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Ranger and Thief relegated to small scale...when others can both zerg and small scale fight

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  • ranger has atm the best burst in pvp after mesmer (yes, mesmer burst is still over the top in pvp.)
    this burst is even easier to pull off in WvW, way more easier than mesmer.
    arrow barrage (5 longbow) can deal more damage than necro wells. axe deal good aoe damage too. (5 axe deal really alot but you can't move so it is tricky)
    greatsword 2 has a longer reach than most melee weapon.
    frozen trap got too much nerfed tho.
    ranger (and thief) can zerg without any problem. you just need to adapt your build for that.
    piercing shots can hit alot of enemies if firing on a good target.

    right now you can transform your ranger into a pseudo warrior with soulbeast and its stance sharing. you can also increase for at least 7.5s boons duration by 20% (moa stance).
    of course a ranger will never be as good of a support as an elem or guard but druide is moçre than decent as healing and CC.

    you can do awesome, stupid combos with staff, axe/axe. dashing right in the enemy blob and spinning like crasy.
    imagine a focus party of 5-10 druides that charge right through the enemy bus to hit the ranged ones behind with 3 staff.

    soulbeast can also grab just like a guard but faster, around him and root... i could go on like this but i think you got the point.
    metabattle should opnly be an indication on the trend. not the actual way gw2 should be played. (unless you aim for high pve dps)
    are you sure you are a ranger main?

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Immob soulbeast and ranger are both accepted in most squads, just tell them you're running the right build instead of a roaming build. Staff daredevil is also accepted in most squads.

    slb isn't generally going to top damage, but that's a little different from doing the same damage as a support right? Even in good hands it falls somewhere in the middle of the pack. The immob bombs he's dropping though are evident in those clips, we can clip off 3-5 people per engage pretty reliably in the first 5s because they can't dodge the melee bomb. That sets our squad up to win rally wars =D

    Soulbeast does not have an immob build, do please play with the class before saying this kind of clueless things. Entangle is a 60s CD skill for god's sake.
    Druid on the other hand is the actual "immob" ranger thing you are referring to thanks to Ancient Seeds trait. Druid brings nothing else of consequence (not even noticeable heals) if it builds for immobilize.

    Immobilize builds are only a thing if your Firebrands, Scrappers, tempest and warriors aren't doing their job. With 300 conversions on average you should not feel any immob while playing.
    Immob builds are very annoying in small scale however.

    So as a ranger main you've never used muddy terrain, signet of the wild, or prelude lash then? You know, the things being used in the video I linked that show exactly how effective an immobeast can be?

    Bear stance and dolyak stance are top tier support skills in a zerg, dolyak stance in particular when it's in the tag's party since they're the ones most likely to get hit by immob/chill/cripple etc. during a push.

    Stance sharing is hot garbage right now. Until the Leader of the Pack can share the 100% duration with squad and not the 50% as until now, support soulbeast only shines in public zergs with very bad players. I have written a couple of forum posts with all the receipts you may ask for. One in Wvw another in the ranger subforum.

    So you want to buff the skill that already gives stab, -33% damage (which stacks with prot), and immunity to cripple/chill/immob? 30s cd isn't low enough, i get it. It should really only be a 20s CD so you can get a 50% uptime, then you won't have to get any better at playing your class!

    I can say that staff daredevil works fine, even when it's not something I get to play often:

    Daredevil can work in squad comps. The problem is the class is very unfun to play while doing that and brings absolutely nothing to the squad. Spamming Vault while pushing doesn't have any risks (because of the perma evasion) and brings very little rewards. And at the end again brings nothing for the rest of the squad so it doesn't make a case to be wanted or desired.

    Yeah, it's unfun to pogo stick your way through an enemy map queue. The reward is the spammable 10k vaults that flatten people.

    idk what else to tell you, i just linked videos of both classes performing admirably in a zerg setting. Again, if you aren't good enough at using them it's on you to improve rather than to cry for buffs.

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I think the difficulty with having this discussion is the distinction between viable and meta. No one is saying that a Ranger or Thief can’t be successful in a zerg fight or have the best DPS. They just aren’t as effective or consistent as other professions.

    For example, imagine the worst case scenario. A fight with 50 vs 50 who are currently pirate shipping through a choke point. Due to the number of players there is a lot of AOE. The choke point prevents you from attacking edges to get closer. Projectile hate blocks or reflects most of your ranged attacks. A thief won’t be able to do much in this situation. A Ranger is limited to using Barrage and Druid staff attacks. This is why Elementalists, Necromancers, and Revenants are usually better damage options.

    Do you put yourself at a disadvantage by playing a Ranger or Thief in a zerg? Yes. Do you put your entire team at a disadvantage by running these professions in a zerg? Yes. This doesn’t mean that they can’t be played. I just want to emphasize that they aren’t the optimal choice.

    It isn't meta to run 10 thieves or rangers, it is meta to run 1-2 of each if they're good and you have space in your squad.

    Lets use the 50v50 choke point fight as an example. Staff DD can shadowstep, go ham for 8s bounding and vaulting on their weavers/revs, then port back to safety while your group pushes. Now all their heavy dps classes are either behaving defensively, down, or ressing each other instead of nuking the choke. This allows your team to push through effectively.

    During that push, your soulbeasts can dolyak stance through. It should take <5s to push a choke, so the duration isn't a problem. Your party now has -33% damage that stacks with other DR effects, they're immune to immob, and you provide additional stab. Once on the other side your squad puts up a bubble (which stops resistance from being applied) and the slb starts to immob/CC to lock targets into your groups push. The downs you create in that first push allow you to rally anyone that didn't make it through the choke.

    If you're playing ranger with a longbow in a squad, you're using it wrong. Which is probably where 90% of the confusion in this thread is, ranger mains that want to pewpew and can't. Save the longbow for when you want to snipe from on top of a tower at 2k range, that way you can continue to congratulate yourselves on how skilled you are =D

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I think the difficulty with having this discussion is the distinction between viable and meta. No one is saying that a Ranger or Thief can’t be successful in a zerg fight or have the best DPS. They just aren’t as effective or consistent as other professions.

    For example, imagine the worst case scenario. A fight with 50 vs 50 who are currently pirate shipping through a choke point. Due to the number of players there is a lot of AOE. The choke point prevents you from attacking edges to get closer. Projectile hate blocks or reflects most of your ranged attacks. A thief won’t be able to do much in this situation. A Ranger is limited to using Barrage and Druid staff attacks. This is why Elementalists, Necromancers, and Revenants are usually better damage options.

    Do you put yourself at a disadvantage by playing a Ranger or Thief in a zerg? Yes. Do you put your entire team at a disadvantage by running these professions in a zerg? Yes. This doesn’t mean that they can’t be played. I just want to emphasize that they aren’t the optimal choice.

    The point of the thread is that other professions now have optimal builds both for zerging and small scale leaving ranger and thief relegated to just small scale, that's simply not fair and ofc....you will always people advocating against fairness as long as they get their way first.

    Both of these classes have optimal builds for zerging, the videos are linked already. The videos are of organized groups fighting each other. If you can't get results like that, it means that you aren't playing the class well and it is up to you to improve.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @God.2708 said:

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I think the difficulty with having this discussion is the distinction between viable and meta. No one is saying that a Ranger or Thief can’t be successful in a zerg fight or have the best DPS. They just aren’t as effective or consistent as other professions.

