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Splitting cooldowns accross game modes is making pacing differences that are becoming disorienting


Doctor.1384

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Surprisingly, guild wars pve, gw wvw, and gw pvp are not 3 separate games with 27 different classes. Right now, If you were to play each class accross all the game modes without knowing which class you were playing, the pacing for each one would be so different it would be difficult to identify which is which. It is outrageous that there are warrior traits with internal cds as high as five minutes, more than 5 times slower than their pve counterparts! In competitive modes, it is common for a build to be as much as 30 percent slower than its pve equivalent. This difference completely changes how the class feels. Not everyone exclusively plays one game mode, as a matter of fact I think most players probably split their time up accross modes pretty evenly. These speed differences cant be good for collective mental health, which is probobly dwindling anyway. Changing cooldowns is a very different balancing tactic than changing numbers or effects, one alters pacing which alters playstyle, the other alters how much numbers get changed by other numbers. I cant be in a minority of players that want their class to play the same way accross game modes, and I cant even imagine how confusing these differences would be for a new player, which I think is the demographic that harsh cd changes were originally catered towards(?).

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Number changes will always make stuff feel different, that is not only true for cd changes.

For example, the damage changes they made for hard cc spells.Big ol' bomb is a hard hitting skill for PvE engineers with a power coefficient of 2,475. In PvP, the skill hits for 0,01. That is a damage decrease of 99,6%.In PvE, I use that skill to do damage primarily, but it doesn't serve that function in PvP at all.

Holographic shockwave does good damage in PvE and has the upside of always hitting critically. That advantage is lost in PvP. It doesn't matter if I hit my enemy with 7 damage or 14, it is so low that it becomes meaningless.

The split between PvP and PvE is something you have to adjust to for every parameter, not just cooldowns. If you want to play all game modes, then you have to put the work in it to learn how differently your class functions based on the game mode.Splitting cooldowns between the game modes is fine in my opinion. It is not much more disorienting than any other numbers difference.

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It's the fundamental flaw in the idea of not creating completely separate skills for PvP and PvE with the excuse of "We don't want players to get confused when swapping between game modes"

Since, the balancing of the same skills in PvE and PvP will always be impossible, the two game modes are just too radically different that you'll end up needing to utilize competitive splits to have some semblence of balance in PvP but then you start creating significant differences between class function between game modes even with just number tweaks comparable to having actual unique skills between modes.

Arguably, it's even worse with splits, because with entirely different skills, you expect them to work differently. With splits, you think it's going to work how you're used to and then you use it and it's nothing like how you expect.

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Pve is pretty much solo/co-op type of content, where players can be given more power, because... well, it doesn't matter for others and might be more fun to easier slap ai opponents. Wvw/pvp are competitive modes where you don't just kill ai opponents, so you naturally need to get that toned down. The "5 min trait cd" isn't limited to warrior and -allegedly- was implemented as placeholder for new traits, because they gave too much defensive power passively.

@Doctor.1384 said:These speed differences cant be good for collective mental health, which is probobly dwindling anyway.

What do you mean? What kind of brain capacity does it take to get used to different cooldowns in different modes? I think you're trying to make it a way bigger deal than it is.

Changing cooldowns is a very different balancing tactic than changing numbers or effects, one alters pacing which alters playstyle, the other alters how much numbers get changed by other numbers.

Is it just me or is expecting to have the same playstyle in both pve/pvp modes a bit naive? In, probably, almost any game?Cooldowns or not, if you're not altering your builds between the modes, you're not going very far.

I cant be in a minority of players that want their class to play the same way accross game modes

You realise that probably the only way that could happen would be implementing competitive changes to pve environment? Doubt that would somehow fix the issue for you despite the modes having same abilities/cooldowns.

and I cant even imagine how confusing these differences would be for a new player, which I think is the demographic that harsh cd changes were originally catered towards(?).

I can. The player goes into pvp/wvw, plays his pve build, notices something's different, proceeds to read skill/trait tooltips or just goes to gw2 wiki and... you know... learns the game over time. Doubt it differs that much from players that started playing in the past.

