Forced to grind levels, even on a paid account? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Forced to grind levels, even on a paid account?

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  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    But neither will other MMORPG players who are moving from other games where they have spent 10+ years doing a very similar thing.

    I doubt GW2 has any issue to compete with ANY other MMORPG as far as leveling time being required. This game is by far the fastest to get to max level and it's not even close. That's without even "speeding" or "rushing" to 80.

    But I have always stressed this to EVERY FRIEND, that has moved from another MMORPG - to Guild Wars 2.

    Guild Wars 2 is not about the effort of levelling, its about the enjoyment during levelling.

    But this mechanic has just proven everything I have ever said about Guild Wars 2 - wrong.

    Has aNet done this just to sell more level 80 boosts on the Black Lion? This is just something I thought of right now, but I cannot think of any other valid reason.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

    Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

    Honestly, I love Guild Wars 2 combat more than anyone else.

    But after killing 2/3 champions on a map, defending a way point & then stopping a few waves of Centaur.

    Anyone would be bored to repeat that?

    I actually had a friend say to me today - "Wow the voice acting is great and I love where the story is going" even during the Krytan politics chapter.

    Then he got gated, he was hugely disappointed.

    Guild Wars is about the STORY TELLING - not the grind.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    The more I think about this, the more I realise the reason this was done.

    aNet could not live up to the set expectation of end-game content.

    So they force everyone to spend as much time as possible grinding in the game. That is my only viable explanation. But there has been some good posts here & thank you all for helping me figure out how my favourite game development company could literally cut its nose off to spite its face.

  • Naxos.2503Naxos.2503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Naxos.2503 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    I can see where someone who wanted to do the story -- and only the story -- while leveling might not like having to gain levels in between story steps. However, what I note most about the complaint is the use of the pejorative "grind." This word used to mean something like, "Excruciatingly slow leveling by repetitive killing of the same mobs over and over and over until one's eyes bleed." Now, it has devolved to mean, "Oh no! I have to play for an hour or so to progress!"

    For me, at 27 year olds.

    A grind is having to open even 20 lobster pots, to randomly spawn a drake to kill it.

    I don't want to do that, nor would many people - even not of my age would want too.

    I know you may be exagerating to make a point, but I'm sure you're aware that some actions in golden hearts reward more than others. The typical action you just listed is one that actually rewards the least, and thus take the longest time in order to get the golden heart done. Some golden hearts Do have particularly menial tasks like that which dont reward much at all. To the best of my recollection, there is no golden heart that -solely- consist of this, without an alternative large gain action that is equally available. There is also the side note that many golden hearts, especially in the beginner areas will overlap with Orange events, and participating in those events yield golden heart progress, as well as the reward from that event. It's actually one of the fastest way to level, and why it's generally very easy to level past 10.

    From what you're mentionning as examples, might I conclude that the character in question is stuck in Queensdale ? If so, I'm fairly certain most golden hearts overlap with 1 to 2 orange events each, baring perhaps 2 exceptions (Claypool, and Beetletun)

    I am not stuck anywhere, I have over 1000 tomes of knowledge and at least 4+ max level scrolls in my bank.

    What is upsetting me, is getting my friends who are moving from other MMORPGS interested enough to get to the immersive part of the story.

    Having to work to get people into the game, just because they "Do not want to grind hearts" - for me, is literally heart-breaking.

    To clarify, I wasn't saying the character was you, just saying the character you refer to (your friend) is the one stuck. If the player in question is playing on a free to play account, I seem to recall the restrictions are indeed more of an issue. If they are not though, there is always the level boost, for someone who just want to get stuck in, but again, we're crossing from an extreme to another.

    And again, I understand the point you're making. You didn't feel those restrictions back then, and you dont understand why you're confronted by them now. I think everyone gets the idea. On the other hand, I think it's also fair to acknowledge that even if there is a restriction, it is rather abysmal. Not so much of a wall in itself. And again, that feeling dissipate very quickly after level 10. Everything is slow before that.

    An alternative : Chase hero points. Since character progression is not really leveled based, but skill based, I am fairly certain that would be the way to go with your friend. Seek hero points, unlock their skills and gain levels by completing those, ontop of deepening their arsenal. Most hero points have their own story as well, and go anywhere from fights, to puzzles, to lore. A good way to cumulate exploration as well as levels, while still retaining the idea of progressing toward the storyline and improving their character.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

    Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

    But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

    The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

    It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

    Not going backwards to increase user play-time by stretching out content.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

    Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

    But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

    The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

    It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

    Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

    For anyone else who actually wants to play a MMORPG, GW2 leveling is with no close second contender the fastest in the market.

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    Not going backwards to increase user play-time by stretching out content.

    As explained by me now for already 4 times. The required experience has not changed. Not sure how to better state this. IT IS THE SAME AS AT LAUNCH.

    Stop projecting your frustration that a friend did not enjoy the game onto imaginary elephants.

    During this entire discussion, we have proven the new level-gate is real.