    For example, imagine the worst case scenario. A fight with 50 vs 50 who are currently pirate shipping through a choke point. Due to the number of players there is a lot of AOE. The choke point prevents you from attacking edges to get closer. Projectile hate blocks or reflects most of your ranged attacks. A thief won’t be able to do much in this situation. A Ranger is limited to using Barrage and Druid staff attacks. This is why Elementalists, Necromancers, and Revenants are usually better damage options.

    Do you put yourself at a disadvantage by playing a Ranger or Thief in a zerg? Yes. Do you put your entire team at a disadvantage by running these professions in a zerg? Yes. This doesn’t mean that they can’t be played. I just want to emphasize that they aren’t the optimal choice.

    They ARE the optimal choice. See second post. Just because your commander is lazy or you don't see why they are doesn't mean they aren't. I don't know why people have to be broken records and repeat this over and over. The META as defined by metabattle is incredibly narrow in its vision because it's providing a simple structure for newer players/comms to perform fights easily. What's VIABLE is filling your zerg with scourges and firebrands, and what might be the issue is that doing so with soulbeasts and druids isn't and that makes people sad. But putting rangers in your zerg is 100% certainly the optimal way to play it.

    Do you know what this does?
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Resistance

    Even better...have you ever faced a bunch of condi revs which are quite common in zergs these days?

    Can you please stop proposing a noob stomper gimmick as OPTIMAL build?

    Do you know what this is and what the boon priority is? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Absorption

    Even better, what groups are you fighting that stack condi revs instead of hammer revs? What experience do you actually have in zerg fighting, because from your responses on here it seems like you only engage in smallscale and "roaming", which is really just you hiding on top of a tower pewpewing from 2k range.

    If you were actually competent at using your 'main' class, you'd know all of this because you'd have tried it and succeeded. What it sounds like is you want things handed to you on a silver platter so you can autowin fights without having to improve your skill at all.

  • aaron.7850aaron.7850 Member ✭✭✭

    Since when can mesmers Zerg? They have no damage/healing, just utility... when other classes have both.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Since when can mesmers Zerg? They have no damage/healing, just utility... when other classes have both.

    Good thing that chronos are the top boon strippers right now and come with top notch utility and CC

  • aaron.7850aaron.7850 Member ✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Since when can mesmers Zerg? They have no damage/healing, just utility... when other classes have both.

    Good thing that chronos are the top boon strippers right now and come with top notch utility and CC

    Said no one.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Yeah, it's unfun to pogo stick your way through an enemy map queue. The reward is the spammable 10k vaults that flatten people.

    Dude, thank you for that mental image. Been chuckling at my desk for a few mins now lol :+1:

    @aaron.7850 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Since when can mesmers Zerg? They have no damage/healing, just utility... when other classes have both.

    Good thing that chronos are the top boon strippers right now and come with top notch utility and CC

    Said no one.

    Man, I know 3 different fight commanders who will command on Chrono, and use that profession to dictate the flow of the fight; and I'm willing to gamble 10,000 gold that they are far better at this game than you. Your disagreement on the usefulness of Chrono stems from your lack of knowledge, skill, and experience in GW2 WvW, and has nothing to do with class design or balance.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2020

    @God.2708 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @God.2708 said:

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I think the difficulty with having this discussion is the distinction between viable and meta. No one is saying that a Ranger or Thief can’t be successful in a zerg fight or have the best DPS. They just aren’t as effective or consistent as other professions.

    For example, imagine the worst case scenario. A fight with 50 vs 50 who are currently pirate shipping through a choke point. Due to the number of players there is a lot of AOE. The choke point prevents you from attacking edges to get closer. Projectile hate blocks or reflects most of your ranged attacks. A thief won’t be able to do much in this situation. A Ranger is limited to using Barrage and Druid staff attacks. This is why Elementalists, Necromancers, and Revenants are usually better damage options.

    Do you put yourself at a disadvantage by playing a Ranger or Thief in a zerg? Yes. Do you put your entire team at a disadvantage by running these professions in a zerg? Yes. This doesn’t mean that they can’t be played. I just want to emphasize that they aren’t the optimal choice.

    They ARE the optimal choice. See second post. Just because your commander is lazy or you don't see why they are doesn't mean they aren't. I don't know why people have to be broken records and repeat this over and over. The META as defined by metabattle is incredibly narrow in its vision because it's providing a simple structure for newer players/comms to perform fights easily. What's VIABLE is filling your zerg with scourges and firebrands, and what might be the issue is that doing so with soulbeasts and druids isn't and that makes people sad. But putting rangers in your zerg is 100% certainly the optimal way to play it.

    Do you know what this does?
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Resistance

    Even better...have you ever faced a bunch of condi revs which are quite common in zergs these days?

    Can you please stop proposing a noob stomper gimmick as OPTIMAL build?

    I haven't proposed any builds as optimal, just that they exist.

    I'm aware of what resistance does. It's almost like there's things in the game that get rid of it and prevent its application. It's ALMOST like proper team and party coordination results in much stronger effects than a stagnant composition with no diversity.

    Dagger brought up a 50v50 in a choke and how scourges would rock there. That's great. What do scourges do when there's siege on the t3 floor of SMC. It couldn't be nothing, right?

    It's nothing?

    Huh....

    Oh, what if there's an enemy with a banner staying at 1.5k range harassing your squad with skill 3s everytime you try to push. I bet the scourges have that totally covered.

    Right?

    Right...?

    The meta is currently defined by being the laziest way to succeed to a small degree because winning doesn't mean anything. If there was actually competition and you needed to pivot to handle lots of situations good rangers would be just as much a needed commodity, and the only thing stopping them from getting used is laziness/lack of motivation. Some of that is on Anet, some of that is on us. But it's not on the class balance.

    Do you know what is this?
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reflect

    I don't think you have a clear picture of the whole situation , do you realize that banners are normally picked by organized guilds whose members have like reached r3-4k?......Enough of this non-sense already

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    -snip-

    You have no idea what you're talking about, this is a complete non-sense

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @God.2708 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @God.2708 said:

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I think the difficulty with having this discussion is the distinction between viable and meta. No one is saying that a Ranger or Thief can’t be successful in a zerg fight or have the best DPS. They just aren’t as effective or consistent as other professions.

    For example, imagine the worst case scenario. A fight with 50 vs 50 who are currently pirate shipping through a choke point. Due to the number of players there is a lot of AOE. The choke point prevents you from attacking edges to get closer. Projectile hate blocks or reflects most of your ranged attacks. A thief won’t be able to do much in this situation. A Ranger is limited to using Barrage and Druid staff attacks. This is why Elementalists, Necromancers, and Revenants are usually better damage options.

    Do you put yourself at a disadvantage by playing a Ranger or Thief in a zerg? Yes. Do you put your entire team at a disadvantage by running these professions in a zerg? Yes. This doesn’t mean that they can’t be played. I just want to emphasize that they aren’t the optimal choice.

