Elite spec Speculations and desires — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Elite spec Speculations and desires

Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

Kinda on the back foot in discussion at the moment it seems but I'd like to talk about this as speculation and seeing what others desire is a fun topic. I'd like to discuss what people would like to see. If its based on What theme you want to see or what you want mechanically, discuss both. I'm going to list some general ideas of what I'd like to see for each of the classes.

Warrior

For warrior what I'd like to see is something I personally wouldn't like to play but I know people would enjoy. I'd like to see a tank elite spec. Something to really push them as one of the classes to pull and hold aggro. I preface this with that I feel GW2's aggro system should be changed from a focus on toughness to a more threat generation system in which all skills either generate threat or decrease threat so that a tank has to dedicate themselves to building threat which I feel warrior would be right at home with. Which could be fun to have warrior have a adrenaline skill that generates a lot of threat and causes taunt. However, if the system was changed, I could see Spellbreaker filling a tank role very well and I'd be pretty happy to have that on my team.

Another option I'd like to see is perhaps a war mage type spec which converts adrenaline into spell like abilities the warrior can use to strike foes with bursts of damage. Maybe that's a bit out there, but i almost never play warrior so I'll just say I'd much prefer to hear what warrior mains or off mains want as opposed to me who honestly probably wouldn't touch the class.

Guardian

Guardian its going to be much the same as warrior. I'd like to see them also get a tank elite spec. I'd prefer them to be a bit worse at holding aggro but offer a little bit of support, no more than normal guardian but letting them mix a little without the heavy support tanking we've had in the past. So something more akin to a paladin or cleric you'd see in DnD. Giving them some form of cover abilities to aid allies along with their normal cover abilities.

Revenant

Revenant I'd honestly like to see a high Melee power DPS spec. Something that serves Melee combat really well, so giving them something like a greatsword and channel, say, a Norn or tengu legend could be quite good. It could be interesting if they got some form of ability to swap your weapon skills based on your attuned legend as well as your utility skills by using your F2 ability, but that might be a bit complex. But that could be unique as you gain a whole host of abilities. I really like Revenant and it would be nice to see their Melee prowess served much better by its elite spec than it has been in the past.

Ranger

A lot of people will probably disagree with me on this, but I would really like to see a Pack leader elite spec where you have a small pack of Pets of the same species to fight your foes for you. A heavy ranged focus elite spec that can't swap pets, but rather gains command skills or something like that that allows you to act as a sort of Control/support spec. It would be an interesting change of pace for them that could allow for some unique shenanigans. There is the issue with pet swapping, so i'm not too sure. I'd go for scepter+focus combo for this spec.

I like Ranger, I don't get to play them much since I like Druid and our guild is filled with druid so I often have to play DPS which I don't have proper gear for and its doesn't have my play style. But I'm sure some ranger players have some way better ideas than me.

Thief

Thief has a lot of DPS as it is. So yet another DPS spec might be a bit more of the same. This isn't a problem per say, a DPS condi spec that focuses on poison could be really cool and I'd be on board with that as I'm sure some thieves would be. One sort of spec I would like to see for thief is a sort of Shadow mage support spec that specializes in unique shadow magic that allows allies to flank enemies and offers them the ability to teleport enemies. There isn't a reason that a condi spec and a shadow mage spec couldn't be the same spec, but it was an idea I would like to see. For weapons I would like to once again see scepter/focus. Thief has had the unfortunate habit with their elite specs giving them weapons which don't give them dual skills. Thief getting a tone more dual skills would be really nice in my opinion.

I'll address the spec a lot of players want, which is the assassin. And you know what? Fair! Having an off hand sword with main hand sword sounds cool enough. The big issue I see with it is that it doesn't really add much to thief or change anything as Thief is almost completely superior to GW1 Assassin. Well, except for the Shadow form tank assassin, but I don't think that's really what people would desire. Unless you would? IDK, let me know.

Engineer

Engineer, my second love, I have a lot I'd like to see with Engineer. But I do feel that Engineer absolutely needs to have a ranged spec. Both Scrapper and holosmith are both melee specs with holoforge being a melee weapon swap ability. It would be nice to see a Elite spec that Focuses on Minions... Yeah I know people don't like AI stuff, but boy do I love the idea of having my Golemmancer with a staff that shoots lasers. Send in minions which could have more versatility than necro minions due to the Toolbelt skills. Alternatively I wouldn't be opposed to having an elite spec that completely changes how the toolbelt works. But I digress.

A chemist spec could be interesting as well but I'd prefer elixirs be reworked into something more interesting and useful before this. But Chemical arrows could be fun with a longbow or short bow.

Elementalist

With elementalist we have the Overcharge sorta support spec, the fusing elements spec, and the one I'd like to see is the specialist type spec. I'd like to see an elite spec which removes Elementalist from being able to swap attunments but rather the F1-4 skills become Elemental spell type abilities which can enhance whatever element you're currently locked into. You'd still get the attunment swap and for traits if you're, say, locked into fire skills and you use the Air skill for the air traits it'll be as though you are in air but the reduced cooldown on the skills wont occur. But I wouldn't take swapping away without giving something else in return. I'd also like to see this sort of spec gain weapon swap.

I'm a simple girl at times. Sometimes I just want to throw a fireball. I've also heard people talk about the desire of having a 5th element. Which I would be down for for sure.

Necromancer

For the necromancer, this is probably the one I have the most to say about since she is my main. I wont say too much though since there's just WAY WAY too much I actually want and none of it I want on a single spec. So to put it in perspective, I'd like a proper healer spec, so like a shaman with Spirits. I'd love to gain a Sort of spectral shroud which gives me access to primarily supportive abilities that allows me to properly heal people as opposed to the barrier priest the scourge is. It wouldn't replace the scourge but offer a different role. i've made some older posts about that but we'll move on. Another spec I'd love to see is the Minion Master elite spec where they replace their shroud with conjuring a decent number of minions through skill 1 and use the other 4 skills as a means to command them into battle. Having a shield with that spec would be nice, but I'm warming up to the idea of a hammer. Lastly there is the Highly self damaging Blood thirsty Vampire spec that I'd like to see that sacrifices large chunks of their own health to modify their DPS giving necromancer a proper DPS spec that is both high risk and high reward.

Mesmer

Mesmer is one of those classes I want to love, but I struggle to enjoy it as much as I did in GW1. This issue I have is more because of its similarities to Assassin and Thief because I feel its a bit more Melee and tricksy than controlling and tricksy. So My personal preference for a Mesmer elite spec would be to push an Elite spec that is far more in line with the Guild Wars 1 builds the mesmer was famous for. I've made Posts about a Siren elite spec which is a DPS and control spec which could change the shatters into Ground Target AoE short lasting Hex like effects. Or even converting the Phantasms into these AoE hex like abilities. I like the idea of having the ability to create these Hex like abilities as well as just having a Field control type spec that really embodies the idea of Mass Hysteria. Covering a point for a short duration with an AoE hex like ability could be really fun. Punishing foes for daring to look funny at you.

These are sorta the things I'd like to see. What about you? What would you like to see?

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Comments

  • Kaizer.8261Kaizer.8261 Member ✭✭
    edited August 2, 2020

    I main Engi and i agree with you, we need a new ranged Elite spec.

    Yet, what i had in mind for Engi isn't exactly a ranged spec, but something related to "Chemical Warfare", and since Engi doesn't have much of weapon variety, i thought of giving it Axes or Daggers on Main and Offhand and access to Dual Wield skills like Thieves!

    I think it would be really fun to play with, specially if the spec was focussed on being a Condi Support, having the dual effect of healing/boosting yourself and allies while applying condis the enemies nearby. Also, give it a nice interaction with the Dodge skill, making it unique like Daredevil and Mirage's dodges! Something like instead of dodge-rolling you release a mist of chemicals, evading attacks while applying condis to enemies nearby. You could even upgrade it with traits by making it apply regen to allies nearby, or apply more condis.

    There's a lot of possibilities and ideas you could make with a class like that.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2020

    Golemancer in general seems to be a fairly popular suggestion for the engineer, but I really hope it doesn't happen.

    I don't see much benefit in adding another AI minion type to engineer, especially since these are usually not allowed to be good in the game. How many years have our turrets stayed in the dumpster now? I would prefer to rework turrets instead of giving us another AI type. Especially since they already experimented with giving engineer another AI minion type, gyros. And it failed miserably to the point that they finally listened to the players and reworked them into wells.

    I also don't really like the flavor that a golemancer would come with. Golemancy is primarily Asuran, which I personally would prefer not to go for right after holosmith. In the lore, holosmith might have been a human invention, but in general holomancy is Asuran technology. And if you look at holosmith, then it really feels alot like it is tailored towards Asuras.

    Hell, you even mention that you want a staff that shoots lasers. Holosmith already has been all about lasers, why double down on that? This is actually one of the major problems I have with staff as a weapon choice.... Most suggestions for an engineer staff I have read so far are either combining it with electricity or lasers. And exactly these 2 have been the themes of our previous elite specs, scrapper is about electricity, holosmith is about lasers. Seems like people want to repeat the themes we already had simply because they didn't like how Anet implemented these thematics for engineer so far.

    I don't get why golemancer gets suggested so often, tbh. It doesn't really add something new to the spec, just double up on themes which are already there.... kitten, you can even already summon a golem with the Asuran race skills.

    But enough about me ranting about golemancers, now I want to suggest my own ideas for elite specs.

    Warrior
    I personally would like to see a "commander" elite spec. Someone who rallies their allies in battle and support them in different ways to victory. Weapon choice would be a staff with a polearm skin for warriors, their utility skills could be preparations. They are preparing the battlefield strategically to give their allies advantages in the fight.

    Guardian
    Inquisitor could be an interesting take of the guardian archetype in my opinion. It would be a bruiser elite spec, focused on surviving among the evil hoards. They are using punishment skills and get access to the fear condition to cc lock their enemies. Weapon choice would be offhand sword.

    Revenant
    My suggestion for this class would be the ritualist. Ritualists have alot in common with revenants and I would like that class to see their revival in them.
    They are also bruiser specs with alot of cc, especially roots to bind enemies with ghostly chains. Their utility skills would be conjured weapons, imitating the weapon spells which ritualists used to enchant the weapons of their allies. Their weapon would be a scepter.

    Engineer
    Engineer is my main and what I would like to see for them is a plaguedoctor elite spec. They would improve engineer's ability to deal condition damage and provide healing and boons for allies, like firebrand and scourge have been for their classes. They can double wield maces (considering that engineer has the smallest weapon pool, I think we could really use this) and are using corruption skills, sacrificing small portions of their health for great effects.

    Lorewise, their ancestors were scientists in the rows of the Am Fah, which experimented on human bodies with the magical plague in the past. Plaguedoctor's kept experimented with vials of disease and different dangerous chemicals to increase their allies power.

    I even created an icon for that elite spec idea.

    Ranger
    The name I have chosen for that elite spec is "stampede". Like Lily's concept, this elite spec will be able to use 2 pets at the same time, but with decreased stats to compensate. They are using hammers, the hammer would have a skin looking like the head of a rhinoceros. They are bruisers using the physical skills warriors and daredevils are using to knock down enemies constantly while their animal allies are burying their teeth in them.

    Thief
    Oyabun is the name I have chosen, it is the title of the bosses of the yakuza. Gangs were fighting over power in the city of Kaineng in the past (Am Fah vs Jade Brotherhood), it is still going on. As an oyabun, thief's become the leaders of their own little gang and can summon gang members for different tasks. I want thief to have summons simply because thief is one of the few classes which doesn't already have the minionmancer playstyle. They are using torches to signal their gang and their utility skills are called "gangsters".

    Elementalist
    They become purists. They have to chose 2 of their 4 elements to focus on and lose access to the other 2 elements, but they will get alot of power for these skills based on the elements they have chosen. Mostly that spec will focus on dealing damage. They are an order of elementalists training in temples, to strengthen their concentration they are practicing archery, which made the longbow their weapon. This weapon represents both the concentration and precision they need to truly master the elements they have chosen to focus on. Their utility skill type are either mantras or meditations.

    Mesmer
    They are called sirens. They are bruiser specs with access to stability (dancing theme) and hard cc like daze. They use shortbows which are looking like harps and their utility skills are shouts, but they are flavored as songs for them.Their shortbow uses alot of PBAoE skills in the middle of the enemy.

    Necromancer
    Personally, I would use the crypt warden as the elite spec here. It is a bruiser elite spec that will give necromancers access to blocks by using bones. Lorewise, they are an order of necromancers dedicated to protect the tombs of Cantha's ancient heroes. As a symbol of their protective duties, they are wielding shields. Their utility skills could be traps, which will created bone spikes coming from the ground to impale enemies, creating bone walls to protect allies behind them, or undead hands coming from the ground to hold enemies in place.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    Warrior

    For warrior what I'd like to see is something I personally wouldn't like to play but I know people would enjoy. I'd like to see a tank elite spec.

    Warrior already has a tank E-Spec though with Spellbreaker...

    @Lily.1935 said:
    These are sorta the things I'd like to see. What about you? What would you like to see?

    For what I want... It doesn't always line up with what the profession needs...

    Warrior
    They have Tank (Spellbreaker) and DPS (Berserker) and so they're missing a Support spec. Something that can complement their Shout support and Bannerslave builds.

    I'd suggest something like "Marshal" getting Command skills similar to Ranger's ones, but these provide bonuses for their allies rather than Ranger's providing to their pets/themselves (While merged). Adrenaline is replaced by "Strategem" which is built much more slowly than Adrenaline from normal attacks, but is generated in large amounts when performing or enabling Combo procs and the Burst skills provide boons to allies.