    So your point is completely invalid.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

    Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

    But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

    The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

    It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

    Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

    Even though part of my frustration is nostalgia,

    Most of it is by been "boots on the ground" recruiting & working as a Mentor in Queensdale.

    I can see the NEW player base frustration. Can you say the same?

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Naxos.2503 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Naxos.2503 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    I can see where someone who wanted to do the story -- and only the story -- while leveling might not like having to gain levels in between story steps. However, what I note most about the complaint is the use of the pejorative "grind." This word used to mean something like, "Excruciatingly slow leveling by repetitive killing of the same mobs over and over and over until one's eyes bleed." Now, it has devolved to mean, "Oh no! I have to play for an hour or so to progress!"

    For me, at 27 year olds.

    A grind is having to open even 20 lobster pots, to randomly spawn a drake to kill it.

    I don't want to do that, nor would many people - even not of my age would want too.

    I know you may be exagerating to make a point, but I'm sure you're aware that some actions in golden hearts reward more than others. The typical action you just listed is one that actually rewards the least, and thus take the longest time in order to get the golden heart done. Some golden hearts Do have particularly menial tasks like that which dont reward much at all. To the best of my recollection, there is no golden heart that -solely- consist of this, without an alternative large gain action that is equally available. There is also the side note that many golden hearts, especially in the beginner areas will overlap with Orange events, and participating in those events yield golden heart progress, as well as the reward from that event. It's actually one of the fastest way to level, and why it's generally very easy to level past 10.

    From what you're mentionning as examples, might I conclude that the character in question is stuck in Queensdale ? If so, I'm fairly certain most golden hearts overlap with 1 to 2 orange events each, baring perhaps 2 exceptions (Claypool, and Beetletun)

    I am not stuck anywhere, I have over 1000 tomes of knowledge and at least 4+ max level scrolls in my bank.

    What is upsetting me, is getting my friends who are moving from other MMORPGS interested enough to get to the immersive part of the story.

    Having to work to get people into the game, just because they "Do not want to grind hearts" - for me, is literally heart-breaking.

    To clarify, I wasn't saying the character was you, just saying the character you refer to (your friend) is the one stuck. If the player in question is playing on a free to play account, I seem to recall the restrictions are indeed more of an issue. If they are not though, there is always the level boost, for someone who just want to get stuck in, but again, we're crossing from an extreme to another.

    And again, I understand the point you're making. You didn't feel those restrictions back then, and you dont understand why you're confronted by them now. I think everyone gets the idea. On the other hand, I think it's also fair to acknowledge that even if there is a restriction, it is rather abysmal. Not so much of a wall in itself. And again, that feeling dissipate very quickly after level 10. Everything is slow before that.

    An alternative : Chase hero points. Since character progression is not really leveled based, but skill based, I am fairly certain that would be the way to go with your friend. Seek hero points, unlock their skills and gain levels by completing those, ontop of deepening their arsenal. Most hero points have their own story as well, and go anywhere from fights, to puzzles, to lore. A good way to cumulate exploration as well as levels, while still retaining the idea of progressing toward the storyline and improving their character.

    Just 2 points here:
    1. Both are Paid Accounts
    2. I have told them NOT TO USE THE LEVEL BOOST ON THEIR FIRST PLAY THROUGH.

    Because it ruins the experience of Guild Wars.

    But clearly, I was wrong and we should all just buy level 80 boosts before playing the core story? I guess I was wrong on recommending people to play the game naturally for maximum enjoyment because this is NO LONGER THE CASE.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Head Kracker.4790 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

    Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

    Honestly, I love Guild Wars 2 combat more than anyone else.

    But after killing 2/3 champions on a map, defending a way point & then stopping a few waves of Centaur.

    Anyone would be bored to repeat that?

    I actually had a friend say to me today - "Wow the voice acting is great and I love where the story is going" even during the Krytan politics chapter.

    Then he got gated, he was hugely disappointed.

    Guild Wars is about the STORY TELLING - not the grind.

    So your not mapping, your not visiting other zones, your not introducing them into world bosses, your not doing any of the jumping puzzles, your not setting any goals or trying to do any of the achievements, nor are you exploring all the nooks and crannies of the zone(s) and consequently gaining all the xp that would be needed to keep progressing in the story, your not doing anything BUT story. Wow your missing out on ALOT of the games charm even without doing hearts arent you.

    The rose colored glasses you have on are keeping you from enjoying anything but your nostalgia friend. So they changed the personal story so that newer player have a chance to not get curb stomped by overpowered enemies. This is not the first time any MMO has done such gating to keep the players enjoying the game and maybe doing other things that they might enjoy as well as or more than just grinding out the story. Progression is a thing in all MMO's including story.

    Having to say to a friend, lets run around Way Points to gain you experiences so you do not need to milk the cows. Is not great I am afraid, Way points used to be discovered naturally while travelling from one area to another trying to get to the next chapter of a story.

