From the Devs AMA- “to make power vs. condi into a real choice.” — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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From the Devs AMA- “to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”

Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited August 1, 2020 in PVP

AMA quotes...

“Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”

Here’s how we “make power vs. condi into a real choice.”, and make a better Condition System for competitive gameplay! 👇

1- A stat, that players can build for with gear, that mitigates (not removes) condi damage... Toughness would be my personal preference.

2- Remove condition damage from auto-attacks.

3- Weapon and slot skill attacks designed to do condition damage are changed to DoT (damage over time) skills (like every other game uses successfully) using 1 particular condition damage per tick.

Ranger Shortbow damage type examples using the above suggestion...
~Crossfire- X power damage. No bleeds.
~Poison Volley- X poison DoT over X seconds.
~Quick Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.
~Crippling Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.
~Concussion Shot- X power damage.

*You keep in place all the other secondary effects going on with the skills. So Quick Shot still provides evade and swiftness... Crippling Shot still provides cripple and immobilize...

4- Assign each individual condi weapon skill and slot skill to use only 1 type of DoT damaging condition. You still keep secondary movement impairing and hard conditions on skills...

Look at the difference between these skills and you’ll see what I mean.
• Way crazy and over-the-top condi skill, and highlights the overarching condi issues this game faces... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Spite
• Well designed condi skill, and what I’m talking about with the above with assigning 1 DoT condi to all skills. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Is_Power

5- Cleansing skills become condi DoT damage mitigation (x % damage reduction) skills, but they still remove secondary soft (cripple, chill, ...) and hard (daze, knock down... ) condition effects. These redesigned cleanses do NOT remove condi DoT damage...

6- Skills that produce hard condition effects remain the same.

7- Moa transformation should be classified as a Hard Condition and countered by Stun Break.

8- Add in an “immunity timer” to prevent the chaining of soft and hard CC effects from occurring. Timer starts after being hit with either a soft or hard CC.

9- All stats and equipment remain and function the same way, except expertise...Either remove expertise so the team can have duration control on skills for balance, or expertise can function like precision does, but only for condi DoT damage.

TY!

Comments

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Smoosh.2718 said:
    How to fix the condition system to make it healthier for the game?

    Remove it.

    Conditiondamage is an un-fun mechanic in the game.

    Sure, let me get my full toughness/damage reduction build.

  • That's a lot of changing that won't fix the core issue of condi builds, namely that they time and again allow you to do obscene amounts of damage with very little commitment and can crop up very quickly because of the spamming of hard-to-evade moves.

    Conditions doing damage based on proximity to the opponent , or doing high stacks of condition damage on moves that are easy to evade and less/only conditional stacks (like attacking from the flank or behind) on moves that are -not- easy to evade would be better suited for balance.

    whichever path Anet chooses to take, if the end result is X class can quickly approach you without telegraph, offload a myriad of conditions on you with moves designed to not be avoidable entirely, then get away with doing nothing/letting clones hit you/tending to their heals/stealthing/laying traps to punish chasing them while you burn cleanses to not die immediately, Then condi builds will be continuously scrutinized and called cheap.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [I don't share builds!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Smoosh.2718Smoosh.2718 Member ✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    That sounds pretty short-sighted. What could possibly go wrong?

    A more fun game.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If there was to be a stat, it should be one that provide scaling health regeneration while afflicted with atleast 1 condition.

    Might stacks should counter some of this stat.

    I am all for splitting cleanse sources into damaging and non-damaging if the symbols differ (green instead of red f.ex if non-damaging). Only big cleanse skills, only small cleanse traits. Remove cleansing sigils/runes/food.

  • That is the right track / idea for the most part (except toughness being the stat to mitigate ).

    If this game actually had magic damage then we could have had a stat like magic resistance. Then armor types would actually matter and things could be balanced around that system.

    But instead anet seems to think condi is magic and should scale offensively in dmg through stats without there being a defensive counter mitigation stat to reduce the incoming.

    The condi system is just as flawed as the boon system.

