For the love of Grenth, stop niggling w/ Shades in competitive play! Shave some areas and fix stuff! — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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For the love of Grenth, stop niggling w/ Shades in competitive play! Shave some areas and fix stuff!

Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited July 29, 2020 in PVP

Huggies and Kissies everyone! Enjoy! <3

<3 Retain use of all slot skills while in Death Shroud and Reaper Shroud.

<3 Life Force is now purely a resource to fuel Shroud skills, not an extra health bar.

<3 Improve Life Force generation mechanics. All attacks generate Life Force.

<3 Shave a bunch of slow casting skills by ¼s to ½s

<3 Reduce all ranged AoE and PBAoE attacks to 3 targets max. Increase damage some to compensate.

<3 Add a self only Portal option utility to the following…
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper's_Mark
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Darkness

<3 Add Ground Target Positioning utility to the following…
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enfeebling_Blood
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unholy_Feast

<3 Change to Teleport directly to target utility on the following…
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Locust
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Grasp

<3 Shade Revamp
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shade
Change Manifest Shade to a ground target movement skill, and remove Shades and AoE damage function from the equation. This would provide the much needed mobility for necro and reduce some of the unhealthy AoE ranged damage spam in wvw. Let’s call this new skill “Shifting Sands”...
“Shifting Sands uses some of your life force to move around the battle field... Blah blah blah”
Damage: X
Cripple: (2s)
Number of Targets: 1
Radius: 130
Range: 900
*All other shroud skills remain the same, sans the now gone Shades.

<3 Sand Swell Revamp
Change https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Swell to 1,200 range. Remove the damage and boon conversion function. Reduce the cooldown. Make it break stun when used. Similar to skills like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadowstep and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blink
“Plunge into the ground, creating a portal through Tyria for allied use. Grant allies using this passage a health barrier. Break Stun.”
Barrier: 1,618
Duration: (8s)
Radius: 180
Range: 1,200
Break Stun
Recharge: (30s)

<3 Greatsword Revamp
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dusk_Strike
½ second activation time.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fading_Twilight
½ second activation time.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilling_Scythe
¾ second activation time. 1s of Chill

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gravedigger
600 RANGE LEAP ATTACK (not ground target)
Damage: X
Health Threshold: 50%
Number of Targets: 3
Recharge Reduced: 100%
Combo Finisher: Whirl

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Spiral
600 RANGE DASH FORWARD
Damage (6x): X
12 Vulnerability: (10s)
Life Force: 2%
Number of Targets: 3

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nightfall
900 RANGE GROUND TARGET TELEPORT
Damage: X
Boons Converted to Conditions: 4
Number of Targets: 3
Pulses: 4
Interval: (2s)
Maximum Radius: 360
Combo Field: Dark

<3 Add Stealth to the following… Also fits the theme from character creation… “A necromancer's closest companion is death. In acknowledgement of this, I mark my face with the symbol of a _____. “ “Ghostly Wraith ("ghostly wraith") — A wraith is a creature of energy, and its cunning helps it elude its enemies. What you cannot see...can kill you.”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Walk
Stealth: (5s)
Resistance: (5s)
Breaks Stun
Recharge Life Force while in Stealth
*You may return to your initial position by using Spectral Recall.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Wall
Stealth: (5s)
Resistance: (5s)
Fear (1s): Involuntary retreat; unable to act; stacks duration.
Number of Targets: 10
Duration: (6s)
Combo Field: Ethereal
Range: 900
Unblockable

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Gasp... Rename to something like “One With Shadows” or whatever… Add “Increased stealth duration from Necromancer skills. Gain https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Life_force while you are in stealth”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dark_Pact
Damage: X
Stealth: (3s)
Self-Bleeding: (10s) 440 Damage
Boons Converted to Conditions: 2
Range: 600

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Locust_Swarm
Damage: X
Swiftness: (15s)
Stealth: (3s)
Life Force: 1.5%
Number of Impacts: 10
Number of Targets: 3
Duration: (10s)
Radius: 210

<3

Comments

  • DonNee.5128DonNee.5128 Member ✭✭

    ye finally give nec more ports than thief

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    "Much needed mobility" OMEGALUL

    Wait is this satire? I hope so

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    While I do agree that Necro needs some weapon based mobility so not every build ever relies on Flesh Wurm + Spectral Walk just to somewhat imitate the baseline mobility of everything else (still with the caveat of needing to be set up), this is way too much.

    As compensation for the Shroud health bar I'd much rather get some duration blocks and invulns in the kit, rather than teleports and stealth all over the place.

    In general though I don't understand why Anet struggles so much with Necro all these years, when they have shown with Holosmith and Mallyx/Corruption that they can make Reaper and Scourge concepts work better, if not bound by their silly idea of what Necro is supposed to be.

    You can't design a profession to be completely defenseless and immobile, and still have it be good without being way overbearing in some other aspect, like Scourge absolutely relying on overbearing AoE spam - or being utterly useless.

    Just give it some slight scaling defenses and mobility already and then balance it around the same tools everybody else but Necro has, rather than just loading up shroud mechanics with the majority of Necro's power, and then going back and forth from overbaring to useless over and over again. It's faulty design.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Now i understand "love makes blind".

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Would be interesting if they ever removed the 50% damage reduction of shroud and replaced it with immunity towards crits.

    To counter conditions aswell they should make it reduce 50% of incoming condition duration instead.

    These changes would mean using shroud at the right time would provide way more defense than it currently does without having to resort to blocks/evades or invulns, coupled with better life force scaling and sources of course.

    Always made sense to me damaging an enemy would build some life force regardless of skill used.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:
    While I do agree that Necro needs some weapon based mobility so not every build ever relies on Flesh Wurm + Spectral Walk just to somewhat imitate the baseline mobility of everything else (still with the caveat of needing to be set up), this is way too much.

    As compensation for the Shroud health bar I'd much rather get some duration blocks and invulns in the kit, rather than teleports and stealth all over the place.

    In general though I don't understand why Anet struggles so much with Necro all these years, when they have shown with Holosmith and Mallyx/Corruption that they can make Reaper and Scourge concepts work better, if not bound by their silly idea of what Necro is supposed to be.

    You can't design a profession to be completely defenseless and immobile, and still have it be good without being way overbearing in some other aspect, like Scourge absolutely relying on overbearing AoE spam - or being utterly useless.

    Just give it some slight scaling defenses and mobility already and then balance it around the same tools everybody else but Necro has, rather than just loading up shroud mechanics with the majority of Necro's power, and then going back and forth from overbaring to useless over and over again. It's faulty design.

    I don't think most necro weapons need mobility since most of them are ranged.
    Maybe Greatsword needs a little dash on death spiral like 300 or 450 range one , I know that Grasping darkness is supposed to be the gap closer skill but it bugs out constantly, and maybe little bit bigger radius on gravedigger(but that just wishfull thinking).
    Maybe daggers can get movement ability but they are kinda weird since they are melee but also ranged.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    While I do agree that Necro needs some weapon based mobility so not every build ever relies on Flesh Wurm + Spectral Walk just to somewhat imitate the baseline mobility of everything else (still with the caveat of needing to be set up), this is way too much.

    As compensation for the Shroud health bar I'd much rather get some duration blocks and invulns in the kit, rather than teleports and stealth all over the place.

    In general though I don't understand why Anet struggles so much with Necro all these years, when they have shown with Holosmith and Mallyx/Corruption that they can make Reaper and Scourge concepts work better, if not bound by their silly idea of what Necro is supposed to be.