    They ARE the optimal choice. See second post. Just because your commander is lazy or you don't see why they are doesn't mean they aren't. I don't know why people have to be broken records and repeat this over and over. The META as defined by metabattle is incredibly narrow in its vision because it's providing a simple structure for newer players/comms to perform fights easily. What's VIABLE is filling your zerg with scourges and firebrands, and what might be the issue is that doing so with soulbeasts and druids isn't and that makes people sad. But putting rangers in your zerg is 100% certainly the optimal way to play it.

    Do you know what this does?
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Resistance

    Even better...have you ever faced a bunch of condi revs which are quite common in zergs these days?

    Can you please stop proposing a noob stomper gimmick as OPTIMAL build?

    I haven't proposed any builds as optimal, just that they exist.

    I'm aware of what resistance does. It's almost like there's things in the game that get rid of it and prevent its application. It's ALMOST like proper team and party coordination results in much stronger effects than a stagnant composition with no diversity.

    Dagger brought up a 50v50 in a choke and how scourges would rock there. That's great. What do scourges do when there's siege on the t3 floor of SMC. It couldn't be nothing, right?

    It's nothing?

    Huh....

    Oh, what if there's an enemy with a banner staying at 1.5k range harassing your squad with skill 3s everytime you try to push. I bet the scourges have that totally covered.

    Right?

    Right...?

    The meta is currently defined by being the laziest way to succeed to a small degree because winning doesn't mean anything. If there was actually competition and you needed to pivot to handle lots of situations good rangers would be just as much a needed commodity, and the only thing stopping them from getting used is laziness/lack of motivation. Some of that is on Anet, some of that is on us. But it's not on the class balance.

    Do you know what is this?
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reflect

    I don't think you have a clear picture of the whole situation , do you realize that banners are normally picked by organized guilds whose members have like reached r3-4k?......Enough of this non-sense already

    Maybe stop using a longbow and you'll get better results =D

    Also, literal video evidence of it working = nonsense? lmao. how about you learn how to use your 'main' instead of wasting your time on the forums

    @aaron.7850 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Since when can mesmers Zerg? They have no damage/healing, just utility... when other classes have both.

    Good thing that chronos are the top boon strippers right now and come with top notch utility and CC

    Said no one.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2020

    -snip-

    You're like a goldfish in a small bowl...who think to be king of the "ocean"...whatever you say pal

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    Do you know what is this?
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reflect

    I don't think you have a clear picture of the whole situation , do you realize that banners are normally picked by organized guilds whose members have like reached r3-4k?......Enough of this non-sense already

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

    Really not sure why I'm sitting here trying to wiki argue with you. None of this is new information, I didn't log onto a ranger and wonder why my own volley was hitting me in the face. Have some class here and stop assuming I'm an idiot.

    I know who picks up banners, I have killed them, multiple times in a day to the point of salty messages. There are videos in this topic explaining rangers purpose and use, and very VERY clear arguments on why they aren't a thing for the general pop in zergs despite being viable/optimal. If all you're going to do is post wiki links to game mechanics just close the topic.

    If you want to make an argument that Rangers builds for zergs have a much lower skill floor and it gives them a bad rap in WvW, I dig it. Interested in hearing a proposed solution to that problem because I think it's true. Your topic title as it stands though is misguided at best.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Dunno, but @God.2708 and @subversiontwo.7501 have offered plenty of insight on how and why ranger can be used in zergs, even if it's "offmeta" (personally, I always run offmeta builds even on scourge reaper etc). Their arguments are more than valid, hell I have been corrected more than once by them in the past in the forums and they made me see things differently (I thought I knew stuff, but guess what, I was wrong!).
    Nothing more to add, really. I am just happy to exchange opinions with people like the above-mentioned and get better, instead of bitter.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2020

    If we've reached the video posting stage now, just let me drop these here. When I've been bored or squads/tactics have been frustrating, in the past 2 years or so, I've been running something similar to what Crann or Kharturr runs in these two videos, but in/around 50-man pickups because the build basically cover all its bases itself. It may not be for the player who wants a tag to praise them in a squad or who is first starting out but these are clear examples of it being used in medium-large scale combat:

    It was also something like that I had in mind when I first started responding to this thread, even if the LB discussion has been fun and interesting as well.

    Build wise it's nothing special, it's just a normal BM boon-beast adapted for WvW stats where you can use Diviner with some Zerk pieces and in the prior burst-meta (last year) I mixed in some Commander pieces when I needed to get a double tank (carried both sets in the bags and just adapted to whatever damage the environment had, piece by piece, get a feel) over both toughness and protection. After the nerfs now, Diviner close to 100% boontime (don't overdo it) and then Zerk is well sufficient.

    Again, what's important here is the distinction between what works and what gets you appreciated in a squad. This doesn't necessarily do the latter, even if that is mostly due to commanders playing it safe and simple, but I mostly used it when I didn't want to play in a squad yet still with one.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    If we've reached the video posting stage now, just let me drop these here. When I've been bored or squads/tactics have been frustrating, in the past 2 years or so, I've been running something similar to what Crann or Kharturr runs in these two videos, but in/around 50-man pickups because the build basically cover all its bases itself. It may not be for the player who wants a tag to praise them in a squad or who is first starting out but these are clear examples of it being used in medium-large scale combat:

    It was also something like that I had in mind when I first started responding to this thread, even if the LB discussion has been fun and interesting as well.

    Build wise it's nothing special, it's just a normal BM boon-beast adapted for WvW stats where you can use Diviner with some Zerk pieces and in the prior burst-meta (last year) I mixed in some Commander pieces when I needed to get a double tank (carried both sets in the bags and just adapted to whatever damage the environment had, piece by piece, get a feel) over both toughness and protection. After the nerfs now, Diviner close to 100% boontime (don't overdo it) and then Zerk is well sufficient.

    GS/axe+axe has been "off-meta" for the last 4 years...off meta stuff is unpractical to use , the conditions to make it work are not always ready available, you need like a dedicated guild to keep you alive while you kamikaze on a pseudo berseker warrior build. Things become meta for a reason and that reason is why I made this thread to remind the devs for next elite development...rangers or thieves don't need another 1v1 build, never been interested in running any off meta stuff for the sake of using ranger during a zerg fight. In this thread I mention stuff which is missing and there is nothing open to interpretation

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @God.2708 said:

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I think the difficulty with having this discussion is the distinction between viable and meta. No one is saying that a Ranger or Thief can’t be successful in a zerg fight or have the best DPS. They just aren’t as effective or consistent as other professions.

    For example, imagine the worst case scenario. A fight with 50 vs 50 who are currently pirate shipping through a choke point. Due to the number of players there is a lot of AOE. The choke point prevents you from attacking edges to get closer. Projectile hate blocks or reflects most of your ranged attacks. A thief won’t be able to do much in this situation. A Ranger is limited to using Barrage and Druid staff attacks. This is why Elementalists, Necromancers, and Revenants are usually better damage options.

    Do you put yourself at a disadvantage by playing a Ranger or Thief in a zerg? Yes. Do you put your entire team at a disadvantage by running these professions in a zerg? Yes. This doesn’t mean that they can’t be played. I just want to emphasize that they aren’t the optimal choice.

