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Soldier's Gear

Coming back to the game after a few years away, I found that several of my newer characters, made around the time Path of Fire had come out, had a full set of Soldier's Exotic Gear in their bags.

I can't imagine any good use for gear with these stats; Power, Toughness and Vitality.
It seems like even if I was hoping to try out raiding and wanted my character to be a tank, this wouldn't be my choice of gear.

Has there ever been a build that made smart use of Soldier's gear? Am I missing something? What do people do with this free gear? I noticed I cannot break it down with salvaging. I'm hesitant to just destroy a whole complete set of gear - but that seems like the logical move just to get inventory space back.

Just say no to butt-flaps.

Comments

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    Sounds like the free gear you get with a level 80 boost.

    Yes, it is trash. Soldier gear is really not very good at all. It has some niche use if you want to make a Champ soloing build (But there are better options and various classes can actually still just solo Champs while wearing full Berserker gear)

    It is however, useful for its intended purpose, which is to stop newbies from getting rekt after using their shiny new level 80 boost and trying to participate in level 80 content (Especially if they hop right into HoT/PoF which has some very deadly enemies in it).

    Beyond that, just delete the gear once you've got some actual stuff with good stats on as there's nothing else you can do with it (Though, I haven't checked if you can toss that stuff into the Mystic Toilet... I know other unsalvagable/unsellable stuff that you get from level up rewards/personal story can but haven't tested the free gear from level boosts)

    Cat: Meow.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Unless it's ascended destroy it. Destroy it with fire and then bury it in a deep hole.

    I dont raid but I'm pretty sure "tanks" dont exist. You're either dps or support healer.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Soldier gear has only one purpose I can think of: To help new players not die in two seconds after boosting to 80. The set deals no damage, but new players would deal no damage dead anyway.

  • Kichwas.7152Kichwas.7152 Member ✭✭✭

    Thanks for the thoughts folks.

    So basically it's of limited value once skill is up there - but could still have good utility in someting like a WvW zerg where there are more people hitting you than you can even see on the screen.

    I've got these sets on a Mesmer I have built to be a Chrono, and a Ranger I have built to be a Druid... it looks like I set those up right before I'd left the game, to have as options against my normal mesmer and ranger... only to come back and see we now have multiple builds... but oh well... I can still find use for those two. Maybe I'll make them into WvW characters.

    Just say no to butt-flaps.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2020

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Until you get ascended gear or a particular build, Soldiers is pretty good for WvW. It is also good for casual PVE.

    Contrary to popular belief, Soldiers is statistically one of the best sets in the game. The combination of stats it has means that you are very durable while having surprisingly high damage for how tough to kill you are. There's some math behind it, but its pretty complicated. The reason why we all recommend berserkers for PVE is because active defenses take care of most threats, enrage timers or event timers exist, and because it is better for farming gold to kill things quickly and move on. But, if you're in an area with high sustained damage (such as WvW) and you aren't being pressured into maximizing DPS due to timers or peer pressure, then Soldiers gear is an excellent option.

    Power simply doesn't do much by itself. You need crit rate (precision) and crit damage (ferocity) to get anything out of it, and with most builds you can't skimp too much or you will deal really poor damage anyway. For example, a comparison.

    Here's a video from a player who runs tanky power gear with no precision or ferocity. His build also seems very survival-oriented on top of that. Obviously, the strategy is to outlast and he passes the test with flying colors! He doesn't seem remotely pressured even though he basically facetanks the entire fight with a flamethrower! Pretty impressive as this boss routinely wipes groups of players in open world!

    But is it high damage? Do the math. A 7.5 minute kill against a boss with around 750k health. That's about 1.7k DPS. I had a celestial tempest healer build I ran back in HoT that could beat him in 6 minutes. Celestial is a very tanky set, but it does have some of the 3 stats you need to deal power damage. Unfortunately, it isn't enough and paired with a defensive build the same as the scrapper in this video, the result isn't much higher damage (about 2.1k DPS).

    To put that in perspective, here's a video of my fire weaver solo against the same boss. I'm playing a condition-based build, which doesn't require additional stats to be effective the way power builds do. I'm also playing a fairly aggressive build on a class built for dealing damage. As a result, I defeat this boss in 50 seconds while dealing 15.7k DPS - more than 9 times as much as the defensive scrapper running only power stat for offense.

    You may also notice my health never dips below 66% despite never using an active heal or rotating into water at any point. Because I am able to run vitality/toughness without sacrificing damage, I am passively pretty tanky. Combine that with traits and utilities designed to allow me to continue applying damage while evading and I am very hard to kill but the damage never slows!

    I don't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with running soldier gear. But if you're going to run tanky you are objectively far better off running condition damage builds than power. For power builds that can take a bit more punishment, I highly recommend marauder for open world. It is a very good set because it gives you quite a lot of health, but doesn't skimp on those essential stats: power/precision/ferocity.

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2020

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    Power simply doesn't do much by itself. You need crit rate (precision) and crit damage (ferocity) to get anything out of it, and with most builds you can't skimp too much or you will deal really poor damage anyway. For example, a comparison.

    Here's a video from a player who runs tanky power gear with no precision or ferocity. His build also seems very survival-oriented on top of that. Obviously, the strategy is to outlast and he passes the test with flying colors! He doesn't seem remotely pressured even though he basically facetanks the entire fight with a flamethrower! Pretty impressive as this boss routinely wipes groups of players in open world!

    But is it high damage? Do the math. A 7.5 minute kill against a boss with around 750k health. That's about 1.7k DPS. I had a celestial tempest healer build I ran back in HoT that could beat him in 6 minutes. Celestial is a very tanky set, but it does have some of the 3 stats you need to deal power damage. Unfortunately, it isn't enough and paired with a defensive build the same as the scrapper in this video, the result isn't much higher damage (about 2.1k DPS).

    To put that in perspective, here's a video of my fire weaver solo against the same boss. I'm playing a condition-based build, which doesn't require additional stats to be effective the way power builds do. I'm also playing a fairly aggressive build on a class built for dealing damage. As a result, I defeat this boss in 50 seconds while dealing 15.7k DPS - more than 9 times as much as the defensive scrapper running only power stat for offense.

    You may also notice my health never dips below 66% despite never using an active heal or rotating into water at any point. Because I am able to run vitality/toughness without sacrificing damage, I am passively pretty tanky. Combine that with traits and utilities designed to allow me to continue applying damage while evading and I am very hard to kill but the damage never slows!

    I don't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with running soldier gear. But if you're going to run tanky you are objectively far better off running condition damage builds than power. For power builds that can take a bit more punishment, I highly recommend marauder for open world. It is a very good set because it gives you quite a lot of health, but doesn't skimp on those essential stats: power/precision/ferocity.

    Your comparison is terrible. For one, the guy you brought up isn't even using Soldiers gear. Second, you're comparing different professions, without demonstrating that the professions are equal otherwise. Third, you're comparing different tactics, without demonstrating that those tactics would otherwise be equal in the circumstances given. Fourth, these videos are made by two different people, with no stated goal between these people to maximize DPS between them. Fifth, this thread isn't about elementalists. You're trying to sell your build as if you get comissions every time somebody runs one. Sixth, you're neglecting to mention that your full Dire set would have equivalent healing and durability to a full Soldiers set, because they have the same defensive stats. You're comparing apples to Michelin Tires.

    Lets compare apples to apples: assume everything is the same, except for gear choice. Assuming the standard gear sets of full ascended, force, impacting, scholar runes, and running either soldiers or berserkers will get you the following stats:

    Berserkers:
    Power: 2556
    Crit Chance: 50.8%
    Crit Damage: 229.1%
    Health: 11,645
    Armor: 1967

    Effective Health = 11,645 x (1967/1920) = 11,930
    Effective Power = 2556 x (.502 + 2.2914 x 0.498) = 2556 x 1.656 = 4,233
    Effective Health X Effective Power 50,499,690

    Soldiers:
    Power: 2556
    Crit Chance: 5%
    Crit Damage: 165%
    Health: 21,255
    Armor: 2928

    Effective Health = 21,255 x (2928 / 1920) = 32,414
    Effective Power: 2556 x (.95 + 1.65 x 0.05) = 2639
    Effective Health X Effective Power: 85,540,546

    I'll slow down a little.. Effective Power is the weighted average between critical hits, and non-critical hits. Effective health is how much health you have, relative to how high your armor is (light armor exotic as the base value). The product of those two numbers gives you how overall effective the build is in a vacuum, since it is basically the damage you do for every point of health that you get to survive with. You might have noticed that Soldiers gear is 69% higher than berserker gear. This means that, if these two builds were to fight in WvW and claw at each other with the exact same skills while not avoiding the other player, then the soldier set will beat the berserker set handily, leaving the fight a little under a third of their health remaining.

    Hence, why I recommend it for WvW. A soldier build can just chase around a berserker build spamming DPS skills, and they win by default by a large margin. To also compare how much damage that each build does, you just divide one power by the other. Berserker build does 60% more DPS than a Soldier build. Or, the Soldiers build has 62% of the damage of a Berserker build. Either way you look at it, the fact remains that most of your damage comes from Power. It is quite literally the exact opposite of what you said: precision and ferocity do very little, especially without power. Most of the damage comes from having high power.

    Now, these numbers are build-less. I didn't factor in traits, and I didn't factor in team buffs or boons. For one, if you're on a team... they'll demand you wear berserker anyway, so how well soldiers does is a moot point. For two, if you're on a soldier's build, then you get more damage running different traits and sigils. It would require more time and effort than I'm willing to dedicate to the subject, but overall the soldier build benefits most from increasing crit chance, and the berserker build benefits from increasing general modifiers. The distance between the EH x EP product is different depending on professions, but without fail the result is always the same: Soldiers wins.

    EDIT: Fixed base percentage of crit chance.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    Power simply doesn't do much by itself. You need crit rate (precision) and crit damage (ferocity) to get anything out of it, and with most builds you can't skimp too much or you will deal really poor damage anyway. For example, a comparison.

    Here's a video from a player who runs tanky power gear with no precision or ferocity. His build also seems very survival-oriented on top of that. Obviously, the strategy is to outlast and he passes the test with flying colors! He doesn't seem remotely pressured even though he basically facetanks the entire fight with a flamethrower! Pretty impressive as this boss routinely wipes groups of players in open world!

    But is it high damage? Do the math. A 7.5 minute kill against a boss with around 750k health. That's about 1.7k DPS. I had a celestial tempest healer build I ran back in HoT that could beat him in 6 minutes. Celestial is a very tanky set, but it does have some of the 3 stats you need to deal power damage. Unfortunately, it isn't enough and paired with a defensive build the same as the scrapper in this video, the result isn't much higher damage (about 2.1k DPS).

    To put that in perspective, here's a video of my fire weaver solo against the same boss. I'm playing a condition-based build, which doesn't require additional stats to be effective the way power builds do. I'm also playing a fairly aggressive build on a class built for dealing damage. As a result, I defeat this boss in 50 seconds while dealing 15.7k DPS - more than 9 times as much as the defensive scrapper running only power stat for offense.

    You may also notice my health never dips below 66% despite never using an active heal or rotating into water at any point. Because I am able to run vitality/toughness without sacrificing damage, I am passively pretty tanky. Combine that with traits and utilities designed to allow me to continue applying damage while evading and I am very hard to kill but the damage never slows!

    I don't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with running soldier gear. But if you're going to run tanky you are objectively far better off running condition damage builds than power. For power builds that can take a bit more punishment, I highly recommend marauder for open world. It is a very good set because it gives you quite a lot of health, but doesn't skimp on those essential stats: power/precision/ferocity.