  • TeqkOneStylez.8047TeqkOneStylez.8047 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2020

    accidental double

  • Azreell.1568Azreell.1568 Member ✭✭

    @Smoosh.2718 said:
    How to fix the condition system to make it healthier for the game?

    Remove it.

    Conditiondamage is an un-fun mechanic in the game.

    You do not speak for the entire player base - so please don't try or assume to.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    most meta builds.
    power thief, power reaper, power holo, support tempest and 1 condi build, condi rev.
    community -> NERF ALL CONDI,

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2020

    If I were to make changes, i would:
    1) make all non-damaging conditions (immobilize, cripple, weakness, slow, etc) be unaffected by expertise.
    2) make confusion and torment stack in duration only, not intensity.
    3) remove the damage over time part of Poison. And have it stack only in duration. Keep the reduced healing aspect.
    4) Traps don't begin recharging until triggered.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    most meta builds.
    power thief, power reaper, power holo, support tempest and 1 condi build, condi rev.
    community -> NERF ALL CONDI,

    Condi thief should make a comeback with condi rev nerfs. Base necro is still top tier. Condi mirage and condi weaver aren't top tier but aoe spam a million condis around them. Condi renegade can insta kill 20k HP and aoe spams the node with pulsing CC. Condi ranger is super common at low ratings and just runs around spamming AOE condis everywhere. Burn guardians passively AOE 5k burn ticks around it at all times with 50 blocks and is super common a low ratings.

    Since the majority of players are low rating, they see stuff like burn guard and condi ranger VERY commonly and thus think condis are broken and unfun. These builds fall off with better rotations and more competent teammates but at low ratings AND WvW they are incredibly unfun and demoralizing to fight. So I can understand their frustration.

    Note: Besides condi thief I don't think any of the above builds are overpowered. I simply think the reward:effort ratio for condi builds are so heavily skewed that for low rating players condi builds are the most effective way for them to deal damage and beat equally lesser skilled players.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I also think it could use a overhaul.. but i've no decent ideas on how.

    I would like to see more of Gw1 conditions etc come into Gw2 though.
    Like not being able to bleed Stone elementals or Asura Golems etc.
    There are some cases in GW2 where this does exist like Dredge immune to blind and Fire elementals immune to burning but i'd like to see that expanded on.

    Would also like to see damage types and elements play more role in this as well like they did in Gw1.
    Fire dealing more damage to ice.. and crushing weapons like Mace and Hammer being more effective against enemies with hard skin, scales or armour.

    Balancing this in PvE would be a ton of work though.. and so much more for competitive so it'll never happen.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    most meta builds.
    power thief, power reaper, power holo, support tempest and 1 condi build, condi rev.
    community -> NERF ALL CONDI,

    Condi thief should make a comeback with condi rev nerfs. Base necro is still top tier. Condi mirage and condi weaver aren't top tier but aoe spam a million condis around them. Condi renegade can insta kill 20k HP and aoe spams the node with pulsing CC. Condi ranger is super common at low ratings and just runs around spamming AOE condis everywhere. Burn guardians passively AOE 5k burn ticks around it at all times with 50 blocks and is super common a low ratings.

    Since the majority of players are low rating, they see stuff like burn guard and condi ranger VERY commonly and thus think condis are broken and unfun. These builds fall off with better rotations and more competent teammates but at low ratings AND WvW they are incredibly unfun and demoralizing to fight. So I can understand their frustration.

    Note: Besides condi thief I don't think any of the above builds are overpowered. I simply think the reward:effort ratio for condi builds are so heavily skewed that for low rating players condi builds are the most effective way for them to deal damage and beat equally lesser skilled players.

    wow, show me the cmirage that aoe spams milions of condis around them :D
    or renegade that instakills 20k.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2020

    Renegade almost insta killed my 29k HP scourge in the shortbow knockdown, it's like shiro/kalla or malyx/jalla or something.

    Condi mirage AOE's a million condis around it everytime it bursts someone.

    Neither of these builds are overpowered, I'm simply speaking in terms of a lower tier player and can see their frustrations.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To me, conditions felt best in the beginning, when it was just a supplementary source of damage.

