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Hare Spirit of the Wild

Brycar.2651Brycar.2651 Member ✭✭✭
edited August 11, 2020 in Lore

I’m so happy Hare was confirmed as a real Spirit if the Wild. Now we need Bunny Shaman armor

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

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  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Brycar.2651 said:
    I’m so happy Hare was confirmed as a real Spirit if the Wild. Now we need Bunny Shaman armor

    Hare's been confirmed as a real spirit since the launch of GW2.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    Known spirits are:

    • Bear
    • Wolf
    • Snow Leopard (AKA Snow Lynx)
    • Raven
    • Minotaur
    • Griffon
    • Owl
    • Eagle
    • Otter
    • Hare (AKA Bunny)
    • Mink
    • Frog
    • Gorilla
    • Ox (AKA Dolyak)
    • Wolverine
    • Wurm

    The primary ones of Bear/Wolf/Snow Leopard/Raven are well known due to them being prominent in Hoelbrak and starting options for norn characters.

    Minotaur is featured in a particular path for norn personal stories.

    Owl is noted to have died during Jormag's awakening.

    Eagle, Ox and Wolverine are noted to have stayed behind after Owl's death to allow the norn to escape Jormag's wrath.

    Mink and Hare (AKA Bunny) are noted in dialogue in norn personal stories (A notable example is a member of the Sons of Svanir berating another member stating "You're not fit to serve Dragon, go worship Mink or Bunny!")

    Other ones have had little in the way of development or appearance. Which is partially why some people are annoyed with the lack of norn lore in IBS because there's so much that can be done with the undeveloped Spirits of the Wild as well as potential for as yet unknown Spirits to also exist (We don't really know because as mentioned with the focus being on Hoelbrak as the main stead for in-game norn, there's a huge preference for Bear/Wolf/Snow Leopard/Raven to be utilized)

    Not to mention other races that also would worship or honour the Spirits (Such as Hylek and Frog) that could be used for development of Spirits (Instead of just "Look, I'm a Kodan. I'm a man-bear-pig. Koda is amazing!" or "OoooOOOooOOoOoOo Quaggan is Quaggan!!!")

    Cat: Meow.

  • Ogwom.7940Ogwom.7940 Member ✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 IEven though I've seen it mentioned that Gorilla is a spirit of the wild, I just find it slightly absurd since there weren't any historically in the Shiverpeaks in GW1 or GW2.
    Maybe they were there and went extinct a very long time ago?

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    @Ogwom.7940 said:
    @Taril.8619 IEven though I've seen it mentioned that Gorilla is a spirit of the wild, I just find it slightly absurd since there weren't any historically in the Shiverpeaks in GW1 or GW2.
    Maybe they were there and went extinct a very long time ago?

    I think that is very likely. Or they migrated south to Orr long before it fell beneath the waves. There are no living Gorillas anywhere in the game - only corrupted ones in Orr. Given the Norn history is long, an extinct species would account for it. Or they existed much further North, but there is no evidence of that since none came south after Jormag's rise and there is no evidence of any icebrood gorillas

    Or perhaps they all went into the mist....

    Sorry...I'll see myself out...

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ogwom.7940 said:
    @Taril.8619 IEven though I've seen it mentioned that Gorilla is a spirit of the wild, I just find it slightly absurd since there weren't any historically in the Shiverpeaks in GW1 or GW2.
    Maybe they were there and went extinct a very long time ago?

    It's possible.

    But it's also possible that the Spirits of the Wild aren't exclusively found with the norn in the Shiverpeaks.

    It's mentioned that Hylek also revere Spirits of the Wild (Which is likely where Frog originated, since I don't think that there would be too many frogs up in the Shiverpeaks)

    This is another one of those avenues that ANet really hasn't expanded on when they've been shoving kodans and quaggans in our face for "Norn Lore".

    Along with, did any of the Jotun embrace the Spirits? If so, that could account for Gorilla since there's evidence of Jotun occupation of Orr with The Mystic Telescope in Arah. While Orr is the only place Gorillas are found currently in the form of their Risen variants.

