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The Condition Battle

Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited July 31, 2020 in PVP

I'm posting here because I usually post in the profession forums...because I'm usually discussing a particular profession. But I feel this topic what I will be touching on will be related specifically to PVP/WVW.
I'll start by touching up on what Anet, and most of the playerbase, understands about conditions and what they're supposed to be. Conditions are a damage over time effect (DoT) that remains on a player after applied, dealing damage over the course of a specific period of time, dependent on skill/utility used and extended or decreased based on your/enemy's traits, amulets, sigils, etc. I believe this is proper, and I agree with this philosophy.
However, this is not the case today as it was back in the earlier years of Guild Wars 2. Now, conditions are and can be just as burst oriented as direct damage. To some extent, i agree with this (paying more attention to confusion, it makes sense and is a healthy punishment for just pressing buttons rabidly). But I don't think this should be the case with other types of conditions (burning, I'm looking at you SPECIFICALLY).
This creates an unhealthy environment for the game where, you can build defensively (which you mostly should if you run condition damage oriented builds, being as you need to survive long enough to ramp up that damage through increased stacks of conditions/s) and still be able to completely burst down an enemy player because you also output a ridiculous amount of stacks of very heavy hitting conditions, consistently with each skill use. Basically, you become a tanky bursting machine using a mechanic (conditions) that can not be directly countered like direct damage can be. This is where the dilemma has arisen.

What I am suggesting is this: take a step back in time where burning and poison was capped at only 1 stack (yet still hit pretty hard), and can be extended in duration for using other skills that also applied burning or poison. also, where other skills didn't apply stupid amounts of other conditions on you, and was truly a ramp up over time playstyle that was very rewarding to play if you played it right. This, I believe, was when condition damage was at its greatest moment in its lifetime in this game. And unironically, when it was the most FUN to play.
Many of the changes that can occur to many of the professions currently can be very simple: cut down on stacks of certain conditions output per skill so that it doesn't feel super oppressive, and/or cut down on the uptime of a certain condition/s of a particular skill depending on how many stacks it actually does output (lower stacks output = longer uptime, higher = shorter). Or, take a step back and, for PvP and WvW only, cap burning and poison to 1 cap like before. These changes alone would put many condition builds that are currently overperforming into a more balanced state, without having to rework the entire skill, or even worse; change it. It could save a lot of time, resources, and energy balancing.

Please consider, ArenaNet, if you're reading.

The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

Comments

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    I think the only burst burning build left is condi guardian and it isn't great, i mean not even close to what fire weaver was. The only time i felt pressure by this build was when i was playing LR weaver, any other build with little better cleanse than that deals well with burning guardian. I think all other classes have a healthy burning application.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Power is fundamentally higher burst than condi, always. Your entire premise is flawed. “Burst condi” just doesn’t exist.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Couldn't have posted in the 10 other threads whining about condi in a power meta huh? Typical.

    But it's because it's a power meta that they feel the need to whine against condi, afterall who in it's right mind would spec to counter condi in a power meta? It's obvious that it's unfair to die to conditions in a power meta.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Couldn't have posted in the 10 other threads whining about condi in a power meta huh? Typical.

    crev is still pretty good, and so is necro. those run condi unless you play reaper. you seem a bit salty though. lets discuss.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Power is fundamentally higher burst than condi, always. Your entire premise is flawed. “Burst condi” just doesn’t exist.

    This is actually false. Lets take into account confusion.
    This condition alone is primarily burst. You put a bunch of confusion on a player, and if they use a skill, they take massive amounts of damage. Burning, also, has very high damage compared to any other condition in the game.
    I think you need to learn your conditions.
    And power damage is direct damage. Not saying it's not overtuned, there are still some things that need to be nerfed in the power department. that post will be coming next.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    I think the only burst burning build left is condi guardian and it isn't great, i mean not even close to what fire weaver was. The only time i felt pressure by this build was when i was playing LR weaver, any other build with little better cleanse than that deals well with burning guardian. I think all other classes have a healthy burning application.

