[Spoiler] Is (S)he truly a bad guy? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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[Spoiler] Is (S)he truly a bad guy?

Cronospere.8143Cronospere.8143 Member ✭✭✭
edited August 1, 2020 in Living World

Okay hear me out.

Since the beginning of this season I get the strange feeling Jormag isn't a bad guy. Latest episode "Jormag Rising" only feeds my suspicion.

See these whispers from Jormag in episode 1:

_ Braham Eirsson: My fault? If I had been there...
Unknown: So much pain... He needs rest... (later confirmed to be Jormag)

....

Braham Eirsson: A cave in this forest... That's where Jhavi is. And the lens—must be reacting because of her. But what about Almorra?
Unknown: Let me help you...

....
Jormag: Champion.
Jormag: It's time I treat you with the respect you deserve. Speak face-to-face.
Rytlock Brimstone: That voice...
Jormag: The air is thick with change. I feel it, even as I dream beneath the ice.
Braham Eirsson: Jormag.
Jormag: You fear me as you feared Kralkatorrik. That is natural. But ice fortifies. Ice protects.
Jormag: All this war, all this pain... Aurene wants to end it. And I can help her. I want to help her.
Jormag: Terrible things lurk just beyond the horizon. But you can bring eternal peace to our world.
Jormag: In time, you'll realize you need me. And when you do...
Jormag: I'll be waiting.

....

Episode 2:

Crecia Stoneglow: Watch it! They're everywhere!
Jormag: You're here to kill Drakkar, but why do you bring weapons when you know words will suffice?
Braham Eirsson: Your words make people kill each other!
Jormag: Maybe you should listen...

.....
Jormag: If they kill Drakkar, who's next?
Crecia Stoneglow: If we kill Drakkar, then what? Who's next? You'd kill Bangar. Then Ryland... Destroy the legions to stop Jormag.

.....

The Whisper of Jormag: Commander. It's finally time for us to talk.
The Whisper of Jormag: I understand why you want to silence me, but you must listen. For Tyria's sake.
The Whisper of Jormag: For thousands of years, I've watched this broken system consume entire civilizations.
The Whisper of Jormag: But it was not always this way. You, Aurene, and I—we can save this world. Preserve it.

.... _

Now in this episode Jormag spared us all and while now being free, he doesn't attack Tyria.

See these lines from Aurene in the last episode:

_Aurene: I wish I knew. I sense Jormag moving through Tyria, taking advantage of the Mists as Kralkatorrik did.
Aurene: Yet they choose neither to consume nor destroy. Pleasant change of pace, but disturbing nonetheless.

_

Now with all this information, it feels to me that Jormag is preparing for something far worse than him and us.
There seems to be not a single moment in the season of which he truly speaks evil. It's always about trying to help and trying to convince us he isn't the bad guy.
We as a main character presume the worst thinking he is trying to convert us. But what if he is speaking the truth?

Let me just saying now:

Either i'm converted by Jormag or he will be our ally soon.

EDIT: As some pointed out, Jormag is actually a she

Comments

  • Cronospere.8143Cronospere.8143 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2020

    Also: in the announcement trailer Jormag says: (1:42 - 1:57)

    Join me and you will have the strenght to protect your people from the trials to come.
    Stand against me and you'll stand alone..

    He doesn't say we will be his enemy. but that we will be alone in the next major thing that will hunt us..

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    So you say what Jormag said is true because... Jormag said it? Am I getting your point right?

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    All things...grow. And the blossom bothers the weed.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    It’s an interesting thought but my confidence in the game delivering a good story is non-existent. But after what Jormag did to Bangar who knows. He might be fighting for Tyria after all because we all know Ryland is the prodigal son in this story. Crecia can’t be denied, she’s the writers favorite character.

  • Cronospere.8143Cronospere.8143 Member ✭✭✭

    @anninke.7469 said:
    So you say what Jormag said is true because... Jormag said it? Am I getting your point right?

    Well he does not in any way threaten us. Kralkattorik wasn't a bad guy at start either. The amount of magic drove him mad and conflicting in its head. All this time since the start of gw2 we are fighting with the idea that elder dragons are bad guys. Now we have Aurene, we have the struggling kralk and i just get the feeling that the PC automaticly assumes jormag is bad. Because, well we thats what they always said right? In every conversation with Jormag the PC is the one talking bad. saying Jormag is bad.

    Until this point, we have attacked jormags minions, not the other way around. Right? We followed bangar, to well kill bangar. but has there been any attack from jormag towards us? or was he simply defending "his" territory?

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Isn't the whole shtick of Jormag survival of the fittest, so the strong survive.
    What if those that get corrupted are not "blessed" but cursed since they were too weak and succumbed to his will so he will just use them as a pawn to test the "worthy" for whatever his plan is.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
  • Poormany.4507Poormany.4507 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    I think Jormag's just playing a long-term game with the Commander and allies, just like they did with Bangar to get the Frost Legion army. Not sure what the end goal is, but they could be using the commander to kill off the remaining elder dragons (especially Primordus) for them. Primordus is Jormag's weakness, was able to damage Jormag based on the Jormag shards achievement, and has been regaining strength recently, so using the commander to fight Primordus and then somehow absorb the energy would be a big win for Jormag. I do expect Jormag to turn on us the moment they get whatever it is they want though.

