Ranger and Thief relegated to small scale...when others can both zerg and small scale fight — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Ranger and Thief relegated to small scale...when others can both zerg and small scale fight

Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

https://metabattle.com/wiki/WvW

This is mostly a reminder to Anet with the upcoming 3rd expansion, there is hope this time around these two professions will see a decent (not even asking for meta status) Zerg level of fight build and iteration, I am suggesting this because at this point all other professions enjoy both a zerg and small group presence...all except ranger and thief, been like this since launch.

It's not possible anymore to use the same excuse: best roamer because simply speaking they're not, I don't think there is a "best roamer" spec anymore, no build atm guarantee you impunity...you can be killed even on a SA deadeye, which represents the epitome of "running away"

-Revenants can zerg/small group with power and condi herald
-Necros can zerg/small group with core necro-scourge and reaper
-Engis have scrapper and holosmith
-Guardians have firebrand, core guard and dragonhunter
-Eles have Tempest and weaver
-Warriors have spellbreaker and berseker
-Mesmers have chronomancer, mirage and core mesmer

All the mentioned above, do well/great in both zerg and small scenario , when talk about small scale ofc I don't refer only to running ability on a flat surface kind of roaming. Sadly Ranger suffers from "class mechanic" issues to join zerg fight = the pets simply insta die to aoe and thieves can't be given an overarching sustain ability for very obvious reasons ; I don't know how Anet can fix this problem but.....

There would be no point in buying another expansion, play another elite...only to be once again a 1vs1 duellist

-A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

<1

Comments

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    Meanwhile... after two expansions... necros are still waiting for a roaming build.

    The core mechanic of the mentioned classes hardly allows massive AOE or support since it is impossible to balance.

    Take thief: in its core it has way too much mobility to add strong AOE.
    Take ranger: way too much range and AI support.

    That's the reason why necros don't get mobility that's not limited to clunky speed rune or pre set wurm port mechanics.

    In 2014 ANet promised that their elite specs would add different ways to play a class. After two expansions we know they lack the ability (maybe it's game engine limitations, maybe it's lack of creativity) to design elite specs that define new roles.

    An AOE thief elite spec would require extreme mobility limitations the moment you pick the traitline. Not just "You can wear weapon xy and use yz utility skills.", but something like "You can wear weapon xy and use yz utility skills, that grant big AOE effects. Your stealth uptime is capped to 1 second. Your leaps and shadowsteps are limited to 600 range and have 50% increased cooldown / initiative costs."

    And then think about the maintenance effort for all these splittings...

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    It's not possible anymore to use the same excuse: best roamer because simply speaking they're not

    Except they still are. Neither class has any excuse. Especially not the thief as they still enjoy permastealth.

    Also there is a reason GW2 doesnt have so many limitations on your "main". You are meant to play different classes. So pick another if you want a specific purpose. As you say - almost all of them can do it.

    Except that they're not by a long shot! There is no duelling ranger or thief build that cannot be demolished by a say guardian, necro, engi etc etc....feel free to try and prove me wrong. Never had a problem with switching class especially because...I do that already and for that reason I can talk on the other hand you give no explanation why ranger and thief should be barred from zerg play.

    People play burn guardian in small scale all the times or reaper burst or tank scrapper with rocket boot .....

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Except that they're not by a long shot! There is no duelling ranger or thief build that cannot be demolished by a say guardian, necro, engi etc etc....

    A good roaming experience is about picking your targets and minimizing situations where you can be overwhelmed by numbers.

    A thief does only die, when he wants to. He can escape from a 50 man blob with two skills and not even another thief can stop him.

    And if you have a good terrain awareness, then ranger is the king of roaming due to its range and mobility.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Meanwhile... after two expansions... necros are still waiting for a roaming build.

    The core mechanic of the mentioned classes hardly allows massive AOE or support since it is impossible to balance.

    Take thief: in its core it has way too much mobility to add strong AOE.
    Take ranger: way too much range and AI support.

    That's the reason why necros don't get mobility that's not limited to clunky speed rune or pre set wurm port mechanics.

    In 2014 ANet promised that their elite specs would add different ways to play a class. After two expansions we know they lack the ability (maybe it's game engine limitations, maybe it's lack of creativity) to design elite specs that define new roles.

    An AOE thief elite spec would require extreme mobility limitations the moment you pick the traitline. Not just "You can wear weapon xy and use yz utility skills.", but something like "You can wear weapon xy and use yz utility skills, that grant big AOE effects. Your stealth uptime is capped to 1 second. Your leaps and shadowsteps are limited to 600 range and have 50% increased cooldown / initiative costs."

    And then think about the maintenance effort for all these splittings...

    Ranger "range" has been neutered by numerous nerfs and now even your glassiest build will fail to burst down anything sitting above full zerk stat combo, a burst that comes from the use of 30s+ CD utilities on top of 3 offensive traitlines/skills. Let me not start on "barrier and reflect" spam which completely shuts down any resemblance of ranged dmg

    Thief uses shortbow and shadowsteap for mobility..for any AoE application they would have to give up that mobility which is the only thing keeping them away from insta death, for how much we all(including me) hate thieves...let's try to be less biased in this case

    We don't know what the devs are really capable off...sometimes they nail it ( dragon hunter - chronomancer -scrapper -tempest -reaper - soulbeast)..others they don't, we can only pray but god it'd be a no deal for me if they'll ask me to play yet another duellist build on ranger

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Ranger "range" has been neutered by numerous nerfs and now even your glassiest build will fail to burst down anything sitting above full zerk stat combo, a burst that comes from the use of 30s+ CD utilities on top of 3 offensive traitlines/skills. Let me not start on "barrier and reflect" spam which completely shuts down any resemblance of ranged dmg

    I fight bursty soulbeasts all day. You should learn from them. They burst harder than a shatter mesmer from higher range, on a lower cooldown, with more mobility and a better melee weapon for the case that you can manage to close the gap.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Except that they're not by a long shot! There is no duelling ranger or thief build that cannot be demolished by a say guardian, necro, engi etc etc....

    A good roaming experience is about picking your targets and minimizing situations where you can be overwhelmed by numbers.

    A thief does only die, when he wants to. It can escape from a 50 man blob with two skills and not even another thief can stop it.

    And if you have a good terrain awareness, then ranger is the king of roaming due to its range and mobility.

    Dragon hunter reveal + sic'em can make short work of your hopes of escaping on thief, not impossible to run away...but these days it's not impossible to kill a thief before he can manage to run away

    With little to no access to unblockable, any ranged burst can be quickly be taken care of and then a herald or dragon hunter or thief can easily reach you and kill you off that's because you'd be running a glass cannon to deal any resemblance of dmg

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Ranger "range" has been neutered by numerous nerfs and now even your glassiest build will fail to burst down anything sitting above full zerk stat combo, a burst that comes from the use of 30s+ CD utilities on top of 3 offensive traitlines/skills. Let me not start on "barrier and reflect" spam which completely shuts down any resemblance of ranged dmg

    I fight bursty soulbeasts all day. You should learn from them. They burst harder than a shatter mesmer from higher range, on a lower cooldown, with more mobility and a better melee weapon for the case that you can manage to close the gap.

