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Forced to grind levels, even on a paid account?

ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
edited July 22, 2020 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

So, I have not naturally levelled a character in over 7 years.

I started a play-through with my friend today, starting from scratch - both on Paid accounts & it appears we are forced to grind to the "recommended level" to continue the personal story?

Is this the way is it suppose to be? It wasn't like this at launch.

Guild Wars, all the way back to Prophecies has never been about grinding repetitive quests for levels.

Why has aNet done this? Do they not see this is driving potential new players away because this is not a generic MMORPG and personal story should not be gated by level.

Its absolute madness.

<1345

Comments

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    yeah, they did change this a long time ago when they revamped the starter experience

    it's been so long ago, but I think it was back before the change it was taking longer to level, so you had to spend a lot of time doing hearts and dynamic events
    the change they made it easier to level just from doing hearts, and sectioned out the personal stories into different level tiers(?)

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
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    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    Yes, maybe it would have been impossible to beat them - but the freedom to challenge yourself by playing personal story 20+ levels higher than your own level was part of the Guild Wars charm.

    Level restrictions on story mode is crazy & completely against everything I believed Guild Wars was about.

    I was actually shocked when I saw this mechanic, it is just not something I would believe existed in the Guild Wars universe.

    I was wondering why already 3 of my friends who have moved from WoW quit the game after 4 days because it was too "grindy". I never had that experience.

    My account is 7 years old now, so I have over 1000 tomes of knowledge, level 80 scrolls etc. I have not had to level naturally since my first character.

    Anet, what are you doing.

    P.S - grinding for Skyscale is different in my opinion, that should require a grind.

    It should not require a grind just to play the game. What the hell is this? Silkroad Online (Referencing a highly generic Korean MMORPG).

    I am literally is shock that Guild Wars 2 has resorted to this, it is certainly a sign of near death.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    P.S - I love End-game content, I am highly active in WvW & also sPvP.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    Guild Wars has always been about the story-telling & enjoyment of leveling.

    Not, grinding to get to the fun bits. Absolutely insane.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    So, I have not naturally levelled a character in over 7 years.

    I started a play-through with my friend today, starting from scratch - both on Paid accounts & it appears we are forced to grind to the "recommended level" to continue the personal story?

    @Mil.3562 said:
    You call that grinding? Wait till you try to get the mount Skyscale.

    i know it's very subjective and depends on the player's perspective but having played older mmorpgs before (the grindy ones like Tibia and Ragnarok Online), i found the grind in GW2 almost non-existent. maybe my tolerance for "grinding" in games is so high that it doesn't even bother me the slightest. -and- i still play those grindy mmorpgs still.

    that said, OP, it doesn't take long to get up to the level requirement for each part of the personal story if you plan a route for zone/map completion (which doesn't take long to 100% a zone, if you do things efficiently, while tagging and getting gold on events you happen to pass by)

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    It was done because a lot of new players where doing the personal story and then getting upset when they get trucked by enemies much higher level than them because the game never prevented them from going into their level 20 personal story quests at level 5...

    Non-sense.

    Players will be MUCH more upset by been restricted in a cage than failing because they are not high enough level. When the "RECOMMENDED LEVEL" was highlighted so clearly.

    Either way, a game like Guild Wars 2 should encourage a community of players who want to try running a level 50 Personal story mission at level 30.

    Compared to the people who cry because they fail when the RECOMMENDED LEVEL is (or was) so clearly outlined.

    A huge part of my enjoyment of the game was finishing personal story quests 10+ levels higher than my level. It made me feel like I was achieving something.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    So, I have not naturally levelled a character in over 7 years.

    I started a play-through with my friend today, starting from scratch - both on Paid accounts & it appears we are forced to grind to the "recommended level" to continue the personal story?