    Your comparison is terrible. For one, the guy you brought up isn't even using Soldiers gear. Second, you're comparing different professions, without demonstrating that the professions are equal otherwise. Third, you're comparing different tactics, without demonstrating that those tactics would otherwise be equal in the circumstances given. Fourth, these videos are made by two different people, with no stated goal between these people to maximize DPS between them. Fifth, this thread isn't about elementalists. You're trying to sell your build as if you get comissions every time somebody runs one. Sixth, you're neglecting to mention that your full Dire set would have equivalent healing and durability to a full Soldiers set, because they have the same defensive stats. You're comparing apples to Michelin Tires.

    Lets compare apples to apples: assume everything is the same, except for gear choice. Assuming the standard gear sets of full ascended, force, impacting, scholar runes, and running either soldiers or berserkers will get you the following stats:

    Berserkers:
    Power: 2556
    Crit Chance: 49.8%
    Crit Damage: 229.1%
    Health: 11,645
    Armor: 1967

    Effective Health = 11,645 x (1967/1920) = 11,930
    Effective Power = 2556 x (.502 + 2.2914 x 0.498) = 2556 x 1.61 = 4,200
    Effective Health X Effective Power 50,106,000

    Soldiers:
    Power: 2556
    Crit Chance: 4%
    Crit Damage: 165%
    Health: 21,255
    Armor: 2928

    Effective Health = 21,255 x (2928 / 1920) = 32,414
    Effective Power: 2556 x (.96 + 1.65 x 0.04) = 2622
    Effective Health X Effective Power: 84,989,508

    I'll slow down a little.. Effective Power is the weighted average between critical hits, and non-critical hits. Effective health is how much health you have, relative to how high your armor is (light armor exotic as the base value). The product of those two numbers gives you how overall effective the build is in a vacuum, since it is basically the damage you do for every point of health that you get to survive with. You might have noticed that Soldiers gear is 70% higher than berserker gear. This means that, if these two builds were to fight in WvW and claw at each other with the exact same skills while not avoiding the other player, then the soldier set will beat the berserker set handily, leaving the fight a little under a third of their health remaining.

    Hence, why I recommend it for WvW. A soldier build can just chase around a berserker build spamming DPS skills, and they win by default by a large margin. To also compare how much damage that each build does, you just divide one power by the other. Berserker build does 60% more DPS than a Soldier build. Or, the Soldiers build has 62% of the damage of a Berserker build. Either way you look at it, the fact remains that most of your damage comes from Power. It is quite literally the exact opposite of what you said: precision and ferocity do very little, especially without power. Most of the damage comes from having high power.

    Now, these numbers are build-less. I didn't factor in traits, and I didn't factor in team buffs or boons. For one, if you're on a team... they'll demand you wear berserker anyway, so how well soldiers does is a moot point. For two, if you're on a soldier's build, then you get more damage running different traits and sigils. It would require more time and effort than I'm willing to dedicate to the subject, but overall the soldier build benefits most from increasing crit chance, and the berserker build benefits from increasing general modifiers. The distance between the EH x EP product is different depending on professions, but without fail the result is always the same: Soldiers wins.

    I'm afraid I don't understand the relevance of any of this.

  • @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    Power simply doesn't do much by itself. You need crit rate (precision) and crit damage (ferocity) to get anything out of it, and with most builds you can't skimp too much or you will deal really poor damage anyway. For example, a comparison.

    Here's a video from a player who runs tanky power gear with no precision or ferocity. His build also seems very survival-oriented on top of that. Obviously, the strategy is to outlast and he passes the test with flying colors! He doesn't seem remotely pressured even though he basically facetanks the entire fight with a flamethrower! Pretty impressive as this boss routinely wipes groups of players in open world!

    But is it high damage? Do the math. A 7.5 minute kill against a boss with around 750k health. That's about 1.7k DPS. I had a celestial tempest healer build I ran back in HoT that could beat him in 6 minutes. Celestial is a very tanky set, but it does have some of the 3 stats you need to deal power damage. Unfortunately, it isn't enough and paired with a defensive build the same as the scrapper in this video, the result isn't much higher damage (about 2.1k DPS).

    To put that in perspective, here's a video of my fire weaver solo against the same boss. I'm playing a condition-based build, which doesn't require additional stats to be effective the way power builds do. I'm also playing a fairly aggressive build on a class built for dealing damage. As a result, I defeat this boss in 50 seconds while dealing 15.7k DPS - more than 9 times as much as the defensive scrapper running only power stat for offense.

    You may also notice my health never dips below 66% despite never using an active heal or rotating into water at any point. Because I am able to run vitality/toughness without sacrificing damage, I am passively pretty tanky. Combine that with traits and utilities designed to allow me to continue applying damage while evading and I am very hard to kill but the damage never slows!

    I don't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with running soldier gear. But if you're going to run tanky you are objectively far better off running condition damage builds than power. For power builds that can take a bit more punishment, I highly recommend marauder for open world. It is a very good set because it gives you quite a lot of health, but doesn't skimp on those essential stats: power/precision/ferocity.

    Your comparison is terrible. For one, the guy you brought up isn't even using Soldiers gear. Second, you're comparing different professions, without demonstrating that the professions are equal otherwise. Third, you're comparing different tactics, without demonstrating that those tactics would otherwise be equal in the circumstances given. Fourth, these videos are made by two different people, with no stated goal between these people to maximize DPS between them. Fifth, this thread isn't about elementalists. You're trying to sell your build as if you get comissions every time somebody runs one. Sixth, you're neglecting to mention that your full Dire set would have equivalent healing and durability to a full Soldiers set, because they have the same defensive stats. You're comparing apples to Michelin Tires.

    Lets compare apples to apples: assume everything is the same, except for gear choice. Assuming the standard gear sets of full ascended, force, impacting, scholar runes, and running either soldiers or berserkers will get you the following stats:

    Berserkers:
    Power: 2556
    Crit Chance: 49.8%
    Crit Damage: 229.1%
    Health: 11,645
    Armor: 1967

    Effective Health = 11,645 x (1967/1920) = 11,930
    Effective Power = 2556 x (.502 + 2.2914 x 0.498) = 2556 x 1.61 = 4,200
    Effective Health X Effective Power 50,106,000

    Soldiers:
    Power: 2556
    Crit Chance: 4%
    Crit Damage: 165%
    Health: 21,255
    Armor: 2928

    Effective Health = 21,255 x (2928 / 1920) = 32,414
    Effective Power: 2556 x (.96 + 1.65 x 0.04) = 2622
    Effective Health X Effective Power: 84,989,508

    I'll slow down a little.. Effective Power is the weighted average between critical hits, and non-critical hits. Effective health is how much health you have, relative to how high your armor is (light armor exotic as the base value). The product of those two numbers gives you how overall effective the build is in a vacuum, since it is basically the damage you do for every point of health that you get to survive with. You might have noticed that Soldiers gear is 70% higher than berserker gear. This means that, if these two builds were to fight in WvW and claw at each other with the exact same skills while not avoiding the other player, then the soldier set will beat the berserker set handily, leaving the fight a little under a third of their health remaining.

    Hence, why I recommend it for WvW. A soldier build can just chase around a berserker build spamming DPS skills, and they win by default by a large margin. To also compare how much damage that each build does, you just divide one power by the other. Berserker build does 60% more DPS than a Soldier build. Or, the Soldiers build has 62% of the damage of a Berserker build. Either way you look at it, the fact remains that most of your damage comes from Power. It is quite literally the exact opposite of what you said: precision and ferocity do very little, especially without power. Most of the damage comes from having high power.

    Now, these numbers are build-less. I didn't factor in traits, and I didn't factor in team buffs or boons. For one, if you're on a team... they'll demand you wear berserker anyway, so how well soldiers does is a moot point. For two, if you're on a soldier's build, then you get more damage running different traits and sigils. It would require more time and effort than I'm willing to dedicate to the subject, but overall the soldier build benefits most from increasing crit chance, and the berserker build benefits from increasing general modifiers. The distance between the EH x EP product is different depending on professions, but without fail the result is always the same: Soldiers wins.

    I'm afraid I don't understand the relevance of any of this.

    tl;dr I am right about how the power stat works, you are wrong, and I have the math to prove it.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    Power simply doesn't do much by itself. You need crit rate (precision) and crit damage (ferocity) to get anything out of it, and with most builds you can't skimp too much or you will deal really poor damage anyway. For example, a comparison.

    Here's a video from a player who runs tanky power gear with no precision or ferocity. His build also seems very survival-oriented on top of that. Obviously, the strategy is to outlast and he passes the test with flying colors! He doesn't seem remotely pressured even though he basically facetanks the entire fight with a flamethrower! Pretty impressive as this boss routinely wipes groups of players in open world!

    But is it high damage? Do the math. A 7.5 minute kill against a boss with around 750k health. That's about 1.7k DPS. I had a celestial tempest healer build I ran back in HoT that could beat him in 6 minutes. Celestial is a very tanky set, but it does have some of the 3 stats you need to deal power damage. Unfortunately, it isn't enough and paired with a defensive build the same as the scrapper in this video, the result isn't much higher damage (about 2.1k DPS).

    To put that in perspective, here's a video of my fire weaver solo against the same boss. I'm playing a condition-based build, which doesn't require additional stats to be effective the way power builds do. I'm also playing a fairly aggressive build on a class built for dealing damage. As a result, I defeat this boss in 50 seconds while dealing 15.7k DPS - more than 9 times as much as the defensive scrapper running only power stat for offense.

    You may also notice my health never dips below 66% despite never using an active heal or rotating into water at any point. Because I am able to run vitality/toughness without sacrificing damage, I am passively pretty tanky. Combine that with traits and utilities designed to allow me to continue applying damage while evading and I am very hard to kill but the damage never slows!

    I don't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with running soldier gear. But if you're going to run tanky you are objectively far better off running condition damage builds than power. For power builds that can take a bit more punishment, I highly recommend marauder for open world. It is a very good set because it gives you quite a lot of health, but doesn't skimp on those essential stats: power/precision/ferocity.

    Your comparison is terrible. For one, the guy you brought up isn't even using Soldiers gear. Second, you're comparing different professions, without demonstrating that the professions are equal otherwise. Third, you're comparing different tactics, without demonstrating that those tactics would otherwise be equal in the circumstances given. Fourth, these videos are made by two different people, with no stated goal between these people to maximize DPS between them. Fifth, this thread isn't about elementalists. You're trying to sell your build as if you get comissions every time somebody runs one. Sixth, you're neglecting to mention that your full Dire set would have equivalent healing and durability to a full Soldiers set, because they have the same defensive stats. You're comparing apples to Michelin Tires.

    Lets compare apples to apples: assume everything is the same, except for gear choice. Assuming the standard gear sets of full ascended, force, impacting, scholar runes, and running either soldiers or berserkers will get you the following stats:

    Berserkers:
    Power: 2556
    Crit Chance: 49.8%
    Crit Damage: 229.1%
    Health: 11,645
    Armor: 1967

    Effective Health = 11,645 x (1967/1920) = 11,930
    Effective Power = 2556 x (.502 + 2.2914 x 0.498) = 2556 x 1.61 = 4,200
    Effective Health X Effective Power 50,106,000

    Soldiers:
    Power: 2556
    Crit Chance: 4%
    Crit Damage: 165%
    Health: 21,255
    Armor: 2928

    Effective Health = 21,255 x (2928 / 1920) = 32,414
    Effective Power: 2556 x (.96 + 1.65 x 0.04) = 2622
    Effective Health X Effective Power: 84,989,508

    I'll slow down a little.. Effective Power is the weighted average between critical hits, and non-critical hits. Effective health is how much health you have, relative to how high your armor is (light armor exotic as the base value). The product of those two numbers gives you how overall effective the build is in a vacuum, since it is basically the damage you do for every point of health that you get to survive with. You might have noticed that Soldiers gear is 70% higher than berserker gear. This means that, if these two builds were to fight in WvW and claw at each other with the exact same skills while not avoiding the other player, then the soldier set will beat the berserker set handily, leaving the fight a little under a third of their health remaining.

