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my beef with core necro

law.9410law.9410 Member ✭✭

I really like the play style of core condi necro but I have some issues with it which I hope to share with you today:

  1. Seemingly, developers are pushing core necro into being a tank which I feel is a mistake. The evidence of this is in the last few balance changes which buffed defensive traits but laid down heavy handed nerfs to corruptions and doom of course. Core necro is more fun as a high risk/high reward class that relies on clever, strategic use of spectral walk and wurm to stay alive. Of all classes, playing necro should test your inter-class knowledge the most, so that you know when to corrupt, and when to burst them with condis. You active defense is pretty much solely comprised of two dodges so you have to use those dodges with great care. Tank necro doesn't do any of these things, and pretty much just... exists. To make a long story short, playing a tank core necro is not fun to play and probably not fun to play against! Core necro should be the most strategic class, not a walking punching bag for Pete's sake!

  2. This is kinda similar to point 1 but here goes: the tankier necro gets, the more it relies on passive, trait based sustain instead of dodges, and mobility. This is a big no no. Once again, this is not fun to play and not fun to play against!

  3. If I had to choose between doom with cast time + fear damage and instant doom + NO fear damage, I'd pick instant doom plus NO fear damage! Necro needs instant doom to interrupt heals, it' s major part of the game plan! Is instant CC balanced? NO! of course not! but every class has MULTIPLE unfair mechanics (hello steal). The only heal you can interrupt with the new doom is the NECRO heal, oh the irony! Nerf our sustain all you want, but make us scary, I don't wanna be a walking sandbag!

Comments

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @law.9410 said:
    I really like the play style of core condi necro but I have some issues with it which I hope to share with you today:

    1. Seemingly, developers are pushing core necro into being a tank which I feel is a mistake. The evidence of this is in the last few balance changes which buffed defensive traits but laid down heavy handed nerfs to corruptions and doom of course. Core necro is more fun as a high risk/high reward class that relies on clever, strategic use of spectral walk and wurm to stay alive. Of all classes, playing necro should test your inter-class knowledge the most, so that you know when to corrupt, and when to burst them with condis. You active defense is pretty much solely comprised of two dodges so you have to use those dodges with great care. Tank necro doesn't do any of these things, and pretty much just... exists. To make a long story short, playing a tank core necro is not fun to play and probably not fun to play against! Core necro should be the most strategic class, not a walking punching bag for Pete's sake!

    2. This is kinda similar to point 1 but here goes: the tankier necro gets, the more it relies on passive, trait based sustain instead of dodges, and mobility. This is a big no no. Once again, this is not fun to play and not fun to play against!

    3. If I had to choose between doom with cast time + fear damage and instant doom + NO fear damage, I'd pick instant doom plus NO fear damage! Necro needs instant doom to interrupt heals, it' s major part of the game plan! Is instant CC balanced? NO! of course not! but every class has MULTIPLE unfair mechanics (hello steal). The only heal you can interrupt with the new doom is the NECRO heal, oh the irony! Nerf our sustain all you want, but make us scary, I don't wanna be a walking sandbag!

    I think they are pushing both core and scourge in the tank position, only Reaper is not a total brick in the meta,since it looses too much damage if it tanks up and ends up total punching bag and even then it was pushed by the patches in a more bruiser type position.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Core necro and scourge are stat checks. You either have enough damage/cc/sustain to get them or you dont. There is some "skill" involved but its more like pressing buttons in right order of importance, since nothing is worth stowing. And as necro you are gated by cast times and not cooldowns.
    They made class mechanic revolving around second health bar that fills itself pretty much on its own, what a great design.
    Reaper is much stronger IMO the core/scourge but I find it more fun to fight against. Their mistakes are punished more and they punish your mistakes more.
    Its not like with core/scourge where the fight plays itself and you watch it happen half asleep.

  • Aktium.9506Aktium.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @law.9410 said:

    scourge in the tank position

    Nah. I played the bunkery scurg build up to top 40-ish on EU and stayed there for a dozen or so games. It more or less died the moment they nerfed signet of locust recently since that was the only thing really making blood bank worthwhile. Transfusion is just a terrible alternative these days.

    The best build for scurg now is probably condi actually.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aktium.9506 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @law.9410 said:

    scourge in the tank position

    Nah. I played the bunkery scurg build up to top 40-ish on EU and stayed there for a dozen or so games. It more or less died the moment they nerfed signet of locust recently since that was the only thing really making blood bank worthwhile. Transfusion is just a terrible alternative these days.

    The best build for scurg now is probably condi actually.

    I think the idea was to run scourge as a support but the moment people got whif of "i can tank up and bunker with this" they had to start nerfing stuff.
    I think Arenanet has real problem with executing their ideas, they imagined that they can make support necro, but when they released it it was the most powerful damage dealer in pvp(and PVE for a shortwhile). Druid was supposed to be team healer, nope sidenode bunker.
    I think is more of an issue that elite specks end up versatile instead of specialized at something.

  • Aktium.9506Aktium.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Aktium.9506 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @law.9410 said:

    scourge in the tank position

    Nah. I played the bunkery scurg build up to top 40-ish on EU and stayed there for a dozen or so games. It more or less died the moment they nerfed signet of locust recently since that was the only thing really making blood bank worthwhile. Transfusion is just a terrible alternative these days.

    The best build for scurg now is probably condi actually.

    I think the idea was to run scourge as a support but the moment people got whif of "i can tank up and bunker with this" they had to start nerfing stuff.
    I think Arenanet has real problem with executing their ideas, they imagined that they can make support necro, but when they released it it was the most powerful damage dealer in pvp(and PVE for a shortwhile). Druid was supposed to be team healer, nope sidenode bunker.
    I think is more of an issue that elite specks end up versatile instead of specialized at something.

