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mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

Hi Anet,
I play a lot of WvW as part of my regular activities in this game. It's not the only mode I play, I do a fair bit of PvE. I play WvW because it's fun, I play it because the buildcraft is more interesting to me. I play it for the social element, I play it for a lot of reasons.
But I certainly have never played it for the rewards. The game mode has historically been the least rewarding of the three, and I am ok with that. I think every WvW player makes their peace with this pretty early on.

In just over a year two very lucrative PvE maps have been added to the game that have been responsible for a noticeable devaluation of crafting materials.The introduction of Dragonfall and Drizzlewood Coast have changed the economy.
While that's great and all for players making weapons and armor, it certainly has diminished my returns in terms of rewards vs time spent in WvW. The majority of what are passed out as rewards in WvW are indeed crafting materials or junk gear that is salavged into mats... mats we sell for gold. And while these rewards haave increased drastically for open world PvE players, there has been no adjustment to the rewards in WvW.

This post is absolutely not a criticism of the current base design.
It's clearly intended and I do not pretend to know the impact on game better than people with real data who's livelihoods depend on the game. PvE players generally seem happy with the lower prices for crafting thier ascended and legendary gear.
But for a WvW player, the changes are leading to an even bigger division of wealth in this game and devaluing the rewards given in a game mode that already suffers from low return for time spent.
I'm not looking for WvW to become more lucrative than PvP or the PvE farms.
I do, however, feel that it should give me better rewards than an hour chopping wood and Mining rocks in Sparkfly Fen.

If considering changes, here are some points I would ask you to consider:
1. I would rather not see yet another Reward "Layer" added to the game mode. The addition of the Pips system was great, but having to navigate a third system on top of Reward Tracks and Pips is not my personal preference.
2. Please be mindful that any rewards should impact both the player in large groups as well as the small scale roamer.
3. Please avoid systems that encourage people who dislike the game mode from "doing as little as possible just for the reward". I don't feel that players AFKing to flip a sentry every 10 minutes just to farm a reward brings any positive energy to WvW.

Thanks for listening

"We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

Comments

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As per the last thread on this topic.

    There are some simple things to adress within the existing reward systems that came pre-nerfed and should never have been so stingy in the first place.

    The most obvious is not a direct gold-thing but rather that the reward track marks for Ascended items at the WvW vendor are split into 1/10 splinters.

    You earn 3 such splinters per week. 10 of them makes a mark and 3-4 marks makes an Ascended item at the WvW vendor.

    This means that a 3-mark item takes 10 weeks to obtain, a single, smaller Ascended item like a one-handed weapon. A 4-mark item, lika a two-handed weapon, takes 12 weeks to get. That is not a small difference in per-mode economy, making WvW not only far behind in mode-mode overlap but even more so disadvantageous when simply looking to play the mode and progress your characters within it. That drives players from the mode.

    If we're talking direct gold-value this too can simply be adressed by increasing, for example, the coins given in the reward tracks as another player made a thread about here recently.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No need to invent a new layer. Just enhance the chest rewards.

    Reward tracks right now are a bit wonky. Some of them are good source of crafting resources while others are much less valuable.

    We should get 1 gold per repeatable platinum chest and 10 gold for the final repeatable chest. That gives us extra rewards without being too high comparative to PvE.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    The biggest problem is that the WvW reward system is structured like Fractals but far less rewarding gold-wise. You can get most of the same things from WvW, including Ascended gear, stat-select trinkets and more, but the liquid gold rewards are not there, meaning that it takes you far longer to actually get those rewards from WvW compared to just playing PvE.

    A good example is how you can only get about 4-5 Ascended items per year by playing WvW heavily, because you can't use liquid gold rewards to increase the rate at which you get the Marks, while in PvE you can make a Mark every day on spare gold. This means that in PvE it takes you only about two weeks to get the same amount of Ascended gear it takes you an entire year to get in WvW.

    Considering that WvW is the game mode where Best In Slot (BiS) gear is most important, this should be changed.

    Also, the Infusions provided by WvW should not conflict with the PvE Infusions; players shouldn't have to chose one or the other. Currently, this means that if a player wants to play both modes they need two sets of gear (unless they only raid).

    Either introduce liquid gold rewards to WvW or make the Ascended Marks far easier to obtain. Then decouple the Infusions slots between the game modes or allow the addition of Agony Resist (AR) to WvW Infusions via Mystic Forge.

    And that'll be.. a start, at least.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 15k hours, ~27k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Alisha Kei/Druid(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW)

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't play it for the loot but please give me more loot. Also please give me more inventory space because all the loot I get is clogging it up.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Justine.6351 said:
    I don't play it for the loot but please give me more loot. Also please give me more inventory space because all the loot I get is clogging it up.

    You think about it the wrong way. This was never about people wanting more loot. This is about how something that takes a couple of hours in PvE takes tens of weeks in WvW. It drives players from the mode on a much larger scale than to the mode and that is a bad thing. No one would complain if the differences were 1-2x, that is reasonable and WvW does not have to be the most profitable or comparatively profitable. However 10x+ is just outrageously different and doesn't really offer choice or alternative (like gearing in WvW for WvW at a slightly lower rate but doing what you like).

    Let's look at examples:

    If you look at the modes as economies, that is an example of where WvW's economy isn't even reasonably sustained within itself. If you look at the overlaps of economies this means things like gemstore purchases like Warclaw skins or WvW transfers and the like are more affordable for PvE players. So people who spend less time playing WvW, helping out in WvW and so forth have advantageous access to things in WvW, for WvW or coveted among WvW players. That is a problem. This becomes a problem when the developer sits back and leans on things like their gemstore. I don't overly mind if GW2 turns into Gemstore 2 (other people have spent more time ranting about skillfully attainable rewards) but once you make that choice some sort of equality within reason becomes important.

    If they had a 1.2x advantage it wouldn't be much of a problem. At a 10x+ difference it ramps up to be quite a considerable problem. A WvW player may be concerned about Alliances and getting to play with their friends or getting milked for 150g every month for the pleasure of waiting. A PvE player who wants some easy access to quality tags can happily throw 150g at that once in a while. It's nothing for them, but a fair chunk for a 90%+ WvW player. The PvE player will not understand the importance of Alliances. They will not be frustrated by not getting to play the game with their friends and they will have no understanding or empathy for the people who are frustrated about it and quit the game over it. Tags who quit the game over it. Then Ray and Cal sits on stream and talk about how they are concerned about the low amount of tags in WvW. Everything is interconnected.

    I'm reaching a bit here with what perhaps is not the best (or best-connected) examples ever, but it isn't untrue.

    Old and present, why? Vision?

    I'm pretty sure, somewhere deep down, that most of these issues were directional choices to begin with. The system was made so WvW players shouldn't have sustainable rewards to send them cross-mode and explore more of the game. The marks were meant to supplement but not exchange crafting. When the core economies of the modes were drafted pre-release WvW was seen as an endgame, the modes had alot of overlap and it wasn't a problem for WvW to be a sink to other faucets. WvW was envisioned as something different than the GvG oriented modes of GW1 etc. Having servers for WvW was regarded as important as content-creating entities. That was questionable from the start, but even if some systems had an idea and a logic, 8 years later visions have changed, some aspects have been proven wrong and the systems no longer reflects something healthy for the playerbase. Then the systems need to change. There is just so little attention and change.