    You can't design a profession to be completely defenseless and immobile, and still have it be good without being way overbearing in some other aspect, like Scourge absolutely relying on overbearing AoE spam - or being utterly useless.

    Just give it some slight scaling defenses and mobility already and then balance it around the same tools everybody else but Necro has, rather than just loading up shroud mechanics with the majority of Necro's power, and then going back and forth from overbaring to useless over and over again. It's faulty design.

    I don't think most necro weapons need mobility since most of them are ranged.
    Maybe Greatsword needs a little dash on death spiral like 300 or 450 range one , I know that Grasping darkness is supposed to be the gap closer skill but it bugs out constantly, and maybe little bit bigger radius on gravedigger(but that just wishfull thinking).
    Maybe daggers can get movement ability but they are kinda weird since they are melee but also ranged.

    It's less so about gap closers for me than about escapes. There is a reason most Necro builds are stuck with Wurm and Walk, since when you get jumped as Necro there are just no tools to escape and very few to make yourself properly unattractive as target.
    I think core Shroud since the damage nerfs is about the only thing that makes people think twice about running a train over Necro since launch, except maybe PoF launch state Scourge by merits of sheer AoE pressure, but that's not a healthy was of doing things.

    Most Necro weapons feel incredibly clunky to me to defend yourself with, especially melee and against multiple targets (except for maybe spamming Staff Marks and then that's it), yet there aren't really any tools to get out of situations like that aside from having a Flesh Wurm setup somewhere - or godlike kiting to try to never get into them in the first place.
    That's the biggest problem with necro to me, it's combination of lack of escapes, lack of scaling defenses and lack of point blank AoE pressure (outside of Shroud) make it just so incredibly easy to run into the ground without a chance.

    Plenty other professions have ranged weapons with escape tools, or at the very least a melee set to swap to for mobility/mitigation, or at the very very least, massive AoE pressure (and being supported by active defense in the Utility slots). Necro only has the binary Shroud which is either on or off, and most problematically has the same counter as if it weren't there - just keep running the Nec over like a train and CC. Same with Lich.

    The answer to everything a profession can do shouldn't be the same, to just pile on, otherwise it's fairly unengaging both to play and play against, at least imo.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    While I do agree that Necro needs some weapon based mobility so not every build ever relies on Flesh Wurm + Spectral Walk just to somewhat imitate the baseline mobility of everything else (still with the caveat of needing to be set up), this is way too much.

    As compensation for the Shroud health bar I'd much rather get some duration blocks and invulns in the kit, rather than teleports and stealth all over the place.

    In general though I don't understand why Anet struggles so much with Necro all these years, when they have shown with Holosmith and Mallyx/Corruption that they can make Reaper and Scourge concepts work better, if not bound by their silly idea of what Necro is supposed to be.

    You can't design a profession to be completely defenseless and immobile, and still have it be good without being way overbearing in some other aspect, like Scourge absolutely relying on overbearing AoE spam - or being utterly useless.

    Just give it some slight scaling defenses and mobility already and then balance it around the same tools everybody else but Necro has, rather than just loading up shroud mechanics with the majority of Necro's power, and then going back and forth from overbaring to useless over and over again. It's faulty design.

    I don't think most necro weapons need mobility since most of them are ranged.
    Maybe Greatsword needs a little dash on death spiral like 300 or 450 range one , I know that Grasping darkness is supposed to be the gap closer skill but it bugs out constantly, and maybe little bit bigger radius on gravedigger(but that just wishfull thinking).
    Maybe daggers can get movement ability but they are kinda weird since they are melee but also ranged.

    It's less so about gap closers for me than about escapes. There is a reason most Necro builds are stuck with Wurm and Walk, since when you get jumped as Necro there are just no tools to escape and very few to make yourself properly unattractive as target.
    I think core Shroud since the damage nerfs is about the only thing that makes people think twice about running a train over Necro since launch, except maybe PoF launch state Scourge by merits of sheer AoE pressure, but that's not a healthy was of doing things.

    Most Necro weapons feel incredibly clunky to me to defend yourself with, especially melee and against multiple targets (except for maybe spamming Staff Marks and then that's it), yet there aren't really any tools to get out of situations like that aside from having a Flesh Wurm setup somewhere - or godlike kiting to try to never get into them in the first place.
    That's the biggest problem with necro to me, it's combination of lack of escapes, lack of scaling defenses and lack of point blank AoE pressure (outside of Shroud) make it just so incredibly easy to run into the ground without a chance.

    Plenty other professions have ranged weapons with escape tools, or at the very least a melee set to swap to for mobility/mitigation, or at the very very least, massive AoE pressure (and being supported by active defense in the Utility slots). Necro only has the binary Shroud which is either on or off, and most problematically has the same counter as if it weren't there - just keep running the Nec over like a train and CC. Same with Lich.

    The answer to everything a profession can do shouldn't be the same, to just pile on, otherwise it's fairly unengaging both to play and play against, at least imo.

    Necro is a attractive target to teams because they hit hard and have very high in fight sustain, a oh kitten reliable escape is not there for a reason, only having a preplanned escape makes more sense balance wise.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    While I do agree that Necro needs some weapon based mobility so not every build ever relies on Flesh Wurm + Spectral Walk just to somewhat imitate the baseline mobility of everything else (still with the caveat of needing to be set up), this is way too much.

    As compensation for the Shroud health bar I'd much rather get some duration blocks and invulns in the kit, rather than teleports and stealth all over the place.

    In general though I don't understand why Anet struggles so much with Necro all these years, when they have shown with Holosmith and Mallyx/Corruption that they can make Reaper and Scourge concepts work better, if not bound by their silly idea of what Necro is supposed to be.

    You can't design a profession to be completely defenseless and immobile, and still have it be good without being way overbearing in some other aspect, like Scourge absolutely relying on overbearing AoE spam - or being utterly useless.

    Just give it some slight scaling defenses and mobility already and then balance it around the same tools everybody else but Necro has, rather than just loading up shroud mechanics with the majority of Necro's power, and then going back and forth from overbaring to useless over and over again. It's faulty design.

    I don't think most necro weapons need mobility since most of them are ranged.
    Maybe Greatsword needs a little dash on death spiral like 300 or 450 range one , I know that Grasping darkness is supposed to be the gap closer skill but it bugs out constantly, and maybe little bit bigger radius on gravedigger(but that just wishfull thinking).
    Maybe daggers can get movement ability but they are kinda weird since they are melee but also ranged.

    It's less so about gap closers for me than about escapes. There is a reason most Necro builds are stuck with Wurm and Walk, since when you get jumped as Necro there are just no tools to escape and very few to make yourself properly unattractive as target.
    I think core Shroud since the damage nerfs is about the only thing that makes people think twice about running a train over Necro since launch, except maybe PoF launch state Scourge by merits of sheer AoE pressure, but that's not a healthy was of doing things.

    Most Necro weapons feel incredibly clunky to me to defend yourself with, especially melee and against multiple targets (except for maybe spamming Staff Marks and then that's it), yet there aren't really any tools to get out of situations like that aside from having a Flesh Wurm setup somewhere - or godlike kiting to try to never get into them in the first place.
    That's the biggest problem with necro to me, it's combination of lack of escapes, lack of scaling defenses and lack of point blank AoE pressure (outside of Shroud) make it just so incredibly easy to run into the ground without a chance.

