WvW - Mesmer problem

Full Counter would have been a good counter against Mesmer only because Thief is the profession that specialized in throwing daggers -- but I digress. So my problem is still Mesmers in WvW. With the addition of Mirage, they've become even more PITA than they used to be. Staff Bounding D/D makes it a fair fight but DE seems to be underpowered.

So my question is, how do you handle Mirage using DE?

As a DE, you can out stealth them and outrange them. Keep in mind DJ and Three round are channeled so they will track. Mirage's mobility is...weird. don't let them get in Melee range. When they stealth, you stealth. You both have the element of surprise at any given time, yours can hurt more.

Call target really helps.

Axes of Symmetry breaks targetting so that's a no go.

Yes I used DJ and have wasted them on clones.

I guess more specific; As a Daredevil, I have a lot of AoE burst that can shatter illusions rather easily (Staff 5 and Bound). As DE, what do you use to shatter illusions?

DE's utility skills don't deal enough AoE damage to force a shatter. Just compare that to Bound's damage.

Other than this Mirage problem, I'm starting to get used to the DE's playstyle.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Full Counter would have been a good counter against Mesmer only because Thief is the profession that specialized in throwing daggers -- but I digress. So my problem is still Mesmers in WvW. With the addition of Mirage, they've become even more PITA than they used to be. Staff Bounding D/D makes it a fair fight but DE seems to be underpowered.

So my question is, how do you handle Mirage using DE?

Deadly Arts mid/mid/midTrickDE mid/mid/midD/P offsetWithdraw, Mercy, Shadowstep, SoA, Meld

Rifle. Just don't stop firing and keep range. I don't think I've lost to a Mirage when roaming Rifle. Get your mark off, use your mark ability to stun and spam double-tap. When they break and go stealth or invulnerable, auto attack the clones, 1 crit usually gets rid of each, sometimes 2 shots are needed. Death's retreat when they reappear/are vulnerable to attack again, use 2nd mark ability (improv) and quickness-auto down more clones or pressure the mes. If they close in on you, DR and Meld to reposition yourself as close to max range as you can and continue pressuring. Try to get that Cursed Bullet off if you can, but if not, no biggie, won't make or break the fight. Once there is an opening (right after a dodge preferrably) use mercy then re-mark the mes/use mark for stun and spam double tap. Usually they are down at this point. If not, I swap to my offset of D/P and shadowshot to cap close/cleave. I don't know what to do after this, since I haven't encountered ones that haven't either died or ran by that point.

DR makes this build a lot more survivable than one would think. I perform much better with this than when using stealth/SA DE, but then again, I've never much been a fan of stealth-camping as Thief other than waiting for the initial engage playing D/P. Though for the past year I have been playing power S/D, which this DE build is more related to in terms of pace.

@Turk.5460 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Full Counter would have been a good counter against Mesmer only because Thief is the profession that specialized in throwing daggers -- but I digress. So my problem is still Mesmers in WvW. With the addition of Mirage, they've become even more PITA than they used to be. Staff Bounding D/D makes it a fair fight but DE seems to be underpowered.

So my question is, how do you handle Mirage using DE?

So you don't ever kneel?

Once there is an opening (right after a dodge preferrably) use mercy then re-mark the mes/use mark for stun

This I gotta try. I was leaning away from Mercy only because it seems to just sit there in my bar and not getting used. Also I opted for CS instead of DA, but I see how it's working for you -- that double Quickness from Improv might be the one that can give me a win.

What's your gear, runes, trinks, etc. are like?

@Turk.5460 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Full Counter would have been a good counter against Mesmer only because Thief is the profession that specialized in throwing daggers -- but I digress. So my problem is still Mesmers in WvW. With the addition of Mirage, they've become even more PITA than they used to be. Staff Bounding D/D makes it a fair fight but DE seems to be underpowered.

So my question is, how do you handle Mirage using DE?

So you don't ever kneel?

Once there is an opening (right after a dodge preferrably) use mercy then re-mark the mes/use mark for stun

This I gotta try. I was leaning away from Mercy only because it seems to just sit there in my bar and not getting used. Also I opted for CS instead of DA, but I see how it's working for you -- that double Quickness from Improv might be the one that can give me a win.

What's your gear, runes, trinks, etc. are like?

No, kneeling is no good with this build unless you are with at least one other player and know when the focus is off you for a few seconds. I guess it would be OK if you catch your enemy COMPLETELY off guard, and can kneel within range before they even see you. Its a given that TRB would be more effective than Double Tap as a follow-up to Mark/Stun. But I try to anticipate what their movement will be after my initial burst, and move closer (or further away) while they are stun/bursted.