    They ARE the optimal choice. See second post. Just because your commander is lazy or you don't see why they are doesn't mean they aren't. I don't know why people have to be broken records and repeat this over and over. The META as defined by metabattle is incredibly narrow in its vision because it's providing a simple structure for newer players/comms to perform fights easily. What's VIABLE is filling your zerg with scourges and firebrands, and what might be the issue is that doing so with soulbeasts and druids isn't and that makes people sad. But putting rangers in your zerg is 100% certainly the optimal way to play it.

    Do you know what this does?
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Resistance

    Even better...have you ever faced a bunch of condi revs which are quite common in zergs these days?

    Can you please stop proposing a noob stomper gimmick as OPTIMAL build?

    Do you know what this is and what the boon priority is? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Absorption

    Even better, what groups are you fighting that stack condi revs instead of hammer revs? What experience do you actually have in zerg fighting, because from your responses on here it seems like you only engage in smallscale and "roaming", which is really just you hiding on top of a tower pewpewing from 2k range.

    If you were actually competent at using your 'main' class, you'd know all of this because you'd have tried it and succeeded. What it sounds like is you want things handed to you on a silver platter so you can autowin fights without having to improve your skill at all.

    Low skill is everything you ever played here pal..from necro to burn guard....so I pewpew from the tower with a brown bear maybe...whatever makes you feel better

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2020

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    here is hope this time around these two professions will see a decent (not even asking for meta status) Zerg level of fight build and iteration
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    there never was any resemblance of compensation in the case of a semi-viable zerg build..
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    You make loads of assumptions without prior knowledge of the parties involved...your whole argument is based on assumptions...I don't make assumptions.
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    In this thread I mention stuff which is missing and there is nothing open to interpretation
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    On the forum everybody act like a God of PvP but it's quite easy in the end to dismantle their arguments
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Low skill is everything you ever played here pal..
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    You're like a goldfish in a small bowl...who think to be king of the "ocean"...whatever you say pal
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    you need like a dedicated guild to keep you alive while you kamikaze
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Where are these TOP dmg "immobilize soulbeast" and most of all.......where is your ranger?
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    ok...video pls...pls...PLEASE

    :3

    @me said:
    That is where myths, like that Rangers wouldn't have good weapons for larger-scale gameplay, starts to brew.
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    How is the lack of ranged aoe weapons a myth?

    [videos]

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    GS/axe+axe has been "off-meta" for the last 4 years...
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    stuff is unpractical to use

    :3

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    you need like a dedicated guild to keep you alive
    @me said
    I've been running [solo/havoc] in/around 50-man pickups because the build basically cover all its bases itself.

    :3

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Things become meta for a reason and that reason is why I made this thread to remind the devs for next elite development
    @me said
    It may not be for the player who wants a tag to praise them in a squad or who is first starting out but these are clear examples of it being used in medium-large scale combat
    @me said
    Again, what's important here is the distinction between what works and what gets you appreciated in a squad. This doesn't necessarily do the latter, even if that is mostly due to commanders playing it safe and simple

    :3

    Good talk, friend.

    Edit: Actually, let's real-talk and not just jaw here. If you were not so belligerent you would instead have spotted that people in this thread have already given you pretty good suggestions on how to make at least the Ranger more appealing to groups with suggestions that have involved better uptime on the Soulbeast's stances and better accessability to Celestial form for the Druid. These are good and topical suggestions to what you have asked for. People are not reacting to the notion that group-play improvements to Rangers would be unreasonable, they react to your argumentative behaviour or reasoning.

    I've even made threads like yours in the past (on the Ranger forums) talking about how it is a shame that Rangers lost their original group/support role from HoT when the devs changed Grace of the Land from % to might and removed the % glyph but kept the % spirit for PvE raids. Then part of that role was given to Warriors recently, who were not strapped for another role. Both Druid and Soulbeast could actually have pretty interesting roles over dmg-support + stances and dmg-support + stealth/heal support respectively. Again, those are simple and topical suggestions without the need to go into hyperbole or flail around at every other class.

  • Waffler.1257Waffler.1257 Member ✭✭✭

    I main ranger and don't see this as an issue, zerging is a brain dead and boring style of play, the issue lies with the fact that zerging is currently the most effective way to win WvW. Hopefully, the WvW restructuring (assuming they are still working on it) is actually a restructuring and fundamentally changes how WvW is played to be more dynamic and engaging, encouraging both small tactical group play as well as sieges by large groups of players.

  • Zacchary.6183Zacchary.6183 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I've been messing around with Choking Gas, using it to interrupt players in front of the enemy blob to keep them from pulling and what not. One time I was in a blob with another shortbow DrD and both of us were using Choking Gas on the edge of the enemy blob who was about 50% larger than the group we were in. This was a fight on SMC's outer wall and they had two sections down. Every time someone got into the choke points we would shoot one into it. Half the time the players didn't know they were dazed and lingered for a second. As the Impacting Disruption went off, they would get pelted with stuff and sometimes would get downed. We also used it on those trying to res to great effect, combined with others providing the damage.

    I really wish it didn't cost so much though.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    I've been messing around with Choking Gas, using it to interrupt players in front of the enemy blob to keep them from pulling and what not. One time I was in a blob with another shortbow DrD and both of us were using Choking Gas on the edge of the enemy blob who was about 50% larger than the group we were in. This was a fight on SMC's outer wall and they had two sections down. Every time someone got into the choke points we would shoot one into it. Half the time the players didn't know they were dazed and lingered for a second. As the Impacting Disruption went off, they would get pelted with stuff and sometimes would get downed. We also used it on those trying to res to great effect, combined with others providing the damage.

    I really wish it didn't cost so much though.

    I like the old version of CG even if the daze pulse was gradual instead of instant. It's a little rough budgeting for CG and Infiltrators Arrow for blind which will siphon life with Cloaked in Shadow but since CG is instant now I get it but I wish one or the other was cheaper. Boon and Life steal from interrupts, blinds, and whatever else from a few sources can help slowly flip a drive along with shortbow blast and can flip it faster if you burst drain the right person fast enough. More targets is more sustaining but you have to watch them and look around to feel all the plotting going on or you'll get focused and locked up.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Zacchary.6183Zacchary.6183 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    I've been messing around with Choking Gas, using it to interrupt players in front of the enemy blob to keep them from pulling and what not. One time I was in a blob with another shortbow DrD and both of us were using Choking Gas on the edge of the enemy blob who was about 50% larger than the group we were in. This was a fight on SMC's outer wall and they had two sections down. Every time someone got into the choke points we would shoot one into it. Half the time the players didn't know they were dazed and lingered for a second. As the Impacting Disruption went off, they would get pelted with stuff and sometimes would get downed. We also used it on those trying to res to great effect, combined with others providing the damage.

    I really wish it didn't cost so much though.

    I like the old version of CG even if the daze pulse was gradual instead of instant. It's a little rough budgeting for CG and Infiltrators Arrow for blind which will siphon life with Cloaked in Shadow but since CG is instant now I get it but I wish one or the other was cheaper. Boon and Life steal from interrupts, blinds, and whatever else from a few sources can help slowly flip a drive along with shortbow blast and can flip it faster if you burst drain the right person fast enough. More targets is more sustaining but you have to watch them and look around to feel all the plotting going on or you'll get focused and locked up.

    Oh yeah, I know. I currently am using Speed runes and dash to keep mobility up and Sigils of Draining and Restoration for added healing. You can seriously outrun a lot of people with them and it adds a little extra survivability.