  • Cronospere.8143Cronospere.8143 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    Jormag isn't a "he". Just saying.

    I can't believe I missed that. In my mind it was always a He.

    @Windu The Forbidden One.6045 said:

    @Khanco.1584 said:

    It feels to me less like Jormag spared the Commander because they didn't want to kill them and more because we have a greater part yet to play in their plans

    Not only that, but if Jormag truly wants to manipulate people into following him, killing one of Tyria's greatest and most famous heroes would be counter productive. On the contrary, Jormag probably wants the Commander on his side more than anything. What better way to sell the idea that he is the "good guy" than getting the Pact Commander, the slayer of dragons, on your side.

    Sparing the Commander is probably just a means to an end, not a sign of benevolence.

    Strong argument. I think you might be right. Jormag is a smart elder dragon.
    I wonder what she knows about whats coming. But it must be something big.

    Whatever way we are going, either we join Jormag, or we need Jormag to ally with us.. I think we will struggle for a while, but eventually we are going to need Jormag too.

  • Spanex.1950Spanex.1950 Member ✭✭

    What would Jormag be needing that army for, then?

    Here is what I expect to see happen, and I'll put it in spoiler tags just in case.

    Jormag wants to get rid of Primordus and is going to use their new army to do so. Why? Not sure yet, but a possible motivation could be because they are each others' weakness as we discovered in season 3. We all know if one more dragon bites the dust, the world ends, so that isn't an option for us to take. But perhaps Jormag seeks to take their rival's magic for themselves. Is there a risk that the excess magic will drive them to madness like it did with Kralkatorrik? So many questions... Whichever happens will surely spell doom for us.

    I'd like to believe that Jormag isn't the villain this time, and they really do want to help us. It would be a cool twist, but they've tricked before. Surely they will trick again.

  • SexyMofo.8923SexyMofo.8923 Member ✭✭✭

    Humans are the biggest threat to the world. They destroy everything they touch. Jormag is the good guy trying to stop the humans from throwing trash into the sea.

  • Finalfreefall.8247Finalfreefall.8247 Member ✭✭
    edited August 2, 2020

    Meta reason: I'm inclined to think no, simply because the percentage of female villains in Guild Wars 2 is... sexist levels of small. Everyone points to Scarlett then sort of just shrugs and goes back to a male-dominated villain scene. Scarlett didn't even have agency kitten, she was a dragon minion. Heck, a disturbing number of the female characters with "agency" ended up being dragon minions. Same with female characters getting killed to motivate poorly written males. (RIP Eir.) Apologies, you didn't ask for a rant, but Guild Wars 2 is pretty sexist about this and it irks me.

  • Felipe.1807Felipe.1807 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Spanex.1950 said:
    What would Jormag be needing that army for, then?

    Here is what I expect to see happen, and I'll put it in spoiler tags just in case.

    Jormag wants to get rid of Primordus and is going to use their new army to do so. Why? Not sure yet, but a possible motivation could be because they are each others' weakness as we discovered in season 3. We all know if one more dragon bites the dust, the world ends, so that isn't an option for us to take. But perhaps Jormag seeks to take their rival's magic for themselves. Is there a risk that the excess magic will drive them to madness like it did with Kralkatorrik? So many questions... Whichever happens will surely spell doom for us.

    I'd like to believe that Jormag isn't the villain this time, and they really do want to help us. It would be a cool twist, but they've tricked before. Surely they will trick again.

    As someone who plays mainly Norns, this would be the stupid twist that I ever seen...and I wouldnt even be surprised if Anet pulled this one...like they did with Koda, were countless of Kodan tells you about how Dragons are agents of corruption and destruction, and is their duty to fight them to keep the balance in the world...and years later is revealed that Dragons actually keep the balance in the world, AKA, Kodan and the teachings of Koda are full of kitten lol

  • Spanex.1950Spanex.1950 Member ✭✭

    Eh. I dunno, I'm easy to please I suppose, but I fail to see what's so bad about that idea. The fact that the Koda were wrong about dragons only shows how yes, even they make mistakes. It makes them human, for lack of better term. But do remember I don't expect Jormag to be a goody two-shoes like they're claiming. I expect it's just another trick like usual.

    Anyway, I'd be pretty hyped if I turn out to be right with my prediction, but I do would love some questions answered that get raised with it. I'm sure Anet has that covered, though.

  • It is simple bois, there is fire dragon called Primordius and he also sleep. Fire is counter to ice. So it is obvious that ice(Jormag)will fight fire(Primordius) while it is silent in way to prevent worse scenarios. Devs made everything obvious and story is sad, nothing new, everything predictable. Guess how water dragon gonna appear in Cantha expansion: ice+fire=water. Story should change, to leave us without spoliers. Just with pure guessing what can happen in future, and devs should make it surprising to us all with unexpected scenarios but also with point. At least last episode proved that map and events can get better. Main story about dragons have to change and should stay main story. Mistake devs made was using "side story" about charr and their war as main story while swaping main story about Jormag to be side one.