Another thing to keep in mind is if you cast Mark when you see your enemy dodge, the mark will land as their dodge ends. Really throws them off.

Force/Air on Rifle - Generosity/Bloodlust on D/PArmor is Marauder with Pack, Trinkets are Zerk

Rifle. Just don't stop firing and keep range. I don't think I've lost to a Mirage when roaming Rifle. Get your mark off, use your mark ability to stun and spam double-tap. When they break and go stealth or invulnerable, auto attack the clones, 1 crit usually gets rid of each, sometimes 2 shots are needed. Death's retreat when they reappear/are vulnerable to attack again, use 2nd mark ability (improv) and quickness-auto down more clones or pressure the mes. If they close in on you, DR and Meld to reposition yourself as close to max range as you can and continue pressuring. Try to get that Cursed Bullet off if you can, but if not, no biggie, won't make or break the fight. Once there is an opening (right after a dodge preferrably) use mercy then re-mark the mes/use mark for stun and spam double tap. Usually they are down at this point. If not, I swap to my offset of D/P and shadowshot to cap close/cleave. I don't know what to do after this, since I haven't encountered ones that haven't either died or ran by that point.

DR makes this build a lot more survivable than one would think. I perform much better with this than when using stealth/SA DE, but then again, I've never much been a fan of stealth-camping as Thief other than waiting for the initial engage playing D/P. Though for the past year I have been playing power S/D, which this DE build is more related to in terms of pace.

I highly doubt that works against a power mirage with all the leaps/ports/dodges and stealth. Theirs no way you can keep him at range because he has way higher in-combat mobility. When roaming as mirage I usually try to stun spam thieves to death and it works quite well. Greatsword has 1200 range DE has not much range superiority.

I think the most important rule against mirage is never go into melee range if you run a squishy build because the special dodge lets him ignore all damage while he can burst you at the same time and dont get fooled by the mesmer not having clones out because mirage can basicaly spam two clones instantly which can like all power shatter builds almost one hit zerker specs.

I kill DE's on Mirage through reflection (dueling), and interruptions (Chaotic interruption). I manage to get close to DE's with sword ambush and Jaunts.IN most cases i use Illusionary ambush after i have no endurance, meaning after the ambush im vunerable.

If i use mobility to get to u, i cant use it again to get away from u. I can only burst clear 4 conditions at once with dodge + mantra.If im in need to do this twice, im seriously in danger, and vunerable to a combo of any condition + immobilize.

I will only run duelling when i specifically want to fight a DE/hunter, so if u catch me in my "normal state", i won't have reflects.Avoid beeing interrupted.

Sword ambush cant be combined with jaunt to extend the stun (ambush->Jaunt)U can only use Jaunt into Sword ambush, meaning if i Jaunt CLOSER to u, im probably going to use sword ambush. Get away then.

If u use illusionary Ambush, while i wear Staff, i WILL change to sword pre using my ambush - be aware of this.

I die to DE's, when they burst me out of stealth. It's a 50% thing then - am i quick enough for the F4/dodge - targeting u - ambush - heal+cover/dodge, or do u manage to interrupt anything of it.

F4 is only 1 second if i need to push it immediately, so i will most likely only dodge in the begining.

Watch closely for Distortion or Mirage Cloak.

Distortion means i am going to be vunerable, Mirage Cloak means, i will have Distortion ready and u should bait it.

My view as ur opponent, maybe it can help (:

@Turk.5460 said:No, kneeling is no good with this build unless you are with at least one other player and know when the focus is off you for a few seconds. I guess it would be OK if you catch your enemy COMPLETELY off guard, and can kneel within range before they even see you. Its a given that TRB would be more effective than Double Tap as a follow-up to Mark/Stun. But I try to anticipate what their movement will be after my initial burst, and move closer (or further away) while they are stun/bursted.

Another thing to keep in mind is if you cast Mark when you see your enemy dodge, the mark will land as their dodge ends. Really throws them off.

Force/Air on Rifle - Generosity/Bloodlust on D/PArmor is Marauder with Pack, Trinkets are Zerk

I see what I'm missing now. I currently have Bersek/Valk armor so I need to change that. Also I carry Scholar Rune, but I can see how the Pack is better in a more mobile playstyle.

Wow, that's a lot of work for me. Thanks.

Bevor I forget here is a good Power Mirage guide:

Should help you to understand the class and find a way to deal with it.