    @Mil.3562 said:
    You call that grinding? Wait till you try to get the mount Skyscale.

    i know it's very subjective and depends on the player's perspective but having played older mmorpgs before (the grindy ones like Tibia and Ragnarok Online), i found the grind in GW2 almost non-existent. maybe my tolerance for "grinding" in games is so high that it doesn't even bother me the slightest. -and- i still play those grindy mmorpgs still.

    that said, OP, it doesn't take long to get up to the level requirement for each part of the personal story if you plan a route for zone/map completion (which doesn't take long to 100% a zone, if you do things efficiently, while tagging and getting gold on events you happen to pass by)

    I understand that, but what I am trying to get across here is that, ever since GW1 was released - the game has NEVER BEEN ABOUT GRINDING.

    This is why we expect a higher quality player base compared to WoW.

    The freedom to do WHAT EVER, at WHAT EVER level - even if you failed.

    People were motivated to get better & work on their level because they WANTED TO. Not because they were FORCED TOO.

    Does this not make anyone else absolutely furious?

    This is not what Guild Wars is. It never has been.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    At launch, we used to have a saying.

    If you are grinding hearts, you are either going for the title - or have no life at all.

    No one is going to come to an 8 year old MMORPG to milk cows.

    Disgusted.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    So, I have not naturally levelled a character in over 7 years.

    I started a play-through with my friend today, starting from scratch - both on Paid accounts & it appears we are forced to grind to the "recommended level" to continue the personal story?

    @Mil.3562 said:
    You call that grinding? Wait till you try to get the mount Skyscale.

    i know it's very subjective and depends on the player's perspective but having played older mmorpgs before (the grindy ones like Tibia and Ragnarok Online), i found the grind in GW2 almost non-existent. maybe my tolerance for "grinding" in games is so high that it doesn't even bother me the slightest. -and- i still play those grindy mmorpgs still.

    that said, OP, it doesn't take long to get up to the level requirement for each part of the personal story if you plan a route for zone/map completion (which doesn't take long to 100% a zone, if you do things efficiently, while tagging and getting gold on events you happen to pass by)

    I understand that, but what I am trying to get across here is that, ever since GW1 was release - the game has NEVER BEEN ABOUT GRINDING.

    This is why we expect a high quality player base compared to WoW.

    The freedom to do WHAT EVER, at WHAT EVER level - even if you failed.

    i am with you on the freedom part of not being restricted in how you want to play.

    but unfortunately, modern MMORPGs (which gw2 is part of) has succumbed to the trend of spoon-feeding and hand-holding (and the multiple restrictions that bore as a result) to make it easier for first time gamers and new MMORPG players to get the hang of the game and hopefully stick with it.

    and there's nothing wrong with that too: if it brings more players in, it brings more money (potentially).

    i remember a few times where ff14 and ff11 where being talked about just like how we talk about gw1 and gw2 (not entirely the same but it's like how the older game had this why doesn't the newer game have it too? or this x and y system was better than the system we have now)

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    Hand holding is one thing - which was clearly covered by the Recommended Level notice when you started each instance.

    THE RECOMMENDED LEVEL FOR THIS MISSION IS XX.

    I don't understand how anyone old enough to use a computer would not understand that.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    It was done because a lot of new players where doing the personal story and then getting upset when they get trucked by enemies much higher level than them because the game never prevented them from going into their level 20 personal story quests at level 5...

    Non-sense.

    Players will be MUCH more upset by been restricted in a cage than failing because they are not high enough level. When the "RECOMMENDED LEVEL" was highlighted so clearly.

    Except, literally the case is the opposite of what you state.

    People complained a lot back on the old system. Which is why it was changed. Very few people complain in the new system.

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    People were motivated to get better & work on their level because they WANTED TO. Not because they were FORCED TOO.

    Does this not make anyone else absolutely furious?

    Not really.

    Since you're not FORCED to do anything in the game.

    You don't have to "Grind" in order to get levels. You don't HAVE to even play the personal story if you don't want to.

    The only thing that's existing now that wasn't back then, is a minimum level requirement on personal story quests. Which is not out of place, given the minimum level requirements to access skills (2, 4, 7, 10, 11, 15, 19, 31), minimum level requirements to access dungeons (30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 76, 78, 80), minimum level requirements to access equipment rarities (14, 30, 62) which have all existed since the start of the game.

