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Stats & Gear are the biggest issues for WvW

Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited July 18, 2020 in WvW

For offensive, using the exact same "gear" as SPvP(marauder amulet vs full ascended marauder gear) I do 50% more damage. I only have 1k more hp but deal 50% more damage. This is even without factoring in the many sigils WvW has that can crit for upwards of 4k or food/potions.

On the defense side, you have gear like "minstrels" which provides ZERO offensive stats and is a pure defensive set of gear. This said gear was removed from SPvP due to creating tanky full support builds that just stand there and never die. You can build this way in WvW, which allows boring game play from both sides.

It's very clear WvW was designed and balanced before ascended gear, or any of these new pure defensive stat combinations. Perhaps WvW gear should be completely revamped and re-examined with the amount of stats players get now with ascended gear? People are either too tanky or do too much damage, even WITH the global 33% damage nerf. This creates a very imbalanced and unfun PvP experience for the majority of people involved.

You can either gear to do too much damage, or gear to be too tanky. "Balanced" builds are actually useless in WvW, unlike SPvP, because the amount of offensive stats you have in WvW is far, far, far too high to make any build besides pure glass or pure defense playable. Full defense is also too tanky because you have access to stats SPvP specifically had removed due to making people unkillable. This is just not good design overall.

It's very easy to understand why this is an issue: You gain more weapon damage due to ascended(10% damage) and ascended stats in general, but just the weapon power alone is enough to sway offensive to be too high. On top of this, as mentioned, there are stat combos that have no place in a PvP mode such as minstrels and trailblazers which makes gearing pure defensive also too strong.

The issue is it makes it so you're either full glass, or full tank(+condi/healing) and no inbetween while SPvP severely punishes you for going full glass and does NOT allow full defense at all. A zerker thief with 11k HP is a free kill in SPvP, but in WvW the same thief is also a free kill in full marauders due to how high damage is.

At it's core, WvW PvP is massively imbalanced due to gear stats. This is the very first and most important aspect of any PvP game mode, and I feel WvW fails at it and needs to re-examine gear stats. Without the core, the rest of the game mode falls apart entirely.

<1

Comments

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    It's very clear WvW was designed and balanced before ascended gear, or any of these new pure defensive stat combinations.

    It was designed for soldier and dire.

  • Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    qq gw2 is unbalanced... until you try any of the other big mmos out there and you realise how well off we actually are

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    @Shiyo.3578

    Also, WvW isn’t structured “for e-sports” player versus player, where a handful of players fight over small circles to 500pts. WvW is this...

    And the inspiration for WvW came from Dark Age of Camelot Realm versus Realm versus Realm gameplay.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Shiyo.3578

    Also, WvW isn’t structured “for e-sports” player versus player, where a handful of players fight over small circles to 500pts. WvW is this...

    And the inspiration for WvW came from Dark Age of Camelot Realm versus Realm versus Realm gameplay.

    I'm not sure what this has to do with player power being so high in WvW compared to PvP.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Make amulets great again !

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    A wvw player wants to hit that comfortable threshold of gear stats, traits, and personal skill that lets them fight and get bags but also survive if they need to. I find that maybe 2/3 (I'm full of kitten, I really have no idea) of players I see in WvW hit that threshold while not very many can master their pace of being hit, to recovering, to flipping and dominating. They can pack on as much vitality and even a good deal of toughness but if they have no flak other than some passive stuff their meta build happens to have then once I've opened them up with boon steal, control, and secondary mod from control like interrupts or blinds and so on, even a massive health pool depletes pretty fast.

    It's not very balanced but there is a sort of WvW ecosystem to figure out how to survive in. I sort of agree on the imbalance, I just don't think it's a problem. We also need to take into account those secondary mods and conditional skills like damage reduction/increase traits that can make an engage to a fight give you a false template of what their build really and where you can start dismantling them once they've gassed out a bit.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Shiyo.3578

    Also, WvW isn’t structured “for e-sports” player versus player, where a handful of players fight over small circles to 500pts. WvW is this...

    And the inspiration for WvW came from Dark Age of Camelot Realm versus Realm versus Realm gameplay.

    I'm not sure what this has to do with player power being so high in WvW compared to PvP.