    Plenty other professions have ranged weapons with escape tools, or at the very least a melee set to swap to for mobility/mitigation, or at the very very least, massive AoE pressure (and being supported by active defense in the Utility slots). Necro only has the binary Shroud which is either on or off, and most problematically has the same counter as if it weren't there - just keep running the Nec over like a train and CC. Same with Lich.

    The answer to everything a profession can do shouldn't be the same, to just pile on, otherwise it's fairly unengaging both to play and play against, at least imo.

    Necro is a attractive target to teams because they hit hard and have very high in fight sustain, a oh kitten reliable escape is not there for a reason, only having a preplanned escape makes more sense balance wise.

    Yep exactly if it had reliable o kitten buttons it would turn into AoE Deadeye, but then again i wish there was less ragdolling involved in playing the all in profession.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    While I do agree that Necro needs some weapon based mobility so not every build ever relies on Flesh Wurm + Spectral Walk just to somewhat imitate the baseline mobility of everything else (still with the caveat of needing to be set up), this is way too much.

    As compensation for the Shroud health bar I'd much rather get some duration blocks and invulns in the kit, rather than teleports and stealth all over the place.

    In general though I don't understand why Anet struggles so much with Necro all these years, when they have shown with Holosmith and Mallyx/Corruption that they can make Reaper and Scourge concepts work better, if not bound by their silly idea of what Necro is supposed to be.

    You can't design a profession to be completely defenseless and immobile, and still have it be good without being way overbearing in some other aspect, like Scourge absolutely relying on overbearing AoE spam - or being utterly useless.

    Just give it some slight scaling defenses and mobility already and then balance it around the same tools everybody else but Necro has, rather than just loading up shroud mechanics with the majority of Necro's power, and then going back and forth from overbaring to useless over and over again. It's faulty design.

    I don't think most necro weapons need mobility since most of them are ranged.
    Maybe Greatsword needs a little dash on death spiral like 300 or 450 range one , I know that Grasping darkness is supposed to be the gap closer skill but it bugs out constantly, and maybe little bit bigger radius on gravedigger(but that just wishfull thinking).
    Maybe daggers can get movement ability but they are kinda weird since they are melee but also ranged.

    It's less so about gap closers for me than about escapes. There is a reason most Necro builds are stuck with Wurm and Walk, since when you get jumped as Necro there are just no tools to escape and very few to make yourself properly unattractive as target.
    I think core Shroud since the damage nerfs is about the only thing that makes people think twice about running a train over Necro since launch, except maybe PoF launch state Scourge by merits of sheer AoE pressure, but that's not a healthy was of doing things.

    Most Necro weapons feel incredibly clunky to me to defend yourself with, especially melee and against multiple targets (except for maybe spamming Staff Marks and then that's it), yet there aren't really any tools to get out of situations like that aside from having a Flesh Wurm setup somewhere - or godlike kiting to try to never get into them in the first place.
    That's the biggest problem with necro to me, it's combination of lack of escapes, lack of scaling defenses and lack of point blank AoE pressure (outside of Shroud) make it just so incredibly easy to run into the ground without a chance.

    Plenty other professions have ranged weapons with escape tools, or at the very least a melee set to swap to for mobility/mitigation, or at the very very least, massive AoE pressure (and being supported by active defense in the Utility slots). Necro only has the binary Shroud which is either on or off, and most problematically has the same counter as if it weren't there - just keep running the Nec over like a train and CC. Same with Lich.

    The answer to everything a profession can do shouldn't be the same, to just pile on, otherwise it's fairly unengaging both to play and play against, at least imo.

    Necro is a attractive target to teams because they hit hard and have very high in fight sustain, a oh kitten reliable escape is not there for a reason, only having a preplanned escape makes more sense balance wise.

    Yep exactly if it had reliable o kitten buttons it would turn into AoE Deadeye, but then again i wish there was less ragdolling involved in playing the all in profession.

    I agree and can be frustrating as when i played necro a lot in pvp modes have the time success was dependent on smart use of wurm and spec armor for jukes and disengages which can be tedious and difficult against teams that know to destroy any wurm they find. They took the hard hitting undownable monster trope they admitted they went for a little to far. Honestly necro would have been better off doing a bit less damage, having less sustain but having a non pre planned oh kitten escape skill on some of its weapons and on a utility etc. Unfortunately unless it saw those shaves to dps and sustain slapping on those escape skills would make necros the god class.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    While I do agree that Necro needs some weapon based mobility so not every build ever relies on Flesh Wurm + Spectral Walk just to somewhat imitate the baseline mobility of everything else (still with the caveat of needing to be set up), this is way too much.

    As compensation for the Shroud health bar I'd much rather get some duration blocks and invulns in the kit, rather than teleports and stealth all over the place.

    In general though I don't understand why Anet struggles so much with Necro all these years, when they have shown with Holosmith and Mallyx/Corruption that they can make Reaper and Scourge concepts work better, if not bound by their silly idea of what Necro is supposed to be.

    You can't design a profession to be completely defenseless and immobile, and still have it be good without being way overbearing in some other aspect, like Scourge absolutely relying on overbearing AoE spam - or being utterly useless.

    Just give it some slight scaling defenses and mobility already and then balance it around the same tools everybody else but Necro has, rather than just loading up shroud mechanics with the majority of Necro's power, and then going back and forth from overbaring to useless over and over again. It's faulty design.

    I don't think most necro weapons need mobility since most of them are ranged.
    Maybe Greatsword needs a little dash on death spiral like 300 or 450 range one , I know that Grasping darkness is supposed to be the gap closer skill but it bugs out constantly, and maybe little bit bigger radius on gravedigger(but that just wishfull thinking).
    Maybe daggers can get movement ability but they are kinda weird since they are melee but also ranged.

    It's less so about gap closers for me than about escapes. There is a reason most Necro builds are stuck with Wurm and Walk, since when you get jumped as Necro there are just no tools to escape and very few to make yourself properly unattractive as target.
    I think core Shroud since the damage nerfs is about the only thing that makes people think twice about running a train over Necro since launch, except maybe PoF launch state Scourge by merits of sheer AoE pressure, but that's not a healthy was of doing things.

    Most Necro weapons feel incredibly clunky to me to defend yourself with, especially melee and against multiple targets (except for maybe spamming Staff Marks and then that's it), yet there aren't really any tools to get out of situations like that aside from having a Flesh Wurm setup somewhere - or godlike kiting to try to never get into them in the first place.
    That's the biggest problem with necro to me, it's combination of lack of escapes, lack of scaling defenses and lack of point blank AoE pressure (outside of Shroud) make it just so incredibly easy to run into the ground without a chance.

    Plenty other professions have ranged weapons with escape tools, or at the very least a melee set to swap to for mobility/mitigation, or at the very very least, massive AoE pressure (and being supported by active defense in the Utility slots). Necro only has the binary Shroud which is either on or off, and most problematically has the same counter as if it weren't there - just keep running the Nec over like a train and CC. Same with Lich.

    The answer to everything a profession can do shouldn't be the same, to just pile on, otherwise it's fairly unengaging both to play and play against, at least imo.

    Necro is a attractive target to teams because they hit hard and have very high in fight sustain, a oh kitten reliable escape is not there for a reason, only having a preplanned escape makes more sense balance wise.

    Yep exactly if it had reliable o kitten buttons it would turn into AoE Deadeye, but then again i wish there was less ragdolling involved in playing the all in profession.

