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The story ruins Jormag rising(spoilers)

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2020

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Is this narrative served properly with the saga or would it have been better as a stand-alone without Jormag and the rest?

    My issue is that they’ve tossed all of this into the saga and in doing so haven’t really been able to create a compelling story for me personally. It’s felt like a way to show Jormag into the story and I’m not really sure why other than general proximity. And unless Jormag initiates Bangar’s thoughts to pursue having an elder dragon at their disposal it feels out of left field.

    Jormag DID influence Bangar's thoughts about wanting an Elder Dragon. We have known this since the Icebrood Saga trailer, where it was confirmed that Jormag's dialog in the trailer was aimed at Bangar, and in Bound by Blood we can see a Jormag corrupted artifact(focus), and scepter, in Bangar's office, and can find Boneskinner tracks outside the window to his office. Jormag has been taking advantage of Bangar's fear for awhile now.

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Second, we do not see any infighting between the four legions. They always seem to work together and function as a part of Charr society.

    Except this is complete nonsense. There has been infighting among the different tribes of Charr since before the Khan-Ur. Hell, the Khan-Ur rose to power by uniting the warring tribes of Charr. And we have seen, all throughout Guild wars 2, those tribes, now Legions, infighting among each other. The hundred+ years of fighting the Flame Legion being the biggest example, but we also see all throughout the core game that Blood, Iron, and Ash, are always trying to sabotage, and one up each other, and that members of each Legion are systemically, and culturally, racist against the other Legions, treating themselves as superior, while the other Legion are inferior.

    There is a difference between going to war and trying to sabotage and one up each other. There is no quest in game where you kill other legion members while being a part of a different legion.

    Flame legion were always outcasts within the Charr.

    Throughout the story we see all the three legions coming together and working together. We see this in the fire heart rise map where the 3 legions together to get rid of flame.

    There is deep, systemic, cultural racism and division among Charr society, due to the Legions constantly pitting themselves against each other.

    Everything is racist in 2020. Please stop with this already. The Charr are not us. Please stop comparing them to us.

    They only have some unity because they hated everyone else more then they hated each other, so loosely allied to fight everyone else. This is also a key factor in why the Olmakhan left in the first place.

    We barely even see this in game. Where is the conflict you speak off? Which map do I have to go to get quests of this conflict?

    None of them ever even refer to the lore in game. The history of the Charr in Tyria define them. There is nothing in their history that mandates any change to their way of life.

    All of these arguments tie directly into the lore of the game. You know, the same lore that has constantly shown the Charr to be a horribly self destructive species, with constant civil wars, infighting, large amounts of people getting abused and treated like trash for being disabled, or Gladium. Entire sections of Charr splitting off and going to remote places just to try to get away from how broken the whole thing is.

    Yeah man, there is no in-lore reason for the charr to change..... except the entirety of Charr lore.

    Again you haven’t given me a single quest in game that support your arguement that the Charr needs to change.

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    @Its Nerfing Time.1495 said:

    @Tazer.2157 said:

    @Sir Alric.5078 said:

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Once again not surprisingly the story is the weakest element in the episode and quite frankly spoils the entire episode. So well done. After you retconned and antagonized Smodur, you’ve killed him off in a similar manner. Also after building up Bangar, this bad kitten of a Charr who has always been ahead of you, who has rallied troops to his side, who convinced Ryland to attack Almorra, you’ve collared him and put him in a cage. Just why? Please just go ahead and kill Bangar off because he clearly doesn’t not belong in this sad excuse for a story. Let him and Smodur be erased from memory and have a peaceful afterlife far away from this dreadful story. To Smodur and Bangar, two bad kitten Charr who have been badly written. May you both Rest In Peace.

    I see nothing wrong with what happened to Bangar. The fool actually thought he could turn the Ice Elder Dragon into his personal pet. As if a being that has been around for at least 20.000 years (if not more) and has contributed to the genocide of countless races would all of a sudden submit itself to an egomaniac cat. Turning him into a mouthpiece after blatantly discarding him for Ryland was Jormag's way to remind everyone about who's boss. Bangar got what he deserved and he can only blame himself for that.