    At least if they use war as current main story, make those battles epic ones like in lord of the rings. I don't feel war nor fights serious, it is pure joke how they made it, few of our heros walking here and there and boom minor things happen, few dead and that's it.

    Lead us into war, fights, big battleground where 2 big armies hit each other with millions of soldiers, make Tyria great again not small. I wanna see story where nothing surprises me at start but at the end, leaving me to guess what will happen next. At start i wanna get in and feel energy of war, with its all glory and tragedy.

    To make big fights possible, simple make many monsters with low health and limit players to hit 5 targets at best, it will make fights epic. Us heros fighting so many people, carrying the victory. Let us feel like real commander not like some side old one who get reports and do nothing but meet dragons , talk with enemies, not even using skills but just watching npcs talking around... Stop it.

  • I repeat it here (I already talked about it in the Lore section) but it is not Jormag who wants to attack Primordius in my opinion but it is Primordius who wants to attack Jormag.

    Jormag is neither nasty nor nice (I am French and in game Jormag calls himself "he" :) so clearly it is a male for the French ^^). Just that he will do everything for his own interest. We can believe that he really wants to preserve Tyria because he knows that if another dragon dies, Tyria will explode.

    However Jormag knows that Primordius seems to intend to eat him and that's why Jormag tries to convince the Dragon Slayer (us, our character ^^) and that he takes advantage of the civil war he pushed to make in Bangar to create an even bigger army to defend himself against Primordius (who by the way must be about to wake up too (cf https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1302521/#Comment_1302521 to know why he would be about to wake up)).

    Jormag doesn't want to die and he knows that he can't do anything against Primordius without destroying Tyria (and killing himself).

    Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

    That's how I see it (it's not a truth ^^)

    Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I get the feeling Anet might go for anothed faux partnership. I mean, "Lazarus" seemed like a perfectly respectable dude who helped save Aurine. Well, at least until we found out he used the White Mantle as worm food.

  • Cronospere.8143Cronospere.8143 Member ✭✭✭

    The thing is that ANet has always been very clear with what is going to happen.
    With the killing of Aurene, many of us were surprised. But if you repeat the story there were hints all over the place.
    I'm not saying my idea is the right one, but I wouldn't be surprised.
    A good story needs a good plot twist, a hard one that you feel in the core of your body. Like they did in LS4. (well done)(apart from the instant resurrection)

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As far as the threat on the horizon, I honestly think Jormag is going to create the threat or lure it to Tyria from the mists just in an effort to force us to ask for an alliance without realizing that Jormag is the reason the threat exists.

    Perhaps not. I don't really get the whole Primordus thing though. Sure, Primordus is a weakness, but we've already had Aesgir and Braham's bow with the enchanted scroll essentially show that Jormag can have OTHER weaknesses. Focusing solely on eliminating Primordus seems a little narrow minded. Especially if we ever decide to turn on them. Who is to say Jormag doesn't instigate Primordus to begin with? I'm also just wondering why now? I guess because Aurene didn't exist in the countless millennia prior to now so they didn't really see any other option.

    I don't think Jormag will be a straight up "good" guy as it's done some pretty devious and malicious things already, but it may be the lesser of two evils for the saga, whether that evil was Jormag's doing, Primordus, or something else entirely.

    I'm also wondering how Jormag would be privy to the knowledge of this "threat on the horizon" when Aurene, a prophetic dragon by nature that is just existing between multiple planes right now hasn't been like, "Yo, there's some bad kitten coming." Why would Jormag know and not Aurene? There's just something off about it all.

    I guess the only thing that makes sense would be Jormag realizing it's time for another elder dragon to become active because it's lived through so many cycles it knows when it's time for another one to start. But you'd think Aurene would be able to sense this somehow now that she's ascended as well.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Your voice is not your own

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Hypnowulf.7403Hypnowulf.7403 Member ✭✭
    edited August 5, 2020

    What interests me is how symbolic Jormag is of autism. I say this as a person who's on the more extreme end of the spectrum. It feels raw.

    In the past, people believed that autistic people lacked empathy simply because ours didn't work in the same way and wasn't exercised in the same way as normal people. Our inability to convey it in a way they understand makes them distrust us. — Jormag
    It's actually been found that autistic people are highly empathetic, many of us are highly sensive persons who feel pain when others suffer. We aren't too proud to beg to help others if we feel they need it. — Jormag applies here.
    Autistic people have been commonly mixed up with sociopaths because normal people read anything unfamiliar as some kind of plot to undermine them. — Jormag again.
    Normal people only pay attention to body language as an aspect of communication, often ignoring tone. Autistic people are very sensitive to tone and we can't stand insincerity. An autistic person will endeavour to be sincere. — This applies too. Jormag always sounds incredibly sincere and it's too convincing to be bad voice acting.

    Look at what Jormag did with Bangar, it was an act of empathy. It feels like a very autistic thing to understandt hat a voice can be a weapon, that words can kill, and that charisma so easily allows normal people to be puppeteered. Yes, Jormag feels Machiavellian but that isn't evil in any way, throughout history there are examples of kind, good Machiavellian minds. Jormag, however, isn't manipulative. In fact, they can't even be dishonest. One of the writers has said this a number of times on Twitter, that Jormag is always honest and that their power is persuasaion.

