Fast Hands Baseline needed more than ever ......

In our current state, would Fast Hands baseline help improve our viability ? What are your thoughts?

@Mack.3045 said:In our current state, would Fast Hands baseline help improve our viability ? What are your thoughts?

Seeing as that has been asked for since launch and we have not received it, my guess is that it will not happen. To me it is as much a part of the warrior mechanic as Bursts are. But hey, lets dream. Make the 5s CD weapon swap warrior baseline, change Fast Hands to provide swiftness on weapon swap (5s) usable out of combat.

A warrior can dream.....

Fine, we’ll stop asking for fasthands to be baseline. Instead we’ll ask for the 5sec reduction to be changed to 5sec stealth on weapon swap.

major problem right now with warrior is that, warrior is limited in skill numbers, but after the update,all warrior utilities now does 0 damage except one skill from berserker that does a little damage.warrior is probably the only class that has 0 damaging utility skills.

on top of all, all CC from weapon does 0 damage as well.it basically limited warrior's damage option by a ton, even tho warrior's damage option is already limited to begin with.

Like engi can take defensive weapon set and rely on grenade utility for damage.so now you need fast hand more then ever unless you want to lock in weapon set with 0 pressure output.

the only builds that doesnt require fast hand is healbreaker, as it has another option from utility for it's prime purpose aka healing.but for damage, there's no way to relie on any utility for damage, they only buff what's already doing damage..it doesnt give you more damage opportunity.

Its pretty much impossible to drop discipline traitline on a power build because it has 2 major QoL traits in Fast hands and Warriors Sprint.

That being said, it would also help if Rifle, Mace, Mace OH, and Hammer weren't trash.

also

Offhand Sword 5 needs to stay blocking and become a flip skill.

and Offhand Axe 5 needs to reflect.

When you look at traits and weapons that need fixing, Warrior by far needs the biggest rework because of February and other issues existing prior due to straight up neglect/ignorance to the current state of the game's combat.

@TeqkOneStylez.8047 said:...and Offhand Axe 5 needs to reflect...

That would be pretty absurd when you compare it to Whirling Defense. I mean sure, buff it, but then Whirling Defense needs to not be a channeled skill, give you 50% movement speed, deal 20% more damage and also take 10s off the CD.

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@TeqkOneStylez.8047 said:...and Offhand Axe 5 needs to reflect...

First of all. Adding a reflect is the only utility buff it should have ever recieved in the history of the skill. And if we are bringing up consistency then it needs a reflect because thief stolen cyclone axe has the reflect.

And if we wanna do that again then rifle volley should track an enemy even if they port behind you, because thats what ranger rapid fire does. Same skill logic.

@TeqkOneStylez.8047 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@TeqkOneStylez.8047 said:...and Offhand Axe 5 needs to reflect...

I have to agree with Heimskarl Ashfiend that it would be kinda weird to give reflect to whirling axe. It would make whirling axe and whirling defense too similar, both would do the same thing while warrior's version is just straight up better because it is mobile.And both are offhand axe skills, just on different classes.

And taking the stolen skill as an argument doesn't really make sense. Warrior's version hits for a power coefficient of 8,4 while the stolen skill hits with a coefficient of 4,5.Your logic would mean that we have to buff thief's stolen skill hard.

Would be way to strong tbh. Been playing since beta.

@"Mack.3045" said:In our current state, would Fast Hands baseline help improve our viability ? What are your thoughts?

Maybe, but that's not a reason to make it baseline.

Be very careful here .. this has been discussed at length and as far as I'm concerned, the proponents argued themselves into the completely opposite course of action and didn't even realize it. If FH is THIS good that it's desirable to make it baseline because it's so beneficial to all warrior builds ... there is actually a strong argument for a nerf, not a baseline buff. Traits are there to give players meaningful choices ... if FH is determined to be an 'always on' trait, it's not meaningful ... nerfing it will make it such. Don't think Anet won't do it either ... it happened with Necro Vital Persistence for EXACTLY that reasoning.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72573/discipline-more-specifically-fast-hands/p1

I am not sure what you guys are doing and what I am doing.... But I've been able to work around builds that do not have fast hands and do well with them.I must admit.. i do put my hand up, I used to want fast hands as a base line trait. When you start playing without it, getting used to the swap time difference, knowing your skill cooldowns, you really don't need it as a must trait.

