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Question about rotations?

rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited July 25, 2020 in PVP

Since I am currently stuck without a pc or internet connection, I enjoy browsing the forums quite a bit to get my gw2 fix. Especially the topics that include proper rotations since I feel it's becoming a forgotten skill these days.

Conquest is a complex mode, and just playing it like deathmatch has become more of a viable option for the new generation of pvp'ers with access to elite specs. However rotations can still counter alot of mistakes and drawbacks, and most importantly really help your team win the hard matches - all in all it's still the #1 thing that helps you improve your winrate no matter your mechanical prowess.

My philosophy is that there are always an optimal rotation for any scenario, so I will give it my all and try to explain my logic in the simplest way possible.

So if you have any questions/scenarios you wonder what would be the proper rotation, don't hesitate to ask!

I am sure we have many good players who can chime in if they feel my advice is bad, I just wanted a thread where everyone can join and any critisism just ensures the answer you get will be better :)

<1

Comments

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In ranked u need to know 2 kinds of rotations- 1.) splits, basically which spread your team will take ex.) 1 home 3 mid and 1 far and who will take these rotation 2.) whatever is the winning optimal rotation, can be class based or role based rotation based on your splits ex.) take far and if no one contest rotate to help team or a objective. This can also just be “we only need 1 node to win this, so rotate to that node and just die on point if you have to”

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    In ranked u need to know 2 kinds of rotations- 1.) splits, basically which spread your team will take ex.) 1 home 3 mid and 1 far and who will take these rotation 2.) whatever is the winning optimal rotation, can be class based or role based rotation based on your splits ex.) take far and if no one contest rotate to help team or a objective. This can also just be “we only need 1 node to win this, so rotate to that node and just die on point if you have to”

    Yeah these are important to recognise. In my experience most seem to struggle when things do not go according to plan, aka when normally good plays go bad.

    But yeah it's kind of like rolling 2 dice, betting on the midrange of all possible results will increase your chances of a win because there are more favourable outcomes in that range - the same applies for rotations especially if you don't know your team, better to play it safe ^^

    You also need the impact to follow through on your rotations (atleast most of the time), this is what makes builds meta. So wholeheartedly agree you need to know your role to do make the most of your map presence.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    Rotations are very seriously a system designed around the use of blatant common sense.

    Nothing more needs to be said.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    Quiz time!

    Scenario:

    • You are down 450-480
    • You own home and mid
    • Enemy owns far

    What is the correct play for:

    • Your teamfighter?
    • Your support?
    • Your duelist?
    • Your roamer?

    Bonus question:
    Why is this moment in the match so important?

    (I can post more of these after someone comes with a suggestion if anyone find these helpful)

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    There is no way to actually rotations. Rotations are common sense.

    If you have a lot of common sense, rotations come naturally. If you do not, you'll always be bad at conquest.

    Indeed it's pure logic if you know all the factors, but not all are used to reading the minimap, counting death timers or making time-sensitive decisions. I believe however that with hammering in some basic rules and evoking thought we can all start to improve one game at a time. It's all about perspective and motivation, and I believe I speak for most when I say winning games is fun ^^

  • @rng.1024 said:
    Quiz time!

    Scenario:

    • You are down 450-480
    • You own home and mid
    • Enemy owns far

    What is the correct play for:

    • Your teamfighter?
    • Your support?
    • Your duelist?
    • Your roamer?

    Bonus question:
    Why is this moment in the match so important?

    I mean, it definately depends on where the ennemies are located. You need to play 2.5 nodes at least, so for instance if their whole team is standing on far your best bet is to try to get two kills in the mess with everyone there xD

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    There is no way to actually rotations. Rotations are common sense.

    If you have a lot of common sense, rotations come naturally. If you do not, you'll always be bad at conquest.

    Indeed it's pure logic if you know all the factors. But I believe that with hammering in some basic rules and evoking thought we can all start to improve one game at a time. It's all about perspective and motivation, and I believe I speak for most when I say winning games is fun ^^

    I actually think you're doing it the right way in this thread with a quiz type question set. You can't really set rules of thumb for rotations. Believe me, many have tried, including myself while writing this thread -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest

    The problem with trying to provide new players a rules of thumb list for rotations, is that while you are trying to design that list, you realize it cannot be done. Rotations are like a mixture of 1) A players raw knowledge & experience of the game & current meta, and 2) The speed of their common sense to calculate ahead while using that information, as to what their next action or two will result in. When you REALLY sit down and try to make a list of do's and do nots for rotations, it just cannot be done because no matter what you write as a do or don't, there are always circumstances that can change those rules of thumbs, and they often do.

    In other words, a list of rules is limiting and deceiving for new players. The best we can really do for them, is explain to them some very basic fundamentals about their job role, and when to stomp or cleave, or when to revive or let someone die, ect ect, and that at all costs they should try to survive in the match rather than meat grind. Beyond that, making them ask questions and think about things situationally, like your quiz there, seems to be the best way to teach people. So rather than teach them rules, you are getting them to utilize problem solving skills in general, while looking at some said given circumstance, rather than tunnel visioning some kitten someone told them about how a Thief should always push far. If you see what I mean. Those fast problem solving skills & mental calculations of the current circumstance <- That right there is what rotations are really all about and new players can never grasp that if they are left clinging onto rules of thumb that aren't even necessarily true all of the time.