    Unless you catch somebody off guard while/after a fight..you won't kill any half decent player on a burst pewpew ranger.....with all this talk of ranger longbow...what are you trying to prove? I don't see the point with your discussion. You seem to forget about : condi heralds, burn guardians, reapers, core signet necros, bunker weavers, holosmiths, scrappers, spellbreakers etc etc . The point of this thread was to emphasize the lack of decent zerg builds for ranger and thief while other profession enjoy a healthy presence both in small and large scale...I see no problem with my request.

    If I must change class to enjoy large group fights ..fine....but then we need to take a hard long look at all other roamer specs...they shouldn't be able to even touch a ranger or thief then and that simply because those professions already enjoy their big zerg fights

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    I appreciate how @subversiontwo.7501 essentially ended the topic with the first post but everyone gets in a tussle over the semantics of roaming instead.

    Thief and Ranger both have a couple of different builds to be used in zergs. Zergs however are lead by one person, and quite frankly in my experience that one person barely registers on knowing how a large scale fight operates, much less how to optimize their tools to achieve X or Y. If all you know how to do is shout 'PUSH', well your builds are going to look like things that are good at pushing.

  • Fish.2769Fish.2769 Member ✭✭✭

    Ranger has never been in a zerg "meta" - poor design and was laughably under-powered on release. Since then they've become one of the strongest solo/small scale classes via buffs and Elite Specs. You can play in a zerg especially on a Soulbeast however the reason Ranger has never been part of the zerg meta is because everything a Ranger can do (All specs) can be done by another class better, which is what the "meta" is all about - the highest performance of/for X role.

    Thieves were part of the "meta" for a while - Daredevil spec. The damage and evasion they had/have access to was nearly unmatched. Pop in, spam Staff 5 and dodges, pop out unscathed. However, unlike Rangers, Thieves don't really add much to a zerg in terms of support, so to say that nothing a Thief does really helps others around them, rather than purely themselves. Yes, many other classes have similar builds etc but it's a Thief, the clue's in the name and the design...

    LRDR - Rangers and Thieves are more suited to roaming/small scale. Other classes can do what they do but better/more efficiently.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    I get where you are comming from with this, but I also feel I need to constantly point this out:

    The "meta" or websites with popular build recommendations are both a blessing and a curse (much like ArcDPS or whatever else). They are a blessing because there are some nice people out there who do the work so you (as a player or leader of players) do not have to. They are curse because you as a player or a leader of players do not do the work to adapt to what you have. I get in constant arguments with people I know over this, because as you well know, people treat these things as gospel when they are not. The truth has always been that there are players who are not good enough to handle those builds and there are players who are too good to limit themselves to those builds.

    When it comes the the Ranger and the Thief in larger scale gameplay the latter dominates. It is more a question of being above average that lets you leverage what those classes can bring to the table. However, if people spent more time developing their own builds and comps they would also develop more of their own style and that may fit less popular builds into comps more of the time at least.

    What is true is that once people start motivating why certain classes are not in a given comp they rarely have good reasons. There may good reasons as to why they are not selected on a website but most people who deal in building squads do not have that depth of knowledge or fully utilizes that depth when they are limited by working with what they have got at any given time. In those situations though they still tend to talk down about non-meta (or far off-meta) classes and builds but they tend to accept a bunch of other rather questionable or poor choices that in many ways are worse.

    That is where myths, like that Rangers wouldn't have good weapons for larger-scale gameplay, starts to brew.

    Anyway, to wrap this up. Right now the Ranger is kind of meta or at least close off-meta, but perhaps not for the right reasons, with rather boring immobilization builds. However, if we look past just the current trends there have certainly been a number of different ways to play both Ranger and Thief in settings upwards of 50 players, they have just not really been preferred in situations where the 1 leads the silent 49 and tells them to find a website because s/he can't deal with all the bull of sorting them out.

    How is the lack of ranged aoe weapons a myth?

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Give Soulbeast a weapon like rev hammer and it would instantly be meta for zerging.

    But why even talk about it.
    We told anet that it was always the weapon choice that holds ranger back.

    They should give every class a new weapon baseline to fix problems like that.

    Kitten, doesnt even need to be ranged. Just any non projectile weapon with decent aoe.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    How is the lack of ranged aoe weapons a myth?

    A ranger can chill at the top of damage meters with barrage by itself. I've done it. To say nothing of carrying the ability to make banner wielders lives hell with unblockable OWP piercing rapid fires at the same time.

    It's a matter of knowing how to position to do those things, knowing which targets you actually need to hit and how, and thus has a fairly high skill ceiling in order to be effective.

    The contention is that in a 25 man group, you would be better off with say... 5 scourges 5 heralds when the actual best thing would likely look something akin to 3 scourges 2 reapers 3 heralds 1 soulbeast 1 weaver. But the utilization of the latter requires far more commander knowledge and player knowledge. The former just requires the commander to say 'BOMB BOMB BOMB BOMB'. If you want rangers and thieves to be able to do the latter, well someone is getting kicked out, because you can only have 5 of those builds given party size.

  • misterman.1530misterman.1530 Member ✭✭✭

    As well, running Immob Beast in a zerg can be quite devastating if the enemies' stabs are weak.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @misterman.1530 said:
    As well, running Immob Beast in a zerg can be quite devastating if the enemies' stabs are weak.

    Stab does literally nothing to immob.

  • Sleepwalker.1398Sleepwalker.1398 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Can still play a staff daredevil or imob ranger in zerg.
    In small scale they both very good.
    You got your modifiers for ranger and well for thief...all i see is ppl port in with steal and massive cloak and dagger followed by "add next skill here" and before you know it, half your hp is gone.

  • Dagger.2035Dagger.2035 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    I get where you are coming from. I used to main thief and it was the only profession I would play in WvW for the first 2-3 years of this game. Back in the day with broken skills and no meta you could play anything you wanted. I did mess around with a hammer warrior and staff Elementalist, but I was stubborn and would mainly play thief.

    It wasn't until the HOT expansion that I seriously starting playing other professions. I setup a Revenant, Reaper, and later a Dragonhunter with ascended armor. After seeing how effective those professions were I could no longer play thief in zergs. You just feel outgunned and risk being a bag with all of the random AOE damage. Now that we have templates I'm mainly playing as my (Burn Guard/Minstrel Firebrand) or my (Hybrid Scourge/Power Reaper). The templates allow you to pick the best build for your current situation.

    I just want to encourage you to try other professions. It's fun trying out new builds and once you have several professions setup you are more resilient to nerfs or shifts in the meta. It also allows you to use the right tool for the right job. For example, nothing compares to a staff Elementalist when you are outnumbered and defending a keep.

    I also honestly don't think there is any way to make Thief or Ranger meta. If you are stuck on those professions, then your only options would be to try the staff Daredevil and immobilize Soulbeast from metabattle.

