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How is Terror acceptable?

Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

February patch was intended to remove damage from CC yet we still have to deal with this mess. Terror is by far the most egregious of the traits which deal damage to CC'd foes. Literally every neco is using the exact same 3 utility skills: Wurm, Spectral Walk, and Spectral Ring. If Terror needs to exist, why not have it deal damage at the END of the fear as long as it wasn't cleansed/stun-broken; that way there is some way to avoid the damage. Better yet, why not have fear last longer but lose it's CC component when Terror trait is taken.

Comments

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    A CC skill that has damage will do damage even if the target has stability.

    If you fear a target with stability they take no damage.

    It is in line.

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    Damage on fear is literally a condition. It is effectively the same as 'when fear is applied, apply X condition' except it is much easier to cleanse as you only need to remove the fear. Unlike the power CC effects before the feb patch, you can stop this damage by just breaking the cc. Even a small number of stun breaks makes the trait nearly useless. How about you stop running around through spectral ring multiple times (which is really the only way this trait does good damage, given the small number of fears on necro).

  • NorthernRedStar.3054NorthernRedStar.3054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Considering a lot fears have tells to them I don't think any serious player considers Terror a big issue.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    A CC skill that has damage will do damage even if the target has stability.

    If you fear a target with stability they take no damage.

    It is in line.

    You realise that for hard CC skills, we are literally talking about like 14 crit damage in berserker gear?

    Don't see terror as an issue, but this is not really an argument here.

  • Starbreaker.6507Starbreaker.6507 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    A CC skill that has damage will do damage even if the target has stability.

    If you fear a target with stability they take no damage.

    It is in line.

    You realise that for hard CC skills, we are literally talking about like 14 crit damage in berserker gear?

    Hey now, I breached the 20 mark with a ton of might on an Earthshaker crit.

    I imagined that's what lottery winners felt like! =)

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    A CC skill that has damage will do damage even if the target has stability.

    If you fear a target with stability they take no damage.

    It is in line.

    You realise that for hard CC skills, we are literally talking about like 14 crit damage in berserker gear?

    Don't see terror as an issue, but this is not really an argument here.

    That's my whole point.

    You haven't understood.

    My point was that Terror is not an issue because if it doesn't CC (i.e. the target has stability) then no damage will happen, and no CC will happen, the same as other CC skills that land on stability.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    Fear is nothing in comparison to everything else and you don't need something that says "stunbreak" to nullify it. Considering also that Necromancer is one of the weakest profession to deal condition damage, it's not overboard at all.

    Fun fact: Thief has better Fear than Necromancer.

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    Maybe blanket nerfing all hard CC's to .01 power scaling was always a kind of stupid idea in the first place.

    Making CC's unable to critically hit would have been a better way to start.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    I feel a lot of threads these days are people coming off the back of a match they lost where they kept letting killed, looked at the death log as went "this killed me so it must be BS" and come post on the forums about it needing a change so they do t lose to it anymore.

    I'm losing to it so it must be OP and needs a nerf seems to be a more prominent trend. I mean it was always there but just seems like more of a thing these days.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Take a look at Lightning Rod, it's Terror but better (in a vacuum).

    Anyway, cmc stated you actively trait for terror so it's healthy/fine. Case closed.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2020

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    A CC skill that has damage will do damage even if the target has stability.

    If you fear a target with stability they take no damage.

    It is in line.

    You realise that for hard CC skills, we are literally talking about like 14 crit damage in berserker gear?

    Don't see terror as an issue, but this is not really an argument here.

    That's my whole point.

    You haven't understood.

    My point was that Terror is not an issue because if it doesn't CC (i.e. the target has stability) then no damage will happen, and no CC will happen, the same as other CC skills that land on stability.

    How is that the same?

    If another hard CC skill hits, then you get cced, but the skill itself still does no damage because they changed all the power coefficients to 0,01.
    If fear lands with terror on the other hand, then both cc and damage happen. Because terror makes that hard cc skill deal actual damage while other hard cc skills won't deal any.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2020

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    A CC skill that has damage will do damage even if the target has stability.

    If you fear a target with stability they take no damage.

    It is in line.

    You realise that for hard CC skills, we are literally talking about like 14 crit damage in berserker gear?

    Don't see terror as an issue, but this is not really an argument here.

    That's my whole point.

    You haven't understood.

    My point was that Terror is not an issue because if it doesn't CC (i.e. the target has stability) then no damage will happen, and no CC will happen, the same as other CC skills that land on stability.

    How is that the same?

    If another hard CC skill hits, then you get cced, but the skill itself still does no damage because they changed all the power coefficients to 0,01.
    If fear lands with terror on the other hand, then both cc and damage happen. Because terror makes that hard cc skill deal actual damage while other hard cc skills won't deal any.