    Regarding jumping puzzles, yes - I do these. I have even built a jumping puzzle in my guild hall built out of Super clouds to train new members to do jumping puzzles so they can continue to "Grind".

    I still find it difficult to believe anyone in the Guild Wars community can justify this gating.

    I would prefer to be curbed stomped by enemies so I can say to new players, OKAY LETS GO AND GET STRONGER. Than having a straight up restriction on trying, and then we do get there at the "Recommended Level" we barely break a sweat.

    Still crazy to me.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

    Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

    But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

    The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

    It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

    Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

    Even though part of my frustration is nostalgia,

    Most of it is by been "boots on the ground" recruiting & working as a Mentor in Queensdale.

    I can see the NEW player base frustration. Can you say the same?

    Boots on the ground while not knowing the very basics about this games leveling system? Then coming to the forums complaining?

    No, I have not spent time lately in Queensdale, though I do help in capitols if questions are posed.

    Maybe you should spend some time to acclimate yourself with the game first, before going around giving advice.

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

    Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

    But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

    The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

    It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

    Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

    For anyone else who actually wants to play a MMORPG, GW2 leveling is with no close second contender the fastest in the market.

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    Not going backwards to increase user play-time by stretching out content.

    As explained by me now for already 4 times. The required experience has not changed. Not sure how to better state this. IT IS THE SAME AS AT LAUNCH.

    Stop projecting your frustration that a friend did not enjoy the game onto imaginary elephants.

    During this entire discussion, we have proven the new level-gate is real.

    So your point is completely invalid.

    The level gate simply changed. It was there before.

    The experience gained has not changed. The experience required has not changed.

    You are making an elephant out of thin air. Then coming up with weird theories which make 0 sense.

    EDIT:
    While at it, maybe give a look to the new player achievements added earlier this year which are intended to guide players a bit more while new.

    Nice attempt at a direct insult on my in-game experience because you literally have nothing else to come back at me with to justify this change to the game which is causing damage to the community.

    Maybe I am not the most experienced player in terms of achievement points, mastery points or legendary weapons, but I have run a guild that helps people learn the game for over 15 years since Guild Wars 1.

    I know what people expect from Guild Wars. A gate on progressing the personal story is not it.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

    Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

    But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

    The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

    It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

    Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

    Even though part of my frustration is nostalgia,

    Most of it is by been "boots on the ground" recruiting & working as a Mentor in Queensdale.

    I can see the NEW player base frustration. Can you say the same?

    Boots on the ground while not knowing the very basics about this games leveling system? Then coming to the forums complaining?

    No, I have not spent time lately in Queensdale, though I do help in capitols if questions are posed.

    Maybe you should spend some time to acclimate yourself with the game first, before going around giving advice.

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

    Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

    But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

    The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

    It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

    Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

    For anyone else who actually wants to play a MMORPG, GW2 leveling is with no close second contender the fastest in the market.

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    Not going backwards to increase user play-time by stretching out content.

    As explained by me now for already 4 times. The required experience has not changed. Not sure how to better state this. IT IS THE SAME AS AT LAUNCH.

    Stop projecting your frustration that a friend did not enjoy the game onto imaginary elephants.

    During this entire discussion, we have proven the new level-gate is real.

    So your point is completely invalid.

    The level gate simply changed. It was there before.

    The experience gained has not changed. The experience required has not changed.

    You are making an elephant out of thin air. Then coming up with weird theories which make 0 sense.

    EDIT:
    While at it, maybe give a look to the new player achievements added earlier this year which are intended to guide players a bit more while new.

    I have come up with a couple of theories tonight, I have never claimed any of them to be fact. These include aNet trying to make money from selling 80 boosts to Bypass the grinding.

    I am still trying to figure this out, not tell you what it is or what it isn't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

    Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

    But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

    The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

    It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

    Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

    Even though part of my frustration is nostalgia,

    Most of it is by been "boots on the ground" recruiting & working as a Mentor in Queensdale.

    I can see the NEW player base frustration. Can you say the same?

    Boots on the ground while not knowing the very basics about this games leveling system? Then coming to the forums complaining?

    No, I have not spent time lately in Queensdale, though I do help in capitols if questions are posed.

    Maybe you should spend some time to acclimate yourself with the game first, before going around giving advice.

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

    Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

    But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

    The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

    It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

    Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

    For anyone else who actually wants to play a MMORPG, GW2 leveling is with no close second contender the fastest in the market.

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    Not going backwards to increase user play-time by stretching out content.

    As explained by me now for already 4 times. The required experience has not changed. Not sure how to better state this. IT IS THE SAME AS AT LAUNCH.

    Stop projecting your frustration that a friend did not enjoy the game onto imaginary elephants.

    During this entire discussion, we have proven the new level-gate is real.

    So your point is completely invalid.

    The level gate simply changed. It was there before.

    The experience gained has not changed. The experience required has not changed.

    You are making an elephant out of thin air. Then coming up with weird theories which make 0 sense.