    I agree and can be frustrating as when i played necro a lot in pvp modes have the time success was dependent on smart use of wurm and spec armor for jukes and disengages which can be tedious and difficult against teams that know to destroy any wurm they find. They took the hard hitting undownable monster trope they admitted they went for a little to far. Honestly necro would have been better off doing a bit less damage, having less sustain but having a non pre planned oh kitten escape skill on some of its weapons and on a utility etc. Unfortunately unless it saw those shaves to dps and sustain slapping on those escape skills would make necros the god class.

    I wish at least the stunbreaks did something, i've tried running 3 but saw no difference in running just one. Also i feel like using the worm ends up killing my team most of the time.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    While I do agree that Necro needs some weapon based mobility so not every build ever relies on Flesh Wurm + Spectral Walk just to somewhat imitate the baseline mobility of everything else (still with the caveat of needing to be set up), this is way too much.

    As compensation for the Shroud health bar I'd much rather get some duration blocks and invulns in the kit, rather than teleports and stealth all over the place.

    In general though I don't understand why Anet struggles so much with Necro all these years, when they have shown with Holosmith and Mallyx/Corruption that they can make Reaper and Scourge concepts work better, if not bound by their silly idea of what Necro is supposed to be.

    You can't design a profession to be completely defenseless and immobile, and still have it be good without being way overbearing in some other aspect, like Scourge absolutely relying on overbearing AoE spam - or being utterly useless.

    Just give it some slight scaling defenses and mobility already and then balance it around the same tools everybody else but Necro has, rather than just loading up shroud mechanics with the majority of Necro's power, and then going back and forth from overbaring to useless over and over again. It's faulty design.

    I don't think most necro weapons need mobility since most of them are ranged.
    Maybe Greatsword needs a little dash on death spiral like 300 or 450 range one , I know that Grasping darkness is supposed to be the gap closer skill but it bugs out constantly, and maybe little bit bigger radius on gravedigger(but that just wishfull thinking).
    Maybe daggers can get movement ability but they are kinda weird since they are melee but also ranged.

    It's less so about gap closers for me than about escapes. There is a reason most Necro builds are stuck with Wurm and Walk, since when you get jumped as Necro there are just no tools to escape and very few to make yourself properly unattractive as target.
    I think core Shroud since the damage nerfs is about the only thing that makes people think twice about running a train over Necro since launch, except maybe PoF launch state Scourge by merits of sheer AoE pressure, but that's not a healthy was of doing things.

    Most Necro weapons feel incredibly clunky to me to defend yourself with, especially melee and against multiple targets (except for maybe spamming Staff Marks and then that's it), yet there aren't really any tools to get out of situations like that aside from having a Flesh Wurm setup somewhere - or godlike kiting to try to never get into them in the first place.
    That's the biggest problem with necro to me, it's combination of lack of escapes, lack of scaling defenses and lack of point blank AoE pressure (outside of Shroud) make it just so incredibly easy to run into the ground without a chance.

    Plenty other professions have ranged weapons with escape tools, or at the very least a melee set to swap to for mobility/mitigation, or at the very very least, massive AoE pressure (and being supported by active defense in the Utility slots). Necro only has the binary Shroud which is either on or off, and most problematically has the same counter as if it weren't there - just keep running the Nec over like a train and CC. Same with Lich.

    The answer to everything a profession can do shouldn't be the same, to just pile on, otherwise it's fairly unengaging both to play and play against, at least imo.

    Necro is a attractive target to teams because they hit hard and have very high in fight sustain, a oh kitten reliable escape is not there for a reason, only having a preplanned escape makes more sense balance wise.

    Necro is an attractive target because it doesn't have escapes/scaling mitigation.

    If you focus the Ranger they can zoom away, block, stealth, immob and run etc.
    If you focus the Engie they can invuln, stealth, zoom away, etc.
    If you focus the Guard they can break focus with invuln at least, Stab/blocks to cover escapes
    If you focus the Thief they can stealth and port away and will on the other side of the map pressuring a point before you know if they even really disengaged
    If you focus Rev they can block, damage convert, have evade tools
    If you focus Mes they can stealth blink, spam so many visual clutter clones you might prefer to jam a spike up your eyes over keeping to play
    If you focus War they can block, damage convert, zoom away
    If you focus Ele they can spam so many evades and invulns you might as well go make a sandwich
    If you focus Necro, they are dead and you outnumber the enemy.

    That's the main difference. Not Necro's hitting way harder than other professions or having more in fight sustain, which isn't true.

    Besides, I'm not arguing to just load up Necro with escape tools and leaving it as is. I specifically said to introduce a small number of which one may have access to one at a time for any given build, so they can then take power out of Shroud and reevaluate the Shroud - non Shroud balance and gameplay feel, so it's less Necro On, Necro Off, and engaging to play and fight both times, without having to be overbearing or antifun to be viable despite it's design shortcomings.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Majy.6792Majy.6792 Member ✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    While I do agree that Necro needs some weapon based mobility so not every build ever relies on Flesh Wurm + Spectral Walk just to somewhat imitate the baseline mobility of everything else (still with the caveat of needing to be set up), this is way too much.

    As compensation for the Shroud health bar I'd much rather get some duration blocks and invulns in the kit, rather than teleports and stealth all over the place.

    In general though I don't understand why Anet struggles so much with Necro all these years, when they have shown with Holosmith and Mallyx/Corruption that they can make Reaper and Scourge concepts work better, if not bound by their silly idea of what Necro is supposed to be.

    You can't design a profession to be completely defenseless and immobile, and still have it be good without being way overbearing in some other aspect, like Scourge absolutely relying on overbearing AoE spam - or being utterly useless.

    Just give it some slight scaling defenses and mobility already and then balance it around the same tools everybody else but Necro has, rather than just loading up shroud mechanics with the majority of Necro's power, and then going back and forth from overbaring to useless over and over again. It's faulty design.

    I don't think most necro weapons need mobility since most of them are ranged.
    Maybe Greatsword needs a little dash on death spiral like 300 or 450 range one , I know that Grasping darkness is supposed to be the gap closer skill but it bugs out constantly, and maybe little bit bigger radius on gravedigger(but that just wishfull thinking).
    Maybe daggers can get movement ability but they are kinda weird since they are melee but also ranged.

    It's less so about gap closers for me than about escapes. There is a reason most Necro builds are stuck with Wurm and Walk, since when you get jumped as Necro there are just no tools to escape and very few to make yourself properly unattractive as target.
    I think core Shroud since the damage nerfs is about the only thing that makes people think twice about running a train over Necro since launch, except maybe PoF launch state Scourge by merits of sheer AoE pressure, but that's not a healthy was of doing things.

    Most Necro weapons feel incredibly clunky to me to defend yourself with, especially melee and against multiple targets (except for maybe spamming Staff Marks and then that's it), yet there aren't really any tools to get out of situations like that aside from having a Flesh Wurm setup somewhere - or godlike kiting to try to never get into them in the first place.
    That's the biggest problem with necro to me, it's combination of lack of escapes, lack of scaling defenses and lack of point blank AoE pressure (outside of Shroud) make it just so incredibly easy to run into the ground without a chance.

    Plenty other professions have ranged weapons with escape tools, or at the very least a melee set to swap to for mobility/mitigation, or at the very very least, massive AoE pressure (and being supported by active defense in the Utility slots). Necro only has the binary Shroud which is either on or off, and most problematically has the same counter as if it weren't there - just keep running the Nec over like a train and CC. Same with Lich.

