Bring back the holy trinity. - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Bring back the holy trinity.

2>

Comments

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wasn't that tried in HoT?

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Algreg.3629 said:

    @lil muffin.1250 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    And where is the strategy in the holy trinity?

    You have a tank that just sits there, a healer keeping the tank alive and the dps has free cast, doing rotations.

    WoW, much gameplay , such strategy.

    the trinity has a lotof strategy for several reasons.
    tanking is about positioning and protecting.
    you have to make sure the boss doesnt cleave all your dps and healers
    this has massive potential in gw2.
    healers have to keep people alive.. this requires strategy.
    and dps has to dodge mechanics and do their rotation well.

    this seem simple but it also is tons easier to design complicated content to.
    world bosses at the moment are people passively applying boons.
    running around and rezzing people and we are all just trying to dps the boss down fast enough.

    with a trinity you have tanks holding down bosses and key enemies.
    healers keeping those tanks alive.
    dps trying to stay alive while dps those key big enemies so we can go back and focus on the big boss.

    tank uses taunt ability or goes in for damage aggro
    healer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tank
    tank has established aggro
    dps moves in to a safe spot
    (loop)
    dps unleashes
    healer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tank
    (/loop)

    that is the whole "strategy" in all strict trinity games, yeah, impressive.

    Yeah, you're right. Everyone just playing versions of "DPS/Support" and stacking in a pile is a much more interesting way of handling things...

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Algreg.3629 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Algreg.3629 said:

    @lil muffin.1250 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    And where is the strategy in the holy trinity?

    You have a tank that just sits there, a healer keeping the tank alive and the dps has free cast, doing rotations.

    WoW, much gameplay , such strategy.

    the trinity has a lotof strategy for several reasons.
    tanking is about positioning and protecting.
    you have to make sure the boss doesnt cleave all your dps and healers
    this has massive potential in gw2.
    healers have to keep people alive.. this requires strategy.
    and dps has to dodge mechanics and do their rotation well.

    this seem simple but it also is tons easier to design complicated content to.
    world bosses at the moment are people passively applying boons.
    running around and rezzing people and we are all just trying to dps the boss down fast enough.

    with a trinity you have tanks holding down bosses and key enemies.
    healers keeping those tanks alive.
    dps trying to stay alive while dps those key big enemies so we can go back and focus on the big boss.

    tank uses taunt ability or goes in for damage aggro
    healer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tank
    tank has established aggro
    dps moves in to a safe spot
    (loop)
    dps unleashes
    healer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tank
    (/loop)

    that is the whole "strategy" in all strict trinity games, yeah, impressive.

    Yeah, you're right. Everyone just playing versions of "DPS/Support" and stacking in a pile is a much more interesting way of handling things...

    it barely is, but still, calling the trinity "strategy" is hogwash. Personally, I had hoped GW2 would be more about situational combat and reacting to a dynamic environment, no rotations, certainly not that ridiculous stacking and even more restrictive builds, .

    If it's hogwash, then why couldn't they figure out a way to design compelling encounters without introducing pseudo tanks and healers? And why would you want to play a game that does that rather than a game that builds from the ground up with that in mind?

    Flexibility is not a bad thing, but that isn't the issue with GW2 raiding. The issue is that they took away these dynamics, but didn't replace them with anything. Worse, they couldn't figure out a way to fully do without them, so they re-introduced them as a pale shadow of what they are in the games they're poorly copying after they said they wouldn't.

  • Algreg.3629Algreg.3629 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Algreg.3629 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Algreg.3629 said:

    @lil muffin.1250 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    And where is the strategy in the holy trinity?

    You have a tank that just sits there, a healer keeping the tank alive and the dps has free cast, doing rotations.

    WoW, much gameplay , such strategy.

    the trinity has a lotof strategy for several reasons.
    tanking is about positioning and protecting.
    you have to make sure the boss doesnt cleave all your dps and healers
    this has massive potential in gw2.
    healers have to keep people alive.. this requires strategy.
    and dps has to dodge mechanics and do their rotation well.

    this seem simple but it also is tons easier to design complicated content to.
    world bosses at the moment are people passively applying boons.
    running around and rezzing people and we are all just trying to dps the boss down fast enough.

    with a trinity you have tanks holding down bosses and key enemies.
    healers keeping those tanks alive.
    dps trying to stay alive while dps those key big enemies so we can go back and focus on the big boss.

    tank uses taunt ability or goes in for damage aggro
    healer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tank
    tank has established aggro
    dps moves in to a safe spot
    (loop)
    dps unleashes
    healer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tank
    (/loop)

    that is the whole "strategy" in all strict trinity games, yeah, impressive.

    Yeah, you're right. Everyone just playing versions of "DPS/Support" and stacking in a pile is a much more interesting way of handling things...

    it barely is, but still, calling the trinity "strategy" is hogwash. Personally, I had hoped GW2 would be more about situational combat and reacting to a dynamic environment, no rotations, certainly not that ridiculous stacking and even more restrictive builds, .