    It's important to understand what persuasion actually is. It's rooted in reason. I've seen the writers get antsy when people imply that Jormag has mind control or manipulation, neither is true. Their power is more like a strong, logical argument.

    Anyway, on the topic of Bangar: How else could he have been dealt with? Had he simply been let go, he would've used his power of charisma to sway the charr into murdering one another again. How would you stop that? Would you take his freedom? His health? His life? Jormag took his voice, which is an act of compassion. There's the chance that Bangar can be rehabilitated, shown the error of his ways and taught how faceless fear drove him to bigotry.

    I want to believe that Jormag is on the up and up.

    It would be disappointing if they weren't. It would just be another example of a shady, evil autistic character otherwise. There's just so much about Jormag that's... so autistic. The way they interact, they way they talk, how they tend to prefer isolation, and how fed up they are with manipulation (see: Bangar). All I get from Jormag is that they're a highly sensitive autistic person who happens to be a dragon with persuasion powers. That's a lot of things that could be easily misunderstood.

    I'm open to being wrong and being disappointed (again) but I hope that the purpose of this story is to teach the folly of biases, of early judgement, and of judging a book by its cover without any in-depth information.

    There are a few clues I found interesting and compelling. It's revealed that Jora didn't kill Svanir because he attacked her, but rather because he "looked like a twisted mockery." Similarly, we learn that the kodan have begun to murder people out of xenophobic paranoia. Oh, you sound a bit appreciative of the therapy dragon? Your voice isn't your own!

    That's how I tend to see Jormag too. They're... so against suffering.

    If you at all have any sense of tone, any at all, have a listen to the trailer.

    The way they say suffering is so telling. I caught this immediately because I'm sensitive to tone. I know that some might think it's angry or intimidating because they shifted to Jormag's more draconic voice. It isn't. Listen to the tone beyond that. It's... frustration, desperation. Jormag sees the torment destroying Tyria, pulling it apart with war and pain. The writers have told us that Jormag truly loves Tyria, so this would tear them up inside.

    Now have a listen to this. You will need good hearing for it, though. I apologise for that.

    It's Jormag. They sound so sincere, the way they beg is... It's raw. I can't describe it any other way.

    Either ArenaNet is going to give me us a kind yet misunderstood therapy dragon that's autistic as heck, or they're going to just be another autistic villain trope. I don't know about you, but I'm tired of that trope. I'm also tired of the hurr hurr smash thing stories that Guild Wars 2 has told prior. I don't know that the community has enough toxic masculinity for that to be a good sell.

    What if the story was actually about confronting the abstract concept of suffering in Tyria (the torment) though? That'd be different. A cancerous force that's causing cycles of pain and death. That would be a compelling story to me.

    (It's only fair that I admit my own biases as well. I have a vested interest in therapy and hypnotherapy, and I have a deep love for dragons. So seeing an autistic dragon who's interested in easing pain and suffering... That would be a very cathartic, meaningful experience for me. It's just as easy that Jormag could be an evil autist trope though who's just going to die at the end and I'll end up very depressed.)

    (Edited for clarity.)

  • Jokubas.4265Jokubas.4265 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2020

    I feel like they might be setting up that Jormag still isn't a villain, but I can't stand the villain that is revealed in a twist to have "actually" have been a hero all along, even though the only reason why we thought they were a villain to begin with was because they were actually doing horrible things and refused every opportunity to explain themselves until the big reveal.

    The problem with that cliche is that we aren't jumping to conclusions about these characters and misunderstanding them. They are actively causing destruction and never once even attempting to give meaningful context to it. We are given only one conclusion to reasonably come to. Retroactively trying to make us feel guilty about it will always ring false when such a character never tried explaining themselves to the heroic main cast who are usually defined by being understanding. "I swear I have a plan" doesn't mean anything when we've only been reacting in self defense to begin with.

    We were content to leave Jormag alone after the whole Taimi's Machine thing. We've been going after Jormag right now because of the trouble Bangar caused, that Jormag bailed Bangar out of, and because of all the dead people in Jora's Keep. Jormag didn't have to let that happen. While we're following in the wake of this destruction, Jormag could have ordered their troops to lay down their weapons. Bangar is the sort of person who would keep slaughtering his way through unarmed Dragon followers, not us. Rytlock would immediately question what's going on instead of murdering defenseless pacifists. If Jormag doesn't have such control over all their followers, and considers some to just be crazy cultists that give them a bad name, then tell us that.

    The only time I've ever been able to forgive such a plot was in a setting mired in conspiracies, so the "villain" had an excuse not to trust anyone, but that isn't the case here. Not only is the Commander and our friends world-renowned heroes at this point, but through Aurene we've shown that we can also befriend a dragon. This is not obscure information. Jormag would know this. If Jormag actually had altruistic motives, they have absolutely no excuse to not just tell us what they are, especially when we're shown on multiple occasions that they can literally just whisper to us whatever they want. When all of those whispers are wasted on baseless claims or vague riddles, the onus is not on us to clear things up.

    In another words, by this point, Jormag would be, at best, a villain who is retconned into being a hero in order to make you feel guilty, not a hero all along that we misunderstood. That's already not something positive to associate with either way.