    The answer to everything a profession can do shouldn't be the same, to just pile on, otherwise it's fairly unengaging both to play and play against, at least imo.

    Necro is a attractive target to teams because they hit hard and have very high in fight sustain, a oh kitten reliable escape is not there for a reason, only having a preplanned escape makes more sense balance wise.

    Necro is an attractive target because it doesn't have escapes/scaling mitigation.

    If you focus the Ranger they can zoom away, block, stealth, immob and run etc.
    If you focus the Engie they can invuln, stealth, zoom away, etc.
    If you focus the Guard they can break focus with invuln at least, Stab/blocks to cover escapes
    If you focus the Thief they can stealth and port away and will on the other side of the map pressuring a point before you know if they even really disengaged
    If you focus Rev they can block, damage convert, have evade tools
    If you focus Mes they can stealth blink, spam so many visual clutter clones you might prefer to jam a spike up your eyes over keeping to play
    If you focus War they can block, damage convert, zoom away
    If you focus Ele they can spam so many evades and invulns you might as well go make a sandwich
    If you focus Necro, they are dead and you outnumber the enemy.

    That's the main difference. Not Necro's hitting way harder than other professions or having more in fight sustain, which isn't true.

    Besides, I'm not arguing to just load up Necro with escape tools and leaving it as is. I specifically said to introduce a small number of which one may have access to one at a time for any given build, so they can then take power out of Shroud and reevaluate the Shroud - non Shroud balance and gameplay feel, so it's less Necro On, Necro Off, and engaging to play and fight both times, without having to be overbearing or antifun to be viable despite it's design shortcomings.

    Definitely. Necro has at most 2 escapes they can take, and one (walk) isn't really an escape because if you are in a position where you can't use terrain to your advantage it doesn't do you any good. Wurm only goes on cd when used, meaning you have minimally 30 seconds before you get any kind of escape after using it. Every other class -- and I mean EVERY other class -- has a mobility escape on short cd. Some have multiple. Try catching a warrior who wants to run away, maybe ranger can keep up, no one else. Necro can not only not escape, but they can not pursue. They can't pursue and have low sustain unless shroud is stacked, meaning it's very easy to disengage and come back to them and kill them. The damage a necro does (which let's be fair is less than several other classes even as reaper) is not nearly enough to warrant the near complete lack of mobility. There's a reason why the best necros are all playing holo right now.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @Majy.6792 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    While I do agree that Necro needs some weapon based mobility so not every build ever relies on Flesh Wurm + Spectral Walk just to somewhat imitate the baseline mobility of everything else (still with the caveat of needing to be set up), this is way too much.

    As compensation for the Shroud health bar I'd much rather get some duration blocks and invulns in the kit, rather than teleports and stealth all over the place.

    In general though I don't understand why Anet struggles so much with Necro all these years, when they have shown with Holosmith and Mallyx/Corruption that they can make Reaper and Scourge concepts work better, if not bound by their silly idea of what Necro is supposed to be.

    You can't design a profession to be completely defenseless and immobile, and still have it be good without being way overbearing in some other aspect, like Scourge absolutely relying on overbearing AoE spam - or being utterly useless.

    Just give it some slight scaling defenses and mobility already and then balance it around the same tools everybody else but Necro has, rather than just loading up shroud mechanics with the majority of Necro's power, and then going back and forth from overbaring to useless over and over again. It's faulty design.

    I don't think most necro weapons need mobility since most of them are ranged.
    Maybe Greatsword needs a little dash on death spiral like 300 or 450 range one , I know that Grasping darkness is supposed to be the gap closer skill but it bugs out constantly, and maybe little bit bigger radius on gravedigger(but that just wishfull thinking).
    Maybe daggers can get movement ability but they are kinda weird since they are melee but also ranged.

    It's less so about gap closers for me than about escapes. There is a reason most Necro builds are stuck with Wurm and Walk, since when you get jumped as Necro there are just no tools to escape and very few to make yourself properly unattractive as target.
    I think core Shroud since the damage nerfs is about the only thing that makes people think twice about running a train over Necro since launch, except maybe PoF launch state Scourge by merits of sheer AoE pressure, but that's not a healthy was of doing things.

    Most Necro weapons feel incredibly clunky to me to defend yourself with, especially melee and against multiple targets (except for maybe spamming Staff Marks and then that's it), yet there aren't really any tools to get out of situations like that aside from having a Flesh Wurm setup somewhere - or godlike kiting to try to never get into them in the first place.
    That's the biggest problem with necro to me, it's combination of lack of escapes, lack of scaling defenses and lack of point blank AoE pressure (outside of Shroud) make it just so incredibly easy to run into the ground without a chance.

    Plenty other professions have ranged weapons with escape tools, or at the very least a melee set to swap to for mobility/mitigation, or at the very very least, massive AoE pressure (and being supported by active defense in the Utility slots). Necro only has the binary Shroud which is either on or off, and most problematically has the same counter as if it weren't there - just keep running the Nec over like a train and CC. Same with Lich.

    The answer to everything a profession can do shouldn't be the same, to just pile on, otherwise it's fairly unengaging both to play and play against, at least imo.

    Necro is a attractive target to teams because they hit hard and have very high in fight sustain, a oh kitten reliable escape is not there for a reason, only having a preplanned escape makes more sense balance wise.

    Necro is an attractive target because it doesn't have escapes/scaling mitigation.

    If you focus the Ranger they can zoom away, block, stealth, immob and run etc.
    If you focus the Engie they can invuln, stealth, zoom away, etc.
    If you focus the Guard they can break focus with invuln at least, Stab/blocks to cover escapes
    If you focus the Thief they can stealth and port away and will on the other side of the map pressuring a point before you know if they even really disengaged
    If you focus Rev they can block, damage convert, have evade tools
    If you focus Mes they can stealth blink, spam so many visual clutter clones you might prefer to jam a spike up your eyes over keeping to play
    If you focus War they can block, damage convert, zoom away
    If you focus Ele they can spam so many evades and invulns you might as well go make a sandwich
    If you focus Necro, they are dead and you outnumber the enemy.

    That's the main difference. Not Necro's hitting way harder than other professions or having more in fight sustain, which isn't true.

    Besides, I'm not arguing to just load up Necro with escape tools and leaving it as is. I specifically said to introduce a small number of which one may have access to one at a time for any given build, so they can then take power out of Shroud and reevaluate the Shroud - non Shroud balance and gameplay feel, so it's less Necro On, Necro Off, and engaging to play and fight both times, without having to be overbearing or antifun to be viable despite it's design shortcomings.

    Definitely. Necro has at most 2 escapes they can take, and one (walk) isn't really an escape because if you are in a position where you can't use terrain to your advantage it doesn't do you any good. Wurm only goes on cd when used, meaning you have minimally 30 seconds before you get any kind of escape after using it. Every other class -- and I mean EVERY other class -- has a mobility escape on short cd. Some have multiple. Try catching a warrior who wants to run away, maybe ranger can keep up, no one else. Necro can not only not escape, but they can not pursue. They can't pursue and have low sustain unless shroud is stacked, meaning it's very easy to disengage and come back to them and kill them. The damage a necro does (which let's be fair is less than several other classes even as reaper) is not nearly enough to warrant the near complete lack of mobility. There's a reason why the best necros are all playing holo right now.