    If it's hogwash, then why couldn't they figure out a way to design compelling encounters without introducing pseudo tanks and healers? And why would you want to play a game that does that rather than a game that builds from the ground up with that in mind?

    Flexibility is not a bad thing, but that isn't the issue with GW2 raiding. The issue is that they took away these dynamics, but didn't replace them with anything. Worse, they couldn't figure out a way to fully do without them, so they re-introduced them as a pale shadow of what they are in the games they're poorly copying after they said they wouldn't.

    failure to come up with a much better alternative does not elevate an original system, but you seem to be completely enthralled by the trinity. That being said, I doubt we are that much divided about GW2 approach as it appears.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Algreg.3629 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Algreg.3629 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Algreg.3629 said:

    @lil muffin.1250 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    And where is the strategy in the holy trinity?

    You have a tank that just sits there, a healer keeping the tank alive and the dps has free cast, doing rotations.

    WoW, much gameplay , such strategy.

    the trinity has a lotof strategy for several reasons.
    tanking is about positioning and protecting.
    you have to make sure the boss doesnt cleave all your dps and healers
    this has massive potential in gw2.
    healers have to keep people alive.. this requires strategy.
    and dps has to dodge mechanics and do their rotation well.

    this seem simple but it also is tons easier to design complicated content to.
    world bosses at the moment are people passively applying boons.
    running around and rezzing people and we are all just trying to dps the boss down fast enough.

    with a trinity you have tanks holding down bosses and key enemies.
    healers keeping those tanks alive.
    dps trying to stay alive while dps those key big enemies so we can go back and focus on the big boss.

    tank uses taunt ability or goes in for damage aggro
    healer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tank
    tank has established aggro
    dps moves in to a safe spot
    (loop)
    dps unleashes
    healer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tank
    (/loop)

    that is the whole "strategy" in all strict trinity games, yeah, impressive.

    Yeah, you're right. Everyone just playing versions of "DPS/Support" and stacking in a pile is a much more interesting way of handling things...

    it barely is, but still, calling the trinity "strategy" is hogwash. Personally, I had hoped GW2 would be more about situational combat and reacting to a dynamic environment, no rotations, certainly not that ridiculous stacking and even more restrictive builds, .

    If it's hogwash, then why couldn't they figure out a way to design compelling encounters without introducing pseudo tanks and healers? And why would you want to play a game that does that rather than a game that builds from the ground up with that in mind?

    Flexibility is not a bad thing, but that isn't the issue with GW2 raiding. The issue is that they took away these dynamics, but didn't replace them with anything. Worse, they couldn't figure out a way to fully do without them, so they re-introduced them as a pale shadow of what they are in the games they're poorly copying after they said they wouldn't.

    failure to come up with a much better alternative does not elevate an original system, but you seem to be completely enthralled by the trinity. That being said, I doubt we are that much divided about GW2 approach as it appears.

    Not exactly. I play GW2, but I don't raid. When I played trinity games, I did raid. I guess you can make sense of that.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The alternative to trinity is established in games like eso or gw2 both of which have solid pve and pvp. Mmos need trinity - meat shield/jump out of red circles like a hole in the head, the world had moved on.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • @lil muffin.1250 said:
    I know what you are thinking. NO.
    I get it.
    However I think Guild wars 2 is a fantastic game but the way they have done combat has sort of elimanted "strategy"
    We currenly have a soft trinity.
    Some characters can tank.. however usually those characters dont seem like they should be the ones tanking.
    Some build are better for buffing.

    Some are great for healing.

    However because everyone can heal themselves, because everyone can rez, because every specialization can dps things are a bit "all over the place"
    1. this makes the game incrediblyl hard to balance.
    2. I personally believe that most people are still smashing buttons because you rarely have to strategize.
    3. While we do work togethr oftern in gw2 its almost too passive.
    4. everything is too fast and it feels a bit like a mess.

    What would the holy trinty do for guild wars 2.
    SLOW IT DOWN.
    I love action combat its great.
    But when i wanted to create a support character with my weaver i'm mostly healing by doing dps.
    or some random skill is giving someone might. or i'm giving a aura because of a passive.
    -- SO if we wanted to create a tempest spec that honored the holy trinity how would it be different.
    1. We would instead have a skill called " Radiant Aura" it would have a cool down and it would switch its effects based on what attunement you were in. This changes aura quite a bit from being passively applied to being purposely appllied. You would have to decide when would be the best time to place that specific attuned aura to a team mate.

    Lets compare that to what we have now.
    How do we apply auras... well..
    there are like a thousand ways lol. you can get critally hit. you can use one of the shouts. you can do some dps with a flashy tornado skin.
    applying auras is currently passive.

    This changes a lot of other things as well.
    Notice that in guild wars 2 there is a visual hot mess clutter of graphic effects especially when fighting big bosses. well thats becausse most people are using their skills to dps the boss in order to passivley help there team.
    Now with these more specific choices you have to make. you are popping less auras because you have to decide who needs it when.