    But yeah, looking at how you laid down a quiz with a hypothetical situation, that's a good way to go about it. Rather than give them answers, get them to start asking the right questions: I had never thought about laying it out like that before.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    @Antioche.7034 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Quiz time!

    Scenario:

    • You are down 450-480
    • You own home and mid
    • Enemy owns far

    What is the correct play for:

    • Your teamfighter?
    • Your support?
    • Your duelist?
    • Your roamer?

    Bonus question:
    Why is this moment in the match so important?

    I mean, it definately depends on where the ennemies are located. You need to play 2.5 nodes at least, so for instance if their whole team is standing on far your best bet is to try to get two kills in the mess with everyone there xD

    Thank you so much for answering, the anticipation was killing me!

    I believe you speak for many how this is what goes through your head in the moment. The problem with doing that is though is you hinge it all on a few of the enemy players going down - which might not end up being the case. What more can you do as a team to give yourselves the absolute highest chance for success? ^^

    (No wrong answers here)

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    There is no way to actually rotations. Rotations are common sense.

    If you have a lot of common sense, rotations come naturally. If you do not, you'll always be bad at conquest.

    Indeed it's pure logic if you know all the factors. But I believe that with hammering in some basic rules and evoking thought we can all start to improve one game at a time. It's all about perspective and motivation, and I believe I speak for most when I say winning games is fun ^^

    I actually think you're doing it the right way in this thread with a quiz type question set. You can't really set rules of thumb for rotations. Believe me, many have tried, including myself while writing this thread -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest

    The problem with trying to provide new players a rules of thumb list for rotations, is that while you are trying to design that list, you realize it cannot be done. Rotations are like a mixture of 1) A players raw knowledge & experience of the game & current meta, and 2) The speed of their common sense to calculate ahead while using that information, as to what their next action or two will result in. When you REALLY sit down and try to make a list of do's and do nots for rotations, it just cannot be done because no matter what you write as a do or don't, there are always circumstances that can change those rules of thumbs, and they often do.

    In other words, a list of rules is limiting and deceiving for new players. The best we can really do for them, is explain to them some very basic fundamentals about their job role, and when to stomp or cleave, or when to revive or let someone die, ect ect, and that at all costs they should try to survive in the match rather than meat grind. Beyond that, making them ask questions and think about things situationally, like your quiz there, seems to be the best way to teach people. So rather than teach them rules, you are getting them to utilize problem solving skills in general, while looking at some said given circumstance, rather than tunnel visioning some kitten someone told them about how a Thief should always push far. If you see what I mean. Those fast problem solving skills & mental calculations of the current circumstance <- That right there is what rotations are really all about and new players can never grasp that if they are left clinging onto rules of thumb that aren't even necessarily true all of the time.

    But yeah, looking at how you laid down a quiz with a hypothetical situation, that's a good way to go about it. Rather than give them answers, get them to start asking the right questions: I had never thought about laying it out like that before.

    It kind of just spurred from impatience on my end I must admit, but you might be right.

    I don't see rotations as hard rules at all actually, you always have to look at the situations handed to you - aslong as you don't pick the worst choice you are bound to improve so what to do and what not to do are two sides of the same coin.

    Thinking while playing. Perhaps this is what we need to encourage. I quite enjoy the quiz style so I wouldn't mind posting only those from now on if people are interested and feel it helps! :)

    Great feedback, much appreciated Trevor ^^

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    There is no way to actually rotations. Rotations are common sense.

    If you have a lot of common sense, rotations come naturally. If you do not, you'll always be bad at conquest.

    Indeed it's pure logic if you know all the factors. But I believe that with hammering in some basic rules and evoking thought we can all start to improve one game at a time. It's all about perspective and motivation, and I believe I speak for most when I say winning games is fun ^^

    I actually think you're doing it the right way in this thread with a quiz type question set. You can't really set rules of thumb for rotations. Believe me, many have tried, including myself while writing this thread -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest

    The problem with trying to provide new players a rules of thumb list for rotations, is that while you are trying to design that list, you realize it cannot be done. Rotations are like a mixture of 1) A players raw knowledge & experience of the game & current meta, and 2) The speed of their common sense to calculate ahead while using that information, as to what their next action or two will result in. When you REALLY sit down and try to make a list of do's and do nots for rotations, it just cannot be done because no matter what you write as a do or don't, there are always circumstances that can change those rules of thumbs, and they often do.

    In other words, a list of rules is limiting and deceiving for new players. The best we can really do for them, is explain to them some very basic fundamentals about their job role, and when to stomp or cleave, or when to revive or let someone die, ect ect, and that at all costs they should try to survive in the match rather than meat grind. Beyond that, making them ask questions and think about things situationally, like your quiz there, seems to be the best way to teach people. So rather than teach them rules, you are getting them to utilize problem solving skills in general, while looking at some said given circumstance, rather than tunnel visioning some kitten someone told them about how a Thief should always push far. If you see what I mean. Those fast problem solving skills & mental calculations of the current circumstance <- That right there is what rotations are really all about and new players can never grasp that if they are left clinging onto rules of thumb that aren't even necessarily true all of the time.

    But yeah, looking at how you laid down a quiz with a hypothetical situation, that's a good way to go about it. Rather than give them answers, get them to start asking the right questions: I had never thought about laying it out like that before.