    Jotun embracing the Spirits could also be an explaination for their civil war that lead to their downfall (Or the shunning of them by the human gods, depending on which version of history you believe) - Some jotun embracing Spirits of the Wild, while others maintained their belief in the human gods that granted them power.

    Cat: Meow.

  • Ogwom.7940Ogwom.7940 Member ✭✭✭

    That is interesting. I could see that.
    Though I would say frogs could definitely be found in the shiverpeaks, since amphibians tend to like colder temperatures (Caudates specifically), though there are a lot more species in more tropical areas.
    We have quite a lot of frog species up here in Canada, including Tree Frogs. One of the species of frog we have, called a wood frog, can allow there bodies to become fully frozen during the harsh winter, and then they thaw out again for spring. We will also get snakes, salamanders and frogs start coming out of hibernation to breed while it's still very cold and lots of snow during Spring.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ogwom.7940 said:
    That is interesting. I could see that.
    Though I would say frogs could definitely be found in the shiverpeaks, since amphibians tend to like colder temperatures (Caudates specifically), though there are a lot more species in more tropical areas.
    We have quite a lot of frog species up here in Canada, including Tree Frogs. One of the species of frog we have, called a wood frog, can allow there bodies to become fully frozen during the harsh winter, and then they thaw out again for spring. We will also get snakes, salamanders and frogs start coming out of hibernation to breed while it's still very cold and lots of snow during Spring.

    I was more thinking that Shiverpeaks has approximately 800,000 Ice Drakes per 2ft of open water, which would lead frogs to getting eaten pretty quick rather than just the climates.

    Though that said, Shiverpeaks doesn't really have a "Spring" so how well would frogs survive in perma-winter? Especially up in the Far Shiverpeaks (Down south near Lormar Pass, Timberline Falls and Wayfarer Foothills sure, since they seem less perma-frosty)

    Cat: Meow.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ogwom.7940 said:
    Even though I've seen it mentioned that Gorilla is a spirit of the wild, I just find it slightly absurd since there weren't any historically in the Shiverpeaks in GW1 or GW2.
    Maybe they were there and went extinct a very long time ago?

    Spirits of the Wild are bound to the world, not the Shiverpeaks. Gorilla is considered a distant Spirit of the Wild to the norn, indicating that it's presence isn't really felt in the Shiverpeaks.

    Luxons also know of great animal spirits, though they're not called Spirits of the Wild given that's the norn name for them - you have Zhu Hanuku, the kraken spirit, and mention of a crab spirit too (never named); there very well may be a spirit that the Serpent and Turtle Clans are aware of / named after, too.

    Similarly, not all Spirits of the Wild are animals - the norn have made mention of the spirits of seasons, fire (which we also deal with in S3E3), mountains, and darkness. And this may or may not relate to other powerful land spirits, like the Kurzicks' mention of forest spirits, including Urgoz, or a now-removed dialogue of grawl from before LA's destruction about a Shiverpeaks mountain spirit.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:
    It's mentioned that Hylek also revere Spirits of the Wild (Which is likely where Frog originated, since I don't think that there would be too many frogs up in the Shiverpeaks)

    Not quite. The Hylek revere Zintl and Ameyalli (depending on location), and the dialogue of Frog comes from a conversation in Sparkfly Fen between a hylek and a norn bard talking about the bard revering the Spirits and asking "what about Frog?"

    Watl: I don't get it. You sing to Bear, Raven, Wolf and Snow Leopard. What about Frog?
    Frakki: Frog? The only useful thing Frog can teach us is how to catch flies.
    Watl: Yeah. That's really useful. Just imagine a fat, juicy cow fly.
    Frakki: Hmm. I see your point.

    Watl: Hey, Frakki? How come the Orrians hate us so much? Huh?
    Frakki: They don't hate all of us, Watl. Just you.
    Watl: I was afraid of that.

    Frakki: (guitar twangs) Bear, Wolf, Raven, Snow Leopard. (guitar twangs)
    Watl: (guitar twangs) Frog!
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Floodwater_Causeway#Ambient_dialogue

    The norn doesn't deny the existence of Frog, which is telling.