    Except that Bangar has outsmarted the commander at every move. Bangar was the one the legions looked up to. Many Charr followed him through thick and thin. Jormag tells Ryland that he’s got elements of his mom and dad and that is one of the reasons for making him champion. Except that is complete nonsense because Bangar outsmarted both Rytlock and Crecia. At the beginning Bangar even has Crecia wrapped around his finger. So unless Jormag is looking for a weakling, we have a conflict from what was shown in earlier episodes. Ryland was clearly shown to be weaker and compliant to Bangar even sparring with Almorra and having no problems even after Bangar killed her. All now all of a sudden he goes against Bangar? There is good story telling and then there is story telling just for the shock element and this reminds me of the final season of game of thrones. Also to add more pain to injury they put Bangar in the eye of the north and there is also an achievement where you need to visit him for 10 days. No where has anything like this been done. A Charr chained, unable to talk, caged and humiliated for 10 days and on display for all to see. I wouldn’t wish that to my worst enemy. Even Garrosh in world of Warcraft got a better ending than this.

    plot armour isn't outsmarting the commander.

    Bangar was a tool, and has a tools end.

    It’s not my fault they wrote Bangar this way. This shows that the story is bad and they are injecting shock elements just because they think it makes the story better when it does the absolute opposite. It’s like they are taking inspiration from one of the worst seasons of game of thrones.

    What’s next? Bram going to join jormags army? Or how about the commander itself becoming the champion of Jormag? Because in this saga, anything can happen right. Jormag has seemingly infinite power to influence anyone and everything now can be explained by “ Jormag must be behind it”.

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Also after building up Bangar, this bad kitten of a Charr who has always been ahead of you, who has rallied troops to his side, who convinced Ryland to attack Almorra, you’ve collared him and put him in a cage. Just why?

    I really have to ask... what did you expect? Bangar was the clear badguy. He was either going to die, or get taken prisoner to face justice no matter what. This keeps him alive, and a useful part of the narrative going forward, rather then just having him vanish from here on. Its also a fitting irony that the charismatic Charr leader gets his voice stolen from him, to become a mouthpiece for an even greater threat.

    I sometimes get the feeling that people on these forums think anything other then every character, good or bad, going out in some big epic heroic death scene= bad writing, when THAT idea is bad writing in itself.

    Nah fun is he got what he asked for in a way but it wasnt what he expected

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tazer.2157 said:

    Except that Bangar has outsmarted the commander at every move. Bangar was the one the legions looked up to. Many Charr followed him through thick and thin. Jormag tells Ryland that he’s got elements of his mom and dad and that is one of the reasons for making him champion. Except that is complete nonsense because Bangar outsmarted both Rytlock and Crecia. At the beginning Bangar even has Crecia wrapped around his finger. So unless Jormag is looking for a weakling, we have a conflict from what was shown in earlier episodes. Ryland was clearly shown to be weaker and compliant to Bangar even sparring with Almorra and having no problems even after Bangar killed her. All now all of a sudden he goes against Bangar? There is good story telling and then there is story telling just for the shock element and this reminds me of the final season of game of thrones. Also to add more pain to injury they put Bangar in the eye of the north and there is also an achievement where you need to visit him for 10 days. No where has anything like this been done. A Charr chained, unable to talk, caged and humiliated for 10 days and on display for all to see. I wouldn’t wish that to my worst enemy. Even Garrosh in world of Warcraft got a better ending than this.

    This is the part I dont like too. The way Jormag behaves. He was face to face to the Commander and all the leaders of the United Legions. A better opportunity to finish off all the danger from this part he will not have anymore. Why he let the Commander live? Is he hoping to use him later? How? The Commander proved to be very resistant to corruption. Is Jormag hopping that the Commander will turn into a danger so great for Tyria that the tyrians will follow him only to stop the Commander?

    I cannot think that Jormag ignored the Commander only because he considered it a non threat. Three dead ED and a former human God are evidences that the Commander is very efficient when fighting a strong opponent.

    Suddenly the well trained, the true soldier Ryland goes against his superiors. What? Moreover, he is the one questioning Bangar why he want to use the bow against Jormag. That translating into - "I don't want Jormag dead. Why you, Bangar, whant the opposite"?

    Surprise :# Ryland did not follow Bangar because of the military hierarchy and orders. He was there because he was already corrupted by Jormag?

    Anyhow, Bangar deserved a good dead fighting. And not a cage. Where he is not him anymore. Sad. Not something for a charr leader.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tazer.2157 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Second, we do not see any infighting between the four legions. They always seem to work together and function as a part of Charr society.