    EDIT:
    While at it, maybe give a look to the new player achievements added earlier this year which are intended to guide players a bit more while new.

    Nice attempt at a direct insult on my in-game experience because you literally have nothing else to come back at me with to justify this change to the game which is causing damage to the community.

    Maybe I am not the most experienced player in terms of achievement points, mastery points or legendary weapons, but I have run a guild that helps people learn the game for over 15 years since Guild Wars 1.

    I know what people expect from Guild Wars. A gate on progressing the personal story is not it.

    I'm not justifying anything. I already stated that most players I know, myself included, dislike the change. I'm saying you are blowing this way out of proportion, probably because a friend of yours disliked the game.

    That is on you, or him. If he did not like the game, maybe he simply just did not like the game. If something like having to spend 20-30 minutes leveling to continue the personal story was an issue, the game was not for him. It's that simple.

  • Head Kracker.4790Head Kracker.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    I have a question then. Do you have a sky scale or the wayfarers henge? Or any other multi recipe non legendary weapon set (I.e. Dragonsblood or Heroic dragonsblood)? Or have done any of the dirizzlewood coast Stormcaller weapons?

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Naxos.2503 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Naxos.2503 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Naxos.2503 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    I can see where someone who wanted to do the story -- and only the story -- while leveling might not like having to gain levels in between story steps. However, what I note most about the complaint is the use of the pejorative "grind." This word used to mean something like, "Excruciatingly slow leveling by repetitive killing of the same mobs over and over and over until one's eyes bleed." Now, it has devolved to mean, "Oh no! I have to play for an hour or so to progress!"

    For me, at 27 year olds.

    A grind is having to open even 20 lobster pots, to randomly spawn a drake to kill it.

    I don't want to do that, nor would many people - even not of my age would want too.

    I know you may be exagerating to make a point, but I'm sure you're aware that some actions in golden hearts reward more than others. The typical action you just listed is one that actually rewards the least, and thus take the longest time in order to get the golden heart done. Some golden hearts Do have particularly menial tasks like that which dont reward much at all. To the best of my recollection, there is no golden heart that -solely- consist of this, without an alternative large gain action that is equally available. There is also the side note that many golden hearts, especially in the beginner areas will overlap with Orange events, and participating in those events yield golden heart progress, as well as the reward from that event. It's actually one of the fastest way to level, and why it's generally very easy to level past 10.

    From what you're mentionning as examples, might I conclude that the character in question is stuck in Queensdale ? If so, I'm fairly certain most golden hearts overlap with 1 to 2 orange events each, baring perhaps 2 exceptions (Claypool, and Beetletun)

    I am not stuck anywhere, I have over 1000 tomes of knowledge and at least 4+ max level scrolls in my bank.

    What is upsetting me, is getting my friends who are moving from other MMORPGS interested enough to get to the immersive part of the story.

    Having to work to get people into the game, just because they "Do not want to grind hearts" - for me, is literally heart-breaking.

    To clarify, I wasn't saying the character was you, just saying the character you refer to (your friend) is the one stuck. If the player in question is playing on a free to play account, I seem to recall the restrictions are indeed more of an issue. If they are not though, there is always the level boost, for someone who just want to get stuck in, but again, we're crossing from an extreme to another.

    And again, I understand the point you're making. You didn't feel those restrictions back then, and you dont understand why you're confronted by them now. I think everyone gets the idea. On the other hand, I think it's also fair to acknowledge that even if there is a restriction, it is rather abysmal. Not so much of a wall in itself. And again, that feeling dissipate very quickly after level 10. Everything is slow before that.

    An alternative : Chase hero points. Since character progression is not really leveled based, but skill based, I am fairly certain that would be the way to go with your friend. Seek hero points, unlock their skills and gain levels by completing those, ontop of deepening their arsenal. Most hero points have their own story as well, and go anywhere from fights, to puzzles, to lore. A good way to cumulate exploration as well as levels, while still retaining the idea of progressing toward the storyline and improving their character.

    Just 2 points here:
    1. Both are Paid Accounts
    2. I have told them NOT TO USE THE LEVEL BOOST ON THEIR FIRST PLAY THROUGH.

    Because it ruins the experience of Guild Wars.

    But clearly, I was wrong and we should all just buy level 80 boosts before playing the core story? I guess I was wrong on recommending people to play the game naturally for maximum enjoyment because this is NO LONGER THE CASE.

    Alright. I clearly mentionned it would be trading an extreme for another. You have willfully ignored that, not to mention disregarding the rest of my advice. At that point, I refuse to continue discussing. I give advice in good faith, and get answers in bad faith that twist what I state. I concur with Cyninja. The game is fine, you're probably not particularly good at showcasing it to new players.

    I do hope that your analysis of the "The game is fine" is correct, and based on experience and not just your personal hopes of you playing within a select group of end-game users.

    I work with people joining the game, with their new experiences of the game.