    Now we have to get rid of that heal skill that we all have.
    oof people are going to hate me for this. but as a warrior you should be tough you should be able to take hits but you shouldnt be able to provide a full heal to yourself.
    The heal button kind of destroys class identity and class neccessity.
    you should still be able to solo things but it should be much more easy to solo things with your buddy who enjoys support.

    oh and pvp.. gurl the level of strategy it would bring to not just ranked.. but wvw.. gurrrrrrl.

    gw2 is a fun game.. but it could be amazing they just need to revamp combat so people arent all doing the same thing.

    There are pro and con with any system. I can see your points as if they focus more on making specific class tailored to certain roles balancing the game would probably be a lot easier. The idea that the dev had for this game was each class would be able to full fill the role of each of the tritity witouth you having to roll a specific class or if your doing group content you wouldnt have to wait for a specific class to do it. Thy kinda shot themselfs in the foot with this idea as they introduce elite spe and the druid. It not saying that there idea isnt there but each ele spec is there to fullfill a role to specalize in only issue is you only have two ele sepc full filling thoes roles. they should of started out with each class being in the catagory of a role and using the ele spec to change up that only issue is we only get a new elete spe when the expansion comes out.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    The alternative to trinity is established in games like eso or gw2 both of which have solid pve and pvp.

    Err... Wut?

    Firstly, ESO uses a trinity for its PvE. You have a Tank, Healer and DPS...

    Secondly, ESO having solid PvE? lul

    Thirdly, GW2 having solid PvP? lul

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Mmos need trinity - meat shield/jump out of red circles like a hole in the head, the world had moved on.

    The fact that GW2 has persevered over 7+ years without the holy trinity would seem to disagree with this point.

    Might want to re-read that particular quote. As it's saying that MMO's don't need trinity.

    (It does however talk about meat shields and moving out of bad circles... Which is literally GW2's Raiding...)

    Cat: Meow.

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @lil muffin.1250 said:
    well I hope they learn their lesson if they ever make it to gw3..

    Personally, I see no lesson to be learned here. I think it is pioneering to have an MMO without trinity. Seemingly every other one has it. I say, let GW2 and GW3 be unique! Not everyone wants or loves trinity based MMOs. No need to slam Arenanet for trying to stand out.

    @lil muffin.1250 said:
    you laugh but if you think about it... lots of the content they build like bounties.
    they are litterally spam and dodging one shot mechanics.
    with the holy trinity people would have to group up and they can create more substance content that isnt boom you are dead cuz you couldnt see the aoe because everyones skills are being popped off all the time.

    Even with trinity, you wouldn't see the boss because of the AOE spam. That's an entirely different problem and not one that, IMO, needs a complete rework of the game's intent to solve.

    Their uniqueness is also what shot the company in the foot in the long-run. GW1 followed a loose (emphasis on very loose) trinity and did fine. Only reason why it's like the way it is now is because, well, it's older than gw2.

    Gw2 doesn't exactly have an excuse and went downhill slightly because of this disorganization, spam mentality, and just press 1 meme they're going through. Perhaps it would have helped improve the overall skill level of the playerbase, perhaps not, but breaking the mold didn't exactly inspire mmos to take up their 'uniqueness'. They're their own little anomaly people have very aggressive opinions about, be it negative or positive.

  • Rauderi.8706Rauderi.8706 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You want HT? Go raid.

    Many alts! Handle it!

    "A condescending answer might as well not be an answer at all."
    -Eloc Freidon.5692

  • Rauderi.8706Rauderi.8706 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    The assumption of the OP is wrong ... introducing an artificial form of team structure like holy trinity will not introduce strategy to gaming. If anything, it will lock you in more.

    It also locks in the kinds of content that can be designed. In Trinity, you have to have something for the tank to do (active mitigation of damage, controlling adds, moving the boss), for the healer to do (heal, and more heal, maybe dps if lucky, chase the dps that defy healing), and the dps just get to do what they already do, except they might be responsible for added mechanics (touch this switch, dodge the floor). And if stuff goes south, the tank dies or the healer dies, and the whole thing wipes because one of the vital linchpins is gone. It's a very Feels Bad way to lose an encounter.
    And in overworld content, ugh. Ever play a healer in one of those other MMOs? It's so. effing. slow. All you're good for is Cure Wounds, so good luck finishing events under the time constraints...

    Many alts! Handle it!

    "A condescending answer might as well not be an answer at all."
    -Eloc Freidon.5692

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2020

    @Astyrah.4015 said:
    if they enforced holy trinity in GW2, i might finally roll a healer class

    but i want targetted, direct heals & buffs if it ever happened.

    Trinity exist in raids. Before raids and hot there was only 1 role dps

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2020

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Astyrah.4015 said:
    if they enforced holy trinity in GW2, i might finally roll a healer class

    but i want targetted, direct heals & buffs if it ever happened.

    Trinity exist in raids. Before raids and hot there was only 1 role dps

    yes i am aware of that, what i meant was, if they made a tank-healer-dps strict class/profession (like in WoW/FF14) like the OP wants.

    also doesnt mean im demanding it too or with the OP of the thread.

    it's just a "If they ever do this, then <>"

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2020

    @Loosmaster.8263 said:
    Can't bring back what you never had!!!