This will never happen and it should not. If every class struggling in sPvP meta gets major trait line skills moved to baseline, in less than a year the all classes would be doing 3-4x current damage and sustainability.

Dunno, would still take discipline for war sprint and burst mastery...

@Smoosh.2718 said:I am not sure what you guys are doing and what I am doing.... But I've been able to work around builds that do not have fast hands and do well with them.I must admit.. i do put my hand up, I used to want fast hands as a base line trait. When you start playing without it, getting used to the swap time difference, knowing your skill cooldowns, you really don't need it as a must trait.

True story, but too many people have played with it for so long, along with Warrior's Sprint, that their muscle memory cannot handle anything else.

Discipline is literally stapled on every build for warrior on every mode, the class doesn't work without it. The line is so mandatory that warrior has been balanced around it for years and it just assumed that it will be picked. Condition build, power build, support build all have discipline, only meta build that doesn't use it is the WvW zerg WoD one where the weapons don't matter and its only purpose is to drop WoD.Warrior just doesn't work, it has the most weapon options but they don't work and having so many options and most of them useless or way too niche to be useful, has one mandatory trait line so there is not much room for variation. At least the one allowed build should be great, but that is not the case.

@Kodama.6453 said:

@TeqkOneStylez.8047 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@TeqkOneStylez.8047 said:...and Offhand Axe 5 needs to reflect...

And both Whirling Defense and Cyclone being axe skills means nothing. There are plenty of similar skills across classes already and these 2 don't even have the same animation like the other crossovers.

Also for a final point, Warrior should absolutely have superior melee skills / melee damage over Ranger in concept anyways. You forget you also have 2 pets for extra separate dmg and utility. Even so , this hasn't even held true historically as multiple times Ranger has ended up with 1 shot builds on core and not so long ago soulbeast due to modifier stacking.

You can call it a gimmick but you have the extra utilities including stealth to make it work better than any 1 shot warrior gimmick build would.

@"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:The problem with offhand axe on Warrior for years was not the dmg. It was the fact that there is no reason to drop shield to take it because it has no defensive utility at all and is not going to be the deciding factor on whether or not you are able to kill. They just kept buffing it incorrectly. They can take back the movement speed.

And both Whirling Defense and Cyclone being axe skills means nothing. There are plenty of similar skills across classes already and these 2 don't even have the same animation like the other crossovers.

Also for a final point, Warrior should absolutely have superior melee skills / melee damage over Ranger in concept anyways. You forget you also have 2 pets for extra separate dmg and utility. Even so , this hasn't even held true historically as multiple times Ranger has ended up with 1 shot builds on core and not so long ago soulbeast due to modifier stacking.

You can call it a gimmick but you have the extra utilities including stealth to make it work better than any 1 shot warrior gimmick build would.

Yes, axe offhand doesn't have defensive utility.It isn't supposed to have defense.

Axe offhand is all about dps, that much is obvious. Skill 4 deals damage and grants you 4 seconds of quickness to further increase your damage.Skill 5 hits for a coefficient of up to 8,4 and cleaves 5 targets.The axe trait is granting ferocity and adrenaline on critical strikes.Absolutely everything about axe is screaming you in the face "this weapon is all about damage and nothing else".

Not every offhand weapon has to have defensive features. If you want defense, you have plenty of other weapons to chose from.Shield is the full defense variant with 2 seconds of stun and a long lasting block (3 seconds), can also get traited to reflect projectiles.Sword as a mix of defense and offense with a single skill block in melee or a 2,5 seconds block against ranged attacks.Dagger as another mix of defense and offense with 1,5 seconds of reflect.

Axe is the option if you want to forego any defense and go all in on damage.

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:The problem with offhand axe on Warrior for years was not the dmg. It was the fact that there is no reason to drop shield to take it because it has no defensive utility at all and is not going to be the deciding factor on whether or not you are able to kill. They just kept buffing it incorrectly. They can take back the movement speed.

And both Whirling Defense and Cyclone being axe skills means nothing. There are plenty of similar skills across classes already and these 2 don't even have the same animation like the other crossovers.

Also for a final point, Warrior should absolutely have superior melee skills / melee damage over Ranger in concept anyways. You forget you also have 2 pets for extra separate dmg and utility. Even so , this hasn't even held true historically as multiple times Ranger has ended up with 1 shot builds on core and not so long ago soulbeast due to modifier stacking.

You can call it a gimmick but you have the extra utilities including stealth to make it work better than any 1 shot warrior gimmick build would.