    I’m not the op, but I believe telling some examples of rotations can be helpful to new players, some of whom may have done pve or looked up enough about their class or build to understand their own mechanics and even the meta fairly well, but that doesn’t mean that they already have a sense for the map itself or what will win their matches since our pvp is fairly different from other common games like mobas. What the op is saying can so far can give them an idea of what’s important in pvp that they may have not known for thousands of matches until a high level player points out that they shouldn’t have abandoned the 1 node they needed to win or that they don’t need to Zerg far for kills if they already own half the map. Or in this case if they can look at the map and predict an outcome they will have a better understanding of why they won or lost which leads to less frustration and more opportunities to learn.

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:
    Quiz time!

    Scenario:

    • You are down 450-480
    • You own home and mid
    • Enemy owns far

    What is the correct play for:

    • Your teamfighter?
    • Your support?
    • Your duelist?
    • Your roamer?

    Bonus question:
    Why is this moment in the match so important?

    (I can post more of these after someone comes with a suggestion if anyone find these helpful)

    Depends on deaths on both teams, but I would say roamer should catch up the enemy roamer, duelist should take a look at mid, but goes with rest on far and trys to get the decap

    Idk I can sidenode but I have actually no clue

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Avatar.3568 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Quiz time!

    Scenario:

    • You are down 450-480
    • You own home and mid
    • Enemy owns far

    What is the correct play for:

    • Your teamfighter?
    • Your support?
    • Your duelist?
    • Your roamer?

    Bonus question:
    Why is this moment in the match so important?

    (I can post more of these after someone comes with a suggestion if anyone find these helpful)

    Depends on deaths on both teams, but I would say roamer should catch up the enemy roamer, duelist should take a look at mid, but goes with rest on far and trys to get the decap

    Idk I can sidenode but I have actually no clue

    Side noders often find high value in taking an aggressive position or at least much more than afking on an uncontested node. So if your team goes far to team fight and there’s no value in defending mid as hypothetically say the entire other team is bunkering home- the side noders optimal rotation would be adding pressure to far or taking advantage of objectives like beast which may give you the winning points or even the sword buff if the enemy team will just Rez themselves over and over. I’d say if you need beast to win the best person to go for it is a side noder, then the roamer which maybe better suited for stealing it from enemies and then as a last resort your team fight dps like a reaper if that is the deciding move.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    @Avatar.3568 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Quiz time!

    Scenario:

    • You are down 450-480
    • You own home and mid
    • Enemy owns far

    What is the correct play for:

    • Your teamfighter?
    • Your support?
    • Your duelist?
    • Your roamer?

    Bonus question:
    Why is this moment in the match so important?

    (I can post more of these after someone comes with a suggestion if anyone find these helpful)

    Depends on deaths on both teams, but I would say roamer should catch up the enemy roamer, duelist should take a look at mid, but goes with rest on far and trys to get the decap

    Idk I can sidenode but I have actually no clue

    You are onto something there! :) However it is just as important at this stage of the game that you keep both of your nodes in order to win since with 1 cap each the enemy still wins. What is the best way to defend them?

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    Solution:

    Let's take a look at the status quo. For every point the enemy team gets, you get double. They need 20 points to win, meaning by that time you will have gotten 20×2=40 points.

    Looking at your score that means the game will end (450+40)490-500. Decapping that node is therefore a win-condition (necessary action in order to win a match) and the entire enemy team knows it.

    It's all hands on deck now to get that point decapped quick because all the enemy has to do to win is to all defend their home.

    Teamfighter:
    The teamfighter needs to go far. Simply because you need kills there and the more node pressure the better. The teamfight will happen there.

    Support:
    The support should always follow a teamfighter and be in every teamfight to support, which is indeed what is going to be the case at far and they're going to need lots of it to sustain the full force of the enemy team.

    Duelist:
    The correct play is for the duelist (just 1 if you have more) to stay behind, guarding mid with an eye on home.

    • Why mid?
      Because mid is closer to their respawn, so if he sees someone go close he can follow - this means the enemy team has to send 2 players to decap mid instead of 1 roamer f.ex that can get to mid real fast and decap while the duelists tries to run there from home.

    • Why the duelist?
      Because duelist builds are generally better at holding a cap while surviving on the node than roamer builds. That is his job now, to see which node the enemy goes for and contest it (meaning he has to abandon the other node).

    Roamer:
    The roamer needs to help spike down targets at far. In the scenario the enemy team sends 2 players for mid and your home - which is a bad play - the roamer will have an easy 4v3 at far and should go guard mid the moment they get 1 down at far. If the enemy team is smart they will all be at far, and this is when the duelist should come aswell (since no fear of decaps) and it becomes the roamers responsibility to keep an eye on mid (since it is the closest node from far and he is faster than the duelist).

    \\\\\\\\\\o//////////////////////////////

    These rotations allow for the absolute highest chance of success in this scenario while it should also give you some general info and reasoning of conquest roles. I admit this might be a little tl;dr for many, so I will make the next one shorter and simpler :)

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    You should make quizzes with minimap examples and team compositions/timers/score... (even tweaked or photoshoped for the purpose of the exercise) like actual homework.

    [Edit: forgot about your material issue, but i think it would be nice otherwise]

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    You should make quizzes with minimap examples and team compositions/timers/score... (even tweaked or photoshoped for the purpose of the exercise) like actual homework.

    [Edit: forgot about your material issue, but i think it would be nice otherwise]

    That could be fun! Always thought visible learning is easier, and especially more applicaple here since you see the situations on your own minimap often f.ex.