  • Dagger.2035Dagger.2035 Member ✭✭✭

    I believe Rangers are viable but I don’t see how people can claim they are optimal. WvW is over saturated with people playing Ranger so the best advice is to try out another profession. The scenario I provided happens all of the time in WvW to a varying degree. In the scenarios provided to argue for Rangers, the Ranger can be simply replaced with an arrow cart or ballista.

    Server: Sorrow's Furnace
    Guilds: [DOA] Descendants Of Ascalon, [LOOT] Legendary Order Of Thieves
    Characters: Black Hooded Guardian, Necromancer, Thief, etc.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    here is hope this time around these two professions will see a decent (not even asking for meta status) Zerg level of fight build and iteration
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    there never was any resemblance of compensation in the case of a semi-viable zerg build..
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    You make loads of assumptions without prior knowledge of the parties involved...your whole argument is based on assumptions...I don't make assumptions.
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    In this thread I mention stuff which is missing and there is nothing open to interpretation
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    On the forum everybody act like a God of PvP but it's quite easy in the end to dismantle their arguments
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Low skill is everything you ever played here pal..
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    You're like a goldfish in a small bowl...who think to be king of the "ocean"...whatever you say pal
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    you need like a dedicated guild to keep you alive while you kamikaze
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Where are these TOP dmg "immobilize soulbeast" and most of all.......where is your ranger?
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    ok...video pls...pls...PLEASE

    :3

    @me said:
    That is where myths, like that Rangers wouldn't have good weapons for larger-scale gameplay, starts to brew.
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    How is the lack of ranged aoe weapons a myth?

    [videos]

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    GS/axe+axe has been "off-meta" for the last 4 years...
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    stuff is unpractical to use

    :3

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    you need like a dedicated guild to keep you alive
    @me said
    I've been running [solo/havoc] in/around 50-man pickups because the build basically cover all its bases itself.

    :3

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Things become meta for a reason and that reason is why I made this thread to remind the devs for next elite development
    @me said
    It may not be for the player who wants a tag to praise them in a squad or who is first starting out but these are clear examples of it being used in medium-large scale combat
    @me said
    Again, what's important here is the distinction between what works and what gets you appreciated in a squad. This doesn't necessarily do the latter, even if that is mostly due to commanders playing it safe and simple

    :3

    Good talk, friend.

    Edit: Actually, let's real-talk and not just jaw here. If you were not so belligerent you would instead have spotted that people in this thread have already given you pretty good suggestions on how to make at least the Ranger more appealing to groups with suggestions that have involved better uptime on the Soulbeast's stances and better accessability to Celestial form for the Druid. These are good and topical suggestions to what you have asked for. People are not reacting to the notion that group-play improvements to Rangers would be unreasonable, they react to your argumentative behaviour or reasoning.

    I've even made threads like yours in the past (on the Ranger forums) talking about how it is a shame that Rangers lost their original group/support role from HoT when the devs changed Grace of the Land from % to might and removed the % glyph but kept the % spirit for PvE raids. Then part of that role was given to Warriors recently, who were not strapped for another role. Both Druid and Soulbeast could actually have pretty interesting roles over dmg-support + stances and dmg-support + stealth/heal support respectively. Again, those are simple and topical suggestions without the need to go into hyperbole or flail around at every other class.

    The people you are referring to really , started the discussion by reminiscing all the time they got singled out by a ranger and for that they would not require improvements to group play presence.

    @KrHome.1920 : A good roaming experience is about picking your targets and minimizing situations where you can be overwhelmed by numbers.

    A thief does only die, when he wants to. He can escape from a 50 man blob with two skills and not even another thief can stop him.

    And if you have a good terrain awareness, then ranger is the king of roaming due to its range and mobility.

    And

    @Dawdler.8521 :
    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    It's not possible anymore to use the same excuse: best roamer because simply speaking they're not

    Except they still are. Neither class has any excuse. Especially not the thief as they still enjoy permastealth.

    Also there is a reason GW2 doesnt have so many limitations on your "main". You are meant to play different classes. So pick another if you want a specific purpose. As you >say - almost all of them can do it.

    I am not the "villain" here, I've made a case of how other professions excelling in small scale currently and do so without taking that many risks like the ones you propose. A necro player can go "whatever scourge" for zerg fight and then opt for a "never die core necro" later when the zerg activity ends. I am asking for equality of effort , I refuse to take any risk or put effort for as long as things like core necro -scourge and reaper - burn guardian exist in this game

    Exactly 5 days ago gave my guardian a spin by using core burn guardian with swords of justice and "purging flames" with a staff...I was netting 30-40 bags per hour while rotating between 2-3 on staff, SoJ spammed off CD and some scepter symbol spamm

    But here you are..suggesting that rangers or thieves should run some glass melee bomb with dubious team utility running the risk of being one shotted by condi/power burst the second they run out of escapes and the support cuts short. Where is the fairness here? Ahhhh ....yes .....guardians "can't roam"...really?

    What about burn DH ? A simple Spear of Justice+JI followed by symbol of blades and zealot's flame is enough to insta down 80% of your average ranger/thief roaming population. I can do a similar case with all other professions minus ele/warrior which I stopped using because I was too irritated of facing monkey classes like necro

    I will agree to play something that requires effort in this game..when they will remove : F1-5-4 spin to win and the 1-5 1200/900 range spam to win faceroll, also the signets ameba build

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I believe Rangers are viable but I don’t see how people can claim they are optimal. WvW is over saturated with people playing Ranger so the best advice is to try out another profession. The scenario I provided happens all of the time in WvW to a varying degree. In the scenarios provided to argue for Rangers, the Ranger can be simply replaced with an arrow cart or ballista.

    What other professions?

    Ele? You go around with 2400 power , 210 crit dmg and 54% crit chance + full attunement bonus..and your meteor storm, your hardest hitting skill that roots you ....get absorbed by some 10k worth of barrier spamm coming from monkey class....but hey it's fun to be super glass for nothing when you can be oneshotted by anything that sneeze in your direction......

    Warrior? Slog through a sea of red circles to deliver the BUBBLE hoping not to die in the process...only for the boons to be reapplied soon after

    Saturated with rangers?..Outside the occasional PvE guild that strolls around 3am with that odd couple of bearbow....I see no saturation of rangers.

    Out there 4/5 times I will be facing either a burn guardian or a condi rev or a variant of necro, then I face gank guilds made up of..guess what...burn guardians, condi revs and necros...there are necros literally behind every boulder in wvw

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I believe Rangers are viable but I don’t see how people can claim they are optimal. WvW is over saturated with people playing Ranger so the best advice is to try out another profession. The scenario I provided happens all of the time in WvW to a varying degree. In the scenarios provided to argue for Rangers, the Ranger can be simply replaced with an arrow cart or ballista.

    I've explained how they are optimal. You closing your ears and not addressing the points doesn't make them magically vanish. I'm sorry they aren't listed on metabattle so you have an easy time discerning what is good and what isn't.

  • Dagger.2035Dagger.2035 Member ✭✭✭

    I feel like my points are being ignored as well. I think we will just have to agree that we disagree.