    .

    Server: Sorrow's Furnace
    Guilds: [DOA] Descendants Of Ascalon, [LOOT] Legendary Order Of Thieves
    Characters: Black Hooded Guardian, Necromancer, Thief, etc.

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    I don't really understand what is the problem. Ranger have soulbeast and thief have daredevil. Both are broken specs that can do everything.

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I do fine in large scale fights on daredevil and deadeye. They're both mostly the same build and template and mostly I pack my kit to cover people and open stuff up. I don't try to make a tanky build, my build is still kind of generic and not a huge amount of health, but the secondary mods that go off from traits and gear slot items can go a long way if staggered well and shortbow blast, shortbow 5 port, and Death's Retreat are great in team fights. Much of what it comes down to in large fights is calming down and realizing that most of the circles and effects don't require you to blow through your cooldowns and resource pools, you mostly need to read your side and the other side to know what people are plotting and panning camera to watch all your blind angles.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Give Soulbeast a weapon like rev hammer and it would instantly be meta for zerging.

    If there is any one change where the mechanics are rather wonky, I would say that they could do well in changing the Staff auto from a target-beam to a narrow and long cone (ie., like the Engi spray can but longer and thinner or like the Staff 4 roots). That would make the between-celestials play far more sleek, engaging and fun. It would also enhance celestial uptime for players who may still be learning alot.

    Also, God already responded to the question with most things you can do with a Longbow. However, I want to add one thing to that (even if I did not say ranged AoE in my initial post, that was just Arehundel's interpretation, that everything had to be ranged) and that is that even if there are alot of reflects and projectile-hate in the game, the Ranger is still one of the more mobile classes and you don't have to stand on tag to play with the tag.

    It seems to be an increasingly lost art where even alot of Eles these days only seems to hug tag, spam fields and complain about reflections, whereas more experienced Eles understands that they have high mobility - can get behind hostile flanks and wards - and that their burst damage output drastically improves from positions where they can combine fields and autos. That was bread and butter before.

    You can't always expect easy pickings off the tag but players with some level of experience will know how to position, move and when it is appropriate to be where. That goes for the Ranger too. Especially now when unblock-rotation bursts or trait-reset volleys may not be as devastating after the damage nerfs. Reflects are a thing and they will impact your damage more than the Revs for example, but all those classes excel when they learn how to play around the reflects. A Rev that supplements reticle AoE with autos is also a better Rev than one that just hugs tag to pirate ship (not including melee Revs ofc).

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I also honestly don't think there is any way to make Thief or Ranger meta. If you are stuck on those professions, then your only options would be to try the staff Daredevil and immobilize Soulbeast from metabattle.

    People have this notion that that Thief or Ranger are prevented from joining a squad inside WvW. All this really means is that if you were to rank professions and elites, from best to worse, in terms of their effectiveness in zergs, Thief and Ranger would be at the bottom, and in any content in any game mode, somebody has to be at the bottom. A decent player can have an impact with Ranger or Thief in a zerg, and nobody can argue against that. Thing is, that same player, if equally skilled in other professions, would have more of an impact on Necro, Rev, etc.

    It's just like PvE fractals - even in T4s, you don't need a healer, but in pug groups people like to have one as it makes things easier, and of all the healer builds, the Healbrand is superior in terms of boons and carry potential, so pugs in T4s always demand a Healbrand. Same thing holds true for zerg commanders. If they are opening it up to pugs, they don't people's "personal favorite" build, they want copy/paste off metabattle.

    You want to play Ranger or Thief in a zerg? Become good at it, join a guild and demonstrate that greatness to the commander(s), and when you run with them, open or closed, you will get your wish.

    Fact is, if I wanted to pick a profession for OW PvE stuff that had good AoE and cleave potential, the bottom of that list for me would be Thief and Ranger, so it's not a surprise that they fall behind other builds in a zerg. Equally not shocking, when in a small engagement, where single target DPS and training your target is more critical, Thief and Ranger are at the top of the food chain, while a builds like Scourge, Staff Ele and Hammer Rev have to work harder.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    snip

    The reason Ranger has no place in many zergs has to do with the braindead way the vast majority of players use the class.
    Stance Share and Immob spam are excellent contributors in WvW groups. Druid can do condi clear on a competitive level with Spellbreaker and Firebrand.
    A good soulbeast absolutely has a place in a t1 zerg.

    But what do "Ranger mains" do?
    Pew pew uselessly from the top of walls and squirrel off tag ad-nauseum hoping for a scrap of WxP.
    They get constantly jebaited out of position, they think nothing about what they bring to groups.
    They rock Longbow like it's the only weapon in their kit ignoring the value that Axe and GS can bring.
    They LB4 targets out of melee's position instead of using the skill situationally, and they think Barrage is acceptable damage.

    Most comms would be happy if your average ranger could Push on tag, keep their supply up and build on time....
    But you know what?
    Most "Ranger mains" can't manage these simple tasks and somehow think it's the job of an elite spec to give them a place in a zerg instead of just playing at the same minimum standard as the rest of us.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Crazy.6029Crazy.6029 Member ✭✭✭

    Anet just needs to give Rangers and teefs AoE Boons/heals/damage that is better than other classes, then boom, they are in. It's all about the boon ball AoE. Maybe next expansion they will do this. Hopefully though they kill the boon ball. Give either of these classes a hammer with a huge aoe on it and they will be in the club.

    Let's nerf everything, so that we don't need any skill to play.
    The Truth sometimes hurts but it is good for you.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yet, I see a couple of rangers in my server being top dps, reposition themselves at will away from main zerg and wreak havoc on the enemy backline, that kind of stuff... And noone kicks them! Mysterious indeed

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Most comms would be happy if your average ranger could Push on tag, keep their supply up and build on time....

    I gotta admit, it does get kinda frustrating to be pug-tagged pirateshipping enemies at 900 range and realize that half your group is rangers standing, like, 1200 units behind you when they could easily just be 300-600 units behind you and still contribute the bulk of their damage on-target.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Immob soulbeast and ranger are both accepted in most squads, just tell them you're running the right build instead of a roaming build. Staff daredevil is also accepted in most squads.

    The key is that you have to be actually good at using those classes, if you're pulling the same damage as a support class then you need to improve or use an easier class.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @God.2708 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    How is the lack of ranged aoe weapons a myth?

    A ranger can chill at the top of damage meters with barrage by itself. I've done it.

    So you TOP the damage meter with barrage...ok...video pls...pls...PLEASE

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Immob soulbeast and ranger are both accepted in most squads, just tell them you're running the right build instead of a roaming build. Staff daredevil is also accepted in most squads.

    The key is that you have to be actually good at using those classes, if you're pulling the same damage as a support class then you need to improve or use an easier class.

    Where are these TOP dmg "immobilize soulbeast" and most of all.......where is your ranger?