    Along with, did any of the Jotun embrace the Spirits? If so, that could account for Gorilla since there's evidence of Jotun occupation of Orr with The Mystic Telescope in Arah. While Orr is the only place Gorillas are found currently in the form of their Risen variants.

    That telescope was taken to Arah by the Six Gods. Same with the other monuments, according to the dungeon dialogue - they took a lot of various artifacts of the world to Arah's vaults for reasons unknown.

    Jotun embracing the Spirits could also be an explaination for their civil war that lead to their downfall (Or the shunning of them by the human gods, depending on which version of history you believe) - Some jotun embracing Spirits of the Wild, while others maintained their belief in the human gods that granted them power.

    You're taking Thrulnn the Lost's description of the civil war at face value, when Thrulnn is an intentional use of unreliable narrator. The jotun civil war had nothing to do with religious beliefs and the jotun never worshipped gods - or, it would seem, anything at all.

    _The closest thing that the jotun have to "religion" is their firm, avowed belief that their blood is magical—that it is powerful, and akin to the divine. Each clan of jotun reveres their ancestors and can trace their lineage back to some powerful giant-king of lore. Many of the tales of these giant-kings have taken on the feel and tenor of religious myths, and each clan calls to their legendary blood to empower them, see them through trials, and ensure them victory. While it cannot be said the jotun "worship" their ancestors, they certainly attempt to emulate them through conquest, single-minded self-absorption, and personal pride. _
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Savage_Pride_of_the_Jotun

    Elder Thruln: Behold. At the height of our power, arrogance and jealousy led the jotun to civil war.
    Elder Thruln: Our blood is the blood of the mountains. In it, there is power. And so we fought...over blood itself.
    King Bokar: Vraxes! I shall feast on your beating heart! I am king, and this land is mine!
    King Vraxes: You're a pretender, Bokar! Not a king, not a brother. I'll burn this land before I yield it to you.
    Elder Thruln: The giant-kings turned on each other. Brother murdered brother. Son murdered father.
    Elder Thruln: What we did not realize is that with each death, we weakened the very blood we sought to claim.
    Elder Thruln: We tore ourselves to ribbons, scrabbling for glory. Now, we bicker over mere scraps.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Echoes_of_Ages_Past

    Elder Thruln's accounting of the civil war is reinforced by the blog post The Savage Pride of the Jotun linked above, and Durmand Priory dialogue in Dredgehaunt Cliffs. Thrulnn the Lost's story is contradicted in many ways - plus, it wasn't the Six Gods who took away magic, but the Seers when sealing away the Bloodstone. Whether Thrulnn realizes he's telling a false history is unknown, because jotun utilize oral tradition which as we all know has a hard time staying accurate over the generations.

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  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:
    It's mentioned that Hylek also revere Spirits of the Wild (Which is likely where Frog originated, since I don't think that there would be too many frogs up in the Shiverpeaks)

    Not quite. The Hylek revere Zintl and Ameyalli (depending on location), and the dialogue of Frog comes from a conversation in Sparkfly Fen between a hylek and a norn bard talking about the bard revering the Spirits and asking "what about Frog?"

    Yes, but there's speculation that Zintl, Ameyalli and Frog may actually be one and the same.

    Since there are similarities between hylek's reverence of their respective Spirits and norn's reverence of the Spirits of the Wild.

    Especially with the oft repeated "Ameyalli provides!" when norn reverence to the Spirits is thanking them for the animals of the wild they depend on for food and shelter. I.e. One could say "Bear provides!" with the same conviction.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The norn doesn't deny the existence of Frog, which is telling.

    All it is telling of is that norn accept the existence of Spirits of the Wild. It doesn't necessitate the Spirit having originated from them.

    Nor does it really tell that the "Spirit" is in fact, a Spirit of the Wild. Hence Sons of Svanir considering Jormag a Spirit of the Wild and thus referring to her as "Dragon".

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Jotun embracing the Spirits could also be an explaination for their civil war that lead to their downfall (Or the shunning of them by the human gods, depending on which version of history you believe) - Some jotun embracing Spirits of the Wild, while others maintained their belief in the human gods that granted them power.

    You're taking Thrulnn the Lost's description of the civil war at face value, when Thrulnn is an intentional use of unreliable narrator. The jotun civil war had nothing to do with religious beliefs and the jotun never worshipped gods - or, it would seem, anything at all.