    Cat: Meow.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Naxos.2503 said:
    To be fair :

    Experience is ridiculously easy to get, generally just going to the quest area and doing things on the way is enough to cover it

    Doing -any- content where your level is 5+level below monster levels = all your attacks graze (vastly reduced damage) all attacks done to you will hit hard enough to remove 15% of your hp up to one hit kill you if your level is 10 level below that of monster, and you dont have gear sufficiently potent to shave off -just- enough to survive a couple of hits. Again, the fact that your damage are reduced to mosquito bites, means you will take far too long to deal significant damage, and that -any- hit you incur will be too high to recover, further applied due to the fact that reduced levels = reduced skill availability.

    Generally this problem has only came up for people who rush the storyline and dont do the content that leads to said storyline. Exploration being the foremost. We're not talking map completion here either, just some basic exploration to get to the quest area, a couple of orange events and golden hearts that you found on the way. Take the time. None should engage in a MMo with the purpose to be done with it within the month. Those are games meant for continued enjoyment.

    This is just not true, remember that the game was designed NOT to have this restriction.

    Progression through the story-line meant that players would naturally explore real time world events, meta events & even hearts.

    If a player is going to ask a higher level friend to run him through the maps, then so be it - its obvious that he is missing a large part of the game, and this was also a very large part of GW1.

    Hearts were originally put there for End Game users to go back & grind for the title, not as a time-gate.

    Natural curiosity of "What is in that blurry part of the map" is enough, for any player to take a wonder over there to see.

    They should not be forced.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    It was done because a lot of new players where doing the personal story and then getting upset when they get trucked by enemies much higher level than them because the game never prevented them from going into their level 20 personal story quests at level 5...

    Non-sense.

    Players will be MUCH more upset by been restricted in a cage than failing because they are not high enough level. When the "RECOMMENDED LEVEL" was highlighted so clearly.

    Except, literally the case is the opposite of what you state.

    People complained a lot back on the old system. Which is why it was changed. Very few people complain in the new system.

    Very few players complain now, because there is substantially less NEW players entering the game.

    That is not a win.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    The only thing that's existing now that wasn't back then, is a minimum level requirement on personal story quests. Which is not out of place, given the minimum level requirements to access skills (2, 4, 7, 10, 11, 15, 19, 31), minimum level requirements to access dungeons (30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 76, 78, 80), minimum level requirements to access equipment rarities (14, 30, 62) which have all existed since the start of the game.

    You are completely ignoring the fact that once you reach the required levels to unlock (for example), the Elite, it is yours & you can move forward freely.

    Not expecting to hit another gate in 10 more levels time.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    You got data to back up that claim?

    Really?

    Please, I will leave you to go get the stats - for when each server had separate instances (before the mega server) - and Queensdale was full of 100+ people starting, exploring & excited.

    Now we get key farmers.

    There has been a HUGE uptick in new members due to the Lockdown - I know this because I spend 2 hours a day in Queensdale recruiting for my guild, but apart from that we are no were near the levels when the game was highly anticipated by 10+ year veterans of Guild Wars 1.

    8 years ago, just before launch.

    Please do not bring silly statistically claims to this discussion, I am talking about the soul of Guild Wars.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Naxos.2503 said:
    To be fair :

    Experience is ridiculously easy to get, generally just going to the quest area and doing things on the way is enough to cover it

    Just another note on this - lots of people are now leaving WoW because they are unhappy with the direction of the game.

    Do you really expect 10+ year WoW veterans to come to GW2 and milk cows, open lobster pots & clean up Graffiti just to progress the story line?

    I have never seen anything so patronising to new players moving from other MMO's.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    Yes, maybe it would have been impossible to beat them - but the freedom to challenge yourself by playing personal story 20+ levels higher than your own level was part of the Guild Wars charm.

    That was never possible. Enemies 10 levels above your character level become literally immune to your attacks. Not reduced damage, but immune.

    The New Player Experience, with all its faults, did change and push multiple story steps onto the level 10 steps, but those story steps were otherwise distributed between the next 10 levels. You were never able to level ahead of your character level.