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@"Taril.8619" said:It's the fundamental flaw in the idea of not creating completely separate skills for PvP and PvE with the excuse of "We don't want players to get confused when swapping between game modes"

Since, the balancing of the same skills in PvE and PvP will always be impossible, the two game modes are just too radically different that you'll end up needing to utilize competitive splits to have some semblence of balance in PvP but then you start creating significant differences between class function between game modes even with just number tweaks comparable to having actual unique skills between modes.

Arguably, it's even worse with splits, because with entirely different skills, you expect them to work differently. With splits, you think it's going to work how you're used to and then you use it and it's nothing like how you expect.

I disagree. If you think that, it's probably for the first, maybe second time you enter a different gamemode. Having skill splits causes you to not really need to learn each class, trait and skill from scratch, because at least some of them are simply toned downed versions of pve ones. If OP is complaining that having different cooldowns makes new players way too confused to play the modes, then I doubt having to learn the whole new class for the mode would somehow make him/them feel better.I'm convcinced number/effect splits between the modes take objectively less time to learn and adjust than the entirely new set of traits and skills.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Taril.8619" said:It's the fundamental flaw in the idea of not creating completely separate skills for PvP and PvE with the excuse of "We don't want players to get confused when swapping between game modes"

Since, the balancing of the same skills in PvE and PvP will always be impossible, the two game modes are just too radically different that you'll end up needing to utilize competitive splits to have
some
semblence of balance in PvP but then you start creating significant differences between class function between game modes even with
just
number tweaks comparable to having actual unique skills between modes.

Arguably, it's even worse with splits, because with entirely different skills, you expect them to work differently.
With splits, you think it's going to work how you're used to and then you use it and it's nothing like how you expect.

I disagree. If you think that, it's probably for the first, maybe second time you enter a different gamemode.

You can say the same thing for having completely different skills too.

@Sobx.1758 said:Having skill splits causes you to not really need to learn each class, trait and skill from scratch, because at least some of them are simply toned downed versions of pve ones.

Except, you need to learn a lot of things with current splits. For example, CC skills dealing 0 damage, durations of skills being cut considerably, increased cooldowns (Increased Initiative and Energy costs for Thief and Rev), the damage of conditions (Torment and Confusion), in some cases class mechanics (I.e. One dodge on Mirage)

@Sobx.1758 said:If OP is complaining that having different cooldowns makes new players way too confused to play the modes, then I doubt having to learn the whole new class for the mode would somehow make him/them feel better.

OP is complaining about how cooldown differences affect the flow of a class. Not so much the confusion it causes.

Entirely new classes can still have good flow to them, with skills that are designed for the game mode.

@Sobx.1758 said:I'm convcinced number/effect splits between the modes take objectively less time to learn and adjust than the entirely new set of traits and skills.

Yes. Until you have to relearn the splits every few patches because they have to rebalance them constantly because of the inability to create balanced skills for 2 different game modes whilst trying to adhere to a "Lets not make skills different!" ideology.

In essence, it becomes a short term increase in complexity and workload for an overal long term decrease due to requiring less balance changes over time.

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@"Taril.8619" said:It's the fundamental flaw in the idea of not creating completely separate skills for PvP and PvE with the excuse of "We don't want players to get confused when swapping between game modes"

They are completely separate skills, but the two of them have the same icon and name. That's all.

Tell that to the numerous balance changes they make that effect all game modes (Then require re-balancing for individual game modes in hot-fixes shortly after). Most recently it was Sand Shades for Scourge. Getting put back to having the effects cast at the Necromancer and the Shade (After having being globally nerfed before, having significant impact on PvE and PvP Scourge because of this change directed towards WvW) and then having to be re-adjusted specifically for WvW with decreased target caps because of this global change.

The fact that they are still trying to utilize global changes, as opposed to having completely split skills, suggests they're trying to cling to them being the same skills with all the disadvantages that provides alongside all the disadvantages that the thing they're trying to avoid (Split skills) also provides when they inevitably have to utilize that method of balancing.

They may as well just go the whole hog and create unique icons/names for PvP/WvW/PvE skills and thus never utilize global changes given that they have to end up splitting almost everything anyway.

Which would only be beneficial overall. Especially since it means that things can be better designed for each game mode. I.e. Less AoE for WvW via reduced target caps. Things like Warrior Hammer and Mace/Mace no longer having half of their skills dealing 0 damage because they're CC and in PvP CC does 0 damage (Unless it's Necro's Fear with Terror trait). Boon applications can be reduced in PvP. Phantasms can become useful in PvP as it will be possible to have another trait instead of Chronophantasma. Etc.