    Well, sure, if you start talking about a totally different scenario, then it is no longer the same.

    But I wasn't talking about that scenario was I? Do try to follow along.

    If I say "the sky is blue" and you say "but snow is cold, you're wrong", it's like..... ummmm, yeah, okay? I wasn't talking about the temperature of snow?

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    A CC skill that has damage will do damage even if the target has stability.

    If you fear a target with stability they take no damage.

    It is in line.

    You realise that for hard CC skills, we are literally talking about like 14 crit damage in berserker gear?

    Don't see terror as an issue, but this is not really an argument here.

    That's my whole point.

    You haven't understood.

    My point was that Terror is not an issue because if it doesn't CC (i.e. the target has stability) then no damage will happen, and no CC will happen, the same as other CC skills that land on stability.

    How is that the same?

    If another hard CC skill hits, then you get cced, but the skill itself still does no damage because they changed all the power coefficients to 0,01.
    If fear lands with terror on the other hand, then both cc and damage happen. Because terror makes that hard cc skill deal actual damage while other hard cc skills won't deal any.

    Because you have to give up path of corruption for Terror it means less boon corrupting power in the necormancers kit to eat your boons.
    Fear damage requires 2 traits to be made effective from 2 different traitlines.
    Not only do you need Terror you also need Fear of death to actually make it do any damage thats relevant

    Thats two traits to make a conditional cc which has more counters than any other cc type in the game do damage for 1.5 - 2s at best.
    Fun fact did you know fear can be removed with a weapon swap (you cant remove stuns or dazes with weapon swaps) and several weapon skills that are instant can still be used while under the fear condition unlike while under hard cc like stuns /daze
    Resistance makes fear not work
    Stability also makes fear not work (i dont recommend it against necromancers)

    Maybe if you ask they will give your cc damage back the only twist is that you must take 2 traits way out of the way of what you would normally build to make them do damage.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    Maybe blanket nerfing all hard CC's to .01 power scaling was always a kind of stupid idea in the first place.

    I can only partly agree with this there were certainly some CC skills doing way too much when you get stunned for 2s and take 8k damage at the same time thats a bit insane.....

    Going no crit for the majority of them would have probably been better. Some of them certainly do need to be at the .01 power scaling though.
    Then you have the odd ball ones like Reaper 5 and Warrior Headbutt that actually certainly and more than likely should still do damage. But if we are going to keep things more in line going forward i would rather see other changes maybe if the damage is not coming back. The moment one or two professions get a nice chunk of damage back on some of the slower big tell CC's is the day people start to complain about how unfair those CC skills are.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    A CC skill that has damage will do damage even if the target has stability.

    If you fear a target with stability they take no damage.

    It is in line.

    You realise that for hard CC skills, we are literally talking about like 14 crit damage in berserker gear?

    Don't see terror as an issue, but this is not really an argument here.

    That's my whole point.

    You haven't understood.

    My point was that Terror is not an issue because if it doesn't CC (i.e. the target has stability) then no damage will happen, and no CC will happen, the same as other CC skills that land on stability.

    How is that the same?

    If another hard CC skill hits, then you get cced, but the skill itself still does no damage because they changed all the power coefficients to 0,01.
    If fear lands with terror on the other hand, then both cc and damage happen. Because terror makes that hard cc skill deal actual damage while other hard cc skills won't deal any.

    Because you have to give up path of corruption for Terror it means less boon corrupting power in the necormancers kit to eat your boons.
    Fear damage requires 2 traits to be made effective from 2 different traitlines.
    Not only do you need Terror you also need Fear of death to actually make it do any damage thats relevant

    Thats two traits to make a conditional cc which has more counters than any other cc type in the game do damage for 1.5 - 2s at best.
    Fun fact did you know fear can be removed with a weapon swap (you cant remove stuns or dazes with weapon swaps) and several weapon skills that are instant can still be used while under the fear condition unlike while under hard cc like stuns /daze
    Resistance makes fear not work
    Stability also makes fear not work (i dont recommend it against necromancers)

    Maybe if you ask they will give your cc damage back the only twist is that you must take 2 traits way out of the way of what you would normally build to make them do damage.

    I am fairly sure that instant cast abilities are castable even under hard ccs like stuns or dazes.
    Was extremely fun back then when medic gyro was an instant cast healing skill, enabling me to use my healing skill even when I was stunlocked.

    About fear getting removed by weapon swap, that surely does require a sigill, doesn't it?
    I highly doubt that weapon swap in general removes that condition.

  • Grimjack.8130Grimjack.8130 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    A CC skill that has damage will do damage even if the target has stability.

    If you fear a target with stability they take no damage.

    It is in line.

    You realise that for hard CC skills, we are literally talking about like 14 crit damage in berserker gear?

    Don't see terror as an issue, but this is not really an argument here.