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    snip

    The reason Ranger has no place in many zergs has to do with the braindead way the vast majority of players use the class.
    Stance Share and Immob spam are excellent contributors in WvW groups. Druid can do condi clear on a competitive level with Spellbreaker and Firebrand.
    A good soulbeast absolutely has a place in a t1 zerg.

    But what do "Ranger mains" do?
    Pew pew uselessly from the top of walls and squirrel off tag ad-nauseum hoping for a scrap of WxP.
    They get constantly jebaited out of position, they think nothing about what they bring to groups.
    They rock Longbow like it's the only weapon in their kit ignoring the value that Axe and GS can bring.
    They LB4 targets out of melee's position instead of using the skill situationally, and they think Barrage is acceptable damage.

    Most comms would be happy if your average ranger could Push on tag, keep their supply up and build on time....
    But you know what?
    Most "Ranger mains" can't manage these simple tasks and somehow think it's the job of an elite spec to give them a place in a zerg instead of just playing at the same minimum standard as the rest of us.

    Do you even have a ranger to speak so badly about those actually maining it? I do have a warrior fully geared, I can roam and zerg with it np, I like to run tactics/spellbreaker build.....what about you on ranger?

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crazy.6029 said:
    Anet just needs to give Rangers and teefs AoE Boons/heals/damage that is better than other classes, then boom, they are in. It's all about the boon ball AoE. Maybe next expansion they will do this. Hopefully though they kill the boon ball. Give either of these classes a hammer with a huge aoe on it and they will be in the club.

    Put that thief on boon steal and start dismantling the other blob. One or two key support either killed or pulled out of their core for a bit can cascade pretty fast. You don't want to give thief any more boons, especially if that option were available on Deadeye with Premeditation. I can already line up a lot of boons, but another source would make it too sustainable. There are usually enough heals going around already, thief has one of the easier Blasts and it's effective, especially when the squad your covering is slowly trying to walk out of or into someplace. You could try to build around Shadow Savior but you'd mess up your stat thresholds building around it, though Anet could boost that one a bit, but only the heal ally part, I'm already siphoning life from blinds on Shortbow 5 which is considered a Shadowstep.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Crazy.6029Crazy.6029 Member ✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Crazy.6029 said:
    Anet just needs to give Rangers and teefs AoE Boons/heals/damage that is better than other classes, then boom, they are in. It's all about the boon ball AoE. Maybe next expansion they will do this. Hopefully though they kill the boon ball. Give either of these classes a hammer with a huge aoe on it and they will be in the club.

    Put that thief on boon steal and start dismantling the other blob. One or two key support either killed or pulled out of their core for a bit can cascade pretty fast. You don't want to give thief any more boons, especially if that option were available on Deadeye with Premeditation. I can already line up a lot of boons, but another source would make it too sustainable. There are usually enough heals going around already, thief has one of the easier Blasts and it's effective, especially when the squad your covering is slowly trying to walk out of or into someplace. You could try to build around Shadow Savior but you'd mess up your stat thresholds building around it, though Anet could boost that one a bit, but only the heal ally part, I'm already siphoning life from blinds on Shortbow 5 which is considered a Shadowstep.

    Lemme clarify, shareable AoE Boons/heals plus Aoe damage. Im not saying that they cant contribute to the zerg in any positive way of course they can, why not mix it up, let them be meta for a while. It wouldn't bother me to read in T chat, LFM THieves pub 1 discord...or whatever. Why not?

    Let's nerf everything, so that we don't need any skill to play.
    The Truth sometimes hurts but it is good for you.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crazy.6029 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Crazy.6029 said:
    Anet just needs to give Rangers and teefs AoE Boons/heals/damage that is better than other classes, then boom, they are in. It's all about the boon ball AoE. Maybe next expansion they will do this. Hopefully though they kill the boon ball. Give either of these classes a hammer with a huge aoe on it and they will be in the club.

    Put that thief on boon steal and start dismantling the other blob. One or two key support either killed or pulled out of their core for a bit can cascade pretty fast. You don't want to give thief any more boons, especially if that option were available on Deadeye with Premeditation. I can already line up a lot of boons, but another source would make it too sustainable. There are usually enough heals going around already, thief has one of the easier Blasts and it's effective, especially when the squad your covering is slowly trying to walk out of or into someplace. You could try to build around Shadow Savior but you'd mess up your stat thresholds building around it, though Anet could boost that one a bit, but only the heal ally part, I'm already siphoning life from blinds on Shortbow 5 which is considered a Shadowstep.

    Lemme clarify, shareable AoE Boons/heals plus Aoe damage. Im not saying that they cant contribute to the zerg in any positive way of course they can, why not mix it up, let them be meta for a while. It wouldn't bother me to read in T chat, LFM THieves pub 1 discord...or whatever. Why not?

    If the thief gets any of that shareable AoE it could be too strong, I could see Anet messing with Initiative even more than they have recently. I can move tightly with a group or squad when needed, but I also need to be free to bounce and hit up something else real quick, being "meta" sounds limiting for a thief. If AoE support was baked into weapon skills, that would probably result in a hit to Initiative. They could re-work one or two of the new Preparations to implement what you're suggesting, which wouldn't dislodge some other aspect since they're already in place and they could be regulated without messing with the rest of the class much.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    snip

    The reason Ranger has no place in many zergs has to do with the braindead way the vast majority of players use the class.
    Stance Share and Immob spam are excellent contributors in WvW groups. Druid can do condi clear on a competitive level with Spellbreaker and Firebrand.
    A good soulbeast absolutely has a place in a t1 zerg.

    But what do "Ranger mains" do?
    Pew pew uselessly from the top of walls and squirrel off tag ad-nauseum hoping for a scrap of WxP.
    They get constantly jebaited out of position, they think nothing about what they bring to groups.
    They rock Longbow like it's the only weapon in their kit ignoring the value that Axe and GS can bring.
    They LB4 targets out of melee's position instead of using the skill situationally, and they think Barrage is acceptable damage.

    Most comms would be happy if your average ranger could Push on tag, keep their supply up and build on time....
    But you know what?
    Most "Ranger mains" can't manage these simple tasks and somehow think it's the job of an elite spec to give them a place in a zerg instead of just playing at the same minimum standard as the rest of us.

    Do you even have a ranger to speak so badly about those actually maining it? I do have a warrior fully geared, I can roam and zerg with it np, I like to run tactics/spellbreaker build.....what about you on ranger?

    I run Two ranger builds in WvW. I "mained" Ranger for the first 3-4 months I played this game in both PvE and WvW. I understand the class pretty well.
    I have no problem getting in a group because I pull my weight. I my server has been T1 for a while.
    That said...
    Neither I, nor Risen Howl need to actually play the class to see full well just how AWFUL most WvW Rangers are.
    Arc shows the substandard performance and lack of contribution, the corpses show the ineptitude, and the forum qq by players who think Anet needs provide them a guaranteed spot in a group tells the rest of the tale.
    Those of us who actually understand the kit know this is a issue with an entire class' level of play, not the class itself.