    Spvp uses the amulet system, and has removed some stats for balancing 5v5. WvW isn’t 5v5. WvW has had the same open gear system since launch. Over 8 years players have made gears and stuff for WvW and the devs aren’t going to tell players they are removing any gear. WvW wasn’t meant to be “fairer e-sports”, like the devs attempt to do inside of Spvp. WvW was primarily designed for hundreds of players to battle across 4 maps, not primarily designed for e-sports balance for your duels inside of WvW.

    We have been over this hundreds of times and the devs are not changing the gear system inside of WvW. And the devs said NO.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Shiyo.3578

    Also, WvW isn’t structured “for e-sports” player versus player, where a handful of players fight over small circles to 500pts. WvW is this...

    And the inspiration for WvW came from Dark Age of Camelot Realm versus Realm versus Realm gameplay.

    I'm not sure what this has to do with player power being so high in WvW compared to PvP.

    Spvp uses the amulet system, and has removed some stats for balancing 5v5. WvW isn’t 5v5. WvW has had the same open gear system since launch. Over 8 years players have made gears and stuff for WvW and the devs aren’t going to tell players they are removing any gear. WvW wasn’t meant to be “fairer e-sports”, like the devs attempt to do inside of Spvp. WvW was primarily designed for hundreds of players to battle across 4 maps, not primarily designed for e-sports balance for your duels inside of WvW.

    We have been over this hundreds of times and the devs are not changing the gear system inside of WvW. And the devs said NO.

    I don't see what esports balance has to do with WvW. Are you admitting WvW is intentionally imbalanced and badly designed?

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Shiyo.3578

    Also, WvW isn’t structured “for e-sports” player versus player, where a handful of players fight over small circles to 500pts. WvW is this...

    And the inspiration for WvW came from Dark Age of Camelot Realm versus Realm versus Realm gameplay.

    I'm not sure what this has to do with player power being so high in WvW compared to PvP.

    Spvp uses the amulet system, and has removed some stats for balancing 5v5. WvW isn’t 5v5. WvW has had the same open gear system since launch. Over 8 years players have made gears and stuff for WvW and the devs aren’t going to tell players they are removing any gear. WvW wasn’t meant to be “fairer e-sports”, like the devs attempt to do inside of Spvp. WvW was primarily designed for hundreds of players to battle across 4 maps, not primarily designed for e-sports balance for your duels inside of WvW.

    We have been over this hundreds of times and the devs are not changing the gear system inside of WvW. And the devs said NO.

    I don't see what esports balance has to do with WvW. Are you admitting WvW is intentionally imbalanced and badly designed?

    The devs said no.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Shiyo.3578

    Also, WvW isn’t structured “for e-sports” player versus player, where a handful of players fight over small circles to 500pts. WvW is this...

    And the inspiration for WvW came from Dark Age of Camelot Realm versus Realm versus Realm gameplay.

    I'm not sure what this has to do with player power being so high in WvW compared to PvP.

    Spvp uses the amulet system, and has removed some stats for balancing 5v5. WvW isn’t 5v5. WvW has had the same open gear system since launch. Over 8 years players have made gears and stuff for WvW and the devs aren’t going to tell players they are removing any gear. WvW wasn’t meant to be “fairer e-sports”, like the devs attempt to do inside of Spvp. WvW was primarily designed for hundreds of players to battle across 4 maps, not primarily designed for e-sports balance for your duels inside of WvW.

    We have been over this hundreds of times and the devs are not changing the gear system inside of WvW. And the devs said NO.

    I don't see what esports balance has to do with WvW. Are you admitting WvW is intentionally imbalanced and badly designed?

    The devs said no.

    You still are not answering the question. What does "esports" have to do with balance? Do you think that for some reason, if they attempt to "balance" wvw it'll be bad?

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Shiyo.3578

    Also, WvW isn’t structured “for e-sports” player versus player, where a handful of players fight over small circles to 500pts. WvW is this...

    And the inspiration for WvW came from Dark Age of Camelot Realm versus Realm versus Realm gameplay.

    I'm not sure what this has to do with player power being so high in WvW compared to PvP.

    Spvp uses the amulet system, and has removed some stats for balancing 5v5. WvW isn’t 5v5. WvW has had the same open gear system since launch. Over 8 years players have made gears and stuff for WvW and the devs aren’t going to tell players they are removing any gear. WvW wasn’t meant to be “fairer e-sports”, like the devs attempt to do inside of Spvp. WvW was primarily designed for hundreds of players to battle across 4 maps, not primarily designed for e-sports balance for your duels inside of WvW.