    Well you are right, since some stuff do little bit too much damage these days even after the 33% reduction like they skipped on having some of their skills getting hit, cause they got a little rework at the same time, or their % modifier didn't get a touch up like the rest.
    I consider Reaper and core necro on the balanced board, i could put scourge up there but i deeply despise its design, so that one can get shafted for all i care, and even then with its annoying anti interactive design it is probably good enough. I don't see many classes that can boast that they have 3 different specks in the meta (even though they kinda have same role).

  • Tinkerer.2167Tinkerer.2167 Member ✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @Majy.6792 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    While I do agree that Necro needs some weapon based mobility so not every build ever relies on Flesh Wurm + Spectral Walk just to somewhat imitate the baseline mobility of everything else (still with the caveat of needing to be set up), this is way too much.

    As compensation for the Shroud health bar I'd much rather get some duration blocks and invulns in the kit, rather than teleports and stealth all over the place.

    In general though I don't understand why Anet struggles so much with Necro all these years, when they have shown with Holosmith and Mallyx/Corruption that they can make Reaper and Scourge concepts work better, if not bound by their silly idea of what Necro is supposed to be.

    You can't design a profession to be completely defenseless and immobile, and still have it be good without being way overbearing in some other aspect, like Scourge absolutely relying on overbearing AoE spam - or being utterly useless.

    Just give it some slight scaling defenses and mobility already and then balance it around the same tools everybody else but Necro has, rather than just loading up shroud mechanics with the majority of Necro's power, and then going back and forth from overbaring to useless over and over again. It's faulty design.

    I don't think most necro weapons need mobility since most of them are ranged.
    Maybe Greatsword needs a little dash on death spiral like 300 or 450 range one , I know that Grasping darkness is supposed to be the gap closer skill but it bugs out constantly, and maybe little bit bigger radius on gravedigger(but that just wishfull thinking).
    Maybe daggers can get movement ability but they are kinda weird since they are melee but also ranged.

    It's less so about gap closers for me than about escapes. There is a reason most Necro builds are stuck with Wurm and Walk, since when you get jumped as Necro there are just no tools to escape and very few to make yourself properly unattractive as target.
    I think core Shroud since the damage nerfs is about the only thing that makes people think twice about running a train over Necro since launch, except maybe PoF launch state Scourge by merits of sheer AoE pressure, but that's not a healthy was of doing things.

    Most Necro weapons feel incredibly clunky to me to defend yourself with, especially melee and against multiple targets (except for maybe spamming Staff Marks and then that's it), yet there aren't really any tools to get out of situations like that aside from having a Flesh Wurm setup somewhere - or godlike kiting to try to never get into them in the first place.
    That's the biggest problem with necro to me, it's combination of lack of escapes, lack of scaling defenses and lack of point blank AoE pressure (outside of Shroud) make it just so incredibly easy to run into the ground without a chance.

    Plenty other professions have ranged weapons with escape tools, or at the very least a melee set to swap to for mobility/mitigation, or at the very very least, massive AoE pressure (and being supported by active defense in the Utility slots). Necro only has the binary Shroud which is either on or off, and most problematically has the same counter as if it weren't there - just keep running the Nec over like a train and CC. Same with Lich.

    The answer to everything a profession can do shouldn't be the same, to just pile on, otherwise it's fairly unengaging both to play and play against, at least imo.

    Necro is a attractive target to teams because they hit hard and have very high in fight sustain, a oh kitten reliable escape is not there for a reason, only having a preplanned escape makes more sense balance wise.

    Necro is an attractive target because it doesn't have escapes/scaling mitigation.

    If you focus the Ranger they can zoom away, block, stealth, immob and run etc.
    If you focus the Engie they can invuln, stealth, zoom away, etc.
    If you focus the Guard they can break focus with invuln at least, Stab/blocks to cover escapes
    If you focus the Thief they can stealth and port away and will on the other side of the map pressuring a point before you know if they even really disengaged
    If you focus Rev they can block, damage convert, have evade tools
    If you focus Mes they can stealth blink, spam so many visual clutter clones you might prefer to jam a spike up your eyes over keeping to play
    If you focus War they can block, damage convert, zoom away
    If you focus Ele they can spam so many evades and invulns you might as well go make a sandwich
    If you focus Necro, they are dead and you outnumber the enemy.

    That's the main difference. Not Necro's hitting way harder than other professions or having more in fight sustain, which isn't true.

    Besides, I'm not arguing to just load up Necro with escape tools and leaving it as is. I specifically said to introduce a small number of which one may have access to one at a time for any given build, so they can then take power out of Shroud and reevaluate the Shroud - non Shroud balance and gameplay feel, so it's less Necro On, Necro Off, and engaging to play and fight both times, without having to be overbearing or antifun to be viable despite it's design shortcomings.

    Definitely. Necro has at most 2 escapes they can take, and one (walk) isn't really an escape because if you are in a position where you can't use terrain to your advantage it doesn't do you any good. Wurm only goes on cd when used, meaning you have minimally 30 seconds before you get any kind of escape after using it. Every other class -- and I mean EVERY other class -- has a mobility escape on short cd. Some have multiple. Try catching a warrior who wants to run away, maybe ranger can keep up, no one else. Necro can not only not escape, but they can not pursue. They can't pursue and have low sustain unless shroud is stacked, meaning it's very easy to disengage and come back to them and kill them. The damage a necro does (which let's be fair is less than several other classes even as reaper) is not nearly enough to warrant the near complete lack of mobility. There's a reason why the best necros are all playing holo right now.

    mobility doesn't always mean good and there's usually tradeoffs. with necro what would you trade?

    ranger, warrior, thief, ele, mes have decent mobility but no where close to necro team fight potential and necro is still over them in team fight meta which tells you something about just having mobility. there's one class that doesn't have insane mobility (without a target) and that's guardian, but they don't have team fight presence either , look where they are in the meta.

    the only reason thief is in the meta is due to roaming/decapping/+1 because of that mobility and that's it, that's a big role in conquest though so while it's annoying you can almost never 1v1 or team fight effectively outside of picking and prodding it still has a firm position in the meta. in fact necro beats out most classes for team fight presence, this is without mobility, giving it mobility would arguably make it better than nade holo and it's completely busted, i speak mostly obviously on reaper but core necro is good against specific comps too.

    would you want necro to just be a roamer / decapper / +1 spec with that added mobility? you have to have a tradeoff for being probably the biggest oppressive team fighter in the game atm, the one class that has both atm is nade holo (and even then even nade holo doesn't have as much in team-fight sustain as necro by far) and with the holo leap nerf now you have to somewhat think when to use the leap because it has important mobility reduction condi removal tied to it w/ zephyr trait instead of mindlessly spam it even though it's still busted the nerf didn't change much.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Majy.6792 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    While I do agree that Necro needs some weapon based mobility so not every build ever relies on Flesh Wurm + Spectral Walk just to somewhat imitate the baseline mobility of everything else (still with the caveat of needing to be set up), this is way too much.

    As compensation for the Shroud health bar I'd much rather get some duration blocks and invulns in the kit, rather than teleports and stealth all over the place.

    In general though I don't understand why Anet struggles so much with Necro all these years, when they have shown with Holosmith and Mallyx/Corruption that they can make Reaper and Scourge concepts work better, if not bound by their silly idea of what Necro is supposed to be.

    You can't design a profession to be completely defenseless and immobile, and still have it be good without being way overbearing in some other aspect, like Scourge absolutely relying on overbearing AoE spam - or being utterly useless.