    Play better. Encourage other Rangers to play better. Meet the same expectations other players are instead of asking Anet for yet another crutch.
    It's the actual answer.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Most comms would be happy if your average ranger could Push on tag, keep their supply up and build on time....

    I gotta admit, it does get kinda frustrating to be pug-tagged pirateshipping enemies at 900 range and realize that half your group is rangers standing, like, 1200 units behind you when they could easily just be 300-600 units behind you and still contribute the bulk of their damage on-target.

    And the majority of them just dont care to make an actual contribution.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    snip

    The reason Ranger has no place in many zergs has to do with the braindead way the vast majority of players use the class.
    Stance Share and Immob spam are excellent contributors in WvW groups. Druid can do condi clear on a competitive level with Spellbreaker and Firebrand.
    A good soulbeast absolutely has a place in a t1 zerg.

    But what do "Ranger mains" do?
    Pew pew uselessly from the top of walls and squirrel off tag ad-nauseum hoping for a scrap of WxP.
    They get constantly jebaited out of position, they think nothing about what they bring to groups.
    They rock Longbow like it's the only weapon in their kit ignoring the value that Axe and GS can bring.
    They LB4 targets out of melee's position instead of using the skill situationally, and they think Barrage is acceptable damage.

    Most comms would be happy if your average ranger could Push on tag, keep their supply up and build on time....
    But you know what?
    Most "Ranger mains" can't manage these simple tasks and somehow think it's the job of an elite spec to give them a place in a zerg instead of just playing at the same minimum standard as the rest of us.

    Do you even have a ranger to speak so badly about those actually maining it? I do have a warrior fully geared, I can roam and zerg with it np, I like to run tactics/spellbreaker build.....what about you on ranger?

    I run Two ranger builds in WvW. I "mained" Ranger for the first 3-4 months I played this game in both PvE and WvW. I understand the class pretty well.
    I have no problem getting in a group because I pull my weight. I my server has been T1 for a while.
    That said...
    Neither I, nor Risen Howl need to actually play the class to see full well just how AWFUL most WvW Rangers are.
    Arc shows the substandard performance and lack of contribution, the corpses show the ineptitude, and the forum qq by players who think Anet needs provide them a guaranteed spot in a group tells the rest of the tale.
    Those of us who actually understand the kit know this is a issue with an entire class' level of play, not the class itself.

    Play better. Encourage other Rangers to play better. Meet the same expectations other players are instead of asking Anet for yet another crutch.
    It's the actual answer.

    You make loads of assumptions without prior knowledge of the parties involved...your whole argument is based on assumptions...I don't make assumptions. I only need to repost part of your comment here :

    @mindcircus.1506 said: Druid can do condi clear on a competitive level with Spellbreaker and Firebrand

    On the forum everybody act like a God of PvP but it's quite easy in the end to dismantle their arguments , drop the act already....you should at the very least have description knowledge of what you pretend to know

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Druidic_Clarity

    Please stop embarrassing yourself any further

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @God.2708 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    How is the lack of ranged aoe weapons a myth?

    A ranger can chill at the top of damage meters with barrage by itself. I've done it.

    So you TOP the damage meter with barrage...ok...video pls...pls...PLEASE

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/95962795765415936/735631781251776542/unknown.png

    Apparently didn't record that particular night, but do have a video of my very first time trying it. Started the fight late (can see from the time discrepancy) but managed to hold at ~the DPS levels of some INCREDIBLY GOOD scourges and heralds. Wasn't even a competition vs an average or bad one. Don't have access to the computer with the video atm so the screen will have to do.

    I probably wouldn't stack this in a zerg, though I've tried something akin to that as jokes and it was far more effective than people would have you believe. But, if you want a zerg to be stacked with rangers frankly I don't find that appealing at all. I'd rather have classes have strengths and weaknesses to the point that in a 25 man zerg you want to run 15+ different specializations to be truly effective. A soulbeast or two running around doing what I'm doing is very much in line with that, and people have posted several different builds that do that with.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @God.2708 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    How is the lack of ranged aoe weapons a myth?

    A ranger can chill at the top of damage meters with barrage by itself. I've done it.

    So you TOP the damage meter with barrage...ok...video pls...pls...PLEASE

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/95962795765415936/735631781251776542/unknown.png

    Apparently didn't record that particular night, but do have a video of my very first time trying it. Started the fight late (can see from the time discrepancy) but managed to hold at ~the DPS levels of some INCREDIBLY GOOD scourges and heralds. Wasn't even a competition vs an average or bad one. Don't have access to the computer with the video atm so the screen will have to do.

    I probably wouldn't stack this in a zerg, though I've tried something akin to that as jokes and it was far more effective than people would have you believe. But, if you want a zerg to be stacked with rangers frankly I don't find that appealing at all. I'd rather have classes have strengths and weaknesses to the point that in a 25 man zerg you want to run 15+ different specializations to be truly effective. A soulbeast or two running around doing what I'm doing is very much in line with that, and people have posted several different builds that do that with.

    1m difference to get 2-3x more DPS than you who is forced to use 40s+ CD utilities/elites to gain that short window of dmg : sic'em + one wolf pack? But whatever I am not here to discuss what people consider good, made the thread more as a reminder. It's 2020 and almost all professions basically get to enjoy small and large scale but when it comes to rangers or thieves this should not be allowed other than for some personal bias .

    Some people still going with their drama act : ranger and thief best roamers which is now factually not true

    I can jump on guardian and load burn dragon hunter and destroy all but the best ranger/thief player out there...when I am tired of roaming I can load burning core guard and spamm 2-3 with the staff and sword of justice off CD to go and collect 30-40 bags within 1hr at worst......where are the weaknesses here?, I am not asking for nerfs here, I do main guardian also so I know what I am talking about...not like the guy before you who claimed that Druid could clear condis from allies like a firebrand...I don't talk out of my behind....

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    snip

    The reason Ranger has no place in many zergs has to do with the braindead way the vast majority of players use the class.
    Stance Share and Immob spam are excellent contributors in WvW groups. Druid can do condi clear on a competitive level with Spellbreaker and Firebrand.
    A good soulbeast absolutely has a place in a t1 zerg.

    But what do "Ranger mains" do?
    Pew pew uselessly from the top of walls and squirrel off tag ad-nauseum hoping for a scrap of WxP.
    They get constantly jebaited out of position, they think nothing about what they bring to groups.
    They rock Longbow like it's the only weapon in their kit ignoring the value that Axe and GS can bring.
    They LB4 targets out of melee's position instead of using the skill situationally, and they think Barrage is acceptable damage.

    Most comms would be happy if your average ranger could Push on tag, keep their supply up and build on time....
    But you know what?
    Most "Ranger mains" can't manage these simple tasks and somehow think it's the job of an elite spec to give them a place in a zerg instead of just playing at the same minimum standard as the rest of us.

    Do you even have a ranger to speak so badly about those actually maining it? I do have a warrior fully geared, I can roam and zerg with it np, I like to run tactics/spellbreaker build.....what about you on ranger?