    Let's look at examples of that too

    I believe in playing cross-mode to some degree, using more stick than carrot to force players cross-mode is debatable to begin with but when the balance of it is so disfavourable for a mode that it slips more and more behind, then it becomes a problem. When other modes are not forced cross-mode it becomes a problem because you only get movement in one direction. When modes begin to overlap less and less (as more design is instanced etc.), then it becomes a problem, for example, a dedicated WvW player may find it far more agreeable to enter into World bosses than to farm LW maps, rush Fractals or do weekly Raid rotations. If the vision changes from overlapping design to polarized design then the idea of overlap in economy or encouraging crossover becomes more of a problem.

    Servers could perhaps once have been retained as important entities but that ship has sailed. They were also never more important than guilds and getting all your guilds killed comes with repercussions for the mode. Perhaps a healthy scoring system between servers would not have made GvG (or other guild-content) as important for birthing pickup commanders, but we've not had that, so that makes guild content an all-the-more important alternative. Regardless it would always have been a good thing. I could go on, but like I said, all of this is interconnected. Even if ArenaNet wants players to occupy themselves more cross-mode, letting WvW fall helplessly behind in most things is hardly the way to go. It also comes as no surprise that the mode is underpopulated when it has broken core systems, players have issues playing together, the issues interferes with players when they try to create content or when its economy is just made so much less appealing to engage within.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    I don't play it for the loot but please give me more loot. Also please give me more inventory space because all the loot I get is clogging it up.

    You think about it the wrong way. This was never about people wanting more loot. This is about how something that takes a couple of hours in PvE takes tens of weeks in WvW. It drives players from the mode on a much larger scale than to the mode and that is a bad thing. No one would complain if the differences were 1-2x, that is reasonable and WvW does not have to be the most profitable or comparatively profitable. However 10x+ is just outrageously different and doesn't really offer choice or alternative (like gearing in WvW for WvW at a slightly lower rate but doing what you like).

    Let's look at examples:

    If you look at the modes as economies, that is an example of where WvW's economy isn't even reasonably sustained within itself. If you look at the overlaps of economies this means things like gemstore purchases like Warclaw skins or WvW transfers and the like are more affordable for PvE players. So people who spend less time playing WvW, helping out in WvW and so forth have advantageous access to things in WvW, for WvW or coveted among WvW players. That is a problem. This becomes a problem when the developer sits back and leans on things like their gemstore. I don't overly mind if GW2 turns into Gemstore 2 (other people have spent more time ranting about skillfully attainable rewards) but once you make that choice some sort of equality within reason becomes important.

    If they had a 1.2x advantage it wouldn't be much of a problem. At a 10x+ difference it ramps up to be quite a considerable problem. A WvW player may be concerned about Alliances and getting to play with their friends or getting milked for 150g every month for the pleasure of waiting. A PvE player who wants some easy access to quality tags can happily throw 150g at that once in a while. It's nothing for them, but a fair chunk for a 90%+ WvW player. The PvE player will not understand the importance of Alliances. They will not be frustrated by not getting to play the game with their friends and they will have no understanding or empathy for the people who are frustrated about it and quit the game over it. Tags who quit the game over it. Then Ray and Cal sits on stream and talk about how they are concerned about the low amount of tags in WvW. Everything is interconnected.

    I'm reaching a bit here with what perhaps is not the best (or best-connected) examples ever, but it isn't untrue.

    Old and present, why? Vision?

    I'm pretty sure, somewhere deep down, that most of these issues were directional choices to begin with. The system was made so WvW players shouldn't have sustainable rewards to send them cross-mode and explore more of the game. The marks were meant to supplement but not exchange crafting. When the core economies of the modes were drafted pre-release WvW was seen as an endgame, the modes had alot of overlap and it wasn't a problem for WvW to be a sink to other faucets. WvW was envisioned as something different than the GvG oriented modes of GW1 etc. Having servers for WvW was regarded as important as content-creating entities. That was questionable from the start, but even if some systems had an idea and a logic, 8 years later visions have changed, some aspects have been proven wrong and the systems no longer reflects something healthy for the playerbase. Then the systems need to change. There is just so little attention and change.

    Let's look at examples of that too

    I believe in playing cross-mode to some degree, using more stick than carrot to force players cross-mode is debatable to begin with but when the balance of it is so disfavourable for a mode that it slips more and more behind, then it becomes a problem. When other modes are not forced cross-mode it becomes a problem because you only get movement in one direction. When modes begin to overlap less and less (as more design is instanced etc.), then it becomes a problem, for example, a dedicated WvW player may find it far more agreeable to enter into World bosses than to farm LW maps, rush Fractals or do weekly Raid rotations. If the vision changes from overlapping design to polarized design then the idea of overlap in economy or encouraging crossover becomes more of a problem.

    Servers could perhaps once have been retained as important entities but that ship has sailed. They were also never more important than guilds and getting all your guilds killed comes with repercussions for the mode. Perhaps a healthy scoring system between servers would not have made GvG (or other guild-content) as important for birthing pickup commanders, but we've not had that, so that makes guild content an all-the-more important alternative. Regardless it would always have been a good thing. I could go on, but like I said, all of this is interconnected. Even if ArenaNet wants players to occupy themselves more cross-mode, letting WvW fall helplessly behind in most things is hardly the way to go. It also comes as no surprise that the mode is underpopulated when it has broken core systems, players have issues playing together, the issues interferes with players when they try to create content or when its economy is just made so much less appealing to engage within.

    If loot is the determining factor on people being driven away from wvw then yeah I pretty sure they were there for the loot.

    You wanna know what really drives people away from wvw? Garbage canning classes in the name of "balance". Got to protect those pvers in wvw who can't dodge anything other than a giant red circle.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:
    If loot is the determining factor on people being driven away from wvw then yeah I pretty sure they were there for the loot.

    At no point did I say low rewards drive people away from the game mode.
    I didn't even say it drove me away from the game mode.
    I said only that those rewards I get there are significantly devalued (as much as 25%) over the past year largely as a consequence to re balancing rewards in PvE, in hopes that maybe the developers would take a look.
    I didn't threaten to take my ball and go home. I offered targeted feedback for the developers.
    It is my understanding that this is what the forums are for.

    You wanna know what really drives people away from wvw? Garbage canning classes in the name of "balance". Got to protect those pvers in wvw who can't dodge anything other than a giant red circle.

    Or you could stay on topic and not try to use a thread about rewards as your personal soapbox for "balance" complaints.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    The most obvious is not a direct gold-thing but rather that the reward track marks for Ascended items at the WvW vendor are split into 1/10 splinters.

    You earn 3 such splinters per week. 10 of them makes a mark and 3-4 marks makes an Ascended item at the WvW vendor.

    This means that a 3-mark item takes 10 weeks to obtain, a single, smaller Ascended item like a one-handed weapon. A 4-mark item, lika a two-handed weapon, takes 12 weeks to get.

    Let's also look at the fact that Strike Missions do not require Grandmaster Marks to purchase ascended weapons and armor. But in WvW not only am I gated by the marks, but I need to use the only currency that has increased in value (memories of battle) to get it.

    That drives players from the mode.