    There is currently 2 descriptions of jotun history.

    One where jotun and norn are blessed with magic from the human gods and became powerful and that started the Age of the Giants, with them becoming so powerful that the gods became scared that they'd be overthrown and then they took back their magic and gave it to other races of Tyria. As per Thrulunn the Lost.

    The other where the jotun are said to have become too prideful and sought to expand their tribes out of greed, causing a civil war and the eventual downfall of the jotun. As per Elder Thruln and the Priory.

    Both of these accounts reference in fighting within the jotun populace (Thrulunn mentions that the jotun Giant-Kings became confused and enraged and began fighting each other. Though offers no explaination as to why they became confused and enraged).

    As for how it started, is up in the air. It could be anything. Clash in beliefs. Simple greed. Outside influences. etc.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Yes, but there's speculation that Zintl, Ameyalli and Frog may actually be one and the same.

    Since there are similarities between hylek's reverence of their respective Spirits and norn's reverence of the Spirits of the Wild.

    Especially with the oft repeated "Ameyalli provides!" when norn reverence to the Spirits is thanking them for the animals of the wild they depend on for food and shelter. I.e. One could say "Bear provides!" with the same conviction.

    The similarities are certainly of note, but I don't see how a sun god, a forest god, and an animal spirit could be the same thing.

    It should be noted that Ameyalli is stated by the Commander to also be called Maguuma, and there is a druid dialogue that names Maguuma out as if it were sapient.

    Ameyalli—what we call Maguuma—is providing to be a challenge for us so far.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Itzel_Scout

    Amini Brute: Spirit, your time is over. This grove is home to us now. Leave, remain dead and never return.
    Arboreal Spirit: The Maguuma have loved this land long before your kind were spawned. Depart, and leave me with my husk.
    Amini Brute: Hylek, drive out this shadow. Break the tree. Fight!

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Return_the_arboreal_spirit_to_its_husk,_and_drive_away_the_hylek

    One of my two theories is that Zintl and Ameyalli are powerful nature spirits much like the Spirits of the Wild (the other being that all other gods - Zintl, Ameyalli, Koda, Great Dwarf, and maybe/maybenot Mellagan - are all travelers through the Mists who brought various species with them at various points in the past, much like the Six Gods bringing humans and Forgotten). I would even suspect that Ameyalli is to the Maguuma Jungle as Urgoz is to the Echovald Forest - a powerful forest spirit, similar to the non-animal Spirits of the Wild.

    All it is telling of is that norn accept the existence of Spirits of the Wild. It doesn't necessitate the Spirit having originated from them.

    Nor does it really tell that the "Spirit" is in fact, a Spirit of the Wild. Hence Sons of Svanir considering Jormag a Spirit of the Wild and thus referring to her as "Dragon".

    Wasn't arguing anything about origins? That said, while the Sons of Svanir do consider Jormag a Spirit of the Wild, other norn deny this, which is why it's a bit telling that the norn doesn't deny the existence of Frog in this discussion.

    Now, it could be that the bard is just being polite, or maybe he's just not sure so he won't question it, or perhaps he does think that there is a Frog - especially since rather than questioning Frog, he questions why bother revering Frog instead.

    There is currently 2 descriptions of jotun history.

    One where jotun and norn are blessed with magic from the human gods and became powerful and that started the Age of the Giants, with them becoming so powerful that the gods became scared that they'd be overthrown and then they took back their magic and gave it to other races of Tyria. As per Thrulunn the Lost.

    The other where the jotun are said to have become too prideful and sought to expand their tribes out of greed, causing a civil war and the eventual downfall of the jotun. As per Elder Thruln and the Priory.

    Both of these accounts reference in fighting within the jotun populace (Thrulunn mentions that the jotun Giant-Kings became confused and enraged and began fighting each other. Though offers no explaination as to why they became confused and enraged).

    As for how it started, is up in the air. It could be anything. Clash in beliefs. Simple greed. Outside influences. etc.