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:The problem with offhand axe on Warrior for years was not the dmg. It was the fact that there is no reason to drop shield to take it because it has no defensive utility at all and is not going to be the deciding factor on whether or not you are able to kill. They just kept buffing it incorrectly. They can take back the movement speed.

And both Whirling Defense and Cyclone being axe skills means nothing. There are plenty of similar skills across classes already and these 2 don't even have the same animation like the other crossovers.

Also for a final point, Warrior should absolutely have superior melee skills / melee damage over Ranger in concept anyways. You forget you also have 2 pets for extra separate dmg and utility. Even so , this hasn't even held true historically as multiple times Ranger has ended up with 1 shot builds on core and not so long ago soulbeast due to modifier stacking.

You can call it a gimmick but you have the extra utilities including stealth to make it work better than any 1 shot warrior gimmick build would.

I'm talking about PVP.

@"Lighter.5631" said:major problem right now with warrior is that, warrior is limited in skill numbers, but after the update,all warrior utilities now does 0 damage except one skill from berserker that does a little damage.warrior is probably the only class that has 0 damaging utility skills.

on top of all, all CC from weapon does 0 damage as well.it basically limited warrior's damage option by a ton, even tho warrior's damage option is already limited to begin with.

Like engi can take defensive weapon set and rely on grenade utility for damage.so now you need fast hand more then ever unless you want to lock in weapon set with 0 pressure output.

the only builds that doesnt require fast hand is healbreaker, as it has another option from utility for it's prime purpose aka healing.but for damage, there's no way to relie on any utility for damage, they only buff what's already doing damage..it doesnt give you more damage opportunity.

Yeah I agree with you what they did is just lazy step, making all CC does super little damage is not a solution, not every CC is easy to land.I think warrior's damage got butchered a lot when they did the "CC does 0 damage" patch, and they didn't even give something back. Might as well try to look at warrior again to rework/rebalance if they keeping the CC does 0 damage.

@TeqkOneStylez.8047 said:

I'm talking about PVP.

Mechanics are not split between PvE and PvP, they are just doing number changes.

So if you want reflect on axe 5 in PvP, then it will also get it in PvE.And I still think that axe 5 shouldn't reflect. Better changes for it would be to first fix the bug that is preventing you to get the additional movement speed so you can better stick on your target to damage them and maybe it could also apply vulnerability. But warrior's axe is not supposed to be a defensive weapon, so they shouldn't tag on defensive mechanics on it.

One thing i do vote for though, Warhorn to provide Superspeed not Swiftness!

@TeqkOneStylez.8047 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@TeqkOneStylez.8047 said:...and Offhand Axe 5 needs to reflect...

Serious? Ok, lets make volley track an enemy if they port behind you. I'm ok with that! Let's just also at the same time make Rapid Fire pierce without being traited, an ammo skill and do the same higher damage as Volley with half the attacks required to hit, 5 vs 10. We can do this all day.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:5.6 coefficient in WvW and PvP. It also has a smaller radius than Whirling Defense. Whirling Defense also grants retaliation and stacks vulnerability on a foe. All things considered WD offers more even offensively than WA.I would agree with you, if you could move while channeling WD and it had a different boon and condition. Retaliation is Defensive and having vulnerability stacked on you is also defensive, to get you to move away from and stop attacking the Ranger. Usually you just get interrupted, but that's beside the point. Sure, you CAN use it offensively, but you can do the same with Traited Shield Stance.

@Smoosh.2718 said:One thing i do vote for though, Warhorn to provide Superspeed not Swiftness!This.

Perhaps Fast Hands can just be added to other weapon traits? Such as Dual Wielding to improve Arms, or make it interact with Soldier's Focus? For example, instead of granting might on activation, Soldier's Focus could provide a buff that makes the next weapon swap recharge faster.

fast hand base wont change anything, discipline is still mandatory for damage build.condition on swap is too crucial, warrior lacks easy condi removal, like even with shake it off and mending, warrior still dies to cheap small portion application condition builds.so is immob removal on movement skill and perma 25% speed (as a primary melee class)and burst master..like all mandatory to even survive in pvp..

anything is droppable except the whole discipline line for pvp damage build.warrior can't do enough stuff with only one weapon set..unless anet decided to give warrior kit or transform or AI or 0 CD or aoe field, that allows you do stuff while maintaining in the same weapon set...