    Eh, it's still pretty good. It's "not great" because there are other things that are more overtuned than it currently. However, if we see a nerf to those things, burn guard will rise up and will be the next thing people complain about.
    Also, if conditions are restored to how they were before as well, we could see a decrease in the availability of cleanses as well, both how many conditions cleanses clean, and their respective cooldowns.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    at this point you they can kitten remove every single condition from the game, so you all people shut the kitten up about whining for once.
    they you will have the bunker meta that you ohhh soo desire, but who am I kidding, you people that dont bother to learn will instantly quit and people that actually give a kitten about the game will be left to deal with the kitten

    I agree, I get annoyed at people who just hate conditions to much that they want to see them nerfed to hell.
    I'm not one of those, and this post doesn't promote that at all. What I suggest are what I feel are healthy changes in the department specified here, which is conditions.
    Power damage nerfs and how they should be nerfed accordingly will follow soon after. I'm here at work right now though, so I don't have a lot of time to do so.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Power is fundamentally higher burst than condi, always. Your entire premise is flawed. “Burst condi” just doesn’t exist.

    This is actually false. Lets take into account confusion.
    This condition alone is primarily burst. You put a bunch of confusion on a player, and if they use a skill, they take massive amounts of damage. Burning, also, has very high damage compared to any other condition in the game.
    I think you need to learn your conditions.
    And power damage is direct damage. Not saying it's not overtuned, there are still some things that need to be nerfed in the power department. that post will be coming next.

    I played cmirage mainly, confusion as much of a burst damage as you let it out to be.
    Actual meta cmirage ( not the weird builds I run ) will land at bet 2,5k confusion proc on you when you eat full burst. To compare it to other actual burst skills, 3 procs of such confusion is about as much damage as average barrage from holo will do ( not counting EE )

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Power is fundamentally higher burst than condi, always. Your entire premise is flawed. “Burst condi” just doesn’t exist.

    This is actually false. Lets take into account confusion.
    This condition alone is primarily burst. You put a bunch of confusion on a player, and if they use a skill, they take massive amounts of damage. Burning, also, has very high damage compared to any other condition in the game.
    I think you need to learn your conditions.
    And power damage is direct damage. Not saying it's not overtuned, there are still some things that need to be nerfed in the power department. that post will be coming next.

    I played cmirage mainly, confusion as much of a burst damage as you let it out to be.
    Actual meta cmirage ( not the weird builds I run ) will land at bet 2,5k confusion proc on you when you eat full burst. To compare it to other actual burst skills, 3 procs of such confusion is about as much damage as average barrage from holo will do ( not counting EE )

    you must not have been putting on enough confusion, then. Some confusion procs on me have been upwards of 3k. even still, 2.5k for a skill use is still pretty big.
    And I'm ok with that, since that's the whole point: punishing a player for mindlessly spamming a skill while the confusion is applied. It has apparent counter plays, and is in my opinion healthy design.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Couldn't have posted in the 10 other threads whining about condi in a power meta huh? Typical.

    crev is still pretty good, and so is necro. those run condi unless you play reaper. you seem a bit salty though. lets discuss.

    Crev and necro aren't problematic due to condi damage. They're problematic because you can't kill them in a reasonable amount of time. Problematic builds like this arise as you increase TTK.

  • @Ghos.1326 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Power is fundamentally higher burst than condi, always. Your entire premise is flawed. “Burst condi” just doesn’t exist.

    This is actually false. Lets take into account confusion.
    This condition alone is primarily burst. You put a bunch of confusion on a player, and if they use a skill, they take massive amounts of damage. Burning, also, has very high damage compared to any other condition in the game.
    I think you need to learn your conditions.
    And power damage is direct damage. Not saying it's not overtuned, there are still some things that need to be nerfed in the power department. that post will be coming next.