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@Taril.8619 said:

@Taril.8619 said:It's the fundamental flaw in the idea of not creating completely separate skills for PvP and PvE with the excuse of "We don't want players to get confused when swapping between game modes"

Since, the balancing of the same skills in PvE and PvP will always be impossible, the two game modes are just too radically different that you'll end up needing to utilize competitive splits to have
some
semblence of balance in PvP but then you start creating significant differences between class function between game modes even with
just
number tweaks comparable to having actual unique skills between modes.

Arguably, it's even worse with splits, because with entirely different skills, you expect them to work differently.
With splits, you think it's going to work how you're used to and then you use it and it's nothing like how you expect.

I disagree. If you think that, it's probably for the first, maybe second time you enter a different gamemode.

You can say the same thing for having completely different skills too.

Sure, but I wasn't the one trying to make an argument based on that claiming one is confusing for new players and the other isn't? That was your claim, not mine.

@Sobx.1758 said:Having skill splits causes you to not really need to learn each class, trait and skill from scratch, because at least some of them are simply toned downed versions of pve ones.

Except, you need to learn a lot of things with current splits. For example, CC skills dealing 0 damage, durations of skills being cut considerably, increased cooldowns (Increased Initiative and Energy costs for Thief and Rev), the damage of conditions (Torment and Confusion), in some cases class mechanics (I.e. One dodge on Mirage)

Never said you don't need to learn anything, it's still easier with splits, reread the part you've just answered to.

("...from scratch, because at least some of them are simply toned downed versions of pve ones.")

@Sobx.1758 said:If OP is complaining that having different cooldowns makes new players way too confused to play the modes, then I doubt having to learn the whole new class for the mode would somehow make him/them feel better.

OP is complaining about how cooldown differences affect the flow of a class. Not so much the confusion it causes.

Entirely new classes can still have good flow to them, with skills that are designed for the game mode.

So making new set of skills would somehow automatically make for a "better" (which according to op means apparently "the same as in pve") flow? Doubt.Split skills are "designed for the game mode" -that's why they're split from pve, right?

@Sobx.1758 said:I'm convcinced number/effect splits between the modes take objectively less time to learn and adjust than the entirely new set of traits and skills.

Yes. Until you have to relearn the splits every few patches because they have to rebalance them constantly because of the inability to create balanced skills for 2 different game modes whilst trying to adhere to a "Lets not make skills different!" ideology.

There's not a huge amount of balance changes in each patch. Not to mention, that some of them are just rather small numerical changes, which are far from making you need to "relearn the splits every few patches". You're just intentionally overblowing it to try and make an argument, right?Also you're saying that as if new set of skills/traits for wvw/pvp would never need any balance changes. We simply know that's false. Not much in that matter would change -if anything at all.

In essence, it becomes a short term increase in complexity and workload for an overal long term decrease due to requiring less balance changes over time.

No, not really. There are literally pvp-only games getting constant balance patches, both numerical and mechnical with way bigger frequency than gw2 does.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Taril.8619 said:It's the fundamental flaw in the idea of not creating completely separate skills for PvP and PvE with the excuse of "We don't want players to get confused when swapping between game modes"

Since, the balancing of the same skills in PvE and PvP will always be impossible, the two game modes are just too radically different that you'll end up needing to utilize competitive splits to have
some
semblence of balance in PvP but then you start creating significant differences between class function between game modes even with
just
number tweaks comparable to having actual unique skills between modes.

Arguably, it's even worse with splits, because with entirely different skills, you expect them to work differently.
With splits, you think it's going to work how you're used to and then you use it and it's nothing like how you expect.

I disagree. If you think that, it's probably for the first, maybe second time you enter a different gamemode.

You can say the same thing for having completely different skills too.

Sure, but I wasn't the one trying to make an argument based on that claiming one is confusing for new players and the other isn't? That was your claim, not mine.

Neither was I.

I said both would be confusing to new players. With one being arguably worse.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:Having skill splits causes you to not really need to learn each class, trait and skill from scratch, because at least some of them are simply toned downed versions of pve ones.