    Well, when I say "20 levels above" - I am talking from 7 year old memory.

    Perhaps it was 5, perhaps it was 8.

    But the point still stands. We had the freedom to try.

    When a game tells you what you cannot do specifically, its no longer "Open World".

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    I can guarantee you I am not remembering incorrectly, because I never purposely farmed hearts.

    I never went out in a map specifically to "Level" to unlock the next story step.

    I only focused on levelling so it was possible for me to complete the mission that I already failed because I was not capable at my currently level to finish.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    Yes, maybe it would have been impossible to beat them - but the freedom to challenge yourself by playing personal story 20+ levels higher than your own level was part of the Guild Wars charm.

    That was never possible. Enemies 10 levels above your character level become literally immune to your attacks. Not reduced damage, but immune.

    The New Player Experience, with all its faults, did change and push multiple story steps onto the level 10 steps, but those story steps were otherwise distributed between the next 10 levels. You were never able to level ahead of your character level.

    Well, when I say "20 levels above" - I am talking from 7 year old memory.

    Perhaps it was 5, perhaps it was 8.

    But the point still stands. We had the freedom to try.

    You had the freedom to play story steps which now are gated behind the next 10 level step. You were never able to play the story beyond your characters level. You are remembering incorrectly.

    Are you saying, that no where in the history of Guild Wars 2 - you could play through the story without been stopped by a level-gate?

    Ruling out the fact of failing from trying.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    Yes, maybe it would have been impossible to beat them - but the freedom to challenge yourself by playing personal story 20+ levels higher than your own level was part of the Guild Wars charm.

    That was never possible. Enemies 10 levels above your character level become literally immune to your attacks. Not reduced damage, but immune.

    The New Player Experience, with all its faults, did change and push multiple story steps onto the level 10 steps, but those story steps were otherwise distributed between the next 10 levels. You were never able to level ahead of your character level.

    Well, when I say "20 levels above" - I am talking from 7 year old memory.

    Perhaps it was 5, perhaps it was 8.

    But the point still stands. We had the freedom to try.

    You had the freedom to play story steps which now are gated behind the next 10 level step. You were never able to play the story beyond your characters level. You are remembering incorrectly.

    Are you saying, that no where in the history of Guild Wars 2 - you could play through the story without been stopped by a level-gate?

    Ruling out the fact of failing from trying.

    I'm saying before the story steps were condensed to every 10 levels, they were distributed between those next 10 levels. You would gradually unlock each step while leveling instead of getting them all at once.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    I can guarantee you I am not remember incorrectly, because I never purposely farmed hearts.

    I never went out in a map specifically to "Level" to unlock the next story step.

    I only focused on levelling so it was possible for me to complete the mission that I already failed because I was not capable at my currently level to finish.

    Yes, you never farmed hearts for a game which was new to you. Where you probably explored, gathered, etc. not noticing how the exp accumulated.

    FYI: the experience needed for level 1-15 was even reduced. I believe with NPE.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    Yes, but the levels gained during completing the story - would give you the majority of the required experience.

    And if not, the Waypoints gained from running from A to B would do it.

    That is completely different from saying "Grind 10 more levels, and you can continue this amazing story you have just started".

  • Naxos.2503Naxos.2503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Naxos.2503 said:
    To be fair :

    Experience is ridiculously easy to get, generally just going to the quest area and doing things on the way is enough to cover it

    Just another note on this - lots of people are now leaving WoW because they are unhappy with the direction of the game.

    Do you really expect 10+ year WoW veterans to come to GW2 and milk cows, open lobster pots & clean up Graffiti just to progress the story line?

    I have never seen anything so patronising to new players moving from other MMO's.

    I dont see how this is related ?

    I've stated facts, and given my opinion. Facts are facts, and opinions are opinions. The facts that have been leveled are :

    -There used to be no restrictions, and now there is one.

    -It is easy to level up enough to complete the storyline without grinding, by simply exploring naturally toward the next quest objective. Rushing to do Only the storyline is as "natural" a progression as grinding is, so I dont see how being able to do all story without the level required is natural in any way. It's trading one extreme for another.