    But with the current conditions system, cutting the damage at least in half and increasing the duration would be the best move.
    Also, remove the healing reduction from poison.

  • Caine.8204Caine.8204 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    To me, conditions felt best in the beginning, when it was just a supplementary source of damage.

    But with the current conditions system, cutting the damage at least in half and increasing the duration would be the best move.
    Also, remove the healing reduction from poison.

    conditions were never a supplementary source of damage. condition builds have existed since the start.

    increasing the duration would just make conditions stack higher than ever before, and make them deal higher dps towards the end of fight (where they deal most of their damage anyway)

    removing the healing reduction from poison would just make it into bleed.

    any other blatantly incorrect or misguided suggestions?

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caine.8204 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    To me, conditions felt best in the beginning, when it was just a supplementary source of damage.

    But with the current conditions system, cutting the damage at least in half and increasing the duration would be the best move.
    Also, remove the healing reduction from poison.

    conditions were never a supplementary source of damage. condition builds have existed since the start.

    If you look at the original design of the game during betas and at release, there's a strong argument for condition damage being a secondary damage stat like precision or ferocity. Many weapons and abilities added damaging conditions, but not enough to have condition damage alone be a viable damage source. Aside from bomb engi - which didn't kill all that quickly - there were no viable pure condition damage builds. And there were many weapon kits which did have conditions attached to them, but not enough to be viable as the only source of damage.
    Once the game had been out for several months, ANet started pushing condition damage only builds to be viable. The addition of Dhuumfire to necromancer was a key turning point. Switching to a model where condition damage alone was sufficient to be competitive with power created another problem where power needs precision and ferocity and is affected by toughness. Meanwhile, condition damage only needs the duration increase - and mostly just for PvE - to be viable after power creep.

    increasing the duration would just make conditions stack higher than ever before, and make them deal higher dps towards the end of fight (where they deal most of their damage anyway)

    Doubling duration but halving damage per tick means the same damage per application, but the initial damage isn't as high. A change like this would allow periodic health recovery (regeneration, leech, etc) to better counter-act conditions. Additionally, cleansing immediately would no longer be the difference between life and death. It would allow more judicious use of cleanse and limit condi burst with CC from shutting down builds without instant cast condition removal.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Condi mirage AOE's a million condis around it everytime it bursts someone.

    lol wut
    All the axe attacks need to hit to apply condi, pistol 4 applies condi if specc'd for it and applies the bleed to the target it hits, same with pistol 5, torch 4 and 5 and the shatters have a 240 radius which is less than double the melee range (130), aka barely anything. If you're being condi'd by the mirage its because the mirage is on top of you. And if you're getting "a million condis" from the mirage it's because you're the one targeted by it.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caine.8204 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    To me, conditions felt best in the beginning, when it was just a supplementary source of damage.

    But with the current conditions system, cutting the damage at least in half and increasing the duration would be the best move.
    Also, remove the healing reduction from poison.

    conditions were never a supplementary source of damage. condition builds have existed since the start.

    increasing the duration would just make conditions stack higher than ever before, and make them deal higher dps towards the end of fight (where they deal most of their damage anyway)

    removing the healing reduction from poison would just make it into bleed.

    any other blatantly incorrect or misguided suggestions?

    They were probably designed as supplementary damage source since they start at 0 stats, and malice was probably intended to be like ferocity, so instead of crit damage you get dot damage from you skills, but they changed their mind at some point and condition damage is made to be like power but it only needs 2 stats to work instead of 3.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Caine.8204 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    To me, conditions felt best in the beginning, when it was just a supplementary source of damage.

    But with the current conditions system, cutting the damage at least in half and increasing the duration would be the best move.
    Also, remove the healing reduction from poison.

    conditions were never a supplementary source of damage. condition builds have existed since the start.

    increasing the duration would just make conditions stack higher than ever before, and make them deal higher dps towards the end of fight (where they deal most of their damage anyway)

    removing the healing reduction from poison would just make it into bleed.

    any other blatantly incorrect or misguided suggestions?