    Just give it some slight scaling defenses and mobility already and then balance it around the same tools everybody else but Necro has, rather than just loading up shroud mechanics with the majority of Necro's power, and then going back and forth from overbaring to useless over and over again. It's faulty design.

    I don't think most necro weapons need mobility since most of them are ranged.
    Maybe Greatsword needs a little dash on death spiral like 300 or 450 range one , I know that Grasping darkness is supposed to be the gap closer skill but it bugs out constantly, and maybe little bit bigger radius on gravedigger(but that just wishfull thinking).
    Maybe daggers can get movement ability but they are kinda weird since they are melee but also ranged.

    It's less so about gap closers for me than about escapes. There is a reason most Necro builds are stuck with Wurm and Walk, since when you get jumped as Necro there are just no tools to escape and very few to make yourself properly unattractive as target.
    I think core Shroud since the damage nerfs is about the only thing that makes people think twice about running a train over Necro since launch, except maybe PoF launch state Scourge by merits of sheer AoE pressure, but that's not a healthy was of doing things.

    Most Necro weapons feel incredibly clunky to me to defend yourself with, especially melee and against multiple targets (except for maybe spamming Staff Marks and then that's it), yet there aren't really any tools to get out of situations like that aside from having a Flesh Wurm setup somewhere - or godlike kiting to try to never get into them in the first place.
    That's the biggest problem with necro to me, it's combination of lack of escapes, lack of scaling defenses and lack of point blank AoE pressure (outside of Shroud) make it just so incredibly easy to run into the ground without a chance.

    Plenty other professions have ranged weapons with escape tools, or at the very least a melee set to swap to for mobility/mitigation, or at the very very least, massive AoE pressure (and being supported by active defense in the Utility slots). Necro only has the binary Shroud which is either on or off, and most problematically has the same counter as if it weren't there - just keep running the Nec over like a train and CC. Same with Lich.

    The answer to everything a profession can do shouldn't be the same, to just pile on, otherwise it's fairly unengaging both to play and play against, at least imo.

    Necro is a attractive target to teams because they hit hard and have very high in fight sustain, a oh kitten reliable escape is not there for a reason, only having a preplanned escape makes more sense balance wise.

    Necro is an attractive target because it doesn't have escapes/scaling mitigation.

    If you focus the Ranger they can zoom away, block, stealth, immob and run etc.
    If you focus the Engie they can invuln, stealth, zoom away, etc.
    If you focus the Guard they can break focus with invuln at least, Stab/blocks to cover escapes
    If you focus the Thief they can stealth and port away and will on the other side of the map pressuring a point before you know if they even really disengaged
    If you focus Rev they can block, damage convert, have evade tools
    If you focus Mes they can stealth blink, spam so many visual clutter clones you might prefer to jam a spike up your eyes over keeping to play
    If you focus War they can block, damage convert, zoom away
    If you focus Ele they can spam so many evades and invulns you might as well go make a sandwich
    If you focus Necro, they are dead and you outnumber the enemy.

    That's the main difference. Not Necro's hitting way harder than other professions or having more in fight sustain, which isn't true.

    Besides, I'm not arguing to just load up Necro with escape tools and leaving it as is. I specifically said to introduce a small number of which one may have access to one at a time for any given build, so they can then take power out of Shroud and reevaluate the Shroud - non Shroud balance and gameplay feel, so it's less Necro On, Necro Off, and engaging to play and fight both times, without having to be overbearing or antifun to be viable despite it's design shortcomings.

    Definitely. Necro has at most 2 escapes they can take, and one (walk) isn't really an escape because if you are in a position where you can't use terrain to your advantage it doesn't do you any good. Wurm only goes on cd when used, meaning you have minimally 30 seconds before you get any kind of escape after using it. Every other class -- and I mean EVERY other class -- has a mobility escape on short cd. Some have multiple. Try catching a warrior who wants to run away, maybe ranger can keep up, no one else. Necro can not only not escape, but they can not pursue. They can't pursue and have low sustain unless shroud is stacked, meaning it's very easy to disengage and come back to them and kill them. The damage a necro does (which let's be fair is less than several other classes even as reaper) is not nearly enough to warrant the near complete lack of mobility. There's a reason why the best necros are all playing holo right now.

    Well you are right, since some stuff do little bit too much damage these days even after the 33% reduction like they skipped on having some of their skills getting hit, cause they got a little rework at the same time, or their % modifier didn't get a touch up like the rest.
    I consider Reaper and core necro on the balanced board, i could put scourge up there but i deeply despise its design, so that one can get shafted for all i care, and even then with its annoying anti interactive design it is probably good enough. I don't see many classes that can boast that they have 3 different specks in the meta (even though they kinda have same role).

    I don't disagree that core Necro and Reaper are in a decent spot efficacy wise atm (sPvP), but that doesn't mean they got there with good design.
    Scourge on the other hand I would rate fairly lowly atm, and it does a good job at showcasing Necros deficiencies due to lacking a proper Shroud, which serves as band aid for core and Reaper, which goes to show just how bad Necros kit (Weapons + Utilities) is when not carried by Shroud, and depending on how much Shades are buffed or nerfed it bounces from incredibly oppressive to utterly useless just based on those Fx skills.

    To fix Necro's design the core Necro kit in weapons and Utilities needs imo quite a look at, rather than just keep tinkering with and loading power into Shroud.
    Just looking at Traits like Death Perception + Reaper's Onslaught makes my skin crawl with how hacky of a design bandaid that is and how much they had to load into Reaper Shroud to make Reaper viable despite it's awful design and core kit.

    And @Tinkerer.2167, that's what I want as tradeoff. Making Necro feel like a functioning profession out of Shroud at the cost reducing it's Shroud teamfight efficacy.

    The way I like to describe Necro's design issue is with % values.
    While other professions have more cohesive kits to make up the whole 100% that makes up the profession at most times, ebbing and flowing slightly in efficacy between cooldowns, Necro feels like it's 40% of a profession out of Shroud and then 160% in Shroud, leading to a very On and Off feeling, while I'd much rather have it ebb and flow more organically at 80% and 120%, averaging out at the same power level while being more consistent and both more fun to play as well as play against.

    Especially for Scourge, which is lacking the uber Shroud bandaid, that would fix a lot of issues, as a more solid core kit as foundation would make Shades much easier to balance by reducing Scourge's dependency on them as they simply can't fill all the holes Necro has, unless it's bruteforcing it by just being way overly oppressive.

    It would also fix the issue of Necro always having to be carried around by a support the moment it leaves Shroud to cover for it's design issues, in exchange for some in Shroud/peak performance.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This is why players should never dictate balance. Necro especially core has shroud as well as fears out its a$$ giving it great sustain in fights as well as having high dps. Teams focus them because the reak havoc if left unchecked for those reasons and a good reaper or core can use shroud as a carry mechanic to win 1v1 fights even when out played.teams dont just focus necro's cuz their low mobility cuz a decent necro will have a wurm placed well. Yeah their not great mobility does make them easier to focus hense the shroud mechanic and wurm/spec armor. U say what would they do to compensate necro for higher mobility? I'd say any non necro main would say sustain or dps shave would be in order if not both given how high mobility is in usefulness in a game like gw2, without compensation just passing mobility without shaves in other areas would make them the most broken class in gw2 history and lead to so many hard nerfs leaving worse off than now. Careful what ur wishing for.