    Opinions that have been leveled :
    -To you, the game was better when it was not limited. I haven't seen players mentionning that it wasn't, but it remains an opinion nonetheless.

    -According to you there is a player drop due to this limitation, but based on your own words, you haven't actively played with that content for over 7 years. Over 7 years, many events occured which did cause player drops : Any living story incurs a drop because they are not expansions, for one. Not to mention there is a natural decrease of players over the years, for a MMo nearly a decade old (Notable compared to plenty of other MMos who dont apply said limitation). I dont think you can realistically infer that this limitation is causing new players not to be playing. Of all the new players I've followed, none of them did not make it to level 80 within a month. I very much doubt that has been an issue for them beside reaching level 10, which yes it is true is a negative experience to most : Being locked in a map, and be unable to visit lion's arch until level ... 25 ? 30 ? I forgot. It's not pleasant. But that doesn't significantly impact their playthroughs. My take is : The drops in players cannot be reasonably inputted to this restriction. There has been numerous -proven- drops of players due to other elements, and that element in particular has never came up before as one where players have quit over it. It doesn't mean it couldn't be softened or abolished. But opinions are opinions, and facts are facts.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    Never gathered or crafted in this game, ever.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    Yes, maybe it would have been impossible to beat them - but the freedom to challenge yourself by playing personal story 20+ levels higher than your own level was part of the Guild Wars charm.

    That was never possible. Enemies 10 levels above your character level become literally immune to your attacks. Not reduced damage, but immune.

    The New Player Experience, with all its faults, did change and push multiple story steps onto the level 10 steps, but those story steps were otherwise distributed between the next 10 levels. You were never able to level ahead of your character level.

    Well, when I say "20 levels above" - I am talking from 7 year old memory.

    Perhaps it was 5, perhaps it was 8.

    But the point still stands. We had the freedom to try.

    You had the freedom to play story steps which now are gated behind the next 10 level step. You were never able to play the story beyond your characters level. You are remembering incorrectly.

    Are you saying, that no where in the history of Guild Wars 2 - you could play through the story without been stopped by a level-gate?

    Ruling out the fact of failing from trying.

    I'm saying before the story steps were condensed to every 10 levels, they were distributed between those next 10 levels. You would gradually unlock each step while leveling instead of getting them all at once.

    And how is this not a better system overall?

    Spread across 10 levels instead of straight up gated? It gives a gradual release of content.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    Yes, but the levels gained during completing the story - would give you the majority of the required experience.

    And if not, the Waypoints gained from running from A to B would do it.

    That is completely different from saying "Grind 10 more levels, and you can continue this amazing story you have just started".

    Yes, and doing all the story steps now will yield around 3-4 levels too.

    Listen, most of us have years of experience and characters leveled. You are misremembering. The experience required was only reduced 1nce for 1-15. Otherwise the experience gain is pretty much similar as back during vanilla.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    Yes, maybe it would have been impossible to beat them - but the freedom to challenge yourself by playing personal story 20+ levels higher than your own level was part of the Guild Wars charm.

    That was never possible. Enemies 10 levels above your character level become literally immune to your attacks. Not reduced damage, but immune.

    The New Player Experience, with all its faults, did change and push multiple story steps onto the level 10 steps, but those story steps were otherwise distributed between the next 10 levels. You were never able to level ahead of your character level.

    Well, when I say "20 levels above" - I am talking from 7 year old memory.

    Perhaps it was 5, perhaps it was 8.

    But the point still stands. We had the freedom to try.

    You had the freedom to play story steps which now are gated behind the next 10 level step. You were never able to play the story beyond your characters level. You are remembering incorrectly.

    Are you saying, that no where in the history of Guild Wars 2 - you could play through the story without been stopped by a level-gate?

    Ruling out the fact of failing from trying.

    I'm saying before the story steps were condensed to every 10 levels, they were distributed between those next 10 levels. You would gradually unlock each step while leveling instead of getting them all at once.

    And how is this not a better system overall?

    Spread across 10 levels instead of straight up gated? It gives a gradual release of content.