    They were probably designed as supplementary damage source since they start at 0 stats.

    I would disagree with this one. I'd say they start at 0 stats because of the calculation they use. If power damage had a similar type of calculation both power and toughness would likely also start at 0.

    Also if it was never intended as a true damage source then we wouldn't have seen the dedicated condi weapons, they would have been hybrid at best.

    People tend to like condi at the beginning on the game because it was largely irrelevant.

  • ther was actualy proposition to make power rune that defense bit more against condi :
    :https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1297833#Comment_1297833

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @Exedore.6320 said:
    Doubling duration but halving damage per tick means the same damage per application, but the initial damage isn't as high. A change like this would allow periodic health recovery (regeneration, leech, etc) to better counter-act conditions. Additionally, cleansing immediately would no longer be the difference between life and death. It would allow more judicious use of cleanse and limit condi burst with CC from shutting down builds without instant cast condition removal.

    They already did exactly this for the engineer (technically even more as condi traits was heavily nerfed in addition to duration doubling and stack halving) yet people still flail their arms and yell all conditions bad to the skies, rather than actually saying very specific builds on specific classes are bad and its been the exact same specific classes on the exact same specific builds for years.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Caine.8204 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    To me, conditions felt best in the beginning, when it was just a supplementary source of damage.

    But with the current conditions system, cutting the damage at least in half and increasing the duration would be the best move.
    Also, remove the healing reduction from poison.

    conditions were never a supplementary source of damage. condition builds have existed since the start.

    increasing the duration would just make conditions stack higher than ever before, and make them deal higher dps towards the end of fight (where they deal most of their damage anyway)

    removing the healing reduction from poison would just make it into bleed.

    any other blatantly incorrect or misguided suggestions?

    They were probably designed as supplementary damage source since they start at 0 stats, and malice was probably intended to be like ferocity, so instead of crit damage you get dot damage from you skills, but they changed their mind at some point and condition damage is made to be like power but it only needs 2 stats to work instead of 3.

    Condition damage was NOT designed as a “supplementary damage source”.

    AMA quotes to start...

    “We’re looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we’ll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn’t expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch”

    “Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”

    Power Damage = Direct Damage in other games.

    Condition Damage = Damage Over Time in other games.

    Those 2 above damage types have been present in thousands of games, but Anet went a alternate route and isn’t fixing the problem. When the Devs rework Condition Damage, as we know it, to the tried and true DoT style, then we will have a better Condition System in competitive play. Also separating Condition Damage and CC Status Effects into 2 categories fixes issues too.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Caine.8204 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    To me, conditions felt best in the beginning, when it was just a supplementary source of damage.

    But with the current conditions system, cutting the damage at least in half and increasing the duration would be the best move.
    Also, remove the healing reduction from poison.

    conditions were never a supplementary source of damage. condition builds have existed since the start.

    increasing the duration would just make conditions stack higher than ever before, and make them deal higher dps towards the end of fight (where they deal most of their damage anyway)

    removing the healing reduction from poison would just make it into bleed.

    any other blatantly incorrect or misguided suggestions?

    They were probably designed as supplementary damage source since they start at 0 stats, and malice was probably intended to be like ferocity, so instead of crit damage you get dot damage from you skills, but they changed their mind at some point and condition damage is made to be like power but it only needs 2 stats to work instead of 3.

    Condition damage was NOT designed as a “supplementary damage source”.

    AMA quotes to start...

    “We’re looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we’ll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn’t expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch”

    “Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”

    Arenanet is pretty inconsistent on what it says and what it does, old statements don't count for much. How was it "Arenanet consistent inconsistent".

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Caine.8204 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    To me, conditions felt best in the beginning, when it was just a supplementary source of damage.

    But with the current conditions system, cutting the damage at least in half and increasing the duration would be the best move.
    Also, remove the healing reduction from poison.

    conditions were never a supplementary source of damage. condition builds have existed since the start.

    increasing the duration would just make conditions stack higher than ever before, and make them deal higher dps towards the end of fight (where they deal most of their damage anyway)

    removing the healing reduction from poison would just make it into bleed.

    any other blatantly incorrect or misguided suggestions?