    You have zero data to back this up.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    I disagree with increasing loot that is relevant to PvE players that come in for dailies and go back to PvEing or afk at spawn. Moreover the idea of adding gold to skirmish tracks which entice people to afk is also a poorly thought out idea.
    Instead I would say that rewards for WvW should be focused on gearing and preparing people for WvW. That means siege, consumables (utility moreso nowadays), traps/tricks (siege disabler, stealth trap, etc), ascended gear, and WvW +5 stat infusions. Improvements and Tactics can be obtained from Skirmish Chests but generally are the domain of a guild rather than an individual.
    For example, if someone is relatively new to the game how would they be able to get +5 WvW stat infusions or ascended items? Right now there is the ridiculous 4 week timegate on grandmaster mark shards assuming you reach gold level rewards in skirmish tracks. That is the first thing that should go , all shards should be replaced with grandmaster mark chests themselves. This one change alone would be a huge quality of life improvement.

    • Increase warlord armor boxes rewarded. Exotic armor should be a standard for WvW players ; it is difficult to find support players in minstrel's, likewise for trailblazer or celestial.
      ** Idea: Introduce new reward track available to new WvW players < 100 WvW rank that pays out lvl 80 exotic armor stat select boxes with no particular skin.

    • Why are memories of battle tied to reward /skirmish tracks only I don't understand either. Why not reward players based on engagements that involve objectives rather than ktraining? Attacking a defended T3 keep that blew an EWP / defending a T3 keep against 25+ should mean more than a +1 keep capture or +1 keep defense especially for people that have repeated the achievement multiple times over if it was repeatable. On top of that, how about not counting repairing walls or killing guards for any rewards that give a few memories of battle? Memories of battle can be purchased/sold so this isn't as much of an issue but doing well in a battle should mean something more than skirmish +1 pip when skirmish score is higher.

    • More ways to spend testimonies of heroics would be an addition that would be worthwhile, perhaps an accountbound 32 slot siegemaster satchel meant for people that have consumables and siege. Right now superior siege is "covered" by testimonies of heroics and skirmish chests.
      ** 32 slot bag (estimated savings vs PvE ~ 120-190 gold)
      ** Top 10% of all gw2efficiency players has 832 testimonies of heroics (5,114 for 4k+ play hours) (https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.testimonyOfHeroics) , while 10% completed Icebrood Saga reward track and 15% has completed Emblem of the Avenger (https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.category=13)

    • Make emblems tradable at vendor for some other items such as guild siege, or siege skins. They'll not be that enticing for PvE players.

    • Make WvW guild missions reward a full set of guild siege. The infrastructure for rewarding active play is already in place there.
    • Have a new "carrot" that is only appealing to WvW players, upgrade option for mistforged weapons to legendary using similar methodology to Conflux. Mist Lord skins are available to PvP so they shouldn't count.
      ** Currently: Warbringer, Conflux, legendary WvW armor , mistforged armor set (skin) , mistforged hero's , mistforged obsidian weapons (shared with PvP) , Mist Lord's weapons (shared with PvP), mini catmander (not a longterm goal and people stow minis if they're serious)

    • Alternative role-based commander tags similar to catmander that rely on or are augmented by maxed WvW titles , for example a shield icon for Keep Defender+Tower Defender+Camp Defender or a sword icon for Keep Capture+Tower Capture. If it's too confusing make it overlay over normal commander tag. Stars for WvW rank tier (silver/gold/plat/mithril/diamond) when hovering over a role-based commander tag and it should list what type of commander they are.
      ** Top 10% on gw2efficiency is 760 WvW rank (3,077 for 4000+ total play hours) , while top 1% is 4,257 : https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.wvwRank

    • Ascended mistforged hero weapon boxes for each maxed WvW title or something similar.
      ** Not including Realm Defender which is spend 10 supply or Master of Disaster which is spend 10 supply on siege.

    • Mistforged hero weapon collection in basic collections. Legendary sigil rewarded when complete.

    • If the value from WvW stat infusions was changed to have +5 stats , +9 AR , and the current bonus vs lords/supervisors it would be more appealing to people that play fractals. Currently it is only appealing to people that raid. If it is deemed damaging to the economy, add a mystic forge recipe that requires a +9 AR infusion , +5 WvW infusion, anthology of heroes, and 5 ecto or some other currency.
    • Add premium siege skins in gemstore as monetization as requested for a long time
    • Add more utilities to canned food crate from skirmish chests / Permanent Portable Provisioner , namely a lvl 70 equivalent healing power utility or writ/thesis type effect with a flat bonus
    • Add alternative 1 hour long utility recipes that require badges of tribute or ingredients sold for testimonies of heroics
    • Alternative sharpening stone station recipe that requires WvW ingredients instead of deldrimor steel ingots
    • Alternative Bountiful Maintenance Oil recipe that has ingredients readily obtained in WvW
    • Increasing net WvW income should focus on expenses. So why not reduce the gold cost for traps and tricks so skirmish chests aren't the only way to get them? It's minor but ~5 silvers adds up.

    P.S. +150 armor from karka potion should be removed from WvW.

    Will add more as I think of it.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:
    No need to invent a new layer. Just enhance the chest rewards.

    Reward tracks right now are a bit wonky. Some of them are good source of crafting resources while others are much less valuable.

    I don't know.
    I'm at this weird point with reward tracks right now. I've done every reward track that offers weapon skins I didn't have but the Hero weapons, and I really don't care for the style of those. But otherwise ? All dungeon collections are done, All armor collections are done. everything is done.
    I have triumphant on repeat for the stat selectable armor boxes and clovers. I have 20 GoBs in the bank
    Every time a new track comes out, I have enough potions to blast through it immediately, and the last three releases they have given us One good track and made it not repeatable.
    And that repeatable Icebrood Saga one....did it even get re balanced when they changed the vendor and drop rates of Eternal Ice in open world?
    There's quite simply nothing left in reward tracks for me but stat selectable armor boxes for my buildcraft habit, clovers and crafting materials. Sometimes some dungeon currency if I am making a legendary.

    But while I was getting things I didn't have? I absolutely loved them. It sure is nicer to get those Bladed Armor chets without praying VB would go T4... you know what I mean.

    You know what I would like to see? A repeatable reward track with a decent raw gold reward return. Not Drizzlewood decent, not even Tarir decent... like mining platinum in Mount Maelstrom decent. Accessible only when you hit Gold rank
    Hell even give me something cool to buy into like that Warclaw one was. I thought 250g to get all that stuff was amazing and fun.

    We should get 1 gold per repeatable platinum chest and 10 gold for the final repeatable chest. That gives us extra rewards without being too high comparative to PvE.

    On the surface this really does seem to me like a good solution as well. Something in line with the sPvP chest rewards would be amazing.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I didn't quote you.

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    If loot is the determining factor on people being driven away from wvw then yeah I pretty sure they were there for the loot.

    At no point did I say low rewards drive people away from the game mode.

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    This is about how something that takes a couple of hours in PvE takes tens of weeks in WvW. It drives players from the mode on a much larger scale than to the mode and that is a bad thing. No one would complain if the differences were 1-2x, that is reasonable and WvW does not have to be the most profitable or comparatively profitable. However 10x+ is just outrageously different and doesn't really offer choice or alternative (like gearing in WvW for WvW at a slightly lower rate but doing what you like).

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    No need to invent a new layer. Just enhance the chest rewards.

    Reward tracks right now are a bit wonky. Some of them are good source of crafting resources while others are much less valuable.