    It depends on what you call "burst" and really just depends on your reaction time. There is really no condition burst as you can always counter it if needed with condi cleanse or invulnerability if you have the ability to do so. Burst is more like a glass cannon gunflame warrior hitting your for 7 to 8k immediately. There is a difference. Yes 5 to 10 stacks of burning will melt you lol, but normally you should kind of see it coming even if it gets applied you can instantly cleanse it. Tbh it sounds like you just lack condi cleanses in your build or lack fundamentals with how to counter some condi builds, burn guards apply burning very frequently so should be the first condi to cleanse besides vulnerability if they're taking zeal. Simple condi cleanses can easily stop the build up of burning if played smartly. Condi mirages most damage imo comes from torment and confusion, both conditions do a lot less damage if youre not moving and casting abilities, however it seems counterproductive right, so of course you can't just depend on that but you should do that if youre waiting for cooldowns in the meantime to prevent the most damage you can, also confusion wears off very fast, you should be able to sit tight for a few seconds

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Power is fundamentally higher burst than condi, always. Your entire premise is flawed. “Burst condi” just doesn’t exist.

    This is actually false. Lets take into account confusion.
    This condition alone is primarily burst. You put a bunch of confusion on a player, and if they use a skill, they take massive amounts of damage. Burning, also, has very high damage compared to any other condition in the game.
    I think you need to learn your conditions.
    And power damage is direct damage. Not saying it's not overtuned, there are still some things that need to be nerfed in the power department. that post will be coming next.

    Considering I’ve been playing condition builds for years, I think I know my conditions.
    Yes, as you mentioned, Confusion is primarily burst, but ONLY if the person both gets hit by the confusion application AND THEN uses a skill. Additionally, confusion is primarily limited to Mesmer at this point and to a much lesser extent Thief. These are the only classes that are even close to viable with confusion being a big damage source, so if you’re fighting a condition version of these classes you can plan for that and mitigate most of their damage.

    And my point is that power damage is always burstier than condis, full stop. There really is no such thing as “condi burst” because, proportionally, it still takes at least double the length of time it takes to kill someone with power (usually much longer, proportionally, mind you). When you apply the condition it takes 1second before that condi does any damage at all. Not only do you need to get hit by the application but you also need to not cleanse it for 1 second before you even take damage from it. So let’s say you get hit for 10k power damage vs 10 stacks of burning. The 10k power damage is instant; the only counterplay being dodging/blocking etc. 10 stacks burning however is avoidable in all the same ways as power damage, with an additional 1 second window to negate the damage completely. In terms of GW2’s combat flow, condi is absolutely not burst; this is not WoW or FFXIV or SWTOR. Time to kill is completely different in this game than other mmos. In GW2, Condi takes literally double the length of time bare minimum, to kill than power damage does and that’s just a fact. This of course doesn’t include confusion, but that has its own counterplay and as is mentioned previously is incredibly limited as to which classes have access to it.

    Honestly, the biggest issue with condi is that the general playerbase doesn’t build to deal with them or understand how to fight condi classes. It’s a L2P/L2Build issue overall

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Dealing with conditions is a mechanic of it's own and fact of the matter is, if you can't bear the idea of having to trade your health for the peak of the application before cleansing, you are doing it wrong.

    It's fairly common to get people panic cleansing at a mere small stack of burn instead of letting go by itself.

    Take for example Tainted Shackles from Necromancer, should players only clear after the skill is completed and not before, to minimize damage even more you can stand still also and expect a fear because the player wants you to move for damage, make it so you can clear all at once.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I dont play PvP but in WvW 9 out of 10 players run power builds. Condi builds have a place in one spot and and one spot only - 1v1. Thats it. And even in 1v1, there are many competetive power builds that can beat them. As soon as you go over that, the strength of stacking power is vastly more overwhelming than stacking condi and once you reach about 3-4 a single minstrel healer will make any enemy condi effectivly worthless.

    Yet players get so salty when they loose that 1v1 and cry about the condi dominance.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    I think the only burst burning build left is condi guardian and it isn't great, i mean not even close to what fire weaver was. The only time i felt pressure by this build was when i was playing LR weaver, any other build with little better cleanse than that deals well with burning guardian. I think all other classes have a healthy burning application.