    I want Guild Wars to last forever.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Head Kracker.4790 said:
    I have a question then. Do you have a sky scale or the wayfarers henge? Or any other multi recipe non legendary weapon set (I.e. Dragonsblood or Heroic dragonsblood)? Or have done any of the dirizzlewood coast Stormcaller weapons?

    I have played a lot of Drizzlewood coast, which was great content & I also loved how aNet released the content even with the restriction of not been able to do the voice acting.

    I think that was great, and the way they handled it with the NPC interaction was fantastic.

    I am not insulting aNet's development ability here.

    I never would because the Elite Spec system is second to non - I am simply saying, the gate they have added to the core game is pushing new players away.

  • Head Kracker.4790Head Kracker.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    That isnt the answer to my question, did you ever try and do any of the things in the above post is what I asked?

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Naxos.2503 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Naxos.2503 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Naxos.2503 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    I can see where someone who wanted to do the story -- and only the story -- while leveling might not like having to gain levels in between story steps. However, what I note most about the complaint is the use of the pejorative "grind." This word used to mean something like, "Excruciatingly slow leveling by repetitive killing of the same mobs over and over and over until one's eyes bleed." Now, it has devolved to mean, "Oh no! I have to play for an hour or so to progress!"

    For me, at 27 year olds.

    A grind is having to open even 20 lobster pots, to randomly spawn a drake to kill it.

    I don't want to do that, nor would many people - even not of my age would want too.

    I know you may be exagerating to make a point, but I'm sure you're aware that some actions in golden hearts reward more than others. The typical action you just listed is one that actually rewards the least, and thus take the longest time in order to get the golden heart done. Some golden hearts Do have particularly menial tasks like that which dont reward much at all. To the best of my recollection, there is no golden heart that -solely- consist of this, without an alternative large gain action that is equally available. There is also the side note that many golden hearts, especially in the beginner areas will overlap with Orange events, and participating in those events yield golden heart progress, as well as the reward from that event. It's actually one of the fastest way to level, and why it's generally very easy to level past 10.

    From what you're mentionning as examples, might I conclude that the character in question is stuck in Queensdale ? If so, I'm fairly certain most golden hearts overlap with 1 to 2 orange events each, baring perhaps 2 exceptions (Claypool, and Beetletun)

    I am not stuck anywhere, I have over 1000 tomes of knowledge and at least 4+ max level scrolls in my bank.

    What is upsetting me, is getting my friends who are moving from other MMORPGS interested enough to get to the immersive part of the story.

    Having to work to get people into the game, just because they "Do not want to grind hearts" - for me, is literally heart-breaking.

    To clarify, I wasn't saying the character was you, just saying the character you refer to (your friend) is the one stuck. If the player in question is playing on a free to play account, I seem to recall the restrictions are indeed more of an issue. If they are not though, there is always the level boost, for someone who just want to get stuck in, but again, we're crossing from an extreme to another.

    And again, I understand the point you're making. You didn't feel those restrictions back then, and you dont understand why you're confronted by them now. I think everyone gets the idea. On the other hand, I think it's also fair to acknowledge that even if there is a restriction, it is rather abysmal. Not so much of a wall in itself. And again, that feeling dissipate very quickly after level 10. Everything is slow before that.

    An alternative : Chase hero points. Since character progression is not really leveled based, but skill based, I am fairly certain that would be the way to go with your friend. Seek hero points, unlock their skills and gain levels by completing those, ontop of deepening their arsenal. Most hero points have their own story as well, and go anywhere from fights, to puzzles, to lore. A good way to cumulate exploration as well as levels, while still retaining the idea of progressing toward the storyline and improving their character.

    Just 2 points here:
    1. Both are Paid Accounts
    2. I have told them NOT TO USE THE LEVEL BOOST ON THEIR FIRST PLAY THROUGH.

    Because it ruins the experience of Guild Wars.

    But clearly, I was wrong and we should all just buy level 80 boosts before playing the core story? I guess I was wrong on recommending people to play the game naturally for maximum enjoyment because this is NO LONGER THE CASE.

    Alright. I clearly mentionned it would be trading an extreme for another. You have willfully ignored that, not to mention disregarding the rest of my advice. At that point, I refuse to continue discussing. I give advice in good faith, and get answers in bad faith that twist what I state. I concur with Cyninja. The game is fine, you're probably not particularly good at showcasing it to new players.

    I will admit, I only half read the rest of your post since the first 2 initial points in the post were incorrect, and I believed you were not up to date with the issue.

    Thank you for getting involved & trying to stop my ever growing dislike for the direction that Guild Wars 2 is taking.

    I really just want Guild Wars 2 to be future-proof. From my experience with new players in the game, I know it is not.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Head Kracker.4790 said:
    That isnt the answer to my question, did you ever try and do any of the things in the above post is what I asked?

    Yes, but you are missing my point entirely.

    I am not saying Guild Wars 2 LACKS content.

    I am saying, that Guild Wars as an MMORPG should not force people into any type of content just to progress in the primary thing that Guild Wars is about.

    Their story-telling.