    Yes, there are two descriptions. One comes from Thrulnn the Lost and his oral tradition alone, and does, in fact, offer explanation as to why the jotun became confused and enraged (the Six Gods taking their magic away in favor of humanity), and the other comes from multiple sources, including someone who lived the events personally.

    Both of these accounts reference two different reasons for why the infighting began, and two different takes on jotun faith: one claims confusion caused by loss of magic by the gods they once revered, the other claims it was because they became too prideful and greedy and coveted their neighbors land and that they, in fact, had no gods.

    Thing is, usually when you have one source conflicting with several, you take the several not the one. Even more so when devs confirmed Thrulnn was an intentional use of unreliable narrator early on in the game. Much like the Ghosts of Ascalon novel.

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  • Ogwom.7940Ogwom.7940 Member ✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 You are right. The Far Shiverpeaks seem to be in perpetual winter from what we can observe in the games, though The Southern Shiverpeaks are a great spot for Amphibians to survive.

    Also, I disagree with Ice Drakes consuming the frogs, since (1), the body morphology of Drakes and their lifestyle habits seem to resemble that of current day crocodilians. This would indicate that they would be more of an ambush predator and their main focus of prey would be ungulates who venture to the waters edge for a drink, or even skelk or skale.
    The other thing (2) is that there are numerous species of amphibians who do not live in water most of their lives. They only go there to lay their eggs, since they do not have amniotic eggs. They do not require large bodies of water to do so (a drake is a large animal and would require a lot more volume of water), since lots of species only require small vernal pools or puddles or even a small pools of water inside of a plant. Not all amphibians lay their eggs in water though, since there are some salamanders who lay them only on land and would drown if submerged in water for long periods of time. Also, almost amphibians living on land are very well hidden, either living fully underground or under leaf litter, logs or rocks, so it would be much harder for a large predator with a body shape like and ice drake to slither either way through these small places.

  • Brycar.2651Brycar.2651 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Brycar.2651 said:
    I’m so happy Hare was confirmed as a real Spirit if the Wild. Now we need Bunny Shaman armor

    Hare's been confirmed as a real spirit since the launch of GW2.

    According to wiki. ....”Many norn either do not hold Hare in high regard, question her existence, or are simply unaware of her despite her supposedly having a shrine dedicated to her, so few revere her.”

    I personally always believed Hare is a real spirit of the wild. What I meant was now Braham has confirmed in game to quell the doubting Norns.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Now we just need to see Hare's greatest rival, Tortoise.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Brycar.2651 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Brycar.2651 said:
    I’m so happy Hare was confirmed as a real Spirit if the Wild. Now we need Bunny Shaman armor

    Hare's been confirmed as a real spirit since the launch of GW2.

    According to wiki. ....”Many norn either do not hold Hare in high regard, question her existence, or are simply unaware of her despite her supposedly having a shrine dedicated to her, so few revere her.”

    I personally always believed Hare is a real spirit of the wild. What I meant was now Braham has confirmed in game to quell the doubting Norns.

    The way it's been presented is that most animals have a spirit, even if it's not revered. Though I've started to ponder since we have Eagle, Raven, and Owl, does that mean there are other canine spirits, or cat spirits? Like a Tiger Spirit or Fox spirit? I suppose Hawks would fall under Eagle, but maybe not.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Yes, there are two descriptions. One comes from Thrulnn the Lost and his oral tradition alone, and does, in fact, offer explanation as to why the jotun became confused and enraged (the Six Gods taking their magic away in favor of humanity), and the other comes from multiple sources, including someone who lived the events personally.

    Both of these accounts reference two different reasons for why the infighting began, and two different takes on jotun faith: one claims confusion caused by loss of magic by the gods they once revered, the other claims it was because they became too prideful and greedy and coveted their neighbors land and that they, in fact, had no gods.

    Thing is, usually when you have one source conflicting with several, you take the several not the one. Even more so when devs confirmed Thrulnn was an intentional use of unreliable narrator early on in the game. Much like the Ghosts of Ascalon novel.

    Actually, there are three descriptions of the Jotun's downfall. The Mursaat one from Ember Bay.