  • Majy.6792Majy.6792 Member ✭✭

    @Tinkerer.2167 said:

    @Majy.6792 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    While I do agree that Necro needs some weapon based mobility so not every build ever relies on Flesh Wurm + Spectral Walk just to somewhat imitate the baseline mobility of everything else (still with the caveat of needing to be set up), this is way too much.

    As compensation for the Shroud health bar I'd much rather get some duration blocks and invulns in the kit, rather than teleports and stealth all over the place.

    In general though I don't understand why Anet struggles so much with Necro all these years, when they have shown with Holosmith and Mallyx/Corruption that they can make Reaper and Scourge concepts work better, if not bound by their silly idea of what Necro is supposed to be.

    You can't design a profession to be completely defenseless and immobile, and still have it be good without being way overbearing in some other aspect, like Scourge absolutely relying on overbearing AoE spam - or being utterly useless.

    Just give it some slight scaling defenses and mobility already and then balance it around the same tools everybody else but Necro has, rather than just loading up shroud mechanics with the majority of Necro's power, and then going back and forth from overbaring to useless over and over again. It's faulty design.

    I don't think most necro weapons need mobility since most of them are ranged.
    Maybe Greatsword needs a little dash on death spiral like 300 or 450 range one , I know that Grasping darkness is supposed to be the gap closer skill but it bugs out constantly, and maybe little bit bigger radius on gravedigger(but that just wishfull thinking).
    Maybe daggers can get movement ability but they are kinda weird since they are melee but also ranged.

    It's less so about gap closers for me than about escapes. There is a reason most Necro builds are stuck with Wurm and Walk, since when you get jumped as Necro there are just no tools to escape and very few to make yourself properly unattractive as target.
    I think core Shroud since the damage nerfs is about the only thing that makes people think twice about running a train over Necro since launch, except maybe PoF launch state Scourge by merits of sheer AoE pressure, but that's not a healthy was of doing things.

    Most Necro weapons feel incredibly clunky to me to defend yourself with, especially melee and against multiple targets (except for maybe spamming Staff Marks and then that's it), yet there aren't really any tools to get out of situations like that aside from having a Flesh Wurm setup somewhere - or godlike kiting to try to never get into them in the first place.
    That's the biggest problem with necro to me, it's combination of lack of escapes, lack of scaling defenses and lack of point blank AoE pressure (outside of Shroud) make it just so incredibly easy to run into the ground without a chance.

    Plenty other professions have ranged weapons with escape tools, or at the very least a melee set to swap to for mobility/mitigation, or at the very very least, massive AoE pressure (and being supported by active defense in the Utility slots). Necro only has the binary Shroud which is either on or off, and most problematically has the same counter as if it weren't there - just keep running the Nec over like a train and CC. Same with Lich.

    The answer to everything a profession can do shouldn't be the same, to just pile on, otherwise it's fairly unengaging both to play and play against, at least imo.

    Necro is a attractive target to teams because they hit hard and have very high in fight sustain, a oh kitten reliable escape is not there for a reason, only having a preplanned escape makes more sense balance wise.

    Necro is an attractive target because it doesn't have escapes/scaling mitigation.

    If you focus the Ranger they can zoom away, block, stealth, immob and run etc.
    If you focus the Engie they can invuln, stealth, zoom away, etc.
    If you focus the Guard they can break focus with invuln at least, Stab/blocks to cover escapes
    If you focus the Thief they can stealth and port away and will on the other side of the map pressuring a point before you know if they even really disengaged
    If you focus Rev they can block, damage convert, have evade tools
    If you focus Mes they can stealth blink, spam so many visual clutter clones you might prefer to jam a spike up your eyes over keeping to play
    If you focus War they can block, damage convert, zoom away
    If you focus Ele they can spam so many evades and invulns you might as well go make a sandwich
    If you focus Necro, they are dead and you outnumber the enemy.

    That's the main difference. Not Necro's hitting way harder than other professions or having more in fight sustain, which isn't true.

    Besides, I'm not arguing to just load up Necro with escape tools and leaving it as is. I specifically said to introduce a small number of which one may have access to one at a time for any given build, so they can then take power out of Shroud and reevaluate the Shroud - non Shroud balance and gameplay feel, so it's less Necro On, Necro Off, and engaging to play and fight both times, without having to be overbearing or antifun to be viable despite it's design shortcomings.

    Definitely. Necro has at most 2 escapes they can take, and one (walk) isn't really an escape because if you are in a position where you can't use terrain to your advantage it doesn't do you any good. Wurm only goes on cd when used, meaning you have minimally 30 seconds before you get any kind of escape after using it. Every other class -- and I mean EVERY other class -- has a mobility escape on short cd. Some have multiple. Try catching a warrior who wants to run away, maybe ranger can keep up, no one else. Necro can not only not escape, but they can not pursue. They can't pursue and have low sustain unless shroud is stacked, meaning it's very easy to disengage and come back to them and kill them. The damage a necro does (which let's be fair is less than several other classes even as reaper) is not nearly enough to warrant the near complete lack of mobility. There's a reason why the best necros are all playing holo right now.

    mobility doesn't always mean good and there's usually tradeoffs. with necro what would you trade?

    ranger, warrior, thief, ele, mes have decent mobility but no where close to necro team fight potential and necro is still over them in team fight meta which tells you something about just having mobility. there's one class that doesn't have insane mobility (without a target) and that's guardian, but they don't have team fight presence either , look where they are in the meta.

    the only reason thief is in the meta is due to roaming/decapping/+1 because of that mobility and that's it, that's a big role in conquest though so while it's annoying you can almost never 1v1 or team fight effectively outside of picking and prodding it still has a firm position in the meta. in fact necro beats out most classes for team fight presence, this is without mobility, giving it mobility would arguably make it better than nade holo and it's completely busted, i speak mostly obviously on reaper but core necro is good against specific comps too.

    would you want necro to just be a roamer / decapper / +1 spec with that added mobility? you have to have a tradeoff for being probably the biggest oppressive team fighter in the game atm, the one class that has both atm is nade holo (and even then even nade holo doesn't have as much in team-fight sustain as necro by far) and with the holo leap nerf now you have to somewhat think when to use the leap because it has important mobility reduction condi removal tied to it w/ zephyr trait instead of mindlessly spam it even though it's still busted the nerf didn't change much.

    I'm not saying necro is terribly weak but outside of shroud they get demolished quickly because they lack any kind of defensive measures past a very brief fear or two. You can't even think about entering a team fight unless you have some life force built up, and even with shroud a single holo or ranger can push you out of a team fight rather quickly if they hard focus you. I think necro does a lot of things well, but nothing great. The problem is that other classes do some things great, even if they might do other things poorly. That gives them more specialized utility which necro generally lacks. I don't have the solution, it probably requires a large mechanic or ability overhaul, such as re-working shroud entirely. As it stands, necro is generally a tier 2 pick in every category. I actually think necro in both pvp and pve is lacking in the same way... can hold its own but will never be your best pick.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for bringing out an idea for a full revamp. Not gonna champion it as it’s kindof too big for me to assess rn. It seems like your trying to bring all necro specs on the same level as scourge, am I correct in that assessment?

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Thanks for bringing out an idea for a full revamp. Not gonna champion it as it’s kindof too big for me to assess rn. It seems like your trying to bring all necro specs on the same level as scourge, am I correct in that assessment?

    No, ty for posting! I’m just a humble player looking to make a better Necro, and one that fits a bit nicer inside of the GW2 combat design!