    We have been over this hundreds of times and the devs are not changing the gear system inside of WvW. And the devs said NO.

    I don't see what esports balance has to do with WvW. Are you admitting WvW is intentionally imbalanced and badly designed?

    The devs said no.

    You still are not answering the question. What does "esports" have to do with balance? Do you think that for some reason, if they attempt to "balance" wvw it'll be bad?

    You honestly don't know why the devs made the amulet system and removed some stats from spvp??????

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No amulet system for WvW. That's for PvP, WvW is endgame and that is building sets that work towards your defined role, playstyle, fightsize and I would daresay connection. If anything we could use some more stat combos. And no I don't think they should be balancing around zerker as the core set either.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    No amulet system for WvW. That's for PvP, WvW is endgame and that is building sets that work towards your defined role, playstyle, fightsize and I would daresay connection. If anything we could use some more stat combos. And no I don't think they should be balancing around zerker as the core set either.

    No one said anything about an amulet system...just re-examining player power in WvW.

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Damage is already too low when people abuse elite specs. No idea why anet think that it's good idea just let players spam boons, auras and kitten 24/7.

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    WvW is open stat wild wild west. Yeeehaww grandmaaww. Part of the fun is learning how to survive what you can, and know when something is trouble. If we change anything I'd say go for target caps, boons/condi, and stacks (maybe limit the amount of different boon/condi a single person can take, would be fun if you had to juggle the priority) as they all have a cascading effect on server performance which I'd rather see dealt with. Ah, who am I kidding

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    You are calling for a nerf to WvW gears? OMG. On top of the quarterly nerf patches and last year super hugh stats nerfs across the board, you still find players in WvW too OP and at the same time tanky and isn't this outright contradicting? OP, honestly I think WvW is not for you.

    Doesn't too tanky balanced out with too much damaged? Instead of taking the same ends to compare, you are taking two opposite ends and compare, and you expect a balance? lol Do you want every one in WvW to have a standard set of stats regardless of your level and gears? Yes that would balance things. But wait, how about those skilled players? Ok let's cripple them and then all should be balanced.

    The developers have nerfed practically every thing from power to buffs to heals and even the Warclaw has turned into a useless fashion mount in WvW, there are still calls for nerfs? If you think players are still too OP or tanky, it is only because you are comparing the best against the worst and you expect a balance to that??

    ANet, WvW as it is today the player base is suffering a slow death. Don't kill it sooner. Don't repeat the same mistake you made years ago when you introduced the ascended gears and made a hugh chunk of your supporters left the games. You cannot afford that mistake again, not today. Well, unless your intention is to kill WvW, go ahead and listen to more of the cryers.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    @Mil.3562 said:
    You are calling for a nerf to WvW gears? OMG. On top of the quarterly nerf patches and last year super hugh stats nerfs across the board, you still find players in WvW too OP and at the same time tanky and isn't this outright contradicting? OP, honestly I think WvW is not for you.

    Doesn't too tanky balanced out with too much damaged? Instead of taking the same ends to compare, you are taking two opposite ends and compare, and you expect a balance? lol

    The developers have nerfed practically every thing from power to buffs to heals and even the Warclaw has turned into a useless fashion mount in WvW, there are still calls for nerfs? If you think players are still too OP or tanky, it is only because you are comparing the best against the worst and you expect a balance to that??

    WvW as it is today, the player base are suffering a slow death. Don't kill it sooner.

    Yes, WvW is either pure tank builds never dying or pure glass builds 1 shotting eachother. The amount of stats in WvW is too high both defensively and offensively. SPvP has MUCH better balanced character power.
    I do 14k death's justice in WvW without even using food or potions and have 17.6k HP. In SPvP I do 9k. and have 16.6k HP using the same "gear", marauders in every slot and marauders amulet in SPvP. If I went pure zerker glass, I'm sure I could do enough damage to ONE SHOT my marauder build. The Damage: HP ratio of "balanced" builds is out of whack in WvW, turning it into 1 shots or invincible tanks. This creates an unhealthy game.