    Server: Sorrow's Furnace
    Guilds: [DOA] Descendants Of Ascalon, [LOOT] Legendary Order Of Thieves
    Characters: Black Hooded Guardian, Necromancer, Thief, etc.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Junkpile.7439 said:
    I don't really understand what is the problem. Ranger have soulbeast and thief have daredevil. Both are broken specs that can do everything.

    Even core ranger calling spikes on same target its a devastating tactic.... specially when it cames with quickness.

    @Arheundel.6451
    Next ranger weapon wil be a mlee to medium range weapon with summons ... expect a hammer.

    @God.2708
    Rangers should be doing what they do best wich is skirmishing, call spikesm and "ranging" backline, issue is people and builsd are designed for omniblobs mentality due how simplistic and noobs friendly zergy and spammy game gets, also with the expectation of lower effort.

  • Crazy.6029Crazy.6029 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I believe Rangers are viable but I don’t see how people can claim they are optimal. WvW is over saturated with people playing Ranger so the best advice is to try out another profession. The scenario I provided happens all of the time in WvW to a varying degree. In the scenarios provided to argue for Rangers, the Ranger can be simply replaced with an arrow cart or ballista.

    What other professions?

    .there are necros literally behind every boulder in wvw

    This made me LoL, going in game to check right right now and heading to the first boulder :)

    Let's nerf everything, so that we don't need any skill to play.
    The Truth sometimes hurts but it is good for you.

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Junkpile.7439 said:
    I don't really understand what is the problem. Ranger have soulbeast and thief have daredevil. Both are broken specs that can do everything.

    Even core ranger calling spikes on same target its a devastating tactic.... specially when it cames with quickness.

    @Arheundel.6451
    Next ranger weapon wil be a mlee to medium range weapon with summons ... expect a hammer.

    @God.2708
    Rangers should be doing what they do best wich is skirmishing and ranging backline, issue is people and builsd are designed for omniblobs mentality due how simplintics and spammy game gets, also with the expectation of lower effort.

    I feel like we play two different games. Can you post a video of your overpowered ranger that's broken and can do everything? I don't agree with everything the OP says as a ranger main myself, but it does need improvement for group utility in zergs - slight adjustments to SLB stances (allied duration) and/or druid can achieve this.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Strider.7849 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Junkpile.7439 said:
    I don't really understand what is the problem. Ranger have soulbeast and thief have daredevil. Both are broken specs that can do everything.

    Even core ranger calling spikes on same target its a devastating tactic.... specially when it cames with quickness.

    @Arheundel.6451
    Next ranger weapon wil be a mlee to medium range weapon with summons ... expect a hammer.

    @God.2708
    Rangers should be doing what they do best wich is skirmishing and ranging backline, issue is people and builsd are designed for omniblobs mentality due how simplintics and spammy game gets, also with the expectation of lower effort.

    I feel like we play two different games. Can you post a video of your overpowered ranger that's broken and can do everything? I don't agree with everything the OP says as a ranger main myself, but it does need improvement for group utility in zergs - slight adjustments to SLB stances (allied duration) and/or druid can achieve this.

    404 overpower ranger not found in my comment, but its still a issue within the players, i never said ranger is OP lol... my builds actually tend to force them to blow unblcokables or countering them while in range.

    Btw.. Druid is nice for zerg and larger gameplay, and u speak about improvement, yes skills of druid are nice but e feel somehting is laking atm i can imagine some improvements outside avatar form, core ranger support should be about team work and spike range pressure IT WORKS well in small scale in the hands o somewhat decent players clouding others, for some minimal support healign spring is an amazing skill, if the class cant fart boons left and right for the blob meta doesnt meant that the class is bad, thats just the blob meta wanting some class to stack and get carried w/o worring to who and when they need the boons.

    Altough whenever Anet makes core ranger better it wil alwys boosting druid and beastmaster further, if palyers want to have a decent range class feel on core... anet would had to add a elite trait for core, this way balance would be more achievable w/o interfering on other elites.

    edit:
    Note: beasmaster is a issue cause its a direct upgrade from core, IMO this 2 designs are conflicting reason i would not worry if Anet added elite spec trait for core classes.

    Note2: other OP issue m8 be that every one is moving towards condi tanking optimization with misntrel suporters where OP feel is lossing the pressude and spike damage against so much sustain and condi bomb.

    Note3: OP complained about resistance, i hope OP isnt one of those only condi ranger expecting to kill something that counters it...last ime i fough a only condi ranger with a high resistance toon, that player tried with more condi damage fiends rather than bring power... it didnt resulted well for them, since they were moving so much i didnt needed to use all by skills :\, i think u know how torment works... many even move more >_>.

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider.7849 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Junkpile.7439 said:
    I don't really understand what is the problem. Ranger have soulbeast and thief have daredevil. Both are broken specs that can do everything.

    Even core ranger calling spikes on same target its a devastating tactic.... specially when it cames with quickness.

    @Arheundel.6451
    Next ranger weapon wil be a mlee to medium range weapon with summons ... expect a hammer.

    @God.2708
    Rangers should be doing what they do best wich is skirmishing and ranging backline, issue is people and builsd are designed for omniblobs mentality due how simplintics and spammy game gets, also with the expectation of lower effort.

    I feel like we play two different games. Can you post a video of your overpowered ranger that's broken and can do everything? I don't agree with everything the OP says as a ranger main myself, but it does need improvement for group utility in zergs - slight adjustments to SLB stances (allied duration) and/or druid can achieve this.

    I want to see that OP ranger too.. I have seen a good one in a gvg video, but not sure I would say it was OP.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    I feel like my points are being ignored as well. I think we will just have to agree that we disagree.

    I dislike that, and reading back through my comments I realize most of mine are snark, so here is my attempt at giving a fair shake of an explanation.

    @Arheundel.6451
    This is mostly a reminder to Anet with the upcoming 3rd expansion, there is hope this time around these two professions will see a decent (not even asking for meta status) Zerg level of fight build and iteration

    Was the opening sentence. So when you bring up

    I believe Rangers are viable but I don’t see how people can claim they are optimal.

    later in the conversation, this strikes me as semantics over definitions that you yourself are not clearly defining and also not what the OP was arguing for in the first place.

    So to clarify here, because I don't think people really understand what drives things in WvW. The chosen "Meta", which I'm going to use as the Most Efficient Tactic Available acronym though I hate it, does not include rangers or thieves typically. We now have to make a subtle but important distinction that most people either don't recognize they are making or actively choose to ignore. The Meta optimizes for something. That something is not fighting. It is not zerging. It optimizes for what generates kills easiest in a given environment because WvW lacks any other external motivators and the lowest layer becomes a "PvP Sandbox".

    This is important because when Player A like the OP claims that thieves or rangers do not have viable zerging builds and then points to the current state of WvW, they are not pointing to evidence that actually supports their claim. If I point to a server that is known for clouding around SMC with tons of random supports/roaming builds to the point no one likes fighting them, and say 'look they have 10 rangers in their blob, Rangers zerg fine!' I haven't made a clear argument supporting what my actual issue is: Rangers don't fit well into the party/squad system. Likewise if I point to a different server that runs a single tag because the entire server only has one commander and their zerg is 25 firebrands and 25 scourges, I haven't really made a point either. Maybe that commander only knows how to play those two classes and knows that they work at killing people well enough.