  • Khandarus.2738Khandarus.2738 Member ✭✭

    Na don't care. The dragon is the reason Almora is dead so Jormag is getting suplexed through as many tables as it takes. Even if they are a "good guy". Mostly cause anet seems to kill every character I care about... Except traherne, ooh boy did that feel good.

    Also Jormag is not a she or a he. Anet changed them to be non binary and whomever is speaking to it perceives it as what ever they want it to be.

    Still no excuse, dragon gotta die.

  • Hypnowulf.7403Hypnowulf.7403 Member ✭✭

    Something important has occurred to me...

    Jormag is a sincerity power fantasy.

    How would you go about creating a compelling sincerity power fantasy? Well, in part it would be about having the power to compel people to listen. Not to make them obey, that isn't what it's about, but to quite literally force them to listen to reason instead of acting like destructive, immature children. The other aspect of a sincerity power fantasy lies with the one doing the convincing, they must be inherently sincere themself.

    I've heard it said that neurotypicals—notably extraverts—say whatever comes to mind; But they don't, not at all. In fact, they have a filter that stops them from sharing, especially from oversharing. Yes, they speak a lot but it's to keep the conversation going since that's what fuels them. It's not saying whatever comes into their mind, it's more like a human parsable lorem ipsum generator.

    Autistic people however do say what comes to mind because we have no filter. In this way we're sincere because you'll always know what we're thinking. That's how it is for us. You're absolutely sharing a space with our inner mind because there isn't much between that and what we say. A lot of autistic people are forced to be sincere because that's how their mind works.

    So a sincerity power fantasy would be about understanding that. It would be about overcoming how sincerity itself is so often demonised and misunderstood by those who wouldn't listen, since as I said that's something that many don't want to do—listen. The majority of neurotypicals, extraverts especially, would prefer to hear what's convenient as opposed to what another is actually saying. This is where the concept of the straw-man argument comes from, it's inherently something about the way neurotypical minds work. Neurotypical minds don't listen good.

    I've had bad experiences trying to talk with neurotypicals where they just haven't listened and it's cost lives. I'm very traumatised by these experiences, it's messed me up. I don't know whehter it's egotism, arrogance, or just overly emotional obstinance in feeling that they always want to be dominant, always in control of everything but... It's a truth that neurotypicals don't listen good. It's often like talking to a brick wall. For the most part, I've given up on bothering to communicate with them as it never happens.

    You say something and they'll hear something else. They don't listen.

    It's the most frustrating experience to have because they can be so stubborn. It can lead to them doing foolish things that harm themselves or others. They don't seem to understand that someone can understand something that they don't. This is why you often have neurotypicals arguing with medical professionals or buying into conspiracy theories. You can beg them to listen, you can plead with them, and they just... They don't listen. I can definitely understand why having a power fantasy where one could grab their mind and force them to would be so thoroughly cathartic.

    It wouldn't be evil or unethical because you're not forcing them to agree, all you're doing is ensuring that they can actually hear and parse what you're really saying.

    It's a frustration a lot of autistic people I've spoken with tend to have. I'd like to have Jormag's power.

    I think where this all stems from is that... On some level, neurotypicals appear to distrust and dislike real sincerity. It's too raw, too honest, it doesn't make them feel important and relevant. Now, if you were to butter them up, praise them, and preen them then it becomes easy to manipulate them and have them agree to or with things.

    This is a manipulation. It might feel like the person who's doing this is being supportive but it really isn't. To really be supportive you have to be honest and to do what's in another person's best interests even if it costs you. It isn't about what you can get from them just for being "nice" and "friendly." There's telling them what they need to hear, and then there's telling them what they want to hear.

    It feels that neurotypicals need to feel empowered with faux agency. You can say one thing and they'll hear another, sadly what they hear instead is often designed to boost their ego regardless of whether what you're saying is more important. Thus the trick to manipulating is synchronising with what neurotypicals want to hear. If you can do that, then they're easy to control.

    This is simple to understand on a basic level—I mean, the mechanics of it are painfully visible—but autistic people tend to lack that capacity for social manipulation. It's difficult to get all of the details right, to know what they want to hear or how to synchronise with them. How manipulators will even synchronise with a victim's body language in order to manipulate is just baffling...

    How they do that? Seriously.

    This is why neurotypicals would rather listen to a sociopath or a charismatic tyrant—like Bangar—rather than someone who's really, genuinely trying to help them.

    Therefore, to make a sincerity power fantasy truly cathartic it would involve muting the charismatic sociopath so that they cannot use their talent. It would be about understanding that a voice can be used in a multitude of ways, even as a weapon. It's understanding that words can kill.

    This is exactly what Jormag did.

    I mean... Wouldn't it be nice if you could just have the stroppy, obstinate people who need to be buttered up could instead listen without needing to tell them what they want to hear? Wouldn't it be nice as well if you could deal with those who can use their voice as a weapon to do others so much harm? Indeed, how much harm in the world is founded in how people believe monsters are being honest with them?

    You could have them hear your begging and realise your sincerity, and consider your words on their own merit without needing this social dance. You could compel their minds to do that. You could make it clear how much they're being used, manipulated, and forced to suffer.

    You could have them understand what sincerity really is and the value of it. That's what Jormag's power is.