    They were probably designed as supplementary damage source since they start at 0 stats, and malice was probably intended to be like ferocity, so instead of crit damage you get dot damage from you skills, but they changed their mind at some point and condition damage is made to be like power but it only needs 2 stats to work instead of 3.

    Condition damage was NOT designed as a “supplementary damage source”.

    AMA quotes to start...

    “We’re looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we’ll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn’t expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch”

    “Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”

    Arenanet is pretty inconsistent on what it says and what it does, old statements don't count for much. How was it "Arenanet consistent inconsistent".

    I think you’ve just misunderstood. And that’s not an Anet problem.

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    1- A stat, that players can build for with gear, that mitigates (not removes) condi damage... Toughness would be my personal preference.

    I am with this BUT power dmg is already reduced by Toughness, so if it also reduces condi it would be too overpowered stats. 2 different dmg type = 2 different dmg mitigation types. This way you can choose to have both and cut from your damage in order to be tankier or spec into specific dmg mitigation type. It is only fair :)

    Wishlist:
    Improve GW2 performance. Add genuine DX12 support.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @bOTEB.1573 said:
    It is only fair

    How about Condition damage depending on three stats as well?
    or removing Ferocity and have Precision increase both critical hit chance and damage?
    After all, "it is only fair" if both damage types depend on the same amount of stats.

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:
    It is only fair

    How about Condition damage depending on three stats as well?
    or removing Ferocity and have Precision increase both critical hit chance and damage?
    After all, "it is only fair" if both damage types depend on the same amount of stats.

    Ok but then we have to remove the condi duration reduction and condi cleanse which is a direct counter to condi damage.

    Wishlist:
    Improve GW2 performance. Add genuine DX12 support.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:
    It is only fair

    How about Condition damage depending on three stats as well?
    or removing Ferocity and have Precision increase both critical hit chance and damage?
    After all, "it is only fair" if both damage types depend on the same amount of stats.

    Ok but then we have to remove the condi duration reduction and condi cleanse which is a direct counter to condi damage.

    And then you'd remove toughness, evades, invulnerability and all the other counters for power damage?

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:
    It is only fair

    How about Condition damage depending on three stats as well?
    or removing Ferocity and have Precision increase both critical hit chance and damage?
    After all, "it is only fair" if both damage types depend on the same amount of stats.

    Sure. Just apply cleansing to power damage and you have a deal. Fair is fair.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Condis will "Never" be healthy for the game mode, the only solution for real balance is to just remove damaging condis and balance the entirety of PvP fairly around power.

    But ofc we don't do that because we want fun gameplay (well at least I think we do? Some how we're still playing conquest.) and to quote Masahiro Sakurai: "Unfair is fun."

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    The meta is power, come back when we have a condi meta.

    Yepp i think they dont realize that small detail xd . Maybe condi overperforms in low tiers cuz ppl doenst know how to play proplerly idk.

  • Rukia.4802Rukia.4802 Member ✭✭✭

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Condition

    That's how you balance conditions :+1::)

    2/3 accounts forum banned
    Fix hide party/squad nameplate
    Add particle effect slider/ability to turn friendly player effects off

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    The meta is power, come back when we have a condi meta.

    Sweet! The devs want “to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”, so thank you for inadvertently helping!

  • @Swagger.1459 said:

    8- Add in an “immunity timer” to prevent the chaining of soft and hard CC effects from occurring. Timer starts after being hit with either a soft or hard CC.

    This is the most sane thing you said. I've been praying for this since launch and I still have NO idea why it doesn't exist.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Condi mirage AOE's a million condis around it everytime it bursts someone.

    lol wut
    All the axe attacks need to hit to apply condi, pistol 4 applies condi if specc'd for it and applies the bleed to the target it hits, same with pistol 5, torch 4 and 5 and the shatters have a 240 radius which is less than double the melee range (130), aka barely anything. If you're being condi'd by the mirage its because the mirage is on top of you. And if you're getting "a million condis" from the mirage it's because you're the one targeted by it.