    People should not have to grind a heart, jump up a cliff or run around unlocking way points to access what the game excels in.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    Guild Wars has never been about that, it has never worked that way.

    And as soon as it did - it signed its own death warrant.

  • Head Kracker.4790Head Kracker.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm not missing your point I'm trying to determine if you have actually done anything in game that has had a time gate which has effectively a very lengthy grind behind it which in the matter of gaining a few levels for story seems fairly silly and getting outraged over a very minor point of content even sillier. The fact that you havent answered the question make me wonder what you truly think grind ** IS**.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @AgentMoore.9453 said:
    I've been around for many different iterations of the game, including before and after the starting zones were revamped and again when they added the 'new player experience' collections and achievements. Throughout this, I've leveled a number of characters to 80 and never felt limited in the ways you describe.

    You're not meant to rush to level 80 or immediately dive into the expansions or even bulletrun to the end of the personal story. For your first playthrough, the idea is to simply experience core Tyria, touching on the personal story as you grow strong enough to do so (you even get in-game mail notifying you of your progress as it pertains to dungeon access). The road block you're talking about (you must be level x to do content y) seems perfectly natural to me. I've played countless games where your character will see a blocked off area with the dialogue 'I'm not strong enough to face the monsters in there; I'll come back later!'

    By the time you make a second character, it's expected you'll know the ropes and be able to either use level tomes (these start to accumulate very quickly) or the skills you learned while leveling your last character to complete the leveling process more quickly. With the addition of gliding and mounts from the expansions, the ability to breeze through leveling and map completion has been made even faster.

    Maybe there's a sense of urgency when starting the game now because there are two expansions, five LS seasons, and therefore a lot of ground to cover. Removing level requirements from content won't do a single thing to help with that.

    But this is my main issue with this entire thing.

    "I have played many games that do ..."

    Guild Wars, has never been about that sort of gating.

    You can explore the world, if you are able.

    I understand your point in the sense of "Urgency" and trying to catch up with people now the game is 8 years old.

    But I think more than likely, the issue is that people that are NOW joining the game have already experienced this grind before on another MMORPG - and do not want to experience it again.

    If Guild Wars 2 wants to increase their player base, they do not want to be gating the best part of their content behind Milking Cows (Which literally just has the character doing a dance Emote - Really?)

    If it was gated behind Quality content, that was entertaining to all, then YES. I understand - but its not. Its repetitive, and drawn out. Not just for veteran Guild Wars players, but any sort of Veteran MMORPG players.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    Funny how it has stayed alive for the last 6+ years.

    Yeah, its looking good.

    The lockdown did great for Guild Wars 2.

    Before that, it was on its deathbed.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Head Kracker.4790 said:
    I'm not missing your point I'm trying to determine if you have actually done anything in game that has had a time gate which has effectively a very lengthy grind behind it which in the matter of gaining a few levels for story seems fairly silly and getting outraged over a very minor point of content even sillier. The fact that you havent answered the question make me wonder what you truly think grind ** IS**.

    I am rank 1250 in WvW.

    That is about it.

    I do not grind, nor do most people want too. They want to play content they enjoy.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Batel.9206 said:
    Different strokes. A few years ago I was looking into this game, seeing if I'd want to play it. I found some older videos of the personal storyline on youtube, and when watching them, I noticed that the player was constantly having to level up to get to the next story step. It looked so incredibly boring, tedious, and grindy that it very nearly drove away any interest I had in the game, even though I liked the story. I had the same problem with SWTOR, which used the same system of leveling. Bleh. It sapped all the fun I had and, at times, felt like a slogging drudge to go level up just so I can experience the next tiny bit of story.

    When I started playing, I found that it had changed: each story "chapter" was in a chunk of content, every ten levels. So much more manageable to deal with! It felt natural for story progression and implies the passage of time between chapters. I never felt forced to "grind" - I was using the in-story time off I got from the last chapter to rest and relax and go do whatever I wanted in the grand wide world of Tyria.

    Your experience is different than mine. My experience is different than your friend's. I don't think there's any one right or wrong way to do it, but I'm personally quite happy with the way the personal story is set up now.

    Was Guild Wars 2 your first MMO?

    Edit, because I have just seen you have played SWTOR before - I have never played that game so I cannot compare.

    I am basing what I saying right now, on my experience of the influx of new players aNet are getting and how they are accept the game as is.

    Its not positive overall.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    My experience was amazing positive, which is why I here after 15 years of Guild Wars game play.

    But I wasn't restricted to the time-gate to play the story.

    The amount of times I have had to give people the answer "If you don't want to grind this PvE content, you need Tomes of knowledge" answer is just sickening.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    OP keeps repeating that Guild Wars 2 was never about having a requisite for the Personal Story; yet, that requisite has been part of the Personal Story for three-quarters of Guild Wars 2's lifespan.
    Also, how is it 'grinding' when you can visit a variety of maps and do all manner of different content to level up?
    If you don't like Queensdale, and what it has to offer, go visit Metrica, or Wayfarer, or Caledon, or Ashford. Every new character has access to all 5 starter maps.