    I run Two ranger builds in WvW. I "mained" Ranger for the first 3-4 months I played this game in both PvE and WvW. I understand the class pretty well.
    I have no problem getting in a group because I pull my weight. I my server has been T1 for a while.
    That said...
    Neither I, nor Risen Howl need to actually play the class to see full well just how AWFUL most WvW Rangers are.
    Arc shows the substandard performance and lack of contribution, the corpses show the ineptitude, and the forum qq by players who think Anet needs provide them a guaranteed spot in a group tells the rest of the tale.
    Those of us who actually understand the kit know this is a issue with an entire class' level of play, not the class itself.

    Play better. Encourage other Rangers to play better. Meet the same expectations other players are instead of asking Anet for yet another crutch.
    It's the actual answer.

    You make loads of assumptions without prior knowledge of the parties involved...your whole argument is based on assumptions...I don't make assumptions. I only need to repost part of your comment here :

    I use Data.

    @mindcircus.1506 said: Druid can do condi clear on a competitive level with Spellbreaker and Firebrand

    On the forum everybody act like a God of PvP but it's quite easy in the end to dismantle their arguments , drop the act already....you should at the very least have description knowledge of what you pretend to know

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Druidic_Clarity

    Please stop embarrassing yourself any further

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vine_Surge
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Seed_of_Life
    But please.... go on about how well you understand Ranger.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    1m difference to get 2-3x more DPS than you who is forced to use 40s+ CD utilities/elites to gain that short window of dmg : sic'em + one wolf pack? But whatever I am not here to discuss what people consider good, made the thread more as a reminder. It's 2020 and almost all professions basically get to enjoy small and large scale but when it comes to rangers or thieves this should not be allowed other than for some personal bias .

    Some people still going with their drama act : ranger and thief best roamers which is now factually not true

    I can jump on guardian and load burn dragon hunter and destroy all but the best ranger/thief player out there...when I am tired of roaming I can load burning core guard and spamm 2-3 with the staff and sword of justice off CD to go and collect 30-40 bags within 1hr at worst......where are the weaknesses here?, I am not asking for nerfs here, I do main guardian also so I know what I am talking about...not like the guy before you who claimed that Druid could clear condis from allies like a firebrand...I don't talk out of my behind....

    Edit: Build was GS + LB with stance share Dolyak + Bear + OWP, with QZ and signet of the hunt.

    One minute to get ~1.4x my DPS on the first night I was playing with the build (though not my first time on a ranger). And again, exceptionally good revenant. Average revenant will sit at 2.5k over a fight that long, at best. Average scourge especially post nerf is more like 1.5k to maybe 2k.

    A druid can competitively clear conditions with a firebrand too, the other support it offers just isn't interesting in a way that makes you want one in every party.

    And I don't understand your question. I can sit on that build and one shot a banner from 1.5k range away before they can even engage their skills and then sit there running in and out of my zerg and maintain close to herald DPS and I don't even HAVE TO CHANGE MY BUILD. Though I could.

    You had your answer in the very first comment. If you're addressing frustration at inept commanders not properly adapting or not being willing to risk dealing with bad rangers, that's fair. There might be some merit to the argument that Rangers don't enjoy a low skill floor build that can just AFK in a zerg and still accomplish their general class purpose (though I'd argue that isn't a thing for any class now). Overall Rangers enjoy several builds that can fit somewhat nicely into a zerg and can alternate back and forth to it from their roaming build. You just don't need a zerg full of them, but really anyone saying you need a zerg full of scourges is full of kitten too.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Immob soulbeast and ranger are both accepted in most squads, just tell them you're running the right build instead of a roaming build. Staff daredevil is also accepted in most squads.

    The key is that you have to be actually good at using those classes, if you're pulling the same damage as a support class then you need to improve or use an easier class.

    Where are these TOP dmg "immobilize soulbeast" and most of all.......where is your ranger?

    slb isn't generally going to top damage, but that's a little different from doing the same damage as a support right? Even in good hands it falls somewhere in the middle of the pack. The immob bombs he's dropping though are evident in those clips, we can clip off 3-5 people per engage pretty reliably in the first 5s because they can't dodge the melee bomb. That sets our squad up to win rally wars =D

    Bear stance and dolyak stance are top tier support skills in a zerg, dolyak stance in particular when it's in the tag's party since they're the ones most likely to get hit by immob/chill/cripple etc. during a push.

    I am not particularly good at playing ranger, which is why i haven't made any public videos about it. I've seen enough competent soulbeasts at work though to know it works well.

    I can say that staff daredevil works fine, even when it's not something I get to play often:

    Which again, brings me to the issue of player skill. If you're not good at using that class and can't get good results in a zerg, that's on you.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2020

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Immob soulbeast and ranger are both accepted in most squads, just tell them you're running the right build instead of a roaming build. Staff daredevil is also accepted in most squads.

    slb isn't generally going to top damage, but that's a little different from doing the same damage as a support right? Even in good hands it falls somewhere in the middle of the pack. The immob bombs he's dropping though are evident in those clips, we can clip off 3-5 people per engage pretty reliably in the first 5s because they can't dodge the melee bomb. That sets our squad up to win rally wars =D

    Soulbeast does not have an immob build, do please play with the class before saying this kind of clueless things. Entangle is a 60s CD skill for god's sake.
    Druid on the other hand is the actual "immob" ranger thing you are referring to thanks to Ancient Seeds trait. Druid brings nothing else of consequence (not even noticeable heals) if it builds for immobilize.

    Immobilize builds are only a thing if your Firebrands, Scrappers, tempest and warriors aren't doing their job. With 300 conversions on average you should not feel any immob while playing.
    Immob builds are very annoying in small scale however.

    Bear stance and dolyak stance are top tier support skills in a zerg, dolyak stance in particular when it's in the tag's party since they're the ones most likely to get hit by immob/chill/cripple etc. during a push.

    Stance sharing is hot garbage right now. Until the Leader of the Pack can share the 100% duration with squad and not the 50% as until now, support soulbeast only shines in public zergs with very bad players. I have written a couple of forum posts with all the receipts you may ask for. One in Wvw another in the ranger subforum.

    I am not particularly good at playing ranger, which is why i haven't made any public videos about it. I've seen enough competent soulbeasts at work though to know it works well.

    Don't worry most of the people on this thread clearly they don't know what they are talking about when it's regarding thief and ranger.

    I can say that staff daredevil works fine, even when it's not something I get to play often:

    Daredevil can work in squad comps. The problem is the class is very unfun to play while doing that and brings absolutely nothing to the squad. Spamming Vault while pushing doesn't have any risks (because of the perma evasion) and brings very little rewards. And at the end again brings nothing for the rest of the squad so it doesn't make a case to be wanted or desired.

    I > @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    Give Soulbeast a weapon like rev hammer and it would instantly be meta for zerging.

    But why even talk about it.
    We told anet that it was always the weapon choice that holds ranger back.

    They should give every class a new weapon baseline to fix problems like that.

    Kitten, doesnt even need to be ranged. Just any non projectile weapon with decent aoe.