    Weapon would be a Staff (With a skin to look like a banner) and would utilize Marks that produce positive effects for allies and would simulate them being able to direct their allies in battle.

    Guardian
    They have DPS (Dragonhunter) and Support (Firebrand) and so they're missing a Tank spec.

    I'm thinking something like "Martyr" getting Corruption skills which will provide a positive and negative effect based on what they do (I.e. A skill that costs their own life, but can heal and ally or damage an enemy. A skill that removes condi's from self and either a target ally or the boons from a foe but removes boons on self etc).

    Class mechanic now procs on being attacked rather than attacks dealt (F1) or over time (F2/F3) - This includes Evaded/Blocked attacks. Each proc will build up a Faith resource which can be used to activate F skills to obtain a spirit weapon and gain new skills. F1 grants a MH Sword that provides nice damage and some Burn. F2 provides a Staff which allows for supporting allies and debuffing enemies. F3 provides a Shield that allows for blocking, protecting allies and CCing enemies. It will be possible to toggle both F1 and F3 on at the same time, but for increased Faith costs.

    Weapon will be OH Dagger and would have an ornate, ceremonial looking skin. Skills would both have a Flip Skill that allows a second, more potent attack with an added cost to it (Health/boons)

    Revenant
    Has Tank/Support (Herald) and DPS/Support (Renegade) and is missing a full DPS spec with a focus on Power damage.

    I'd suggest something like a norn based Legend and using a Greatsword. With 2 possible routes for its design depending on whom is chosen.

    For someone like Svanir, there could be a lot of Ice related attacks and skills (Like that super OP attack the Svanir with GS's use that sends out a barrage of ice that does like 10 kajillion damage) with bonuses against chilled targets.

    For someone like Aesgir, it could utilize a change to the mechanic where you can only have 1 legend equipped, but your F2 is a transformation into a themed Spirit of the Wild for the Legend (Something like Aesgir = Bear, Shiro = Wolf, Jalis = Ox or Minotaur, Mallyx = Raven, Ventari = Owl) with Legend swapping effects occuring when transforming.

    Ranger
    Has Support (Druid) and DPS (Soulbeast) and is missing a Tank spec.

    I'm not sure what I'd suggest for such a thing though to be honest.

    I'd rather get a ranged DPS spec for Ranger personally, something that could pair up with Longbow + Marksman.

    As such, I'd suggest "Gunslinger" with dual Pistols that have bonus range (Like how their LB has 1500 range instead of 1200, I'd suggest their Pistols have 1200 range instead of 900). Pets would be stronger, but limited in duration (I.e. You eschew your ability to control your companions to focus on your marksmanship) so you summon them for a short period of time and then they are automatically stowed.

    Utilities would be Tricks and provide ways to mess with enemies and keep them at a distance.

    Thief
    Has Tank (Daredevil) and DPS (Deadeye) and is missing a Support spec.

    I'd suggest a form of Bard. Maybe go with "Dirge" for the name just to be awkward and have all 3 specs start with the same letter :p

    It'd use Warhorn and Shouts (Which are more "Songs" than actual shouts, functioning sort of like AoE Stances).

    Class mechanic would be a channelled skill called "Verse" where you sing at your target causing some damage and debuffs, and the stolen skills would be "Choruses" which can be activated to end the Verse and provide boons to allies. The "Chorus" will cycle per interval of the channel. On steal procs will only occur per cast.

    Another idea for Thief is instead another DPS spec. Something like "Brigand" or "Pirate".

    It'd use dual axes and wouldn't have Dual Wield skills instead Skill 3 would be a "Dual Cast" skill where it changes based on the last 2 attacks you used (Including last hit of an auto attack chain but not the initial ones). This can end up creating more potent CC if you double cast say Headshot and then skill 3 you get a Stun attack. Or it can be bonus damage, if you do something like Heartseeker twice or Backstab and Heartseeker into skill 3.

    Class mechanic would be "Pillage" where you rush at a target and deal damage while stealing from them. Stolen skills would be class coins that are flipped to provide boons to self (Heads) or damage + conditions to enemies (Tails).

    Utilities would be Elixirs. In the form of alcohol. Ale, rum, whisky, beer, grog... Providing temporary effects both positive and negative.

    Engineer

    Has Tank (Scrapper) and DPS (Holosmith) and is missing Support.

    However, Scrapper is utilized as a Support for Engie right now. So I'd err towards a Ranged Condi based spec for the class.

    Using Longbow, Signets and an upgraded toolbelt that is an exoskeleton. I've gone into more detail over in the Engie subforum.

    Necromancer

    Has DPS (Reaper) and Support (Scourge) and is missing Tank.

    I'm not too sure exactly what I'd suggest here. I'd say something along the lines of using dual Maces and applying Confusion and Retaliation to hurt enemies that attack you. But that's as far as I've thought about it really.

    Elementalist

    Has Support (Tempest) and DPS (Tempest Weaver) and is missing Tank.

    Not sure what I'd do here either.

    I've been musing about a general idea for Elementalist though, which is a spec called "Astrologist" where Attunements are not based on elements, but on celestial bodies (Mostly)

    I.e. Fire = Solar, Water = Lunar, Air = Locus, Earth = Terra

    Haven't the foggiest what this means yet. But I'll be thinking a bit on it...

    Mesmer

    Has Support (Chrono) and DPS (Mirage) and is missing Tank.

    However, Chrono is already the best tank in the game so I dunno what they could really do to add a "Tank" spec to Mesmer.

    All I know is I think it would be cool to utilize the Hallucination mechanic from Iboga in PoF to make enemies hallucinate your clones and for your skills to be empowered against hallucinating foes (Like how Iboga can only pull you if you're hallucinating)

    Where it would fit into Mesmer as a whole, I don't know.

    Cat: Meow.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    Revenant
    My suggestion for this class would be the ritualist. Ritualists have alot in common with revenants and I would like that class to see their revival in them.
    They are also bruiser specs with alot of cc, especially roots to bind enemies with ghostly chains. Their utility skills would be conjured weapons, imitating the weapon spells which ritualists used to enchant the weapons of their allies. Their weapon would be a scepter.

    Mechanically, Revenant has nothing in common with Ritualist. And what you want for it isn't in the spirit, no pun intended, of the Ritualist which is a healer. As strange as that might sound, it is a core aspect of their identity. So a bruiser would be the antithisis of a Ritualist. I've suggested a means on how to make it work but it takes a specialization that almost completely warps the Revenant to suit its needs. Not saying it can't happen, since Scourge warped the necromancer pretty drastically same with Firebrand for guardian. But bruiser is not compatible with ritualist identity.

    But I Really REALLY REALLY don't want to get into this discussion. Ritualist was one of my favorite professions in GW1 and I Loathe the idea of it being shoehorned into the revenant who has no mechanical similarities.

    Necromancer
    Personally, I would use the crypt warden as the elite spec here. It is a bruiser elite spec that will give necromancers access to blocks by using bones. Lorewise, they are an order of necromancers dedicated to protect the tombs of Cantha's ancient heroes. As a symbol of their protective duties, they are wielding shields. Their utility skills could be traps, which will created bone spikes coming from the ground to impale enemies, creating bone walls to protect allies behind them, or undead hands coming from the ground to hold enemies in place.

    The big Flaw with your suggested design here is that the necromancer both already has a bruiser elite spec and they already have a spec that protects allies by preventing damage in a way. Reaper is a bruiser and Scourge is a protector. As for traps? Please no.

    The lore is also questionable. Ritualists are actually the ones who are more likely to be the keepers of the burial grounds of the heroes. Now, culturally Ritualist and Necromancer could have merged. Which makes a lot of sense since they're two sides of the same coin of necromancy. One controls rotting flesh and the other spirits. Well, that's not true. Necromancer always controlled spirits. More so now than before. But Ritualist specialized in it. The other possibility is that the Ritualist and Necromancer grow further apart.

    Necromancers are a bit more ambitious than Ritualists. Ritualists act as priests of grenth in Cantha while Necromancers who normally hold that title elsewhere in the world it is less common in Cantha. Necromancers peruse perfection of death magic in a way. And its suggested in the lore the necromancer taps into the realm of torment and underworld specifically to call forth a sort of proto demon which is why their minions look so weird. Who's to say their ambition doesn't bring them to pulling more power from demonic sources?

    But yeah, we already have the Protector necromancer. its the Scourge.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    The big Flaw with your suggested design here is that the necromancer both already has a bruiser elite spec and they already have a spec that protects allies by preventing damage in a way. Reaper is a bruiser and Scourge is a protector. As for traps? Please no.

    The lore is also questionable. Ritualists are actually the ones who are more likely to be the keepers of the burial grounds of the heroes. Now, culturally Ritualist and Necromancer could have merged. Which makes a lot of sense since they're two sides of the same coin of necromancy. One controls rotting flesh and the other spirits. Well, that's not true. Necromancer always controlled spirits. More so now than before. But Ritualist specialized in it. The other possibility is that the Ritualist and Necromancer grow further apart.

    Necromancers are a bit more ambitious than Ritualists. Ritualists act as priests of grenth in Cantha while Necromancers who normally hold that title elsewhere in the world it is less common in Cantha. Necromancers peruse perfection of death magic in a way. And its suggested in the lore the necromancer taps into the realm of torment and underworld specifically to call forth a sort of proto demon which is why their minions look so weird. Who's to say their ambition doesn't bring them to pulling more power from demonic sources?

    But yeah, we already have the Protector necromancer. its the Scourge.

    Necromancer doesn't have a bruiser elite spec in my opinion.
    For me it seems that reaper is supposed to be the dps option for necromancers. Every change that Anet has made to that e-spec over the years supports this.

    They increased the depletion rate of their shroud, which means that it works worse for tanking purposes.
    Many trait changes were made to push reaper into a dps role, like changing the trait which made the reaper take less damage from chilled foes to a trait that increases reaper's damage against the same. Or that reaper is getting huge damage buffs in shroud by getting perma quickness and a huge load of ferocity.

    The defense that is left for reaper is there for the same reason why holosmith has many defensive tools. Because it is a melee dps spec and it needs some survivability to be able to perform in that role, but these tools still don't make it an effective tank, just like for holosmith.

    Necromancer still didn't get a bruiser spec, that's how I see it and that's why I think their next spec will be a bruiser.
    While scourge has a protector thematic, it is about leading the souls to the afterlife. What I suggest here doesn't do that, their purpose in the lore is protecting tradition. They are more like ceremonial warriors which got the duty to make sure that the heroes of the past won't get defiled.

    I think that will feel distinct enough. Especially since the thematic mostly would revolve around bones instead of sand and souls.
    Not entirely sure why you are opposed to traps, I think they are fairly interesting skills and if done right they can do great work. Dragonhunter's traps are functioning really well for dealing damage, for example.

    I actually see the flaw in your suggestion, since you want a healing support spec for necromancer.... that niche is scourge's already. I am fairly sure you won't see a healing support spec as the next one simply because of this. We can roughly seperate elite specs in 3 roles: dps, bruiser, support.
    Scourge is the support, there is no need for another one. Scourge even is used as a healer spec in high end PvE. The only difference that barrier has to healing is that it is proactive instead of reactive, but it still serves the very same purpose.

    And btw: ritualist hasn't been just a healer class. It was a jack of all trades. They could build for healing support, damage dealers and yes, even frontline bruisers.
    Some weapon spells worked wonders to protect ritualists in the frontline while they had spells like spirit's strength increased their damage.

    Anet acknowledged the fact that ritualists have been able to do basically everything if built right. Engineers were their modern interpretation of that class and they were also jacks of all trades in the past, which was actually one of the major problems of engineers, since they were able to do everything but didn't really excel at anything, making them undesired.

    So in Anet's vision, a ritualist elite spec definitely could be a bruiser. They had bruiser tools back in guild wars, even if you don't seem to want to acknowledge that.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Warrior: I'd like to see a "legionary" spec (closer to a support than anything) where bursts are replaced by "chants" flavored based on the Off-hand weapon (or 2 handed weapon equiped). A GW's paragon yet not a paragon.

    Guardian: I'd like to see a "paladin" spec, replacing virtues by banners.

    Revenant: There is quite a few thing I'd wanna see on this one, But i'd like it if it was either a "transform" spec. Honnestly I'd like a transform spec based on the norn's frog spirit with a twist of lore in which this spirit decided to turn itself toward hylek because it's despised by norn and the legend end up becoming a legendary hylek.

    Ranger: I want a "minion" spec, with minions as utilities. The special mechanism would give access to a few spec specific pets but remove access to the classic one.

    Thief: A "shadow caster" spec with "steal" having an effect close to mesmer's phase retreat and corruptions creating powerful "shadow spells" at the cost of being revealed. It'd come at the cost of the "stealth attack" on skill#1 but with a bunch of traits making you want to be revealed.

    Engineer: Like I said on the engineer subforum, either a sound base e-spec or a "cyberpunk junky" that use implants to emulate signets (with obviously some side effects to make things fun).

    Elementalist: I guess a "summoner" would be fitting and would make good use of the minions created via glyphs.

    Necromancer: A spec with a concept of main mechanic that use life force and blood to grow parasites withing the necromancer's body that can be released onto foes (a bit like having mantras instead of the shroud). This would cover the theme of parasites/insects (recurent in the necromancer), self ailment, minions and condition manipulation.

    Mesmer: I want a spec where the clones are attached to the master instead of the foe. Something based on self-ailment and condition transfer/conversion.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Warrior: I'd like to see a "legionary" spec (closer to a support than anything) where bursts are replaced by "chants" flavored based on the Off-hand weapon (or 2 handed weapon equiped). A GW's paragon yet not a paragon.

