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Demonic Lore


Shaogin.2679

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So let me start by saying I am somewhat satisfied with where Power Reaper is right now in terms of PvE dps. It is still bottom tier power dps sure, but it isn't bottom tier by a ridiculous margin. We don't provide anything to the group, but as a trade off we are very self sufficient and therefore aren't as reliant on the group for buffs as other classes. It isn't the best place to be and could still use improvements, but it isn't bad either.

Support Scourge could still use some work to give it a more concrete role in experienced groups. As it is right now, the Support Scourge is mainly just there to carry inexperienced players.

Condi Scourge however, is still in a horrible spot. It is an incredibly easy build to play since all of your cooldowns are always visible, but it still shouldn't be doing less dps than support specs. So while playing around on my Scourge in open world content, I noticed Demonic Lore still has a cooldown of 3 seconds per target for applying the burn. As far as I remember, this was implemented for PvP purposes. I really do not understand why this cooldown is necessary in PvE, especially since Condi Scourge dps is already so pathetic.

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Just make boon hate effects interact with defiance (which effectively emulate stability, vigor and a lesser version of resistance). All of a sudden all scourge's utilities will be able to add torment on hit on defiant foes (legitimately increasing it's DPS). Spellbreaker will be able to build it's attacker insight. While hopefully boon corruption can get a bleed out of interacting with defiance (a welcome bonus for core necro/reaper/revenant). Make corrupting defiance give vigor, aegis, stability or protection on feed from corruption and scourge could even benefit from it (you could even imagine a scourge tanking in PvE there, unbelievable!).

I mean, half of the Necromancer's problems in PvE come from defiance, why not just start by fixing it?

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@Dadnir.5038 said:Just make boon hate effects interact with defiance (which effectively emulate stability, vigor and a lesser version of resistance). All of a sudden all scourge's utilities will be able to add torment on hit on defiant foes (legitimately increasing it's DPS). Spellbreaker will be able to build it's attacker insight. While hopefully boon corruption can get a bleed out of interacting with defiance (a welcome bonus for core necro/reaper/revenant). Make corrupting defiance give vigor, aegis, stability or protection on feed from corruption and scourge could even benefit from it (you could even imagine a scourge tanking in PvE there, unbelievable!).

I mean, half of the Necromancer's problems in PvE come from defiance, why not just start by fixing it?

That's an interesting idea. Although that might overtune that minor trait. I'd have to number crunch it.

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@Lily.1935 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Just make boon hate effects interact with
defiance
(which effectively emulate stability, vigor and a lesser version of resistance). All of a sudden all scourge's utilities will be able to add torment on hit on defiant foes (legitimately increasing it's DPS). Spellbreaker will be able to build it's
attacker insight
. While hopefully boon corruption can get a bleed out of interacting with defiance (a welcome bonus for core necro/reaper/revenant). Make corrupting defiance give vigor, aegis, stability or protection on
feed from corruption
and scourge could even benefit from it (you could even imagine a scourge tanking in PvE there, unbelievable!).

I mean, half of the Necromancer's problems in PvE come from
defiance
, why not just start by fixing it?

That's an interesting idea. Although that might overtune that minor trait. I'd have to number crunch it.

You know, the only trait I mention is Feed from corruption and it's a GM trait right? Beside, defiance is a PvE mechanism where boon hate is extremly underpowered.

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@Lily.1935 said:Demonic Lore is fine where it's at. Condi Scourge needs some condi duration increases in a few places and some better traits. I'd have to go through everything again to give my full perspective on the topic though.

Assuming other changes were made to the Scourge then sure, it could be fine. However, my question was why the trait remains in it's current state in PvE given the horrible state that condition Scourge is in right now. The change was made for PvP, but now that things like this are being split, it seems like an oversight issue. If they wish to overhaul Scourge then that would be great, but I've seen no evidence of such intentions and this is a relatively simple change to apply.

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Condition dps Scourge does need a competitive build. Some like to point to Sand Cascade and say barrier-sharing means Scourge should be incapable of anything else.

I still remember Scourge having good dps wearing Viper's equipment before the nerfs designed to tone down WvW. I kind of wish they would delete that game mode. Players just want to zerg, troll each other and collect bags. Activities feel balanced, competitive and more demanding than WvW zerging.

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@Anchoku.8142 said:Condition dps Scourge does need a competitive build. Some like to point to Sand Cascade and say barrier-sharing means Scourge should be incapable of anything else.

I still remember Scourge having good dps wearing Viper's equipment before the nerfs designed to tone down WvW. I kind of wish they would delete that game mode. Players just want to zerg, troll each other and collect bags. Activities feel balanced, competitive and more demanding than WvW zerging.