    I'm not saying the new system is better. I actually dislike this change myself. I'm saying the story was always gated behind character level.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Naxos.2503 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Naxos.2503 said:
    To be fair :

    Experience is ridiculously easy to get, generally just going to the quest area and doing things on the way is enough to cover it

    Just another note on this - lots of people are now leaving WoW because they are unhappy with the direction of the game.

    Do you really expect 10+ year WoW veterans to come to GW2 and milk cows, open lobster pots & clean up Graffiti just to progress the story line?

    I have never seen anything so patronising to new players moving from other MMO's.

    I dont see how this is related ?

    I've stated facts, and given my opinion. Facts are facts, and opinions are opinions. The facts that have been leveled are :

    -There used to be no restrictions, and now there is one.

    -It is easy to level up enough to complete the storyline without grinding, by simply exploring naturally toward the next quest objective. Rushing to do Only the storyline is as "natural" a progression as grinding is, so I dont see how being able to do all story without the level required is natural in any way. It's trading one extreme for another.

    Opinions that have been leveled :
    -To you, the game was better when it was not limited. I haven't seen players mentionning that it wasn't, but it remains an opinion nonetheless.

    -According to you there is a player drop due to this limitation, but based on your own words, you haven't actively played with that content for over 7 years. Over 7 years, many events occured which did cause player drops : Any living story incurs a drop because they are not expansions, for one. Not to mention there is a natural decrease of players over the years, for a MMo nearly a decade old (Notable compared to plenty of other MMos who dont apply said limitation). I dont think you can realistically infer that this limitation is causing new players not to be playing. Of all the new players I've followed, none of them did not make it to level 80 within a month. I very much doubt that has been an issue for them beside reaching level 10, which yes it is true is a negative experience to most : Being locked in a map, and be unable to visit lion's arch until level ... 25 ? 30 ? I forgot. It's not pleasant. But that doesn't significantly impact their playthroughs. My take is : The drops in players cannot be reasonably inputted to this restriction. There has been numerous -proven- drops of players due to other elements, and that element in particular has never came up before has one where players have quit over it. It doesn't mean it couldn't be softened or abolished. But opinions are opinions, and facts are facts.

    Nice post, I'm going to work to respond to each point because I REALLY WANT TO BE PROVEN WRONG ON MY DISLIKE FOR ANET RIGHT NOW.

    1. I do not care "How easy it is to level up" - that will never rule out the fact that level restrictions to move on the story is not part of the Guild Wars universe - and it should never be.

    2. I have not yet met a person, who is joining the game out of my 400 active member guild that likes the level-gate between core story.

    3. The player drop - is just a fact. And I just do not want aNet to mould the game into somthing that becomes a generic MMO that no one is interest in playing. aNet's niche has always been story telling - not grinding heart quests.

    I never blamed the drop in players on the restriction. I blamed the acquisition drop of new experienced MMORPG players on this level-gate.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    Yes, but the levels gained during completing the story - would give you the majority of the required experience.

    And if not, the Waypoints gained from running from A to B would do it.

    That is completely different from saying "Grind 10 more levels, and you can continue this amazing story you have just started".

    Yes, and doing all the story steps now will yield around 3-4 levels too.

    Listen, most of us have years of experience and characters leveled. You are misremembering. The experience required was only reduced 1nce for 1-15. Otherwise the experience gain is pretty much similar as back during vanilla.

    During my original play through of Guild Wars 2. I was never told I could not play a story-line mission because my level was too low.

    If I was, I would be as furious then as I am now.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    Maybe there was a restriction, but with me - during a natural play through - no farming, crafting or gathering involved. I never hit it.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    Yes, maybe it would have been impossible to beat them - but the freedom to challenge yourself by playing personal story 20+ levels higher than your own level was part of the Guild Wars charm.

    That was never possible. Enemies 10 levels above your character level become literally immune to your attacks. Not reduced damage, but immune.

    The New Player Experience, with all its faults, did change and push multiple story steps onto the level 10 steps, but those story steps were otherwise distributed between the next 10 levels. You were never able to level ahead of your character level.