Except, you need to learn a lot of things with current splits. For example, CC skills dealing 0 damage, durations of skills being cut considerably, increased cooldowns (Increased Initiative and Energy costs for Thief and Rev), the damage of conditions (Torment and Confusion), in some cases class mechanics (I.e. One dodge on Mirage)

Never said you don't need to learn anything, it's still easier with splits, reread the part you've just answered to.

("...from scratch, because at least some of them are simply toned downed versions of pve ones.")

Even "Toned down pve versions" can offer a stark difference in how they work. For example, CC skills doing 0 damage (While in PvE they might be some of the highest damage skills on the weapon set/class).

Both methods of tuning require some non-insignificant learning when swapping between modes.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:If OP is complaining that having different cooldowns makes new players way too confused to play the modes, then I doubt having to learn the whole new class for the mode would somehow make him/them feel better.

OP is complaining about how cooldown differences affect the flow of a class. Not so much the confusion it causes.

Entirely new classes can still have good flow to them, with skills that are designed for the game mode.

So making new set of skills would somehow automatically make for a "better" (which according to op means apparently "the same as in pve") flow? Doubt.Split skills are "designed for the game mode" -that's why they're split from pve, right?

It wouldn't automatically makee them "Better", but there's more room to provide "Better" flow and readability to the differences.

Split skills are not "Designed for the game mode", they're merely "Adjusted for the game mode". Mechanics stay the same, with just numerical differences on damage/duration/cooldown/cost/target cap. This can lead to issues arising in particular game modes when certain mechanics are stronger/weaker than in other game modes.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I'm convcinced number/effect splits between the modes take objectively less time to learn and adjust than the entirely new set of traits and skills.

Yes. Until you have to relearn the splits every few patches because they have to rebalance them constantly because of the inability to create balanced skills for 2 different game modes whilst trying to adhere to a "Lets not make skills different!" ideology.

There's not a huge amount of balance changes in each patch. Not to mention, that some of them are just rather small numerical changes, which are far from making you need to "relearn the splits every few patches". You're just intentionally overblowing it to try and make an argument, right?Also you're saying that as if new set of skills/traits for wvw/pvp would never need any balance changes. We simply know that's false. Not much in that matter would change -if anything at all.

The amount of balance changes =/= the effect of balance changes.

Things like the recent Sand Shade changes was only 2 changes, but the effect it has on Scourge is pretty significant and the split in WvW has a huge impact (Especially on Sand Savant trait that has now become useless in that mode)

I'm not saying that PvP/WvW unique skills/traits wouldn't need any balance changes. But they would require fewer, since they wouldn't be affected by half-baked global changes and then subsequent splits.

@Sobx.1758 said:

In essence, it becomes a short term increase in complexity and workload for an overal long term decrease due to requiring less balance changes over time.

No, not really. There are literally pvp-only games getting constant balance patches, both numerical and mechnical with way bigger frequency than gw2 does.

These games also have better balance than GW2 does.

Also some of these games, do changes purely to shake up the meta rather than any actual "Need" to make changes.

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@Taril.8619 said:

@Taril.8619 said:It's the fundamental flaw in the idea of not creating completely separate skills for PvP and PvE with the excuse of "We don't want players to get confused when swapping between game modes"

Since, the balancing of the same skills in PvE and PvP will always be impossible, the two game modes are just too radically different that you'll end up needing to utilize competitive splits to have
some
semblence of balance in PvP but then you start creating significant differences between class function between game modes even with
just
number tweaks comparable to having actual unique skills between modes.

Arguably, it's even worse with splits, because with entirely different skills, you expect them to work differently.
With splits, you think it's going to work how you're used to and then you use it and it's nothing like how you expect.

I disagree. If you think that, it's probably for the first, maybe second time you enter a different gamemode.

You can say the same thing for having completely different skills too.

Sure, but I wasn't the one trying to make an argument based on that claiming one is confusing for new players and the other isn't? That was your claim, not mine.

Neither was I.

I said both would be confusing to new players. With one being arguably worse.

So you were making an argument, but now you claim you weren't making one. Ok then.

@Sobx.1758 said:Having skill splits causes you to not really need to learn each class, trait and skill from scratch, because at least some of them are simply toned downed versions of pve ones.

