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The story ruins Jormag rising(spoilers)

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  • Traveller.7496Traveller.7496 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Sometime ago the devs said they want to add Season 1 type events to this saga, which if you recall in season had the community voting for who will be the next captain on the LA council.

    You can never convince me that ANet didn't 100% rig that election. The story where Evon was captain just didn't fit their agenda.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    There aren't "male and female" roles in Charr culture.

    There also wasn't "family" in Charr culture, until Arenanet introduced it in Season 5.

    That aside, male and female roles were very distinct, back when the Flame Legion lead all Charr.
    Males did all the fighting, females kept home clean and cooked.
    There, the roles were kept very strictly, until Season 5 introduced the reformed Flame Legion.

  • @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    There aren't "male and female" roles in Charr culture.

    There also wasn't "family" in Charr culture, until Arenanet introduced it in Season 5.

    That aside, male and female roles were very distinct, back when the Flame Legion lead all Charr.
    Males did all the fighting, females kept home clean and cooked.
    There, the roles were kept very strictly, until Season 5 introduced the reformed Flame Legion.

    Aside from the fact that bringing up flame legion tradition is completely irrelevant,

    What are you talking about? What family roles did anet introduce in season5?
    I haven't been keeping up with everything 100% so I'm open if I missed something.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @White Kitsunee.4620 said:
    Aside from the fact that bringing up flame legion tradition is completely irrelevant,

    Except that Flame Legion culture was THE Charr culture until the three other legion split away.

    What are you talking about? What family roles did anet introduce in season5?
    I haven't been keeping up with everything 100% so I'm open if I missed something.

    Before, Charr (in the Legions) simply left their cubs at the fahrar and didn't form family bonds.
    With the prologue, Arenanet established the fact that some Charr actually develop enough feelings that they disguise themselves to visit the fahrar.

    Within the entire season 5, we also see Rytlock (who previously was established as a mostly logical, hardened soldier) deteriorating from that logical soldier into a "must save stupid son" father, just to artificially create fiction to forcefully scrape some kind of subplot together.
    And then he keeps bickering with Crecia like an old couple, even though they should have a professional attitude towards each other, as previous Charr lore implied.

    In the vigil questline, Almorra had no regret in letting Ajax die, but in her dialogue with Bangar she suddenly grew emotional towards Ajax's transition into the renegade leader.

    That's a whole lot of bonds that make no sense with how Charr society was presented before season 5.

  • @Fueki.4753 said:
    Except that Flame Legion culture was THE Charr culture until the three other legion split away.

    Except they haven't... for like 120 years I cannon or so. The Charr have specifically moved away from the Flame Legion lifestyle and have tried to snuff out every last bit of its existence until recently.

    Before, Charr (in the Legions) simply left their cubs at the fahrar and didn't form family bonds.
    With the prologue, Arenanet established the fact that some Charr actually develop enough feelings that they disguise themselves to visit the fahrar.

    Within the entire season 5, we also see Rytlock (who previously was established as a mostly logical, hardened soldier) deteriorating from that logical soldier into a "must save stupid son" father, just to artificially create fiction to forcefully scrape some kind of subplot together.
    And then he keeps bickering with Crecia like an old couple, even though they should have a professional attitude towards each other, as previous Charr lore implied.

    >

    Okay so I have a couple of problems with this logic.

    First off, a couple of people watching their kids from afar doesn't count as a familiar roles within charr society.
    Second, watching over your kid while he is in the frahrar isn't new, there's several voiced lines in the vanilla Black citadel that expressed this.
    If your a leatherworker in BC you'll know what I'm talking about.
    Third off, Rytlock caring an odd amount about his son was introduced in the side stories during season 4, additionally Rytlock isn't the hardened professional type. Over the years he has slowly turned closer and closer to his original book incarnation.

    All that being said I have to agree with your main point that Rytlock gives way too much of a kitten about his son and its really messing with his character.
    And yea this is probably just a plot device for rytlock.
    But that doesn't represent a shift in charr society, Rytloxk has always been an outlier in charr culture. The devs have somewhat foolishly decided to lean into that and here we are.

  • coso.9173coso.9173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Rytlock "deteriorating" into caring for his son?

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @White Kitsunee.4620 said:
    But that doesn't represent a shift in charr society, Rytloxk has always been an outlier in charr culture. The devs have somewhat foolishly decided to lean into that and here we are.

    Why is it foolish to lean into something that Rytlock naturally is? IF anything, it would be foolish to NOT lean into it because that would ignore the whole point of Rytlock's character, which is that he isn't like other Charr because he spent so much time with non-charr.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tazer.2157 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @borgs.6103 said:
    The whole thing is cringe, but the worst of it all was what they did to Smodur. He's the only one behaving like Charr and people call him an kitten.
    Remember, people - Charr have a militaristic culture based on Roman and Mongol societies. Heck, they treat Gladium as 2nd-class citizens, ditch their elderly and have little to no respect for the injured who can't serve. They're all a-holes from an outsider's point of view.

    And I thought it couldn't get anymore lore-breaking than that Lazarus is Balthazar season where Charr Pact Commanders have to take the Shining Blade oath.
    What's next? Sylvari reproducing? Asura having a pantheon of gods?

    when youre trying to set up an alliance with different races/cultures it would be smart to at least PRETEND to be a nice guy.
    this is either 100% kitten or 100% moron, certainly not a leader to follow

    Smodur was a Charr who was progressive. He Even brokered a peace treaty with the humans. Ppl are upset about Smodur because his character was retconned into someone unrecognizable. He was made into a villain for absolutely no reason. And on top of that after he dies, the story just moves in like nothing happened.

    so, hes not a bad character, but only a poorly written one. okay. one charr less to worry about, works for me

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    Imagine thinking that a guy who ran what was essentially a racial ghetto in the Gladiums Canton and executed 'traitors' and deserters in gladiatorial combat at the Bane wasn't always an kitten.