    I don't know.
    I'm at this weird point with reward tracks right now. I've done every reward track that offers weapon skins I didn't have but the Hero weapons, and I really don't care for the style of those. But otherwise ? All dungeon collections are done, All armor collections are done. everything is done.
    I have triumphant on repeat for the stat selectable armor boxes and clovers. I have 20 GoBs in the bank
    Every time a new track comes out, I have enough potions to blast through it immediately, and the last three releases they have given us One good track and made it not repeatable.
    And that repeatable Icebrood Saga one....did it even get re balanced when they changed the vendor and drop rates of Eternal Ice in open world?
    There's quite simply nothing left in reward tracks for me but stat selectable armor boxes for my buildcraft habit, clovers and crafting materials. Sometimes some dungeon currency if I am making a legendary.

    But while I was getting things I didn't have? I absolutely loved them. It sure is nicer to get those Bladed Armor chets without praying VB would go T4... you know what I mean.

    You know what I would like to see? A repeatable reward track with a decent raw gold reward return. Not Drizzlewood decent, not even Tarir decent... like mining platinum in Mount Maelstrom decent. Accessible only when you hit Gold rank
    Hell even give me something cool to buy into like that Warclaw one was. I thought 250g to get all that stuff was amazing and fun.

    We should get 1 gold per repeatable platinum chest and 10 gold for the final repeatable chest. That gives us extra rewards without being too high comparative to PvE.

    On the surface this really does seem to me like a good solution as well. Something in line with the sPvP chest rewards would be amazing.

    Yeah, I have 10 GoB, I don’t really need too much more of the currencies from LWS4 maps, because I have Skyscale and all the stuff to make Vision that is special currency focused. I also have done all the single run reward tracks for the bonus clovers (which is helpful).

    Reward tracks are good right now for bonus Memories of Battle (always good for making legendary armor) and bonus materials for crafting ascended crafting materials for sale or for crafting grandmaster marks.

    Besides the gold idea on repeatables, I guess I’d add in that the mark shard system should be replaced with a single mark per week. There is no reason it should take as long as it does to exchange shards for marks. If I earn the tickets to buy an ascended piece I should at least get one mark towards that (and have to craft a couple more to get it that same week). In three weeks I can almost get one mark but I get roughly 1k tickets. That’s enough for a legendary gift but I still need one more week to get that first mark. It’s not that we should earn 3 marks per week in WvW, just that we should feel some tangible progress each week (the feeling of getting a shard is like “meh.”

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Blackarps.1974Blackarps.1974 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    What I've seen mentioned a lot is the addition of reward. The problem with WvW is that its saturated by the same loot for years. It doesn't get updated enough to balance out the economy to provide any profit for players. The amount of gold you spend on changing gear and buying mats for food, tactics, and siege means you're lucky if you really profit much at all. Maybe 4-5 gold over a couple of hours?

    Also, if Anet adds something like more Mystic Coins to the skirmish tracks, its only going to bring that value down slowly if there isn't any introduction to make them hold their value. One case of this are unidentified dyes. Their value has steadily dropped ever since they became rewards in skirmish chests. More and more people have all the dyes they need and no real need for unidentified ones so the value of them drops as the supply rises.

    Anet really just needs to make containers you can buy with some kind of new currency. I think if they did it with skirmish tickets or badges of honor, the economy would crash but I'm also against adding even more currencies to the game. If they don't want to go this route, just give us junk items to sell or raw gold and call it a day. Making legendary shards that currently drop also hold a gold value would also help a little.

    Either way, we need better rewards in terms of gold income.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    No need to invent a new layer. Just enhance the chest rewards.

    Reward tracks right now are a bit wonky. Some of them are good source of crafting resources while others are much less valuable.

    I don't know.
    I'm at this weird point with reward tracks right now. I've done every reward track that offers weapon skins I didn't have but the Hero weapons, and I really don't care for the style of those. But otherwise ? All dungeon collections are done, All armor collections are done. everything is done.
    I have triumphant on repeat for the stat selectable armor boxes and clovers. I have 20 GoBs in the bank
    Every time a new track comes out, I have enough potions to blast through it immediately, and the last three releases they have given us One good track and made it not repeatable.
    And that repeatable Icebrood Saga one....did it even get re balanced when they changed the vendor and drop rates of Eternal Ice in open world?
    There's quite simply nothing left in reward tracks for me but stat selectable armor boxes for my buildcraft habit, clovers and crafting materials. Sometimes some dungeon currency if I am making a legendary.

    But while I was getting things I didn't have? I absolutely loved them. It sure is nicer to get those Bladed Armor chets without praying VB would go T4... you know what I mean.

    You know what I would like to see? A repeatable reward track with a decent raw gold reward return. Not Drizzlewood decent, not even Tarir decent... like mining platinum in Mount Maelstrom decent. Accessible only when you hit Gold rank
    Hell even give me something cool to buy into like that Warclaw one was. I thought 250g to get all that stuff was amazing and fun.

    We should get 1 gold per repeatable platinum chest and 10 gold for the final repeatable chest. That gives us extra rewards without being too high comparative to PvE.

    On the surface this really does seem to me like a good solution as well. Something in line with the sPvP chest rewards would be amazing.

    Yeah, I have 10 GoB, I don’t really need too much more of the currencies from LWS4 maps, because I have Skyscale and all the stuff to make Vision that is special currency focused. I also have done all the single run reward tracks for the bonus clovers (which is helpful).

    Reward tracks are good right now for bonus Memories of Battle (always good for making legendary armor) and bonus materials for crafting ascended crafting materials for sale or for crafting grandmaster marks.

    Besides the gold idea on repeatables, I guess I’d add in that the mark shard system should be replaced with a single mark per week. There is no reason it should take as long as it does to exchange shards for marks. If I earn the tickets to buy an ascended piece I should at least get one mark towards that (and have to craft a couple more to get it that same week). In three weeks I can almost get one mark but I get roughly 1k tickets. That’s enough for a legendary gift but I still need one more week to get that first mark. It’s not that we should earn 3 marks per week in WvW, just that we should feel some tangible progress each week (the feeling of getting a shard is like “meh.”

    It's asinine to suggest greater rewards and then expect people to craft cost inflated grandmaster mark stuff just to make ascended WvW armor/weapons. What about people that outright don't PvE? A few years back Mike O Brien stated that WvW players also play PvE , but it is out of necessity.

    If you look at the tickets for completing diamond you should have three (3) or four (4) grandmaster marks (not shards) per week if you spend the effort to complete the final diamond skirmish chest.

    If people are going to suggest better WvW rewards that aren't useful for WvW-only players , it kind of defeats the point. It's almost certain that the rewards will never be amped up to the point of gold per hour on par with PvE (oftentimes it's around 30+ gold per hour). There's something called supply and demand, so unless gold is indirectly handed out for participation (i.e. legendary spike or otherwise) in events that require effort (i.e. T3 offense vs 25+ when EWP is pulled or T3 defense when EWP is pulled vs 25+ without outnumbering other team) there is low possibility of it being effective. You'd just have a flooded market similar to two silvers for memories of battle when they were in rank up chests but no real outlet for them.

    If anything the walking of yaks to untiered objectives is extremely rare these days and ought to be reevaluated. Maybe it's time to ditch veteran creature slayer as a daily and make it a weekly thing.
    Sentry capture? A daily and counts for guard killer , provides marker on enemy movement similar to watchtower.
    Camp capture/defense? Often a daily and is needed for supply.
    Tower capture/defense? A daily and needed for tick
    Keep capture/defense? A daily and if you aren't taking or defending keeps you're playing the wrong mode
    Stonemist castle capture isn't a daily but "defending" it counts for objective defender.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    I don't play it for the loot but please give me more loot. Also please give me more inventory space because all the loot I get is clogging it up.