    Problem is I'm not sure if there is enough interest as this method of showcasing only gets better with more participants like a seminar ^^

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    Quiz #2!

    Scenario:

    • There is a 3v3 going on at mid
    • You, as a duelist, just got bested 1v1 on your home node
    • The node is enemy capped
    • Your thief comes in, gets the kill which in turn rallies you

    What should you do next? :o

    Bonus question: What is the 2nd thing you should do and why?

    (Anyone can come with suggestions, any answers that are suboptimal we will explain why :) )

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    @rng.1024 said:
    Quiz #2!

    Scenario:

    • There is a 3v3 going on at mid
    • You, as a duelist, just got bested 1v1 on your home node
    • The node is enemy capped
    • Your thief comes in, gets the kill which in turn rallies you

    What should you do next? :o

    Bonus question: What is the 2nd thing you should do and why?

    (Anyone can come with suggestions, any answers that are suboptimal we will explain why :) )

    Hmmm... i'd say decap home, move to 5v4 mid for fast wipe (if ennemy has rotated), then someone should get back home to recap it, 2 stay mid finish the downed while you move far and thief +1 for trying fast decap (if ennemy stayed far to guard it and if other duellist hasn't respawned yet), then gtfo to regroup somewhere between mid/close.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Quiz #2!

    Scenario:

    • There is a 3v3 going on at mid
    • You, as a duelist, just got bested 1v1 on your home node
    • The node is enemy capped
    • Your thief comes in, gets the kill which in turn rallies you

    What should you do next? :o

    Bonus question: What is the 2nd thing you should do and why?

    (Anyone can come with suggestions, any answers that are suboptimal we will explain why :) )

    Hmmm... i'd say decap home, move to 5v4 mid for fast wipe (if ennemy has rotated), then someone should get back home to recap it, 2 stay mid finish the downed while you move far and thief +1 for trying fast decap (if ennemy stayed far to guard it and if other duellist hasn't respawned yet), then gtfo to regroup somewhere between mid/close.

    That is alot of ifs :astonished:

    And who (you or thief)should do what? Is there a way to make your rotations more time - and therefore score - efficient?

    You are touching on something I planned on bringing up in this solution (good catch! :) ) which is; Is there an optimal way for you to rotate here that allows you to pretty much disregard what the enemy team chooses to do?

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:
    Quiz #2!

    Scenario:

    • There is a 3v3 going on at mid
    • You, as a duelist, just got bested 1v1 on your home node
    • The node is enemy capped
    • Your thief comes in, gets the kill which in turn rallies you

    What should you do next? :o

    Bonus question: What is the 2nd thing you should do and why?

    (Anyone can come with suggestions, any answers that are suboptimal we will explain why :) )

    As ranger, I would go mid, do my lb5 and try to get one downed, maybe even with full kill, and than far if it's free

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    @Avatar.3568 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Quiz #2!

    Scenario:

    • There is a 3v3 going on at mid
    • You, as a duelist, just got bested 1v1 on your home node
    • The node is enemy capped
    • Your thief comes in, gets the kill which in turn rallies you

    What should you do next? :o

    Bonus question: What is the 2nd thing you should do and why?

    (Anyone can come with suggestions, any answers that are suboptimal we will explain why :) )

    As ranger, I would go mid, do my lb5 and try to get one downed, maybe even with full kill, and than far if it's free

    It's makes sense going mid doesn't it?

    Is there something you could do here that would improve your score-gain on top of winning fights? Those few extra points might make the difference.

    And what should the thief do?

    (You have no idea how happy I get over your replies, I almost can't wait all day to post the solution! :) )

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    Solution:

    Let's look at the status quo. We know 3 enemies are at mid and you just killed 1 on your home node. Unless you can spot the last one on the minimap, chances are he is guarding far.

    First off you should let the thief rotate off while you capture the point.

    • Why the thief? Because he can get to mid faster than you, also outnumbering an ongoing fight spiking low targets is what he does best.
    • Why should you cap the node? We already know the node can be capped before the defeated enemy respawns, and outnumbering any fight with more than 1 player is in general a bad idea. It's the thief's responsibility to swing the midfight now.

    Now what is your next move? You should always assume the enemy team make perfect rotations, this way whatever you do will have some impact.

    The respawning player has 2 options now:
    He knows close is guarded and that you guys can now freely run over to mid, so the correct play for him is to rush mid as fast as possible to equalize the fight.

    • Why not go far again? Because then he dooms his teammates at mid which allows your team to zerg home and kill him right after - this is called a dead rotation (where you benefit for a brief moment only to be at a massive disadvantage later on).

    You are therefore not needed in mid. Home is yours and the optimal rotation is therefore to push far.

    • Why not defend your point? Because you know where all the enemy players are (no need to guard an unagressed node), and the thief makes sure mid is won. By going far you can start agressing the player holding it well knowing the thief should be on his way the moment they get a kill in mid. Even if the respawning player decaps your home again you will have a winning 2- cap and the rest of your team should already be on it.

    //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    This example showcases how you can keep a winning position while sweeping across the map - a move often referred to as snowballing. It may be really tempting to join the midfight, but that could cost you both sidenodes which is called an over-rotation (sending more players than necessary to a fight, leaving your other nodes vulnerable to decaps).

