Do you think Weakness should affect conditions too? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Do you think Weakness should affect conditions too?

Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

What if weakness reduced the duration of half of the applied conditions by % maybe 50 maybe lower.

<1

Comments

  • ParadoX.3124ParadoX.3124 Member ✭✭✭

    Would be great if it would reduce duration of non dmg condition at least

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭

    they need to remove cleansing, make toughness reduce all kind of dmg, what do you think?

  • Weakness is already powerful enough as it is, no need to make it stronger.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    they just need to remove some "damage-reduction" traits and add "condi-dmg-reduction" traits

    or runes...

  • Caine.8204Caine.8204 Member ✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    they just need to remove some "damage-reduction" traits and add "condi-dmg-reduction" traits

    or runes...

    what a terrible idea. conditions builds exist to whittle people down, slow them, or otherwise "weaken" them. see chill, immob, cripple, weakness, blind, etc. they affect your combat effectiveness.

    condition builds generally have lower dps than power builds, and power builds are necessary because they do the bulk of the actual killing in a fight in the form of spike dmg.

    in a team fight there is so much condi cleanse, condi only serves as a way to get people to use cooldowns, or impair people who have no cooldowns left.

    power builds can kill someone through their cooldowns, as long as they dont have any block/invuln/evades left. see; thief, rev, power core guard, holo. especially holo atm.

    without dmg reduction traits, power builds, which are already meta, would just get much more prevalent and we'd go back to getting one-shot in every fight.

    they already took out 90% of the toughness in pvp, and you want to remove damage reduction as well? right after a power damage nerf?

    soulbeasts can still do 24k damage with rapidfire+elite, but yes. lets increase our damage taken yet again..

    take rune of resistance, condi cleanse, and shush.

  • BeepBoopBop.5403BeepBoopBop.5403 Member ✭✭✭✭

    "Completely build around countering me or kitten" - every condi player here

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    What if weakness reduced the duration of half of the applied conditions by % maybe 50 maybe lower.

    should cleansing heal back all the damage you took recently?
    should resistance make you 100% immune to power damage?
    Find out on the next episode of forum in a nutshell.
    BTW power builds are starting to dominate over condi builds again, yet you people keep thinking up elaborate ways to nerf condi every time.
    If condi builds become a problem you take resist or rev rune and you are fine, or slot more cleanse. If power builds like rev/thief overperfor then there is no counterplay to that lul

    LoL Agree 100%!

    Yes. The answer to complaints of a "condi bunker meta" (where the most OP build everyone can find to complain about runs berserker amulet for some strange reason...) is to reduce condition damage via weakness. As long as they can't kill you and you still can't kill them, we've solved the bunker problem! Wait...what?

    On an unrelated and completely random note, I was thinking it might be nice if we had a forum mascot. We can call him "Forum Man!" He'll run around in a cape with his underwear on the outside, proposing the worst solutions to every problem!

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2020

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    "Completely build around countering me or kitten" - every condi player here

    Imagine taking one of the biggest combat mechanics into consideration while making a build, just think about that. Condi op btw.

    Also, what is a condi player? Not everyone plays 1 build lul.

  • If you want weakness to affect my condi, then I want my condi be able to crit.

  • Weakness makes 50% of attacks do 50% less damage, in essence its a 25% debuff to power damage. I agree that it should apply to conditions. But I think a duration decrease is not enough, just make it do a flat % less damage. 25% brings it into line with power builds. -% condition stats are pretty easy to get already, if you let it stack much more, there will be builds essentially immune to conditions.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caine.8204 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    they just need to remove some "damage-reduction" traits and add "condi-dmg-reduction" traits

    or runes...

    what a terrible idea. conditions builds exist to whittle people down, slow them, or otherwise "weaken" them. see chill, immob, cripple, weakness, blind, etc. they affect your combat effectiveness.

    condition builds generally have lower dps than power builds, and power builds are necessary because they do the bulk of the actual killing in a fight in the form of spike dmg.

    in a team fight there is so much condi cleanse, condi only serves as a way to get people to use cooldowns, or impair people who have no cooldowns left.

    power builds can kill someone through their cooldowns, as long as they dont have any block/invuln/evades left. see; thief, rev, power core guard, holo. especially holo atm.

    without dmg reduction traits, power builds, which are already meta, would just get much more prevalent and we'd go back to getting one-shot in every fight.

    they already took out 90% of the toughness in pvp, and you want to remove damage reduction as well? right after a power damage nerf?

    soulbeasts can still do 24k damage with rapidfire+elite, but yes. lets increase our damage taken yet again..

    take rune of resistance, condi cleanse, and shush.

    i just said SOME. and as long as there are condi spikes that are far far beyond possible power spikes, its not really how it should be.

  • Caine.8204Caine.8204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2020

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    i just said SOME. and as long as there are condi spikes that are far far beyond possible power spikes, its not really how it should be.

    condi spike being better than power spike is not a thing. 1 condi cleanse and all that damage turns to 0. what amazing spike.

    the thing with condis is that the POTENTIAL is very high, but compared to power, the ACTUAL DPS is very low. it starts being very good towards the end of the fight when people run out of cooldowns. that "condi spike" you talk about, is actually them landing 10+ skills in succession on you when you no longer have condi cleanse, which is how condi builds are played.

    wait for condis to stack, then cleanse. don't cleanse the second you get 1 bleed and 1 poison. wait for them to waste more of their skills, and THEN you cleanse.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    "Completely build around countering me or kitten" - every condi player here

    But people do this for power builds and don't bat an eyelid.