    If loot is the determining factor on people being driven away from wvw then yeah I pretty sure they were there for the loot.

    Loot isn't the determining factor in the sense that you first implied and I qouted. The determining factor is the amount of time needed to be spent to obtain something most people will consider required for playing. The determining factor isn't even that, it is the wide gap in differences of that.

    If you look at it in a more general sense then loot is always a determining factor. It may not be for you or me but any time WvW has had something coveted by players that is unattainable elsewhere the mode has been flooded, however short. Such design can be debated though, but it also goes to show that if things in WvW was more comparative rather than the odd exclusive that could perhaps entertain and retain more players on a more stable basis.

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    That drives players from the mode.

    You have zero data to back this up.

    It doesn't need data, it's stating something obvious. You are just reading it in a broader sense that it was meant. Though, in fairness, I could have been more clear since I later in the post expand into that territory. However, the qoute is simply referring to that if people are heavily encouraged to go into PvE to gear up that will drive them out of WvW for that period of time. Almost every WvW player that I know have done more PvE than they have wanted to or have not had fun while doing so just to secure some sort of resource they want or need for WvW.

    It is the same when PvE players look to obtain the Gift of Battle. That is also poor design (at least when there is so little other overlap that cross-moding is otherwise abnormal). The difference as always (and why most of us in WvW may not be very sympathetic when PvE players complain about the gift) is the size of the gap that makes up the difference. It is hard to sympathize with the plights of the gift when we experience the same but in reverse 10x worse.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    No need to invent a new layer. Just enhance the chest rewards.

    Reward tracks right now are a bit wonky. Some of them are good source of crafting resources while others are much less valuable.

    I don't know.
    I'm at this weird point with reward tracks right now. I've done every reward track that offers weapon skins I didn't have but the Hero weapons, and I really don't care for the style of those. But otherwise ? All dungeon collections are done, All armor collections are done. everything is done.
    I have triumphant on repeat for the stat selectable armor boxes and clovers. I have 20 GoBs in the bank
    Every time a new track comes out, I have enough potions to blast through it immediately, and the last three releases they have given us One good track and made it not repeatable.
    And that repeatable Icebrood Saga one....did it even get re balanced when they changed the vendor and drop rates of Eternal Ice in open world?
    There's quite simply nothing left in reward tracks for me but stat selectable armor boxes for my buildcraft habit, clovers and crafting materials. Sometimes some dungeon currency if I am making a legendary.

    But while I was getting things I didn't have? I absolutely loved them. It sure is nicer to get those Bladed Armor chets without praying VB would go T4... you know what I mean.

    You know what I would like to see? A repeatable reward track with a decent raw gold reward return. Not Drizzlewood decent, not even Tarir decent... like mining platinum in Mount Maelstrom decent. Accessible only when you hit Gold rank
    Hell even give me something cool to buy into like that Warclaw one was. I thought 250g to get all that stuff was amazing and fun.

    We should get 1 gold per repeatable platinum chest and 10 gold for the final repeatable chest. That gives us extra rewards without being too high comparative to PvE.

    On the surface this really does seem to me like a good solution as well. Something in line with the sPvP chest rewards would be amazing.

    Yeah, I have 10 GoB, I don’t really need too much more of the currencies from LWS4 maps, because I have Skyscale and all the stuff to make Vision that is special currency focused. I also have done all the single run reward tracks for the bonus clovers (which is helpful).

    Reward tracks are good right now for bonus Memories of Battle (always good for making legendary armor) and bonus materials for crafting ascended crafting materials for sale or for crafting grandmaster marks.

    Besides the gold idea on repeatables, I guess I’d add in that the mark shard system should be replaced with a single mark per week. There is no reason it should take as long as it does to exchange shards for marks. If I earn the tickets to buy an ascended piece I should at least get one mark towards that (and have to craft a couple more to get it that same week). In three weeks I can almost get one mark but I get roughly 1k tickets. That’s enough for a legendary gift but I still need one more week to get that first mark. It’s not that we should earn 3 marks per week in WvW, just that we should feel some tangible progress each week (the feeling of getting a shard is like “meh.”

    It's asinine to suggest greater rewards and then expect people to craft cost inflated grandmaster mark stuff just to make ascended WvW armor/weapons. What about people that outright don't PvE? A few years back Mike O Brien stated that WvW players also play PvE , but it is out of necessity.

    If you look at the tickets for completing diamond you should have three (3) or four (4) grandmaster marks (not shards) per week if you spend the effort to complete the final diamond skirmish chest.

    If people are going to suggest better WvW rewards that aren't useful for WvW-only players , it kind of defeats the point. It's almost certain that the rewards will never be amped up to the point of gold per hour on par with PvE (oftentimes it's around 30+ gold per hour). There's something called supply and demand, so unless gold is indirectly handed out for participation (i.e. legendary spike or otherwise) in events that require effort (i.e. T3 offense vs 25+ when EWP is pulled or T3 defense when EWP is pulled vs 25+ without outnumbering other team) there is low possibility of it being effective. You'd just have a flooded market similar to two silvers for memories of battle when they were in rank up chests but no real outlet for them.

    If anything the walking of yaks to untiered objectives is extremely rare these days and ought to be reevaluated. Maybe it's time to ditch veteran creature slayer as a daily and make it a weekly thing.
    Sentry capture? A daily and counts for guard killer , provides marker on enemy movement similar to watchtower.
    Camp capture/defense? Often a daily and is needed for supply.
    Tower capture/defense? A daily and needed for tick
    Keep capture/defense? A daily and if you aren't taking or defending keeps you're playing the wrong mode
    Stonemist castle capture isn't a daily but "defending" it counts for objective defender.

    I don’t think the rewards need to be 100% in WvW. WvW uses crafting as much as pve. I only expect that the marks rewarded by the track are complimented by marks crafted normally.

    We used to have crafting stations in WvW before they forced people to visit cities or special areas (pass based access). That you need to leave WvW to do the crafting ignores that all the materials for said crafting can be earned through reward tracks quite easily.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Infusion.7149 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    No need to invent a new layer. Just enhance the chest rewards.

    Reward tracks right now are a bit wonky. Some of them are good source of crafting resources while others are much less valuable.

    I don't know.
    I'm at this weird point with reward tracks right now. I've done every reward track that offers weapon skins I didn't have but the Hero weapons, and I really don't care for the style of those. But otherwise ? All dungeon collections are done, All armor collections are done. everything is done.
    I have triumphant on repeat for the stat selectable armor boxes and clovers. I have 20 GoBs in the bank
    Every time a new track comes out, I have enough potions to blast through it immediately, and the last three releases they have given us One good track and made it not repeatable.
    And that repeatable Icebrood Saga one....did it even get re balanced when they changed the vendor and drop rates of Eternal Ice in open world?
    There's quite simply nothing left in reward tracks for me but stat selectable armor boxes for my buildcraft habit, clovers and crafting materials. Sometimes some dungeon currency if I am making a legendary.

    But while I was getting things I didn't have? I absolutely loved them. It sure is nicer to get those Bladed Armor chets without praying VB would go T4... you know what I mean.

    You know what I would like to see? A repeatable reward track with a decent raw gold reward return. Not Drizzlewood decent, not even Tarir decent... like mining platinum in Mount Maelstrom decent. Accessible only when you hit Gold rank
    Hell even give me something cool to buy into like that Warclaw one was. I thought 250g to get all that stuff was amazing and fun.