    That's my whole point.

    You haven't understood.

    My point was that Terror is not an issue because if it doesn't CC (i.e. the target has stability) then no damage will happen, and no CC will happen, the same as other CC skills that land on stability.

    How is that the same?

    If another hard CC skill hits, then you get cced, but the skill itself still does no damage because they changed all the power coefficients to 0,01.
    If fear lands with terror on the other hand, then both cc and damage happen. Because terror makes that hard cc skill deal actual damage while other hard cc skills won't deal any.

    Your reading ability is in the negatives. If a Fearw/ Terror lands into someone with stability you get nothing. If a pre nerf CC hit someone with stability, it would still do 2k+ damage. If either hits someone with stability NOW, they both do 0 damage. Understand?

    I'm a well known nobody.
    Former member of [MnF], [DnT], [dP], and [Hg]. Winner of the 2018 ERP Tournament.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2020

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    February patch was intended to remove damage from CC yet we still have to deal with this mess. Terror is by far the most egregious of the traits which deal damage to CC'd foes. Literally every neco is using the exact same 3 utility skills: Wurm, Spectral Walk, and Spectral Ring. If Terror needs to exist, why not have it deal damage at the END of the fear as long as it wasn't cleansed/stun-broken; that way there is some way to avoid the damage. Better yet, why not have fear last longer but lose it's CC component when Terror trait is taken.

    Isn't that cool, you just need to memorize the functionality of only 3 skills to be able to counter "literally every necro".

    Get a freaking stunbreak! Seriously... that's competitive mode basics. And if you want to destroy that necro, then get two stuns - that's one more than he can handle.

  • Caine.8204Caine.8204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2020

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    February patch was intended to remove damage from CC yet we still have to deal with this mess. Terror is by far the most egregious of the traits which deal damage to CC'd foes. Literally every neco is using the exact same 3 utility skills: Wurm, Spectral Walk, and Spectral Ring. If Terror needs to exist, why not have it deal damage at the END of the fear as long as it wasn't cleansed/stun-broken; that way there is some way to avoid the damage. Better yet, why not have fear last longer but lose it's CC component when Terror trait is taken.

    i don't use terror, and i dont use spectral ring (never have used spectral ring). im rank 39 right now as a solo queue necro. i dont even use wurm anymore, again.... rank 39...

    you're wrong.

    terror at its peak is like an 8% damage increase for my build in a 1v1. it deals about 1k per tick, for a maximum of about 3k with 1 fear.

    3k which can be interrupted or completely negated by either stun break or condi cleanse.

    i didnt use terror or spectral ring last season either, and ended up rank 44 and rank 53. as a solo queue necro. (two accounts, both purely solo queued)

    people also complain about lich..... which i also dont use, and never used. plaguelands is better for conquest, lich is easily countered in comparison.

    im really bored of these posts complaining about every trait i don't use as a high tier necro player. if they were broken i'd be using them, but they aren't so i'm not.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caine.8204 said:
    people also complain about lich..... which i also dont use, and never used. plaguelands is better for conquest, lich is easily countered in comparison.

    I wouldn't say plaguelands is THAT MUCH better for conquest, but lich is just so easily countered.

  • Levijeh.9643Levijeh.9643 Member ✭✭

    Someone got fear chained for quite a long. And I think you play a power spec on ranger am I right?, how on earth? I think most rangers have like 3 stunbreakers on it's one of the classes that are hard to chain fear.

    CHEEKYLA

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    @Levijeh.9643 said:
    Someone got fear chained for quite a long. And I think you play a power spec on ranger am I right?, how on earth? I think most rangers have like 3 stunbreakers on it's one of the classes that are hard to chain fear.

    If you're asking ME if I take a power spec on ranger then yes: From start of HoT until about a year ago. Now ranger is booooooooring and even cheesier than when I played it.

  • Caine.8204Caine.8204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2020

    @Ovark.2514 said:

    @Levijeh.9643 said:
    Someone got fear chained for quite a long. And I think you play a power spec on ranger am I right?, how on earth? I think most rangers have like 3 stunbreakers on it's one of the classes that are hard to chain fear.