    I fully agree with DanAlcedo.
    For soulbeast to have an spot in squads just needs:

    • Leader of the pack to share full duration with allies.
    • A weapon that can perform decently in zergs. Dagger/torch could be an option but the dagger needs a full rework.
    • Additionally and this is my opinion: Move the damage reduction from Doylak to Bear as that stance already has too many perks and after that also reduce the CD in sPvP as soulbeast needs access to that stab if Anet wants the soulbeast to use more melee (all stabs are in +60s CD).

    And try out with that to see how it goes.

    For thief it would need a full spec as DE is focus in Single target (same problem as ranger) with no utility and DD has not set of tools to benefit the squad.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The thing is in blob fights those who have the most 5 targets or more soft cc hard cc and boon corrupt will win.

    And being able to spam those ground target skills is they means to do it. If your class specializes on single targets then you have a special role. Either snip the com/kill necros and revs and scrappers.

    Based on my first premise classes with single targets will have it hard no matter how good they are especially if the ae enemy is a range spammer.

    The few things you can do to counter their dominance is 1. Stealth 2. Superspeed 3. Damage. Then again 10 ppl dropping guardian staff 3 and 2 on you will probably end up killing you and not to mention you'll have to pass 10 revs dropping hammer 2. And 20 scourges spamming marks and 10 eles spamming meteors.

    Just choose you ur battle. And thrive by killing the stragglers or the enemy necros Revs and scrappers. Or their commander.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Immob soulbeast and ranger are both accepted in most squads, just tell them you're running the right build instead of a roaming build. Staff daredevil is also accepted in most squads.

    slb isn't generally going to top damage, but that's a little different from doing the same damage as a support right? Even in good hands it falls somewhere in the middle of the pack. The immob bombs he's dropping though are evident in those clips, we can clip off 3-5 people per engage pretty reliably in the first 5s because they can't dodge the melee bomb. That sets our squad up to win rally wars =D

    Soulbeast does not have an immob build, do please play with the class before saying this kind of clueless things. Entangle is a 60s CD skill for god's sake.
    Druid on the other hand is the actual "immob" ranger thing you are referring to thanks to Ancient Seeds trait. Druid brings nothing else of consequence (not even noticeable heals) if it builds for immobilize.

    Immobilize builds are only a thing if your Firebrands, Scrappers, tempest and warriors aren't doing their job. With 300 conversions on average you should not feel any immob while playing.
    Immob builds are very annoying in small scale however.

    Bear stance and dolyak stance are top tier support skills in a zerg, dolyak stance in particular when it's in the tag's party since they're the ones most likely to get hit by immob/chill/cripple etc. during a push.

    Stance sharing is hot garbage right now. Until the Leader of the Pack can share the 100% duration with squad and not the 50% as until now, support soulbeast only shines in public zergs with very bad players. I have written a couple of forum posts with all the receipts you may ask for. One in Wvw another in the ranger subforum.

    I am not particularly good at playing ranger, which is why i haven't made any public videos about it. I've seen enough competent soulbeasts at work though to know it works well.

    Don't worry most of the people on this thread clearly they don't know what they are talking about when it's regarding thief and ranger.

    I can say that staff daredevil works fine, even when it's not something I get to play often:

    Daredevil can work in squad comps. The problem is the class is very unfun to play while doing that and brings absolutely nothing to the squad. Spamming Vault while pushing doesn't have any risks (because of the perma evasion) and brings very little rewards. And at the end again brings nothing for the rest of the squad so it doesn't make a case to be wanted or desired.

    I > @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    Give Soulbeast a weapon like rev hammer and it would instantly be meta for zerging.

    But why even talk about it.
    We told anet that it was always the weapon choice that holds ranger back.

    They should give every class a new weapon baseline to fix problems like that.

    Kitten, doesnt even need to be ranged. Just any non projectile weapon with decent aoe.

    I fully agree with DanAlcedo.
    For soulbeast to have an spot in squads just needs:

    • Leader of the pack to share full duration with allies.
    • A weapon that can perform decently in zergs. Dagger/torch could be an option but the dagger needs a full rework.
    • Additionally and this is my opinion: Move the damage reduction from Doylak to Bear as that stance already has too many perks and after that also reduce the CD in sPvP as soulbeast needs access to that stab if Anet wants the soulbeast to use more melee (all stabs are in +60s CD).

    And try out with that to see how it goes.

    For thief it would need a full spec as DE is focus in Single target (same problem as ranger) with no utility and DD has not set of tools to benefit the squad.

    What the worst is that stance share feels like it was designed for WvW.

    But on the same time "lets troll rangers by giving them a dagger loloololol".

    Hammer would fit the theme and given rangers an EZ zerg build.

  • Dagger.2035Dagger.2035 Member ✭✭✭

    I think the difficulty with having this discussion is the distinction between viable and meta. No one is saying that a Ranger or Thief can’t be successful in a zerg fight or have the best DPS. They just aren’t as effective or consistent as other professions.

    For example, imagine the worst case scenario. A fight with 50 vs 50 who are currently pirate shipping through a choke point. Due to the number of players there is a lot of AOE. The choke point prevents you from attacking edges to get closer. Projectile hate blocks or reflects most of your ranged attacks. A thief won’t be able to do much in this situation. A Ranger is limited to using Barrage and Druid staff attacks. This is why Elementalists, Necromancers, and Revenants are usually better damage options.

    Do you put yourself at a disadvantage by playing a Ranger or Thief in a zerg? Yes. Do you put your entire team at a disadvantage by running these professions in a zerg? Yes. This doesn’t mean that they can’t be played. I just want to emphasize that they aren’t the optimal choice.

    Server: Sorrow's Furnace
    Guilds: [DOA] Descendants Of Ascalon, [LOOT] Legendary Order Of Thieves
    Characters: Black Hooded Guardian, Necromancer, Thief, etc.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I think the difficulty with having this discussion is the distinction between viable and meta. No one is saying that a Ranger or Thief can’t be successful in a zerg fight or have the best DPS. They just aren’t as effective or consistent as other professions.

    For example, imagine the worst case scenario. A fight with 50 vs 50 who are currently pirate shipping through a choke point. Due to the number of players there is a lot of AOE. The choke point prevents you from attacking edges to get closer. Projectile hate blocks or reflects most of your ranged attacks. A thief won’t be able to do much in this situation. A Ranger is limited to using Barrage and Druid staff attacks. This is why Elementalists, Necromancers, and Revenants are usually better damage options.

    Do you put yourself at a disadvantage by playing a Ranger or Thief in a zerg? Yes. Do you put your entire team at a disadvantage by running these professions in a zerg? Yes. This doesn’t mean that they can’t be played. I just want to emphasize that they aren’t the optimal choice.

    The point of the thread is that other professions now have optimal builds both for zerging and small scale leaving ranger and thief relegated to just small scale, that's simply not fair and ofc....you will always people advocating against fairness as long as they get their way first.