    Instead here you can be sure you will come out with a 2-cap no matter what the enemy does and give your team the best possible chance to win both engagements as quickly as possible.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If you enjoy these, please give this a thumbs up so I can get some idea how many are following this thread :)

    If you want I can post several each day with a few hours before the solution, but I think discussing is more beneficial as I want you to think about rotations.

    And as always, if you have a question please please don't hesitate to post your own!

    (BIG thanks to those who have dared participate so far, you can be assured many are thinking the same thing while playing!)

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    Quiz #3!

    Scenario:

    • Game starts
    • Everyone on your team goes far :astonished:

    What do you do?

    Bonus question:
    Why is your decision important even this early in the match?

  • Highlie.7641Highlie.7641 Member ✭✭✭

    "Why the thief? Because he can get to mid faster than you, also outnumbering an ongoing fight spiking low targets is what he does best."

    There are two reasons, On the off chance the thief does go mid and there is no one low enough to spike, he has the option to go far, since it was 3vs3 on mid, there person capping home is half way back to mid at this point. If the thief decaps and goes spawn, there is a slim chance he can force the respawned to mid, If not the thief can still create a 5on4.

    Who the hell wants to play boring kitten hopscotch though, That kitten's for brainless zombies drooling on there keyboards.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    @Highlie.7641 said:
    "Why the thief? Because he can get to mid faster than you, also outnumbering an ongoing fight spiking low targets is what he does best."

    There are two reasons, On the off chance the thief does go mid and there is no one low enough to spike, he has the option to go far, since it was 3vs3 on mid, there person capping home is half way back to mid at this point. If the thief decaps and goes spawn, there is a slim chance he can force the respawned to mid, If not the thief can still create a 5on4.

    Who the hell wants to play boring kitten hopscotch though, That kitten's for brainless zombies drooling on there keyboards.

    It's those slim chances you need to eliminate to consistently win your matches.

    Sure the thief can do that but not only do you risk losing caps, it relies on the thief to not make any wrong decisions - which not all thieves are able to do. The midfight can also swing long before the duelist gets there and you (the thief) is at far, so you run a great risk.

    This is why proper rotations are so important as good teams will punish you every single time you take a risk ^^

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:
    Quiz #3!

    Scenario:

    • Game starts
    • Everyone on your team goes far :astonished:

    What do you do?

    Bonus question:
    Why is your decision important even this early in the match?

    Haaaa this one cracked me up! Also, imagine if all of your teammates were core necros! II play either support or bunker sidenode so I would just /gg =)

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2020

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Quiz #3!

    Scenario:

    • Game starts
    • Everyone on your team goes far :astonished:

    What do you do?

    Bonus question:
    Why is your decision important even this early in the match?

    Haaaa this one cracked me up! Also, imagine if all of your teammates were core necros! II play either support or bunker sidenode so I would just /gg =)

    Yeah this is quite a common scenario we've all experienced at some point :p

    I believe many would /gg with you here because it is a terrible play, but sometimes you just have to make the best out of a bad situation since the match is still very much winnable!

    All core necros.. I can work with that :astonished:

  • Hiin.5137Hiin.5137 Member ✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:
    Quiz #3!

    Scenario:

    • Game starts
    • Everyone on your team goes far :astonished:

    What do you do?

    Bonus question:
    Why is your decision important even this early in the match?

    I play Support Scourge so I should be in teamfight, but in this case perhaps I will go home to cap the node and hold/kite in case the opponents leave 1 mid to cap and send multiple players into home node.

  • Garret.1965Garret.1965 Member ✭✭

    1st rotation: unranked.

    2nd rotation: full 5 man squad of pwr shatter chronos.

    3rd rotation: 5x blink bursts.

    4th rotation: continue to burst.

    5th rotation: spawn camp the enemy team.

    6th rotation: receive bms and win by 400+ points.

    Rotations are ez.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Garret.1965 said:
    1st rotation: unranked.

    2nd rotation: full 5 man squad of pwr shatter chronos.

    3rd rotation: 5x blink bursts.

    4th rotation: continue to burst.

    5th rotation: spawn camp the enemy team.

    6th rotation: receive bms and win by 400+ points.

    Rotations are ez.

    Pretty sure you could win with kills alone on that comp.. :s

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    @Hiin.5137 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Quiz #3!

    Scenario:

    • Game starts
    • Everyone on your team goes far :astonished:

    What do you do?

    Bonus question:
    Why is your decision important even this early in the match?

    I play Support Scourge so I should be in teamfight, but in this case perhaps I will go home to cap the node and hold/kite in case the opponents leave 1 mid to cap and send multiple players into home node.

    I see this quite a bit, and the logic of splitting the enemy team is sound.

    The downside is that they might need you to support and you can very much be zerged on far from your teammates - which makes it an incredibly risky rotation.

    A good player will see you at close and simpy opt to 5v4 the rest of your team and not bother engaging you (giving them mid for free aswell).

    This is why it's a dead rotation: If the enemy team is good they will 5v4 far, then cap mid and come for you. You might be able to hold the cap for 10+ seconds but your entire team will wipe and the other team will control the whole map with atleast a 2-cap because you aren't included in the equation (if they all wipe you will need to hold it for 42 seconds to get any value!). You are probably the most important player on your team - they simply can't afford having you stuck on an unagressed node.

    Is there something you can do where the enemy team's decision won't put you at a disadvantage? ^^

    (You already said it yourself actually.. ;) )

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    Solution:

    Always take a look at status quo. The most common split (initial allocation of players across the map) is to send 1 to home. This means at any other node, in this case your mid and your close, you will be heavily outnumbered.