Except, you need to learn a lot of things with current splits. For example, CC skills dealing 0 damage, durations of skills being cut considerably, increased cooldowns (Increased Initiative and Energy costs for Thief and Rev), the damage of conditions (Torment and Confusion), in some cases class mechanics (I.e. One dodge on Mirage)

Never said you don't need to learn anything, it's still easier with splits, reread the part you've just answered to.

("...from scratch, because at least some of them are simply toned downed versions of pve ones.")

Even "Toned down pve versions" can offer a stark difference in how they work. For example, CC skills doing 0 damage (While in PvE they might be some of the highest damage skills on the weapon set/class).

Both methods of tuning require some non-insignificant learning when swapping between modes.

No, not really. You pretty much know what "toned down pve versions" do and just take notice of the numerical changes. That's all. If anyone needs some extended learning sessions because of changes like that, then that's just pretty sad.Seriously, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here? That acknowledging "500 dmg => 50 dmg", "5 ini => 7 ini" or "20 sec cd => 25 sec cd" takes the same "effort" as learning completely new skill for each slot of every weapon of every class? That's just false. Splits are easier to get into between the modes and that's a fact.

@Sobx.1758 said:If OP is complaining that having different cooldowns makes new players way too confused to play the modes, then I doubt having to learn the whole new class for the mode would somehow make him/them feel better.

OP is complaining about how cooldown differences affect the flow of a class. Not so much the confusion it causes.

Entirely new classes can still have good flow to them, with skills that are designed for the game mode.

So making new set of skills would somehow automatically make for a "better" (which according to op means apparently "the same as in pve") flow? Doubt.Split skills are "designed for the game mode" -that's why they're split from pve, right?

It wouldn't automatically makee them "Better", but there's more room to provide "Better" flow and readability to the differences.

Split skills are not "Designed for the game mode", they're merely "Adjusted for the game mode". Mechanics stay the same, with just numerical differences on damage/duration/cooldown/cost/target cap. This can lead to issues arising in particular game modes when certain mechanics are stronger/weaker than in other game modes.

There's pretty much the same "room", in the end it boils down to devs' decisions, trying to claim that they'd change their opinions about how the game/class should be played just because they'd have to swap every skill and trait for each class seems unsubstantiated and at the same time suggests that the devs didn't consider having pvp modes in gw2 while designing the game/classes/skills. But that's not the case.

@Sobx.1758 said:I'm convcinced number/effect splits between the modes take objectively less time to learn and adjust than the entirely new set of traits and skills.

Yes. Until you have to relearn the splits every few patches because they have to rebalance them constantly because of the inability to create balanced skills for 2 different game modes whilst trying to adhere to a "Lets not make skills different!" ideology.

There's not a huge amount of balance changes in each patch. Not to mention, that some of them are just rather small numerical changes, which are far from making you need to "relearn the splits every few patches". You're just intentionally overblowing it to try and make an argument, right?Also you're saying that as if new set of skills/traits for wvw/pvp would never need any balance changes. We simply know that's false. Not much in that matter would change -if anything at all.

The amount of balance changes =/= the effect of balance changes.

Things like the recent Sand Shade changes was only 2 changes, but the effect it has on Scourge is pretty significant and the split in WvW has a huge impact (Especially on Sand Savant trait that has now become useless in that mode)

I'm not saying that PvP/WvW unique skills/traits wouldn't need any balance changes. But they would require fewer, since they wouldn't be affected by half-baked global changes and then subsequent splits.

Yeah, by writing "amount of balance changes", I've meant the overal contents of the patches, not just the number of lines or whatever my wording could suggest.

Again, by writing that, you're saying the devs weren't aware of existance of pvp modes in the game while implementing SS. If that's not what you're saying, then I'm not sure why you try to claim that "pvp designed skills" would be free of issues EXACTLY like this one. They wouldn't. They would be made with similar/same assumptions in mind like the current split skills/traits are.

And I'm saying they wouldn't require fewer or smaller changes, because while implementing the current skills the devs were well aware of the state of each of the game mode. I don't see on what basis you're making your claim. Wishful thinking, hopes and dreams? ^^

In essence, it becomes a short term increase in complexity and workload for an overal long term decrease due to requiring less balance changes over time.