    Hammer rev?...they have condi and power herald roaming builds
    Scourge?..they have obnoxious signet core necro and reaper for roaming
    Fb?...they have burn/power dragonhunter and core
    Scrapper?...easy holosmith and condi scrapper

    Ranger and thief are still good at running and that's it, other professions can easily overwhelm and outpace any ranger/thief build thrown in their face so the whole argument : best roamer class...goes out of the window and I know that because I do play other professions against ranger/thief and they are the easiest ones to kill in duels by a mile compared to say a condi rev, a "never die" holo or scrapper or core necro or even kitten dragon hunter with several blocks where it seems to get forever before you can get through all of them

    A single rotation on my burn guardian and 3/4 of the ranger/thieves I meet in wvw will insta die......this argument best roaming class has stopped being true years ago. All roaming specs on ranger have been nerfed to the kitten ground and it takes some serious effort now to overcome all the cheese other professions are capable of.

    For all those nerfs there never was any resemblance of compensation in the case of a semi-viable zerg build...meanwhile you have classes like necro or guardian...

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Dagger.2035Dagger.2035 Member ✭✭✭

    I agree with what you (OP) are asking for, but I don’t think it will happen. It seems as though PVE comes first when a new elite specialization is designed. WVW is also an afterthought.

    Server: Sorrow's Furnace
    Guilds: [DOA] Descendants Of Ascalon, [LOOT] Legendary Order Of Thieves
    Characters: Black Hooded Guardian, Necromancer, Thief, etc.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I think the difficulty with having this discussion is the distinction between viable and meta. No one is saying that a Ranger or Thief can’t be successful in a zerg fight or have the best DPS. They just aren’t as effective or consistent as other professions.

    For example, imagine the worst case scenario. A fight with 50 vs 50 who are currently pirate shipping through a choke point. Due to the number of players there is a lot of AOE. The choke point prevents you from attacking edges to get closer. Projectile hate blocks or reflects most of your ranged attacks. A thief won’t be able to do much in this situation. A Ranger is limited to using Barrage and Druid staff attacks. This is why Elementalists, Necromancers, and Revenants are usually better damage options.

    Do you put yourself at a disadvantage by playing a Ranger or Thief in a zerg? Yes. Do you put your entire team at a disadvantage by running these professions in a zerg? Yes. This doesn’t mean that they can’t be played. I just want to emphasize that they aren’t the optimal choice.

    They ARE the optimal choice. See second post. Just because your commander is lazy or you don't see why they are doesn't mean they aren't. I don't know why people have to be broken records and repeat this over and over. The META as defined by metabattle is incredibly narrow in its vision because it's providing a simple structure for newer players/comms to perform fights easily. What's VIABLE is filling your zerg with scourges and firebrands, and what might be the issue is that doing so with soulbeasts and druids isn't and that makes people sad. But putting rangers in your zerg is 100% certainly the optimal way to play it.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2020

    @God.2708 said:

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I think the difficulty with having this discussion is the distinction between viable and meta. No one is saying that a Ranger or Thief can’t be successful in a zerg fight or have the best DPS. They just aren’t as effective or consistent as other professions.

    For example, imagine the worst case scenario. A fight with 50 vs 50 who are currently pirate shipping through a choke point. Due to the number of players there is a lot of AOE. The choke point prevents you from attacking edges to get closer. Projectile hate blocks or reflects most of your ranged attacks. A thief won’t be able to do much in this situation. A Ranger is limited to using Barrage and Druid staff attacks. This is why Elementalists, Necromancers, and Revenants are usually better damage options.

    Do you put yourself at a disadvantage by playing a Ranger or Thief in a zerg? Yes. Do you put your entire team at a disadvantage by running these professions in a zerg? Yes. This doesn’t mean that they can’t be played. I just want to emphasize that they aren’t the optimal choice.

    They ARE the optimal choice. See second post. Just because your commander is lazy or you don't see why they are doesn't mean they aren't. I don't know why people have to be broken records and repeat this over and over. The META as defined by metabattle is incredibly narrow in its vision because it's providing a simple structure for newer players/comms to perform fights easily. What's VIABLE is filling your zerg with scourges and firebrands, and what might be the issue is that doing so with soulbeasts and druids isn't and that makes people sad. But putting rangers in your zerg is 100% certainly the optimal way to play it.

    Do you know what this does?
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Resistance

    Even better...have you ever faced a bunch of condi revs which are quite common in zergs these days?

    Can you please stop proposing a noob stomper gimmick as OPTIMAL build?

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @God.2708 said:

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I think the difficulty with having this discussion is the distinction between viable and meta. No one is saying that a Ranger or Thief can’t be successful in a zerg fight or have the best DPS. They just aren’t as effective or consistent as other professions.

    For example, imagine the worst case scenario. A fight with 50 vs 50 who are currently pirate shipping through a choke point. Due to the number of players there is a lot of AOE. The choke point prevents you from attacking edges to get closer. Projectile hate blocks or reflects most of your ranged attacks. A thief won’t be able to do much in this situation. A Ranger is limited to using Barrage and Druid staff attacks. This is why Elementalists, Necromancers, and Revenants are usually better damage options.

    Do you put yourself at a disadvantage by playing a Ranger or Thief in a zerg? Yes. Do you put your entire team at a disadvantage by running these professions in a zerg? Yes. This doesn’t mean that they can’t be played. I just want to emphasize that they aren’t the optimal choice.

    They ARE the optimal choice. See second post. Just because your commander is lazy or you don't see why they are doesn't mean they aren't. I don't know why people have to be broken records and repeat this over and over. The META as defined by metabattle is incredibly narrow in its vision because it's providing a simple structure for newer players/comms to perform fights easily. What's VIABLE is filling your zerg with scourges and firebrands, and what might be the issue is that doing so with soulbeasts and druids isn't and that makes people sad. But putting rangers in your zerg is 100% certainly the optimal way to play it.

    Do you know what this does?
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Resistance

    Even better...have you ever faced a bunch of condi revs which are quite common in zergs these days?

    Can you please stop proposing a noob stomper gimmick as OPTIMAL build?

    I haven't proposed any builds as optimal, just that they exist.

    I'm aware of what resistance does. It's almost like there's things in the game that get rid of it and prevent its application. It's ALMOST like proper team and party coordination results in much stronger effects than a stagnant composition with no diversity.

    Dagger brought up a 50v50 in a choke and how scourges would rock there. That's great. What do scourges do when there's siege on the t3 floor of SMC. It couldn't be nothing, right?

    It's nothing?

    Huh....

    Oh, what if there's an enemy with a banner staying at 1.5k range harassing your squad with skill 3s everytime you try to push. I bet the scourges have that totally covered.

    Right?

    Right...?

    The meta is currently defined by being the laziest way to succeed to a small degree because winning doesn't mean anything. If there was actually competition and you needed to pivot to handle lots of situations good rangers would be just as much a needed commodity, and the only thing stopping them from getting used is laziness/lack of motivation. Some of that is on Anet, some of that is on us. But it's not on the class balance.