    Guardian: I'd like to see a "paladin" spec, replacing virtues by banners.

    Revenant: There is quite a few thing I'd wanna see on this one, But i'd like it if it was either a "transform" spec. Honnestly I'd like a transform spec based on the norn's frog spirit with a twist of lore in which this spirit decided to turn itself toward hylek because it's despised by norn and the legend end up becoming a legendary hylek.

    Ranger: I want a "minion" spec, with minions as utilities. The special mechanism would give access to a few spec specific pets but remove access to the classic one.

    Thief: A "shadow caster" spec with "steal" having an effect close to mesmer's phase retreat and corruptions creating powerful "shadow spells" at the cost of being revealed. It'd come at the cost of the "stealth attack" on skill#1 but with a bunch of traits making you want to be revealed.

    Engineer: Like I said on the engineer subforum, either a sound base e-spec or a "cyberpunk junky" that use implants to emulate signets (with obviously some side effects to make things fun).

    Elementalist: I guess a "summoner" would be fitting and would make good use of the minions created via glyphs.

    Necromancer: A spec with a concept of main mechanic that use life force and blood to grow parasites withing the necromancer's body that can be released onto foes (a bit like having mantras instead of the shroud). This would cover the theme of parasites/insects (recurent in the necromancer), self ailment, minions and condition manipulation.

    Mesmer: I want a spec where the clones are attached to the master instead of the foe. Something based on self-ailment and condition transfer/conversion.

    Wanting to be revealed kinda contradicts the thematic of a shadow caster, doesn't it? Thief's shadow magic is tailored towards hiding yourself and others, thematically the polar opposite of being revealed.

    Really like your idea of an insect/parasites based necromancer, tho. Could also work well with life siphon effects, which could give more benefit to the new trait blood bank.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Warrior: I'd like to see a "legionary" spec (closer to a support than anything) where bursts are replaced by "chants" flavored based on the Off-hand weapon (or 2 handed weapon equiped). A GW's paragon yet not a paragon.

    Guardian: I'd like to see a "paladin" spec, replacing virtues by banners.

    Revenant: There is quite a few thing I'd wanna see on this one, But i'd like it if it was either a "transform" spec. Honnestly I'd like a transform spec based on the norn's frog spirit with a twist of lore in which this spirit decided to turn itself toward hylek because it's despised by norn and the legend end up becoming a legendary hylek.

    Ranger: I want a "minion" spec, with minions as utilities. The special mechanism would give access to a few spec specific pets but remove access to the classic one.

    Thief: A "shadow caster" spec with "steal" having an effect close to mesmer's phase retreat and corruptions creating powerful "shadow spells" at the cost of being revealed. It'd come at the cost of the "stealth attack" on skill#1 but with a bunch of traits making you want to be revealed.

    Engineer: Like I said on the engineer subforum, either a sound base e-spec or a "cyberpunk junky" that use implants to emulate signets (with obviously some side effects to make things fun).

    Elementalist: I guess a "summoner" would be fitting and would make good use of the minions created via glyphs.

    Necromancer: A spec with a concept of main mechanic that use life force and blood to grow parasites withing the necromancer's body that can be released onto foes (a bit like having mantras instead of the shroud). This would cover the theme of parasites/insects (recurent in the necromancer), self ailment, minions and condition manipulation.

    Mesmer: I want a spec where the clones are attached to the master instead of the foe. Something based on self-ailment and condition transfer/conversion.

    Wanting to be revealed kinda contradicts the thematic of a shadow caster, doesn't it? Thief's shadow magic is tailored towards hiding yourself and others, thematically the polar opposite of being revealed.

    Thief does currently have traits that provide benefits from being Revealed though.

    Revealed Training in Deadly Arts providing 120 Power while Revealed.
    Hidden Killer in Critical Strikes providing 100% crit chance for 2 seconds after being revealed (Though this doesn't seem to rely upon the actual status effect "Revealed" and is more about just leaving stealth).
    Flickering Shadows in Shadow Arts providing 33% damage reduction while Revealed (Which would likely be OP as heck with the aforementioned E-Spec)

    Cat: Meow.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To put in my own two cents:

    First, as a general observation, it's probably a bit late to put in threat mechanics without rebuilding the game mechanics from the ground up. Possibly they could make using the taunt mechanic draw aggro for a time after the condition itself expires, but any skill who's primary effect is "draw aggro" just isn't going to work well in PvP, and ArenaNet is only willing to split so far.

    Going through the professions:

    Warrior

    What would probably fit for the warrior at this stage is a supportive/commander spec, after the Berserker which seems to be oriented largely as a DPS spec, and the Spellbreaker which is largely bruiser-oriented. How this would work exactly is an open question - at the risk of not being Canthan-themed, Paragon is possibly the most obvious option for this approach, but this might not be adding much that warrior and guardian can't already do.

    Past elite specialisations for warrior thus far have generally been themed towards adding magic to the warrior, which might work better to provide a distinct playstyle. With guardian around, W/Mo is pretty much covered already, while reapers and, arguably, Mallyx revs have the 'dark magic warrior' theme covered. What could possibly be interesting is a water/earth themed dervish-esque spec, which would in turn bring up staff as a possible (melee, but possibly PBAoE-oriented) weapon.

    Guardian

    Honestly, at this stage, I'm just jealous of what Almorra had. Something oriented more towards 1v1s with a bit more mobility and chase potential than DHs, firebrands, or regular guardians could fit in well.

    Revenant

    It's a discussion that's been had before, but I really think Kalla is already about as ritualist as revenant is ever likely to be. It summons spirits that heal, provide buffs, attack, and with a trait, protect.

    At the moment, I think the one thing revenant probably doesn't need right now is another support spec. Herald tried to be, even if what it provides is fairly generic and therefore not in all that high demand. Renegade was then a second shot at it that actually worked. Given that half of the core legends are also fairly supportive-themed, that's probably enough for the time being.

    Ranger

    Gonna have to admit to not having a lot of inspiration when it comes to ranger. Druid is a pretty clear-cut support-oriented spec, while soulbeast has worked out to be pretty much oriented towards DPS, particularly power spikes. Possibly something with more self-sustain or more AoE-oriented.

    As a lore observation, there is that story about an NPC ranger who sent an army of animals against an evil spellcaster - the Ranger incumbent at Tahnnakai Temple, if I recall correctly. So there could be a precedent for an 'army of animals'-type spec in there. Something themed around the Wardens could also be interesting, particularly since that would be an opportune way to bring back hammer rangers.

    Thief

    As has been said - a proper support thief would be the gap-filler here.

    In this regard, I do note that the daredevil already has the 'martial arts' theme, while deadeyes have the whole mark mechanic which feels quite assassin-y regardless of the weapon choice. What seems to largely be missing is the more magical theme (although deadeye also leans a bit into that with cantrips). So I think that would probably be a suitable approach for a more support-oriented thief, drawing more deeply from shadow magic to heal and protect allies. Focus offhand could be interesting here, particularly given that for a thief taking a focus over some other offhand would mean three skills (one of which would depend on the other weapon being wielded rather than just two. Could be interesting to see what ArenaNet might be able to come up with for pistol/focus, dagger/focus, and sword/focus.

    Engineer

    I think the biggest thing here is "not another melee spec". They've had two. Don't need another. To make matters worse, even most of the core profession is oriented towards fighting at medium ranges at best.

    Beyond that, I am leaning towards support-oriented. The 'plaguedoctor' theme floating around is a decent one for hitting the currently lacking buttons of "range", "support", "conditions", and "chemical-oriented" (something that's been pregressively reduced in core engineer over time, although it's obviously still present). That said, I will note that I don't agree with the viewpoint of @Kodama.6453 that engineer has already had their electricity theme. Engineers are the technology-oriented profession, electricity is often closely associated with technology, and it's present in core engineer and (if you look at the skill graphics) holosmith - saying that scrapper is the electricity-themed engineer elite spec and it therefore shouldn't have another one is, IMO, like saying that firebrand is the fire-themed guardian elite specialisation and therefore future elite specialisations shouldn't use fire. The chemical theme probably is more fitting for Cantha and provides for conditions, so it should probably have priority for the immediate future, but I think there's definitely room for more electricity in the engineer.

    Necromancer

    There's a degree to which it's probably reasonable to say that necromancer builds are somewhat defined by what they do with their shrouds. Core necro is a bit of a ranged bruiser, albeit through a double health pool rather than active defences. Reaper is melee DPS. Scourge is support.

    If I was looking for somewhere where the necromancer really needs help, I'd probably be looking at DPS in cooperative instanced content. Power reapers do well in small-scale PvP and in solo PvE because they're very self-sufficient - they can provide themselves with a lot of Might, inflict a lot of Vulnerability, give themselves quickness, and give themselves some truly ridiculous boosts to crit chance. This means that they can often outperform most professions in solo DPS, but do not benefit as much from buffs as they're often overlapping with things the reaper already has. It's probably not possible to buff reaper so that it's competitive in raids without making it ridiculously strong, comparatively speaking, in terms of solo PvE DPS.

    Some of this is baked into the necromancer core so there's not much that can be done about it (although reducing the rate at which shroud skill 1 is used will reduce the Might and Vulnerability stacks), but I think there is the opportunity there for a necromancer DPS build which is a bit less self-sufficient and thus can benefit more from support. Such a build would probably underperform compared to reaper in solo PvE, but would allow necromancer to be more competitive for DPS slots in raids, fractals, and the like.

    There's also a degree to which both necromancer elite specs are a bit "benefits from being in melee or in close", but it's not as bad as engineer or elementalist.

    On a thematic note, I would say that if I was to bring in a ritualist-themed elite specialisation, doing so with the necromancer would make a lot of sense. How well that would blend with the considerations above is left as an exercise for the reader.

    Elementalist

    As intimated above, elementalists are another profession where the elite specs have kept being melee-oriented, or at least close-in-oriented. Tempest isn't technically melee, but is loaded with area effects centered on the tempest. Weaver, with its normal weapon, actually IS melee, and while it can certainly function well with other weapons, it's utilities also seem themed around being in close. I think it'd be worthwhile to see a third standoff weapon alongside staff and scepter. Don't really have strong feelings as to what it is, but with staff being mostly oriented towards fighting groups and scepter still being fairly group oriented when not attuned to air, it might be nice to see a weapon that's optimised towards fighting single targets.

    Exactly what theme it would have... that, again, I might leave as an exercise to the reader. It's getting late local. The most obvious choices for a ranged, single-target optimised weapon would probably be rifle or pistols, though, which naturally suggests a theme.

    Mesmer

    ...ironically, mesmer is another profession whose elite specs have been more melee-oriented. Chronomancer wells have the strongest effect when both you and your enemy are on them, while mirage is a bit like weaver in that it can be used with a ranged style but most of its kit is oriented towards close combat. Otherwise, while mesmers are in a bit of an unstable balance where they tend to swing between OP and UP in competitive modes, in PvE they're in a fairly good state, having good DPS and support builds both, although they can sometimes feel a bit fragile in open world. (Part of the problem there, though, is that like scrappers, they can sometimes feel invincible one moment and then you're practically dead and your cooldowns are gone the next - a lot of mesmer builds nowadays are good at remaining at full health one way or another while things are going well, and bad at recovering when things go downhill.)

    I think I've been in a few discussions regarding different playstyles for mesmer that could come up in an elite specialisation, but right now, I'm having trouble remembering what they might be. From what I recall, they tended to mostly involve altering with the illusions mechanics. Currently, we have Chronophantasma, which makes phantasms more persistent, and Infinite Horizon, which kinda means you can use your clones as pseudo-phantasms. One concept I do recall is removing shatters and replacing them with skills that cause clones to perform specific actions, although I don't recall the details.

    Maybe I'll recall more in the future. At this point, I should probably wrap this up.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    Wanting to be revealed kinda contradicts the thematic of a shadow caster, doesn't it? Thief's shadow magic is tailored towards hiding yourself and others, thematically the polar opposite of being revealed.

    Well, it would promote a different gameplay. In GW "shadow magic" was more than merely hidding. Instead of using stealth to do a "surprise attack", you temporarily sacrifice your ability to enter stealth to cast a spell. I don't feel like it's out of thematic.

    Really like your idea of an insect/parasites based necromancer, tho. Could also work well with life siphon effects, which could give more benefit to the new trait blood bank.

    This is how I envisionned it some time ago (not sure I wouldn't make some change now):
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/101192/e-spec-idea-king-of-worms

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    As a Engineer Main, I have multiple types but only one can be expected for next Engineer Elite Spec....

    1) Main Hand Weapon modification Elite Spec
    Weapon: Greatsword or Longbow
    Mechanic: Modification which focus on sacrificing 2 Kits to give main weapon a new set of weapon skills based on the kits being used. Any kit related perks will also now apply to Main Weapon as well since the Main Weapon uses the Kits to engineer it into what is.

    2) Technomancer Elite Spec
    Weapon: Staff
    Mechanic: Electric magnitic Barriers that apply HP Shield and can be modified to have addition effects such as extra damage reduction, damage enemies nearby, or higher HP Shield. This will be the second HP Shield Healer Elite Spec next to Necro's Scourge. The more offensive attacks are based on crowd control such as stunning and slowing enemies.

    3) Core Power Elite Spec.
    Weapon: Greatsword
    Mechanic: Core mechanic is the empowerment of Engineer's Main Weapons with a Core to become stronger. All Engineer's Main Weapon skills are all changed to Core Weapon skills with it having two types being Normal Charged Main Weapon skills and Overcharge Main Weapon skills.

    For example, Rifle Normal charged Main Weapon skill will act more like a railgun but Overcharge will provide stronger skills and also additional effects to each weapon skill based on which Core being used.