    Go roam in WvW and tell me what builds you often see, I guarantee it's mostly people playing pure glass 1 shotting or trailblazer bunkers.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    On one hand ppl deal too much dmg and on the other they are too tanky? Doesnt look like a gear issue to me generally.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    @RedShark.9548 said:
    On one hand ppl deal too much dmg and on the other they are too tanky? Doesnt look like a gear issue to me generally.

    That's precisely the issue. You can either gear to do too much damage, or gear to be too tanky. "Balanced" builds are actually useless in WvW, unlike SPvP, because the amount of offensive stats you have in WvW is far, far, far too high to make any build besides pure glass or pure defense playable. Full defense is also too tanky because you have access to stats SPvP specifically had removed due to making people unkillable. This is just not good design overall.

    It's very easy to understand why this is an issue: You gain more weapon damage due to ascended(10% damage) and ascended stats in general, but just the weapon power alone is enough to sway offensive to be too high. On top of this, as mentioned, there are stat combos that have no place in a PvP mode such as minstrels and trailblazers which makes gearing pure defensive also too strong.

    The issue is it makes it so you're either full glass, or full tank(+condi/healing) and no inbetween while SPvP severely punishes you for going full glass and does NOT allow full defense at all. A zerker thief with 11k HP is a free kill in SPvP, but in WvW the same thief is also a free kill in full marauders due to how high damage is.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Mil.3562 said:
    You are calling for a nerf to WvW gears? OMG. On top of the quarterly nerf patches and last year super hugh stats nerfs across the board, you still find players in WvW too OP and at the same time tanky and isn't this outright contradicting? OP, honestly I think WvW is not for you.

    Doesn't too tanky balanced out with too much damaged? Instead of taking the same ends to compare, you are taking two opposite ends and compare, and you expect a balance? lol

    The developers have nerfed practically every thing from power to buffs to heals and even the Warclaw has turned into a useless fashion mount in WvW, there are still calls for nerfs? If you think players are still too OP or tanky, it is only because you are comparing the best against the worst and you expect a balance to that??

    WvW as it is today, the player base are suffering a slow death. Don't kill it sooner.

    Yes, WvW is either pure tank builds never dying or pure glass builds 1 shotting eachother. The amount of stats in WvW is too high both defensively and offensively. SPvP has MUCH better balanced character power.
    I do 14k death's justice in WvW without even using food or potions and have 17.6k HP. In SPvP I do 9k. and have 16.6k HP using the same "gear", marauders in every slot and marauders amulet in SPvP. If I went pure zerker glass, I'm sure I could do enough damage to ONE SHOT my marauder build. The Damage: HP ratio of "balanced" builds is out of whack in WvW, turning it into 1 shots or invincible tanks. This creates an unhealthy game.

    Go roam in WvW and tell me what builds you often see, I guarantee it's mostly people playing pure glass 1 shotting or trailblazer bunkers.

    Should we now balance all professions inside of wvw for roaming and 1v1 encounters?

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Mil.3562 said:
    You are calling for a nerf to WvW gears? OMG. On top of the quarterly nerf patches and last year super hugh stats nerfs across the board, you still find players in WvW too OP and at the same time tanky and isn't this outright contradicting? OP, honestly I think WvW is not for you.

    Doesn't too tanky balanced out with too much damaged? Instead of taking the same ends to compare, you are taking two opposite ends and compare, and you expect a balance? lol

    The developers have nerfed practically every thing from power to buffs to heals and even the Warclaw has turned into a useless fashion mount in WvW, there are still calls for nerfs? If you think players are still too OP or tanky, it is only because you are comparing the best against the worst and you expect a balance to that??

    WvW as it is today, the player base are suffering a slow death. Don't kill it sooner.

    Yes, WvW is either pure tank builds never dying or pure glass builds 1 shotting eachother. The amount of stats in WvW is too high both defensively and offensively. SPvP has MUCH better balanced character power.
    I do 14k death's justice in WvW without even using food or potions and have 17.6k HP. In SPvP I do 9k. and have 16.6k HP using the same "gear", marauders in every slot and marauders amulet in SPvP. If I went pure zerker glass, I'm sure I could do enough damage to ONE SHOT my marauder build. The Damage: HP ratio of "balanced" builds is out of whack in WvW, turning it into 1 shots or invincible tanks. This creates an unhealthy game.

    Go roam in WvW and tell me what builds you often see, I guarantee it's mostly people playing pure glass 1 shotting or trailblazer bunkers.