    Except this is complete nonsense. There has been infighting among the different tribes of Charr since before the Khan-Ur. Hell, the Khan-Ur rose to power by uniting the warring tribes of Charr. And we have seen, all throughout Guild wars 2, those tribes, now Legions, infighting among each other. The hundred+ years of fighting the Flame Legion being the biggest example, but we also see all throughout the core game that Blood, Iron, and Ash, are always trying to sabotage, and one up each other, and that members of each Legion are systemically, and culturally, racist against the other Legions, treating themselves as superior, while the other Legion are inferior.

    There is a difference between going to war and trying to sabotage and one up each other. There is no quest in game where you kill other legion members while being a part of a different legion.

    Flame legion were always outcasts within the Charr.

    Throughout the story we see all the three legions coming together and working together. We see this in the fire heart rise map where the 3 legions together to get rid of flame.

    There is deep, systemic, cultural racism and division among Charr society, due to the Legions constantly pitting themselves against each other.

    Everything is racist in 2020. Please stop with this already. The Charr are not us. Please stop comparing them to us.

    They only have some unity because they hated everyone else more then they hated each other, so loosely allied to fight everyone else. This is also a key factor in why the Olmakhan left in the first place.

    We barely even see this in game. Where is the conflict you speak off? Which map do I have to go to get quests of this conflict?

    None of them ever even refer to the lore in game. The history of the Charr in Tyria define them. There is nothing in their history that mandates any change to their way of life.

    All of these arguments tie directly into the lore of the game. You know, the same lore that has constantly shown the Charr to be a horribly self destructive species, with constant civil wars, infighting, large amounts of people getting abused and treated like trash for being disabled, or Gladium. Entire sections of Charr splitting off and going to remote places just to try to get away from how broken the whole thing is.

    Yeah man, there is no in-lore reason for the charr to change..... except the entirety of Charr lore.

    Again you haven’t given me a single quest in game that support your arguement that the Charr needs to change.

    We have given you loads of quests, quotes, and support from lore sources such as the Ecology of the Charr as to why they have always needed to change in some capacity. You just don't want them to change because the Charr facing consequences for their actions disrupts the power fantasy of them being unstoppable badasses. But that was never true, and I predicted much of this would happen two years ago, becoming certain of it with the introduction of the Olmakhan and Bug in the System. Your only proof to the contrary is, what? they own a lot of land? Yeah sorry to break it to you, that's mainly because the other races have been hit harder by the Elder Dragons and their own natural disasters, the world became a much different place when the Crystal Dragon recently awoke and finally exacerbated their own internal problems to the point they signed the Ebonhawke treaty and gave up any land south of Twin Sisters Crossing.

    And no, the Charr have always been us, they have always been based on Roman and Mongolian culture, the Devs built the entire race that way and have even said as much themselves, anyone who skimmed a history textbook could tell you that. Even if they weren't, it's a pretty weak argument to say something cannot be racist because it's not from earth, racism as a concept would still exist on any alien world, it might just have a different name at best.

    Welcome to Sylvari in HoT or humans in PoF, when Anet focuses on your faction they show all the good and the bad, and the Charr have always had a lot of bad to sort through.

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @Tazer.2157 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Second, we do not see any infighting between the four legions. They always seem to work together and function as a part of Charr society.

    Except this is complete nonsense. There has been infighting among the different tribes of Charr since before the Khan-Ur. Hell, the Khan-Ur rose to power by uniting the warring tribes of Charr. And we have seen, all throughout Guild wars 2, those tribes, now Legions, infighting among each other. The hundred+ years of fighting the Flame Legion being the biggest example, but we also see all throughout the core game that Blood, Iron, and Ash, are always trying to sabotage, and one up each other, and that members of each Legion are systemically, and culturally, racist against the other Legions, treating themselves as superior, while the other Legion are inferior.

    There is a difference between going to war and trying to sabotage and one up each other. There is no quest in game where you kill other legion members while being a part of a different legion.

    Flame legion were always outcasts within the Charr.

    Throughout the story we see all the three legions coming together and working together. We see this in the fire heart rise map where the 3 legions together to get rid of flame.

    There is deep, systemic, cultural racism and division among Charr society, due to the Legions constantly pitting themselves against each other.