@Mayama.1854 said:

Rifle. Just don't stop firing and keep range. I don't think I've lost to a Mirage when roaming Rifle. Get your mark off, use your mark ability to stun and spam double-tap. When they break and go stealth or invulnerable, auto attack the clones, 1 crit usually gets rid of each, sometimes 2 shots are needed. Death's retreat when they reappear/are vulnerable to attack again, use 2nd mark ability (improv) and quickness-auto down more clones or pressure the mes. If they close in on you, DR and Meld to reposition yourself as close to max range as you can and continue pressuring. Try to get that Cursed Bullet off if you can, but if not, no biggie, won't make or break the fight. Once there is an opening (right after a dodge preferrably) use mercy then re-mark the mes/use mark for stun and spam double tap. Usually they are down at this point. If not, I swap to my offset of D/P and shadowshot to cap close/cleave. I don't know what to do after this, since I haven't encountered ones that haven't either died or ran by that point.

DR makes this build a lot more survivable than one would think. I perform much better with this than when using stealth/SA DE, but then again, I've never much been a fan of stealth-camping as Thief other than waiting for the initial engage playing D/P. Though for the past year I have been playing power S/D, which this DE build is more related to in terms of pace.

Well...

@Turk.5460 said:I don't think I've lost to a Mirage when roaming Rifle.

I know I haven't lost to a power mirage. They are much easier to deal with in the way I posted above than condi. And the chances that every power mirage I've faced over the past month has been a complete potato are very slim. Mes GS has nothing on DE Rifle from range when going against each other. The only thing Mes GS can reliably land from range is Mind Stab, because Mirror Blade and Phantasmal Berserker we can see coming from a mile away, and if the Mirage is auto attacking with GS while the DE is still firing their rifle, the Mirage already lost the fight.

Thanks for the Mesmer perspective inputs, that helps a lot on understanding how you think. I have no problem tracking the Mesmer, my problem is the clones -- I want to shatter them before the Mesmer gets the chance to. Turk.5460 just showed me that using DA, I can extend Quickness 3x longer (BQoBK + 2x Stolen item) which I believe would be enough time to clear the area of illusions. With Turk.5460's build, I can practically 1 shot the illusions.

I haven't met a GS Mirage, so that's nice to know.

I know I haven't lost to a power mirage. They are much easier to deal with in the way I posted above than condi. And the chances that every power mirage I've faced over the past month has been a complete potato are very slim. Mes GS has nothing on DE Rifle from range when going against each other. The only thing Mes GS can reliably land from range is Mind Stab, because Mirror Blade and Phantasmal Berserker we can see coming from a mile away, and if the Mirage is auto attacking with GS while the DE is still firing their rifle, the Mirage already lost the fight.

I dont want to start a argument but how do you deal with the reflect?

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Thanks for the Mesmer perspective inputs, that helps a lot on understanding how you think. I have no problem tracking the Mesmer, my problem is the clones -- I want to shatter them before the Mesmer gets the chance to. Turk.5460 just showed me that using DA, I can extend Quickness 3x longer (BQoBK + 2x Stolen item) which I believe would be enough time to clear the area of illusions. With Turk.5460's build, I can practically 1 shot the illusions.

I haven't met a GS Mirage, so that's nice to know.

Only time i can reliably hit a 3 clone shatter in WvW is after using illusionary + sword ambush. Otherwise my clones are too slow to catch up on uf, if u stay moving.

Only time i can reliably hit a 3 clone shatter in WvW is after using illusionary + sword ambush. Otherwise my clones are too slow to catch up on uf, if u stay moving.

Jump/port to the enemy >stun > dodge > jaunt = 3 (with you) shatter.If you get a illusionary leap off bevor its a 4 clone shatter.Combo is basicaly instant, the clones do not really appear.Self deception is really good.

@Mayama.1854 said:

Only time i can reliably hit a 3 clone shatter in WvW is after using illusionary + sword ambush. Otherwise my clones are too slow to catch up on uf, if u stay moving.

• deceptive evasion

I know about the possibilites. Wouldn't run Duelling in a Mirage Build, even if it fits very well. It lacks the sustain of Chaos. You cant run both chaos and Dueling, cause u NEED illusions.

I like riddle a little bit more then self deception, since i play with sword main-hand and it generally lacks conditions. With riddle i can put out some Condis, even when i'm on sword.

I play sword cause it's 100000000 times better then Axe in Pvp and WvW, so yeah.

In pve for example i play axe + self deception + deceptive evasion + IH. Its really funny in Pve, u can put out 60 stacks confusion if u use everything u have.Axe 2 , jaunt , dodge -> 3 clone ambush -> Illusionary -> 3 clone ambush -> axe 3 -> F2 -> Jaunt + Shatter piano for additional Stacks.