    I did state in my original post, that it has been 7 years since I naturally levelled a character.

    I am just stating the feedback I am getting from new players RIGHT NOW, and my own personal hatred for the changes.

    Just imagine a new player, just finished an amazingly scripted story line - with great voice acting, great characters.

    Okay, now 10 more levels of grinding in a field washing Graffiti off a wall (and running around Way Points, yes I understand there are different types of content out there in GW2)

    The fact stands, this SHOULD NOT BE GATED.

    The player should find the restrictions by themselves by trying - such as a previous post stated, when you get to a mission that is too high for your character - your damage will literally become null.

    I am not against that in the slightest.

    But you remove a players freedom to try anything in a "Open World" game, it is no longer "Open World" and you are pushed down a route.

    This is how new players feel RIGHT NOW.

    I am telling you this from 3 months of spending hours a day in Queensdale & Kessex Hills.

    This is how people are finding the GAME, so if you are arguing because you are sat there with 300 mastery points & 7 leggy weapons, you have no concept of the basis of my claim.

    You can deny all you want - but for an MMORPG to continue growing it needs to accommodate new players. Guild Wars 2, is not currently accommodating its new influx of players and is loosing the vast majority of potential revenue it could be generating because of this gate.

  • Head Kracker.4790Head Kracker.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    Guild Wars, has never been about that sort of gating.
    I am rank 1250 in WvW.

    That is about it.

    I do not grind, nor do most people want too. They want to play content they enjoy.

    So all the thousands of people who have done either Gryphon and or Skyscale hacked them into their account then? And do you actually have ascended full sets of armor in WVW then? I mean that all takes time for a benefit that people do all quite often right? That can technically be called a grind especially if your farming for material.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Head Kracker.4790 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    Guild Wars, has never been about that sort of gating.
    I am rank 1250 in WvW.

    That is about it.

    I do not grind, nor do most people want too. They want to play content they enjoy.

    So all the thousands of people who have done either Gryphon and or Skyscale hacked them into their account then? And do you actually have ascended full sets of armor in WVW then? I mean that all takes time for a benefit that people do all quite often right? That can technically be called a grind especially if your farming for material.

    I have 3 full ascended sets of armor, and at least 14 ascended weapons.

    I have never been forced to grind for them. I gained them through playing game modes I enjoyed.

    I have never crafted or gathered.

    But apart from that I do not understand your point.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    But just to re-iterate, I have no legendary weapons - OBVIOUSLY they are going to require a huge grind or there would be no end-game.

    But end-game is different from Story mode progression.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Head Kracker.4790 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    Guild Wars, has never been about that sort of gating.
    I am rank 1250 in WvW.

    That is about it.

    I do not grind, nor do most people want too. They want to play content they enjoy.

    So all the thousands of people who have done either Gryphon and or Skyscale hacked them into their account then? And do you actually have ascended full sets of armor in WVW then? I mean that all takes time for a benefit that people do all quite often right? That can technically be called a grind especially if your farming for material.

    Also, mounts are not CORE like we are discussing - I have also stated I am not against some time-gating related to a mount that allows you to fly.

    That is a benefit that is allowed to exclusive players who have worked for it.

    Getting to the "Battle of claw island" should not take as much of a grind as grinding the Skyscale.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @AgentMoore.9453 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    I am telling you this from 3 months of spending hours a day in Queensdale & Kessex Hills.

    Oh god, no wonder you're so passionate. Don't do that. Nobody deserves three months of Queensdale.

    Queensdale is a map you can complete in under a single hour and that's by just trotting around doing basic renown hearts and exploring. Everything you do contributes toward your leveling, even walking around and finding new nooks, mining ore, chopping down trees, and punching the odd Moa bird in the beak. This kind of 'rewarded no matter how you choose to play' approach is absolutely what early GW2 is about. ..but even then, that's just one map. There are SO many more open to you, and the UI even points them out with messages like 'new adventures await you in x map!'

    As a new player, I delighted in exploration. For the sake of your brainmeats, branch out to different maps! Explore, talk to NPCs with dialogue options, turn on your ambient noise and listen to the chatter in towns, challenge your friends to see who can climb to the top of a building the fastest, goof off! You'll level without noticing and have a far greater appreciation for the game than if you narrowly focus on leveling.

    Even if all level gating was removed, it would still be my advice to meander around the game and let yourself appreciate the world. Doing this makes the story more meaningful and it'll help you invest emotions into the characters you meet along the way. If experiencing story is your primary goal in GW2, this kind of world-investment becomes even more important.

    Your enthusiasm is great to see, and I love hearing that you are finding the world of Tyria immersive, just as we all did back at release as veteran Guild Wars 1 players.

    Sadly, you are the minority (in my experience) - of new players that are joining the game.