    I have 4 characters built for WvW, believe me I know what is happening there? It is ok as it is today, unless you expect every one to take five minutes to kill each other : D

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Mil.3562 said:
    You are calling for a nerf to WvW gears? OMG. On top of the quarterly nerf patches and last year super hugh stats nerfs across the board, you still find players in WvW too OP and at the same time tanky and isn't this outright contradicting? OP, honestly I think WvW is not for you.

    Doesn't too tanky balanced out with too much damaged? Instead of taking the same ends to compare, you are taking two opposite ends and compare, and you expect a balance? lol

    The developers have nerfed practically every thing from power to buffs to heals and even the Warclaw has turned into a useless fashion mount in WvW, there are still calls for nerfs? If you think players are still too OP or tanky, it is only because you are comparing the best against the worst and you expect a balance to that??

    WvW as it is today, the player base are suffering a slow death. Don't kill it sooner.

    Yes, WvW is either pure tank builds never dying or pure glass builds 1 shotting eachother. The amount of stats in WvW is too high both defensively and offensively. SPvP has MUCH better balanced character power.
    I do 14k death's justice in WvW without even using food or potions and have 17.6k HP. In SPvP I do 9k. and have 16.6k HP using the same "gear", marauders in every slot and marauders amulet in SPvP. If I went pure zerker glass, I'm sure I could do enough damage to ONE SHOT my marauder build. The Damage: HP ratio of "balanced" builds is out of whack in WvW, turning it into 1 shots or invincible tanks. This creates an unhealthy game.

    Go roam in WvW and tell me what builds you often see, I guarantee it's mostly people playing pure glass 1 shotting or trailblazer bunkers.

    Should we now balance all professions inside of wvw for roaming and 1v1 encounters?

    If any small scale fight is utterly unplayable, maybe.

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I haven't meet any one shot builds months. I play pure oneshot build, but you can't really one shot any roamer that play some try hard build. If i oneshot somebody it's always some bronze invader who use full berserker.

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Shiyo.3578

    Also, WvW isn’t structured “for e-sports” player versus player, where a handful of players fight over small circles to 500pts. WvW is this...

    And the inspiration for WvW came from Dark Age of Camelot Realm versus Realm versus Realm gameplay.

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Mil.3562 said:
    You are calling for a nerf to WvW gears? OMG. On top of the quarterly nerf patches and last year super hugh stats nerfs across the board, you still find players in WvW too OP and at the same time tanky and isn't this outright contradicting? OP, honestly I think WvW is not for you.

    Doesn't too tanky balanced out with too much damaged? Instead of taking the same ends to compare, you are taking two opposite ends and compare, and you expect a balance? lol

    The developers have nerfed practically every thing from power to buffs to heals and even the Warclaw has turned into a useless fashion mount in WvW, there are still calls for nerfs? If you think players are still too OP or tanky, it is only because you are comparing the best against the worst and you expect a balance to that??

    WvW as it is today, the player base are suffering a slow death. Don't kill it sooner.

    Yes, WvW is either pure tank builds never dying or pure glass builds 1 shotting eachother. The amount of stats in WvW is too high both defensively and offensively. SPvP has MUCH better balanced character power.
    I do 14k death's justice in WvW without even using food or potions and have 17.6k HP. In SPvP I do 9k. and have 16.6k HP using the same "gear", marauders in every slot and marauders amulet in SPvP. If I went pure zerker glass, I'm sure I could do enough damage to ONE SHOT my marauder build. The Damage: HP ratio of "balanced" builds is out of whack in WvW, turning it into 1 shots or invincible tanks. This creates an unhealthy game.

    Go roam in WvW and tell me what builds you often see, I guarantee it's mostly people playing pure glass 1 shotting or trailblazer bunkers.

    Should we now balance all professions inside of wvw for roaming and 1v1 encounters?

    If any small scale fight is utterly unplayable, maybe.

    So we cycle back to what the wvw mode was primarily designed for.

    You want small scale balance? Spvp exists for you.