In Pvp/wvw this can't happen, cause Axe 3 probably teleports u in some AoE which will kill u ...

Yeah I'm getting hit with 3 clones and 2 Axes then shatter.

I play sword cause it's 100000000 times better then Axe in Pvp and WvW, so yeah.

I play power so I dont need the condi's but yeah axe would be so great if the bugs and targeting would actually work/hit stuff.

@Mayama.1854 said:

Only time i can reliably hit a 3 clone shatter in WvW is after using illusionary + sword ambush. Otherwise my clones are too slow to catch up on uf, if u stay moving.

That sound about right. I do get stun before getting shatter, but I do see the clones -- most of the time. Although, I've seen Axes of Symmetry instead of Jaunt before the shatter. So I guess this is the best time where I spam Rifle #4.

Ditto guys, atm the moment power mirage is perhaps my most difficult fight on my d/p sb DE thief. I can dodge the initial mind wack burst, but after that it just becomes a game of attrition. Eventually, I end up getting caught and downed.

@Mayama.1854 said:

I

know

I haven't lost to a power mirage. They are much easier to deal with in the way I posted above than condi. And the chances that

every

power mirage I've faced over the past month has been a complete potato are very slim. Mes GS has

nothing

on DE Rifle from range when going against each other. The only thing Mes GS can reliably land from range is Mind Stab, because Mirror Blade and Phantasmal Berserker we can see coming from a mile away, and if the Mirage is auto attacking with GS while the DE is still firing their rifle, the Mirage already lost the fight.

By not attacking. Before HoT I exclusively roamed as a P/P Thief. I learned all the visuals and sound effects for each of my enemies reflect abilities pretty quick. Sure a few shots get reflected back before I can stow, but I can usually avoid them, and if not, its not enough damage to lose me the fight or even throw me off. Vincent has posted on the Thief forums for a long time, I'm sure he can handle reflects in the same manner.

By not attacking. Before HoT I exclusively roamed as a P/P Thief. I learned all the visuals and sound effects for each of my enemies reflect abilities pretty quick. Sure a few shots get reflected back before I can stow, but I can usually avoid them, and if not, its not enough damage to lose me the fight or even throw me off. Vincent has posted on the Thief forums for a long time, I'm sure he can handle reflects in the same manner.

Yeah but thats the thing if you dont attack he can do whatever he wants and power mirage has way more in combat mobility than a DE and tons of reflects if traited. Those statements feel so wrong because I often fight deadeyes without getting hit once after the initial burst. I mean look you said you can win the stealth game but did you consider that a mirage can just dodge out of stealth and has an almost endless number of dodges because of vigor, weapon swap sigil and the almost broken on mirage 40% more endurance regen orrian truffle and steak stew. I mean dodge gives reflect.

It feels like you only fought mirages that play like a vanilla shatter mesmer without abbusing the new dodge. Well time will tell especially because it seems like deadeye and mirage are next on cry for nerf list after spellbreaker and scourge.

@Mayama.1854 said:

By not attacking. Before HoT I exclusively roamed as a P/P Thief. I learned all the visuals and sound effects for each of my enemies reflect abilities pretty quick. Sure a few shots get reflected back before I can stow, but I can usually avoid them, and if not, its not enough damage to lose me the fight or even throw me off. Vincent has posted on the Thief forums for a long time, I'm sure he can handle reflects in the same manner.

I said I can with the stealth game? Please find that quote. The build I use for DE barely uses stealth.Other than that, Death's Retreat, ShadowStep, and Meld with Shadows are enough in combat mobility to avoid the Mirage's advances. And are these traited reflects a staple of the power Mesmer roaming build? Meaning is that whats picked as you walk out of spawn not knowing what enemies you will encounter? No, it's not. We're not talking about an organized /bow 1v1 duel where you have the leisure to cherry-pick traits based on your opponent's build. Vincent asked for input on fighting Mirages in WvW, this is the Thief forum, so it's safe to assume he is roaming, not standing around dueling. The build I posted has net me an extreme majority of wins against well over 50 Mirage encounters in the past month, often of which don't even get to hit me enough for me to notice if they are power or condi. Whether or not this build will work in someone else's hands is up to that player.

@Turk.5460 said:And the chances that every power mirage I've faced over the past month has been a complete potato are very slim.

Vincent: Alternatively, if you want dominance over any type of Mirage, you can play Power S/D Acro/Trick/DD. It's not Deadeye, but it's an easy win.