  • Caine.8204Caine.8204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2020

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    "Completely build around countering me or kitten" - every condi player here

    But people do this for power builds and don't bat an eyelid.

    the difference being that you cant ever build around being good against power damage, because 90% of the toughness was removed from SPvP. your only hope is to kill them faster than they kill you. condi is counterable whereas power is not.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caine.8204 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    "Completely build around countering me or kitten" - every condi player here

    But people do this for power builds and don't bat an eyelid.

    the difference being that you cant ever build around being good against power damage, because 90% of the toughness was removed from SPvP. your only hope is to kill them faster than they kill you. condi is counterable whereas power is not.

    Outside of the mitigation that applied to both damage types, despite what people will tell you, there is more to building around power damage than wearing an amulet that has toughness on it.

    Power has been so predominant, and at times completely dominant over conditions, for so long people just don't consider what they are doing is building against it more so just building their characters not to die. It's why you often see the complaints of when condi has a handful of builds that conditions are lowering build diversity because people have to spec out of what they are used to into something else.

  • Caine.8204Caine.8204 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Outside of the mitigation that applied to both damage types, despite what people will tell you, there is more to building around power damage than wearing an amulet that has toughness on it.

    Power has been so predominant, and at times completely dominant over conditions, for so long people just don't consider what they are doing is building against it more so just building their characters not to die. It's why you often see the complaints of when condi has a handful of builds that conditions are lowering build diversity because people have to spec out of what they are used to into something else.

    conditions are half of the game mode. in PvE you don't have to spec into condi removal, in pvp you do. it actually increases build diversity. if there wasnt condi in the game, everyone would be running full zerker all the time with damage or stun utilities. doesn't sound very diverse to me.

    conditions are not what kills diversity in this game. terrible balance is what kills diversity. if they nuked all the condi builds in the game, you'd still have the same power meta builds, because conditions aren't what make them strong. them being strong is what makes them strong

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    this reminds me off pre feb patch meta where people still complained about condi builds.
    I ran meta cmes, you know. Access to weakness and perma protection. You could actually survive a hit or two.
    Then I tried shatter build ( something similar to what is meta now ).
    With 20k hp, no toughness, no protection and no weakness application, I quickly stopped playing it.
    After dying to warrior doding on me ( 5,8k dmg ) and using gs3 ( 13,6k dmg ) I was already dead.
    This was the reason meta was what it was. And all power builds did the same, from 10k+ backstabs that did 15k+ dmg before character rendered to quickness rev that killed you under 1s.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caine.8204 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Outside of the mitigation that applied to both damage types, despite what people will tell you, there is more to building around power damage than wearing an amulet that has toughness on it.

    Power has been so predominant, and at times completely dominant over conditions, for so long people just don't consider what they are doing is building against it more so just building their characters not to die. It's why you often see the complaints of when condi has a handful of builds that conditions are lowering build diversity because people have to spec out of what they are used to into something else.

    conditions are half of the game mode. in PvE you don't have to spec into condi removal, in pvp you do. it actually increases build diversity. if there wasnt condi in the game, everyone would be running full zerker all the time with damage or stun utilities. doesn't sound very diverse to me.

    conditions are not what kills diversity in this game. terrible balance is what kills diversity. if they nuked all the condi builds in the game, you'd still have the same power meta builds, because conditions aren't what make them strong. them being strong is what makes them strong

    Coool and I agree but this wasn't my point.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    What if weakness reduced the duration of half of the applied conditions by % maybe 50 maybe lower.

    should cleansing heal back all the damage you took recently?
    should resistance make you 100% immune to power damage?
    Find out on the next episode of forum in a nutshell.
    BTW power builds are starting to dominate over condi builds again, yet you people keep thinking up elaborate ways to nerf condi every time.
    If condi builds become a problem you take resist or rev rune and you are fine, or slot more cleanse. If power builds like rev/thief overperfor then there is no counterplay to that lul

    Idk man most of my games consist of bunker condi scourge, core codi necro, bunker condi rev, thief(mostly is power but when they see so much condi cover they go condi too), a support tempest or holo(only cause some of it skills are running still on pve balance), and there you sit wondering where you can add more condition cleanses and way to move the kitten bunkers that plop aoe on the node on cd.
    There isn't single power build that counters condi builds, the only counter build that throws conditions back at the condi classes with effect is also condi class.

  • Caine.8204Caine.8204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2020

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    There isn't single power build that counters condi builds, the only counter build that throws conditions back at the condi classes with effect is also condi class.

    very wrong. warrior has historically countered necro since.. well... forever. not that its very meta, but it does. thief can blind spam the F*** out of a necro, and win. revenant can teleport in from nowhere and burst someone to dead within a few seconds. holo is very strong, and does very well against condition builds as well. and power necro can beat condi necro as well, because they are weak to high amounts of power damage, not conditions. necros are historically strong against other condi builds, and now are countered by condi rev.... well not anymore maybe, since their resist uptime just got halved. but they will still be weak to power builds, since they have very little in the way of stun breaks. a good stun chain in a team fight and a necro is a goner.

    there are plenty of power builds that counter conditions.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would agree to Weakness getting the same effect on conditions providing all damaging conditions got a slight duration buff as a result.
    It would be too strong with current condi setup.