    Hence, why I recommend it for WvW. A soldier build can just chase around a berserker build spamming DPS skills, and they win by default by a large margin. To also compare how much damage that each build does, you just divide one power by the other. Berserker build does 60% more DPS than a Soldier build. Or, the Soldiers build has 62% of the damage of a Berserker build. Either way you look at it, the fact remains that most of your damage comes from Power. It is quite literally the exact opposite of what you said: precision and ferocity do very little, especially without power. Most of the damage comes from having high power.

    Now, these numbers are build-less. I didn't factor in traits, and I didn't factor in team buffs or boons. For one, if you're on a team... they'll demand you wear berserker anyway, so how well soldiers does is a moot point. For two, if you're on a soldier's build, then you get more damage running different traits and sigils. It would require more time and effort than I'm willing to dedicate to the subject, but overall the soldier build benefits most from increasing crit chance, and the berserker build benefits from increasing general modifiers. The distance between the EH x EP product is different depending on professions, but without fail the result is always the same: Soldiers wins.

    I'm afraid I don't understand the relevance of any of this.

    tl;dr I am right about how the power stat works, you are wrong, and I have the math to prove it.

    I'm not interested in arguing your subjective interpretations of the term "surprisingly high damage." Could you define a value or range of values you consider adequate? If that's too general, perhaps apply it to specific scenarios in actual gameplay? Bonus points if you provide video!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2020

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    Power simply doesn't do much by itself. You need crit rate (precision) and crit damage (ferocity) to get anything out of it, and with most builds you can't skimp too much or you will deal really poor damage anyway. For example, a comparison.

    Here's a video from a player who runs tanky power gear with no precision or ferocity. His build also seems very survival-oriented on top of that. Obviously, the strategy is to outlast and he passes the test with flying colors! He doesn't seem remotely pressured even though he basically facetanks the entire fight with a flamethrower! Pretty impressive as this boss routinely wipes groups of players in open world!

    But is it high damage? Do the math. A 7.5 minute kill against a boss with around 750k health. That's about 1.7k DPS. I had a celestial tempest healer build I ran back in HoT that could beat him in 6 minutes. Celestial is a very tanky set, but it does have some of the 3 stats you need to deal power damage. Unfortunately, it isn't enough and paired with a defensive build the same as the scrapper in this video, the result isn't much higher damage (about 2.1k DPS).

    To put that in perspective, here's a video of my fire weaver solo against the same boss. I'm playing a condition-based build, which doesn't require additional stats to be effective the way power builds do. I'm also playing a fairly aggressive build on a class built for dealing damage. As a result, I defeat this boss in 50 seconds while dealing 15.7k DPS - more than 9 times as much as the defensive scrapper running only power stat for offense.

    You may also notice my health never dips below 66% despite never using an active heal or rotating into water at any point. Because I am able to run vitality/toughness without sacrificing damage, I am passively pretty tanky. Combine that with traits and utilities designed to allow me to continue applying damage while evading and I am very hard to kill but the damage never slows!

    I don't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with running soldier gear. But if you're going to run tanky you are objectively far better off running condition damage builds than power. For power builds that can take a bit more punishment, I highly recommend marauder for open world. It is a very good set because it gives you quite a lot of health, but doesn't skimp on those essential stats: power/precision/ferocity.

    Your comparison is terrible. For one, the guy you brought up isn't even using Soldiers gear. Second, you're comparing different professions, without demonstrating that the professions are equal otherwise. Third, you're comparing different tactics, without demonstrating that those tactics would otherwise be equal in the circumstances given. Fourth, these videos are made by two different people, with no stated goal between these people to maximize DPS between them. Fifth, this thread isn't about elementalists. You're trying to sell your build as if you get comissions every time somebody runs one. Sixth, you're neglecting to mention that your full Dire set would have equivalent healing and durability to a full Soldiers set, because they have the same defensive stats. You're comparing apples to Michelin Tires.

    Lets compare apples to apples: assume everything is the same, except for gear choice. Assuming the standard gear sets of full ascended, force, impacting, scholar runes, and running either soldiers or berserkers will get you the following stats:

    Berserkers:
    Power: 2556
    Crit Chance: 49.8%
    Crit Damage: 229.1%
    Health: 11,645
    Armor: 1967

    Effective Health = 11,645 x (1967/1920) = 11,930
    Effective Power = 2556 x (.502 + 2.2914 x 0.498) = 2556 x 1.61 = 4,200
    Effective Health X Effective Power 50,106,000

    Soldiers:
    Power: 2556
    Crit Chance: 4%
    Crit Damage: 165%
    Health: 21,255
    Armor: 2928

    Effective Health = 21,255 x (2928 / 1920) = 32,414
    Effective Power: 2556 x (.96 + 1.65 x 0.04) = 2622
    Effective Health X Effective Power: 84,989,508

    I'll slow down a little.. Effective Power is the weighted average between critical hits, and non-critical hits. Effective health is how much health you have, relative to how high your armor is (light armor exotic as the base value). The product of those two numbers gives you how overall effective the build is in a vacuum, since it is basically the damage you do for every point of health that you get to survive with. You might have noticed that Soldiers gear is 70% higher than berserker gear. This means that, if these two builds were to fight in WvW and claw at each other with the exact same skills while not avoiding the other player, then the soldier set will beat the berserker set handily, leaving the fight a little under a third of their health remaining.

    Hence, why I recommend it for WvW. A soldier build can just chase around a berserker build spamming DPS skills, and they win by default by a large margin. To also compare how much damage that each build does, you just divide one power by the other. Berserker build does 60% more DPS than a Soldier build. Or, the Soldiers build has 62% of the damage of a Berserker build. Either way you look at it, the fact remains that most of your damage comes from Power. It is quite literally the exact opposite of what you said: precision and ferocity do very little, especially without power. Most of the damage comes from having high power.

    Now, these numbers are build-less. I didn't factor in traits, and I didn't factor in team buffs or boons. For one, if you're on a team... they'll demand you wear berserker anyway, so how well soldiers does is a moot point. For two, if you're on a soldier's build, then you get more damage running different traits and sigils. It would require more time and effort than I'm willing to dedicate to the subject, but overall the soldier build benefits most from increasing crit chance, and the berserker build benefits from increasing general modifiers. The distance between the EH x EP product is different depending on professions, but without fail the result is always the same: Soldiers wins.

    I'm afraid I don't understand the relevance of any of this.

    tl;dr I am right about how the power stat works, you are wrong, and I have the math to prove it.

    No, you aren't. Reason: because you assume that both builds have no cooldowns, do consistent damage and pressure or spike damage is not a thing. Not to mention that you are using part of an equation, omitting the rest and then trying to draw a conclusion.

    The multiplicative way how damage works in this game, the ability to stack damage modifiers and defensive skills to points in time where they are OF USE, makes the entire theory craft pretty much useless.

    Yes, in a vacuum Soldier gear is amazing. In reality when paired with the active nature of this game and the way coefficients scale, it is pretty trash.

    EDIT:
    To further expand on this:
    There are nearly no multiplicative defensive skills in this game (at least very few that affect EHP). Your vitality and toughness is what you get, with potentially protection for a 33% damage reduction. As such, survival and EHP will not climb at all or barely.
    Completely contrary to damage modifiers, which are thrown out left and right and as mentioned, scale multiplicative. So, as more and more traits, skills, boons etc. get added on top, they will scale far better off the higher base number of the effective power on the berserker stats, while the soldier set will see far less increase in offense, and barely a noticeable growth in EHP versus the berserker set.

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, you aren't. Reason: because you assume that both builds have no cooldowns, do consistent damage and pressure or spike damage is not a thing. Not to mention that you are using part of an equation, omitting the rest and then trying to draw a conclusion.

    The multiplicative way how damage works in this game, the ability to stack damage modifiers and defensive skills to points in time where they are OF USE, makes the entire theory craft pretty much useless.

    Yes, in a vacuum Soldier gear is amazing. In reality when paired with the active nature of this game and the way coefficients scale, it is pretty trash.

    No. I assumed perfectly symmetrical violence. To go off of otherwise would invoke the particulars of a build or the player using it, in which case any comparison can't be readily made. I only bring up build differences in the end because it would be practical to do so.

    The Effective Health x Effective Power product means that a soldier build is hitting a berserker build for a greater proportion of the berserker's health than the berserker build hits back. Doesn't matter if it is consistent damage or spike damage. Soldier's wins in either scenario. Toughness + Vitality gives more durability than precision + ferocity gives offensive power.

    I am omitting nothing of value. The rest of the damage equation consists of things like weapon coefficients (constant, multiplier), skill coefficients (constant, multiplier), and damage modifiers from sigils and runes (multiplier). Because all of these are multipliers, it means in the grand comparison they cancel out. I.E. if you include the sigil of force when comparing effective power, you'll get (4233 x 1.05) / (2629 x 1.05), which changes nothing. Doesn't matter how many multiplicative modifiers you stack, the proportions remain the same. The only thing that would change these numbers is static bonuses, I.E. fixed amounts of stats that a trait gives.

    EDIT: There are quite a few traits and abilities that would increase effective health, but it doesn't matter. Overall statistical strength is the product of effective power and effective health. The modifiers for one will still carry over to another.

    You've brought up skill twice in the same post. See, I already covered that when I said the following above:

    The reason why we all recommend berserkers for PVE is because active defenses take care of most threats, enrage timers or event timers exist, and because it is better for farming gold to kill things quickly and move on.

    For you see, skill is an unrelated to overall statistical effectiveness. Just like how the tensile strength of a baseball bat is unrelated to how accurately the guy swings it. However, overall statistical effectiveness does have an impact on the fight, especially when fighting against somebody else. Being overall superior in stats means that you win by default when you trade blows. That you'll have an easier time winning, your opponent has to do more to beat you, and that mistakes will be more forgiving. This kind of thinking isn't useless, either. I've been doing this in WvW for awhile now. Any time I consider switching out traits or equipment, the first thing I do is compare the EH x EP product.

    Aliam repeated that myth that conditions only need one stat while power needs 3... to me specifically. That claim is wrong on multiple levels. Particularly, most of the damage a power build does comes from power itself, and you don't do "really poor damage" in soldier's gear. At least not in a WvW, PVP (so good they removed the amulet), or in PVE. Outside of raids, I cannot think of a place where soldier's gear is insufficient for completing content. If a gear set is trash in 1% of the game, then it isn't trash.

    If you're saying that I am misrepresenting a formula, then you had better bring up the whole thing, and then show why it matters. I do not take kindly to accusations of being a liar. All you've done is drum up a bunch of generic criticisms of things that either have no impact whatsoever, misunderstand what I have written, distract from what I have written, or is a point that I have already discussed.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2020

    I have 7000 hours of smallscale and duelling experience on different classes.

    Soldier is trash in the current state of the game because it greatly misses the sweetspot of damage and sustain. For berserker gear it depends on the base health pool of the class but when we throw in marauder then things become obvious.

    You can not kill most zerk or marauder encounters with a soldier build since they can burst and peel you while you can't. Soldier is so weak in damage now that everyone can just outheal it with either a little kiting, LOS or area denial. Then it's about landing damage and viable builds have very small windows of opportunity where you can apply noticeable damage at all. For these windows you need burst or you will fail hard.

    This is the state of the game since the feb25 patch. Before that patch landed soldier was viable and often superior to berserker as with some traited damage multipliers it had basically the damage potential which marauder now has.

    That's why I say since the patch landed that - for pvp - marauder is the new paladin and berserker is the new demolisher. And this transfers directly to wvw.