    We should get 1 gold per repeatable platinum chest and 10 gold for the final repeatable chest. That gives us extra rewards without being too high comparative to PvE.

    On the surface this really does seem to me like a good solution as well. Something in line with the sPvP chest rewards would be amazing.

    Yeah, I have 10 GoB, I don’t really need too much more of the currencies from LWS4 maps, because I have Skyscale and all the stuff to make Vision that is special currency focused. I also have done all the single run reward tracks for the bonus clovers (which is helpful).

    Reward tracks are good right now for bonus Memories of Battle (always good for making legendary armor) and bonus materials for crafting ascended crafting materials for sale or for crafting grandmaster marks.

    Besides the gold idea on repeatables, I guess I’d add in that the mark shard system should be replaced with a single mark per week. There is no reason it should take as long as it does to exchange shards for marks. If I earn the tickets to buy an ascended piece I should at least get one mark towards that (and have to craft a couple more to get it that same week). In three weeks I can almost get one mark but I get roughly 1k tickets. That’s enough for a legendary gift but I still need one more week to get that first mark. It’s not that we should earn 3 marks per week in WvW, just that we should feel some tangible progress each week (the feeling of getting a shard is like “meh.”

    It's asinine to suggest greater rewards and then expect people to craft cost inflated grandmaster mark stuff just to make ascended WvW armor/weapons. What about people that outright don't PvE? A few years back Mike O Brien stated that WvW players also play PvE , but it is out of necessity.

    If you look at the tickets for completing diamond you should have three (3) or four (4) grandmaster marks (not shards) per week if you spend the effort to complete the final diamond skirmish chest.

    If people are going to suggest better WvW rewards that aren't useful for WvW-only players , it kind of defeats the point. It's almost certain that the rewards will never be amped up to the point of gold per hour on par with PvE (oftentimes it's around 30+ gold per hour). There's something called supply and demand, so unless gold is indirectly handed out for participation (i.e. legendary spike or otherwise) in events that require effort (i.e. T3 offense vs 25+ when EWP is pulled or T3 defense when EWP is pulled vs 25+ without outnumbering other team) there is low possibility of it being effective. You'd just have a flooded market similar to two silvers for memories of battle when they were in rank up chests but no real outlet for them.

    If anything the walking of yaks to untiered objectives is extremely rare these days and ought to be reevaluated. Maybe it's time to ditch veteran creature slayer as a daily and make it a weekly thing.
    Sentry capture? A daily and counts for guard killer , provides marker on enemy movement similar to watchtower.
    Camp capture/defense? Often a daily and is needed for supply.
    Tower capture/defense? A daily and needed for tick
    Keep capture/defense? A daily and if you aren't taking or defending keeps you're playing the wrong mode
    Stonemist castle capture isn't a daily but "defending" it counts for objective defender.

    I don’t think the rewards need to be 100% in WvW. WvW uses crafting as much as pve. I only expect that the marks rewarded by the track are complimented by marks crafted normally.

    We used to have crafting stations in WvW before they forced people to visit cities or special areas (pass based access). That you need to leave WvW to do the crafting ignores that all the materials for said crafting can be earned through reward tracks quite easily.

    The recipes for grandmaster marks require PvP/fractal/WvW currency. On top of that people would need 500 craft discipline.

    You need to look at it through the lens of a new player that doesn't do fractals or PvP. Why do you expect people to invest gold into armorsmith / tailor/ leatherworker via grandmaster marks if it's far more effective to craft just about every stat save for minstrel's/trailblazer's? Keep in mind for weapons you would need to level at least two professions for something like guardian or necromancer.

    Per gw2crafts 0-500:
    huntsman ~ 80g
    weaponsmith/artificer ~ 70g
    leatherworker ~ 50g
    armorsmith/tailor ~ 40g

    I personally don't think it's a great idea to make people jump through hoops just to get triumphant hero armor/weapons or Mist Lord/obsidian weapons when extremely timegated already via skirmish tickets and memories of battle.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Changing shards to marks really wouldn’t be a great long term change.

    Effectively, you are going to out craft their usefulness.

    Unless you were allowed to sell
    Marks. Which, likely won’t happen.

    I agree with the poster who kites more mystic coins would be bad.

    Gold tweaks would be a welcome change. The drawback to it being in the skirmish chests is you will see significant complaints that it ‘only benefits the veterans’. And anything that encourages low engagement play is A negative

    Finding that balance where, rewards for active play, that don’t encourage a significant rise in either kill trading or karma training, versus rewarding just being present in the mode.

    That would be the sweet spot.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    • Make Emblem of the Avenger / Emblem of the Conqueror vendorable - say around 2.5g each
    • Increase the drop rate of Legendary Spikes
    • Add grey vendor trash / flavour items to NPC and player loot table (not as part of a Heavy Loot bag). Each item vendors for 20s. At least one added item must be named something related to "tears", with another referencing "salt" in some fashion. Drop rate should yield somewhere around 1g / 40-50 kills.
    • Double the coin reward for gaining an WXP rank. sPvP matches reward losers with 15s and winners with 30s, for a match that takes at most 10-12 mins to finish. Gaining an WXP level organically on average takes much longer
    • Add coin rewards to Tower Lords, Keep Lords and SMC Champion Lord. Value should throttle upwards from T1 to T3. 10s for Tower Lord, 25s for Keep Lord, and 50s for Champion Lord. 0 for Camp Veterans of Sentries (face it, those NPCs weren't good enough to be Tower or Keep Lords).

    All of these rewards require a player be active in attacking or defending objectives and other players. Anyone focusing on afk'ing while hitting walls for participation will see zero gains.

    That's just what I thought of in the last 10 minutes. Not difficult, really.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Changing shards to marks really wouldn’t be a great long term change.

    Effectively, you are going to out craft their usefulness.

    Unless you were allowed to sell
    Marks. Which, likely won’t happen.

    I agree with the poster who kites more mystic coins would be bad.

    Gold tweaks would be a welcome change. The drawback to it being in the skirmish chests is you will see significant complaints that it ‘only benefits the veterans’. And anything that encourages low engagement play is A negative

    Finding that balance where, rewards for active play, that don’t encourage a significant rise in either kill trading or karma training, versus rewarding just being present in the mode.

    That would be the sweet spot.

    How about trading emblems for Mystic coins?

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I just want to thank most of the people in this thread for rational discourse and a few well thought out suggestions.

    Here are a few of the suggestions I personally really liked:
    A reward track that offers wvw infusions as a reward.
    Offering Stat-selectable armor early (possibly replacing the offerings of the existing karma vendors?).
    Monetzing Emblems.
    Increasing the rate at which the Warlord Armor set can be earned
    Upping the rate at which Grandmaster marks are earned.
    Increasing the drop rate of legendary spikes.
    More interesting/valuable vendor trash
    A better selection of Utility Consumables in the Vendors or Portable Provisioner.
    Upping the value of repeatable Diamond Chests

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    That drives players from the mode.

    You have zero data to back this up.

    It doesn't need data, it's stating something obvious.

    Either side can state that they’re “just stating the obvious”.

    There are a multitude of reasons that can drive players from playing any particular game mode. While you’re technically correct that the lack of rewards could drive players away, the lack of data doesn’t indicate its impact. It could be a large percentage of players or a small amount. There’s no way of knowing without data presented to back up the argument.