    Jormag is a sincerity power fantasy.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It might be a case that Jormag isn't a "good guy" but also doesn't want Tyria to end. There's a very real problem with magic destabilizing and destroying the planet. It's Jormag's home and they probably do want to preserve it- just for selfish reasons. Really the only dragon we've seen try to actively destabilize things is Kralkatorric who was driven to madness. Jormag seems more calculating and might be trying to turn this into more of an enemy mine situation or leveraging the fact that we can't kill them without making things worse.

  • Cronospere.8143Cronospere.8143 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    Either ArenaNet is going to give me us a kind yet misunderstood therapy dragon that's autistic as heck, or they're going to just be another autistic villain trope. I don't know about you, but I'm tired of that trope. I'm also tired of the hurr hurr smash thing stories that Guild Wars 2 has told prior. I don't know that the community has enough toxic masculinity for that to be a good sell.

    What if the story was actually about confronting the abstract concept of suffering in Tyria (the torment) though? That'd be different. A cancerous force that's causing cycles of pain and death. That would be a compelling story to me.

    (It's only fair that I admit my own biases as well. I have a vested interest in therapy and hypnotherapy, and I have a deep love for dragons. So seeing an autistic dragon who's interested in easing pain and suffering... That would be a very cathartic, meaningful experience for me. It's just as easy that Jormag could be an evil autist trope though who's just going to die at the end and I'll end up very depressed.)

    Thank you for your answer, I like what you said in your post. One question: Why do you refer to Jormag as "They"?

    I liked to be surprised. A straight forward vilain story isn't what I like to see. Just like you said. I'm convinced ANet will give a good twist or surprise to the story.
    For some reason I can't shake the feeling Jormag is a good one. And honestly it scares me. Because what if (s)he is an hardcore bad one? What does it say about me?

    @Khandarus.2738 said:
    Na don't care. The dragon is the reason Almora is dead so Jormag is getting suplexed through as many tables as it takes. Even if they are a "good guy". Mostly cause anet seems to kill every character I care about... Except traherne, ooh boy did that feel good.

    Did Jormag kill her? No Bangar killed her.. > @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    It might be a case that Jormag isn't a "good guy" but also doesn't want Tyria to end. There's a very real problem with magic destabilizing and destroying the planet. It's Jormag's home and they probably do want to preserve it- just for selfish reasons. Really the only dragon we've seen try to actively destabilize things is Kralkatorric who was driven to madness. Jormag seems more calculating and might be trying to turn this into more of an enemy mine situation or leveraging the fact that we can't kill them without making things worse.

    Mordremoth did the same. He Destabilized the entire maguuma forest.

  • Khandarus.2738Khandarus.2738 Member ✭✭

    @Cronospere.8143 said:

    @Khandarus.2738 said:
    Na don't care. The dragon is the reason Almora is dead so Jormag is getting suplexed through as many tables as it takes. Even if they are a "good guy". Mostly cause anet seems to kill every character I care about... Except traherne, ooh boy did that feel good.

    Did Jormag kill her? No Bangar killed her.. >

    Jormag was manipulating Bangar.
    It boils down to, do you blame the sword or the person wielding it. Without Jormag influence Bangar wouldn't of killed her.

  • Ototo.3214Ototo.3214 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think Jormag will be a "good guy" but it's entirely possible that they are worried about some other threat and are hoping to utilize us to their advantage against. Here's hoping for the deput of Bubbles.

    But I also personally wouldn't trust the voice that psycologically manipulates everyone around us.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ototo.3214 said:
    I don't think Jormag will be a "good guy" but it's entirely possible that they are worried about some other threat and are hoping to utilize us to their advantage against. Here's hoping for the deput of Bubbles.

    If Jormag wants us to utilize us to their advantage against something else, I suspect it would be Primordus, given that they are each other's weaknesses, and, given all the blood around Drizzlewood, Jormag doesn't seem to have done too well in the last fight.

  • Ototo.3214Ototo.3214 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Ototo.3214 said:
    I don't think Jormag will be a "good guy" but it's entirely possible that they are worried about some other threat and are hoping to utilize us to their advantage against. Here's hoping for the deput of Bubbles.

    If Jormag wants us to utilize us to their advantage against something else, I suspect it would be Primordus, given that they are each other's weaknesses, and, given all the blood around Drizzlewood, Jormag doesn't seem to have done too well in the last fight.

    Yeah but we know we're ending up in Cantha somehow and that doesn't seem like a Primordus tie in, to me at least.

    Also, that one section of the Icebrood Saga trailer with the sinking ship feels...very out of place for both Jormag and Primordus.

    I personally thinking they're saving Primordus for last and it'll be more Asura focused
    I've been wrong before though so who knows

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited 6:59PM

    @Ototo.3214 said:
    Yeah but we know we're ending up in Cantha somehow and that doesn't seem like a Primordus tie in, to me at least.

    Also, that one section of the Icebrood Saga trailer with the sinking ship feels...very out of place for both Jormag and Primordus.