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    Oh, and how is it possible that people can both do too much damage and also be too tanky?

    don't worry it's just silver division poit of view forgeting that wvw same as pvp, is team play not 1vs1

    Yes, WvW is either pure tank builds never dying or pure glass builds 1

    No it's not, if you run that builds, you are tank but can't kill anyone and die on 8-13 hits, or if your berserk, you geting 3 shoted cuz you not managed your def stats well

    wvw is best pvp in my opinion, as you have much crativity and teory craftig how you want make your character, finding balance is the adveturre by itself

    pvp is more skill play as you don't have much choises to stats, and many boons are nerfed in duration

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If inspiration came from dark age of camelot why single player can contribute so little? Where are big aoe skills that actually hurt blob if they are so bad that they let you cast one?

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Junkpile.7439 said:
    If inspiration came from dark age of camelot why single player can contribute so little? Where are big aoe skills that actually hurt blob if they are so bad that they let you cast one?

    Since when does “inspiration” mean “duplicate”? And those types of AoEs are a major issue, plus there are also balance and technical reasons why the devs don’t do it.

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    I do not agree with your assessment that balanced builds are too weak. If anything, it is the opposite of that. When I started using weaver in WvW I started with Marauder/Berserker Gear, but I switched to Marshalls, a hybrid build, specifically because the additional recovery made me stronger overall than going for pure offense.

    Anecdotes aside, there's math behind it. It's an old geometry problem: how to maximize area with a set perimeter. The stats in GW2 work similarly: One side of the rectangle is your durability; how long you live. The second side is your DPS. Stacking all of your points into DPS gives you a tall, thin rectangle. You do a lot of damage, but you don't do it for very long. This makes you vulnerable to ambushes, invulnerability skills, and crowd control, because you won't live long enough to go through them. In contrast, an extremely durable build with no damage has little to no effect at all. It doesn't matter how long you live if nearly every other build can out-heal your DPS on whatever random build they are running.

    The answer to the maximizing problem is simple: It's a square. I.E. if you have 40 meters of rope, if you make a square that is 10x10 you will have the maximum area contained within it. Extending and shortening any other side gives you a smaller area. Similarly, the time to live (in seconds) multiplied by damage per second (in... seconds) give you the total overall damage that your build could do. I.E. if you have 15k DPS and you live for 15 seconds, then you'll do roughly 225k damage in your life span. Adjust this in either way, I.E. doing 25k DPS for 5 seconds, then you'll just do 125k damage in your lifespan. Any cumulative bonuses gained from going heavy into one or the other direction doesn't compensate for the massive inefficiency of a lopsided build.

    Originally the model I used for this was effective health (health, then multiplied by armor / 1920) multiplied by effective power (power x (1-crit chance + crit chance x crit damage), but when you factor in heals and condition damage it gets a bit muddy. I still use the effective health numbers to see how much I gain and lose overall when choosing runes/sigils/food and such.

    Also, Berserker stats were available at launch. We've always had the ability to do this much damage. Ascended bumped it up by about 11%, which in a PVP fight is only so much.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't understand the discussion.
    What the op said is just correct. WvW is absolutely terribly balanced stat wise. If you put two people in berserker they can instagib each other which leads to the stupid situation that some classes with access to other tools that are not depend as much on gear like teleports, stealth and invulnerabilites are cheesing their way through wvw - at least in smallscale.
    This is different in large scale because you bring full tanked up healers and supporters with a ton of boons, cleanses and heals.
    When I choose to run minstrel on Ele I can't even bunker vs ranger or thief. Normally a bunker should be able to outlast a pure dps class and at least reach a draw. This is not happening in wvw.

    WSR is the only server where people call in /t for help when dueling.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    I don't know why people think its different in any other RvR game.

    Most of them have a Trinity, which is going to mean groups made of DPS, tanks and healers and they're going to work more or less exactly the same as in GW2; the DPS will kill you if they reach you (or in a few hits if ranged), the tanks will stall your entire army for a little while and be impossible to kill 1v1, and the healers will heal, buff, and revive allies. As you would expect from a teamplay game.

    The only difference in GW2 is that any class can perform these roles, instead of specific ones. Nothing more. Trust me, I've played enough of these games to know that there's little variation in how the actual combat plays out, that's just RvR.

    Its important not to confuse RvR with PvP. Just because you fight players doesn't make it PvP.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 15k hours, ~27k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Alisha Kei/Druid(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW)

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Shiyo.3578

    Also, WvW isn’t structured “for e-sports” player versus player, where a handful of players fight over small circles to 500pts. WvW is this...