    I mean, I could make an argument that WvW players don’t really play WvW for the rewards and that the disparity of those rewards compared to other game modes really isn’t a large enough factor to drive them from that game mode. I could follow up with “it’s pretty obvious”.

    Who would be right and who would be wrong? We’re both making subjective claims. In order to present an argument without backing it up, under the guise of common knowledge, it would have to be established that it is reasonably common knowledge.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Changing shards to marks really wouldn’t be a great long term change.

    Effectively, you are going to out craft their usefulness.

    Unless you were allowed to sell
    Marks. Which, likely won’t happen.

    I agree with the poster who kites more mystic coins would be bad.

    Gold tweaks would be a welcome change. The drawback to it being in the skirmish chests is you will see significant complaints that it ‘only benefits the veterans’. And anything that encourages low engagement play is A negative

    Finding that balance where, rewards for active play, that don’t encourage a significant rise in either kill trading or karma training, versus rewarding just being present in the mode.

    That would be the sweet spot.

    How about trading emblems for Mystic coins?

    I don’t know. And I mean that completely on face value.

    Both, in theory, could be utilized to ‘farm’ them, but somewhere there has to be a happy medium. Maybe that is it.

    I guess I just don’t know where that point is. I would love that as an option to increase rewards, but also hope it wouldn’t be too easy to exploit.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    That drives players from the mode.

    You have zero data to back this up.

    It doesn't need data, it's stating something obvious.

    Either side can state that they’re “just stating the obvious”.

    There are a multitude of reasons that can drive players from playing any particular game mode. While you’re technically correct that the lack of rewards could drive players away, the lack of data doesn’t indicate its impact. It could be a large percentage of players or a small amount. There’s no way of knowing without data presented to back up the argument.

    I mean, I could make an argument that WvW players don’t really play WvW for the rewards and that the disparity of those rewards compared to other game modes really isn’t a large enough factor to drive them from that game mode. I could follow up with “it’s pretty obvious”.

    Who would be right and who would be wrong? We’re both making subjective claims. In order to present an argument without backing it up, under the guise of common knowledge, it would have to be established that it is reasonably common knowledge.

    Maybe you should read what I wrote one more time.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Changing shards to marks really wouldn’t be a great long term change.

    Effectively, you are going to out craft their usefulness.

    Unless you were allowed to sell
    Marks. Which, likely won’t happen.

    I agree with the poster who kites more mystic coins would be bad.

    Gold tweaks would be a welcome change. The drawback to it being in the skirmish chests is you will see significant complaints that it ‘only benefits the veterans’. And anything that encourages low engagement play is A negative

    Finding that balance where, rewards for active play, that don’t encourage a significant rise in either kill trading or karma training, versus rewarding just being present in the mode.

    That would be the sweet spot.

    How about trading emblems for Mystic coins?

    I don’t know. And I mean that completely on face value.

    Both, in theory, could be utilized to ‘farm’ them, but somewhere there has to be a happy medium. Maybe that is it.

    I guess I just don’t know where that point is. I would love that as an option to increase rewards, but also hope it wouldn’t be too easy to exploit.

    Well emblems can't be afk farmed and as far as kill trading/k training, I don't think they would cause more of it. It's essentially 1.5g per 100 kills and objective caps.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Changing shards to marks really wouldn’t be a great long term change.

    Effectively, you are going to out craft their usefulness.

    Unless you were allowed to sell
    Marks. Which, likely won’t happen.

    I agree with the poster who kites more mystic coins would be bad.

    Gold tweaks would be a welcome change. The drawback to it being in the skirmish chests is you will see significant complaints that it ‘only benefits the veterans’. And anything that encourages low engagement play is A negative

    Finding that balance where, rewards for active play, that don’t encourage a significant rise in either kill trading or karma training, versus rewarding just being present in the mode.

    That would be the sweet spot.

    How about trading emblems for Mystic coins?

    I don’t know. And I mean that completely on face value.

    Both, in theory, could be utilized to ‘farm’ them, but somewhere there has to be a happy medium. Maybe that is it.

    I guess I just don’t know where that point is. I would love that as an option to increase rewards, but also hope it wouldn’t be too easy to exploit.

    Well emblems can't be afk farmed and as far as kill trading/k training, I don't think they would cause more of it. It's essentially 1.5g per 100 kills and objective caps.

    That’s a good point. Would take several people coordinating it like some did with OS and kills.

    Would be hard to pull off. Not a bad idea. 🙂

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Changing shards to marks really wouldn’t be a great long term change.

    Effectively, you are going to out craft their usefulness.

    Unless you were allowed to sell
    Marks. Which, likely won’t happen.

    I agree with the poster who kites more mystic coins would be bad.

    Gold tweaks would be a welcome change. The drawback to it being in the skirmish chests is you will see significant complaints that it ‘only benefits the veterans’. And anything that encourages low engagement play is A negative

    Finding that balance where, rewards for active play, that don’t encourage a significant rise in either kill trading or karma training, versus rewarding just being present in the mode.

    That would be the sweet spot.

    How about trading emblems for Mystic coins?

    I don’t know. And I mean that completely on face value.

    Both, in theory, could be utilized to ‘farm’ them, but somewhere there has to be a happy medium. Maybe that is it.

    I guess I just don’t know where that point is. I would love that as an option to increase rewards, but also hope it wouldn’t be too easy to exploit.

    Well emblems can't be afk farmed and as far as kill trading/k training, I don't think they would cause more of it. It's essentially 1.5g per 100 kills and objective caps.

    That’s a good point. Would take several people coordinating it like some did with OS and kills.

    Would be hard to pull off. Not a bad idea. 🙂

    Well WvW needs more MCs and more liquid wealth. This would just be a small boost overall in reality.

  • MarzAttakz.9608MarzAttakz.9608 Member ✭✭✭

    So back in the day before we had ranks and reward tracks and mounts and all the fluff stuff like Dragon Banners and Tactivators etc I was one of the few players in our guild who played majority WvW (6-8 hrs per day when most active).

    Another guildie never went into WvW - farming Orr and dungeon runs were his thing, he played far less than I did.

    Fast forward a year or so and the guild decided to move to another game as we were built around trinity style play but I stayed in Gw2 because I loved WvW so much. He had a legendary (Sunrise I think) and I had 20G in my account.

    Granted I've taken breaks (numbering in years at times) and now have 9 characters, 1077G (mostly from PVE), a fair amount of ascended gear (again, mostly from PVE or self crafted) and still no legendary's - so yes, some things have improved but wealth from a gold per hour in WvW is still utterly kitten.

    justsaying #once-a-wvw-hobo #always-a-www-hobo

    Deso since 2012. Elementalist for life.
    [EXG][TAG]

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    That drives players from the mode.

    You have zero data to back this up.

    It doesn't need data, it's stating something obvious.

    Either side can state that they’re “just stating the obvious”.

    There are a multitude of reasons that can drive players from playing any particular game mode. While you’re technically correct that the lack of rewards could drive players away, the lack of data doesn’t indicate its impact. It could be a large percentage of players or a small amount. There’s no way of knowing without data presented to back up the argument.

    I mean, I could make an argument that WvW players don’t really play WvW for the rewards and that the disparity of those rewards compared to other game modes really isn’t a large enough factor to drive them from that game mode. I could follow up with “it’s pretty obvious”.