    Yes, I was speaking for the lesser skilled players that will sit next to you and tank all your condis like that.That's why I said it's not overpowered, but lesser skilled players could find it frustrating.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    If I were to make changes, i would:
    1) make all non-damaging conditions (immobilize, cripple, weakness, slow, etc) be unaffected by expertise.
    2) make confusion and torment stack in duration only, not intensity.
    3) remove the damage over time part of Poison. And have it stack only in duration. Keep the reduced healing aspect.
    4) Traps don't begin recharging until triggered.

    That would make bleeds and fire the only damaging condi. Basically, any condi build not named FB is dead.

    I think making toughness impact condi damage would be the way to go. I also think that resistance should operate like protection but for condi damage, with more access. Rev and warrior may require some skills/traits rework to compensate. Other than that, I think the balance between condi and condi removal is okay.

    The real issue now is not that condi damage is too strong, but That power damage too weak. Way too weak. Almost all power skills need their damage increased between 25% to 35%.

    As for traps, I agree that traps need some limitation. But trigger is not the way to go. This could lock the skill if you place the trap incorrectly, or enemy avoid it, for the entire game. Better solution is to limit the trap duration.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    If I were to make changes, i would:
    1) make all non-damaging conditions (immobilize, cripple, weakness, slow, etc) be unaffected by expertise.
    2) make confusion and torment stack in duration only, not intensity.
    3) remove the damage over time part of Poison. And have it stack only in duration. Keep the reduced healing aspect.
    4) Traps don't begin recharging until triggered.

    That would make bleeds and fire the only damaging condi. Basically, any condi build not named FB is dead.

    I think making toughness impact condi damage would be the way to go. I also think that resistance should operate like protection but for condi damage, with more access. Rev and warrior may require some skills/traits rework to compensate. Other than that, I think the balance between condi and condi removal is okay.

    The real issue now is not that condi damage is too strong, but That power damage too weak. Way too weak. Almost all power skills need their damage increased between 25% to 35%.

    As for traps, I agree that traps need some limitation. But trigger is not the way to go. This could lock the skill if you place the trap incorrectly, or enemy avoid it, for the entire game. Better solution is to limit the trap duration.

    Are we playing the same game? I don't think we are. Your ideas are off in space, man.

  • Aihao.5824Aihao.5824 Member ✭✭✭

    How, being a thief i can spike necro that has 29k hp + srhroud, dealing 3.5k dmg with a backstab? Just bring the pre feb patch game state

  • Jekkt.6045Jekkt.6045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2020

    conditions stopped being an attrition style gameplay when they made them stackable. it was a big problem when you couldn't stack conditions except bleeding from different players because they just overwrote them. you had to juggle condition access around in a team which felt terrible. they failed at solving this problem though. instead of making conditions stack per player, they made them stack per condition. to elaborate: two classes applying burning should apply two burning stacks, one class should be able to apply only one burning stack. so you have one 10s burn that deals 7k damage instead of 5-10 that deal 7k in 2 seconds.

    condition damage numbers were a bit different too. i'm sure my numbers aren't accurate but burning dealt around 700, bleeding 250, poison 350. so numbers were rarely ever over 2k/s and you had to stack all available conditions to get that high.

    this would probably ruin condi specs in pve, so if possible, apply this only in pvp/wvw.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    If I were to make changes, i would:
    1) make all non-damaging conditions (immobilize, cripple, weakness, slow, etc) be unaffected by expertise.
    2) make confusion and torment stack in duration only, not intensity.
    3) remove the damage over time part of Poison. And have it stack only in duration. Keep the reduced healing aspect.
    4) Traps don't begin recharging until triggered.

    That would make bleeds and fire the only damaging condi. Basically, any condi build not named FB is dead.

    I think making toughness impact condi damage would be the way to go. I also think that resistance should operate like protection but for condi damage, with more access. Rev and warrior may require some skills/traits rework to compensate. Other than that, I think the balance between condi and condi removal is okay.