    Damage formulas that ignore the combat mechanic (active defenses, hit and run etc.) can not represent the reality.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, you aren't. Reason: because you assume that both builds have no cooldowns, do consistent damage and pressure or spike damage is not a thing. Not to mention that you are using part of an equation, omitting the rest and then trying to draw a conclusion.

    The multiplicative way how damage works in this game, the ability to stack damage modifiers and defensive skills to points in time where they are OF USE, makes the entire theory craft pretty much useless.

    Yes, in a vacuum Soldier gear is amazing. In reality when paired with the active nature of this game and the way coefficients scale, it is pretty trash.

    No. I assumed perfectly symmetrical violence. To go off of otherwise would invoke the particulars of a build or the player using it, in which case any comparison can't be readily made. I only bring up build differences in the end because it would be practical to do so.

    The Effective Health x Effective Power product means that a soldier build is hitting a berserker build for a greater proportion of the berserker's health than the berserker build hits back. Doesn't matter if it is consistent damage or spike damage. Soldier's wins in either scenario. Toughness + Vitality gives more durability than precision + ferocity gives offensive power.

    I am omitting nothing of value. The rest of the damage equation consists of things like weapon coefficients (constant, multiplier), skill coefficients (constant, multiplier), and damage modifiers from sigils and runes (multiplier). Because all of these are multipliers, it means in the grand comparison they cancel out. I.E. if you include the sigil of force when comparing effective power, you'll get (4233 x 1.05) / (2629 x 1.05), which changes nothing. Doesn't matter how many multiplicative modifiers you stack, the proportions remain the same. The only thing that would change these numbers is static bonuses, I.E. fixed amounts of stats that a trait gives.

    EDIT: There are quite a few traits and abilities that would increase effective health, but it doesn't matter. Overall statistical strength is the product of effective power and effective health. The modifiers for one will still carry over to another.

    You've brought up skill twice in the same post. See, I already covered that when I said the following above:

    The reason why we all recommend berserkers for PVE is because active defenses take care of most threats, enrage timers or event timers exist, and because it is better for farming gold to kill things quickly and move on.

    For you see, skill is an unrelated to overall statistical effectiveness. Just like how the tensile strength of a baseball bat is unrelated to how accurately the guy swings it. However, overall statistical effectiveness does have an impact on the fight, especially when fighting against somebody else. Being overall superior in stats means that you win by default when you trade blows. That you'll have an easier time winning, your opponent has to do more to beat you, and that mistakes will be more forgiving. This kind of thinking isn't useless, either. I've been doing this in WvW for awhile now. Any time I consider switching out traits or equipment, the first thing I do is compare the EH x EP product.

    Aliam repeated that myth that conditions only need one stat while power needs 3... to me specifically. That claim is wrong on multiple levels. Particularly, most of the damage a power build does comes from power itself, and you don't do "really poor damage" in soldier's gear. At least not in a WvW, PVP (so good they removed the amulet), or in PVE. Outside of raids, I cannot think of a place where soldier's gear is insufficient for completing content. If a gear set is trash in 1% of the game, then it isn't trash.

    If you're saying that I am misrepresenting a formula, then you had better bring up the whole thing, and then show why it matters. I do not take kindly to accusations of being a liar. All you've done is drum up a bunch of generic criticisms of things that either have no impact whatsoever, misunderstand what I have written, distract from what I have written, or is a point that I have already discussed.

    So much effort wasted on being "right" about a position that bears no practical relevance whatsoever. And yes, you are deliberately attempting to mislead with your specious arguments and you are well aware of it.

    But enough wasting time on that. This is very easily resolved.

    Just answer the question: How much damage is "high damage"? Do you even know? Of course you don't! Anyone who runs arcdps can see with their own eyes how wrong you are. This is just your opinion (i.e. "I deal surprisingly high damage in soldier gear!") backed by a whole lot of nonsense meant to confuse those who don't know any better by making it appear that you have an objective basis for these claims. You do not.

    Prove me wrong. Find me even one video of any player (it doesn't have to be you!) dealing what you consider "high damage" using a gear set that features power-based damage with no precision or ferocity (so no condi builds!).

    Alternatively, tell us your thoughts on the scrapper video I provided. Is that high damage?

    If that's too much effort for you, please spare us another of your lengthy and meaningless expositions and just come out with a range of values you consider worthy of the term "high damage". If your argument holds water, you should be able to do that and stop dodging. How about it?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2020

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, you aren't. Reason: because you assume that both builds have no cooldowns, do consistent damage and pressure or spike damage is not a thing. Not to mention that you are using part of an equation, omitting the rest and then trying to draw a conclusion.

    The multiplicative way how damage works in this game, the ability to stack damage modifiers and defensive skills to points in time where they are OF USE, makes the entire theory craft pretty much useless.

    Yes, in a vacuum Soldier gear is amazing. In reality when paired with the active nature of this game and the way coefficients scale, it is pretty trash.

    No. I assumed perfectly symmetrical violence. To go off of otherwise would invoke the particulars of a build or the player using it, in which case any comparison can't be readily made. I only bring up build differences in the end because it would be practical to do so.

    The Effective Health x Effective Power product means that a soldier build is hitting a berserker build for a greater proportion of the berserker's health than the berserker build hits back. Doesn't matter if it is consistent damage or spike damage. Soldier's wins in either scenario. Toughness + Vitality gives more durability than precision + ferocity gives offensive power.

    I am omitting nothing of value. The rest of the damage equation consists of things like weapon coefficients (constant, multiplier), skill coefficients (constant, multiplier), and damage modifiers from sigils and runes (multiplier). Because all of these are multipliers, it means in the grand comparison they cancel out. I.E. if you include the sigil of force when comparing effective power, you'll get (4233 x 1.05) / (2629 x 1.05), which changes nothing. Doesn't matter how many multiplicative modifiers you stack, the proportions remain the same. The only thing that would change these numbers is static bonuses, I.E. fixed amounts of stats that a trait gives.

    That is not true. You should know for this to not be true by simple reasoning that multiplying a higher number by the same multipliers results in a far bigger end result than multiplying a smaller number.

    As comparison:
    10 times 50 = 500
    20 times 50 = 1,000

    If we assume that this holds true, and as mentioned by me that EHP does not change in the same way, which it does not. The base value of off of which is multiplied is a factor.

    The proportions staying the same, while comparing them to a more static value is ABSOLUTELY a factor.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    EDIT: There are quite a few traits and abilities that would increase effective health, but it doesn't matter. Overall statistical strength is the product of effective power and effective health. The modifiers for one will still carry over to another.

    By far not in the same way, and not in the dimension that power or damage changes.

    You've brought up skill twice in the same post. See, I already covered that when I said the following above:

    The reason why we all recommend berserkers for PVE is because active defenses take care of most threats, enrage timers or event timers exist, and because it is better for farming gold to kill things quickly and move on.

    Which also remains true for WvW and Spvp. You just decided to not weigh any of those considerations when applying your statements.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    For you see, skill is an unrelated to overall statistical effectiveness. Just like how the tensile strength of a baseball bat is unrelated to how accurately the guy swings it. However, overall statistical effectiveness does have an impact on the fight, especially when fighting against somebody else. Being overall superior in stats means that you win by default when you trade blows. That you'll have an easier time winning, your opponent has to do more to beat you, and that mistakes will be more forgiving. This kind of thinking isn't useless, either. I've been doing this in WvW for awhile now. Any time I consider switching out traits or equipment, the first thing I do is compare the EH x EP product.

    Except that as mentioned, trading blows is of no consequence in any scenario, since even when "only" trading blows, you calculation is not enough to calculate any possible result.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Aliam repeated that myth that conditions only need one stat while power needs 3... to me specifically. That claim is wrong on multiple levels. Particularly, most of the damage a power build does comes from power itself, and you don't do "really poor damage" in soldier's gear. At least not in a WvW, PVP (so good they removed the amulet), or in PVE. Outside of raids, I cannot think of a place where soldier's gear is insufficient for completing content. If a gear set is trash in 1% of the game, then it isn't trash.

    You are mixing 3 different things here:
    A. gear being sufficient for clearing content
    B. the amount of damage multipliers one must stack in order to maximize damage
    C. the amount by which each damage type is increased via each stat.

    Stop mixing these issues and addressing them as 1, and the problem might get untangled.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    If you're saying that I am misrepresenting a formula, then you had better bring up the whole thing, and then show why it matters. I do not take kindly to accusations of being a liar. All you've done is drum up a bunch of generic criticisms of things that either have no impact whatsoever, misunderstand what I have written, distract from what I have written, or is a point that I have already discussed.

    Worse: I am saying you are deliberately using half data and cutting corners to win an argument on a forum. The relationship between the values which you calculated in no way allows for ANY of the conclusions you are attempting to draw, and the worst of all: you know that, but decide that being right is more important than using data in a correct way.

    Yes, you did misrepresent the formula by omitting for skill coefficients and for other effects, which is only mentioned as a side note in the damage wiki but brought up in more detail when looking at the Damage calculation help wiki: Damage = (Skill damage * Positive multipliers) / (Armor * Negative multipliers)

    Since actual damage done is important versus EHP, and not power value, you are leaving out the entire subset of positive effects which affect damage (which as stated are far far more than damage reduction).

    In short: you are willfully cutting corners and leaving out things trying to make an argument which one simply can not make.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Until you get ascended gear or a particular build, Soldiers is pretty good for WvW. It is also good for casual PVE.

    Contrary to popular belief, Soldiers is statistically one of the best sets in the game. The combination of stats it has means that you are very durable while having surprisingly high damage for how tough to kill you are. There's some math behind it, but its pretty complicated. The reason why we all recommend berserkers for PVE is because active defenses take care of most threats, enrage timers or event timers exist, and because it is better for farming gold to kill things quickly and move on. But, if you're in an area with high sustained damage (such as WvW) and you aren't being pressured into maximizing DPS due to timers or peer pressure, then Soldiers gear is an excellent option.

    I'm going to agree, but only in ONE case - If it's just the ARMOR that is Soldier. If the armor is Soldier, but weapons/trinkets are Marauder/Zerker you get a good boost for WvW survival while only losing a little DPS and it can help you learn.

    Once you've learned though, swap that stuff out, unless you are being lazy (I keep my Solder armor in the bags for when I want to be a little less precise on my active defense in WvW, also, it's Karma temple armor and you can't salvage it anyway).

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    So much effort wasted on being "right" about a position that bears no practical relevance whatsoever. And yes, you are deliberately attempting to mislead with your specious arguments and you are well aware of it.

    But enough wasting time on that. This is very easily resolved.

    Just answer the question: How much damage is "high damage"? Do you even know? Of course you don't! Anyone who runs arcdps can see with their own eyes how wrong you are. This is just your opinion (i.e. "I deal surprisingly high damage in soldier gear!") backed by a whole lot of nonsense meant to confuse those who don't know any better by making it appear that you have an objective basis for these claims. You do not.

    Prove me wrong. Find me even one video of any player (it doesn't have to be you!) dealing what you consider "high damage" using a gear set that features power-based damage with no precision or ferocity (so no condi builds!).

    Alternatively, tell us your thoughts on the scrapper video I provided. Is that high damage?

    If that's too much effort for you, please spare us another of your lengthy and meaningless expositions and just come out with a range of values you consider worthy of the term "high damage". If your argument holds water, you should be able to do that and stop dodging. How about it?

    Claims I'm making a specious argument. Doesn't define his own terms. Demands I prove him wrong first. Misconstrues what I say. Dancing around everything else. I can recognize troll logic when I see it. You aren't here for a serious discussion on how gear affects damage and durability. You're just here to send me running into endless circles.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    So much effort wasted on being "right" about a position that bears no practical relevance whatsoever. And yes, you are deliberately attempting to mislead with your specious arguments and you are well aware of it.