    There are three cores the Core Master can choose from being Heat Core (ideal for explosive Circle Range AoE attacks), Electric Core (More focus on Linear Column Range AoE attacks), and Ice Core (Uses skills that are more AoE melee range based but provide decent buffs for melee combat and tanking)

  • Legion.4198Legion.4198 Member ✭✭
    edited August 2, 2020

    I like many of the suggestion already presented and some of them coincide with my thoughts. Many of these are obviously thematically linked to Cantha, although I suspect that a some of of them will end up being not so. Still, here is my take:

    Warrior

    We already have the berserker and we have a mystical warrior in the form of the speallbreaker. Like others have already said, I think the next archetype should be professional soldier or a strategist who leads men into the fray like a Warmaster, Warlord or Standard-Bearer. Of course, the ideal would be to bring polearms into the game. Absent of that option, the staff seems like the most natural weapon option.

    Guardian

    For the guardian I would suggest something inspired either by the Japanese Sōhei Warrior Monk. While Nagitana polearms are traditionally associated with them, Sōhei warriors became known for their skill and expertise in manufacturing and using lots of guns during the Sengoku Jidai. A second source of inspiration could be some kind of witch/vampire-hunter, particularly if it is associated with the Ministry of Purity. Still, this later option would overlap somewhat with the dragonhunter which is already inspired by it. I personally favour rifles, but off-hand swords and pistol would work too.

    Revenant

    I think a legendary Tengu Ronin Samurai (Talon Silverwing) or a legendary Norn Champion (Jora, Olaf Olafson, or Asgeir Dragonrender) would be fitting, although the former is somewhat taken by the Renegade already. Blind samurai with a katana (greatsword) is a classical archetype and would fit the Revenant perfectly. The same goes for a Norn champion armed with a greatsword.

    Ranger

    The ranger has already two highly magically specializations in the form of the Druid and the Soulbeast. For the ranger I would suggest bringing the Ranger down to Earth a bit and make some kind of Pack-Hunter or Monster-Slayer who uses pets (perhaps with rifles or hammers) to hunt down its prey. A Freebooter pirate specialization could also work, but, aside from the Crimson Skull, Cantha is less known for piracy than Elona or Tyria unless Cantha ends up being the "Ocean Expansion" as many people suspect.

    Thief

    Personally, I’m in favour of a Shadowmage or mage-bandit, like an eldritch scoundrel, shadowdancer or an arcane trickster from D&D. The daredevil already fills the martial artist while the deadeadye is clearly a bounty hunter/assassin. Cantha was already known for the Assassin profession back in Factions but the basic thief already has some overlap with the daggers and shadowstep skills. Meanwhile, Kaineng has a history with organized crime such as the Jade Brotherhood and the Am Fah which could have easily evolved into triad-like secret societies that use dark magic, like shadow arts, to commit crime. As a thief elite spec that uses magic, my weapon of choice would be the focus or a off-hand sword.

    Engineer

    Like others have said alchemy have long been associated with ancient China so an Alchemist engineer would make a lot of sense. The first Emperor of China, Qin Shi, sought the Elixir of Life to gain immortality and it is thought that he died from ingesting mercury pills made by his alchemist and court physicians in pursuit of that goal. While Chinese alchemy is closely related to Taoism and traditional medicine, both Chinese and European uses of alchemy are similar in their search of elixirs capable of extending one’s life and the transmutation of metals. The transmutation of metals could also be included into the theme but it might be more fitting of a transmuter elementalist.

    On the other hand, we have gunpowder which was a product of alchemical experiments too. The first confirmed reference to gunpowder goes back to the year 808, although you can find possible references to it as early as the year 142. The Wujing Zongyao, a Chinese military compendium written in in 1044, has a long compendium of weapons including formulas and use of gunpowder (fire arrows, incendiary bombs, rockets, grenades, smoke boms, flamethrowers. You can find various odd names for gunpowder weapons in this book like “flying incendiary club for subjugating demons”, “caltrop fire ball”, “big bees nest”, “ten-thousand fire flying sand magic bomb”, “flying rats, “fire birds”, “fire oxen”, etc. These would coalesce into a smaller number of weapons like gunpowder arrows, fire lances, multiple rockets launchers, firearms, cannons, mines, and bombs. Early gunpowder weapons such as hangonnes and cannons would later arrive to Europe in 1320 just before the Hundred Year’s war.

    While both the longbow and the shortbow seems suitable to such elite spec, the basic thief already has explosive and poison gas arrows with the shortbow. Another option would be to introduce the scepter or the focus as a method to mix on the fly alchemical components or a practical use of magic suitable to the engineer like with the Zephyrite crystals and the Holomancer.

    Necromancer

    We have the Reaper which is clearly meant to evoke an unstoppable, cold-bloded, juggernaut killer from slasher movies, and the scourge which a sand-master which kinda remind me of a plaguemaster cultist. Occultist, ritualist, or fortune tellers like the Japanese Onmyōdō which specialized in magic and divination and protecting cities from evil spirits with spells and paper talismans (ofuda) could serve for inspiration for a Canthan-inspired necromancer. Cantha already has a tradition of fortune telling. Similar traditions exist in China and other countries in East Asia.

    Mesmer

    I can imagine mesmers being heavily use by both the Canthan aristocracy in fancy duels, and the Ministry of Purity for propaganda and espionage purposes. Mesmers are already well represented among human nobility, and I suspect they would be no exception in Cantha. I suggest main-hand pistol.

    Elementalist

    As others have said, introducing a fifth element to the Elementalist would be fitting. The Wuxing adds metal to the to the classic four elements. Meanwhile in the Europe, aether was believed to be the fifth element that filled space above the terrestrial sphere. Luminiferous aether was thought to be the medium for the propagation of life until the beginning of the 20th century.

    On the other hand, as I have said before, a Transmuter would also be fitting. The transmutation of metals could also be used in terms of turning people, weapons and armor into gold or lead, rusting people’s armor and so on.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Legion.4198 said:

    I see your point, but while Cantha draws alot of inspiration from Asian cultures, we should not forget that Cantha also is an own land with own lore in this game.
    Which is the reason why I came up with the spec idea of a plaguedoctor in the first place, since Cantha really had a magical plague ravaging in their land.

    Elementalist

    As others have said, introducing a fifth element to the Elementalist would be fitting. The Wuxing adds metal to the to the classic four elements. Meanwhile in the Europe, aether was believed to be the fifth element that filled space above the terrestrial sphere. Luminiferous aether was thought to be the medium for the propagation of life until the beginning of the 20th century.

    On the other hand, as I have said before, a Transmuter would also be fitting. The transmutation of metals could also be used in terms of turning people, weapons and armor into gold or lead, rusting people’s armor and so on.

    Minor detail about Wuxing you mentioned: there are 5 elements in Wuxing, but metal as a 5th addition is not the only difference to the 4 elements teachings from Europe.
    Elementalist uses these four elements: air, earth, water, fire
    Wuxing uses these five: earth, water, fire, wood, metal

    Wuxing doesn't consider air as one of the elements and also adds wood, not just metal.

  • Legion.4198Legion.4198 Member ✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Legion.4198 said:

    I see your point, but while Cantha draws alot of inspiration from Asian cultures, we should not forget that Cantha also is an own land with own lore in this game.
    Which is the reason why I came up with the spec idea of a plaguedoctor in the first place, since Cantha really had a magical plague ravaging in their land.

    Honestly, I think I like your concept better than mine as it would allow us to play as a mad scientist archetype in the style of a Frankenstein or Dr Jekyll and Mister Hyde. My take was more focused on alchemy which might end up being too magical for the engineer.

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    Elementalist

    As others have said, introducing a fifth element to the Elementalist would be fitting. The Wuxing adds metal to the to the classic four elements. Meanwhile in the Europe, aether was believed to be the fifth element that filled space above the terrestrial sphere. Luminiferous aether was thought to be the medium for the propagation of life until the beginning of the 20th century.

    On the other hand, as I have said before, a Transmuter would also be fitting. The transmutation of metals could also be used in terms of turning people, weapons and armor into gold or lead, rusting people’s armor and so on.

    Minor detail about Wuxing you mentioned: there are 5 elements in Wuxing, but metal as a 5th addition is not the only difference to the 4 elements teachings from Europe.
    Elementalist uses these four elements: air, earth, water, fire
    Wuxing uses these five: earth, water, fire, wood, metal

    Wuxing doesn't consider air as one of the elements and also adds wood, not just metal.

    True, I forgot about that.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2020

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Legion.4198 said:

    I see your point, but while Cantha draws alot of inspiration from Asian cultures, we should not forget that Cantha also is an own land with own lore in this game.
    Which is the reason why I came up with the spec idea of a plaguedoctor in the first place, since Cantha really had a magical plague ravaging in their land.

    This is really going to be down to how Cantha has advanced since their isolation due to little knowledge of the state of Cantha with economics, technology, magic, and science advancements.

    The Plague Doctor may also end up as a Necro Elite Spec instead as well due to Necromencer's history with Plague type magic and study of Plagues and diseases for advancing and curing plagues and diseases since they also need a good understanding on how these thing work for the creation of their plague magics down to even how these things can be cured.

    For all we know Cantha may have entered their Gundam Mech stage of technology due to the advancements of their Engineering during their isolation stage.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Legion.4198 said:

    I see your point, but while Cantha draws alot of inspiration from Asian cultures, we should not forget that Cantha also is an own land with own lore in this game.
    Which is the reason why I came up with the spec idea of a plaguedoctor in the first place, since Cantha really had a magical plague ravaging in their land.

    This is really going to be down to how Cantha has advanced since their isolation due to little knowledge of the state of Cantha with economics, technology, magic, and science advancements.

    The Plague Doctor may also end up as a Necro Elite Spec instead as well due to Necromencer's history with Plague type magic and study of Plagues and diseases for advancing and curing plagues and diseases since they also need a good understanding on how these thing work for the creation of their plague magics down to even how these things can be cured.

    For all we know Cantha may have entered their Gundam Mech stage of technology due to the advancements of their Engineering during their isolation stage.

    Very well possible, yes.
    Plagudoctor is basically a thematical fusion of the classes necromancer (plagues and diseases in general) and engineer (alchemy, modern medicine, etc).

    Therefore that archetype could get approached from both directions: they could either make it a necromancer elite spec by adding engineer thematics (giving them elixirs, pistols. etc) or making it an engineer elite spec by adding necromancer thematics.

    I personally prefer to make it an engineer elite spec for several reasons.

    1. In general, I enjoy plaguedoctors to be more on the technological side than on the magical side. Just personal preference, but that's how it is for me. I enjoy a plaguedoctor who uses technological devices, syringes, and other inventions over one that uses dark magic to resurrect the dead.
    2. It would kinda bind engineer into the lore of Cantha. Since the first Guild Wars didn't have the technological level, there are not really archetypes from back then we could use for their elite spec, unlike other classes. We can use ritualist for either necromancer or revenant thematically. We can use assassins or shadow mages for thief. We can use the wardens or the juggernauts from the Kurzick for ranger. And so on. The plague would provide an opportunity to make the engineer elite spec not come completely out of nowhere.
    3. I am an engineer main and plaguedoctors are awesome. Yes, I am biased.
    4. I think we should enhance the alchemical aspects of the engineer a bit more with the next elite spec. And it would also provide an opportunity to bring back some of the lost alchemical thematics from the engineer. Alchemy used to be about dangerous chemicals in the past with alot of acid, "deadly mixtures" and such. Ever since the big trait reworks, alchemy now is purely supportive. Chemical warfare aspects of the engineer got a bit lost here.
  • Black Storm.6974Black Storm.6974 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2020

    The main thing I’m hoping is that ArenaNet won’t add any new Elite Specialization.

    Since they added Scourge, a Spec that it is impossible to play for me in its condition version, I look only with fear at the possibility of new Elite Specs.

    Necromancer is the only profession I enjoy playing in Guild Wars 2 (I have all of them), so it would a problem for me if they add a new Elite Spec I can not play.

    It is interesting to notice that I have this problem only with the condition version of Scourge. The main reason is that internal cooldowns of traits makes it overly complicated to play. It is interesting to notice that we have these internal cooldowns to not make these traits “too strong” in competitive game modes. I suggest to remove them, finding a different solution to not make the combination of skills and traits “overpowered”. I would really appreciate that.
    Another thing I really dislike is that to play condition Scourge effectively in PvE, I have to constantly keep my eyes on the cooldowns on the skill bar (that is bad for the game: it makes too difficult to pay attention to all the other things we have to pay attention to while fighting, and it goes strongly against the idea of not having to “play the UI”), these cooldowns are also very short. Also, I have to constantly try to judge what skill I should use next.

    As I said this is simply impossibile for me (and probably many other people), and totally ruin the fun for me.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2020

    @Black Storm.6974 said:
    The main thing I’m hoping is that ArenaNet won’t add any new Elite Specialization.

    Since they added Scourge, a Spec that it is impossible to play for me in its condition version, I look only with fear at the possibility of new Elite Specs.

    Necromancer is the only profession I enjoy playing in Guild Wars 2 (I have all of them), so it would a problem for me if they add a new Elite Spec I can not play.

    It is interesting to notice that I have this problem only with the condition version of Scourge. The main reason is that internal cooldowns of traits makes it overly complicated to play. It is interesting to notice that we have these internal cooldowns to not make these traits “too strong” in competitive game modes. I suggest to remove them, finding a different solution to not make the combination of skills and traits “overpowered”. I would really appreciate that.
    Another thing I really dislike is that to play condition Scourge effectively in PvE, I have to constantly keep my eyes on the cooldowns on the skill bar (that is bad for the game: it makes too difficult to pay attention to all the other things we have to pay attention to while fighting, and it goes strongly against the idea of not having to “play the UI”), these cooldowns are also very short. Also, I have to constantly try to judge what skill I should use next.