    The real issue now is not that condi damage is too strong, but That power damage too weak. Way too weak. Almost all power skills need their damage increased between 25% to 35%.

    As for traps, I agree that traps need some limitation. But trigger is not the way to go. This could lock the skill if you place the trap incorrectly, or enemy avoid it, for the entire game. Better solution is to limit the trap duration.

    Are we playing the same game? I don't think we are. Your ideas are off in space, man.

    Okay

    @Aihao.5824 said:
    How, being a thief i can spike necro that has 29k hp + srhroud, dealing 3.5k dmg with a backstab? Just bring the pre feb patch game state

    This is what ~60% of players are saying @AliamRationem.5172. Trying to say it is an isolated position is either ignorant or misleading. You either buff power damage and/or nerf sustainability. As of this point, if we nerf Condi, it will be more of bunker slug fest than it already is.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jekkt.6045 said:
    conditions stopped being an attrition style gameplay when they made them stackable. it was a big problem when you couldn't stack conditions except bleeding from different players because they just overwrote them. you had to juggle condition access around in a team which felt terrible. they failed at solving this problem though. instead of making conditions stack per player, they made them stack per condition. to elaborate: two classes applying burning should apply two burning stacks, one class should be able to apply only one burning stack. so you have one 10s burn that deals 7k damage instead of 5-10 that deal 7k in 2 seconds.

    condition damage numbers were a bit different too. i'm sure my numbers aren't accurate but burning dealt around 700, bleeding 250, poison 350. so numbers were rarely ever over 2k/s and you had to stack all available conditions to get that high.

    this would probably ruin condi specs in pve, so if possible, apply this only in pvp/wvw.

    You cannot make such radical splits for gamemodes. Leveling up in PvE, getting used to mechanics and your own build should matter once you enter PvP. Things are way too different already.

  • Jekkt.6045Jekkt.6045 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:
    conditions stopped being an attrition style gameplay when they made them stackable. it was a big problem when you couldn't stack conditions except bleeding from different players because they just overwrote them. you had to juggle condition access around in a team which felt terrible. they failed at solving this problem though. instead of making conditions stack per player, they made them stack per condition. to elaborate: two classes applying burning should apply two burning stacks, one class should be able to apply only one burning stack. so you have one 10s burn that deals 7k damage instead of 5-10 that deal 7k in 2 seconds.

    condition damage numbers were a bit different too. i'm sure my numbers aren't accurate but burning dealt around 700, bleeding 250, poison 350. so numbers were rarely ever over 2k/s and you had to stack all available conditions to get that high.

    this would probably ruin condi specs in pve, so if possible, apply this only in pvp/wvw.

    You cannot make such radical splits for gamemodes. Leveling up in PvE, getting used to mechanics and your own build should matter once you enter PvP. Things are way too different already.

    of course you can. there used to be a time where you could pick 6 individual runes, a gem for your amulet and single traits. nobody complained about it and it wasn't too complicated either. handholding is bad and people should stop thinking players are fundamentally stupid. if you want to get good at something you will if you put in work. if you don't want to, you don't care about complexity anyway.

    the only other way to "fix" conditions is by increasing durations and reducing stacks. that will lead to worse ramp though. at the beginning of a fight your damage will be very low and then get higher and higher. this will resolve the problem with burst conditions but will introduce 2 new problems. once you stacked all your conditions the damage will be very high and on the other hand getting your conditions cleansed will feel extremely terrible because you have to start over again.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    If I were to make changes, i would:
    1) make all non-damaging conditions (immobilize, cripple, weakness, slow, etc) be unaffected by expertise.
    2) make confusion and torment stack in duration only, not intensity.
    3) remove the damage over time part of Poison. And have it stack only in duration. Keep the reduced healing aspect.
    4) Traps don't begin recharging until triggered.

    That would make bleeds and fire the only damaging condi. Basically, any condi build not named FB is dead.