    GW1

    I can't agree more with the OP that we do have a "soft" trinity and that Mesmers tanking makes zero sense.

  • Rukia.4802Rukia.4802 Member ✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    The alternative to trinity is established in games like eso or gw2 both of which have solid pve and pvp.

    Err... Wut?

    Firstly, ESO uses a trinity for its PvE. You have a Tank, Healer and DPS...

    Secondly, ESO having solid PvE? lul

    Thirdly, GW2 having solid PvP? lul

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Mmos need trinity - meat shield/jump out of red circles like a hole in the head, the world had moved on.

    The fact that GW2 has persevered over 7+ years without the holy trinity would seem to disagree with this point.

    Might want to re-read that particular quote. As it's saying that MMO's don't need trinity.

    (It does however talk about meat shields and moving out of bad circles... Which is literally GW2's Raiding...)

    Whats wrong with ESO pve? It is the most difficult rewarding pve instance content I've played. Most vet content str8 up 1shots you if you don't block, dodge , interrupt properly and its not nearly as easy to revive in ESO because mechanics rarely let you breath. Vma is harder than liadri was in GW2 and has some of the best sets in the game. Its done everything better, and is much more competitive.. look at the achievements & rewards for nodeath vet clears and speedclears . Not to mention theres a normal mode for casuals on everything. I'd say is very well done lol. And I still mostly pvp in that game..

    2/3 accounts forum banned
    Fix hide party/squad nameplate
    Add particle effect slider/ability to turn friendly player effects off

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rukia.4802 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    The alternative to trinity is established in games like eso or gw2 both of which have solid pve and pvp.

    Err... Wut?

    Firstly, ESO uses a trinity for its PvE. You have a Tank, Healer and DPS...

    Secondly, ESO having solid PvE? lul

    Thirdly, GW2 having solid PvP? lul

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Mmos need trinity - meat shield/jump out of red circles like a hole in the head, the world had moved on.

    The fact that GW2 has persevered over 7+ years without the holy trinity would seem to disagree with this point.

    Might want to re-read that particular quote. As it's saying that MMO's don't need trinity.

    (It does however talk about meat shields and moving out of bad circles... Which is literally GW2's Raiding...)

    Whats wrong with ESO pve?

    Tanking is one dimensional, where you are spamming your Taunt skill once per 15 seconds because that's how aggro works in that game (Oh and you can forget about the high level of skill customization that the game prides itself on, because you're stuck with Shield because it is one of 2 lines that actually provides a Taunt but then has better blocks that is required for hard content)

    Healing is one dimensional, where there's a lot of AoE heal spamming because that's all the game is set up for.

    The game is pretty good if you're a DPS since you have a lot of flexibility with how you can build.

    But in terms of being a Tank/Healer, it's as lame as many other MMO's. With the only upside being the blocking system is pretty cool and infinitely better than the typical "RNG chance to block incoming attacks passively" found in MMO's.

    P.s. One shots are not condusive to good gameplay, since they literally invalidate healers if they land.

    Cat: Meow.

  • Rukia.4802Rukia.4802 Member ✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    The alternative to trinity is established in games like eso or gw2 both of which have solid pve and pvp.

    Err... Wut?

    Firstly, ESO uses a trinity for its PvE. You have a Tank, Healer and DPS...

    Secondly, ESO having solid PvE? lul

    Thirdly, GW2 having solid PvP? lul

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Mmos need trinity - meat shield/jump out of red circles like a hole in the head, the world had moved on.

    The fact that GW2 has persevered over 7+ years without the holy trinity would seem to disagree with this point.

    Might want to re-read that particular quote. As it's saying that MMO's don't need trinity.

    (It does however talk about meat shields and moving out of bad circles... Which is literally GW2's Raiding...)

    Whats wrong with ESO pve?

    Tanking is one dimensional, where you are spamming your Taunt skill once per 15 seconds because that's how aggro works in that game (Oh and you can forget about the high level of skill customization that the game prides itself on, because you're stuck with Shield because it is one of 2 lines that actually provides a Taunt but then has better blocks that is required for hard content)

    Healing is one dimensional, where there's a lot of AoE heal spamming because that's all the game is set up for.

    The game is pretty good if you're a DPS since you have a lot of flexibility with how you can build.

    But in terms of being a Tank/Healer, it's as lame as many other MMO's. With the only upside being the blocking system is pretty cool and infinitely better than the typical "RNG chance to block incoming attacks passively" found in MMO's.

    P.s. One shots are not condusive to good gameplay, since they literally invalidate healers if they land.

    Nice just strawman everything and pretend mechanics don't exist.. I have a sneaking suspicion you haven't played it much. You could literally pull the same strawman for GW2 and it would sound just as dumb. "ball up, ez lol"

    2/3 accounts forum banned
    Fix hide party/squad nameplate
    Add particle effect slider/ability to turn friendly player effects off

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2020

    @lil muffin.1250 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Trinity is kind of there in the game.. the problem is that there are very few areas of the game where it's valid to build for.

    yes there is definitely a soft trinity.. but its distilled so far down that it makes builidng meaningful content more difficult.

    lets imagine tequatal with the trinity.
    first you would have to have the tanks hold his aggro for his large damage spells.
    then the healers would have to keep those tanks alive.
    dps does dps.
    and maybe some characters could be build to support.