    As I said this is simply impossibile for me (and probably many other people), and totally ruin the fun for me.

    It sounds more like the issue you're having is that you have not found a Elite Spec to you desired gameplay style yet rather than Elite Spec themselves.

    A Elite Spec role is to Specialize into a specific Gameplay Role being either Direct DPS, Condition DPS, Healer/Support, or Tank.

    As of now Necro only has two Elite specs that focus on two roles being Reaper is Direct DPS based and Scourge is Healer/HP Shield/Support. There is no Elite Spec that Specializes in Condition damage yet.

    Another issue I notice you mentioning is that you're having a hard time managing your cooldowns which is a common mistake for people who are more use to games that favor spamming every single button skills without cooldown restrictions. You have to consider greatly how you use your skills based on time and scenario rather than spam every single button at once.

  • Black Storm.6974Black Storm.6974 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2020

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:

    @Black Storm.6974 said:
    The main thing I’m hoping is that ArenaNet won’t add any new Elite Specialization.

    Since they added Scourge, a Spec that it is impossible to play for me in its condition version, I look only with fear at the possibility of new Elite Specs.

    Necromancer is the only profession I enjoy playing in Guild Wars 2 (I have all of them), so it would a problem for me if they add a new Elite Spec I can not play.

    It is interesting to notice that I have this problem only with the condition version of Scourge. The main reason is that internal cooldowns of traits makes it overly complicated to play. It is interesting to notice that we have these internal cooldowns to not make these traits “too strong” in competitive game modes. I suggest to remove them, finding a different solution to not make the combination of skills and traits “overpowered”. I would really appreciate that.
    Another thing I really dislike is that to play condition Scourge effectively in PvE, I have to constantly keep my eyes on the cooldowns on the skill bar (that is bad for the game: it makes too difficult to pay attention to all the other things we have to pay attention to while fighting, and it goes strongly against the idea of not having to “play the UI”), these cooldowns are also very short. Also, I have to constantly try to judge what skill I should use next.

    As I said this is simply impossibile for me (and probably many other people), and totally ruin the fun for me.

    It sounds more like the issue you're having is that you have not found a Elte Spec to you desired gameplay style yet rather than Elite Spec themselves.

    As of now Necro only has two Elite specs that focus on two roles being Reaper is Power based and Scourge is Healer/HP Shield. There is no Elite Spec that Specializes in Condition damage yet.

    Another issue I notice you mentioning is that you're having a hard time managing your cooldowns which is a common mistake for people who are use to games with gameplay that have zero cooldowns and can instant cast everything. You have to consider greatly how you use your skills based on time and scenario rather than spam every single button at once.

    Managing these cooldowns is far harder on Scourge than on any other thing I tried, and something that most players will never be able to do effectively. It is a Scourge problem that can be fixed.

    I can manage cooldowns and decisions pretty well after playing Guild Wars 2 for over 12k hours (just not on Scourge condition), focusing a lot on fighting and improving my skills. The vast majority of players will never come even close to that, also because they are not really interested in putting the effort necessary to do that.

    Scourge “condition” (condition is obviously a generalisation and don’t say everything it can do) exists as a role and most people want Necromancer to play Scourge “for that role”.
    Scourge is also barely half support, if properly traited every single skill can do “relevant” condition damage. Punishment skills mostly provide very bad support alongside a generally more “relevant” offensive capability.

    Scourge condition is simply overly complicated, and I doubt it is cause of its intended design and playstyle. It is probably mostly a consequence of other things, for example: several short internal cooldowns put to reduce the effectiveness of traits in a competitive environment, every single F skil doing high damage cause there are traits in other Specs that add that to the Shroud related skills of every Spec.
    It could be simplified without any drastic change of its current playstyle.

    I’m just not convinced ArenaNet will be able to design and balance the next Elite Specs without causing similar problems. So, what I hope is that they don’t release any new Elite Spec, instead I hope they can look at the current Specs (Elite or not), also developing “missing skills” (like an elite Signet for Necromancer).

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2020

    Especs are not defined by roles, roles are defined by the theme of the espec, at least ever since PoF (especs will have at least 2 or more defining and different roles).

    I doubt they will release a ‘healer’ espec ever again (e.g. druid), with the amount of options flying around, being restricted to such a role would make the espec way too niche to ever be played, unless the espec was planned to be completely useless from the start. It would be appropriate if said espec had a option for some alternate dps/bruiser/dueler role so it would see some use elsewhere. Switching to an espec which plays vastly differently from what is preferred just to play a very general role (e.g. usually ‘dps’) isn’t really a good argument either.

    My only hope is that they’ve learned from their mishaps and actually design especs that achieve what they were supposedly intended to do (create new options, take away some, have distinct playstyle and different mechanics from core, not have to continually nerf the espec because the concept is broken, etc.).

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    Especs are not defined by roles, roles are defined by the theme of the espec, at least ever since PoF (especs will have at least 2 or more defining and different roles).

    I doubt they will release a ‘healer’ espec ever again (e.g. druid), with the amount of options flying around, being restricted to such a role would make the espec way too niche to ever be played, unless the espec was planned to be completely useless from the start. It would be appropriate if said espec had a option for some alternate dps/bruiser/dueler role so it would see some use elsewhere. Switching to an espec which plays vastly differently from what is preferred just to play a very general role (e.g. usually ‘dps’) isn’t really a good argument either.

    My only hope is that they’ve learned from their mishaps and actually design especs that achieve what they were supposedly intended to do (create new options, take away some, have distinct playstyle and different mechanics from core, not have to continually nerf the espec because the concept is broken, etc.).

    I'd add that the expansion theme don't necessarily define the e-specs theme. For example, reaper and chronomancer hardly fit within the them of HoT's maguma jungle. Of the 9 HoT e-specs, only 3 can be said to fit the theme: scrapper (due to the wreckage and crash sites), Dragon Hunter (for obvious reason) and Druid. As for PoF, I wouldn't say that soulbeast, holosmith and renegade especially fit the theme of elona.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    Especs are not defined by roles, roles are defined by the theme of the espec, at least ever since PoF (especs will have at least 2 or more defining and different roles).

    I doubt they will release a ‘healer’ espec ever again (e.g. druid), with the amount of options flying around, being restricted to such a role would make the espec way too niche to ever be played, unless the espec was planned to be completely useless from the start. It would be appropriate if said espec had a option for some alternate dps/bruiser/dueler role so it would see some use elsewhere. Switching to an espec which plays vastly differently from what is preferred just to play a very general role (e.g. usually ‘dps’) isn’t really a good argument either.

    My only hope is that they’ve learned from their mishaps and actually design especs that achieve what they were supposedly intended to do (create new options, take away some, have distinct playstyle and different mechanics from core, not have to continually nerf the espec because the concept is broken, etc.).

    I'd add that the expansion theme don't necessarily define the e-specs theme. For example, reaper and chronomancer hardly fit within the them of HoT's maguma jungle. Of the 9 HoT e-specs, only 3 can be said to fit the theme: scrapper (due to the wreckage and crash sites), Dragon Hunter (for obvious reason) and Druid. As for PoF, I wouldn't say that soulbeast, holosmith and renegade especially fit the theme of elona.

    As already pointed out, holosmith does have lore connections with Elona.

    Elona's culture is packed with sun references. They call it "the land of the golden sun", they were naming order after it like "the sunspears", etc.
    The photon forge has been the attempt of the Elonan engineers to harness the power of the sun: light.
    Zephyrite crystals just gave them the magical fuel they needed for their research.

    They made perfect sense for Elona.
    Soulbeast I have to agree on, but revenant in general might get a pass simply because revenants are a new profession. There can be no Elonan traditions towards revenants if revenants haven't been a thing in Elona.

    HoT was the very beginning of elite specs and I think back then they might have just thrown out what they came up with. Many elite specs even looked like they got developed last minute, if you are honest. Scrapper, for example, was supposed to have a completely different theme in the beginning, that much is obvious, and at some point in development they just completely reworked it. It even went so far that almost nothing was finished and polished on the day Anet had announced to show the scrapper to us.

    But PoF might have shown that Anet is willing to intertwine elite specs with the lore of the specific places.
    With the exception of soulbeast and renegade, every elite spec from PoF was hugely inspired by Elonan culture, desert thematics, etc.
    I hope that this trend goes on and they will weave Canthan lore into the new elite specs.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    That's a biased point of view. You could similarly say that holosmith come from the study of the scraps of technology left by scarlet briar after her fall in lion arch without any relationship with elona.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    That's a biased point of view. You could similarly say that holosmith come from the study of the scraps of technology left by scarlet briar after her fall in lion arch without any relationship with elona.

    Except that the holosmith npc, Baraz Sharifi, directly states what I just said.

    A holosmith! Our boundary-pushing feats of invention and engineering have allowed us to harness the power of the sun as a weapon. Impressive, right?
    Elonians have always had a strong relationship with the sun. Then we met the Zephyrites, and everything just clicked.

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2020

    For Necromancer - the Accursed

    Specializing in volatile, yet extremely powerful cureses discovered in ruins of Orr it would serve as a tank duelist spec that specilizes in unique debuffs or buffs that rather than being part of boon/condition relation, are about necro outplaying (or failing to) their enemies. For example:

    Curse of Famine: casted when you use a healing skill. You self apply slow for 2s when using a healing skill (so it's channel is longer).

    Successfully completing the channel despite this handicap will reward 30% stronger heal and 50% more healing from all sources for 5s.
    Failure to complete the healing channel will make healing from all sources 50% less potent than normal for next 5s.

    Curses would be "branded" into utility skill slots and activated with F2 (press F2, then next utility cast will be 'cursed'). You decide when to use cursed or non-cursed version.

    As for the shroud form I would imagine a rather bulky, tanky looking floating wraith with chains hanging from his waist, sleeves, and legs. Shroud form would generally deal with tanking a lot of damage and applying distruption cc (pulls, fear).

    The general idea is that is it to be that one scary, lone wraith/monster, you don't want near you ever and as long as you don't provoke it, it won't have many ways to jump you. But if you do provoke it (by either attacking it or entering it's visibly marked territory) it'll be on you in a flash and standard cheap tactics of dogpiling or kiting will be subject to severe punishment if the Accursed player knows his stuff.

    Gameplay wise, compared to other necro specs

    He would have less aoe damage potential than reaper or scourge, much closer to core. Also his support ability would be lesser than scourges. His supporting is about taking things onto his own shoulders rather than buffing others left and right. In exchange he would boast both highest defense and offence of all specs, but the latter would be for single target scenarios only and provided he makes proper use of his high risk, high reward curses, which can just as easily kill him or gut his damage when executed poorly.

    In PvE the accursed would be excellent bosser, but an average mobber, close to core in terms of the latter, with less forgiving ways to defend himself, but more effective ones than core if they are executed properly. His access to stability would be on pair or better than reaper, but that'd be offest but the fact that his fights would take usually longer than reaper's on average - he won't be an aoe reaping machine that only when faced with bosses needs to make a short stop from continous harvest.

    In PvP he's be that one necro you don't want to jump recklessly - he can be demolished as easy as unproteced scourge if not easier if he fails to set up his defenses properly. But if he does, nothing worse can happen to you in terms of facing a necro. He will boast high survival, high chasing potential and anti burst/dogpiling retalliation mechanics, should he be attacked and use his defensive/curse skills properly.

    In WvW he'd insta get the roamer role. He's no party animal, and is armed to deal with stuff that makes other necro specs cringe (ranged snipes, stealth, insta bursts). He's still high risk and can be killed easy when caught off guard, but if on guard and attacked - he will give his attackers a run for their money, even those that other necro specs can't hope to fight against in a duel.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    Especs are not defined by roles, roles are defined by the theme of the espec, at least ever since PoF (especs will have at least 2 or more defining and different roles).

    I doubt they will release a ‘healer’ espec ever again (e.g. druid), with the amount of options flying around, being restricted to such a role would make the espec way too niche to ever be played, unless the espec was planned to be completely useless from the start. It would be appropriate if said espec had a option for some alternate dps/bruiser/dueler role so it would see some use elsewhere. Switching to an espec which plays vastly differently from what is preferred just to play a very general role (e.g. usually ‘dps’) isn’t really a good argument either.

    My only hope is that they’ve learned from their mishaps and actually design especs that achieve what they were supposedly intended to do (create new options, take away some, have distinct playstyle and different mechanics from core, not have to continually nerf the espec because the concept is broken, etc.).

    There's definitely a degree of truth in this, but I think there are good examples of elite specs that can make pretty good healers (or supports in general) but aren't defined by being the healer as much as druid is. Firebrand, tempest, and renegede are all fairly capable of acting as healers, but can viably perform other roles as well. Druid is... it's pretty much obliged to be a support build. Now, it's worth noting that good support builds are often defined more by what they bring to the table OTHER than healing rather than pure healing output, and druid does bring a good set of buffs as well, but it is a bit pigeonholed.

    However, that doesn't mean we can't say "profession X could do with an elite specialisation that can do Y", as long as Y isn't the only thing the elite specialisation can do. The example of the plaguedoctor engineer, for instance, could be similar to firebrand, having builds suitable both for DPS, support, or some hybrid of the two (similar to condi quickbrand).

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2020

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    That's a biased point of view. You could similarly say that holosmith come from the study of the scraps of technology left by scarlet briar after her fall in lion arch without any relationship with elona.

    All PoF expansion Elite Specs have their origins fully explained in the game by Elite Spec NPCs which all of them said they are of Elona origins with the exception of Renegade being founded recently by the 1st generation of Revenant charr that were channeling into the Mist to see what Charr Legend will appear and aid them.