    High damage low duration condis like Burn would get hit much harder than low damage long durations like bleeding.
    This would result in some pretty heavy hits to classes like Guardian due to their reliance on Burns and Less to Necromancer due to their lack of access to it, however it would make traits etc that grant small access to condis like Burn borderline useless due to the pitiful duration access.. Dhuumfire being one example.
    So we'd need more base duration increases to counter that.

  • anjo.6143anjo.6143 Member ✭✭✭

    @Caine.8204 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    There isn't single power build that counters condi builds, the only counter build that throws conditions back at the condi classes with effect is also condi class.

    very wrong. warrior has historically countered necro since.. well... forever. not that its very meta, but it does. thief can blind spam the F*** out of a necro, and win. revenant can teleport in from nowhere and burst someone to dead within a few seconds. holo is very strong, and does very well against condition builds as well. and power necro can beat condi necro as well, because they are weak to high amounts of power damage, not conditions. necros are historically strong against other condi builds, and now are countered by condi rev.... well not anymore maybe, since their resist uptime just got halved. but they will still be weak to power builds, since they have very little in the way of stun breaks. a good stun chain in a team fight and a necro is a goner.

    there are plenty of power builds that counter conditions.

    If u as a necro loses 1x1 against thief, u are that bad.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd rather have Toughness reduce condition damage taken.

  • Caine.8204Caine.8204 Member ✭✭✭

    @anjo.6143 said:
    If u as a necro loses 1x1 against thief, u are that bad.

    99% of thieves, super easy. 1% of thieves that actually know how to play, might actually prove as a huge annoyance, and if you're at 80% health, a good thief can probably finish you off.

    get to my rank before u say anything :dizzy:

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caine.8204 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    i just said SOME. and as long as there are condi spikes that are far far beyond possible power spikes, its not really how it should be.

    condi spike being better than power spike is not a thing. 1 condi cleanse and all that damage turns to 0. what amazing spike.

    the thing with condis is that the POTENTIAL is very high, but compared to power, the ACTUAL DPS is very low. it starts being very good towards the end of the fight when people run out of cooldowns. that "condi spike" you talk about, is actually them landing 10+ skills in succession on you when you no longer have condi cleanse, which is how condi builds are played.

    wait for condis to stack, then cleanse. don't cleanse the second you get 1 bleed and 1 poison. wait for them to waste more of their skills, and THEN you cleanse.

    This guy gets it.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caine.8204 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    i just said SOME. and as long as there are condi spikes that are far far beyond possible power spikes, its not really how it should be.

    condi spike being better than power spike is not a thing. 1 condi cleanse and all that damage turns to 0. what amazing spike.

    the thing with condis is that the POTENTIAL is very high, but compared to power, the ACTUAL DPS is very low. it starts being very good towards the end of the fight when people run out of cooldowns. that "condi spike" you talk about, is actually them landing 10+ skills in succession on you when you no longer have condi cleanse, which is how condi builds are played.

    wait for condis to stack, then cleanse. don't cleanse the second you get 1 bleed and 1 poison. wait for them to waste more of their skills, and THEN you cleanse.

    Or spam skills on cooldown while being a brick and apply all the damage cause it comes from ranged attacks and pulsing circles ou and heck if its 1 bleed and 1 poison more like 3 stacks of 3 different conditions + a cripple and if you dont get that one slow off your kitten and run you are going get pelted with more conditions, cause why the kitten a condition skill needs telegraph just slap some dumb kitten apply on x trait, it is a surprise gift and the surprise is kitten.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    Well yes, but also no. Not the way you describe, anyway.

    Weakness working on condis somehow? Sure why not. Resistance is nowhere NEAR as available as weakness, for anyone who is unable to read tooltips and plays the game blindfolded. Maybe an outgoing duration debuff, or just damage debuff. I do think they should rework weaknesses' -endurance regen though - having -dmg for all dmg types would be overboard if it kept -end regen too.

    Having it only work on non-damaging condis would also be an interesting way to go about it.

    Bare minimum though it should be a flat reduction - RNG defense you may or may not be able to rely on is bogus and it feels horrible to play with. 'okay so my backstab might crit for a nice amount orrrr if I get unlucky it's going to hit for maybe 1k' is ridiculous.

    Or anet could stop fooling themselves into believing Resistance's current design is at all decent, make it reduce condi dmg taken by a percentage and then rework its availability.

    Anyway I guess what I'm trying to ultimately get across here is nerf thief.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    Well yes, but also no. Not the way you describe, anyway.

    Weakness working on condis somehow? Sure why not. Resistance is nowhere NEAR as available as weakness, for anyone who is unable to read tooltips and plays the game blindfolded. Maybe an outgoing duration debuff, or just damage debuff. I do think they should rework weaknesses' -endurance regen though - having -dmg for all dmg types would be overboard if it kept -end regen too.

    Having it only work on non-damaging condis would also be an interesting way to go about it.