    I mean Blood Sage was up there as a good support with its focus on ressing. All they had to do was lower the damage a bit and make sure you couldn't cover a ress with stability as well when you ran it. Now Transfusion and Ritual of Life are kinda in the same camp as the 300s cooldown passive proccs.

  • felix.2386felix.2386 Member ✭✭✭

    my beef with core necro is that certain fear lasts forever

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My beef with core necro (well, necro in general) is where balance ended up putting him.

  • law.9410law.9410 Member ✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    Core necro and scourge are stat checks. You either have enough damage/cc/sustain to get them or you dont. There is some "skill" involved but its more like pressing buttons in right order of importance, since nothing is worth stowing. And as necro you are gated by cast times and not cooldowns.
    They made class mechanic revolving around second health bar that fills itself pretty much on its own, what a great design.
    Reaper is much stronger IMO the core/scourge but I find it more fun to fight against. Their mistakes are punished more and they punish your mistakes more.
    Its not like with core/scourge where the fight plays itself and you watch it happen half asleep.

    Your comment was fueled by a lack of understanding. I don't blame you, as I too, saw the necromancer in a bad light before I started playing it. Passive shroud generation comes from traits that quite a few people didn't take pre-patch. Please don't let the current meta necromancer taint your view of the class. Staff skills regenerate shroud when coupled with a trait that many take, but hey, we need some regeneration eh? All of the staff skills have a different animation and have a 3/4 second cast time! If you dodge staff 4 after they use staff 3, you can avoid the weakness and staff 5 has a very clear animation. When it comes to scepter, shroud regeneration is coming from scepter 3, it has a 3/4 second cast time. As for the shroud itself, look out for dark path, and try to break the chains to avoid the immobilization (600 range).

    When it comes to the current meta necromancer, you're preaching to the choir. The core class design however, is one of the most honest specs in the game, don't get it twisted.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @law.9410 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    Core necro and scourge are stat checks. You either have enough damage/cc/sustain to get them or you dont. There is some "skill" involved but its more like pressing buttons in right order of importance, since nothing is worth stowing. And as necro you are gated by cast times and not cooldowns.
    They made class mechanic revolving around second health bar that fills itself pretty much on its own, what a great design.
    Reaper is much stronger IMO the core/scourge but I find it more fun to fight against. Their mistakes are punished more and they punish your mistakes more.
    Its not like with core/scourge where the fight plays itself and you watch it happen half asleep.

    Your comment was fueled by a lack of understanding. I don't blame you, as I too, saw the necromancer in a bad light before I started playing it. Passive shroud generation comes from traits that quite a few people didn't take pre-patch. Please don't let the current meta necromancer taint your view of the class. Staff skills regenerate shroud when coupled with a trait that many take, but hey, we need some regeneration eh? All of the staff skills have a different animation and have a 3/4 second cast time! If you dodge staff 4 after they use staff 3, you can avoid the weakness and staff 5 has a very clear animation. When it comes to scepter, shroud regeneration is coming from scepter 3, it has a 3/4 second cast time. As for the shroud itself, look out for dark path, and try to break the chains to avoid the immobilization (600 range).

    When it comes to the current meta necromancer, you're preaching to the choir. The core class design however, is one of the most honest specs in the game, don't get it twisted.

    sorry to break it out to you but I play necro. And if you knew about the class you would understand that most of their shroud gain is PASSIVE and cant be stopped.
    marks triggering gives 3%. you dodge the mark? cool, doesnt kitten matter, they get 3% anyways. In one staff swap they will place 5 marks + 1 from dodge for 6 total, thats 18% LF. They will get 7% from fear? is it passive? kind off, you need to land a fear, but its easy as kitten when you have aoe fear with no telegraph and another with 0,25s cast time... + corrupting stab. You will ALWAYS land fear, so that cant be stopped. Hmm whats next? ah yes ofc. Spectral walk! eats 5 condis gives 20% LF, cant be stopped.... Im seeing a pattern here.
    Ah yes, Unholy Martyr, leaving shroud consumes 3 conditions. Gives 3% per condi... nothing you can do to stop that, unlucky another 9%.
    Flash worm -> 10%, this one has SOME counterplay, you can kill it. But its not that you just do during a fight, you fight necro and one of your allies just might happen to find their worm and kill it, not very realistic.

    Lets add it up
    9% from unholy martyr
    20% from spectral walk
    18% from marks
    7% from fear trait
    10% from worm
    9%+20%+18%+7%+10%=73%
    Multiply all that by 1,1 due to extra lf gain from traits for juicy 80% shroud that has almost no counterplay.
    Necro is strong, boring, binary and a stat check. There is a reason why it has 1/5 difficulty in gods of pvp.
    btw god bless reaper, its fun to fight against and good for the game, while still some of not most of those apply to it I can respect reaper since it takes much more effort to pilot properly and doesnt rely on brainless shroud tanking.

  • Brimstone Jack.3462Brimstone Jack.3462 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm having fun playing low level ranked with a minion scourge. And core nec's been nerfed to kitten. Still competitive, still hella simple, but how's it doing in the top 10?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Brimstone Jack.3462 said:
    I'm having fun playing low level ranked with a minion scourge. And core nec's been nerfed to kitten. Still competitive, still hella simple, but how's it doing in the top 10?

    good?
    still one of the best builds out there, if you took all the build in existence its propably in the top ~10-15