    The names of the NPCs are...
    Roni Gehianu for Firebrand Origins.
    Gorea Halfcut for Renegade Origins.
    Tamela Okar for Spellbreaker Origins.
    Baraz Sharifi for Holosmith Origins.
    Ebelek Eze for Soulbeast Origins.
    Nakato Ibori for Deadeye Origins.
    Folarin Oyekan for Weaver Origins.
    Nasrin Davish for Mirage Origins.
    Akesi Xuni for Scourage Origins.

    Each one will explain, except for Renegade, that the PoF Elite Spec are of Elona Origins and how they were founded in Elona.

    If they follow this setup again then most likely the Cantha Expansion Elite Spec maybe of Cantha Origin with the only exception being Revenant since that Profession is only recently founded by Rytlock and the Revenant are still within their first generation of members still testing who they can summon from the Mist to aid them.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    That's a biased point of view. You could similarly say that holosmith come from the study of the scraps of technology left by scarlet briar after her fall in lion arch without any relationship with elona.

    All PoF expansion Elite Specs have their origins fully explained in the game by Elite Spec NPCs which all of them said they are of Elona origins with the exception of Renegade being founded recently by the 1st generation of Revenant charr that were channeling into the Mist to see what Charr Legend will appear and aid them.

    The names of the NPCs are...
    Roni Gehianu for Firebrand Origins.
    Gorea Halfcut for Renegade Origins.
    Tamela Okar for Spellbreaker Origins.
    Baraz Sharifi for Holosmith Origins.
    Ebelek Eze for Soulbeast Origins.
    Nakato Ibori for Deadeye Origins.
    Folarin Oyekan for Weaver Origins.
    Nasrin Davish for Mirage Origins.
    Akesi Xuni for Scourage Origins.

    Each one will explain, except for Renegade, that the PoF Elite Spec are of Elona Origins and how they were founded in Elona.

    If they follow this setup again then most likely the Cantha Expansion Elite Spec maybe of Cantha Origin with the only exception being Revenant since that Profession is only recently founded by Rytlock and the Revenant are still within their first generation of members still testing who they can summon from the Mist to aid them.

    Want to point out: Cantha actually has the unique ability to even tie in the revenant class into their lore!

    Ritualists in Cantha were powerful mages which were communing with the mists long before the revenants actively travelled the mists. This class has been an inspiration for the revenant class in the first place, up to the point that they even made revenants blindfold themselves in the game, just like ritualists already did traditionally, since they thought that blindfolding will help them look into the mists instead of their own reality.

    So it could very well be that our revenant friends are going to Cantha and learn some new tricks from the ancient traditions of the ritualists there, making ritualist their new elite spec.
    Cantha also provides some legendary ritualists for revenants to summon.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    That's a biased point of view. You could similarly say that holosmith come from the study of the scraps of technology left by scarlet briar after her fall in lion arch without any relationship with elona.

    All PoF expansion Elite Specs have their origins fully explained in the game by Elite Spec NPCs which all of them said they are of Elona origins with the exception of Renegade being founded recently by the 1st generation of Revenant charr that were channeling into the Mist to see what Charr Legend will appear and aid them.

    The names of the NPCs are...
    Roni Gehianu for Firebrand Origins.
    Gorea Halfcut for Renegade Origins.
    Tamela Okar for Spellbreaker Origins.
    Baraz Sharifi for Holosmith Origins.
    Ebelek Eze for Soulbeast Origins.
    Nakato Ibori for Deadeye Origins.
    Folarin Oyekan for Weaver Origins.
    Nasrin Davish for Mirage Origins.
    Akesi Xuni for Scourage Origins.

    Each one will explain, except for Renegade, that the PoF Elite Spec are of Elona Origins and how they were founded in Elona.

    If they follow this setup again then most likely the Cantha Expansion Elite Spec maybe of Cantha Origin with the only exception being Revenant since that Profession is only recently founded by Rytlock and the Revenant are still within their first generation of members still testing who they can summon from the Mist to aid them.

    Want to point out: Cantha actually has the unique ability to even tie in the revenant class into their lore!

    Ritualists in Cantha were powerful mages which were communing with the mists long before the revenants actively travelled the mists. This class has been an inspiration for the revenant class in the first place, up to the point that they even made revenants blindfold themselves in the game, just like ritualists already did traditionally, since they thought that blindfolding will help them look into the mists instead of their own reality.

    So it could very well be that our revenant friends are going to Cantha and learn some new tricks from the ancient traditions of the ritualists there, making ritualist their new elite spec.
    Cantha also provides some legendary ritualists for revenants to summon.

    Highly doubtful. The lore of the Ritualist is tied with the spirits, underworld, grenth and their rivalry with the necromancer. We will see Ritualist, no doubt, but as a Revenant elite spec? Doesn't fit. You'd have to warp the ritualist to the point its unrecognizable.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2020

    @Lily.1935 said:

    Highly doubtful. The lore of the Ritualist is tied with the spirits, underworld, grenth and their rivalry with the necromancer. We will see Ritualist, no doubt, but as a Revenant elite spec? Doesn't fit. You'd have to warp the ritualist to the point its unrecognizable.

    They may not be Ritualist themselves but there is still possible lore for the Ritualist to be a possible Elite Spec for Cantha expansion as currently has stated that the 1st generation of Revenants are searching the world for locations where the Mists are strongest so they can commune with Legends in the Mist and form pacts with them. Where these spots are located determine how stronger connection with Legends related to the area.

    For Cantha locations, there are many legends that may become the next Elite Spec for Revenant such as Master Togo (Ideal choice in my opinion if they get a Ritualist Elite Spec), Mhenlo (he spent his years after GW1 being the new master of Shing Jea Monastery with his wife Cynn but uncertain what type of Elite spec he maybe for.), and Vizu (potential Assassin type Dual Daggers Elite Spec for Revenant).

    I would consider Razah but he is most likely still alive since he is a immortal manifestation of the Mist but that is another topic for maybe a future storyline.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    Highly doubtful. The lore of the Ritualist is tied with the spirits, underworld, grenth and their rivalry with the necromancer. We will see Ritualist, no doubt, but as a Revenant elite spec? Doesn't fit. You'd have to warp the ritualist to the point its unrecognizable.

    They may not be Ritualist themselves but there is still possible lore for the Ritualist to be a possible Elite Spec for Cantha expansion as currently has stated that the 1st generation of Revenants are searching the world for locations where the Mists are strongest so they can commune with Legends in the Mist and form pacts with them.

    For Cantha locations, there are many legends that may become the next Elite Spec for Revenant such as Master Togo (Ideal choice in my opinion if they get a Ritualist Elite Spec), Mhenlo (he spent his years after GW1 being the new master of Shing Jea Monastery with his wife Cynn bu uncertain what type of Elite spec he maybe for.), and Vizu (potential Assassin type Dual Daggers Elite Spec for Revenant).

    Absolutely. I have a suspicion Ritualist will influence multiple of the classes in Cantha in some way, if not becoming its own profession. And I honestly think that would be the best marketing pitch Arena Net could make.

    "Guild wars 2: Third Expansion. Featuring 9 new elite specs AND the Brand new Ritualist profession!"

    Just imagine the hype and fervor the community would go into? Imagine the heads turning towards GW2 as they introduce a Highly desired Class from the first game that would make GW2 the talk of the MMO community.

    Personally I'd Like them to Do something unique with how they release it if they did it like that. Release the core class only, and over the Living world season release new Elite specs for it to keep engagement and desire for this class extremely high rather than just having a burst of excitement. Granted this is a lot of work, but Would it create a lot of hype and player retention.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    Highly doubtful. The lore of the Ritualist is tied with the spirits, underworld, grenth and their rivalry with the necromancer. We will see Ritualist, no doubt, but as a Revenant elite spec? Doesn't fit. You'd have to warp the ritualist to the point its unrecognizable.

    They may not be Ritualist themselves but there is still possible lore for the Ritualist to be a possible Elite Spec for Cantha expansion as currently has stated that the 1st generation of Revenants are searching the world for locations where the Mists are strongest so they can commune with Legends in the Mist and form pacts with them.

    For Cantha locations, there are many legends that may become the next Elite Spec for Revenant such as Master Togo (Ideal choice in my opinion if they get a Ritualist Elite Spec), Mhenlo (he spent his years after GW1 being the new master of Shing Jea Monastery with his wife Cynn bu uncertain what type of Elite spec he maybe for.), and Vizu (potential Assassin type Dual Daggers Elite Spec for Revenant).

    Absolutely. I have a suspicion Ritualist will influence multiple of the classes in Cantha in some way, if not becoming its own profession. And I honestly think that would be the best marketing pitch Arena Net could make.

    "Guild wars 2: Third Expansion. Featuring 9 new elite specs AND the Brand new Ritualist profession!"

    Just imagine the hype and fervor the community would go into? Imagine the heads turning towards GW2 as they introduce a Highly desired Class from the first game that would make GW2 the talk of the MMO community.

    Personally I'd Like them to Do something unique with how they release it if they did it like that. Release the core class only, and over the Living world season release new Elite specs for it to keep engagement and desire for this class extremely high rather than just having a burst of excitement. Granted this is a lot of work, but Would it create a lot of hype and player retention.

    Now I have to say that it is highly doubtful.

    I know you want ritualist back, since it was your favourite profession from the first Guild Wars. It was mine, too. But Anet created the revenant profession to finally balance out the 3 armor types, since we went years with just 2 heavy armor type classes while the other two armor types had 3 classes each.
    I just don't see them breaking that balance again by introducing a 10th profession in the game.

    Also what you describe here to just release the core profession and then let elite specs for it follow with the living world story would not really create as much hype as you expect, in my opinion.
    Ritualist would feel really underwhelming at the beginning, which would most likely kill the hype for it, just because it can't really compete with the other classes when it comes to versatility. All the other classes would have 3 elite specs to alternate your playstyle, but ritualists would be stuck with just playing core for months, if not years to come?

    I just don't see much reason for them to bring back ritualist as an own profession. Especially after they already translated many of it's unique mechanics into mechanics of other professions, like the engineer.
    Their ashes system is made into kits now. Their spirits became our modern turrets.

    Makig ritualist an elite spec for an existing class like necromancer or revenant is way more likely in my eyes.

  • Elric.4713Elric.4713 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    Want to point out: Cantha actually has the unique ability to even tie in the revenant class into their lore!

    Ritualists in Cantha were powerful mages which were communing with the mists long before the revenants actively travelled the mists. This class has been an inspiration for the revenant class in the first place, up to the point that they even made revenants blindfold themselves in the game, just like ritualists already did traditionally, since they thought that blindfolding will help them look into the mists instead of their own reality.

    So it could very well be that our revenant friends are going to Cantha and learn some new tricks from the ancient traditions of the ritualists there, making ritualist their new elite spec.
    Cantha also provides some legendary ritualists for revenants to summon.

    This. Ritualist for Revenant (or at least heavily Rit inspired) specialization that focuses on Channeling Magic. It's just a perfect fit with Revenant being thematically heavily inspired by the Ritualist in the first place.

    👻Legendary Ritualist Stance - Invoke the power of the legendary ritualist Master Togo.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Elric.4713 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    Want to point out: Cantha actually has the unique ability to even tie in the revenant class into their lore!

    Ritualists in Cantha were powerful mages which were communing with the mists long before the revenants actively travelled the mists. This class has been an inspiration for the revenant class in the first place, up to the point that they even made revenants blindfold themselves in the game, just like ritualists already did traditionally, since they thought that blindfolding will help them look into the mists instead of their own reality.

    So it could very well be that our revenant friends are going to Cantha and learn some new tricks from the ancient traditions of the ritualists there, making ritualist their new elite spec.
    Cantha also provides some legendary ritualists for revenants to summon.

    This. Ritualist for Revenant (or at least heavily Rit inspired) specialization that focuses on Channeling Magic. It's just a perfect fit with Revenant being thematically heavily inspired by the Ritualist in the first place.

    Ritualist is a bad fit for revenant. It would he yet another Support elite spec which revenant already has 2. Plus you have to Butcher the ritualist to get it to fit.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    Highly doubtful. The lore of the Ritualist is tied with the spirits, underworld, grenth and their rivalry with the necromancer. We will see Ritualist, no doubt, but as a Revenant elite spec? Doesn't fit. You'd have to warp the ritualist to the point its unrecognizable.

    They may not be Ritualist themselves but there is still possible lore for the Ritualist to be a possible Elite Spec for Cantha expansion as currently has stated that the 1st generation of Revenants are searching the world for locations where the Mists are strongest so they can commune with Legends in the Mist and form pacts with them.

    For Cantha locations, there are many legends that may become the next Elite Spec for Revenant such as Master Togo (Ideal choice in my opinion if they get a Ritualist Elite Spec), Mhenlo (he spent his years after GW1 being the new master of Shing Jea Monastery with his wife Cynn bu uncertain what type of Elite spec he maybe for.), and Vizu (potential Assassin type Dual Daggers Elite Spec for Revenant).

    Absolutely. I have a suspicion Ritualist will influence multiple of the classes in Cantha in some way, if not becoming its own profession. And I honestly think that would be the best marketing pitch Arena Net could make.

    "Guild wars 2: Third Expansion. Featuring 9 new elite specs AND the Brand new Ritualist profession!"

    Just imagine the hype and fervor the community would go into? Imagine the heads turning towards GW2 as they introduce a Highly desired Class from the first game that would make GW2 the talk of the MMO community.