    But enough wasting time on that. This is very easily resolved.

    Just answer the question: How much damage is "high damage"? Do you even know? Of course you don't! Anyone who runs arcdps can see with their own eyes how wrong you are. This is just your opinion (i.e. "I deal surprisingly high damage in soldier gear!") backed by a whole lot of nonsense meant to confuse those who don't know any better by making it appear that you have an objective basis for these claims. You do not.

    Prove me wrong. Find me even one video of any player (it doesn't have to be you!) dealing what you consider "high damage" using a gear set that features power-based damage with no precision or ferocity (so no condi builds!).

    Alternatively, tell us your thoughts on the scrapper video I provided. Is that high damage?

    If that's too much effort for you, please spare us another of your lengthy and meaningless expositions and just come out with a range of values you consider worthy of the term "high damage". If your argument holds water, you should be able to do that and stop dodging. How about it?

    Claims I'm making a specious argument. Doesn't define his own terms. Demands I prove him wrong first. Misconstrues what I say. Dancing around everything else. I can recognize troll logic when I see it. You aren't here for a serious discussion on how gear affects damage and durability. You're just here to send me running into endless circles.

    Obvious troll is obvious.

    I defined my parameters with video and clear damage values. Do us the courtesy of doing the same. You don't need to provide video but simply define a dps value range that equates to what you are referring to as "surprisingly high damage".

    We both know why you will never do that. Because the moment you do, it will become crystal clear that you are wrong and power without precision and ferocity deals jack for damage.

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    That is not true. You should know for this to not be true by simple reasoning that multiplying a higher number by the same multipliers results in a far bigger end result than multiplying a smaller number.

    As comparison:
    10 times 50 = 500
    20 times 50 = 1,000

    If we assume that this holds true, and as mentioned by me that EHP does not change in the same way, which it does not. The base value of off of which is multiplied is a factor.

    The proportions staying the same, while comparing them to a more static value is ABSOLUTELY a factor.

    You haven't done the math, have you? Here, let me go through it step by step. The comparison between the effective health x effective power product just looks like this:

    (Soldiers Effective Power X Soldiers Effective Health)
    /
    (Berserkers Effective Power x Berserkers Effective Health)

    I'll throw in the real numbers

    (2639 x 32,414)
    /
    (4233 x 11,930)

    = 85,540,546 / 50,499,690
    = 1.6939

    Now, lets throw in protection for the sake of argument. Protection reduces damage received by 33%, which can considered as multiplying effective health by 1.33. This makes the effective health of each build into 15,866.9 for Berserkers and 43,110.62. Throwing those numbers in, we get

    (2639 x 43,110.62)
    /
    (4233 x 15,866.9)

    = 113, 768,926.18 / 67,164,587.7
    = 1.6939

    Well, look at that. Its the exact same result. This is the commutative property of multiplication. That's a fancy word for saying that A x B = B x A. What we really did is just this:

    (2639 x 32,414 x 1.33)
    /
    (4233 x 11,930 x 1.33)

    Which cancels out. The same thing happens with other modifiers. If we include the modifier from scholar runes (5%), sigil of force (5%), sigil of impacting (3%), and neglect protection, what we're getting is basically this:

    (2639 x 1.05 x 1.05 x 1.03 x 32,414)
    /
    (4233 x 1.05 x 1.05 x 1.03 x 11,930)

    =

    (2,996.782425 x 32, 414)
    /
    (4,806.888975 x 11,930)

    = (97,137,705.52395) / (57,346,185.47175)
    = 1.6939

    We can cancel out the common terms. See, it doesn't matter if we multiply damage by 1.05, or if we multiply health by 1.05. The commutative property of multiplication means that it doesn't matter what order we multiply the terms in. But, lets take the extreme version of this. Lets say that one build has a product of 1, and the other build has a product of 1000. Lets also say that there are sigils and traits that increase damage by 100%. Apply it to both:

    1 / 1000 = 0.001
    2 / 2000 = 0.001
    3 / 3000 = 0.001
    4 / 4000 = 0.001

    The proportions stay the same.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Which also remains true for WvW and Spvp. You just decided to not weigh any of those considerations when applying your statements.

    Me, again, earlier in this thread, the very next sentence:

    But, if you're in an area with high sustained damage (such as WvW) and you aren't being pressured into maximizing DPS due to timers or peer pressure, then Soldiers gear is an excellent option.

    You're implying that everyone should wear Berserker gear in WvW because everyone is so high skill that they can always dodge at the right time and burst at the right time. There's a problem with saying everyone can do this: everyone is fighting against everyone else. If everyone is super skilled, then their skill levels will cancel out when they fight each other.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Except that as mentioned, trading blows is of no consequence in any scenario, since even when "only" trading blows, you calculation is not enough to calculate any possible result.

    It does. It means that the soldier is hitting the berserker for, proportional to each others health, 69% more than the berserker is hitting back. The soldier is winning, by default, and by a large margin. inb4 Aliam demands I prove what "large" means. The berserker has to have either greater skill, greater circumstantial factors, or a mechanical build advantage over the soldier to win. Likewise, for anyone who is low-skill it means that in PVE, that Soldiers is better, because even though you only hit for 62% of berserker's damage on average, you live 2.72 times longer.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You are mixing 3 different things here:
    A. gear being sufficient for clearing content
    B. the amount of damage multipliers one must stack in order to maximize damage
    C. the amount by which each damage type is increased via each stat.

    Stop mixing these issues and addressing them as 1, and the problem might get untangled.

    I'm really not. Aliam did all three when he took issue with my claim that Soldiers is a good set. He cherry-picked a couple of videos to try to argue against me, and he purposefully neglected all of the little factors that go against his assertion. Condi duration, the direct damage component, on-crit effects, ramp up, etc.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Worse: I am saying you are deliberately using half data and cutting corners to win an argument on a forum. The relationship between the values which you calculated in no way allows for ANY of the conclusions you are attempting to draw, and the worst of all: you know that, but decide that being right is more important than using data in a correct way.

    But they do. I came to these conclusions AFTER doing the math, not before. What I'm getting from this is that you don't understand how fractions work, but instead of asking what I'm doing or how any of the theory works you just start flinging accusations.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Yes, you did misrepresent the formula by omitting for skill coefficients and for other effects, which is only mentioned as a side note in the damage wiki but brought up in more detail when looking at the Damage calculation help wiki: Damage = (Skill damage * Positive multipliers) / (Armor * Negative multipliers)

    Since actual damage done is important versus EHP, and not power value, you are leaving out the entire subset of positive effects which affect damage (which as stated are far far more than damage reduction).

    In short: you are willfully cutting corners and leaving out things trying to make an argument which one simply can not make.

    That's not how science works. You're supposed to control the variables. If you were comparing soldier to berserker gear, why would you use Tranquilizer Dart Vs. Fire Grab? The answer is that you don't. If I were to expand the formula for the entirety of damage, it would look like this

    (Weapon Coefficient x Skill Damage x Power x Modifiers x (Chance to Crit X Crit damage + Chance to not Crit) x Health x Armor x (Modifiers))
    /
    (Weapon Coefficient x Skill Damage x Power x Modifiers x (Chance to Crit X Crit damage + Chance to not Crit) x Health x Armor x (Modifiers))

    Lets eliminate all factors that are identical between the two builds. Considering that the only difference between the two is the Gear, this means the following are the same and can be canceled out:

    Weapon Coefficient
    Skill Damage
    Modifiers for Power
    Modifiers for Damage Reduction

    What are we left with?

    (Power x (Chance to Crit X Crit damage + Chance to not Crit) x Health x Armor)
    /
    (Power x (Chance to Crit X Crit damage + Chance to not Crit)) x Health x Armor)

    The first part, which is Power x Crit Mod, is just effective power. The second part, which is Health x Armor, is just effective health. This formula looks awfully familiar, doesn't it? Well, there are two things that I did to it, which has no effect on the overall result, but nonetheless makes it easier to read. First, I kept Power in. For this trivial example, the amount of Power that is provided is the same between builds, so I could actually cancel that out. However, if I just did the Crit Mod x Effective health, it would look funny and people wouldn't be able to follow along. Second, Health X Armor gets you an absurdly large number of Hit Point-Armors, which is a unit that doesn't immediately make sense and isn't easily digestible. Instead, I opted to change this number into scaled health by dividing by 1920 armor, which is the base armor value for exotic light sets. This doesn't change the overall proportion, since I divided both sides by the same, constant number. It cancels out, again.

    I also didn't omit this information. I covered it all in a single sentence:

    Lets compare apples to apples: assume everything is the same, except for gear choice

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    Obvious troll is obvious.

    I defined my parameters with video and clear damage values. Do us the courtesy of doing the same. You don't need to provide video but simply define a dps value range that equates to what you are referring to as "surprisingly high damage".

    We both know why you will never do that. Because the moment you do, it will become crystal clear that you are wrong and power without precision and ferocity deals jack for damage.

    No you didn't.

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Power simply doesn't do much by itself

    Define "do much".

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    You need crit rate (precision) and crit damage (ferocity)

    Define "need".

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    to get anything out of it

    Define "anything".

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    with most builds you can't skimp too much or you will deal really poor damage anyway.

    Define "poor".

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    power without precision and ferocity deals jack for damage.

    Define "jack."

    You also didn't define "high damage" either. You just made a context-less and inappropriate comparison between random videos. See, I've already explained what I mean by "surprisingly high damage for how tough to kill you are." I defined it above as such:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Either way you look at it, the fact remains that most of your damage comes from Power. It is quite literally the exact opposite of what you said: precision and ferocity do very little, especially without power. Most of the damage comes from having high power.

    I call it surprising, because most people assume that if you have three times the durability, that you would also have 1/3rd of the damage as compensation. Like there's a see-saw wherein everything is balanced around a fulcrum, and there is no method to obtain true gains outside of stuff like modifiers.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭

    All arguments aside, soldier gear is meta for destroying things immune to conditions and critical hits. Like Tequatl's fingers!

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I'm really not. Aliam did all three when he took issue with my claim that Soldiers is a good set. He cherry-picked a couple of videos to try to argue against me, and he purposefully neglected all of the little factors that go against his assertion. Condi duration, the direct damage component, on-crit effects, ramp up, etc.

    You're triggered. Take a deep breath.

    I think I was pretty clear that I took issue with your claim that soldier gear produces "surprisingly high damage." That is not the same thing as saying that soldier gear isn't "good." This is what I had to say about the video of the scrapper:

    "Here's a video from a player who runs tanky power gear with no precision or ferocity. His build also seems very survival-oriented on top of that. Obviously, the strategy is to outlast and he passes the test with flying colors! He doesn't seem remotely pressured even though he basically facetanks the entire fight with a flamethrower! Pretty impressive as this boss routinely wipes groups of players in open world!"

    I then went on to point out that I played a tanky tempest build that performed in similar fashion before sharing my weaver build for comparison. Why exactly am I playing a low damage build if I thumb my nose at low damage builds? Some sort of clever ruse I suppose? At no point did I make any judgement at all about Soldier gear and, in fact, I had this to say in conclusion:

    "I don't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with running soldier gear. But if you're going to run tanky you are objectively far better off running condition damage builds than power. For power builds that can take a bit more punishment, I highly recommend marauder for open world. It is a very good set because it gives you quite a lot of health, but doesn't skimp on those essential stats: power/precision/ferocity."

    So let me be clear: You do you, broski! I run tanky builds that deal jack for damage, too! I said so and I have had videos of it up on my channel for years to prove it! As it happens, I also do builds for new players that are designed to be super easy to use (unlike my weaver build), but extremely survivable. I am not in any way out to belittle people for choosing non-meta builds (my builds are never meta because I'm a solo open world/wvw roamer kind of player) or using tanky stats. I use tanky stats on my roaming build, too!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    Going to keep this short because this is not an issue worth raging or discussing over since soldiers is NOT a good set in the totality of this games design.