    And then after 2 minutes of the fight you realize that not enough players wanted to play healer today, and you wipe. Because, you know, you have absolutely no control over what classes would join an open map instance.

    Thanks, but no.

    By the way, you might not have noticed, but generally most of the players in most mmos aren't really interested in higher levels of difficulty. In GW2 that ratio is even more skewed in the direction of casuals.

    So, you are proposing that the game introduces changes that would make most of its current players less interested in it. Somehow, i'm not entirely sure that making most of your playerbase less interested in playing would be a sensible direction to take.

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    I'll repost my response to this thread on reddit:

    If you think taking out the holy trinity eliminated strategy, then you just haven't learned the strategy. There's plenty of that in composition of teams, providing all the boons, combo fields, and various protections.

    You're just ignoring them.

    Also, this.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Korval.3751Korval.3751 Member ✭✭✭

    The "holy trinity" never existed in GW2 to begin with.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rukia.4802 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @Rukia.4802 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    The alternative to trinity is established in games like eso or gw2 both of which have solid pve and pvp.

    Err... Wut?

    Firstly, ESO uses a trinity for its PvE. You have a Tank, Healer and DPS...

    Secondly, ESO having solid PvE? lul

    Thirdly, GW2 having solid PvP? lul

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Mmos need trinity - meat shield/jump out of red circles like a hole in the head, the world had moved on.

    The fact that GW2 has persevered over 7+ years without the holy trinity would seem to disagree with this point.

    Might want to re-read that particular quote. As it's saying that MMO's don't need trinity.

    (It does however talk about meat shields and moving out of bad circles... Which is literally GW2's Raiding...)

    Whats wrong with ESO pve?

    Tanking is one dimensional, where you are spamming your Taunt skill once per 15 seconds because that's how aggro works in that game (Oh and you can forget about the high level of skill customization that the game prides itself on, because you're stuck with Shield because it is one of 2 lines that actually provides a Taunt but then has better blocks that is required for hard content)

    Healing is one dimensional, where there's a lot of AoE heal spamming because that's all the game is set up for.

    The game is pretty good if you're a DPS since you have a lot of flexibility with how you can build.

    But in terms of being a Tank/Healer, it's as lame as many other MMO's. With the only upside being the blocking system is pretty cool and infinitely better than the typical "RNG chance to block incoming attacks passively" found in MMO's.

    P.s. One shots are not condusive to good gameplay, since they literally invalidate healers if they land.

    Nice just strawman everything and pretend mechanics don't exist..

    Mechanics exist in all MMO's.

    Tanking/Healing is still one dimensional.

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    You could literally pull the same strawman for GW2 and it would sound just as dumb. "ball up, ez lol"

    I literally could.

    GW2's end-game PvE is also terrible.

    But at least it's OW PvE is entertaining because everyone can play as a DPS with a plethora of builds that are usable, just like in ESO's OW PvE.

    In fact, I could say the same about most MMO's end game PvE, because most MMO's PvE is terrible especially for Tanks and Healers. I should know, I main Tanks and off-spec to Healer in MMO's.

    MMO's are still using outdated Trinity mechanics from 3 decades ago. No-one has yet actually bothered to evolve Tanking/Healing mechanics to be unique and actually meaningful. Instead it's all just Tanks play Simon Says with the boss, pressing [Insert mitigation skill] when boss does [Telegraphed big attack] while Healers just spam AoE heals when anyone takes damage (If they're not one-shot because that's how "Difficult" content is designed. You do the thing or you get one shot.)

    It's why I still consider one of the best MMO's to date to be Anarchy Online since, outside of literally hardest raids in the game, the vast majority of content was very flexible in terms of the "Trinity" with lots of classes able to work as a tank or prevent the need for a tank and a lot of classes able to provide healing to sustain. This included their static dungeons as well as open world PvE and instanced PvE. This lead to a lot more fun because you were less concerned with specificly "Tank/Healer/DPS" trinities and more interested in what the classes that you had with you could do.

    Of course, the game is very dated now and Funcom is a terrible company but it's still a solid game in terms of having build variety and having ways to deal with group content. It also avoids the annoying thing where developers artificically kitten Tank/Healer DPS for reasons, so that even Enforcers/Soldiers/Medics can deal decent damage if built right (With Soldiers being highest DPS in the game if you manage to build them for it, though it's crazy expensive to do so)

    Cat: Meow.

  • Rukia.4802Rukia.4802 Member ✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619

    You oversimplify everything you talk about, you went from ESO pve sucks to every pve sucks lmao. You think tanks just stand still and taunt on cooldown, and healers just stand there and heal. Either you don't play these roles or are terrible at them, specifically in ESO. Playing those roles is so much more than that it would be massive tl;dr but you're just a troll baiting so its not worth going into detail.