    Personally I'd Like them to Do something unique with how they release it if they did it like that. Release the core class only, and over the Living world season release new Elite specs for it to keep engagement and desire for this class extremely high rather than just having a burst of excitement. Granted this is a lot of work, but Would it create a lot of hype and player retention.

    Now I have to say that it is highly doubtful.

    I know you want ritualist back, since it was your favourite profession from the first Guild Wars. It was mine, too. But Anet created the revenant profession to finally balance out the 3 armor types, since we went years with just 2 heavy armor type classes while the other two armor types had 3 classes each.
    I just don't see them breaking that balance again by introducing a 10th profession in the game.

    Also what you describe here to just release the core profession and then let elite specs for it follow with the living world story would not really create as much hype as you expect, in my opinion.
    Ritualist would feel really underwhelming at the beginning, which would most likely kill the hype for it, just because it can't really compete with the other classes when it comes to versatility. All the other classes would have 3 elite specs to alternate your playstyle, but ritualists would be stuck with just playing core for months, if not years to come?

    I just don't see much reason for them to bring back ritualist as an own profession. Especially after they already translated many of it's unique mechanics into mechanics of other professions, like the engineer.
    Their ashes system is made into kits now. Their spirits became our modern turrets.

    Makig ritualist an elite spec for an existing class like necromancer or revenant is way more likely in my eyes.

    Made a long post only for my phone to bug and be like "Nuh, girl. Delete! Hahaha" very sad... I don't want to type it all out again so I'll abridge it.

    I believe a new class would generate more external hype than elite specs while new elite specs probably would be more internal hype. But I don't know that for sure.

    My favorite class from GW1 was the necromancer. Not ritualist, ritualist was my third. Order being Necromancer, Mesmer, Ritualist then Dervish.

    Necromancer has been almost a complete disappointment in GW2 but I have no home in gw2 for my favorite playstyle so it remains my favorite in spite of my numerous complaints.

    Mesmer just barely makes the top 5 in gw2 due to its hybridized playstyle with Assassin and mesmer from gw1 and its overall lack of control in comparison to its gw1 counterpart as well as compared to GW2 necromancer.

    Ritualist was my third because of my love of its support builds in just how different they were and it was my favorite secondary for necro in gw1. In gw2 the closest that gets to its playstyle I enjoyed from gw1 is scourge healer and to a lesser extent condi scourge has some similarities with SoS rit.

    Dervish was probably the only melee class I really enjoyed in gw1 and a lot of what I loved about it is reflected in the revenant of all things.

    Note my perspective on the classes is based on mechanical feel to me and you might not feel the same way about them and that's okay.

    For GW2 my favorite classes are ordered like this:
    1. Necromancer
    2. Engineer
    3. Guardian
    4. Revenant
    5. Mesmer
    6. Elementalist
    7. Ranger
    8. Thief
    9. Warrior

    Revenant and Guardian are extremely close... it could swap extremely easily.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2020

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Elric.4713 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    Want to point out: Cantha actually has the unique ability to even tie in the revenant class into their lore!

    Ritualists in Cantha were powerful mages which were communing with the mists long before the revenants actively travelled the mists. This class has been an inspiration for the revenant class in the first place, up to the point that they even made revenants blindfold themselves in the game, just like ritualists already did traditionally, since they thought that blindfolding will help them look into the mists instead of their own reality.

    So it could very well be that our revenant friends are going to Cantha and learn some new tricks from the ancient traditions of the ritualists there, making ritualist their new elite spec.
    Cantha also provides some legendary ritualists for revenants to summon.

    This. Ritualist for Revenant (or at least heavily Rit inspired) specialization that focuses on Channeling Magic. It's just a perfect fit with Revenant being thematically heavily inspired by the Ritualist in the first place.

    Ritualist is a bad fit for revenant. It would he yet another Support elite spec which revenant already has 2. Plus you have to Butcher the ritualist to get it to fit.

    A ritualist doesn't necessarily have to be a support. Healing support might have been your favourite playstyle in guild wars for that class (if I am interpreting it correctly here), but ritualist's actual niche was that it was a jack of all trades. You could play ritualist as a healing support, but also as a great damage dealer (especially with spirits) and there was also the potential to play them as melee bruiser!

    Stuff like their weapon spells, which gave them additional survivability by mechanics like blocks, healing, etc. The elite spell spirit's strength made them deal additional damage while under the effect of a weapon spell and you had to be a primary ritualist to get the full potential out of that.
    Other spells, like Vengeful was Khanhei, let you tank hoards of enemies since you were stealing health from every enemy hitting you.

    Ritualists can get used for support elite spec. But they can also represent dps elite specs or even bruisers. And the bruiser approach would actually be my favourite, they could give the revenant something that resembles the weapon spells from the first game, being able to enchant their own weapons with effects helping them to survive in the middle of the enemy, for example.

    About your point that we have to warp it to the point it is unrecognisable: That is bound to happen, yes. GW2 is a compleely different game with completely different mechanics. Even if they would introduce ritualist as an own profession, it won't be like their GW1 alter ego at all. Look what they did with necromancer or mesmer. These classes existed in GW1, too, but do they actually play like these in GW2? They are very different.

    What I am caring for to transport over to GW2 is the thematic of the ritualist. An ancient spirit communer that uses souls to strengthen weapons with magical power. This is the thematic I am looking for. Spirits were fun and what I played my ritualist most with in GW1, but we already have turrets and the renegade doing something similar, that thematic is not needed that badly for me. What I am missing are the weapon spells.

  • HotDelirium.7984HotDelirium.7984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2020

    Ranger- I want an "Alpha" so the roles are inverted and you control the bigger version of your pet and the "Pet skills" are similiar to commands so almost like pokemon.

    Mesmer- "Veilborn" after concerted effort one of your clones becomes permanent and that's the "character". You sacrifice the ability to shatter for maybe permaboons (like guardians aegis), maybe double-dagger capabilities, boon corruption and boon sacrificing for greater effects since their not a "real" person

    Elementalist- since we logically have a more concentrated version of the elements (Tempest) and the mixing of elements (weaver) I suggest adding a new element: space and gravity. Inspired by Liadri the Concealing Dark, they would be a hardcore CC spec, slamming people with dark matter and summoning black holes etc.

    Engineer- I want a fun- light-hearted spec like Sous Chef- splattering crippling cake-batter, buffing people with sweets (like the Bday gun), and cutting those deep like Gordon Ramsey.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:
    Engineer- I want a fun- light-hearted spec like Sous Chef- splattering crippling cake-batter, buffing people with sweets (like the Bday gun), and cutting those deep like Gordon Ramsey.

    I would just hate if Anet made our next elite spec a walking joke....

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2020

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Elric.4713 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    Want to point out: Cantha actually has the unique ability to even tie in the revenant class into their lore!

    Ritualists in Cantha were powerful mages which were communing with the mists long before the revenants actively travelled the mists. This class has been an inspiration for the revenant class in the first place, up to the point that they even made revenants blindfold themselves in the game, just like ritualists already did traditionally, since they thought that blindfolding will help them look into the mists instead of their own reality.

    So it could very well be that our revenant friends are going to Cantha and learn some new tricks from the ancient traditions of the ritualists there, making ritualist their new elite spec.
    Cantha also provides some legendary ritualists for revenants to summon.

    This. Ritualist for Revenant (or at least heavily Rit inspired) specialization that focuses on Channeling Magic. It's just a perfect fit with Revenant being thematically heavily inspired by the Ritualist in the first place.

    Ritualist is a bad fit for revenant. It would he yet another Support elite spec which revenant already has 2. Plus you have to Butcher the ritualist to get it to fit.

    A ritualist doesn't necessarily have to be a support. Healing support might have been your favourite playstyle in guild wars for that class (if I am interpreting it correctly here), but ritualist's actual niche was that it was a jack of all trades. You could play ritualist as a healing support, but also as a great damage dealer (especially with spirits) and there was also the potential to play them as melee bruiser!

    Stuff like their weapon spells, which gave them additional survivability by mechanics like blocks, healing, etc. The elite spell spirit's strength made them deal additional damage while under the effect of a weapon spell and you had to be a primary ritualist to get the full potential out of that.
    Other spells, like Vengeful was Khanhei, let you tank hoards of enemies since you were stealing health from every enemy hitting you.

    Ritualists can get used for support elite spec. But they can also represent dps elite specs or even bruisers. And the bruiser approach would actually be my favourite, they could give the revenant something that resembles the weapon spells from the first game, being able to enchant their own weapons with effects helping them to survive in the middle of the enemy, for example.

    About your point that we have to warp it to the point it is unrecognisable: That is bound to happen, yes. GW2 is a compleely different game with completely different mechanics. Even if they would introduce ritualist as an own profession, it won't be like their GW1 alter ego at all. Look what they did with necromancer or mesmer. These classes existed in GW1, too, but do they actually play like these in GW2? They are very different.

    What I am caring for to transport over to GW2 is the thematic of the ritualist. An ancient spirit communer that uses souls to strengthen weapons with magical power. This is the thematic I am looking for. Spirits were fun and what I played my ritualist most with in GW1, but we already have turrets and the renegade doing something similar, that thematic is not needed that badly for me. What I am missing are the weapon spells.

    Actually healer wasn't my favorite. It was Soul Twisting protector that I really enjoyed. But you have to remember that weapon spells were damage support. Ritualist was anything but a jack of all trades. They were very bad at DPS. You could make it work but they were far better at bursts of damage a opposed to sustained damage but. And their DPS specs were fragile to say the least. I've played their Destructive urns builds, their spirit spam builds and their ghostly strength builds. The SoS was the least fragile but lacked in damage. As much as people think it was good damage, it wasn't. Just consistent and provided the party with field control through body blocking. Because of this the DPS ritualist would often act as a puller for backline focused teams to funnel foes I to the spirits to prevent movement to the back line opening them up to large bursts while providing a solid consistent damage.

    Now their high damage builds, the destructive urns build and the ghostly strength were extremely fragile. Without spirits the ritualist isn't all that defensive. They have weapon spells to help but most break on one attack. So Ghostly strength was better in PvP while in PvE it was extremely rare. Destructive urns on the other hand was used in 55 farming and in DoA because it could quickly burst damage. But its sustain damage was lacking. And it still required some puller to lock the foes in place so they could come in and clean up.

    Weapon spells were all support skills unless I'm forgetting one or two that weren't. And their intended design was to be used as sort of a DPS support for many of them to aid allies in their damage output.

    Spirits were also mostly Support. Some were control and some damage but that wasn't the bulk of them. Ritualist has 2 primary support lines in communing and Restoration with only channelling magic being really about DPS.

    Not only that the ritualist was added to GW1 as an alternative to the monk. It was the second healer and was supposed to fill that role. To no fault of it's own necromancer did it better using their skills but that's because Soul reaping was busted and the ritualist had to jump through far too many hoops to get going. But the intention of the ritualist was and always will have been a support class.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    About your point that we have to warp it to the point it is unrecognisable: That is bound to happen, yes. GW2 is a compleely different game with completely different mechanics. Even if they would introduce ritualist as an own profession, it won't be like their GW1 alter ego at all. Look what they did with necromancer or mesmer. These classes existed in GW1, too, but do they actually play like these in GW2? They are very different.

    But Warrior, ranger and to some extent elementalist all have very similar play feel to gw1. The mechanics of the game are not as divergent as you think and a player who enjoys a hunter from WoW will be right at home on a ranger in GW2. Play feel matters and it's hard to explain. But when I say Condi scourge feels a lot like SoS ritualist, I mean it feels like SoS ritualist. Both require maintenance of their 'totems', both are Damage over time, both use some form of field control, both tend to provide minor support to allies.

    They're not a 1 for 1. And what feels similar to me you might feel they're too divergent. Such as the focus on Epidemic, or the lack of shooting blobs of ectoplasm, the ability to attack in conjunction with their totems as opposed to the ritualist who rarely does.

    For me, it feels like the evolution makes sense. That given the evolved mechanics and complexity of gw2 this is how the ritualist could go for its form of DPS.

    If you don't feel like they are similar, you're valid in that feeling. However you need to recognize that my feelings on it as someone who's played over 6k hours of GW1 and 8k hours of GW2, the similarities I noticed are also valid.

    There is a reason why people tend to gravitate towards specific classes when starting up new games even if their mechanics are divergent.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    What I am caring for to transport over to GW2 is the thematic of the ritualist. An ancient spirit communer that uses souls to strengthen weapons with magical power. This is the thematic I am looking for. Spirits were fun and what I played my ritualist most with in GW1, but we already have turrets and the renegade doing something similar, that thematic is not needed that badly for me. What I am missing are the weapon spells.

    Except that while they have the Mists in common, and blindfolds, that's about all they have in common.

    We've already had a ritualist-like revenant elite spec and, honestly, I think it'd be a waste for ArenaNet to waste the potential of the revenant to have another elite spec that's basically just a different ritualist-like playstyle. Revenant can draw inspiration from pretty much anything, including entities that are well outside of the normal range of mortal professions. It should go for the things that just don't fit well anywhere else.