    Multiplicative common variables can ONLY be cancelled out if all factors are affected the same way. In your example this only holds true because you are going by a swing against swing scenario where if absolutely no other actions are taken, no boons are applied, etc. eventually a soldier set would outlive a berserker set. You then omit every other scenario by simply saying:"only in this case".

    All fine. Based on that limited view though you can NOT make the claims you made for the totality of this game.

    You can not claim the set is "good" based on what you have shown. You can not claim it will perform well in WvW. You can not claim this set is better for a weaker player because the situations in which a way higher alpha might kill an enemy faster might far outweigh a prolonged fight.

    My only issue is the claims you make based of of a limited inspection. None of your math allows for any of them.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Going to keep this short because this is not an issue worth raging or discussing over since soldiers is NOT a good set in the totality of this games design.

    Multiplicative common variables can ONLY be cancelled out if all factors are affected the same way. In your example this only holds true because you are going by a swing against swing scenario where if absolutely no other actions are taken, no boons are applied, etc. eventually a soldier set would outlive a berserker set. You then omit every other scenario by simply saying:"only in this case".

    All fine. Based on that limited view though you can NOT make the claims you made for the totality of this game.

    You can not claim the set is "good" based on what you have shown. You can not claim it will perform well in WvW. You can not claim this set is better for a weaker player because the situations in which a way higher alpha might kill an enemy faster might far outweigh a prolonged fight.

    My only issue is the claims you make based of of a limited inspection. None of your math allows for any of them.

    Do you know the reason why I assume perfectly symmetrical violence? Because, technically, you are fighting yourself. When deciding on what gear to use, there are a couple of very basic assumptions that go into making this decision:

    (1): You are still yourself after changing gear.
    (2): Your profession is still the same after changing gear.
    (3): Your skills and traits are going to be the same after changing gear.
    (4): Enemies are going to be the same after changing gear.
    (5): The game formulae remains the same after changing gear.
    (6): You are deciding what gear that you yourself are using, and not somebody else.

    The game does not change in mysterious and unpredictable ways depending on gear choice, and neither do you. There is "no other actions" taken because you can only take the actions you take, and you cannot take the actions you didn't take. Boons still work in Soldier gear. Soldiers will always outlive berserker, because enemies don't magically do more damage when you have more health and armor. There is no scenario where you are not yourself.

    Not only can I make these claims, I am actively making them right now. The effective health x effective power product is the overall statistical strength of a set of gear. It is how much damage you do multiplied by how long you live while doing it. This product... it doesn't go away. In PVE if you're fighting a champion mob, or a veteran, or a swarm of normal mobs, or a world boss... the product is the same . If you're in WvW, the product is still the same. If you are a masterful player or a terrible player, the product is still the same. If your opponent is a masterful or a terrible player, the product remains the same.

    Listen to yourself. Your basically saying "all that math is meaningless, because the berserker gear has 25 might and uses fire grab while the soldier gear doesn't, has 25 vulnerability, and uses vapor blade. That makes the sigil of force better on berserker gear."

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I'm really not. Aliam did all three when he took issue with my claim that Soldiers is a good set. He cherry-picked a couple of videos to try to argue against me, and he purposefully neglected all of the little factors that go against his assertion. Condi duration, the direct damage component, on-crit effects, ramp up, etc.

    You're triggered. Take a deep breath.

    I think I was pretty clear that I took issue with your claim that soldier gear produces "surprisingly high damage." That is not the same thing as saying that soldier gear isn't "good." This is what I had to say about the video of the scrapper:

    "Here's a video from a player who runs tanky power gear with no precision or ferocity. His build also seems very survival-oriented on top of that. Obviously, the strategy is to outlast and he passes the test with flying colors! He doesn't seem remotely pressured even though he basically facetanks the entire fight with a flamethrower! Pretty impressive as this boss routinely wipes groups of players in open world!"

    I then went on to point out that I played a tanky tempest build that performed in similar fashion before sharing my weaver build for comparison. Why exactly am I playing a low damage build if I thumb my nose at low damage builds? Some sort of clever ruse I suppose? At no point did I make any judgement at all about Soldier gear and, in fact, I had this to say in conclusion:

    "I don't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with running soldier gear. But if you're going to run tanky you are objectively far better off running condition damage builds than power. For power builds that can take a bit more punishment, I highly recommend marauder for open world. It is a very good set because it gives you quite a lot of health, but doesn't skimp on those essential stats: power/precision/ferocity."

    So let me be clear: You do you, broski! I run tanky builds that deal jack for damage, too! I said so and I have had videos of it up on my channel for years to prove it! As it happens, I also do builds for new players that are designed to be super easy to use (unlike my weaver build), but extremely survivable. I am not in any way out to belittle people for choosing non-meta builds (my builds are never meta because I'm a solo open world/wvw roamer kind of player) or using tanky stats. I use tanky stats on my roaming build, too!

    No. You made some pretty clear statements on the nature of condition damage and power when comparing the two. Statements that are blatantly wrong. Then you delved into trolling when I pointed it out.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Going to keep this short because this is not an issue worth raging or discussing over since soldiers is NOT a good set in the totality of this games design.

    Multiplicative common variables can ONLY be cancelled out if all factors are affected the same way. In your example this only holds true because you are going by a swing against swing scenario where if absolutely no other actions are taken, no boons are applied, etc. eventually a soldier set would outlive a berserker set. You then omit every other scenario by simply saying:"only in this case".

    All fine. Based on that limited view though you can NOT make the claims you made for the totality of this game.

    You can not claim the set is "good" based on what you have shown. You can not claim it will perform well in WvW. You can not claim this set is better for a weaker player because the situations in which a way higher alpha might kill an enemy faster might far outweigh a prolonged fight.

    My only issue is the claims you make based of of a limited inspection. None of your math allows for any of them.

    Do you know the reason why I assume perfectly symmetrical violence? Because, technically, you are fighting yourself. When deciding on what gear to use, there are a couple of very basic assumptions that go into making this decision:

    (1): You are still yourself after changing gear.

    No you are not. Gear absolutely affects how I play my character and how I face different situations in game. By the very least in reaction to how my character is affected IF I am unaware of what the gear change provoked. If I take a big hit or even go down, I will play very differently then when I am tanky and can out sustain the damage, saving my defensive cooldowns for actual big hits for example.

    Which is another issue with your plain math example: no actual real life application since it only holds true if both sides just swing at each other, as mentioned by me earlier.

    (2): Your profession is still the same after changing gear.

    Untrue. A profession will play widely different between different gear choices.

    (3): Your skills and traits are going to be the same after changing gear.

    No they won't be. At least not their output will not be the same.

    (4): Enemies are going to be the same after changing gear.

    True, but the way they affect you will not.

    (5): The game formulae remains the same after changing gear.

    True.

    (6): You are deciding what gear that you yourself are using, and not somebody else.

    Irrelevant to this discussion.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    The game does not change in mysterious and unpredictable ways depending on gear choice, and neither do you. There is "no other actions" taken because you can only take the actions you take, and you cannot take the actions you didn't take. Boons still work in Soldier gear. Soldiers will always outlive berserker, because enemies don't magically do more damage when you have more health and armor. There is no scenario where you are not yourself.

    Yes, but that is not what you are putting to the test here. You are claiming that Soldier gear outperforms berserker and is damage efficient. No one is claiming that soldier gear will not outperform berserker gear. I am taking offense with your recommendation and claims that are going beyond that initial claim.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Not only can I make these claims, I am actively making them right now. The effective health x effective power product is the overall statistical strength of a set of gear. It is how much damage you do multiplied by how long you live while doing it. This product... it doesn't go away. In PVE if you're fighting a champion mob, or a veteran, or a swarm of normal mobs, or a world boss... the product is the same .

    This would only hold true if enemies did not have skills which, which they do just as players, increase their output in cycles. As such, killing something instantly for example, with a strong alpha, can have a very different result than being on a more tanky set and taking significantly longer. Which is actually an issue against enemies in pve. The chances are very high that, given the damage disparity between berserker gear and soldier gear, skill cooldowns and thus resulting damage and downtime after, a soldier geared player will be pressured a lot harder than a simple extended duration would suggest. Essentially making his higher survivability worthless.

    This example could be expanded upon to incorporate defensive cooldowns, multiple rotations, etc. All of which are not being taken into account by your simple math.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Listen to yourself. Your basically saying "all that math is meaningless, because the berserker gear has 25 might and uses fire grab while the soldier gear doesn't, has 25 vulnerability, and uses vapor blade. That makes the sigil of force better on berserker gear."

    No, I am saying:
    Your math is insufficient to make the claims you make because in order to make those claims, you need to look at all aspects which would affect the outcome of a fight.

    All your math has shown is that essentially the power stat has the biggest effect on power damage, up until a not really achievable break point, over precision and ferocity. Thus making soldier perform as well as possible for a power damage scenario while retaining 2 defensive stats. That is not the same as all the other claims you made.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I'm really not. Aliam did all three when he took issue with my claim that Soldiers is a good set. He cherry-picked a couple of videos to try to argue against me, and he purposefully neglected all of the little factors that go against his assertion. Condi duration, the direct damage component, on-crit effects, ramp up, etc.

    You're triggered. Take a deep breath.

    I think I was pretty clear that I took issue with your claim that soldier gear produces "surprisingly high damage." That is not the same thing as saying that soldier gear isn't "good." This is what I had to say about the video of the scrapper:

    "Here's a video from a player who runs tanky power gear with no precision or ferocity. His build also seems very survival-oriented on top of that. Obviously, the strategy is to outlast and he passes the test with flying colors! He doesn't seem remotely pressured even though he basically facetanks the entire fight with a flamethrower! Pretty impressive as this boss routinely wipes groups of players in open world!"

    I then went on to point out that I played a tanky tempest build that performed in similar fashion before sharing my weaver build for comparison. Why exactly am I playing a low damage build if I thumb my nose at low damage builds? Some sort of clever ruse I suppose? At no point did I make any judgement at all about Soldier gear and, in fact, I had this to say in conclusion:

    "I don't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with running soldier gear. But if you're going to run tanky you are objectively far better off running condition damage builds than power. For power builds that can take a bit more punishment, I highly recommend marauder for open world. It is a very good set because it gives you quite a lot of health, but doesn't skimp on those essential stats: power/precision/ferocity."

    So let me be clear: You do you, broski! I run tanky builds that deal jack for damage, too! I said so and I have had videos of it up on my channel for years to prove it! As it happens, I also do builds for new players that are designed to be super easy to use (unlike my weaver build), but extremely survivable. I am not in any way out to belittle people for choosing non-meta builds (my builds are never meta because I'm a solo open world/wvw roamer kind of player) or using tanky stats. I use tanky stats on my roaming build, too!

    No. You made some pretty clear statements on the nature of condition damage and power when comparing the two. Statements that are blatantly wrong. Then you delved into trolling when I pointed it out.

    Whatever you say, champ. Have a good one.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No you are not. Gear absolutely affects how I play my character and how I face different situations in game. By the very least in reaction to how my character is affected IF I am unaware of what the gear change provoked. If I take a big hit or even go down, I will play very differently then when I am tanky and can out sustain the damage, saving my defensive cooldowns for actual big hits for example.

    Which is another issue with your plain math example: no actual real life application since it only holds true if both sides just swing at each other, as mentioned by me earlier.

    You're just as skilled before you change gear as you are after. Purposefully playing differently doesn't devalue the math. In fact, it reinforces its truth, because then it means that you can press a clear statistical advantage.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Untrue. A profession will play widely different between different gear choices.