    Well, when I say "20 levels above" - I am talking from 7 year old memory.

    Perhaps it was 5, perhaps it was 8.

    But the point still stands. We had the freedom to try.

    You had the freedom to play story steps which now are gated behind the next 10 level step. You were never able to play the story beyond your characters level. You are remembering incorrectly.

    Are you saying, that no where in the history of Guild Wars 2 - you could play through the story without been stopped by a level-gate?

    Ruling out the fact of failing from trying.

    I'm saying before the story steps were condensed to every 10 levels, they were distributed between those next 10 levels. You would gradually unlock each step while leveling instead of getting them all at once.

    And how is this not a better system overall?

    Spread across 10 levels instead of straight up gated? It gives a gradual release of content.

    I'm not saying the new system is better. I actually dislike this change myself. I'm saying the story was always gated behind character level.

    But gated to a point where the player could almost never hit it unless he was paying someone to run him through it at warp speed?

    Okay, I understand a gate / restriction like that.

    But compared to what we have now? How is that comparable?

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    I can see where someone who wanted to do the story -- and only the story -- while leveling might not like having to gain levels in between story steps. However, what I note most about the complaint is the use of the pejorative "grind." This word used to mean something like, "Excruciatingly slow leveling by repetitive killing of the same mobs over and over and over until one's eyes bleed." Now, it has devolved to mean, "Oh no! I have to play for an hour or so to progress!"

    For me, at 27 year olds.

    A grind is having to open even 20 lobster pots, to randomly spawn a drake to kill it.

    I don't want to do that, nor would many people - even not of my age would want too.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    And the reason I play Guild Wars and no other MMO is because I have never been forced to open lobster pots, milk cows or clean Graffiti.

    The game to me, seems to have been ruined, the flow broken, the immersion destroyed. Just to hand-hold players who cannot read the recommended level for a mission?

    Can someone please tell me what I am missing here?

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    What we need to remember RIGHT NOW, that MMORPGS are not new, and in 2020 they are becoming incredible from new releases.

    No one wants to do repetitive tasks.

    Guild Wars to me, was always timeless because it never required that.

    Now it is on the road to the afterlife because of this.

    In an era where game developers can build a game that matches & surpasses Guild Wars 2 within 18 months of development. Should we not be LOOKING FORWARD.

    For exciting game play, rather than gating people behind a "grind".

    The definition of "grind" has changed. I have played many MMORPGS through my life, I have spent 12 hours killing the same mob to get a level, but that is not what gamers want these days.

    Gamers want what Guild Wars 1 offered.

  • Naxos.2503Naxos.2503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    I can see where someone who wanted to do the story -- and only the story -- while leveling might not like having to gain levels in between story steps. However, what I note most about the complaint is the use of the pejorative "grind." This word used to mean something like, "Excruciatingly slow leveling by repetitive killing of the same mobs over and over and over until one's eyes bleed." Now, it has devolved to mean, "Oh no! I have to play for an hour or so to progress!"

    For me, at 27 year olds.

    A grind is having to open even 20 lobster pots, to randomly spawn a drake to kill it.

    I don't want to do that, nor would many people - even not of my age would want too.

    I know you may be exagerating to make a point, but I'm sure you're aware that some actions in golden hearts reward more than others. The typical action you just listed is one that actually rewards the least, and thus take the longest time in order to get the golden heart done. Some golden hearts Do have particularly menial tasks like that which dont reward much at all. To the best of my recollection, there is no golden heart that -solely- consist of this, without an alternative large gain action that is equally available. There is also the side note that many golden hearts, especially in the beginner areas will overlap with Orange events, and participating in those events yield golden heart progress, as well as the reward from that event. It's actually one of the fastest way to level, and why it's generally very easy to level past 10.

    From what you're mentionning as examples, might I conclude that the character in question is stuck in Queensdale ? If so, I'm fairly certain most golden hearts overlap with 1 to 2 orange events each, baring perhaps 2 exceptions (Claypool, and Beetletun)

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    Yes, maybe it would have been impossible to beat them - but the freedom to challenge yourself by playing personal story 20+ levels higher than your own level was part of the Guild Wars charm.