    No one has evolved out of trinity because it works great and nothing so far has been better outside of extremely casual content. Feel free to come up with a better solution and make an MMO with it ,or you could just reference old dead games with this so called superior design lol.

    Tell me why raids were designed around trinity in GW2, I could tell you why, but I'd rather read your hilarious answer.

    2/3 accounts forum banned
    Fix hide party/squad nameplate
    Add particle effect slider/ability to turn friendly player effects off

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    You think tanks just stand still and taunt on cooldown, and healers just stand there and heal.

    Please show me where I said that.

    Since I can show you where I pointed out that Tanks use skills to mitigate damage and I can tell you that healers also do other things (Like DPS)

    Playing those roles is so much more than that it would be massive tl;dr but you're just a troll baiting so its not worth going into detail.

    If the "Tl;dr" version is you just describing mechanics that exist in the game, then yeah, it's not worth doing.

    All games have mechanics. Telling me about them doesn't magically make a games intrinsic combat system suddenly more interesting or engaging. Especially when it does end up just boiling down to "Sit there, spam taunt and playing simon says with defensive skills" for Tanks and "Sit there spamming AoE heals" for healers. With general mechanics like "Don't stand in the bad" and "Interrupt the bad attack"

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    No one has evolved out of trinity because it works great and nothing so far has been better outside of extremely casual content.

    No one has evolved out of this archaic design because it's easy to just copy/paste what's already been done rather than actually put in thought into designing something new.

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    Feel free to come up with a better solution and make an MMO with it ,or you could just reference old dead games with this so called superior design lol.

    Sure. You gonna loan me several million dollars to make an MMO?

    I guess not. So I'll have to sit out on the "Make my own MMO" like it's a thing that anyone can do in their spare time.

    As far as better solutions, I've come up with several actually. It's just, not the kind of thing that you can just put into an existing game though, it requires combat systems to be built around them.

    A brief overview would be stuff like;

    • Tanking is done by way of control. You don't "Taunt" enemies or fart out aggro. Enemies are smart and focus the high priority targets such as healers and squishy DPS and it's the Tanks job to STOP them from doing that, by doing things like crippling them, chaining them down or even using themselves to physically block the enemy from walking past them. No "Sit here and spam taunt" gameplay that's so prominent. No "Simon says" where boss goes "SMASH" and you press a defensive skill (Either a CD or Block/Evade)
    • Healing is done alongside supportive duties. You heal, provide defensive boosts, chain with damaging skills and bolster allies resources (Mana/Energy/etc). You have an active role to play that contributes to overall party damage in addition to making sure people stay standing. Much less "Spam AoE healing" with simple generic gameplay outside of that and more dynamism with a plethora of tools to use in multiple situations.
    • DPS is done with a focus on capitalizing on conditional effects and situations such as positional bonuses, certain control effects (I.e. If the tank has made a boss fall down to the ground, DPS can attack its face for bonus damage) and allied skill effects (Like GW2's Combo Fields, but with more focus on needing to actually take advantage, rather than getting passive benefits for spamming fields on bosses) with add control being also part of DPS's responsibility (Since Tanks would be pre-occupied making sure the boss itself doesn't turn everyone into a fine paste). No AFK rotations while moving out of red circles or need to design every encounter to have complex and unintuitive mechanics just to give DPS something to do other than press their rotations...

    But of course, this is just a rough outline. Going more in depth would be pointless since these systems are utterly meaningless in any already established video game that has already created a core combat system that follows the lazy and uninspired trend of classic Trinity mechanics.

    @Rukia.4802 said:
    Tell me why raids were designed around trinity in GW2, I could tell you why, but I'd rather read your hilarious answer.

    Because it's easier to do. That is literally why.

    They couldn't think of a good way to make difficult content work with a "Play how you like" style focus on gameplay, without it being to easy to trivialize. So they opted to shoehorn in a trinity to make bosses that can require some tactics to beat given the nature of how combat in the game functions.

    Cat: Meow.

  • @Rukia.4802 said:

    It's why I still consider one of the best MMO's to date to be Anarchy Online since, outside of literally hardest raids in the game, the vast majority of content was very flexible in terms of the "Trinity" with lots of classes able to work as a tank or prevent the need for a tank and a lot of classes able to provide healing to sustain. This included their static dungeons as well as open world PvE and instanced PvE. This lead to a lot more fun because you were less concerned with specificly "Tank/Healer/DPS" trinities and more interested in what the classes that you had with you could do.

    Of course, the game is very dated now and Funcom is a terrible company but it's still a solid game in terms of having build variety and having ways to deal with group content. It also avoids the annoying thing where developers artificically kitten Tank/Healer DPS for reasons, so that even Enforcers/Soldiers/Medics can deal decent damage if built right (With Soldiers being highest DPS in the game if you manage to build them for it, though it's crazy expensive to do so)

    Every class could deal decent damage in AO if the build was right. But it is still one of the most complex MMOs I have played over the years: easy entry, very steep learning curve regarding character development and really nice group/raid content (mastering the Alien Commander raid on DNW server was a nice experience). And yes when played with a minimum requirement of players some classes were mandatory. Going in there without them resulted in a fail - that means everyone of the ca. 40 players had a specific role to play.