    The correct rotation is therefore to stick with your team and go far. Very often you will see players going elsewhere and die quickly, allowing the enemy team to stagger (constantly 5v4 due to respawns) you which is really bad on maps like Battle of Khylo because there is no secondary mechanic to make up for it.

    The other reason going far is beneficial, is because you can extremely quickly get the one kill and instantly move towards mid - hopefully before it caps fully. The enemy team are now only 4 players on the map so you have an excellent chance of winning the midfight and reclaiming home right after for total map control following a rocky start.

    //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    As you might have begun to notice, use your rotations as a tool to remove options from the enemy team. Even better sometimes you can leave them with only bad ones, and this ensures you always have the upper hand score-wise. This in turn builds a cushion of points in case someone on your team messes up, and punishes the enemy for making risky (suboptimal) plays.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    Quiz #4!

    Scenario:

    • You are playing on Forest Of Niflhel
    • You have just bested (stomped) another duelist on far and proceeded to capture the node.
    • Svanir and Chieftain spawns

    Should you go for beast here?

    Bonus question:
    Why do some secondary objectives matter more than others?

    (I know there are alot if duelist scenarios, but the reason being that you will find yourself in these situations regardless in lower tiers. I promise the next one will be a teamfighter or support ^^)

  • Highlie.7641Highlie.7641 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Highlie.7641 said:
    "Why the thief? Because he can get to mid faster than you, also outnumbering an ongoing fight spiking low targets is what he does best."

    There are two reasons, On the off chance the thief does go mid and there is no one low enough to spike, he has the option to go far, since it was 3vs3 on mid, there person capping home is half way back to mid at this point. If the thief decaps and goes spawn, there is a slim chance he can force the respawned to mid, If not the thief can still create a 5on4.

    Who the hell wants to play boring kitten hopscotch though, That kitten's for brainless zombies drooling on there keyboards.

    It's those slim chances you need to eliminate to consistently win your matches.

    Sure the thief can do that but not only do you risk losing caps, it relies on the thief to not make any wrong decisions - which not all thieves are able to do. The midfight can also swing long before the duelist gets there and you (the thief) is at far, so you run a great risk.

    This is why proper rotations are so important as good teams will punish you every single time you take a risk ^^

    Your not going to lose anything

    its 3on3 on mid, one on far and one home, There is 0 chances to lose anything. the "slim chance" is there are no targets to burst....

    Edit** had mid instead of home.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    @Highlie.7641 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Highlie.7641 said:
    "Why the thief? Because he can get to mid faster than you, also outnumbering an ongoing fight spiking low targets is what he does best."

    There are two reasons, On the off chance the thief does go mid and there is no one low enough to spike, he has the option to go far, since it was 3vs3 on mid, there person capping home is half way back to mid at this point. If the thief decaps and goes spawn, there is a slim chance he can force the respawned to mid, If not the thief can still create a 5on4.

    Who the hell wants to play boring kitten hopscotch though, That kitten's for brainless zombies drooling on there keyboards.

    It's those slim chances you need to eliminate to consistently win your matches.

    Sure the thief can do that but not only do you risk losing caps, it relies on the thief to not make any wrong decisions - which not all thieves are able to do. The midfight can also swing long before the duelist gets there and you (the thief) is at far, so you run a great risk.

    This is why proper rotations are so important as good teams will punish you every single time you take a risk ^^

    Your not going to lose anything

    its 3on3 on mid, one on far and one home, There is 0 chances to lose anything. the "slim chance" is there are no targets to burst....

    Edit** had mid instead of home.

    What if the guy the thief killed just runs to your home again?

    Mid stays decapped, home gets lost and the thief is in an unfavourable matchup at far - you leave way to much up to circumstance and your teammates this way, forcing your team to respond to what the enemy does instead of controlling the map.

    Any decent duelist will hold the far cap against a thief.

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    @rng.1024 said:
    Quiz #4!

    Scenario:

    • You are playing on Forest Of Niflhel
    • You have just bested (stomped) another duelist on far and proceeded to capture the node.
    • Svanir and Chieftain spawns

    Should you go for beast here?

    Bonus question:
    Why do some secondary objectives matter more than others?

    (I know there are alot if duelist scenarios, but the reason being that you will find yourself in these situations regardless in lower tiers. I promise the next one will be a teamfighter or support ^^)

    Look minimap, if thief is close and enemy's fighting under mid I go help team if kill is possible, if not I stay at kite position on the higher ground and chill far as long my team Is winning mid close, defend point in 1vs1, kite or run away if 1vs2, and

    if they do beast try to steal

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Of course, it varies. In random, normally sending 4 mid and 1 home is the best start. 1 going far is a gamble, which rarely works. If you have a decapper, they can go decap and go back mid or intercept someone going home. If you have 2 points, it is usually much better strategy to go hold these 2 points and send someone with high mobility to decap far and try to delay. I think people sometimes miss, that killing people is not necessary. It is ideal, most of the time, but do not get carried away in chasing.

    Worst strategy is to assume you are better than the enemy team before combat even starts.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    @Avatar.3568 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Quiz #4!

    Scenario:

    • You are playing on Forest Of Niflhel
    • You have just bested (stomped) another duelist on far and proceeded to capture the node.
    • Svanir and Chieftain spawns

    Should you go for beast here?