    Eh, it's still pretty good. It's "not great" because there are other things that are more overtuned than it currently. However, if we see a nerf to those things, burn guard will rise up and will be the next thing people complain about.
    Also, if conditions are restored to how they were before as well, we could see a decrease in the availability of cleanses as well, both how many conditions cleanses clean, and their respective cooldowns.

    Nope, the build have many flaws and will never be great, it has pressure gaps, so if you can survive the burst you have plenty time to actually kill it, poor mobility and can't 1vx you either a kite god or will die to any plus

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    I dont play PvP but in WvW 9 out of 10 players run power builds. Condi builds have a place in one spot and and one spot only - 1v1. Thats it. And even in 1v1, there are many competetive power builds that can beat them. As soon as you go over that, the strength of stacking power is vastly more overwhelming than stacking condi and once you reach about 3-4 a single minstrel healer will make any enemy condi effectivly worthless.

    Yet players get so salty when they loose that 1v1 and cry about the condi dominance.

    Easily relatable, as an example when you fight a Warrior running Cleansing Ire and Brawlers recovery as a Condition Revenant, their class flow alone simply chews through the entire design offense and defense of it by just playing. Clean the torment, clean the weakness, you have to be really aware of their traits to win encounters.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    at this point you they can kitten remove every single condition from the game, so you all people shut the kitten up about whining for once.
    they you will have the bunker meta that you ohhh soo desire, but who am I kidding, you people that dont bother to learn will instantly quit and people that actually give a kitten about the game will be left to deal with the kitten

    Dont forget resistance runes xd

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭

    Oh look! Could this be another "I got outplayed by a condi build because why bother slotting cleanses" thread?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Oh look! Could this be another "I got outplayed by a condi build because why bother slotting cleanses" thread?

    dont worry these people use mostly meta builds so they have cleanse/resist, they just are incapable of using it properly

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Oh look! Could this be another "I got outplayed by a condi build because why bother slotting cleanses" thread?

    dont worry these people use mostly meta builds so they have cleanse/resist, they just are incapable of using it properly

    I don't use a meta build and I do relatively well using the build I created years ago.
    It was a good attempt.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Oh look! Could this be another "I got outplayed by a condi build because why bother slotting cleanses" thread?

    dont worry these people use mostly meta builds so they have cleanse/resist, they just are incapable of using it properly

    I don't use a meta build and I do relatively well using the build I created years ago.
    It was a good attempt.

    first of all I said mostly which means not all.
    sec of all if you are using a build that you made years ago mb just mb your build is at fault and not entire condition system

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    I dont play PvP but in WvW 9 out of 10 players run power builds. Condi builds have a place in one spot and and one spot only - 1v1. Thats it. And even in 1v1, there are many competetive power builds that can beat them. As soon as you go over that, the strength of stacking power is vastly more overwhelming than stacking condi and once you reach about 3-4 a single minstrel healer will make any enemy condi effectivly worthless.

    Yet players get so salty when they loose that 1v1 and cry about the condi dominance.

    Easily relatable, as an example when you fight a Warrior running Cleansing Ire and Brawlers recovery as a Condition Revenant, their class flow alone simply chews through the entire design offense and defense of it by just playing. Clean the torment, clean the weakness, you have to be really aware of their traits to win encounters.

    I'd argue that's an issue with how strong those specific traits are, and not how weak conditions are. Because they're not weak.
    Also, applying a consistent amount of one particular condition is also not weak. it's just as strong as applying 4-5 stacks of 2-3 other kinds of conditions (besides burn).

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Dealing with conditions is a mechanic of it's own and fact of the matter is, if you can't bear the idea of having to trade your health for the peak of the application before cleansing, you are doing it wrong.

    It's fairly common to get people panic cleansing at a mere small stack of burn instead of letting go by itself.

    Take for example Tainted Shackles from Necromancer, should players only clear after the skill is completed and not before, to minimize damage even more you can stand still also and expect a fear because the player wants you to move for damage, make it so you can clear all at once.

    This is a true statement, though i don't think it fits with what i'm talking about here.
    Can you elaborate a bit on the argument for this?