    Everything is racist in 2020. Please stop with this already. The Charr are not us. Please stop comparing them to us.

    They only have some unity because they hated everyone else more then they hated each other, so loosely allied to fight everyone else. This is also a key factor in why the Olmakhan left in the first place.

    We barely even see this in game. Where is the conflict you speak off? Which map do I have to go to get quests of this conflict?

    None of them ever even refer to the lore in game. The history of the Charr in Tyria define them. There is nothing in their history that mandates any change to their way of life.

    All of these arguments tie directly into the lore of the game. You know, the same lore that has constantly shown the Charr to be a horribly self destructive species, with constant civil wars, infighting, large amounts of people getting abused and treated like trash for being disabled, or Gladium. Entire sections of Charr splitting off and going to remote places just to try to get away from how broken the whole thing is.

    Yeah man, there is no in-lore reason for the charr to change..... except the entirety of Charr lore.

    Again you haven’t given me a single quest in game that support your arguement that the Charr needs to change.

    We have given you loads of quests, quotes, and support from lore sources such as the Ecology of the Charr as to why they have always needed to change in some capacity. You just don't want them to change because the Charr facing consequences for their actions disrupts the power fantasy of them being unstoppable badasses. But that was never true, and I predicted much of this would happen two years ago, becoming certain of it with the introduction of the Olmakhan and Bug in the System. Your only proof to the contrary is, what? they own a lot of land? Yeah sorry to break it to you, that's mainly because the other races have been hit harder by the Elder Dragons and their own natural disasters, the world became a much different place when the Crystal Dragon recently awoke and finally exacerbated their own internal problems to the point they signed the Ebonhawke treaty and gave up any land south of Twin Sisters Crossing.

    And no, the Charr have always been us, they have always been based on Roman and Mongolian culture, the Devs built the entire race that way and have even said as much themselves, anyone who skimmed a history textbook could tell you that. Even if they weren't, it's a pretty weak argument to say something cannot be racist because it's not from earth, racism as a concept would still exist on any alien world, it might just have a different name at best.

    Welcome to Sylvari in HoT or humans in PoF, when Anet focuses on your faction they show all the good and the bad, and the Charr have always had a lot of bad to sort through.

    Name a single quest that shows infighting between the primary legions of iron, blood and ash. The devs might have used the Romans and the mongols as inspiration, but they made the Charr distinct by giving them an identity and a history that differs from the Romans and the Mongolian civ.

    To my understanding the game prior to this saga has never shown or mentioned that charr society is doomed to fail. On the contrary, the charr are highly successful.

    You can make as many assumptions of what the story might say, but I want real examples of quests that back your claim. If what you say is indeed true, that there is infighting among the charr and that their society is on the verge of collapse, where so we see these events in game?

    Btw it’s not just the Romans or the mongols that fell. Every civ and empire had their highs and lows. No empire rules forever. So the analogy that the charr should change just to preserve themselves is ludicrous when every other civ suffered the same fate.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    My issue with Jormag is he/she/it/they/dragonhelicopter/whatever shrunk.

    Seriously, look at the tooth in Hoelbrak, then think about how big Jormag's head wasn't when it was basically in your face. There is NO WAY that tooth came from that head.

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Kralkatorrik also had varying sizes between his multiple appearances.

    @Sir Alric.5078 said:
    I also noticed that. But they probably scaled down Jormag's model so it wouldn't be too big to fit the screen, just like they did with Kralkatorrik.

    The tooth came from Jormag's left tusk, which has its tip broken off, a tusk being a type of tooth(which apparently a lot of people don't know that tusk are teeth for some reason)

    That's fine, in theory, but again, there is no way that TUSK came from that HEAD. The scale is all wrong.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2020

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    My issue with Jormag is he/she/it/they/dragonhelicopter/whatever shrunk.

    Seriously, look at the tooth in Hoelbrak, then think about how big Jormag's head wasn't when it was basically in your face. There is NO WAY that tooth came from that head.

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Kralkatorrik also had varying sizes between his multiple appearances.

    @Sir Alric.5078 said:
    I also noticed that. But they probably scaled down Jormag's model so it wouldn't be too big to fit the screen, just like they did with Kralkatorrik.