    Additionally, core revenant does not mesh well with classic ritualist. The martial weapons of the core revenant make it a soldier profession at heart, and the only core legend with any form of ritualist feel is Ventari. Core necromancer in GW2, however, has moved more into the spectral realm, and therefore already seems to have already absorbed elements that were, in GW1, firmly in the ritualist's domain. Spectral claws striking at the enemy from beyond (axe, focus, staff auto) seem very on-brand to me, and marks don't seem that off-brand either. Spectral skills fit the ritualist theme to a T, there's the Shadow Fiend, and even wells and corruptions aren't really that far off brand (a well can be considered to be equivalent to one of those spirits which have an effect in a radius around them just without the actual spirit being able to be attacked, and corruptions play into the ritualist being the other GW1 profession that could sacrifice health to generate effects. GW2 just has the sacrifice in the form of conditions instead). Corporeal minions might not fit the themes as well, but do provide for a bunch of substitutes for spirits that follow you around automatically (apart from Flesh Wurm) rather than needing to be teleported around through a PvE-only skill... and with GW1's secondary profession mechanic, Rt/N Spawning Power minionmancers were a thing, although they generally weren't considered as efficient as primary necromancers

    If there's some element of ritualist you really want in GW2, I think it would be a better fit layered onto necromancer as an elite specialisation rather than trying to shoehorn it into revenant. GW2 Necromancer already provides a core that has many of the same themes, options, and strengths as GW1 ritualist did, allowing the player to either go all in on what the specialisation brings or to mix and match different themes just like a GW1-style ritualist could (yes, a ritualist COULD specialise into a particular theme... but it could also have a build that combined several, and many of its skills had synergies between skill types that encouraged this). Bolting it onto ritualist... well, first, if it's weapon spells or whatever it might be, you're going to have a set five that you're always going to have while running the legend with no ability to customise, because that's how revenant works. And unless you're running Ventari (which pretty much locks you into support if not straight healing), you're going to inevitably be swapping into something that feels more like a dervish or an assassin than a ritualist.

    Any effort to recreate the ritualist through an elite specialisation is going to work a lot better on a necromancer core than a revenant, simply because the GW2 core necromancer is a lot closer to the GW1 ritualist in terms of playstyle and what sort of skills it brings to the table than the revenant is. Add it to the necromancer, and it can be integrated with the necromancer core in a way that feels like a fairly seemless fit except that the skill effects are mostly black and green rather than teal. Add it to revenant, and it's likely to end up feeling like a stitchup that might spend half its time behaving like a ritualist, but is expected to regularly swap to another playstyle which, if not support-oriented Ventari, is designed to go into close combat.

    There's already one ritualist-like elite spec for revenant. Let the revenant do its own thing.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2020

    This is my wishlist themes:

    Warrior: Staff offensive and medium support burn control and and buffs while afected by fire, mantra based style where each mantra represents a fighting style, suppor, offensive, hybrid, warrior f2 would put warrior with monkey king combat animation and style for x seconds. increasing mobility and buffs when being burned.
    Ranger: Hammer, basicly a bunny thumper from gw1 with sumons, snare, cc, aoe pressure and support depending the summon.(trait to make sumons have defiance bar, wrecking ball elite where could rmeove stability from enemies with a rush ability, each utilities would be a summon, wheere each summon would create new utility bar skill just like rev has with the legends).
    Rev: Greatsword, melee and mobility + counter based, punishing player that atack mindless and spammy, with some aoe damage control abilities.
    Guardian: sword offhand , mobility plus burn based utilites and offhand.
    Necromander: rifle long range CC debuffer, that can inflect anemies to explode when they die, poison and miasma spceciality.
    Engenier: axe or torch, medium melee to high range, utilities are mods where engie can create several efefects on its new elite spec weapon.
    Mesmer: dagger, ilusionist assassin :) based on mirrors and aoe fields, creating a copy of enemy to atack it as well.
    Thief: focus ninja x) not much being said they keep stealth as usual, stealth and mobnbility nerfed outside this spec, buffed in this new elite spec, shadow control would allow for thief with its new elite to move within the shadows and avoid damage even while on aoe bombs, smoke field specialist and gaining diferent bonus when targets are poiosoned, dazed or blinded.

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    But Warrior, ranger and to some extent elementalist all have very similar play feel to gw1.

    No, just no. Especially for the ranger, be it pet builds, trap builds, spirit builds, interrupt builds, preparation's builds, touch builds... etc. There is not a shred of play feel in gw2's ranger alike to gw1's. And it's true for all gw2's professions, the 2 games are just way to different for anyone to claim that there is similar play feel.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    But Warrior, ranger and to some extent elementalist all have very similar play feel to gw1.

    No, just no. Especially for the ranger, be it pet builds, trap builds, spirit builds, interrupt builds, preparation's builds, touch builds... etc. There is not a shred of play feel in gw2's ranger alike to gw1's. And it's true for all gw2's professions, the 2 games are just way to different for anyone to claim that there is similar play feel.

    You misunderstand. You can generally determine what people will enjoy based on what they enjoy in other games. I can make recommendations to people based on what they enjoyed in say WoW or even Dungeons and Dragons.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    But Warrior, ranger and to some extent elementalist all have very similar play feel to gw1.

    No, just no. Especially for the ranger, be it pet builds, trap builds, spirit builds, interrupt builds, preparation's builds, touch builds... etc. There is not a shred of play feel in gw2's ranger alike to gw1's. And it's true for all gw2's professions, the 2 games are just way to different for anyone to claim that there is similar play feel.

    You misunderstand. You can generally determine what people will enjoy based on what they enjoy in other games. I can make recommendations to people based on what they enjoyed in say WoW or even Dungeons and Dragons.

    I think that's a valid point to make. For me, the playstyles I enjoyed with ranger, warrior, and elementalist in GW1 just don't transfer even in principle to their GW2 equivalents... but if I was to encourage someone to play a warrior or a ranger in GW1 based off my knowledge of their preferences, I would probably do so in GW2 as well, unless one of the new GW2 professions was a better fit. Elementalist... depends. GW2 elementalist is pretty committed to being a master of all four (if not necessarily at the same time) so if someone really wants to use a specific element, I might not necessarily encourage them to play elementalist in GW2.

    Mesmer... while they're not completely different by any stretch, they do have very different focuses. GW1 mesmer is mostly about mental magic, countering enemy magic, and direct manipulation of magical energy. GW2 mesmer, on the other hand, is more of a summoner/illusionist archetype (in fact, if you've seen the discussion of what the Utopia Summoner was to be, it's basically what phantasms do now) with arcane utility effects (teleports, slow and haste effects, protective fields) and offensive spells formed from generic magical energy (although the graphics are sufficiently lightning-like that if someone really wanted to play a lightning mage in GW2, I would probably direct them to mesmer). A lot of the settings do roll these two themes together, and in Guild Wars I think the distinction is at least as much due to GW2 having different mechanics to GW1 than due to any reimagining of what the mesmer is, but I can certainly see cases where I might recommend someone to play a GW1 mesmer but the GW2 mesmer would not be as good a fit for what they want, or vice versa.

  • HotDelirium.7984HotDelirium.7984 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:
    Engineer- I want a fun- light-hearted spec like Sous Chef- splattering crippling cake-batter, buffing people with sweets (like the Bday gun), and cutting those deep like Gordon Ramsey.

    I would just hate if Anet made our next elite spec a walking joke....

    I said fun and light-hearted. I'm sure they won't make that but Sous Chef's are certainly not a walking joke.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:
    Engineer- I want a fun- light-hearted spec like Sous Chef- splattering crippling cake-batter, buffing people with sweets (like the Bday gun), and cutting those deep like Gordon Ramsey.

    I would just hate if Anet made our next elite spec a walking joke....

    I said fun and light-hearted. I'm sure they won't make that but Sous Chef's are certainly not a walking joke.

    How many Sous Chef's do you see running around throwing batter and sweets at people while they are fighting for their lives?
    It's a joke.

  • HotDelirium.7984HotDelirium.7984 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:
    Engineer- I want a fun- light-hearted spec like Sous Chef- splattering crippling cake-batter, buffing people with sweets (like the Bday gun), and cutting those deep like Gordon Ramsey.

    I would just hate if Anet made our next elite spec a walking joke....

    I said fun and light-hearted. I'm sure they won't make that but Sous Chef's are certainly not a walking joke.

    How many Sous Chef's do you see running around throwing batter and sweets at people while they are fighting for their lives?
    It's a joke.

    Have you not seen Iron Chef?! lol this game has plenty of humor to warrant it. Somebody needs a cookie...

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    But Warrior, ranger and to some extent elementalist all have very similar play feel to gw1.

    No, just no. Especially for the ranger, be it pet builds, trap builds, spirit builds, interrupt builds, preparation's builds, touch builds... etc. There is not a shred of play feel in gw2's ranger alike to gw1's. And it's true for all gw2's professions, the 2 games are just way to different for anyone to claim that there is similar play feel.

    You misunderstand. You can generally determine what people will enjoy based on what they enjoy in other games. I can make recommendations to people based on what they enjoyed in say WoW or even Dungeons and Dragons.

    I think that's a valid point to make. For me, the playstyles I enjoyed with ranger, warrior, and elementalist in GW1 just don't transfer even in principle to their GW2 equivalents... but if I was to encourage someone to play a warrior or a ranger in GW1 based off my knowledge of their preferences, I would probably do so in GW2 as well, unless one of the new GW2 professions was a better fit. Elementalist... depends. GW2 elementalist is pretty committed to being a master of all four (if not necessarily at the same time) so if someone really wants to use a specific element, I might not necessarily encourage them to play elementalist in GW2.

    Mesmer... while they're not completely different by any stretch, they do have very different focuses. GW1 mesmer is mostly about mental magic, countering enemy magic, and direct manipulation of magical energy. GW2 mesmer, on the other hand, is more of a summoner/illusionist archetype (in fact, if you've seen the discussion of what the Utopia Summoner was to be, it's basically what phantasms do now) with arcane utility effects (teleports, slow and haste effects, protective fields) and offensive spells formed from generic magical energy (although the graphics are sufficiently lightning-like that if someone really wanted to play a lightning mage in GW2, I would probably direct them to mesmer). A lot of the settings do roll these two themes together, and in Guild Wars I think the distinction is at least as much due to GW2 having different mechanics to GW1 than due to any reimagining of what the mesmer is, but I can certainly see cases where I might recommend someone to play a GW1 mesmer but the GW2 mesmer would not be as good a fit for what they want, or vice versa.

    Let's talk about mesmer for a second. Because it's a class I want to love but just doesn't sell itself well for me personally.

    I understand that not everything of the mesmer could be translated. Mesmer was very much about exhausting resources which isn't a thing. It's a shame that's lost and the closest thing in GW2 that comes close to that is a condi reaper with its Chill and weakness spam. And it's not really comparable.

    But other elements of the Mesmer are under represented on the class. And part of that is a pulling back on their balance to make them less control focused and more deceptive. Now, I don't think that playstyle is a problem, it's fun in it's own right. Deceptive gameplay is in the mesmer flavor. But they're lacking in the more frustrating and controlling elements of that.

    Like the Mesmer doesn't really use the clones anymore as these sort of bizarre punishment sort of things. Like the mesmer used to have a trait where if the clone was killed they'd pop and deal damage and cause conditions. This was cool and in line with the deceptive and controlling aspects of the mesmer. But they moved away to streamline the mesmer which is good and bad in some ways.

    You don't get to see the mesmer really play with that sort of idea where if a foe kills a clone suddenly they get Frozen in place and take damage for a second and I feel design like this is strongly missing.

    Mesmer has some mass disruption but nothing beyond other classes and especially not beyond say a necromancer. You have Gravity well which is great, but we lack in other more common areas.

    I've mentioned before how being a foil shouldn't fall squarely on one class. And how Necromancer often acts as a foil. If you missed that post, a foil, as I define it, is a class which acts as a check to the strongest builds and strategies that is often focused on heavy control and stripping of defenses. Mesmer should be another foil with necromancer as should Spellbreaker. It should reward smart play and an intimate understanding of the meta to crack their weaknesses. Mesmers are frequently the ones needing to be cracked.

    As for an elite spec which is why I'm rambling on. A ranged spec with these more controlling elements that use disruption and deception that the profession has lost from both GW1 and through the balancing of GW2.

    I'd like to see some elements of GW1 adopted, such as Fevered Dreams and Fragility, but considering Necromancer adopted Epidemic and the fact that Livia apparently has Fragility it seems more likely these elements will be given to necromancer.

    AoE temporary Hex like fields would work very well on Mesmer as a replacement for Shatters that they can warp the field with extended duration based on number of shattered clones would create a unique gameplay with them of "do I want to use this skill. They could use Empathy and I could deal massive damage to myself" or something like that.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, I don't disagree. Conceptually, I think the mesmer is supposed to encompass both resource manipulation and deception, but in practice, GW1 didn't allow for much space for deception, while GW2 doesn't have a universal resource to manipulate apart from skill recharge. GW1 also allows for highly specialised skills (such as adrenaline denial which in the original release only worked against warriors) while GW2 usually doesn't have space for skills that specifically target a particular profession, especially since NPCs don't formally have professions according to game mechanics in GW2 (even if a lot of them obviously are members of specific professions thematically).

    Hex fields kinda sound like what some of the glamours were originally trying to do. Want to use projectiles? Feedback will send those projectiles back at your face. Want to use boons and conditions? Null Field says hi. Mind you, there could be room to have other things in this sort of theme. For instance, consider things like Kalla's spirits, particularly the elite and the bleed spirit that practically nobody uses - mesmers might be able to summon something equivalent, but instead of linking to allies to buff them, it links to enemies and generates an effect when the enemy sets of a particular trigger. Fragility, for instance, could become an example that causes enemies under its influence to take damage whenever they gain or lose a condition, which can be countered by destroying the entity that's generating the effect or moving out of its zone, while an Empathy might cause the player to receive a proportion of the damage they dish out (similar to GW1 Pain Inverter).

    (I would note that I don't think Livia using Fragility necessarily means that it's moving into GW2 necromancer - GW2 Livia seems like she's (still) a full N/Me, and possibly has other abilities given that ArenaNet has indicated that the main barrier in the present day to learning multiple professions is having the time to do so. IIRC, she uses illusion in Sea of Sorrows as well.)