    Imagine.

  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭

    @Legion.4198 said:
    I wonder if Aurene uses her new toy as a cell phone to call Jormag and tell her about the latest canthan cartoons she has watched on the scrying pool. Maybe she shares her fanart and fanfics with her too.

    I called him a walkie-talkie. I kind of regret that designation when trying to get him to talk.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited 4:12PM

    @Sir Alric.5078 said:
    Bangar is a puppet on display, Ryland is now a Champion of Jormag, Smodur is dead, Efram seems like a good guy but he leads the Flame legion which was the enemy until not too long ago, so i don't think they will choose him. Plus he's now the only dude among an all female leadership. I get the feeling that they are going to pick Crecia for the job, but we shall see.

    You really think there will be another Khan-Ur? I'm a bit skeptical about that, because I don't feel like the Charr will want the power centered on one person. It might feel like a step backward.

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Imagine thinking that a guy who ran what was essentially a racial ghetto in the Gladiums Canton and executed 'traitors' and deserters in gladiatorial combat at the Bane wasn't always an kitten.

    Imagine.

    The Charr are not humans. Their values and views are very much different from what we accept. If you want to humanize every race, just delete races and have us all play humans. With different races, you can tell incredible stories, you can build the world with conflict, agreements etc. You can tell stories from a different perspective. Humanizing races is so unimaginative and boring and bad for the diversity of the game. If Charr= humans, why even pick between the two? But it seems these days people are much more concerned about social issues in the real world and they want in-game lore to reflect real issues. Games are supposed to be fantasy worlds. They aren’t supposed to reflect real life and real world issues. With the whole thing about “changing the Charr”, the writers are mistaking tyria for planet earth when they should not. Tyria is a place where the writers can make the rules up, sadly they are now making Tyria planet earth B where everyone should work towards world peace and live happily ever after.

    Imagine telling a story about a militaristic society dealing with a civil war. That would just be so much more interesting than “ we need to stop the fighting and save our race”. I wonder how far they would even go to win a war and the consequences to that. Those are stories that I enjoy. I don’t want normal everyday stories.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tazer.2157 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Imagine thinking that a guy who ran what was essentially a racial ghetto in the Gladiums Canton and executed 'traitors' and deserters in gladiatorial combat at the Bane wasn't always an kitten.

    Imagine.

    The Charr are not humans. Their values and views are very much different from what we accept. If you want to humanize every race, just delete races and have us all play humans. With different races, you can tell incredible stories, you can build the world with conflict, agreements etc. You can tell stories from a different perspective. Humanizing races is so unimaginative and boring and bad for the diversity of the game. If Charr= humans, why even pick between the two? But it seems these days people are much more concerned about social issues in the real world and they want in-game lore to reflect real issues. Games are supposed to be fantasy worlds. They aren’t supposed to reflect real life and real world issues. With the whole thing about “changing the Charr”, the writers are mistaking tyria for planet earth when they should not. Tyria is a place where the writers can make the rules up, sadly they are now making Tyria planet earth B where everyone should work towards world peace and live happily ever after.

    Imagine telling a story about a militaristic society dealing with a civil war. That would just be so much more interesting than “ we need to stop the fighting and save our race”. I wonder how far they would even go to win a war and the consequences to that. Those are stories that I enjoy. I don’t want normal everyday stories.

    What you're asking for is a normal everyday story. The narrative of doing a civil war that doesn't examine social issues and places the blame for it's failings on flawed individuals, rather then flawed systems, has been written and rewritten since the dawn of time. It's only recently that we've come to accept that the cultures we are part of are, in fact, not perfect.

    As for the Charr not being humans? about as early as core game there were stories about how Legion society harmed it's most disadvantaged and peoples dissatisfaction with the Fahrar system, it's just until right now people didn't pay attention to the fact Legion society is sociological, not some hardcoded biology. It would be kind of crazy if they did, it would mean that the Charr as a species can live for nothing but war and in a hypothetical future where the fighting actually did stop they would resort to killing everyone around them to sate their base instincts.

    Which as far as notions go, is kinda kitten.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    What you're asking for is a normal everyday story. The narrative of doing a civil war that doesn't examine social issues and places the blame for it's failings on flawed individuals, rather then flawed systems, has been written and rewritten since the dawn of time. It's only recently that we've come to accept that the cultures we are part of are, in fact, not perfect.

    As for the Charr not being humans? about as early as core game there were stories about how Legion society harmed it's most disadvantaged and peoples dissatisfaction with the Fahrar system, it's just until right now people didn't pay attention to the fact Legion society is sociological, not some hardcoded biology. It would be kind of crazy if they did, it would mean that the Charr as a species can live for nothing but war and in a hypothetical future where the fighting actually did stop they would resort to killing everyone around them to sate their base instincts.

    Which as far as notions go, is kinda kitten.

    Pretty much all this.

    I don't know where anyone got the idea that the Charr act the way they do because of biology, but the game has never support that. The Charr's warlike nature has always been sociological, and the game has gone to some efforts, even as far back as vanilla, to point out that the whole system kinda sucks big time, and even many Charr know it.