    And the inspiration for WvW came from Dark Age of Camelot Realm versus Realm versus Realm gameplay.

    I'm not sure what this has to do with player power being so high in WvW compared to PvP.

    Spvp uses the amulet system, and has removed some stats for balancing 5v5. WvW isn’t 5v5. WvW has had the same open gear system since launch. Over 8 years players have made gears and stuff for WvW and the devs aren’t going to tell players they are removing any gear. WvW wasn’t meant to be “fairer e-sports”, like the devs attempt to do inside of Spvp. WvW was primarily designed for hundreds of players to battle across 4 maps, not primarily designed for e-sports balance for your duels inside of WvW.

    We have been over this hundreds of times and the devs are not changing the gear system inside of WvW. And the devs said NO.

    I don't see what esports balance has to do with WvW. Are you admitting WvW is intentionally imbalanced and badly designed?

    The imbalance from wvw has also nothing to do with stats.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    If a skill is listed to do ~1000 damage in full zerker gear and you only got ~250% crit damage, then why does it in practice do 5000-8000+ damage?

    Partial answer: it sure as kitten isnt the gear.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    Frankly I think the issue is more that hybrid armors are seriously lacking in flavor. Marauders is far more popular than zerkers for many WvW builds for a good reason. I'd expect demolishers to be equally popular over it. Even something like Paladins or Avatar would likely have a mix spread into some builds especially on the small scale side of things.

    Ultimately I don't think the idea that people specialize in a stat is an issue. That is precisely what you should expect and want from a large scale combat mode. The argument that the stat difference from baseline is to high... I'd argue would be better looked at from the angle of all the extra stat increases you get in WvW from things like presence of the keep first.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    I've been testing builds in WvW and SPvP replicating nearly identical stat combinations. In WvW, these builds routinely get instantly killed in 1 second by a single person in WvW. While inside of SPvP, I will have 0-1 deaths every single match, kite around 2-3 people for a very long time, resustain, and kill people 1v1.

    There is something I'm missing, or stats in WvW are very, very messed up. I cannot find a single build in WvW that doesn't randomly get INSTANTLY killed by players while still having enough damage to 1v1.

    What's going on? What am I doing wrong?

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    I've been testing builds in WvW and SPvP replicating nearly identical stat combinations. In WvW, these builds routinely get instantly killed in 1 second by a single person in WvW. While inside of SPvP, I will 0-1 deaths every single match, kite around 2-3 people for a very long time, resustain, and kill people 1v1.

    There is something I'm missing, or stats in WvW are very, very messed up. I cannot find a single build in WvW that doesn't randomly get INSTANTLY killed by players while still having enough damage to 1v1.

    What's going on? What am I doing wrong?

    You are ignoring that gear like dire and trailblazer or soldier exists in wvw and berserker and marauder need enough punch to be able to deal with these attribute combinations.

    PvP has become an oversimplified game mode. ANet could basically remove everything except marauder and carrion amulet. Wouldn't make much of a difference to the current state.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    I've been testing builds in WvW and SPvP replicating nearly identical stat combinations. In WvW, these builds routinely get instantly killed in 1 second by a single person in WvW. While inside of SPvP, I will 0-1 deaths every single match, kite around 2-3 people for a very long time, resustain, and kill people 1v1.

    There is something I'm missing, or stats in WvW are very, very messed up. I cannot find a single build in WvW that doesn't randomly get INSTANTLY killed by players while still having enough damage to 1v1.

    What's going on? What am I doing wrong?

    You are ignoring that gear like dire and trailblazer or soldier exists in wvw and berserker and marauder need enough punch to be able to deal with these attribute combinations.

    PvP has become an oversimplified game mode. ANet could basically remove everything except marauder and carrion amulet. Wouldn't make much of a difference to the current state.

    I have 2700 armor, +40% boon duration, nearly perma prot, and I'm being 1 shot instantly in WvW. In SPvP I run demo amulet with rev rune which is the same amount of armor but a LOT less boon duration. I am never one shot in SPvP.

    Weapon damage is the culprit I think, as pvp amulets give you very very similar stats to ascended gear in WvW.

    It makes pure 1 shot glass cannon builds far too rewarding in WvW on classes that can evade/invul/block for mitigation instead of relying on raw health, healing and armor.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    I have 2700 armor, +40% boon duration, nearly perma prot, and I'm being 1 shot instantly in WvW.