    Bare minimum though it should be a flat reduction - RNG defense you may or may not be able to rely on is bogus and it feels horrible to play with. 'okay so my backstab might crit for a nice amount orrrr if I get unlucky it's going to hit for maybe 1k' is ridiculous.

    Or anet could stop fooling themselves into believing Resistance's current design is at all decent, make it reduce condi dmg taken by a percentage and then rework its availability.

    Anyway I guess what I'm trying to ultimately get across here is nerf thief.

    Well Resistance is used more to stop conditions effects then damage, it works more like stability, for those 2 to 4 seconds you are not hindered by blind,slow,cripple,chill, could be reworked like stability and have stacks and work as preemptive cleanse, but conditions are too easily available so how many stacks should you get, should it work on every condition or only on disabling ones, which one count as disabling and which as damaging since torment,confusion and poison exist.
    The current design is simpler and for these 2 to 4 seconds you are not hindered, and after it ends the conditions are still on you and you will feel their effect, basically it is reduce condition duration by 2 to 4 seconds. Probably it is fine as it is now.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    You are refusing to learn important part of the game ( cleansing and condition management ).
    Instead you want blanked condi nerf that will make bunker meta where build with perma protection, toughness and perma weakness can counter both condi and power and thus never die/be pressured.

    Pretty much.

    Also seem to neglect that this wouldn't be the only change. If this got put in it would come with nerfs to cleanse. They would still die and complain about dying.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    You are refusing to learn important part of the game ( cleansing and condition management ).
    Instead you want blanked condi nerf that will make bunker meta where build with perma protection, toughness and perma weakness can counter both condi and power and thus never die/be pressured.

    Pretty much.

    Also seem to neglect that this wouldn't be the only change. If this got put in it would come with nerfs to cleanse. They would still die and complain about dying.

    So you both agree that you have nothing constructive to add and just say people are bad.
    You know attacking the person and not the argument means that you lost the argument.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    You are refusing to learn important part of the game ( cleansing and condition management ).
    Instead you want blanked condi nerf that will make bunker meta where build with perma protection, toughness and perma weakness can counter both condi and power and thus never die/be pressured.

    Pretty much.

    Also seem to neglect that this wouldn't be the only change. If this got put in it would come with nerfs to cleanse. They would still die and complain about dying.

    So you both agree that you have nothing constructive to add and just say people are bad.
    You know attacking the person and not the argument means that you lost the argument.

    Im not attacking you, I am saying that you there are ways to deal with conditions. Use them instead of pleading developers to deal with them for you.
    I understand that in your mind conditions are OP and nerfing them is good, but I am certain that if condi nerf will just bring bunkers back online.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    You are refusing to learn important part of the game ( cleansing and condition management ).
    Instead you want blanked condi nerf that will make bunker meta where build with perma protection, toughness and perma weakness can counter both condi and power and thus never die/be pressured.

    Pretty much.

    Also seem to neglect that this wouldn't be the only change. If this got put in it would come with nerfs to cleanse. They would still die and complain about dying.

    So you both agree that you have nothing constructive to add and just say people are bad.
    You know attacking the person and not the argument means that you lost the argument.

    Im not attacking you, I am saying that you there are ways to deal with conditions. Use them instead of pleading developers to deal with them for you.
    I understand that in your mind conditions are OP and nerfing them is good, but I am certain that if condi nerf will just bring bunkers back online.

    And the double down.Why is it so bad to have more then one avenue to deal with conditions. And the current bunkers are condition based, so the fear you have is already here.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    You are refusing to learn important part of the game ( cleansing and condition management ).
    Instead you want blanked condi nerf that will make bunker meta where build with perma protection, toughness and perma weakness can counter both condi and power and thus never die/be pressured.

    Pretty much.

    Also seem to neglect that this wouldn't be the only change. If this got put in it would come with nerfs to cleanse. They would still die and complain about dying.

    So you both agree that you have nothing constructive to add and just say people are bad.
    You know attacking the person and not the argument means that you lost the argument.

    Im not attacking you, I am saying that you there are ways to deal with conditions. Use them instead of pleading developers to deal with them for you.
    I understand that in your mind conditions are OP and nerfing them is good, but I am certain that if condi nerf will just bring bunkers back online.

    And the double down.Why is it so bad to have more then one avenue to deal with conditions. And the current bunkers are condition based, so the fear you have is already here.

    there is MANY ways of dealing with conditions, MUCH MUCH more then dealing with power. Its a fact.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    You are refusing to learn important part of the game ( cleansing and condition management ).
    Instead you want blanked condi nerf that will make bunker meta where build with perma protection, toughness and perma weakness can counter both condi and power and thus never die/be pressured.

    Pretty much.

    Also seem to neglect that this wouldn't be the only change. If this got put in it would come with nerfs to cleanse. They would still die and complain about dying.

    So you both agree that you have nothing constructive to add and just say people are bad.
    You know attacking the person and not the argument means that you lost the argument.

    Im not attacking you, I am saying that you there are ways to deal with conditions. Use them instead of pleading developers to deal with them for you.
    I understand that in your mind conditions are OP and nerfing them is good, but I am certain that if condi nerf will just bring bunkers back online.

    And the double down.Why is it so bad to have more then one avenue to deal with conditions. And the current bunkers are condition based, so the fear you have is already here.

    there is MANY ways of dealing with conditions, MUCH MUCH more then dealing with power. Its a fact.