    Trinity has its pros (e.g. fixed roles for everybody - no effort into micromanaging skills, etc.) and cons (e.g. longer downtime on group content, since one role is missing). If someone likes it (s)he may play like it in GW2, but should not expect others to follow her/his lead. Even with the meta builds GW2 has a lot more to offer regarding character building.
    Imo the Trinity can only be replaced by systems like AO and GW2 (both have their downsides and are far from perfect - if that is even possible due to a very complex balancing issues), that allow players to test and optimize their builds, if they want to. Otherwise playing the game is possible but may be restricted in some aspects due to content designed to be challenging. But that should be ok in a game that mostly tries to avoid Trinity in a classical sense from the beginning.

  • Trinity is an antiquated system that results in players standing around for extended periods of time waiting to get the right combination together which is not something 99% of the player base purchased the game for so NO!

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2020

    TLDR; I agree with everyone who likes GW2 as it is - no trinity for most things, and a soft-ish trinity for other content. I also agree with those who believe that raiding could and should have been designed differently for GW2, instead of trying to shoehorn the trinity system into a game that was explicitly designed to work without it.

    I think 1 of 2 things should have happened with raids:

    (1) raids should have been instanced world boss-like encounters tuned for 10 people, scaled higher than it would in the open world and a tighter demand for control over cooldowns, strategic revives, etc. So basically open world stuff, but with much narrower margins for individual failure.

    The pros: respects the game's original structure.

    The cons: probably not very interesting. They might have attached some story to them, but people would figure out that they're just harder world bosses, and that hardly seems compelling. As it stands right now, the top few players carry everyone else in world boss encounters anyways, not sure what they'd find so much cooler about raids like this. I guess... no leeches?

    (2) raids should have come with a new raid-specific traitline universal to all classes. Instead of unlocking on a raid boss kill (like the raid masteries currently are), I think they could have made a strike mission or proto-raid for people to clear. Clearing this would unlock a raid-specific traitline. Instead of adept, master, and grandmaster tier traits to choose from, those would respectively become tank, dps, and heals traits, each with their associated minor trait as well. The purpose of this traitline would be to help each individual player become slightly better at the tasks traditionally split among tank/dps/heals in the classic trinity.

    Having each trinity role smashed into the same discipline would prevent the level of specialization that would turn people outright into any one of the three trinity roles, and having 3 of each to choose from would still allow for a bit of diversity. So for instance, there are different methods of tanking in classic trinity games. Some tanks are based on straight mitigation upon taking a hit, others are built around dodges, and still others are build around juggling invulns and other specialty cooldowns. The three traits in the "tank" tier of the raid traitline could allow you to take on some aspect of one of these types of tanking. Similar things could be done for healers, in terms of buffing cleanse, big burst single target heals, or weaker wide area heals. The possibilities for dps are truly broad and probably not worth discussing... you get the idea by now.

    Note that classes already do much of this on their own. Guardians can spec deeply into a near endless chain of blocks, mesmers are skill tanks that rely on timing dodges/distortion/block abilities to survive, and necros can just soak a ton of punishment and stay standing if built to do so. The point of the raid traitline would be to allow everyone else the capacity to tap into just a piece of that tanky goodness for themselves, to account for the higher pressure the raids should bring. Same concept applies for the 3 heals traits in the raid traitline. the dps traits are a bit iffy, since literally every class brings its own version of viable dps, but I guess those traits would be there just to buff whatever form of damage you like dealing. Put more simply, it would allow you to run a specialized build that is low on 2 of the 3 trinity roles, but also allow you to fill in the gaps on those 2 roles a bit without destroying your underlying build.

    I think this traitline should get its own (fourth) specialization slot that nothing else can go into (and that is only active in raid instances). Otherwise, I think all it would do is further break already brokenly good classes in competitive modes, while further trivializing other pve content that is easily doable without the assistance of this traitline.

    The pros: I haven't seen a game do something like this, and I think it better respects the game's core "no trinity needed" values. I think it would allow for raids to exist as they currently do, just with everyone able to fend for themselves a bit better so perhaps needing less in the way of dedicated tanks or support.

    The cons: seems like a ton of work for what was intended to be niche content, and if such traits were allowed to be active outside of raids it would further break already unbalanced specs in competitive modes. Also, it doesn't solve the underlying teamwork problem that OP pointed out. It would just enable people to do the same lame strats (stack in clusters until some mechanic forces scattering) a bit better without trinity roles.

    Lol well this pipe dream post turned out a lot longer than it deserves to be. TLDR added.

  • Vlad Morbius.1759Vlad Morbius.1759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2020

    I thought I would toss this quote out from a new player who joined GW2 two weeks ago and it explains the whole reason trinity needs to stay dead
    "I have played WoW on and off for about 6 months but the hours and hours waiting for Dungeon Queues and £10 per month sub free has started to really tick me off."
    This is exactly what happens in every trinity game, i know I've been playing MMO's since 1999 and experienced it over and over again. I went back and tried Basic WoW at relaunch and nothing has changed we sat waiting over and over again for a tank or healer finally having to resort to paying for one....sure sounds like fun to me.