    IIRC, it describes the fall of the alliance between the races, and the Mursaat's comment on the Jotun was they retreated and purposefully cut themselves off from magic entirely (or almost entirely) to avoid the Dragon's wrath and destruction.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Actually, there are three descriptions of the Jotun's downfall. The Mursaat one from Ember Bay.

    IIRC, it describes the fall of the alliance between the races, and the Mursaat's comment on the Jotun was they retreated and purposefully cut themselves off from magic entirely (or almost entirely) to avoid the Dragon's wrath and destruction.

    The mursaat records don't record the jotun's fall. It does mention that the jotun "refused to rely on magic ever again. They have since remained ignorant, brutish creatures." when the mursaat returned from their retreat into the Mists.

    Which is only depicting the jotun post-fall. The mursaat lore tablets only denote "before the jotun fell" ("The jotun hid from the dragons"; "jotun did not want to fight") and "after the jotun fell" (quoted above), never "during the jotun's fall". The mursaat were apparently MIA when the jotun fell from grace, which makes sense given they fled from the world for a time, or at least did not record it in those tablets.

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  • Jokubas.4265Jokubas.4265 Member ✭✭✭

    Is this saying Drakkar was once similar to the Spirits of the Wild or am I parsing this wrong?
    Braham Eirsson: What are you doing to the Spirits of the Wild?
    Bangar Ruinbringer: What Jormag did to Drakkar. Use its power to control the uncontrollable.
    Bangar Ruinbringer: Elder Dragons want only magic. And the Spirits are nothing but. So I'll convince them to share it wi-

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jokubas.4265 said:
    Is this saying Drakkar was once similar to the Spirits of the Wild or am I parsing this wrong?
    Braham Eirsson: What are you doing to the Spirits of the Wild?
    Bangar Ruinbringer: What Jormag did to Drakkar. Use its power to control the uncontrollable.
    Bangar Ruinbringer: Elder Dragons want only magic. And the Spirits are nothing but. So I'll convince them to share it wi-

    I think Bangar has faulty/mislead intelligence which is skewing his perspective on things.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Jokubas.4265 said:
    Is this saying Drakkar was once similar to the Spirits of the Wild or am I parsing this wrong?
    Braham Eirsson: What are you doing to the Spirits of the Wild?
    Bangar Ruinbringer: What Jormag did to Drakkar. Use its power to control the uncontrollable.
    Bangar Ruinbringer: Elder Dragons want only magic. And the Spirits are nothing but. So I'll convince them to share it wi-

    I think Bangar has faulty/mislead intelligence which is skewing his perspective on things.

    Agreed, faulty information seems most likely. The only way Bangar's words makes sense to me for it to be accurate is if Drakkar was a key to corrupting and using the Lost Spirits' power, and with Drakkar dead Jormag has a much harder time of it. But that would mean Bangar's ploy to feed Jormag the Great Spirits is flawed.

    Having a false perception of the situation isn't surprising, since he's viewing the champion as the one who controls the Elder Dragon rather than the other way around, and saw Drakkar as Jormag's champion in this regard.

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  • Ogwom.7940Ogwom.7940 Member ✭✭✭

    Just curious, what is Nulfastu Earthbound?
    It says he is a fallen "Nature Spirit", though appears as a rabbit before showing his other form, a Vaettir when he's about to attack you.
    He was also found in the Drakkar Lake map, in a cave full of rabbits not too farm from Drakkar Himself.

    If he isn't related to Rabbit Spirit, then what are Vaettirs exactly and are the Essence minions of Jormag (blue, green and red)?
    The essence manipulation are named after positive virtues, where as their skills are not. The skills seem to resemble the names given to Vaettirs in GW1.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ogwom.7940 said:
    Just curious, what is Nulfastu Earthbound?
    It says he is a fallen "Nature Spirit", though appears as a rabbit before showing his other form, a Vaettir when he's about to attack you.
    He was also found in the Drakkar Lake map, in a cave full of rabbits not too farm from Drakkar Himself.

    If he isn't related to Rabbit Spirit, then what are Vaettirs exactly and are the Essence minions of Jormag (blue, green and red)?
    The essence manipulation are named after positive virtues, where as their skills are not. The skills seem to resemble the names given to Vaettirs in GW1.