    I have experienced everything you have stated & I promise you, I have experienced it as passionately as you have or I wouldn't be sticking by aNet for 15 years & bringing this HUGE issue up to keep the game alive 8 years after its launch.

    I hope you continue to enjoy the game & I hope to see you on the battle field in Eternal Battle Grounds sometime in the future.

    Just do not get on the wrong side of my axe.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @AgentMoore.9453 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:
    I am telling you this from 3 months of spending hours a day in Queensdale & Kessex Hills.

    Oh god, no wonder you're so passionate. Don't do that. Nobody deserves three months of Queensdale.

    Queensdale is a map you can complete in under a single hour and that's by just trotting around doing basic renown hearts and exploring. Everything you do contributes toward your leveling, even walking around and finding new nooks, mining ore, chopping down trees, and punching the odd Moa bird in the beak. This kind of 'rewarded no matter how you choose to play' approach is absolutely what early GW2 is about. ..but even then, that's just one map. There are SO many more open to you, and the UI even points them out with messages like 'new adventures await you in x map!'

    As a new player, I delighted in exploration. For the sake of your brainmeats, branch out to different maps! Explore, talk to NPCs with dialogue options, turn on your ambient noise and listen to the chatter in towns, challenge your friends to see who can climb to the top of a building the fastest, goof off! You'll level without noticing and have a far greater appreciation for the game than if you narrowly focus on leveling.

    Even if all level gating was removed, it would still be my advice to meander around the game and let yourself appreciate the world. Doing this makes the story more meaningful and it'll help you invest emotions into the characters you meet along the way. If experiencing story is your primary goal in GW2, this kind of world-investment becomes even more important.

    Also, please remember - I am not a new player.

    I am a veteran player focused on helping new players join the game & support aNet.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    So, why are you staying in Queensdale? Why not take the L2 players to Metrica, or any other starter map?
    It seems very odd that every new player created a Human, to begin with; but, even if they did, why stay in Queensdale?
    Also, there is a lot more to Guild Wars 2 than just the Personal Story. Some even believe it's one of the weaker parts of GW2.

    Because the largest portion of new players create Human characters, this is fact. Statistical fact.

    I am simply helping people along their journey on where they are at.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Head Kracker.4790 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    @Head Kracker.4790 said:

    @ConorT.5396 said:

    Guild Wars, has never been about that sort of gating.
    I am rank 1250 in WvW.

    That is about it.

    I do not grind, nor do most people want too. They want to play content they enjoy.

    So all the thousands of people who have done either Gryphon and or Skyscale hacked them into their account then? And do you actually have ascended full sets of armor in WVW then? I mean that all takes time for a benefit that people do all quite often right? That can technically be called a grind especially if your farming for material.

    Also, mounts are not CORE like we are discussing - I have also stated I am not against some time-gating related to a mount that allows you to fly.

    That is a benefit that is allowed to exclusive players who have worked for it.

    Getting to the "Battle of claw island" should not take as much of a grind as grinding the Skyscale.

    You know what I'm not gonna be nice. This game has grind. It has had it since day one in the fact that dungeon tokens had caps and diminishing returns. What your seemingly trying to ignore in nostalgia is that its always been there. That and the fact seems to me that your not really playing this game in a pve environment since you seem to be ignoring quite literally the other 4 starter zones and that hearts can have a decent amount of XP attached. The fact that you seems to be willfully ignoring that seems more a failing on you and that restricting your friend and yourself to Queensdale for 3 weeks is all on YOU rather than a fault of the game itself. If you had actually explored or played in different zones the game probably would have had more to offer you at a lower level. That continues onto the zones outside of the starter areas which with level and story progression actually pretty much keep you on par if you actually contribute to the exploration and actual playing of the game outside of WVW. Your experiences in wvw seem extensive but that does not translate into the main PVE world.

    Stopped reading after the first 12 words.

    Guild Wars, should not be a grind to play the story. Simple - and that is my argument. That is not what Guild Wars has ever been about.

    It has lost its niche,

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    So, why are you staying in Queensdale? Why not take the L2 players to Metrica, or any other starter map?
    It seems very odd that every new player created a Human, to begin with; but, even if they did, why stay in Queensdale?
    Also, there is a lot more to Guild Wars 2 than just the Personal Story. Some even believe it's one of the weaker parts of GW2.

    And my feedback is from new players ranging from level 10-20 which is perfect to sample the un-enjoyment of the gating of the story line.

  • ConorT.5396ConorT.5396 Member ✭✭

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    Well, since it has not changed in 6+ years, and there has been very few, if any' laments about it, I don't see it changing from a post created by someone that hasn't played in 7 years and isn't that familiar with the game.

    Still, best of luck.

    Maybe it worked 6 years ago, when people were enjoying the generic MMORPG - but what I am focused on is making GW2 last another 8 years.

    Not what worked yesterday.

    And I am sorry that the thing that is going to make the game continue to grow is reverting back to a previous layout of allowing players freedom, but that is the case.

    Loose your niche, loose your potential customers.