybody wanting skills nerfed all the way across the board, when did nerfing across the board become acceptable? There needs to be 2 Balance teams if they're gonna do that. PvE is different than PvP, so making nerfs across the board is just gonna kill the game. And from what I have seen on here it already is killing it. One team to balance both the Player and the NPCs in PvE, and one team strictly PvP. GWs used to be two seperate games in one and now Arenanet is going the way of the other games. Do you know how hard it is to find a good solid PvE game outside of single player? I like the interaction with other players in a PvE environment, and if I wish to PvP then I can do it. And what is this health pool differences, the only ones that should have a higher health pool is the tanks with less damage, higher health pool and higher armor gives you the aggro priority, seems pretty simple to me. The Healers and the DPS should all have the same health pool in the same equivelant gear.

GWs had skills only usable in PvE and ones for PvP so it didn't mess with the PvE viability. WvW is a mashup of both PvE and PvP with a higher PvE priority to it, so wanting skills nerfed in WvW is petty and capitulating. If you dont' like how WvW is played then go to the other PvP only content. I hope this gets around to the GW2 devs and get them back on the right track of what was GWs, this isn't WoW or ESO or any other MMORPG out there, so stop developing it like the rest and stand out again amoung the gaming community.

Many of us could not agree more.

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:They did split all most balance changes between game modes about half a year ago Also, I disagree with this somewhat--alot of the problem is that PvE has been trivialised by power creep and honestly it could've been cut back alot too.

People doing 30-40k DPS is exactly why we don't have build diversity. The DPS of a full support build is less than 1k. So no one's going to want to build for tank, healer or control support in encounters and throw peanuts at the enemy, and the group isn't ever going to want that either beyond the bare minimum of support needed for the encounter because why lose 4000% DPS from one person?

The competitive modes were migrating to this system too, luckily the devs put a stop to it. Nerfs are needed to keep a game healthy in all modes, and then you can do Quality of Life (QoL) sweeps to add fun things back in.

That does not mean the meta tight either, just because it may seem impossible to have really close to perfect balance does not mean it is not, I will say in my experience in many mmos they where far more balanced then a few of the more modern mmos like gw2. It seems many times there was maybe 2 or 3 classes with more quite a few more viable builds then others. What should matter is getting at equal as possible otherwise it really is not fun for anyone, you do not throw your hands up and give up and make flavor of the month worse then it already is.

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZipTaw.9841 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:They did split all most balance changes between game modes about half a year ago Also, I disagree with this somewhat--alot of the problem is that PvE has been trivialised by power creep and honestly it could've been cut back alot too.

People doing 30-40k DPS is exactly why we don't have build diversity. The DPS of a full support build is less than 1k. So no one's going to want to build for tank, healer or control support in encounters and throw peanuts at the enemy, and the group isn't ever going to want that either beyond the bare minimum of support needed for the encounter because why lose 4000% DPS from one person?

The competitive modes were migrating to this system too, luckily the devs put a stop to it. Nerfs are needed to keep a game healthy in all modes, and then you can do Quality of Life (QoL) sweeps to add fun things back in.

What i mean is you are going to have some classes that are better vs others and pure balance like chess is a false hope. Even world of warcraft has issues with balance.

I'm not saying to throw hands up and give up but rather balance classes in such a way that you need to find tactics to overcome a class that is good versus that kind of thing.

What they should do, is make so no class hard counters another to the point where you get pinned down and destroyed and unable to retaliate, because that is simply not fun.

Playing a ele for instance and getting destroyed by a holosmith with no problem at all, and completely able to pin down the ele is not good if there is no counter for the holo while playing ele.