    States "Its a fact", doesn't give examples. With power you can kite, you can use protection, you can dodge(most conditions come from pulsing aoe fields which you have to double dodge out of or they come from passive traits of the type next hit will do x conditions and most attacks are not well telegraphed), you can use channeled block( this stops also conditions that are thrown but not the ones on you) , you can get toughness, you can get vitalit, you can use Agis, you can use healing, you can use CCs they are not doing damage if they can't move , you can use traits or abilities that make you uncrittable , or traits that give % reduction and most of all you can use all kinds of conditions to reduce power too nothing slow, chill, Weakness, cripple, immobile.
    Ranged power damage is probably the worst but it can be reflected, while condi ranged damage reflected is bad since you need to be condition build to make use of it since it scales by the defenders condition damage.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No. In fact the traits and runes and skills that provide % damage reduction on conditions should be removed. It negates the purpose of conditions being the armor penetration mechanic.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    You are refusing to learn important part of the game ( cleansing and condition management ).
    Instead you want blanked condi nerf that will make bunker meta where build with perma protection, toughness and perma weakness can counter both condi and power and thus never die/be pressured.

    Pretty much.

    Also seem to neglect that this wouldn't be the only change. If this got put in it would come with nerfs to cleanse. They would still die and complain about dying.

    So you both agree that you have nothing constructive to add and just say people are bad.
    You know attacking the person and not the argument means that you lost the argument.

    Im not attacking you, I am saying that you there are ways to deal with conditions. Use them instead of pleading developers to deal with them for you.
    I understand that in your mind conditions are OP and nerfing them is good, but I am certain that if condi nerf will just bring bunkers back online.

    And the double down.Why is it so bad to have more then one avenue to deal with conditions. And the current bunkers are condition based, so the fear you have is already here.

    there is MANY ways of dealing with conditions, MUCH MUCH more then dealing with power. Its a fact.

    States "Its a fact", doesn't give examples. With power you can kite, you can use protection, you can dodge(most conditions come from pulsing aoe fields which you have to double dodge out of or they come from passive traits of the type next hit will do x conditions and most attacks are not well telegraphed), you can use channeled block( this stops also conditions that are thrown but not the ones on you) , you can get toughness, you can get vitalit, you can use Agis, you can use healing, you can use CCs they are not doing damage if they can't move , you can use traits or abilities that make you uncrittable , or traits that give % reduction and most of all you can use all kinds of conditions to reduce power too nothing slow, chill, Weakness, cripple, immobile.
    Ranged power damage is probably the worst but it can be reflected, while condi ranged damage reflected is bad since you need to be condition build to make use of it since it scales by the defenders condition damage.

    dodge, block,blind, los,cleanse, heal through, convert, use resistance, toss at someone else, reflect/proj block if its projectile, invulnerable the application or the damage, convert into healing with glint/defiance stance. you can also build extra condi defence with traits/runes like resistance rune or -% condi duration with mirage on heal trait for example. Plenty of options

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    You are refusing to learn important part of the game ( cleansing and condition management ).
    Instead you want blanked condi nerf that will make bunker meta where build with perma protection, toughness and perma weakness can counter both condi and power and thus never die/be pressured.

    Pretty much.

    Also seem to neglect that this wouldn't be the only change. If this got put in it would come with nerfs to cleanse. They would still die and complain about dying.

    So you both agree that you have nothing constructive to add and just say people are bad.
    You know attacking the person and not the argument means that you lost the argument.

    Im not attacking you, I am saying that you there are ways to deal with conditions. Use them instead of pleading developers to deal with them for you.
    I understand that in your mind conditions are OP and nerfing them is good, but I am certain that if condi nerf will just bring bunkers back online.

    And the double down.Why is it so bad to have more then one avenue to deal with conditions. And the current bunkers are condition based, so the fear you have is already here.

    there is MANY ways of dealing with conditions, MUCH MUCH more then dealing with power. Its a fact.

    States "Its a fact", doesn't give examples. With power you can kite, you can use protection, you can dodge(most conditions come from pulsing aoe fields which you have to double dodge out of or they come from passive traits of the type next hit will do x conditions and most attacks are not well telegraphed), you can use channeled block( this stops also conditions that are thrown but not the ones on you) , you can get toughness, you can get vitalit, you can use Agis, you can use healing, you can use CCs they are not doing damage if they can't move , you can use traits or abilities that make you uncrittable , or traits that give % reduction and most of all you can use all kinds of conditions to reduce power too nothing slow, chill, Weakness, cripple, immobile.
    Ranged power damage is probably the worst but it can be reflected, while condi ranged damage reflected is bad since you need to be condition build to make use of it since it scales by the defenders condition damage.

    dodge, block,blind, los,cleanse, heal through, convert, use resistance, toss at someone else, reflect/proj block if its projectile, invulnerable the application or the damage, convert into healing with glint/defiance stance. you can also build extra condi defence with traits/runes like resistance rune or -% condi duration with mirage on heal trait for example. Plenty of options

    Statement was that there are "MUCH MUCH more ways" to deal with it which is incorrect, by looks of it they are less options to deal with conditions. They are pretty binary you have enough cleanse to deal with them or you don't pretty predetermine.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    You are refusing to learn important part of the game ( cleansing and condition management ).
    Instead you want blanked condi nerf that will make bunker meta where build with perma protection, toughness and perma weakness can counter both condi and power and thus never die/be pressured.