    I personally thinking they're saving Primordus for last and it'll be more Asura focused
    I've been wrong before though so who knows

    We are going to Cantha... in the next expansion. IBS is, as far as we know, staying in Tyria. IBS really doesn't need to do anything to bring up Cantha, and the Canthan problem could just start out of nowhere. I mean, look at IBS itself. What in LWS4 propped up Jormag as the next big bad? Nothing, we just got a prologue episode "Bound by Blood" and that is what started the Jormag plot. Anet could also make a smaller prologue episode for the Canthan expansion, have them open up the Dominion of Winds for the Tengu celebrating the defeat of the 4th dragon, and then have that set up the return to Cantha.

    We know IBS has like 4 more episodes left, and that they are likely split maps like Bjora/Drizzlewood are, which means two more maps in total, one of which is almost certainly the Jormag fight map ala Dragon's Stand/Dragonfall. So like, I don't see the next map being water/Bubbles/Cantha based when we still have to deal with Ryland and the Spirits of the Wild stuff.

    I do agree that the Primordus story will be tied to Asura stuff, but I think that will happen after the Cantha expansion, which will likely focus on the tyrannical Canthan Empire/Ministry of Purity, and the Canthan LW season/saga, which will be the Bubbles plot.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cronospere.8143 said:

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    Either ArenaNet is going to give me us a kind yet misunderstood therapy dragon that's autistic as heck, or they're going to just be another autistic villain trope. I don't know about you, but I'm tired of that trope. I'm also tired of the hurr hurr smash thing stories that Guild Wars 2 has told prior. I don't know that the community has enough toxic masculinity for that to be a good sell.

    What if the story was actually about confronting the abstract concept of suffering in Tyria (the torment) though? That'd be different. A cancerous force that's causing cycles of pain and death. That would be a compelling story to me.

    (It's only fair that I admit my own biases as well. I have a vested interest in therapy and hypnotherapy, and I have a deep love for dragons. So seeing an autistic dragon who's interested in easing pain and suffering... That would be a very cathartic, meaningful experience for me. It's just as easy that Jormag could be an evil autist trope though who's just going to die at the end and I'll end up very depressed.)

    Thank you for your answer, I like what you said in your post. One question: Why do you refer to Jormag as "They"?

    I liked to be surprised. A straight forward vilain story isn't what I like to see. Just like you said. I'm convinced ANet will give a good twist or surprise to the story.
    For some reason I can't shake the feeling Jormag is a good one. And honestly it scares me. Because what if (s)he is an hardcore bad one? What does it say about me?

    @Khandarus.2738 said:
    Na don't care. The dragon is the reason Almora is dead so Jormag is getting suplexed through as many tables as it takes. Even if they are a "good guy". Mostly cause anet seems to kill every character I care about... Except traherne, ooh boy did that feel good.

    Did Jormag kill her? No Bangar killed her.. > @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    It might be a case that Jormag isn't a "good guy" but also doesn't want Tyria to end. There's a very real problem with magic destabilizing and destroying the planet. It's Jormag's home and they probably do want to preserve it- just for selfish reasons. Really the only dragon we've seen try to actively destabilize things is Kralkatorric who was driven to madness. Jormag seems more calculating and might be trying to turn this into more of an enemy mine situation or leveraging the fact that we can't kill them without making things worse.

    Mordremoth did the same. He Destabilized the entire maguuma forest.

    Not quite what I meant, mordremoth didn't contribute more to the destabilizing of the all/magic on Tyria, their death did but Kralk was actively speeding it up by eating the mists. Jormag seems to be more cautious and probably aware of the whole situation with us being unable to kill dragons without a replacement.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Khandarus.2738 said:

    @Cronospere.8143 said:

    @Khandarus.2738 said:
    Na don't care. The dragon is the reason Almora is dead so Jormag is getting suplexed through as many tables as it takes. Even if they are a "good guy". Mostly cause anet seems to kill every character I care about... Except traherne, ooh boy did that feel good.

    Did Jormag kill her? No Bangar killed her.. >

    Jormag was manipulating Bangar.
    It boils down to, do you blame the sword or the person wielding it. Without Jormag influence Bangar wouldn't of killed her.

    Jormag may of been manipulating Bangar to do other things, but Almorra's death is squarely on his shoulders. There are no voices or atmospheric effects to indicate he was being influenced, nor did Ryland seem to be hindered by the voices despite being Ruinbringers opponent in that moment. Ruinbringers reasons for killing Almorra were deeply personal, and he shows little regret for her execution.

  • Jokubas.4265Jokubas.4265 Member ✭✭✭
    edited 10:18PM

    It is interesting that a lot of the bad stuff in this season has been Bangar's fault (even the Frost Legion are created by machines powered by Jormag's blood, not Jormag, as far as I can tell from the meta), and there's a consequence for that, but I never doubted that we might get a reveal that Jormag isn't the real bad guy. My problem is that this totally doesn't absolve Jormag.

    It's tragic that a reputation may have built up around Jormag that is untrue, but it did not get built up arbitrarily. This isn't just humanoids jumping to conclusions either. The Spirits of the Wild made a sacrifice to protect the Norn. If you already have a bad reputation, and then a cult forms that starts killing people in your name, and you say nothing about it, you can't blame everyone else for severely distrusting you (and unless that was one monumental coincidence, Jormag bailed out Bangar with a blizzard, otherwise Bangar's treachery would have been dealt with right away).