    If you're asking ME if I take a power spec on ranger then yes: From start of HoT until about a year ago. Now ranger is booooooooring and even cheesier than when I played it.

    then you really should have no issue, because necros are slow as molasses, and you have plenty of stun breaks/condi removals/evades/blocks/knockbacks/stuns.

    trait isnt even broken.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @Caine.8204 said:
    because necros are slow as molasses

    I don't know what a molasses is but it better be fast af, because the necro I know outruns mesmer

  • Caine.8204Caine.8204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Caine.8204 said:
    because necros are slow as molasses

    I don't know what a molasses is but it better be fast af, because the necro I know outruns mesmer

    the rune that buffs swiftness is not a necro-only mechanic, and they reduce their damage done by taking it instead of something else. take off their swiftness = slowest class in the game. should be pretty easy considering they only have access to like 3 boons, and two applications of swiftness altogether if they are running warhorn + spectral walk. you remove the swiftness once, and they cant apply it again for a long time.

    and dont come at me with the "they have a swiftness trait that gives it whenever they activate shroud". that competes with unblockable staff skills, and no good necro player would even bother replacing that trait.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @Caine.8204 said:

    idk about swiftness but wurm by itself is more mobility than mesmer (except mirage)

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Caine.8204 said:

    idk about swiftness but wurm by itself is more mobility than mesmer (except mirage)

    I mean you can take blink on mesmer and its essentially the same thing ?

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    I mean you can take blink on mesmer and its essentially the same thing ?

    Blink is the better utility but wurm has shorter cd

    and all necros take spectral walk too, which is also mobility

    Not to mention reaper shroud 2, death shroud 2, scourge portal (I know this one is not used) etc

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    I mean you can take blink on mesmer and its essentially the same thing ?

    Blink is the better utility but wurm has shorter cd

    its +3s and still has a trait to be -4s. Not really massive either way.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    I mean you can take blink on mesmer and its essentially the same thing ?

    Blink is the better utility but wurm has shorter cd

    and all necros take spectral walk too, which is also mobility

    Not to mention reaper shroud 2, death shroud 2, scourge portal (I know this one is not used) etc

    Condi mesmer has staff and power mesmer has multiple stealth sources which are superior to everything necro has. No necro can chase and kill a mesmer at equal skill level. I am roaming a lot with a power shatter mesmer at the 1% top end of skill and nothing can stop him from escaping while one single half decently placed speed strip wrecks my speed rune reaper for the reason you have been told: you can not re-apply it that easily on any semi viable build.

    If you run warhorn, speed of shadows and spectral walk at once you give up either important range or important damage... both is no serious option.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Condi mesmer has staff

    No it doesn't

    and power mesmer has multiple stealth sources

    No it doesn't

    which are superior to everything necro has.

    No they aren't

    Oh you expected a serious discussion? Too bad.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Condi mesmer has staff

    No it doesn't

    and power mesmer has multiple stealth sources

    No it doesn't

    which are superior to everything necro has.

    No they aren't

    Oh you expected a serious discussion? Too bad.

    Nevermind, I forgot I discussed with a bronze division player... (your thread history is proof).

    Bye, I am out of this thread.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    My point was that Terror is not an issue because if it doesn't CC (i.e. the target has stability) then no damage will happen, and no CC will happen, the same as other CC skills that land on stability.

    MOST of hard cc attacks which have high tellings and and long cooldowns do near 0 damage even if they land. Don't see WHY fear must keep both the hard cc (which can last extremely long and is spammable from different sources) AND the high damage x second which delivers.

    Terror's damage was ok before February's patch due some skills at every classes did both cc + huge damage, but is no longer fine in a context in which one can use the entirely skill roster of the Warrior's hammer and barely do a scratch to the foe due damage was nerfed as result of being linked to cc effects.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    My point was that Terror is not an issue because if it doesn't CC (i.e. the target has stability) then no damage will happen, and no CC will happen, the same as other CC skills that land on stability.

    MOST of hard cc attacks which have high tellings and and long cooldowns do near 0 damage even if they land. Don't see WHY fear must keep both the hard cc (which can last extremely long and is spammable from different sources) AND the high damage x second which delivers.

    Terror's damage was ok before February's patch due some skills at every classes did both cc + huge damage, but is no longer fine in a context in which one can use the entirely skill roster of the Warrior's hammer and barely do a scratch to the foe due damage was nerfed as result of being linked to cc effects.

    Fear doesn't do any damage on its own. Weapons skills and traits are seen as different here. People need to mentally decouple the two. There are a bunch of traits that do damage on CC and are deemed specifically fine because they are traits according to this:

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    Fear doesn't do any damage on its own. Weapons skills and traits are seen as different here. People need to mentally decouple the two. There are a bunch of traits that do damage on CC and are deemed specifically fine because they are traits according to this:

    ...So having large damage attached to skills as Drop the Hammer or Prime Ligth Beam is bad, but passively proccing large condi damage as a byproduct of hard cc skills which you can spam rotate is fine. Great. Ride out that kitten.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    Fear doesn't do any damage on its own. Weapons skills and traits are seen as different here. People need to mentally decouple the two. There are a bunch of traits that do damage on CC and are deemed specifically fine because they are traits according to this:

    ...So having large damage attached to skills as Drop the Hammer or Prime Ligth Beam is bad, but passively proccing large condi damage as a byproduct of hard cc skills which you can spam rotate is fine. Great. Ride out that kitten.

    Passive?