    The tooth came from Jormag's left tusk, which has its tip broken off, a tusk being a type of tooth(which apparently a lot of people don't know that tusk are teeth for some reason)

    That's fine, in theory, but again, there is no way that TUSK came from that HEAD. The scale is all wrong.

    And, again, Arenanet is just adjusting the Dragon's size for the sake of presentation.
    Kralkatorrik had been victim to wild size-shifting as well.
    The scale doesn't matter.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2020

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    That's fine, in theory, but again, there is no way that TUSK came from that HEAD. The scale is all wrong.

    Actually, the tooth from Hoelbrek fits almost perfectly as in seen
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1300482/#Comment_1300482
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/309191637144436739/738092134368018522/SPOILER_jormag_tooth.png
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/309191637144436739/738093253668110366/SPOILER_slim.png

    the base of the tooth is just a bit wider then the in-game model, but not massively so.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2020

    @Tazer.2157 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @Tazer.2157 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tazer.2157 said:
    Second, we do not see any infighting between the four legions. They always seem to work together and function as a part of Charr society.

    Except this is complete nonsense. There has been infighting among the different tribes of Charr since before the Khan-Ur. Hell, the Khan-Ur rose to power by uniting the warring tribes of Charr. And we have seen, all throughout Guild wars 2, those tribes, now Legions, infighting among each other. The hundred+ years of fighting the Flame Legion being the biggest example, but we also see all throughout the core game that Blood, Iron, and Ash, are always trying to sabotage, and one up each other, and that members of each Legion are systemically, and culturally, racist against the other Legions, treating themselves as superior, while the other Legion are inferior.

    There is a difference between going to war and trying to sabotage and one up each other. There is no quest in game where you kill other legion members while being a part of a different legion.

    Flame legion were always outcasts within the Charr.

    Throughout the story we see all the three legions coming together and working together. We see this in the fire heart rise map where the 3 legions together to get rid of flame.

    There is deep, systemic, cultural racism and division among Charr society, due to the Legions constantly pitting themselves against each other.

    Everything is racist in 2020. Please stop with this already. The Charr are not us. Please stop comparing them to us.

    They only have some unity because they hated everyone else more then they hated each other, so loosely allied to fight everyone else. This is also a key factor in why the Olmakhan left in the first place.

    We barely even see this in game. Where is the conflict you speak off? Which map do I have to go to get quests of this conflict?

    None of them ever even refer to the lore in game. The history of the Charr in Tyria define them. There is nothing in their history that mandates any change to their way of life.

    All of these arguments tie directly into the lore of the game. You know, the same lore that has constantly shown the Charr to be a horribly self destructive species, with constant civil wars, infighting, large amounts of people getting abused and treated like trash for being disabled, or Gladium. Entire sections of Charr splitting off and going to remote places just to try to get away from how broken the whole thing is.

    Yeah man, there is no in-lore reason for the charr to change..... except the entirety of Charr lore.

    Again you haven’t given me a single quest in game that support your arguement that the Charr needs to change.

    We have given you loads of quests, quotes, and support from lore sources such as the Ecology of the Charr as to why they have always needed to change in some capacity. You just don't want them to change because the Charr facing consequences for their actions disrupts the power fantasy of them being unstoppable badasses. But that was never true, and I predicted much of this would happen two years ago, becoming certain of it with the introduction of the Olmakhan and Bug in the System. Your only proof to the contrary is, what? they own a lot of land? Yeah sorry to break it to you, that's mainly because the other races have been hit harder by the Elder Dragons and their own natural disasters, the world became a much different place when the Crystal Dragon recently awoke and finally exacerbated their own internal problems to the point they signed the Ebonhawke treaty and gave up any land south of Twin Sisters Crossing.

    And no, the Charr have always been us, they have always been based on Roman and Mongolian culture, the Devs built the entire race that way and have even said as much themselves, anyone who skimmed a history textbook could tell you that. Even if they weren't, it's a pretty weak argument to say something cannot be racist because it's not from earth, racism as a concept would still exist on any alien world, it might just have a different name at best.

    Welcome to Sylvari in HoT or humans in PoF, when Anet focuses on your faction they show all the good and the bad, and the Charr have always had a lot of bad to sort through.

    Name a single quest that shows infighting between the primary legions of iron, blood and ash. The devs might have used the Romans and the mongols as inspiration, but they made the Charr distinct by giving them an identity and a history that differs from the Romans and the Mongolian civ.