    Bonus question:
    Why do some secondary objectives matter more than others?

    (I know there are alot if duelist scenarios, but the reason being that you will find yourself in these situations regardless in lower tiers. I promise the next one will be a teamfighter or support ^^)

    Look minimap, if thief is close and enemy's fighting under mid I go help team if kill is possible, if not I stay at kite position on the higher ground and chill far as long my team Is winning mid close, defend point in 1vs1, kite or run away if 1vs2, and

    if they do beast try to steal

    Looking at the minimap here is excellent advice! :)

    As far as I can tell you'd rather rotate off, followed by defending the node and only go beast if they do?

    This is good - you are considering many factors. However you are basing your reactions on what the enemy does, is there anything you can do here to force their hand instead?

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    @otto.5684 said:
    Of course, it varies. In random, normally sending 4 mid and 1 home is the best start. 1 going far is a gamble, which rarely works. If you have a decapper, they can go decap and go back mid or intercept someone going home. If you have 2 points, it is usually much better strategy to go hold these 2 points and send someone with high mobility to decap far and try to delay. I think people sometimes miss, that killing people is not necessary. It is ideal, most of the time, but do not get carried away in chasing.

    Worst strategy is to assume you are better than the enemy team before combat even starts.

    Indeed, the higher rated the games the less kills overall and the team with better rotations will win the game.

    Deciding how many nodes to play is also very important, and something I plan to bring up in a future quiz ^^

    The general advice of playing 2 nodes and sending a decapper far is also suboptimal yet quite effective against weaker teams. It is waaaay better than any the other alternatives though (1 node or 3 nodes coupled with bad rotations), which is why it has the reputation of a "safe" play.

  • Highlie.7641Highlie.7641 Member ✭✭✭

    What if the guy the thief killed just runs to your home again?

    Mid stays decapped, home gets lost and the thief is in an unfavourable matchup at far - you leave way to much up to circumstance and your teammates this way, forcing your team to respond to what the enemy does instead of controlling the map.

    Any decent duelist will hold the far cap against a thief.

    you don't understand.... Mid is decapped, your home is capped (thiefs team) and the enemeys is decapped. The thief isn't in an unfavourable posistion at all. since he went respawn, he's already got most of the respawner's abilities on CD by the time they even reach the point. OR the dudes tried to turn and fight the thief. it's a win win in both situations.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Of course, it varies. In random, normally sending 4 mid and 1 home is the best start. 1 going far is a gamble, which rarely works. If you have a decapper, they can go decap and go back mid or intercept someone going home. If you have 2 points, it is usually much better strategy to go hold these 2 points and send someone with high mobility to decap far and try to delay. I think people sometimes miss, that killing people is not necessary. It is ideal, most of the time, but do not get carried away in chasing.

    Worst strategy is to assume you are better than the enemy team before combat even starts.

    Indeed, the higher rated the games the less kills overall and the team with better rotations will win the game.

    Deciding how many nodes to play is also very important, and something I plan to bring up in a future quiz ^^

    The general advice of playing 2 nodes and sending a decapper far is also suboptimal yet quite effective against weaker teams. It is waaaay better than any the other alternatives though (1 node or 3 nodes coupled with bad rotations), which is why it has the reputation of a "safe" play.

    My personal experience, unless you have co-ordinates team, it is easier for people to play it safe. Just stick to mid and home and try to decap far, if possible. It is also the best strategy to prevent snow bowling when losing. It will not win you games when out gunned, but guaranteed win if you have the upper hand. I dislike it when people who have no business going far, start to doing that. It splits our team's efforts and puts us at disadvantage while losing.

    To emphasize, this is not a carry strategy. It is one that results in the least loses and the best play experience when losing, unless you are completely out gunned.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    @otto.5684 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Of course, it varies. In random, normally sending 4 mid and 1 home is the best start. 1 going far is a gamble, which rarely works. If you have a decapper, they can go decap and go back mid or intercept someone going home. If you have 2 points, it is usually much better strategy to go hold these 2 points and send someone with high mobility to decap far and try to delay. I think people sometimes miss, that killing people is not necessary. It is ideal, most of the time, but do not get carried away in chasing.

    Worst strategy is to assume you are better than the enemy team before combat even starts.

    Indeed, the higher rated the games the less kills overall and the team with better rotations will win the game.

    Deciding how many nodes to play is also very important, and something I plan to bring up in a future quiz ^^

    The general advice of playing 2 nodes and sending a decapper far is also suboptimal yet quite effective against weaker teams. It is waaaay better than any the other alternatives though (1 node or 3 nodes coupled with bad rotations), which is why it has the reputation of a "safe" play.

    My personal experience, unless you have co-ordinates team, it is easier for people to play it safe. Just stick to mid and home and try to decap far, if possible. It is also the best strategy to prevent snow bowling when losing. It will not win you games when out gunned, but guaranteed win if you have the upper hand. I dislike it when people who have no business going far, start to doing that. It splits our team's efforts and puts us at disadvantage while losing.

    To emphasize, this is not a carry strategy. It is one that results in the least loses and the best play experience when losing, unless you are completely out gunned.

    I agree, in regular ranked games this ensures your team don't put themselves at too much of an disadvantage. It takes a good team to counter this strategy, but that is the problem of playing it safe - you could win it 500-100 quick, but now you are looking at 500-300 which means alot more chances for your team to make mistakes since the game lasts longer.