    Pretty much.

    Also seem to neglect that this wouldn't be the only change. If this got put in it would come with nerfs to cleanse. They would still die and complain about dying.

    So you both agree that you have nothing constructive to add and just say people are bad.
    You know attacking the person and not the argument means that you lost the argument.

    Im not attacking you, I am saying that you there are ways to deal with conditions. Use them instead of pleading developers to deal with them for you.
    I understand that in your mind conditions are OP and nerfing them is good, but I am certain that if condi nerf will just bring bunkers back online.

    And the double down.Why is it so bad to have more then one avenue to deal with conditions. And the current bunkers are condition based, so the fear you have is already here.

    there is MANY ways of dealing with conditions, MUCH MUCH more then dealing with power. Its a fact.

    States "Its a fact", doesn't give examples. With power you can kite, you can use protection, you can dodge(most conditions come from pulsing aoe fields which you have to double dodge out of or they come from passive traits of the type next hit will do x conditions and most attacks are not well telegraphed), you can use channeled block( this stops also conditions that are thrown but not the ones on you) , you can get toughness, you can get vitalit, you can use Agis, you can use healing, you can use CCs they are not doing damage if they can't move , you can use traits or abilities that make you uncrittable , or traits that give % reduction and most of all you can use all kinds of conditions to reduce power too nothing slow, chill, Weakness, cripple, immobile.
    Ranged power damage is probably the worst but it can be reflected, while condi ranged damage reflected is bad since you need to be condition build to make use of it since it scales by the defenders condition damage.

    dodge, block,blind, los,cleanse, heal through, convert, use resistance, toss at someone else, reflect/proj block if its projectile, invulnerable the application or the damage, convert into healing with glint/defiance stance. you can also build extra condi defence with traits/runes like resistance rune or -% condi duration with mirage on heal trait for example. Plenty of options

    Statement was that there are "MUCH MUCH more ways" to deal with it which is incorrect, by looks of it they are less options to deal with conditions. They are pretty binary you have enough cleanse to deal with them or you don't pretty predetermine.

    you decided to ignore 15 other ways of dealing with conditions, shrug

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    You are refusing to learn important part of the game ( cleansing and condition management ).
    Instead you want blanked condi nerf that will make bunker meta where build with perma protection, toughness and perma weakness can counter both condi and power and thus never die/be pressured.

    Pretty much.

    Also seem to neglect that this wouldn't be the only change. If this got put in it would come with nerfs to cleanse. They would still die and complain about dying.

    So you both agree that you have nothing constructive to add and just say people are bad.
    You know attacking the person and not the argument means that you lost the argument.

    Im not attacking you, I am saying that you there are ways to deal with conditions. Use them instead of pleading developers to deal with them for you.
    I understand that in your mind conditions are OP and nerfing them is good, but I am certain that if condi nerf will just bring bunkers back online.

    And the double down.Why is it so bad to have more then one avenue to deal with conditions. And the current bunkers are condition based, so the fear you have is already here.

    there is MANY ways of dealing with conditions, MUCH MUCH more then dealing with power. Its a fact.

    States "Its a fact", doesn't give examples. With power you can kite, you can use protection, you can dodge(most conditions come from pulsing aoe fields which you have to double dodge out of or they come from passive traits of the type next hit will do x conditions and most attacks are not well telegraphed), you can use channeled block( this stops also conditions that are thrown but not the ones on you) , you can get toughness, you can get vitalit, you can use Agis, you can use healing, you can use CCs they are not doing damage if they can't move , you can use traits or abilities that make you uncrittable , or traits that give % reduction and most of all you can use all kinds of conditions to reduce power too nothing slow, chill, Weakness, cripple, immobile.
    Ranged power damage is probably the worst but it can be reflected, while condi ranged damage reflected is bad since you need to be condition build to make use of it since it scales by the defenders condition damage.

    dodge, block,blind, los,cleanse, heal through, convert, use resistance, toss at someone else, reflect/proj block if its projectile, invulnerable the application or the damage, convert into healing with glint/defiance stance. you can also build extra condi defence with traits/runes like resistance rune or -% condi duration with mirage on heal trait for example. Plenty of options

    Statement was that there are "MUCH MUCH more ways" to deal with it which is incorrect, by looks of it they are less options to deal with conditions. They are pretty binary you have enough cleanse to deal with them or you don't pretty predetermine.

    you decided to ignore 15 other ways of dealing with conditions, shrug

    Most of which affect power damage more then they do to conditions.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @Vancho.8750 like conveting,cleansing, tossing them away, going invulnerable, gaining resistance or healing through them, converting into healing, eating through with shroud right ?

    EDIT Just look at meta builds and how many ways each of them has to deal with condis.
    Ever power rev "know" for its weakness to conditions has resistance rune that reduces its duration by 25%, gains 4s of resistance due to it, and has skill that converts damage into healing that equals full heal against most condi builds.
    Most builds have even easier time

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    You are refusing to learn important part of the game ( cleansing and condition management ).
    Instead you want blanked condi nerf that will make bunker meta where build with perma protection, toughness and perma weakness can counter both condi and power and thus never die/be pressured.