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Oh look! Could this be another "I got outplayed by a condi build because why bother slotting cleanses" thread?

    dont worry these people use mostly meta builds so they have cleanse/resist, they just are incapable of using it properly

    I don't use a meta build and I do relatively well using the build I created years ago.
    It was a good attempt.

    first of all I said mostly which means not all.
    sec of all if you are using a build that you made years ago mb just mb your build is at fault and not entire condition system

    Now wait a minute here. you were just talking about how most people use meta builds and are just incapable of using the cleanses they have slotted in for conditions, but then say my build is at fault, although i clearly said i do relatively well with said build and it has condition cleanses, both passive and active, in it?
    As well, since when was this thread ever me complaining about conditions? it was started to offer a suggestion towards a solution to better balance.
    You need more help understanding or are you just not salvageable at this point?

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    I dont play PvP but in WvW 9 out of 10 players run power builds. Condi builds have a place in one spot and and one spot only - 1v1. Thats it. And even in 1v1, there are many competetive power builds that can beat them. As soon as you go over that, the strength of stacking power is vastly more overwhelming than stacking condi and once you reach about 3-4 a single minstrel healer will make any enemy condi effectivly worthless.

    Yet players get so salty when they loose that 1v1 and cry about the condi dominance.

    From last I remember, firebrand (focuses on support heavily and on condition pressure secondary) and scourge (condition damage scourge using shades and massive AOE condition attacks) was the meta for a long time, if not still to this day. soooo not sure where you get that condition builds are only good for 1v1 scenarios (the specific scourge build was and is a teamfighting based build that relied on a support to keep it healthy).

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Oh look! Could this be another "I got outplayed by a condi build because why bother slotting cleanses" thread?

    dont worry these people use mostly meta builds so they have cleanse/resist, they just are incapable of using it properly

    I don't use a meta build and I do relatively well using the build I created years ago.
    It was a good attempt.

    first of all I said mostly which means not all.
    sec of all if you are using a build that you made years ago mb just mb your build is at fault and not entire condition system

    Now wait a minute here. you were just talking about how most people use meta builds and are just incapable of using the cleanses they have slotted in for conditions, but then say my build is at fault, although i clearly said i do relatively well with said build and it has condition cleanses, both passive and active, in it?
    As well, since when was this thread ever me complaining about conditions? it was started to offer a suggestion towards a solution to better balance.
    You need more help understanding or are you just not salvageable at this point?

    yeat again, I said maybe. it means that it MIGHT BE, doesnt mean that 100% is. reading and comprehending fam

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    What I am suggesting is this: take a step back in time where burning and poison was capped at only 1 stack (yet still hit pretty hard), and can be extended in duration for using other skills that also applied burning or poison.

    What I am suggesting is that you go back and reread the post detailing why they changed that in the first place. The condition damage system is way better now compared to what it was before. I used to nolife all sorts of endgame for years when this game was young, and among all 8 classes with multiple ascended armor sets on each, not one of my characters had gear with condition damage on it. It was useless. It took the release of HoT, raiding, and the condition rework to change berserker meta.

    Basically, you become a tanky bursting machine using a mechanic (conditions) that can not be directly countered like direct damage can be.

    I swear I don't want to sound rude... but holy cow, this makes you look like you have no knowledge about the basic mechanics of this game. Resistance, vitality amulets, cleanses, condition transfers, condi to boon conversion. Are none of them direct enough?

    These changes alone would put many condition builds that are currently overperforming into a more balanced state...

    You are joking right? Imagine condi-thief, a build that kills you by stacking poison, having its 15+ poison stack burst reduced to one. Same with burn guardian, or condirev and torment. You might be using "balanced" to mean something else however... my guess is "brutally murdered and repeatedly mutilated corpse".

    What is up with the forums lately? Posts asking for the deletion of condition damage are taking over. Are we getting raided by a group of trolls or something?

    You literally sound like an idiot. A really angry one at that. Yet you speak about no knowledge of mechanics and such.
    Seems you also couldn't read too much. I also suggested putting something in to compensate for guardian losing a lot of its burst damage from the massive amount of burn stacks they put onto players at one time, which would still make it a slow ramping up condition play style. I'd suggest reading before you start talking out like you're some kind of relevant source of information for the game and its balance.
    Until you do these things, you won't be getting a different type of response. I don't respond to the brain dead.