    Have you tried playing better?

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    I have 2700 armor, +40% boon duration, nearly perma prot, and I'm being 1 shot instantly in WvW.

    Have you tried playing better?

    Considering I don't die in SPvP often(0-1 deaths per match) and routinely kite 2-3 people until they disengage and NEVER get 1 shot, this is absolutely not a skill issue.

    Thanks for your unhelpful contribution, though.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    I have 2700 armor, +40% boon duration, nearly perma prot, and I'm being 1 shot instantly in WvW.

    Have you tried playing better?

    Considering I don't die in SPvP often(0-1 deaths per match) and routinely kite 2-3 people until they disengage and NEVER get 1 shot, this is absolutely not a skill issue.

    Thanks for your unhelpful contribution, though.

    Well what are people supposed to say?

    No one gets reasonably one shot at 2700 armor with perma protection unless it's trying to engage a 50 man zerg alone.

    Even when I run my trailblazer and fight someone that makes it feel like I'm wearing melted butter for armor, I'm not 1 shotted.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    You're laser-focused on blaming the base damage of ascended weapons when plenty of people are running around with regular ol' exotics on alts, smurf accounts, or meme builds and racking up kills just the same.

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    I have 2700 armor, +40% boon duration, nearly perma prot, and I'm being 1 shot instantly in WvW.

    Have you tried playing better?

    Considering I don't die in SPvP often(0-1 deaths per match) and routinely kite 2-3 people until they disengage and NEVER get 1 shot, this is absolutely not a skill issue.

    Thanks for your unhelpful contribution, though.

    You DO realise that WvW and sPvP are completely different game modes, don't you? What works in one will most certainly not work in another. So like some said --- just try getting better.

  • jsp.6912jsp.6912 Member ✭✭✭

    true, i don't understand how minstrel, trailblazer can exist seriously this kind of stat carry so hard bad player

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    I have 2700 armor, +40% boon duration, nearly perma prot, and I'm being 1 shot instantly in WvW.

    Have you tried playing better?

    Considering I don't die in SPvP often(0-1 deaths per match) and routinely kite 2-3 people until they disengage and NEVER get 1 shot, this is absolutely not a skill issue.

    There is no bronze division in wvw.

    The serious part of my posting: 2700 armor and protection is a damage reduction of roughly 50%. Hardly any encounter will oneshot you. As long as you don't play an 11k health class at base health, I think you are exaggerating.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Damage in this mode is higher. Do not face tank. Face tank is death. If anything the greater need to avoid damage makes WvW a crucible to better your 1vX fighting ability. This is a game mode where a Rapid Fire from a Soulbeast STILL does +24k after the great Nerf Patch. Go tinker in gw2Skills in the WvW mode. You'll find plenty of combinations that can still hit +16k versus 2700 armor. Not saying that most of those would be playable, or even good, but such builds still exist. Even running 50/50 Sentinel/Marauder I can hit a thief for 8k on an Eviscerate.

    In fact with the better gear choices and the ability to mix/match you should be able to create something more durable but still hits like a truck when you leverage your traitlines, and I think that might be what you are missing. WvW is a game mode that gives you more rope to hang yourself with, but it is also the game mode where you can push portions of traitlines to the extreme given the greater flexibility of stats and gear.

  • MrForz.1953MrForz.1953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    I have 2700 armor, +40% boon duration, nearly perma prot, and I'm being 1 shot instantly in WvW.

    Have you tried playing better?

    Considering I don't die in SPvP often(0-1 deaths per match) and routinely kite 2-3 people until they disengage and NEVER get 1 shot, this is absolutely not a skill issue.

    Thanks for your unhelpful contribution, though.

    Well what are people supposed to say?

    No one gets reasonably one shot at 2700 armor with perma protection unless it's trying to engage a 50 man zerg alone.

    Even when I run my trailblazer and fight someone that makes it feel like I'm wearing melted butter for armor, I'm not 1 shotted.

    It's mostly a gross exaggeration unsurprisingly, knowing the person. I sometimes can't be bothered to bring my gear and end up roaming with viper stats, even then the one-shots from the classes and specs wielding it are rare and even more rarely instant unless I got caught with my pants down by a glass Soulbeast.

    Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Pirate - Jade Quarry