No, not really. There are literally pvp-only games getting constant balance patches, both numerical and mechnical with way bigger frequency than gw2 does.

These games also have better balance than GW2 does.

Also some of these games, do changes purely to shake up the meta rather than any actual "Need" to make changes.

Maybe some do, but the others don't.

Again, maybe some do, but others just uncover "suddenly meta broken build or playstyle" and need to straight up cut it in half. So... no.

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I can't comment on WoW's current design (played Legion for a few months, but that's all) but back in Vanilla, TBC and WoTLK, Blizzard was adamant about not stat splitting. They wanted the skills to work the same. So, they instead tried to compensate on the receiving end.

In TBC for instance they introduced the Resilience stat, which was supposed to curb the damage received. This was maintained and tweaked all through WoTLK by the end of which I quit the game.

My point is, it never really worked. Some classes benefited more from stacking Resilience, while others didn't need to, and could go full glass. In the end Blizz kept tweaking abilities to balance PvP, which bled into PvE at the same time, and when you're trying to do high end PvE like Heroics and Raids / Hard Modes, having your skills change drastically, multiple times over the course of the 2 year expansion was not fun, and was one of major reasons I quit the game. I was tired of skill ping-pong.

Like it or not, GW2's use of stat splits at least preserves one game mode from the others. If ANET feels they need to drastically buff 'x' professions DPS to be more competitive in PvE, the people in WvW and PvP don't have to then deal with it, and PvE players don't have to see their builds nerfed because their profession just happens to be really good at staying on a node.

Where ANET errs is when they try to change the mechanics of a skill, something that cannot be split between game modes, as an attempt to balance. Great examples of this mistake are:

Revenant: Sword 4Revenant: Staff 5Scourge: F2-F5 only triggering on a shade or the player (since reverted)

Those are just off the top of my head, but neither Rev nor Scourge was OP in any way, shape or form in PvE, but because of a desire for counter play in PvP/WvW, and for lack of any other idea on how to downgrade their power in competitive modes, ANET came up with these changes and basically kittened on players who use those professions/elites in PvE.

Thankfully ANET finally got around to reverting the scourge shades, but PvE Revs are still stuck with the hot garbage changes made to Sword 4 and Staff 5.....and meanwhile the most commonly played Rev builds in competitive modes are Condi Revs running Mace/Axe + Sword/Shield. Ironic that, eh?

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IMO Anet long since went overboard with it. They should have balanced it for PvP and WvW first and then balanced actual PvE mobs to suit it.

The problem here is that if they do that today... PvEers will have a complete mental meltdown over their numbers being lower than their last numbers. It's like... 5k dps on a 5k hp mob is technically the same as 40k dps on a 40k hp mob, but imagine if you actually lowered PvE dps from 40k->5k. Complete. Meltdown.

Or, at the very least they could have been consistent in what they change on skills. Like, we're only changing cooldowns. Or only damage. Or only remove damage on CC. But now it's all over the place.

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I strongly agree. This is the main reason I never play Mesmer in PvE. I am well aquited with PvE CDs, yet in sPvP it Is like playing a different class. If someone new to the game or came back after a long break, it is nearly impossible to jump from PvE to sPvP.

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@otto.5684 said:I strongly agree. This is the main reason I never play Mesmer in PvE. I am well aquited with PvE CDs, yet in sPvP it Is like playing a different class. If someone new to the game or came back after a long break, it is nearly impossible to jump from PvE to sPvP.

So you would want to see pvp values in pve content?

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@otto.5684 said:I strongly agree. This is the main reason I never play Mesmer in PvE. I am well aquited with PvE CDs, yet in sPvP it Is like playing a different class. If someone new to the game or came back after a long break, it is nearly impossible to jump from PvE to sPvP.

So you would want to see pvp values in pve content?

No. I want PvP splits to be only for damage. There could be a few exceptions, but that should be as far as it goes. As it currently stands there is close to no continuity between game modes.

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@otto.5684 said:

@otto.5684 said:I strongly agree. This is the main reason I never play Mesmer in PvE. I am well aquited with PvE CDs, yet in sPvP it Is like playing a different class. If someone new to the game or came back after a long break, it is nearly impossible to jump from PvE to sPvP.

So you would want to see pvp values in pve content?