    Pretty much.

    Also seem to neglect that this wouldn't be the only change. If this got put in it would come with nerfs to cleanse. They would still die and complain about dying.

    So you both agree that you have nothing constructive to add and just say people are bad.
    You know attacking the person and not the argument means that you lost the argument.

    Im not attacking you, I am saying that you there are ways to deal with conditions. Use them instead of pleading developers to deal with them for you.
    I understand that in your mind conditions are OP and nerfing them is good, but I am certain that if condi nerf will just bring bunkers back online.

    And the double down.Why is it so bad to have more then one avenue to deal with conditions. And the current bunkers are condition based, so the fear you have is already here.

    there is MANY ways of dealing with conditions, MUCH MUCH more then dealing with power. Its a fact.

    States "Its a fact", doesn't give examples. With power you can kite, you can use protection, you can dodge(most conditions come from pulsing aoe fields which you have to double dodge out of or they come from passive traits of the type next hit will do x conditions and most attacks are not well telegraphed), you can use channeled block( this stops also conditions that are thrown but not the ones on you) , you can get toughness, you can get vitalit, you can use Agis, you can use healing, you can use CCs they are not doing damage if they can't move , you can use traits or abilities that make you uncrittable , or traits that give % reduction and most of all you can use all kinds of conditions to reduce power too nothing slow, chill, Weakness, cripple, immobile.
    Ranged power damage is probably the worst but it can be reflected, while condi ranged damage reflected is bad since you need to be condition build to make use of it since it scales by the defenders condition damage.

    dodge, block,blind, los,cleanse, heal through, convert, use resistance, toss at someone else, reflect/proj block if its projectile, invulnerable the application or the damage, convert into healing with glint/defiance stance. you can also build extra condi defence with traits/runes like resistance rune or -% condi duration with mirage on heal trait for example. Plenty of options

    Statement was that there are "MUCH MUCH more ways" to deal with it which is incorrect, by looks of it they are less options to deal with conditions. They are pretty binary you have enough cleanse to deal with them or you don't pretty predetermine.

    1. Conditions can be cleansed, retroactively negating all damage. There are plenty of skills and traits and runes and weapon skills that will cleanse or convert conditions.
    2. Conditions can be negated with resistance.
    3. Multiple runes have -% based incoming condition duration.
    4. A large number of traits provide the -% based incoming condition duration or flat -% based incoming condition damage reduction.
    5. Conditions can be retroactively negated with true invulnerability. You can have 1,000,000 damage in conditions on you but if you activate an invuln before they tick and they don't last longer than the invuln you will survive it suffering 0 damage. Invulnerability will block power damage and condition damage, but it won't undo the effects of a power damage attack the way Invuln stops a condition attack that's already landed before the skill effects have any result.
    6. Conditions can be brute forced through with straight healing in ways power damage can't be. If you have 4k health and take a 5k power attack you go into down state. You die, you don't get to try to heal through that. If you have 4k health and take a 5k condition damage attack and your healing skill heals you for 5k, you can still cast your heal through the condition damage and at the end of it you'll still be at 4k health and you'll live, provided we aren't talking about poison in specific.

    These are all ways conditions can be countered that don't apply to power damage due to the over time nature of condition damage. Power damage has it's own weaknesses; toughness, protection, weakness, % incoming damage reduction through things like traits (Which tend to be minor like 10% max while the traits that reducing incoming condition damage or duration tend to be 20%-30%). I also don't think there's any runes in the game that provide a flat -25% passive incoming power damage reduction the way there are for conditions.

    Not to mention that condition attacks still operate on the same principals as power damage and are just as avoidable with evades, blocks, blinds, preemptive invuln. Conditions have never been this unstoppable thing that's just impossible to avoid. There's more counter play to conditions but I'd still say they both have plenty of counter play.

    I will say the randomness of weakness does feel particularly bad to suffer under for power builds. I wouldn't mind seeing weakness instead of being a 50% chance to deal a glancing blow to be a flat -40% outgoing power damage to nip some of the randomness out of it. I'm actually not sure the exact dps number weakness actually cuts power damage. 50% chance to glance, glancing blows do -50% lower damage and lose all critical damage not sure exactly what percentage damage reduction that ultimately comes out on average.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    What if weakness reduced the duration of half of the applied conditions by % maybe 50 maybe lower.

    should cleansing heal back all the damage you took recently?
    should resistance make you 100% immune to power damage?
    Find out on the next episode of forum in a nutshell.
    BTW power builds are starting to dominate over condi builds again, yet you people keep thinking up elaborate ways to nerf condi every time.
    If condi builds become a problem you take resist or rev rune and you are fine, or slot more cleanse. If power builds like rev/thief overperfor then there is no counterplay to that lul

    Cleanse heals now?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    What if weakness reduced the duration of half of the applied conditions by % maybe 50 maybe lower.

    should cleansing heal back all the damage you took recently?
    should resistance make you 100% immune to power damage?
    Find out on the next episode of forum in a nutshell.
    BTW power builds are starting to dominate over condi builds again, yet you people keep thinking up elaborate ways to nerf condi every time.
    If condi builds become a problem you take resist or rev rune and you are fine, or slot more cleanse. If power builds like rev/thief overperfor then there is no counterplay to that lul