    Who would be right and who would be wrong? We’re both making subjective claims. In order to present an argument without backing it up, under the guise of common knowledge, it would have to be established that it is reasonably common knowledge.

    Maybe you should read what I wrote one more time.

    Maybe you should read what I wrote one more time?

    There are probably an infinite number of reasons that someone may leave a game mode. You can't just pick one without data and state that it has to be the reason because "it's just obvious". What if the reason that players are leaving the game mode is because of balance issues or it's gotten stale? You're so hyper focused on rewards when increasing the rewards would most likely not resolve either of those issues. Without data, you don't know the percentage of players that fall under any of those reasons or others not mentioned.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    That drives players from the mode.

    You have zero data to back this up.

    It doesn't need data, it's stating something obvious.

    Either side can state that they’re “just stating the obvious”.

    There are a multitude of reasons that can drive players from playing any particular game mode. While you’re technically correct that the lack of rewards could drive players away, the lack of data doesn’t indicate its impact. It could be a large percentage of players or a small amount. There’s no way of knowing without data presented to back up the argument.

    I mean, I could make an argument that WvW players don’t really play WvW for the rewards and that the disparity of those rewards compared to other game modes really isn’t a large enough factor to drive them from that game mode. I could follow up with “it’s pretty obvious”.

    Who would be right and who would be wrong? We’re both making subjective claims. In order to present an argument without backing it up, under the guise of common knowledge, it would have to be established that it is reasonably common knowledge.

    Maybe you should read what I wrote one more time.

    Maybe you should read what I wrote one more time?

    There are probably an infinite number of reasons that someone may leave a game mode. You can't just pick one without data and state that it has to be the reason because "it's just obvious". What if the reason that players are leaving the game mode is because of balance issues or it's gotten stale? You're so hyper focused on rewards when increasing the rewards would most likely not resolve either of those issues. Without data, you don't know the percentage of players that fall under any of those reasons or others not mentioned.

    Yes, and that is completely irrelevant to what you qouted. It's fine if you want to have a discussion, just don't misrepresent something simply because you want to talk. You don't need data to support the claim that the Gift of Battle drives players into the mode. That is its design. You don't need data to support the claim that an item disparity of (30g) vs. (30g + tickets + marks) will drive players towards the obvious choice. That is in the design. There is alot of other things that can be said about it, but at face value the statements stands on their own, and for some reason you can't get past that.

    That was the way the original qoute was implied, misinterpreted, re-explained and here you come gleefully walzing in and trying to expand on the misinterpretation because you still don't understand what was said. You are literally talking to yourself, projecting and making up strawmen now because your ego was bruised by my suggestion of taking a second look at what was said :) .

    With that, again, said:

    If you are looking for data on the larger discussion about itemization and population drive there is plenty of simple data for you immerse yourself with: Did the Warclaw create a population spike, for example? Maybe you can phrase your topic around that.

    If you are looking for the even larger discussion about what chiefly drives- or is the most important for the de/re-population game mode then, no, it is not gold income. It's the matchup/scoring outcomes and ability recruit and play with friends, but that is not the topic here, however much I like to talk about Alliances.

  • TheBravery.9615TheBravery.9615 Member ✭✭✭

    don't play the game for the loot. the loot sucks. OH BOY CRAFTING MATERIAL /s

    Play for the thrill of slaughtering your foes without mercy

  • Shining One.1635Shining One.1635 Member ✭✭✭

    When making two Slumbering Confluxes, I found it significantly faster to earn the necessary Memories of Battle by playing PvE (Living World, Silverwastes, Daily Fractals) and using the gold earned to buy the Memories of Battle rather than playing WvW where the Memories are actually earned. The Memories were worth ~15 Silver at the time.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    That drives players from the mode.

    You have zero data to back this up.

    It doesn't need data, it's stating something obvious.

    Either side can state that they’re “just stating the obvious”.

    There are a multitude of reasons that can drive players from playing any particular game mode. While you’re technically correct that the lack of rewards could drive players away, the lack of data doesn’t indicate its impact. It could be a large percentage of players or a small amount. There’s no way of knowing without data presented to back up the argument.

    I mean, I could make an argument that WvW players don’t really play WvW for the rewards and that the disparity of those rewards compared to other game modes really isn’t a large enough factor to drive them from that game mode. I could follow up with “it’s pretty obvious”.

    Who would be right and who would be wrong? We’re both making subjective claims. In order to present an argument without backing it up, under the guise of common knowledge, it would have to be established that it is reasonably common knowledge.

    Maybe you should read what I wrote one more time.

    Maybe you should read what I wrote one more time?

    There are probably an infinite number of reasons that someone may leave a game mode. You can't just pick one without data and state that it has to be the reason because "it's just obvious". What if the reason that players are leaving the game mode is because of balance issues or it's gotten stale? You're so hyper focused on rewards when increasing the rewards would most likely not resolve either of those issues. Without data, you don't know the percentage of players that fall under any of those reasons or others not mentioned.

    Yes, and that is completely irrelevant to what you qouted. It's fine if you want to have a discussion, just don't misrepresent something simply because you want to talk. You don't need data to support the claim that the Gift of Battle drives players into the mode. That is its design. You don't need data to support the claim that an item disparity of (30g) vs. (30g + tickets + marks) will drive players towards the obvious choice. That is in the design. There is alot of other things that can be said about it, but at face value the statements stands on their own, and for some reason you can't get past that.

    That was the way the original qoute was implied, misinterpreted, re-explained and here you come gleefully walzing in and trying to expand on the misinterpretation because you still don't understand what was said. You are literally talking to yourself, projecting and making up strawmen now because your ego was bruised by my suggestion of taking a second look at what was said :) .

    With that, again, said:

    If you are looking for data on the larger discussion about itemization and population drive there is plenty of simple data for you immerse yourself with: Did the Warclaw create a population spike, for example? Maybe you can phrase your topic around that.

    If you are looking for the even larger discussion about what chiefly drives- or is the most important for the de/re-population game mode then, no, it is not gold income. It's the matchup/scoring outcomes and ability recruit and play with friends, but that is not the topic here, however much I like to talk about Alliances.

    Except you're using it to justify increasing rewards. There's s difference which goes back to what I have stated in previous posts.

    Also keep in mind that all of the examples you're listing are unique rewards that are only available in WvW. That's much different than increasing monetary rewards.

  • Gorani.7205Gorani.7205 Member ✭✭✭

    I am not sure WvW rewards need more liquid gold, because PvE (some farming maps and Fractals) are better at that and will always be better. It would like to see WvW getting better at certain rewards that are hard to get from WvW centric players, needed for WvW specific milestones, like Mystic Coins and Fine Material bundles needed for crafting legendary armour. A weekly vendor for buying Mystic Coins, the rare Mist Warped bundles, skirmish tickets and Grandmaster Mark shards for Badges or/and Memories would be nice. You could impose limits on how many per week could be bought, protecting "the economy" and also do not allow veterans to sink in all their tens of thousands of Badges at once.

  • I think making some way to incrementally earn a Commander Tag that is not liquid gold would also be a good idea. Earning 300g in WvW takes an eternity. Perhaps you could trade in the Emblems of the Avenger/Conqueror for some item like the Capacitive Bottle that you can use when capturing objectives to complete a collection or something.

    If they are concerned about the lack of WvW commanders, give people some way of actually getting a tag by gaining experience in WvW. Even make it only usable in WvW, like the mentor tag is only usable in PvE.