There is those guys that come on the forum periodically to ask for PK within the PvE area of the game, WvW exist for them. WvW is a small price for tranquility in PvE.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Just make boon hate effects interact with
defiance
(which effectively emulate stability, vigor and a lesser version of resistance). All of a sudden all scourge's utilities will be able to add torment on hit on defiant foes (legitimately increasing it's DPS). Spellbreaker will be able to build it's
attacker insight
. While hopefully boon corruption can get a bleed out of interacting with defiance (a welcome bonus for core necro/reaper/revenant). Make corrupting defiance give vigor, aegis, stability or protection on
feed from corruption
and scourge could even benefit from it (you could even imagine a scourge tanking in PvE there, unbelievable!).

I mean, half of the Necromancer's problems in PvE come from
defiance
, why not just start by fixing it?

That's an interesting idea. Although that might overtune that minor trait. I'd have to number crunch it.

You know, the only trait I mention is
Feed from corruption
and it's a GM trait right? Beside,
defiance
is a PvE mechanism where boon hate is extremly underpowered.

Did I misunderstand? I was thinking that Insidious Disruption would work with that suggestion offering torment on boon removal skills and traits when striking a defiant foe. Which I thought was an interesting idea.

I have my own perspective on boons though being that Enemies, and especially bosses, should have boons that are completely unique to them that can influence the way we fight them which can be removed. I also have opinions about our aggro system which have evolved over the years and have changed with my branching out into other games. But i don't know. I would like the Tank role on the team in Raids and even fractals and dungeons to be a focused on pure tanking as opposed to the support hybrid they tend to be to diversify the roles a but and I feel if the proper balance was put in place, Reaper could make for an extremely fun and effective tank.

But that might be a topic better left for another time.

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@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Lily.1935 said:Demonic Lore is fine where it's at. Condi Scourge needs some condi duration increases in a few places and some better traits. I'd have to go through everything again to give my full perspective on the topic though.

Assuming other changes were made to the Scourge then sure, it could be fine. However, my question was why the trait remains in it's current state in PvE given the horrible state that condition Scourge is in right now. The change was made for PvP, but now that things like this are being split, it seems like an oversight issue. If they wish to overhaul Scourge then that would be great, but I've seen no evidence of such intentions and this is a relatively simple change to apply.

The trait is not too dissimilar to Incendiary Powder on engineer. The burning duration is similar in that both cover their own time and then some with gear. Although Demonic lore aids Torment as opposed to aiding burning specifically. I happen to be a fan of both traits as they're both quality. What I would like to see elsewhere though is some better torment application and duration. For instance I'd like Manifest Sand Shade's torment duration to be upped from 2 seconds to about 3 maybe 4 seconds. 6-8 seconds i feel would be reasonable in PvE and Scourge doesn't really need to be hyper bursty but having that sustained damage over time would be nice.

There are some traits and skills I'd like to see modified. For example, Lingering curse in my opinion, the condition duration should be made Baseline into the Scepter and it should probably be dropped to the Master tier slot while Master of corruption moved to the Grand Master slot with bonuses added to the impacted skills along with the cooldown. I'm not entirely sure what those would be, if added afflicted conditions or increased effectiveness I'm not sure. But Something I'd like to see is scepter be a great weapon on its own without the requirement of taking its grandmaster trait.

Of course given that change, scepter will probably have its duration nerfed in PvP, which would be a shame, but I can't honestly speculate on that as I'm not sure if that would happen. But I would like corruption skills to have a bit more of a Punch to them when traited. I think that would go a long way. Although Blood is power and Plaguelands are our two biggest damage boosts as it is so perhaps that's not the best idea, but I don't know.

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@Vancho.8750 said:

@Funky.4861 said:Remove the duration nerf on epidemic in pve only and allow soft-cc's to have a stronger effect on defiance bars. The epi bounce-nerf was only warranted in pvp modes.Pretty sure it was nerfed because people were stacking necromancers to epi and cheese bosses.

Epi by itself does nothing to a boss. People stacked necros to clear adds from range without disrupting squad damage to the boss too much and as such it's a very niche role. Also, necro has not had a competitive condi build for at least a year; they relied on other classes with higher condi damage so 'stacking' necros is counter-productive after the second.

In my raid static i am not the only necro, yet we use one necro for very few encounters and have used it less because it doesn't earn its slot compared to condi quickbrand or dragonhunter (which are the classes i use most for raids, mainly for composition reasons). At the minute i'm on necro for VG, bandit trio, desmina, MO and that's it; condi qb/ dh for the rest. We used to use necro at Sloth and escort, and for the lols at Sabetha, but it's just outclassed in the damage department by literally every other class since it doesn't offer anything better than our tanks and healers bring.

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Speaking on Feed from Corruption, if they made it so inflicting a condition granted allies the boon equivalent of that condition on a 3s ICD per unique condition, per unique target, it'd allow for some interesting support from Scourge. (Based on Archon from RIFT.)

Bleeding 1 target = Vigor x1 with 3second ICD for bleeding on that single targetBleeding 5 targets = Vigor x5 with 3second ICD for bleeding on all those targets

Could be a little strong though.

Torment durations need boosted on Scourge for it to really stand out.

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