    Cleanse heals now?

    reading and understanding failed you friend

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    What if weakness reduced the duration of half of the applied conditions by % maybe 50 maybe lower.

    should cleansing heal back all the damage you took recently?
    should resistance make you 100% immune to power damage?
    Find out on the next episode of forum in a nutshell.
    BTW power builds are starting to dominate over condi builds again, yet you people keep thinking up elaborate ways to nerf condi every time.
    If condi builds become a problem you take resist or rev rune and you are fine, or slot more cleanse. If power builds like rev/thief overperfor then there is no counterplay to that lul

    Cleanse heals now?

    reading and understanding failed you friend

    I guess missed smth that made that make sense mb.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    What if weakness reduced the duration of half of the applied conditions by % maybe 50 maybe lower.

    There are already several ways to counter conditions. You can adjust the numbers on those to balance. Condicleanse, condi transfer, resistance, barrier, raw healing... why would you need a 6th way, this is already too complicated as it is.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    You are refusing to learn important part of the game ( cleansing and condition management ).
    Instead you want blanked condi nerf that will make bunker meta where build with perma protection, toughness and perma weakness can counter both condi and power and thus never die/be pressured.

    Pretty much.

    Also seem to neglect that this wouldn't be the only change. If this got put in it would come with nerfs to cleanse. They would still die and complain about dying.

    So you both agree that you have nothing constructive to add and just say people are bad.
    You know attacking the person and not the argument means that you lost the argument.

    Im not attacking you, I am saying that you there are ways to deal with conditions. Use them instead of pleading developers to deal with them for you.
    I understand that in your mind conditions are OP and nerfing them is good, but I am certain that if condi nerf will just bring bunkers back online.

    And the double down.Why is it so bad to have more then one avenue to deal with conditions. And the current bunkers are condition based, so the fear you have is already here.

    there is MANY ways of dealing with conditions, MUCH MUCH more then dealing with power. Its a fact.

    States "Its a fact", doesn't give examples. With power you can kite, you can use protection, you can dodge(most conditions come from pulsing aoe fields which you have to double dodge out of or they come from passive traits of the type next hit will do x conditions and most attacks are not well telegraphed), you can use channeled block( this stops also conditions that are thrown but not the ones on you) , you can get toughness, you can get vitalit, you can use Agis, you can use healing, you can use CCs they are not doing damage if they can't move , you can use traits or abilities that make you uncrittable , or traits that give % reduction and most of all you can use all kinds of conditions to reduce power too nothing slow, chill, Weakness, cripple, immobile.
    Ranged power damage is probably the worst but it can be reflected, while condi ranged damage reflected is bad since you need to be condition build to make use of it since it scales by the defenders condition damage.

    Takes part in discussion, pretends he doesn't know what the other guy is talking about. Congrats, bro! You win the internet!

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    What if weakness reduced the duration of half of the applied conditions by % maybe 50 maybe lower.

    There are already several ways to counter conditions. You can adjust the numbers on those to balance. Condicleanse, condi transfer, resistance, barrier, raw healing... why would you need a 6th way, this is already too complicated as it is.

    You forgot Auras but everyone forgot that those even exist or even what they do.
    Idk currently weakness doesn't do anything against pure condition builds its just there.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    What if weakness reduced the duration of half of the applied conditions by % maybe 50 maybe lower.

    There are already several ways to counter conditions. You can adjust the numbers on those to balance. Condicleanse, condi transfer, resistance, barrier, raw healing... why would you need a 6th way, this is already too complicated as it is.

    You forgot Auras but everyone forgot that those even exist or even what they do.
    Idk currently weakness doesn't do anything against pure condition builds its just there.

    it reduces endurance regeneration and reduces power damage.
    suprise, condi builds run usually carrior with 900 power.
    My condi mes deals I guess about ~20-25% of its damage as power damage and relies on its dodge.
    Weakness is MUCH weaker against condi builds but its not useless.

    EDIT
    In similar note, condi cleanse is not useless against power builds.
    Removing fear,immob,cripple,chill,weakness,blind and vulnerability is important too and when you have build like holo that can run 20-25might they can still apply 2k+ condi damage simply due to hight might.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    What if weakness reduced the duration of half of the applied conditions by % maybe 50 maybe lower.

    There are already several ways to counter conditions. You can adjust the numbers on those to balance. Condicleanse, condi transfer, resistance, barrier, raw healing... why would you need a 6th way, this is already too complicated as it is.

    You forgot Auras but everyone forgot that those even exist or even what they do.
    Idk currently weakness doesn't do anything against pure condition builds its just there.

    it reduces endurance regeneration and reduces power damage.
    suprise, condi builds run usually carrior with 900 power.
    My condi mes deals I guess about ~20-25% of its damage as power damage and relies on its dodge.
    Weakness is MUCH weaker against condi builds but its not useless.

    EDIT
    In similar note, condi cleanse is not useless against power builds.
    Removing fear,immob,cripple,chill,weakness,blind and vulnerability is important too and when you have build like holo that can run 20-25might they can still apply 2k+ condi damage simply due to hight might.

    Well you have convinced me Weakness is an overloaded condition, it doesn't need more effects, it probably even needs nerfs.