    50% of the time this risk is worth taking, sure. But if you want to win as many games as possible it will lose you a significant amount of your winnable games over time due to this strategy.

    So you are completely right :)

    (Just wanted to explain why it's not a carry for those that didn't know)

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    @Highlie.7641 said:

    What if the guy the thief killed just runs to your home again?

    Mid stays decapped, home gets lost and the thief is in an unfavourable matchup at far - you leave way to much up to circumstance and your teammates this way, forcing your team to respond to what the enemy does instead of controlling the map.

    Any decent duelist will hold the far cap against a thief.

    you don't understand.... Mid is decapped, your home is capped (thiefs team) and the enemeys is decapped. The thief isn't in an unfavourable posistion at all. since he went respawn, he's already got most of the respawner's abilities on CD by the time they even reach the point. OR the dudes tried to turn and fight the thief. it's a win win in both situations.

    You are assuming the thief ran straigt to far (which we know is guarded) and got the decap, then ran back to close - what if he can't get the decap?

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Solution:

    You should absolutely not go for beast here.

    • Why? Because it takes a few seconds to decap, and 5+ to fully capture the node. The guy you killed is now nearly respawned and can easily reach you before you can kill the beast to steal it, or even worse decap his home node instead.

    By holding the node doing beast is out of the question for your respawned opponent. The enemy team will now have to send another player to your third of the map (which you fully control) in order to stop bleeding points which can only benefit your team elsewhere.

    It is never worth doing beast at the cost of a node, since the players doing them have no map presence (score impact). Doing beast is always therefore a dead rotation, which is why you always need to make sure no enemies are threatening your nodes or in range for a steal to minimize risk.

    Some secondary objectives can be ignored while still allowing you to win the game with a 2-cap, like

    • Djinn's Dominion
    • Eternal Coliseum
    • Forest of Niflhel
    • Legacy of the Foefire

    Others cannot be ignored else you will lose the match even with a consistent 2-cap, like

    • Revenge of the Capricorn
    • Skyhammer
    • Temple of the Silent Storm

    //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    Always be careful with secondary objectives. Only do them when you have nowhere better to be on the map, but remember nodes are always more impactful. Often a secondary objective will be your win-condition, learn to recognise when that is.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    Quiz #5!

    Scenario:

    • You are a teamfighter
    • You just won the first midfight (2 enemies dead, 2 in downstate) with the help of your duelist who came in after capping close
    • Close and mid are now yours

    What should you do?

    Bonus question:
    Where should your support be?

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2020

    (This ended up being a looong motivational speech written in the late night hours, please disregard :s )

  • Hiin.5137Hiin.5137 Member ✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:
    Quiz #5!

    Scenario:

    • You are a teamfighter
    • You just won the first midfight (2 enemies dead, 2 in downstate) with the help of your duelist who came in after capping close
    • Close and mid are now yours

    What should you do?

    Bonus question:
    Where should your support be?

    ALL PUSH FAR

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Of course, it varies. In random, normally sending 4 mid and 1 home is the best start. 1 going far is a gamble, which rarely works. If you have a decapper, they can go decap and go back mid or intercept someone going home. If you have 2 points, it is usually much better strategy to go hold these 2 points and send someone with high mobility to decap far and try to delay. I think people sometimes miss, that killing people is not necessary. It is ideal, most of the time, but do not get carried away in chasing.

    Worst strategy is to assume you are better than the enemy team before combat even starts.

    Indeed, the higher rated the games the less kills overall and the team with better rotations will win the game.

    Deciding how many nodes to play is also very important, and something I plan to bring up in a future quiz ^^

    The general advice of playing 2 nodes and sending a decapper far is also suboptimal yet quite effective against weaker teams. It is waaaay better than any the other alternatives though (1 node or 3 nodes coupled with bad rotations), which is why it has the reputation of a "safe" play.

    My personal experience, unless you have co-ordinates team, it is easier for people to play it safe. Just stick to mid and home and try to decap far, if possible. It is also the best strategy to prevent snow bowling when losing. It will not win you games when out gunned, but guaranteed win if you have the upper hand. I dislike it when people who have no business going far, start to doing that. It splits our team's efforts and puts us at disadvantage while losing.

    To emphasize, this is not a carry strategy. It is one that results in the least loses and the best play experience when losing, unless you are completely out gunned.

    I agree, in regular ranked games this ensures your team don't put themselves at too much of an disadvantage. It takes a good team to counter this strategy, but that is the problem of playing it safe - you could win it 500-100 quick, but now you are looking at 500-300 which means alot more chances for your team to make mistakes since the game lasts longer.

    50% of the time this risk is worth taking, sure. But if you want to win as many games as possible it will lose you a significant amount of your winnable games over time due to this strategy.

    So you are completely right :)

    (Just wanted to explain why it's not a carry for those that didn't know)

    Ya. In losing games I want to be the one who takes the risk 😬. I don’t want a G3 necro going far. Just stick it out mid. Maintain home and contest mid. open space so highly skilled players could carry or a well skilled thief or rev to quickly decap or +1 in a less crowded fights.

    On the flip side, games with highly skilled players rarely have room for strategy. They are more likely to be determined based on class/build composition more than game player skill or strategy, sadly.

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 I'd disagree about Forest of Niflhel objective being not worth going for as there are quite a few situations when a beast kill/steal can secure a win in a neck-to-neck match up.