    Oh cool. I sucsessfully resisted the urge to report. Have fun with your thread. :)

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Conditions are an interesting mechanic as they have mechanics of it that can punish players, but and experienced player can avoid it. You need to think of it on a level of depth as a more counter damage type as it will only do anything if the opponent doesn’t use cds well, but if it does hit it ignores damage mitigation. So it’s bursty and yet not bursty which imo makes it fairly unique to games in general, but I think it’s far from superior on a deep level or at least after the rework. Because of this it’s almost a l2p issue in top teir play, but insanely op to new players.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    ,but insanely op to new players.

    This is because the game does nothing to very little at all to teach players about conditions.

    PvE is also very power heavy so people never learn. Every time Anet have tried to put condi heavy mobs in people complain because they need to start thinking about things outside what they are used to.

    There is also a certain critical mass of players where conditions become completely irrelevant.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    I dont play PvP but in WvW 9 out of 10 players run power builds. Condi builds have a place in one spot and and one spot only - 1v1. Thats it. And even in 1v1, there are many competetive power builds that can beat them. As soon as you go over that, the strength of stacking power is vastly more overwhelming than stacking condi and once you reach about 3-4 a single minstrel healer will make any enemy condi effectivly worthless.

    Yet players get so salty when they loose that 1v1 and cry about the condi dominance.

    Easily relatable, as an example when you fight a Warrior running Cleansing Ire and Brawlers recovery as a Condition Revenant, their class flow alone simply chews through the entire design offense and defense of it by just playing. Clean the torment, clean the weakness, you have to be really aware of their traits to win encounters.

    I'd argue that's an issue with how strong those specific traits are, and not how weak conditions are. Because they're not weak.
    Also, applying a consistent amount of one particular condition is also not weak. it's just as strong as applying 4-5 stacks of 2-3 other kinds of conditions (besides burn).

    No, it isn't because it's easier to cleanse a single condition build like burn guardian as long as you don't panic cleanse and potato your way into the ground.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    I dont play PvP but in WvW 9 out of 10 players run power builds. Condi builds have a place in one spot and and one spot only - 1v1. Thats it. And even in 1v1, there are many competetive power builds that can beat them. As soon as you go over that, the strength of stacking power is vastly more overwhelming than stacking condi and once you reach about 3-4 a single minstrel healer will make any enemy condi effectivly worthless.

    Yet players get so salty when they loose that 1v1 and cry about the condi dominance.

    Easily relatable, as an example when you fight a Warrior running Cleansing Ire and Brawlers recovery as a Condition Revenant, their class flow alone simply chews through the entire design offense and defense of it by just playing. Clean the torment, clean the weakness, you have to be really aware of their traits to win encounters.

    I'd argue that's an issue with how strong those specific traits are, and not how weak conditions are. Because they're not weak.
    Also, applying a consistent amount of one particular condition is also not weak. it's just as strong as applying 4-5 stacks of 2-3 other kinds of conditions (besides burn).

    No, it isn't because it's easier to cleanse a single condition build like burn guardian as long as you don't panic cleanse and potato your way into the ground.

    I think it is more of TTK issue with it now, before the big patch it usually died before the condition cleanses were out, but now it has easier time resetting, and it can reach critical mass consistently. Also the current meta sidenoder is condition rev, core condi necro is meta and even after the revert scourge is back and more annoying then ever, so any type of single conditions build will work ,since the rest of the team has enough cover conditions and ways to burn condition cleanses.
    It was probably kept away by condi rev since it could just let the burn guard stack its burning and then copy it to him, but since the last patch that came with a nerf to rev i keep seeing more burn guardians.
    Is still preferable to run Holo as a "roamer"(we know its good in any role), but if there are changes to it on a later date we will see more guardians taking the spot.

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭

    Dying to a burning guardian....This shouldn't happen anywhere above g+....