    The problem isn't that many of Jormag's whispers haven't been positive. A lot of them are. The problem is that, of course we're not going to trust these whispers that tell us they're totally going to help us and save us, when everyone who claims they're working for them is a murdering jerk. Of course we're going to assume that the people killing in their name are doing so with their blessing if they never deny it.

    I guess I also want to clarify that the reason this bothers me is because it would be a writing problem, not a character thing. If this happens, the way I see it is that Jormag is failing to clear up the misconception so that it's a twist when it's revealed that they're actually good, not because it actually makes sense for a good person to let a blatant misconception fester. Otherwise this whole season could have just started with a whisper from Jormag that they need to meet us. We'd be suspicious, but we'd have had no reason to fight our way there. Bangar would be the wrench in the works instead of the apparent representative.

    Edit:

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:
    You say something and they'll hear something else. They don't listen.

    I know all too well what you mean. It's not the best thread to elaborate so I'll try to make this quick, but it's something that has been getting to me somewhat existentially in the last few years. It's bad enough when you say something that just gets skipped over, or misunderstood, but I started noticing too many direct responses that... weren't direct responses at all. Like, someone would quote me on a website, say "I disagree" and proceed to say exactly what I said, or they'd quote me and just say something so completely unrelated that it made me wonder what they thought I said.

    I think part of the problem is that "neurotypical" doesn't really exist, and that it's as much of a spectrum as anything else, but I definitely don't have the knowledge or words to really articulate this, just my experiences. Even within family I have people that I can more or less discuss things with, and people who, just, no matter what I say, their responses or reactions prove that they did not actually hear anything I said. It's really scary once you start realizing it.

  • Ototo.3214Ototo.3214 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Ototo.3214 said:
    Yeah but we know we're ending up in Cantha somehow and that doesn't seem like a Primordus tie in, to me at least.

    Also, that one section of the Icebrood Saga trailer with the sinking ship feels...very out of place for both Jormag and Primordus.

    I personally thinking they're saving Primordus for last and it'll be more Asura focused
    I've been wrong before though so who knows

    We are going to Cantha... in the next expansion. IBS is, as far as we know, staying in Tyria. IBS really doesn't need to do anything to bring up Cantha, and the Canthan problem could just start out of nowhere. I mean, look at IBS itself. What in LWS4 propped up Jormag as the next big bad? Nothing, we just got a prologue episode "Bound by Blood" and that is what started the Jormag plot. Anet could also make a smaller prologue episode for the Canthan expansion, have them open up the Dominion of Winds for the Tengu celebrating the defeat of the 4th dragon, and then have that set up the return to Cantha.

    We know IBS has like 4 more episodes left, and that they are likely split maps like Bjora/Drizzlewood are, which means two more maps in total, one of which is almost certainly the Jormag fight map ala Dragon's Stand/Dragonfall. So like, I don't see the next map being water/Bubbles/Cantha based when we still have to deal with Ryland and the Spirits of the Wild stuff.

    I do agree that the Primordus story will be tied to Asura stuff, but I think that will happen after the Cantha expansion, which will likely focus on the tyrannical Canthan Empire/Ministry of Purity, and the Canthan LW season/saga, which will be the Bubbles plot.

    That is true, but I will say that we got LWS2 bringing up Mordy to lead into HoT, Balzathar introduced at the end of LWS3 which led into PoF, then the end of PoF bringing up Kralk as an issue to lead into LWS4. Yes, it's not always done like that, LWS4 just ended with the finale of Kralk falling and wishing he had Life Alert, so IBS kinda had to introduce something new. Also want to clarify, I don't actually think we're like...physically going to Cantha until the expansion, I agree that IBS will more than likely all be within Tyria.

    But there are just...idk, a few weird things that stick out to make me think Bubbles. I don't trust Jormag, but the trailer for IBS has Jormag talking like there's some threat that needs to be rallied against and Jormag is offering aid "in the trials to come." Who the heck knows what that means, but the part I mentioned earlier with the ship in that trailer just seems...out of place. That on top of the fact that if we're to go to Cantha, that's way south on the map, with a huge ocean between where we can go currently and it. Will that just be empty space or is it going to be used for...something? Potentially related to an unnamed water dragon? Who knows.

    But that's just me and my tin foil hat. The ship thing, as well as the random centaur slavers bit in the trailer, could just be throwaway things for Jormag to try and make a point. I think part of why I'm suspecting at least something to come up besides Jormag is because of the datamined text for the Confer with Bangar achievement. I suspect, since we can't currently progress that chieve, that they're going to occasionally just throw out there the ability to progress on it, kinda like the current events they've occasionally done. And the very last thing we get off of that chieve will be something to do with "Jormag's Enemy." So I don't necessarily think Jormag will just be gone and dead by the end of IBS unless we kill em then find out there's some other thing Jormag was worried about but still. Doesn't mean it's Bubbles, but between that and the ocean separating us for Cantha I somewhat suspect Bubbles.

    Though, like I said, I've been wrong before. The end of season 3 threw me for a loop and they could do it again here XD
    (but if we get a ton of underwater kitten, Anet, you better revamp underwater combat, I swear)