    A: Nulfastu IIRC is just a general nature spirit/elemental who went dark. Unrelated to Hare or the spirits of the wild. It uses the rabbit form to lure in people to a trap.
    B: The Essences are the stolen virtues from the three trapped spirits. Red is the power stolen from Ox, Green is the power stolen from Wolverine, and Blue is the power stolen from Eagle. The positive virtues are us... stealing it back, in a way.

  • Ogwom.7940Ogwom.7940 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 I don't see how you would know for sure that it is not related to the Spirits of the Wild.
    In an old Arenanet Blog, A Spirit of Legend, Ree Soesbee seems to indicate that the Greater Spirits of the Wild, or rather all the ones animal ones that they consider "friends", are spirits of nature that are embodied in animals.
    She also goes on to say that Spirits of the Wild are not strictly animals. There are ones of Darkness, Mountains, Fire and etc. whcih are all non "sentient" things compared to the type of animals that Norn would revere.

    I know the Essences are stolen Virtues from the Trapped Spirits. But if you look at their skill names, they all seem to be vices, which are similar in name to the Vaettir found in the Far Shiverpeaks in GW1.
    The Vaettir are spirits, just like the Spirits of the Wild, except vaettir are fallen where and therefor their names are named after some specific iniquity. Perhaps they were once types of Spirits of the Wild and had fallen is what I am trying to say.
    It seems that Vaettir just means "Spirit" in Old Norse, but refers more specifically to Nature (including animals), Sea, Mountain and Forest Spirits.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ogwom.7940 said:
    @Kalavier.1097 I don't see how you would know for sure that it is not related to the Spirits of the Wild.
    In an old Arenanet Blog, A Spirit of Legend, Ree Soesbee seems to indicate that the Greater Spirits of the Wild, or rather all the ones animal ones that they consider "friends", are spirits of nature that are embodied in animals.
    She also goes on to say that Spirits of the Wild are not strictly animals. There are ones of Darkness, Mountains, Fire and etc. whcih are all non "sentient" things compared to the type of animals that Norn would revere.

    He is not a spirit of the wild in any relation to the animal spirits. You imply he's related to Hare/rabbit, which is not true. Re-reading it, Nulfastu is merely described as a "great, northern nature spirit" And that he was struck down by the others, his body in one realm and his power in another. So if he was one of the spirits of the wild, he lost that status. Yes there are spirits of action and elements, but Nulfastu is explicitly been struck down by his fellow "nature spirits". His existence also was before the deeper look at the spirits of the wild and the Norn belief system.

    I know the Essences are stolen Virtues from the Trapped Spirits. But if you look at their skill names, they all seem to be vices, which are similar in name to the Vaettir found in the Far Shiverpeaks in GW1.
    The Vaettir are spirits, just like the Spirits of the Wild, except vaettir are fallen where and therefor their names are named after some specific iniquity. Perhaps they were once types of Spirits of the Wild and had fallen is what I am trying to say.
    It seems that Vaettir just means "Spirit" in Old Norse, but refers more specifically to Nature (including animals), Sea, Mountain and Forest Spirits.

    Night Terror, Spirit Nova, and Shattered Psyche? Those don't really sound like vices at all. More like direct effects. They don't really share naming conventions with the Vaettir in GW1, outside the ones that spawn in Xandra's specific quest named Anquish/sorrow/regret. But that's partly because Vaettirs are under the nightmare enemy type and share models with those.

    The Vaettirs in GW1 are named Spectral, Scourge, Mist, and shadow.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2020

    @Ogwom.7940 said:
    The Vaettir are spirits, just like the Spirits of the Wild, except vaettir are fallen where and therefor their names are named after some specific iniquity. Perhaps they were once types of Spirits of the Wild and had fallen is what I am trying to say.

    Vaettir, unlike Nuflastu, are a type of Nightmare. Nightmares are souls that have been twisted and made malevolent - we see this in Xandra's quest in GW1, and again in the Hall of Chains mission where Dhuum turns a few dozen spirits into nightmares before our eyes.

    The Vaettir around Nulfastu, despite their shared model and skills, are the souls of those who Nulfastu killed. As the quoted description below says, Nufastu is "constantly surrounded by the spirits of those he has trapped." The vaettir there are, ultimately, Nulfastu's victims.