No. I want PvP splits to be only for damage. There could be a few exceptions, but that should be as far as it goes. As it currently stands there is close to no continuity between game modes.

That would be terrible for skill design in the future, if you ask me. It means that for balance reason, they always have to attach damage to skills to make sure to have a balance lever.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:IMO Anet long since went overboard with it. They should have balanced it for PvP and WvW first and then balanced actual PvE mobs to suit it.

The problem here is that if they do that today... PvEers will have a complete mental meltdown over their numbers being lower than their last numbers. It's like... 5k dps on a 5k hp mob is technically the same as 40k dps on a 40k hp mob, but imagine if you actually lowered PvE dps from 40k->5k. Complete. Meltdown.

Or, at the very least they could have been consistent in what they change on skills. Like, we're only changing cooldowns. Or only damage. Or only remove damage on CC. But now it's all over the place.

Not only this, but part of the problem was also making PvE so drastically different than PvP. I get it, they're worried players will be overwhelmed by intelligent opponents, but at the same time its made PvE into a mindless punching bag game.

We should've had numbers and AI mechanics more similar to players to begin with.

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@otto.5684 said:

@otto.5684 said:I strongly agree. This is the main reason I never play Mesmer in PvE. I am well aquited with PvE CDs, yet in sPvP it Is like playing a different class. If someone new to the game or came back after a long break, it is nearly impossible to jump from PvE to sPvP.

So you would want to see pvp values in pve content?

No. I want PvP splits to be only for damage. There could be a few exceptions, but that should be as far as it goes. As it currently stands there is close to no continuity between game modes.

You understand that just means pvp values put in pve content except the dmg and not the other way around, right?And I still can't believe anyone tries to claim they're so confused by the skill splits, that's insane to me. Longer cd? OOPS, I suddenly have no idea what the skill does, I'm so confused guys! :o

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@otto.5684 said:I strongly agree. This is the main reason I never play Mesmer in PvE. I am well aquited with PvE CDs, yet in sPvP it Is like playing a different class. If someone new to the game or came back after a long break, it is nearly impossible to jump from PvE to sPvP.

So you would want to see pvp values in pve content?

No. I want PvP splits to be only for damage. There could be a few exceptions, but that should be as far as it goes. As it currently stands there is close to no continuity between game modes.

You understand that just means pvp values put in pve content except the dmg and not the other way around, right?And I still can't believe anyone tries to claim they're so confused by the skill splits, that's insane to me. Longer cd? OOPS, I suddenly have no idea what the skill does, I'm so confused guys! :o

You are not confused you just think you are right without any logic or information. It happens all the time. Other people surely are dumb. I am always the smart one. And no, the game would not be balanced around sPvP CDs. These change all the fucking time. You need to have consistency.

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@otto.5684 said:

@otto.5684 said:I strongly agree. This is the main reason I never play Mesmer in PvE. I am well aquited with PvE CDs, yet in sPvP it Is like playing a different class. If someone new to the game or came back after a long break, it is nearly impossible to jump from PvE to sPvP.

So you would want to see pvp values in pve content?

No. I want PvP splits to be only for damage. There could be a few exceptions, but that should be as far as it goes. As it currently stands there is close to no continuity between game modes.

You understand that just means pvp values put in pve content except the dmg and not the other way around, right?And I still can't believe anyone tries to claim they're so confused by the skill splits, that's insane to me. Longer cd? OOPS, I suddenly have no idea what the skill does, I'm so confused guys! :o

You are not confused you just think you are right without any logic or information. It happens all the time. Other people surely are dumb. I am always the smart one. And no, the game would not be balanced around sPvP CDs. These change all the kitten time. You need to have consistency.

Nope, I meant exactly what I wrote (which btw wasn't saying I'M the one confused here), but good job telling me what I think at the same time claiming I'm the one doing it all the time. If you REALLY can't handle -for the most part- rather small changes to the skill numbers then maybe playing modes outside of pve is not for you. And I'll remain wondering how can this possible be such a huge issue for anyone involved.

How can you claim they wouldn't be balanced around spvp? You say that based on what? Your fictional scenario you've just came up with and we both know won't suddenly become reality? Nice. What was it you said? Ah yes: "(...)you just think you are right without any logic or information."

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