    That was never possible. Enemies 10 levels above your character level become literally immune to your attacks. Not reduced damage, but immune.

    The New Player Experience, with all its faults, did change and push multiple story steps onto the level 10 steps, but those story steps were otherwise distributed between the next 10 levels. You were never able to level ahead of your character level.

    Well, when I say "20 levels above" - I am talking from 7 year old memory.

    Perhaps it was 5, perhaps it was 8.

    But the point still stands. We had the freedom to try.

    You had the freedom to play story steps which now are gated behind the next 10 level step. You were never able to play the story beyond your characters level. You are remembering incorrectly.

    Are you saying, that no where in the history of Guild Wars 2 - you could play through the story without been stopped by a level-gate?

    Ruling out the fact of failing from trying.

    I'm saying before the story steps were condensed to every 10 levels, they were distributed between those next 10 levels. You would gradually unlock each step while leveling instead of getting them all at once.

    And how is this not a better system overall?

    Spread across 10 levels instead of straight up gated? It gives a gradual release of content.

    I'm not saying the new system is better. I actually dislike this change myself. I'm saying the story was always gated behind character level.

    But gated to a point where the player could almost never hit it unless he was paying someone to run him through it at warp speed?

    Okay, I understand a gate / restriction like that.

    But compared to what we have now? How is that comparable?

    Honestly, I think you are just rushing the story a lot more now than back then.

    Yes, most people do not like the story steps being concentrated this way. It actually used to be a general guide for players where to go and which areas to visit. Which is likely also where you made a lot more experience while playing naturally instead of now rushing from one quest step to the next.

    As mentioned, the experience gains/requirements have remained the same: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Experience
    Given they are % based off of character level and have not changed. You need just as much experience now as back during vanilla.

    The leveling process is the shortest among pretty much all MMORPGs on the market. If this is really such a huge issue and you are not enjoying the game between story steps, the question you should be asking yourself is: should you be playing this game to begin with?

    You are likely right, I am wanting to get to the interesting parts of the game more so now, than when I first played.

    I can remember my joy of escorting the pack-bull through Queensdale.

    I wouldn't do that now.

    But neither will other MMORPG players who are moving from other games where they have spent 10+ years doing a very similar thing.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Naxos.2503 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    I can see where someone who wanted to do the story -- and only the story -- while leveling might not like having to gain levels in between story steps. However, what I note most about the complaint is the use of the pejorative "grind." This word used to mean something like, "Excruciatingly slow leveling by repetitive killing of the same mobs over and over and over until one's eyes bleed." Now, it has devolved to mean, "Oh no! I have to play for an hour or so to progress!"

    For me, at 27 year olds.

    A grind is having to open even 20 lobster pots, to randomly spawn a drake to kill it.

    I don't want to do that, nor would many people - even not of my age would want too.

    I know you may be exagerating to make a point, but I'm sure you're aware that some actions in golden hearts reward more than others. The typical action you just listed is one that actually rewards the least, and thus take the longest time in order to get the golden heart done. Some golden hearts Do have particularly menial tasks like that which dont reward much at all. To the best of my recollection, there is no golden heart that -solely- consist of this, without an alternative large gain action that is equally available. There is also the side note that many golden hearts, especially in the beginner areas will overlap with Orange events, and participating in those events yield golden heart progress, as well as the reward from that event. It's actually one of the fastest way to level, and why it's generally very easy to level past 10.

    From what you're mentionning as examples, might I conclude that the character in question is stuck in Queensdale ? If so, I'm fairly certain most golden hearts overlap with 1 to 2 orange events each, baring perhaps 2 exceptions (Claypool, and Beetletun)

    I am not stuck anywhere, I have over 1000 tomes of knowledge and at least 4+ max level scrolls in my bank.

    What is upsetting me, is getting my friends who are moving from other MMORPGS interested enough to get to the immersive part of the story.

    Having to work to get people into the game, just because they "Do not want to grind hearts" - for me, is literally heart-breaking.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.