    No it doesn't.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    No they won't be. At least not their output will not be the same.

    Fire grab has a base value of 1.75 no matter what gear you wear.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    True, but the way they affect you will not.

    The enemy has the same attacks no matter what gear you wear.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Irrelevant to this discussion.

    It is, because you've made it.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, but that is not what you are putting to the test here. You are claiming that Soldier gear outperforms berserker and is damage efficient. No one is claiming that soldier gear will not outperform berserker gear. I am taking offense with your recommendation and claims that are going beyond that initial claim.

    No, I'm claiming that soldier gear has most of the damage of berserker gear, and it can outperforms berserker gear in high-pressure scenarios (WvW). I've proven this mathematically. Nothing I am saying goes beyond this initial claim. Your argument has been that all of the math I've done doesn't matter, because of skill, but then you immediately say you'd use superior bulk to preserve active defenses and maintain higher sustained damage uptime. THAT ONLY WORKS IF THE MATH IS TRUE!!!

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    This would only hold true if enemies did not have skills which, which they do just as players, increase their output in cycles. As such, killing something instantly for example, with a strong alpha, can have a very different result than being on a more tanky set and taking significantly longer. Which is actually an issue against enemies in pve. The chances are very high that, given the damage disparity between berserker gear and soldier gear, skill cooldowns and thus resulting damage and downtime after, a soldier geared player will be pressured a lot harder than a simple extended duration would suggest. Essentially making his higher survivability worthless.

    This example could be expanded upon to incorporate defensive cooldowns, multiple rotations, etc. All of which are not being taken into account by your simple math.

    No they won't. Soldiers has 62% of the damage with, in this example, 2.72 times the effective health. This means that the enemy lives 61% longer, which isn't enough to brute-force through active defenses and chew through 172% more health. Your whole point is BS. We've shown enumerable times that a berserker build has enough active defenses to fight champion and legendary mobs indefinitely. If a berserker can do it, then so can a soldier. Also, as I said originally, soldier is recommended in PVE until a player learns active defenses, or if they are casual and don't want to try too hard.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, I am saying:
    Your math is insufficient to make the claims you make because in order to make those claims, you need to look at all aspects which would affect the outcome of a fight.

    All your math has shown is that essentially the power stat has the biggest effect on power damage, up until a not really achievable break point, over precision and ferocity. Thus making soldier perform as well as possible for a power damage scenario while retaining 2 defensive stats. That is not the same as all the other claims you made.

    No, my math is sufficient. It just means you don't understand all of the examples I've given. You're fixated on the idea that there is a literal, real person sitting in WvW right now in full berserker gear, and that I cannot say that this real person would lose due to soldier gear because of skill and stuff. You've completely dismissed my explanation about these comparisons being introspective, just so you can nitpick. When I talk about fighting somebody in WvW, it is only as a analogy to demonstrate the superior overall statistical advantage that one gear set has over the other. I don't actually have a particular guy in mind who I'm trying to beat. When I say "win by default," it doesn't mean that you'll always win. It means that the other person has to play with more skill than you, because playing with equal skill means they'll lose due to gear inefficiency.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No you are not. Gear absolutely affects how I play my character and how I face different situations in game. By the very least in reaction to how my character is affected IF I am unaware of what the gear change provoked. If I take a big hit or even go down, I will play very differently then when I am tanky and can out sustain the damage, saving my defensive cooldowns for actual big hits for example.

    Which is another issue with your plain math example: no actual real life application since it only holds true if both sides just swing at each other, as mentioned by me earlier.

    You're just as skilled before you change gear as you are after. Purposefully playing differently doesn't devalue the math. In fact, it reinforces its truth, because then it means that you can press a clear statistical advantage.

    That is not the issue. The issue is behavior, which changes with different gear.

    Higher player skill would simply make berserker gear even more advantageous since a player would be able to make better use of their burst damage and active defenses. That's not even what I was talking about. I was keeping it very simple in that: if a player loses more of his total life available, they will change behavior. Or they might change behavior even earlier KNOWING that they have less life.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Untrue. A profession will play widely different between different gear choices.

    No it doesn't.

    Sure, what ever you say. I would disagree but then again, your math supports neither of our hypothetical arguments. As such this statement remains true or untrue depending on how one stands and understands their class. I personally play my classes very differently even with exactly similar specs but different gear. Maybe you don't but I wouldn't know.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    No they won't be. At least not their output will not be the same.

    Fire grab has a base value of 1.75 no matter what gear you wear.

    Yes, and in one case that will be sufficient to kill the enemy outright, in the other it won't, and already there we have a difference.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    True, but the way they affect you will not.

    The enemy has the same attacks no matter what gear you wear.

    Yes, but how often they get to use them differs for example.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, but that is not what you are putting to the test here. You are claiming that Soldier gear outperforms berserker and is damage efficient. No one is claiming that soldier gear will not outperform berserker gear. I am taking offense with your recommendation and claims that are going beyond that initial claim.

    No, I'm claiming that soldier gear has most of the damage of berserker gear, and it can outperforms berserker gear in high-pressure scenarios (WvW). I've proven this mathematically. Nothing I am saying goes beyond this initial claim.

    Go through all the claims you've made, or do you really want me to list them?

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Your argument has been that all of the math I've done doesn't matter, because of skill, but then you immediately say you'd use superior bulk to preserve active defenses and maintain higher sustained damage uptime. THAT ONLY WORKS IF THE MATH IS TRUE!!!

    My argument has been that you have gone beyond that claim that you now have gone back to. I disagree that all the claims you've made beyond that point that the majority of power damage comes from the power stats can be made. That is all I have said.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    This would only hold true if enemies did not have skills which, which they do just as players, increase their output in cycles. As such, killing something instantly for example, with a strong alpha, can have a very different result than being on a more tanky set and taking significantly longer. Which is actually an issue against enemies in pve. The chances are very high that, given the damage disparity between berserker gear and soldier gear, skill cooldowns and thus resulting damage and downtime after, a soldier geared player will be pressured a lot harder than a simple extended duration would suggest. Essentially making his higher survivability worthless.

    This example could be expanded upon to incorporate defensive cooldowns, multiple rotations, etc. All of which are not being taken into account by your simple math.

    No they won't. Soldiers has 62% of the damage with, in this example, 2.72 times the effective health. This means that the enemy lives 61% longer, which isn't enough to brute-force through active defenses and chew through 172% more health.

    Except if the enemy is dead or has to change behavior after losing life against berserker gear but not against only 62% of that damage. Which leads us back to what I said: your argument only works with opponents stupidly exchanging blows 1 to 1.

    There is a reason why spvp and wvw builds and gameplay revolves around damage spikes and not sustained damage.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Your whole point is BS. We've shown enumerable times that a berserker build has enough active defenses to fight champion and legendary mobs indefinitely. If a berserker can do it, then so can a soldier. Also, as I said originally, soldier is recommended in PVE until a player learns active defenses, or if they are casual and don't want to try too hard.

    Fighting an enemy longer requires in some situations more applications of those active defenses. Which in turn requires more attention and skill. The question is not if soldier gear can do it. The question is if it will always outperform berserker as you claim. A claim as I have said can not be proven with the simple math you've done.

    Your argument in this case works against you. If a player can do it in soldier gear, they will be able to do it in berserker gear since, given the limitations in self healing and disparity in pve enemy life versus damage done seldom allows for strait facetanking. If the player is able to use active defenses in soldier gear for an at least 40% longer time, they could have just as easy have done it in a fraction of the time on berserker.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, I am saying:
    Your math is insufficient to make the claims you make because in order to make those claims, you need to look at all aspects which would affect the outcome of a fight.

    All your math has shown is that essentially the power stat has the biggest effect on power damage, up until a not really achievable break point, over precision and ferocity. Thus making soldier perform as well as possible for a power damage scenario while retaining 2 defensive stats. That is not the same as all the other claims you made.

    No, my math is sufficient. It just means you don't understand all of the examples I've given. You're fixated on the idea that there is a literal, real person sitting in WvW right now in full berserker gear, and that I cannot say that this real person would lose due to soldier gear because of skill and stuff. You've completely dismissed my explanation about these comparisons being introspective, just so you can nitpick. When I talk about fighting somebody in WvW, it is only as a analogy to demonstrate the superior overall statistical advantage that one gear set has over the other. I don't actually have a particular guy in mind who I'm trying to beat. When I say "win by default," it doesn't mean that you'll always win. It means that the other person has to play with more skill than you, because playing with equal skill means they'll lose due to gear inefficiency.

    and I'm saying a statistical advantage is meaningless since other factors are of far bigger significance in nearly all scenarios. I've given examples where the statistical advantage can work against the player with soldier gear (mostly by not having pressure). As such, again, I disagree with your claim based ONLY on that one math example.

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    That is not the issue. The issue is behavior, which changes with different gear.

    Higher player skill would simply make berserker gear even more advantageous since a player would be able to make better use of their burst damage and active defenses. That's not even what I was talking about. I was keeping it very simple in that: if a player loses more of his total life available, they will change behavior. Or they might change behavior even earlier KNOWING that they have less life.

    Active defenses are not more effective depending on gear. A dodge is a dodge. Likewise, player behavior doesn't change that you yourself do not become more or less skilled when changing gear, nor does it negate that the game is essentially the same: don't get hit, hit them until they die. Things are only different if you play them differently, in which case my response is simple: don't do that.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Sure, what ever you say. I would disagree but then again, your math supports neither of our hypothetical arguments. As such this statement remains true or untrue depending on how one stands and understands their class. I personally play my classes very differently even with exactly similar specs but different gear. Maybe you don't but I wouldn't know.

    Yes, and in one case that will be sufficient to kill the enemy outright, in the other it won't, and already there we have a difference.

    Yes, but how often they get to use them differs for example.

    Quit nitpicking. You're just distracting from the point that gear choices are introspection, and the statistical advantage matters.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Go through all the claims you've made, or do you really want me to list them?

    List them, and cite them. You keep saying "my claim" over and over again, and I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    My argument has been that you have gone beyond that claim that you now have gone back to. I disagree that all the claims you've made beyond that point that the majority of power damage comes from the power stats can be made. That is all I have said.

    No I didn't.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Except if the enemy is dead or has to change behavior after losing life against berserker gear but not against only 62% of that damage. Which leads us back to what I said: your argument only works with opponents stupidly exchanging blows 1 to 1.

    You don't know how averages work. You still don't understand what introspection is.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is a reason why spvp and wvw builds and gameplay revolves around damage spikes and not sustained damage.

    Group healers.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Fighting an enemy longer requires in some situations more applications of those active defenses. Which in turn requires more attention and skill. The question is not if soldier gear can do it. The question is if it will always outperform berserker as you claim. A claim as I have said can not be proven with the simple math you've done.

    Yes it can, and I have. You're just making stuff up. I've proven that is is impossible for an enemy to do enough extra damage through prolonged life to overcompensate for the defenses that soldiers provides.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Your argument in this case works against you. If a player can do it in soldier gear, they will be able to do it in berserker gear since, given the limitations in self healing and disparity in pve enemy life versus damage done seldom allows for strait facetanking. If the player is able to use active defenses in soldier gear for a at least 40% longer time, they could have just as easy done it in a fraction of the time on berserker.

    No it doesn't. It just means you haven't been paying attention.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    and I'm saying a statistical advantage is meaningless since other factors are of far bigger significance in nearly all scenarios. I've given examples where the statistical advantage can work against the player with soldier gear (mostly by not having pressure). As such, again, I disagree with your claim based ONLY on that one math example.