    To my understanding the game prior to this saga has never shown or mentioned that charr society is doomed to fail. On the contrary, the charr are highly successful.

    You can make as many assumptions of what the story might say, but I want real examples of quests that back your claim. If what you say is indeed true, that there is infighting among the charr and that their society is on the verge of collapse, where so we see these events in game?

    Btw it’s not just the Romans or the mongols that fell. Every civ and empire had their highs and lows. No empire rules forever. So the analogy that the charr should change just to preserve themselves is ludicrous when every other civ suffered the same fate.

    You're being overly reductive on that last point, it's not just that the Roman and Mongolian empire fell. By many metrics they were for a time quite successful as far as civilizations went in terms of military power and territory, but that they collapsed in such a violent way that they effectively dissolved as we knew them at the time. Some nations carry on elements of them in spirit, and the origin of the Mongol empire still exists, but the resulting meltdown essentially caused them to cease being a real political power in the world where smaller nations have continued to exist in more peaceful and stable ways that have given them more permanence. Vietnam, just as an example, has existed for thousands of years and weathered many invasions and occupations, but the core of Vietnamese culture has largely remained intact without suffering the same culture wrecking internal collapse that in the modern era would greatly weaken their power on the global stage. By contrast when we talk about Rome or Mongolia it's rarely in terms of their present power and influence so much as it is a historical lesson, we dissect them for their successes and critically their mistakes more then anything else.

    As for examples in questing: The wariness and hostility towards Bangar Ruinbringer as well as vice versa is not new, Flame Centurion Kagaar saw that the alliance between Blood and Iron was already tenuous and began running operations for the Flame Legion in order to weaken their alliance. He knew, much as the renegades did with Minister Duran at the Fields of Ruin, that Legion agreements were essentially a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. By breaking irons siege weapon and framing blood he hoped to force the Blood and Iron forces into a conflict that would essentially distract them while the Flame mopped up the other Legions. As he says : "Just a nudge to start Iron and Blood fighting, then we sweep in to pick the bones clean." this is to say nothing of the fact that Ash also distrusts the Legions enough that it's seeding agents across them and having them pose as legit soldiers and officers to maintain Malices spy network in the early personal story which also involved them not sharing information with the other legions in order to do their own ops. It's established pretty early on that the Legions do not trust, or like even, each other that much as a result and so it's not terribly surprising to learn Ruinbringers turned guns on the Black Citadel in the past.

    To be honest i'm not sure why anyone is shocked by this. In Charr society it's legal to kill your own Legionnaires for a promotion, if they don't get along with themselves how do they get along with each other? In Steeleye Span the Charr leadership is so dysfunctional that Vortari the Despoiler leads hundreds of Charr to their deaths to make zero progress against the brand before a Tribune comes down from the Citadel to kill him personally for incompetence. Nevermind that the fact the Legions have been stretched thin has been present since the earliest portions of the core game. In Ebonhawke Ascalonians are saying they should advance, not negotiate, because the Legions are on the ropes and they can't take much more pressure. Vanguard Morrison observes that all the Fields of Ruin soldiers are being picked up and moved north to the Flame Citadel to fight Baelfires rising army. People in the Gladiums Canton comment that their section of the city is poor and dilapidated mainly because the strained iron Legion forces have to deal with the Flame and there aren't many Adamant Guard to maintain the city internally, and even after Baelfires death in Season 1 many of the Charr refugees of the Molton Alliance are turned away from the Black Citadel because they cannot take care of their people, forcing them to take shelter in places like Cragstead.

    If you look at sheer volume of land the Charr 'own' then yes they are successful. But if you look at how that land is managed and what is happening to the general population they are a dumpsterfire.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    My issue with Jormag is he/she/it/they/dragonhelicopter/whatever shrunk.

    Seriously, look at the tooth in Hoelbrak, then think about how big Jormag's head wasn't when it was basically in your face. There is NO WAY that tooth came from that head.

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Kralkatorrik also had varying sizes between his multiple appearances.

    @Sir Alric.5078 said:
    I also noticed that. But they probably scaled down Jormag's model so it wouldn't be too big to fit the screen, just like they did with Kralkatorrik.

    The tooth came from Jormag's left tusk, which has its tip broken off, a tusk being a type of tooth(which apparently a lot of people don't know that tusk are teeth for some reason)

    That's fine, in theory, but again, there is no way that TUSK came from that HEAD. The scale is all wrong.