    So when you say something like 'Rangers are viable but not optimal' the first thing you have to do is clarify what you want them optimized for, or no one can properly address your point. You brought up the 50v50 choke situation, and I countered with two situations that scourges are certainly not optimized for but Rangers can be. Ballistas could in fact do it better in theory, but they take time to build. And frankly ACs/Ballistas would handle a choke better than a scourge would so that isn't really a fair thing to bring in to begin with.

    There are plenty of people however who have pointed out that Rangers, at the very least, have perfectly functional builds in a zerg. They may even be considered optimal in certain situations. It isn't 2012 where bearbows are memeing about in towers. The ability to do something like drop a prelude lash in the middle of a friendly bubble ensuring multiple enemies get locked down and killed is a form of AoE pick that the post Feb balance patch and the big hit to damage made exceptionally valuable. Having an intelligent ranger in your squad who can create a 1.5k range zone of death to keep harassing thieves/weavers/banner carriers/kamikaze warriors/whatever with their longbow is equally valuable in a fight where one of those jumping the squad can throw several people off tempo and result in a fight starting poorly and thus resulting in your defeat.

    As I've said repeatedly, the fact that these things aren't acknowledged are an issue with the mode and what is incentivized in it by Anet, and commanders being afraid of change and trying to not shake the boat with their builds because they are few and have a hard enough job as is. It has very very little to do with the class balance itself and what elite specializations it has. The class -in the roles it has carved out- could be improved, but pretending those roles don't exist or 'aren't good enough' is semantics at best and dishonest at worst.

    The topic is full of comments implicitly stating what is -wanted- is that rangers have a build that fits into every 5 man party like guardian or necro does. But then explicitly asks for things like you said which is for rangers to be viable or optimal. The people I would like Anet to listen to see this and call it for what it is, which is 'We don't like every party having a Kitten Necro, and Rangers can fit into a zerg exactly how we wish every class would fit into a zerg, with an intentional role that works inside a team/party framework'. There is a reason scourge keeps getting nerfed to death and people keep complaining about it. But no one wants Ranger to become the next scourge. Clarify Scourges niche, healthily improve Ranger inside the one it already has.

    In my ideal version of WvW, the blob departs from this concept of '5 man same parties' (though I acknowledge that makes managing the zergs logitistics easier) and shifts into 'Well if I have X and Y in this party, I want to play W or Z' and it becomes a nice little game of tetris working out which builds should slot with which, and at the end you have a nice 30 man zerg full of 5 man sets of different builds. ARGUABLY that is the state of the game right now to a degree that just doesn't get explored due to a cynical player base. Ranger does exactly that right now, thus IMO it is optimal and viable. Scourge does more than that so whilst it might be Optimal in a certain situation everyone takes advantage of, it is not optimal in a way I would want Ranger (or thief) to be.

  • Substance E.4852Substance E.4852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    Dunno, but @God.2708 and @subversiontwo.7501 have offered plenty of insight on how and why ranger can be used in zergs, even if it's "offmeta" (personally, I always run offmeta builds even on scourge reaper etc). Their arguments are more than valid, hell I have been corrected more than once by them in the past in the forums and they made me see things differently (I thought I knew stuff, but guess what, I was wrong!).
    Nothing more to add, really. I am just happy to exchange opinions with people like the above-mentioned and get better, instead of bitter.

    It's just the same old copes about how Ranger isn't totally useless therefor it's """viable"""

    Meanwhile, the class is still out gunned in virtually everything it offers by other classes such that no one will ever ask someone to "switch to ranger"

    Even using them for pin sniping is largely useless after Anet changed "unblockable" to a charge system

    There's a big difference bewteen "not total garbage" and "worth taking over another class"

    Even the best possible SB set up is still worse than just spamming Rev hammer into a zerg just as Druid has never been better than other support classes

  • Megastorm.6219Megastorm.6219 Member ✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    I have been using this setup on my core ranger. I use it to tag up, and frontline push as well as snipe and finish downs while following a tag. Ranger Core (Evasion Roamer / Commander) The link has full ascended version, I use exotic Power Toughness Vitality armor/weapons, and ascended wanderer trinkets due to ease of farming them on LS3 maps. You can use full exotic P/T/V gear from the WvW token merchants and build this setup on a budget, which works great.
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POwAwiVlFw8YhMM2JW0OqJwSe1KA-zVJYnR3/Z0jUNTVlL/Aiywtl9/0A-w
    I don't have any footage of how evasive this build is in my 1v2 morning bean water runs. It is satisfyingly fun to evade and push your way to their backline and setup condition spread as you ready for a flanking maneuver when the zerg ball dodges behind you for your back push. This build spreads decent condi with cover condi, which gives you all the credit you need for your sigils to do their magic. I enjoy the gameplay style of this build, but I can understand it might not be everyone's hotrod they're used to using for the tag, pusher, and roamer races. Feel free to hit me up or ignore it. Good luck out there ranger roamers and tags. Coooobraaaa! ;) Que the Suicidal Tendencies- You Can't Bring Me Down

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    They need to nerf the amount of blocks + reflect being pooped out. Its the main reason aoe is still king because theres no reflect on it neither and reflects are being thrown out forever.

  • @Caedmon.6798 said:
    They need to nerf the amount of blocks + reflect being pooped out. Its the main reason aoe is still king because theres no reflect on it neither and reflects are being thrown out forever.

    lets make a new ability => a cleansed ground that dispel any AOE in its aoe.. :)

  • @anduriell.6280 said:
    Soulbeast does not have an immob build, do please play with the class before saying this kind of clueless things. Entangle is a 60s CD skill for god's sake.

    You sure about that?

  • @Arheundel.6451 said:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/WvW

    This is mostly a reminder to Anet with the upcoming 3rd expansion, there is hope this time around these two professions will see a decent (not even asking for meta status) Zerg level of fight build and iteration, I am suggesting this because at this point all other professions enjoy both a zerg and small group presence...all except ranger and thief, been like this since launch.

    sure, and give us a totally untouchable, high damage, no risk, high reward elementalist spec, while you are at it, ANET. You did it for thief, ranger and mesmer.

    And since you made revs and engis better in zergs... time to get down and DO something.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    So as a ranger main you've never used muddy terrain, signet of the wild, or prelude lash then? You know, the things being used in the video I linked that show exactly how effective an immobeast can be?

    Look if you get immob'd in any skill with 1-2s arming time with a very clear animation and 30s cd and you come here to complain you really need a break of the game.
    I stopped reading there.
    And no, no main ranger will take those skills because completely destroy the sustain and brings nothing to the table. Now you if you are talking about meme noob stomper then yeah, but again anything works for that.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    So as a ranger main you've never used muddy terrain, signet of the wild, or prelude lash then? You know, the things being used in the video I linked that show exactly how effective an immobeast can be?

    Look if you get immob'd in any skill with 1-2s arming time with a very clear animation and 30s cd and you come here to complain you really need a break of the game.
    I stopped reading there.
    And no, no main ranger will take those skills because completely destroy the sustain and brings nothing to the table. Now you if you are talking about meme noob stomper then yeah, but again anything works for that.