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Ogwom.7940 said:
    @Kalavier.1097 I don't see how you would know for sure that it is not related to the Spirits of the Wild.
    In an old Arenanet Blog, A Spirit of Legend, Ree Soesbee seems to indicate that the Greater Spirits of the Wild, or rather all the ones animal ones that they consider "friends", are spirits of nature that are embodied in animals.
    She also goes on to say that Spirits of the Wild are not strictly animals. There are ones of Darkness, Mountains, Fire and etc. whcih are all non "sentient" things compared to the type of animals that Norn would revere.

    He is not a spirit of the wild in any relation to the animal spirits. You imply he's related to Hare/rabbit, which is not true. Re-reading it, Nulfastu is merely described as a "great, northern nature spirit" And that he was struck down by the others, his body in one realm and his power in another. So if he was one of the spirits of the wild, he lost that status. Yes there are spirits of action and elements, but Nulfastu is explicitly been struck down by his fellow "nature spirits". His existence also was before the deeper look at the spirits of the wild and the Norn belief system.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Egil_Fireteller
    It's rather falicious to say it's not a spirit of the wild. Keep in mind there are more Spirits of the Wild than the animal spirits. As explained by Egil Fireteller in GW1:

    "The Norn do not know gods, at least not in the way humans do. But we do revere the spirits of the animals upon whom we depend for food and shelter. There are many such spirits. Bear is the mightiest of course, but Raven, Owl, Wolf, Wurm, and Ox all have their place in the world and in our hearts. While we hunt and slay these creatures, we also praise their spirit, and thank them for their sacrifice. The animals are our brethren; their spirits guide us as we live and hunt."
    "There are more hostile, even malicious, spirits in the world...spirits of the mountains, seasons, fire, and darkness. The animal spirits are our allies against these foes, and we thank them for their aid, singing the praises of all beasts as we hunt. This is the Norn way."
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Egil_Fireteller
    The key I'm referring to is in the second paragraph - that when talking about the Spirits of the Wild, Egil doesn't limit it to animal spirits but also reference "other spirits in the world".

    The description for Nulfastu is such:
    "Once a great, northen nature spirit, Nulfastu descended into the dark arts in an attempt to destroy his brethren and usurp their powers. When his intentions were revealed, the other spirits struck down Nulfastu, binding his incorporeal body to this realm and his spirit powers to the next."
    "Beware! Nulfastu retains great power and should be avoided by all but the most heroic or foolhardy Norn. He can manipulate the minds of the living and is constantly surrounded by the spirits of those he has trapped. The lone survivor of an encounter with Nulfastu reported he appeared as a simple rabbit before wresting control of her mind. "
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Notorious_Foe:_Nulfastu,_Earthbound

    While it is true that Nulfastu has no (known) relation to Hare, and it doesn't seem to be an animal spirit given its appearance (and it would be weird for it to be a spirit of fish), it is a nature spirit which is, ultimately, what the Spirits of the Wild are. Though in GW2 it does seem like the norn and kodan use "Spirits of the Wild" to refer specifically to the animal spirits, given they never reference the Spirit of Fire dealt with in Season 3 Episode 3 as a Spirit of the Wild, though do as a nature spirit.

    The oddity of Nuflastu is that it has a unique name, which is not very norn-like at all. They, and kodan, refer to the spirits by what they represent. In fact, norn refer to the Six Gods by such too per an old interview - they refer to Kormir as "Knowledge", Balthazar as "War", Grenth as "Death", etc. rather by their legit names (shame that upon visiting Kormir, even though they had the charr use the title 'god of knowledge' sarcastically and with proverbial air quotes, they didn't have norn simply caller her Knowledge, or Spirit of Knowledge). It'd be curious to learn what Nulfastu was the spirit of.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah, I read that and correct to He's not related to the animal spirits, and by his description, he's been stripped of his status as a nature spirit due to his actions. I suppose a good question is if Nulfastu is still around in GW2 lol.

    I'd say based around his abilities and description, he was probably a nature spirit of trickery/mischief of some sort.