    How do you think this game works, exactly? It works off of stats. You can't play this game with anything BUT stats. If I follow what you've said here to its logical conclusion, it would be that players should not bother with upgrading their equipment beyond common gear, because statistical advantages are meaningless. So, clearly, stats are meaningful.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    I've run alot of different gears and builds in this game over the years, including using Soldiers back during its hayday when it was the WvW version of Berserker's gear, and pretty much everyone in the game was either PVT or zerker.

    So I'll talk about this from a "tanking" perspective, i.e, open-world, dungeon solo and similar.

    Statistically, its often exceeded by gear combinations like Valkyrie/Captain or Knight/Cavalier (or 4-stat gears like Marauders in various combinations) for DPS while providing little extra defense in comparison. The only real use it has is on classes that can crit cap and have very high Critical Damage with very little base Precision or Ferocity, like Necro and Guardian before Retaliation nerf.

    But it does still have use, just on very niche builds that already overstack certain stats. Thief maybe could too?

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 15k hours, ~27k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Alisha Kei/Druid(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW)

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I've run alot of different gears and builds in this game over the years, including using PVT back during its hayday when it was the WvW version of Berserker gear, and pretty much everyone in the game was either PVT or zerker.

    Statistically, its often exceeded by gear combinations like Valkyrie/Captain or Knight/Cavalier (or 4-stat gears like Marauders in various combinations) for DPS while providing little extra defense in comparison. The only real use it has is on classes that can crit cap and have very high Critical Damage with very little base Precision or Ferocity, like Necro and Guardian before Retaliation nerf.

    You don't understand, man. This isn't about performance in actual gameplay scenarios. It's about winning the internet. Try and keep up.

    Pretty much this.

    I out. If someone wants to talk up soldiers, let them. I can just hope not to many players take that person serious.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As someone who has been running this set on one of my favourite Necro builds since before HoT came out I have to disagree with those who call the set worthless or trash.
    The main use I get out of Soldiers is on a Minon Master for several reasons.

    1. Power, Toughness, Vitality is a good stat set that can play to Necro's strengths as a high HP, durable class without completely crippling their damage output.

    2. Necros have access to a decent amount of sustain potential to further make use of that durability, especially through minions which also help get a little more damage out as well which is beneficial to this stat set since Minions have fixed damage and do not benefit from running Zerkers or any other DPS focused stat sets.

    3. Necromancers can completely ignore putting precision stat on their gear and still be capable of putting out anywhere between 55%-100% crit chance purely through traits, sigils and other sources while also gaining some bonus to their Ferocity to slightly increase their outgoing crit damage without again investing any gear stats into ferocity either.
      In small groups/party's you can rely on your team mates to boost both your damage and your crits by a respectable amount while you can be on the front lines taking all the aggro and still contributing to the teams overall damage output and survival.

    It's decent enough for soloing too if you're into that, Halloween aint far off again, I am looking forward to soloing the Lab Horror and Grand Viscount at the same time again.
    Just a fun thing I like to do each year ^^

  • I'll take that as rescinding the claim that I am a liar.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Teratus , You can get similar tankiness with marauder + cavalier's trinkets. That's why it's normally run on power WvW necros (scourge/reapers alike) , approximating demolisher amulet in PvP. If it's for WvW you can wear marauder + captain's or cavalier's trinkets with durability runes (+10% health and +175 toughness) , scrapper rune (7% damage reduction and +100 toughness), reaper rune (+225 toughness , which is essentially half armor or the amulet+ring+trinket set), or brawler rune (+225 toughness) if you need even more armor level because the 5% bonus on scholar rune is irrelevant quite often.
    Generally you can attain far more tankiness on trailblazer condi builds (for example condi scourge or revenant after the corruption traitline rework) provided the build isn't reliant on critical hits or any precision to condition damage trait interactions (for example for weavers the burn on critical hit from Burning Precision or the lesser used Arcane Precision). It's also a bad idea if conditions aren't applied on autoattack and most skills since power makes up a greater portion of damage.

    @ Original poster, I wouldn't run full soldier's in PvE if you ever intend to do instanced content of any kind. Even with banners, spotter, fury, and assassin's presence (for ferocity) the crit rate will be rather low (~35%). It's fine for openworld because you aren't wasting everyone else's time in your party or squad; I totally understand some people just want to semi-afk and tag random mobs. In addition, aggro is sometimes toughness based and some attacks outright ignore armor since they are percentage based.

    Technically speaking, it's generally better to have healing power if you actually have some form of sustain reliant on healing power (whether it is virtue of resolve, battle scars, barriers , or otherwise) instead of vitality for PvE unless it prevents you from going down to an attack (in which marauder would be superior). The issue is that healing power is usually mixed into condition damage sets such as Apothecary or Plaguedoctor : the main stat choices that doesn't nuke your damage if you mix a few pieces in are Marshal's or Zealot's. You see this in fractals when there is frailty active , reduced health isn't as much of a problem unless you're a full zerk tempest ele when protection from overloads isn't up (as opposed to weaver with Master's Fortitude traited instead of Superior elements) or thief not running marauder's resilience with the outflanked instability at the same time.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    As someone who has been running this set on one of my favourite Necro builds since before HoT came out I have to disagree with those who call the set worthless or trash.
    The main use I get out of Soldiers is on a Minon Master for several reasons.

    1. Power, Toughness, Vitality is a good stat set that can play to Necro's strengths as a high HP, durable class without completely crippling their damage output.

    2. Necros have access to a decent amount of sustain potential to further make use of that durability, especially through minions which also help get a little more damage out as well which is beneficial to this stat set since Minions have fixed damage and do not benefit from running Zerkers or any other DPS focused stat sets.

    3. Necromancers can completely ignore putting precision stat on their gear and still be capable of putting out anywhere between 55%-100% crit chance purely through traits, sigils and other sources while also gaining some bonus to their Ferocity to slightly increase their outgoing crit damage without again investing any gear stats into ferocity either.
      In small groups/party's you can rely on your team mates to boost both your damage and your crits by a respectable amount while you can be on the front lines taking all the aggro and still contributing to the teams overall damage output and survival.

    It's decent enough for soloing too if you're into that, Halloween aint far off again, I am looking forward to soloing the Lab Horror and Grand Viscount at the same time again.
    Just a fun thing I like to do each year ^^

    I play Minion Master Reaper in full zerker gear and do just fine. The insane sustain you get from minions + Blood Magic allows you to literally face tank Champions without an issue.

    Soldier gear is still trash.

    Cat: Meow.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:

    Soldier gear is still trash.

    Agreed. Some trash might have minor usefulness to a particular kind of player, though.

    In that regard, I think Soldier's is oddly perfect for the kind of player who thinks it's a good idea to buy an 80 boost for a game they're totally new to. They're probably making a ton of assumptions about GW2 based on their other gaming experiences, are likely a bit impatient, and almost 100% do not read tooltips. For this kind of player, it probably makes sense to give them a set that stacks Vitality for a bit of anti-condi padding, Toughness to reduce those power spikes, and Power... well because on its face power is simpler than condi (the latter has duration, intensity, and type differences). Of course maximizing power bursts can take relatively complex setups too, but we're not talking about that type of player. Soldier's will help this kind of player not die instantaneously, and perhaps if they stick around long enough to try harder content, they'll come to know (or be loudly told) that Soldier's is garbage and be recommended other stats based on what/how they want to play.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:

    Soldier gear is still trash.

    Agreed. Some trash might have minor usefulness to a particular kind of player, though.

    In that regard, I think Soldier's is oddly perfect for the kind of player who thinks it's a good idea to buy an 80 boost for a game they're totally new to. They're probably making a ton of assumptions about GW2 based on their other gaming experiences, are likely a bit impatient, and almost 100% do not read tooltips. For this kind of player, it probably makes sense to give them a set that stacks Vitality for a bit of anti-condi padding, Toughness to reduce those power spikes, and Power... well because on its face power is simpler than condi (the latter has duration, intensity, and type differences). Of course maximizing power bursts can take relatively complex setups too, but we're not talking about that type of player. Soldier's will help this kind of player not die instantaneously, and perhaps if they stick around long enough to try harder content, they'll come to know (or be loudly told) that Soldier's is garbage and be recommended other stats based on what/how they want to play.

    Yeah, Soldier is decent for newbies that have yet to really experience content as it gives a lot of buffer for when they fail to use their dodges (Or while they figure out what all the Bounty modifiers do in PoF)

    Be they insta-boosted to level 80, or someone who simply went through Core Tyria zones doing map completions and thus never really encountered anything of any note or really had to care about gear beyond the (Garbage) they were given from level up rewards/personal story and ended up picking up some gear from the Karma vendors in Orr.

    Outside of that, Soldier is just kind of bad. Marauder or Zealot would provide better Tanky Power builds, while Carrion/Rabid or Dire/Trailblazer would provide better Tanky Condi builds. With Carrion/Rabid/Dire being as easily attained as Soldier gear due to being purchasable off the TP for like 30s a piece (While Marauder/Zealot/Trailblazer are HoT stats and so a bit more of a hassle to obtain)

    Cat: Meow.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    @Teratus , You can get similar tankiness with marauder + cavalier's trinkets. That's why it's normally run on power WvW necros (scourge/reapers alike) , approximating demolisher amulet in PvP. If it's for WvW you can wear marauder + captain's or cavalier's trinkets with durability runes (+10% health and +175 toughness) , scrapper rune (7% damage reduction and +100 toughness), reaper rune (+225 toughness , which is essentially half armor or the amulet+ring+trinket set), or brawler rune (+225 toughness) if you need even more armor level because the 5% bonus on scholar rune is irrelevant quite often.
    Generally you can attain far more tankiness on trailblazer condi builds (for example condi scourge or revenant after the corruption traitline rework) provided the build isn't reliant on critical hits or any precision to condition damage trait interactions (for example for weavers the burn on critical hit from Burning Precision or the lesser used Arcane Precision). It's also a bad idea if conditions aren't applied on autoattack and most skills since power makes up a greater portion of damage.

    WvW is a whole different animal to PvE, I wouldn't run a Soldiers Minion Master there for many reasons.
    It's far harder to maintain crit chance on other players with soldiers there which makes it impractical, I too use a mix of Marauder and cavalier on my WvW necro build.
    No minions there due to them being trash in competitive also means I can't use them as a form of sustain either.
    So yeah while that stat combo is tanky and it is good, It's not as tanky as a Soldiers Minion Master can be in PvE.

    @Taril.8619 said:
    I play Minion Master Reaper in full zerker gear and do just fine. The insane sustain you get from minions + Blood Magic allows you to literally face tank Champions without an issue.

    Soldier gear is still trash.

    Glassy Minion Masters are also good, but they don't have anywhere near the survivability of a Tanky Minion Master.
    Soloing champions is pretty easy these days on pretty much any class, even with glassy builds, Necro's especially are very good at soloing champions.
    Legendaries though, they are a far better solo challenge if you're into that stuff.
    You won't be taking many of those things down alone with glass builds.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Going to chime in from a WvW perspective. PVT gear, either as Soldiers or Sentinels, is fairly good there. I ran a Sentinel/Berserker mix post Fed. patch (a few trinkets were zerker, and so were my weapons, I don't have a full set of Leggy gear yet). I had high power, 50% crit chance with Fury up, extra Ferocity from Axe Mastery, Vampiric Runes for extra HP and power. I tanked a zerker deadeye's opening burst and downed them with a short combo. Having high effective health will keep you very healthy after someone blows their cooldowns in an attempt to 1-shot you. Most 1-shot builds die if you sneeze on them, including with PVT gear. Yes, if you are able to get precision and ferocity from somewhere PVT gear is much better, a Reaper for instance would be terrifying with it (pun not intended).

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 is right on the relative math btw for those tracking internet wins.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Marauder is the best all rounder Power set yu will ever need if yu wanna balance durability with Power damage.

    Just ditch the Soldier.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.