    I think making toughness impact condi damage would be the way to go. I also think that resistance should operate like protection but for condi damage, with more access. Rev and warrior may require some skills/traits rework to compensate. Other than that, I think the balance between condi and condi removal is okay.

    The real issue now is not that condi damage is too strong, but That power damage too weak. Way too weak. Almost all power skills need their damage increased between 25% to 35%.

    As for traps, I agree that traps need some limitation. But trigger is not the way to go. This could lock the skill if you place the trap incorrectly, or enemy avoid it, for the entire game. Better solution is to limit the trap duration.

    Are we playing the same game? I don't think we are. Your ideas are off in space, man.

    Okay

    @Aihao.5824 said:
    How, being a thief i can spike necro that has 29k hp + srhroud, dealing 3.5k dmg with a backstab? Just bring the pre feb patch game state

    This is what ~60% of players are saying @AliamRationem.5172. Trying to say it is an isolated position is either ignorant or misleading. You either buff power damage and/or nerf sustainability. As of this point, if we nerf Condi, it will be more of bunker slug fest than it already is.

    It sounds so much more reasonable when you don't say things like: "Almost all power skills need their damage increased between 25% to 35%."

    Buff power? Yeah, sure. Where it makes sense. I enjoyed the pre 2/25 meta. You won't get any complaints from me on that! Nerf sustain on builds like necro that still overperform in that area? Yeah, sign me up. But then you go saying things like: "I think making toughness impact condi damage would be the way to go." and "Other than that, I think the balance between condi and condi removal is okay."

    ...aaaand we're off in space again. I think we might agree on some of the problem areas, but I strongly disagree with some of your solutions.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:
    conditions stopped being an attrition style gameplay when they made them stackable. it was a big problem when you couldn't stack conditions except bleeding from different players because they just overwrote them. you had to juggle condition access around in a team which felt terrible. they failed at solving this problem though. instead of making conditions stack per player, they made them stack per condition. to elaborate: two classes applying burning should apply two burning stacks, one class should be able to apply only one burning stack. so you have one 10s burn that deals 7k damage instead of 5-10 that deal 7k in 2 seconds.

    condition damage numbers were a bit different too. i'm sure my numbers aren't accurate but burning dealt around 700, bleeding 250, poison 350. so numbers were rarely ever over 2k/s and you had to stack all available conditions to get that high.

    this would probably ruin condi specs in pve, so if possible, apply this only in pvp/wvw.

    You cannot make such radical splits for gamemodes. Leveling up in PvE, getting used to mechanics and your own build should matter once you enter PvP. Things are way too different already.

    of course you can. there used to be a time where you could pick 6 individual runes, a gem for your amulet and single traits. nobody complained about it and it wasn't too complicated either. handholding is bad and people should stop thinking players are fundamentally stupid. if you want to get good at something you will if you put in work. if you don't want to, you don't care about complexity anyway.

    the only other way to "fix" conditions is by increasing durations and reducing stacks. that will lead to worse ramp though. at the beginning of a fight your damage will be very low and then get higher and higher. this will resolve the problem with burst conditions but will introduce 2 new problems. once you stacked all your conditions the damage will be very high and on the other hand getting your conditions cleansed will feel extremely terrible because you have to start over again.

    Well of course you can, you just shouldn't. Because when PvP and PvE are basicly different games, less players are playing both. Your stats are different, your cooldowns are different, your skill effects/durations are different, and what you learned about other classes (those you end up fighting against) doesn't really apply either. And this frustrates many players, makes them go back to their original gamemode.

    Also I'm in favor of increasing condition duration and reducing stacks ON SOME BUILDS. Imagine burnguard becoming a pressure oriented build, while mirage could stay roughly the same as it is now, with the ability to apply condi bursts. As a water weaver, you could keep cleansing the burning and potentially beat the guardian, while the same spammy gameplay gets you killed against a condi mirage(cover condis on confusion). This could result in a whole other kind of build diversity, where you don't just flat out counter/get countred by condibuilds, the type of cleansing you have also matters.

    However this can be achived without capping condition stacks on a target, which I am against.