    Look. There are videos in this topic presenting factual live evidence of those skills performing in the situations we are saying they perform in. Against players I am certain are better than you are. There's no need to get theoretical about 'no main ranger will take those skills' or 'meme noob stompers'. It's right there. Try reading a little further and maybe you can productively add something to the discussion because this is disappointing.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    So as a ranger main you've never used muddy terrain, signet of the wild, or prelude lash then? You know, the things being used in the video I linked that show exactly how effective an immobeast can be?

    Look if you get immob'd in any skill with 1-2s arming time with a very clear animation and 30s cd and you come here to complain you really need a break of the game.
    I stopped reading there.
    And no, no main ranger will take those skills because completely destroy the sustain and brings nothing to the table. Now you if you are talking about meme noob stomper then yeah, but again anything works for that.

    Look. There are videos in this topic presenting factual live evidence of those skills performing in the situations we are saying they perform in. Against players I am certain are better than you are. There's no need to get theoretical about 'no main ranger will take those skills' or 'meme noob stompers'. It's right there. Try reading a little further and maybe you can productively add something to the discussion because this is disappointing.

    Second account?
    Anyway if they get caught in moody terrain (its moody because it makes the ranger sad when he equips that) while fighting the ranger (not a surpise attack) they aren't better than the mayority of the players 100% confirmed as they can't even outplay pve mechanics at this point.

    Also I did add somethign productive, i gave you a very valid reason why those skills aren't used, apparently you skipped that one. Self awarenes 0 it seems.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @God.2708 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    So as a ranger main you've never used muddy terrain, signet of the wild, or prelude lash then? You know, the things being used in the video I linked that show exactly how effective an immobeast can be?

    Look if you get immob'd in any skill with 1-2s arming time with a very clear animation and 30s cd and you come here to complain you really need a break of the game.
    I stopped reading there.
    And no, no main ranger will take those skills because completely destroy the sustain and brings nothing to the table. Now you if you are talking about meme noob stomper then yeah, but again anything works for that.

    Look. There are videos in this topic presenting factual live evidence of those skills performing in the situations we are saying they perform in. Against players I am certain are better than you are. There's no need to get theoretical about 'no main ranger will take those skills' or 'meme noob stompers'. It's right there. Try reading a little further and maybe you can productively add something to the discussion because this is disappointing.

    Second account?
    Anyway if they get caught in moody terrain (its moody because it makes the ranger sad when he equips that) while fighting the ranger (not a surpise attack) they aren't better than the mayority of the players 100% confirmed as they can't even outplay pve mechanics at this point.

    Also I did add somethign productive, i gave you a very valid reason why those skills aren't used, apparently you skipped that one. Self awarenes 0 it seems.

    For the people reading that aren't this guy. This is an example of what he is saying being wrong. It is not the only example (and more examples strengthen a claim), but given the weight of his claim amounting to a tiny bit more than waving an anti-charr protest board in the middle the vabbi desert I feel comfortable saying that he is wrong.

    For you, I didn't skip it. I told you exactly where to look to see that you were incorrect. I've got a step further now and copied and pasted the video so hopefully you don't skip it again. If you need time stamps please let me know. If you are talking about ranger roaming builds well... that's not what the topic is talking about, but I agree it would be a silly thing to take.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    So as a ranger main you've never used muddy terrain, signet of the wild, or prelude lash then? You know, the things being used in the video I linked that show exactly how effective an immobeast can be?

    Look if you get immob'd in any skill with 1-2s arming time with a very clear animation and 30s cd and you come here to complain you really need a break of the game.
    I stopped reading there.
    And no, no main ranger will take those skills because completely destroy the sustain and brings nothing to the table. Now you if you are talking about meme noob stomper then yeah, but again anything works for that.

    you very clearly have no idea how large scale fights work lol

    that's 100% the problem here, you want to generalize your knowledge of small scale and 1v1s to large scale fights where there's 20-50 active incoming skills every second. muddy terrain is essentially a well, 240 radius at 900 range. Wells are highly effective in large scale fights and almost useless in small scale/1v1s, which is why you don't understand how effective a skill that immobs 5 people for 3s and covers it with pulsing slow and cripple is. It sounds like you don't understand how that would synergize with every necro dropping their wells in the same place?

  • @anduriell.6280 said:
    Also I did add somethign productive, i gave you a very valid reason why those skills aren't used, apparently you skipped that one.

    You gave pretty much nothing. Staff4 for the Guardian has a long Cast Time, a clear Animation and it roots yourself while casting. And it is still a very valuable Skill for Guards, because in a sea of 50 bodies none of your "valid reasons" matter. The ImmobRanger is a viable build that is welome in most squads. It is perhaps a bit boring to play, but it certainly is not worse than playing a "Veil Bot".

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @God.2708 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    So as a ranger main you've never used muddy terrain, signet of the wild, or prelude lash then? You know, the things being used in the video I linked that show exactly how effective an immobeast can be?

    Look if you get immob'd in any skill with 1-2s arming time with a very clear animation and 30s cd and you come here to complain you really need a break of the game.
    I stopped reading there.
    And no, no main ranger will take those skills because completely destroy the sustain and brings nothing to the table. Now you if you are talking about meme noob stomper then yeah, but again anything works for that.

    Look. There are videos in this topic presenting factual live evidence of those skills performing in the situations we are saying they perform in. Against players I am certain are better than you are. There's no need to get theoretical about 'no main ranger will take those skills' or 'meme noob stompers'. It's right there. Try reading a little further and maybe you can productively add something to the discussion because this is disappointing.

    Second account?
    Anyway if they get caught in moody terrain (its moody because it makes the ranger sad when he equips that) while fighting the ranger (not a surpise attack) they aren't better than the mayority of the players 100% confirmed as they can't even outplay pve mechanics at this point.

    Also I did add somethign productive, i gave you a very valid reason why those skills aren't used, apparently you skipped that one. Self awarenes 0 it seems.

    For the people reading that aren't this guy. This is an example of what he is saying being wrong. It is not the only example (and more examples strengthen a claim), but given the weight of his claim amounting to a tiny bit more than waving an anti-charr protest board in the middle the vabbi desert I feel comfortable saying that he is wrong.

    For you, I didn't skip it. I told you exactly where to look to see that you were incorrect. I've got a step further now and copied and pasted the video so hopefully you don't skip it again. If you need time stamps please let me know. If you are talking about ranger roaming builds well... that's not what the topic is talking about, but I agree it would be a silly thing to take.

    25k hp, hit +8k and chilling in red circles. Balanced. =)

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • Dagger.2035Dagger.2035 Member ✭✭✭

    My problem with the video is that it doesn't prove that a ranger is good at zerging since it is only 14 vs 14. The damage is mediocre compared to what other professions can do from range. If you want to see decent melee damage you should look at what a good Reaper or Berserker can do.

    Server: Sorrow's Furnace
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    Characters: Black Hooded Guardian, Necromancer, Thief, etc.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    My problem with the video is that it doesn't prove that a ranger is good at zerging since it is only 14 vs 14. The damage is mediocre compared to what other professions can do from range. If you want to see decent melee damage you should look at what a good Reaper or Berserker can do.

    Okay. So. Here's a video of 20+ fighting a variety of numbers. It does plenty of damage, hurts and kills things, and does things a berserker and reaper can't (namely, pulls and immobilizes people in bubbles, and prevents their party from being immobilized).

    What is your next goalpost going to be?