  • Dondarrion.2748Dondarrion.2748 Member ✭✭✭

    @XYLO.7031 said:
    Bring back build diversity.

    Yes! Much rather this than the old, tried and dusted trinity that you can get in any other MMO.

    Black Gregor (Grd), Bondsmith Yharnam (Eng), Mistress Glaive (War), Hasla the Huntress (Rng)
    Shadow of Gahaz (Mes), Seaguard Hala (Mes) + The Wintertalon warband
    Northerner @ Dragon Season (DS) - The Seaguard (SG)
    Seafarer's Rest (SFR) since launch!

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For organized PvE (raids and such), I've always felt that the decision to do without the trinity was a mistake. However, I don't see how you can convert this game to a trinity game without changing pretty much everything about it. That being a terrible idea, I'd rather stick with what we have.

  • Altion.9576Altion.9576 Member ✭✭✭

    No point in adding something they never wanted to have in the game in the first place, also Im happy healing with my Healbrand. no need for a trinity.

  • I mean we already have it in PvE (raids).

    Healer: Heal Scourge, Heal Tempest, Heal Druid, Heal Scrapper (lolz), Heal Renegade, Heal Firebrand
    Supports: Alacrity Renegade, Boon Chronomancer, Banner Warrior, Boon Theif
    Tank: Anyone one who builds the highest toughness (though some are better than others ie Chrono, Druid, Firebrands)
    DPS: Everyone else

    Honestly, I like the current system. Classes have the ability to adapt based on team composition. The self-preservation skills (your heal/passives) were built-in with the idea that it's your skill that will keep you alive in general pve content (story, maps, metas, fractals). However, as time went on, specializations diversified the classes to actual roles.

    Based on the original poster, I feel like he's spent most of his time in general pve content and not high-end pve content based on this:

    1. this makes the game incrediblyl hard to balance.
      A: Name a trinity system mmo that's actually balanced

    2. I personally believe that most people are still smashing buttons because you rarely have to strategize.
      A: Compare a button smasher player to a player with proper rotation and look at the dps meter. Raids actually have to strategize their comps to be successful and people have to pull their weight in their role.

    3. While we do work togethr oftern in gw2 its almost too passive.
      A: I'm assuming the original poster is referring to Meta Map stuff. I don't know about you, but playing a heal scourge, druid, and healbrand, I can tell you most of my skills are very direct on trying to keep those red circle loving dps peeps alive.

    4. everything is too fast and it feels a bit like a mess.
      A. Fast is subjective. Some people like FF14's pacing. I think my microwaves spins faster then FF14's combat.

    I'm hoping that with the new expansions you will get more "gasp" build diversity with more healing, support specs each class can provide. So people can easily switch builds to fit needed roles than waiting 30 minutes for a healer.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2020

    There is far more strategy in doing T4/CM than any mythic+ WoW dungeon...
    The recent Mai Trin T4 + Hamstrung + We Bleed Fire + Mist Convergence was quite spicy to handle.

    Trinity is an illusion of challenge.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    IMO, raids shouldn't have been introduced in GW2 in the first place. That would have made this entire argument academic /shrug

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • frareanselm.1925frareanselm.1925 Member ✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    How can GW2 bring back the holy trinity when the game was practically based on the lack thereof? No. Please enjoy your trinity in the many other MMOs where it is already well in place.

    If the game was based about the lack of trinity the cration of the Druid was a incongruence.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @frareanselm.1925 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    How can GW2 bring back the holy trinity when the game was practically based on the lack thereof? No. Please enjoy your trinity in the many other MMOs where it is already well in place.

    If the game was based about the lack of trinity the cration of the Druid was a incongruence.

    Well, druid was released with HoT which also introduced raids, so....

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Kameko.8314Kameko.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    If you ever did a raid, you would realize the trinity is there. Done a fractal ever? The trinity is there. No direct healing which I am sad for, but the game does live on the trinity. They didn't come out and say it but in the beginning dungeons were a cluster kitten, same with fractals in the beginning until they realized, no way getting around it. That's why you have druid, a support firebrand, a chronomancer, etc. these were them saying, we mucked up. We are changing the game, but we don't want to say it in fear of maybe losing people to that idea that we are going to this. Can you do content without it? You betcha. Is it good to have the trinity? Darn right. They can stIll wriggle around and say they don't need it but... it's here

  • Obfuscate.6430Obfuscate.6430 Member ✭✭✭

    I would rather they emphasized the things which made each class unique so that they had a more coherent position in the party. Right now, most classes are similar. I am not sure why they moved in that direction.

  • keenedge.9675keenedge.9675 Member ✭✭✭

    "bring it back" it was never here

    Healing was pushed via the fecundity of heal stat items that drop from PoF. It did get some traction.

    Moral Statute Machine: John Spartan, you are fined five credits for repeated violations of the verbal morality statute.