    The other tusk even looks like the tooth, where Jormag’s actual teeth look nothing like the tooth in Hoelbrak.

    Just going to have to go with Occam’s Razor on this one.

  • Kurrilino.2706Kurrilino.2706 Member ✭✭✭

    @Weindrasi.3805 said:
    I don't get why people in the forums freak out with negativity after every chapter release.

    Maybe because they don't like it ???? Ever thought about that?
    If you paint a picture and people hate it, it's time to think about your painting skills, not blaming the people

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kurrilino.2706 said:

    @Weindrasi.3805 said:
    I don't get why people in the forums freak out with negativity after every chapter release.

    Maybe because they don't like it ???? Ever thought about that?
    If you paint a picture and people hate it, it's time to think about your painting skills, not blaming the people

    Probably a bad analogy since art is very subjective.

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Smoldr has done nothing but send the commander on errands, especially ones involving the building of IKEA charr technology (while being a human with little engineering experience - don't blame me if the tank starts driving backwards~)

    I don't think he will be missed.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Kurrilino.2706 said:

    @Weindrasi.3805 said:
    I don't get why people in the forums freak out with negativity after every chapter release.

    Maybe because they don't like it ???? Ever thought about that?
    If you paint a picture and people hate it, it's time to think about your painting skills, not blaming the people

    Probably a bad analogy since art is very subjective.

    mmos are even more subjective, the only product is "fun time". any art work will end up with a price tag, ranging from none to many millions

  • Sarie.1630Sarie.1630 Member ✭✭

    @Sir Alric.5078 said:

    @Sarie.1630 said:

    I wonder if it's all gearing up to Efram being appointed as Khan-Ur. Whenever there's leading to be done, it's invariably Efram up-front.

    Bangar is a puppet on display, Ryland is now a Champion of Jormag, Smodur is dead, Efram seems like a good guy but he leads the Flame legion which was the enemy until not too long ago, so i don't think they will choose him. Plus he's now the only dude among an all female leadership. I get the feeling that they are going to pick Crecia for the job, but we shall see.

    I replayed the episode the other day and was struck, second time around, by a lot of the language used by Malice. Malice diplomatically sidesteps important questions. I got the feeling that perhaps Malice's Ash agents working behind enemy lines assisted in contacting Ryland, and orchestrating the attack on Smodur. I'm very intrigued to find out what Malice's motives are in this Saga which are currently being downplayed and hinted at, at low level. Can't work out if this supports my previous theory about Efram or not, now... perhaps Malice is trying to get Efram into a position where he can be Khan-Ur, and therefore needed Smodur out of the way as he is high ranking enough to potentially challenge the position. Not sure why Malice would want Efram in the post, though... my thought process has stalled a bit now, but it's interesting to consider.

    I don't think Malice is working for, or in league with Jormag... at least for the time being... but I do think she may have some interesting motives and goals lurking in the background.

  • @Tazer.2157 said:
    Once again not surprisingly the story is the weakest element in the episode and quite frankly spoils the entire episode. So well done. After you retconned and antagonized Smodur, you’ve killed him off in a similar manner. Also after building up Bangar, this bad kitten of a Charr who has always been ahead of you, who has rallied troops to his side, who convinced Ryland to attack Almorra, you’ve collared him and put him in a cage. Just why? Please just go ahead and kill Bangar off because he clearly doesn’t not belong in this sad excuse for a story. Let him and Smodur be erased from memory and have a peaceful afterlife far away from this dreadful story. To Smodur and Bangar, two bad kitten Charr who have been badly written. May you both Rest In Peace.

    I think you are missing the point of the story. Jormag wakes up, and the first thing he does is turn Bangar into its voice. Hence, to Jormag, Bangar´s role is the most important there is. My take is Jormag will use Bangar to corrupt Aurene.

    Making Ryland Jormag´s champions was almost an afterthought. It wouldn´t have happened were it not for Ryland begging for it. Clearly, the champion is not as important a role to Jormag.

    As to whether this is justice for Bangar and Smodur, well, Bangar started a civil war and went against a dragon, only to be used by the dragon, it suits him.

    Smodur, yeah, the last few episodes were a mess for him. I am glad they killed him, he had become a Meme at this point.