Loot box = gambling ?

What will happen to gw2 when the new law come in power ?everything in the game is some sort of loot box or gambling system

I wait to see all governments to vote an anti gambling and lootbox law. But I wonder if it will happens in this century before 2100. Those shady practises are growing, but hey, it is very simple, the less peoples will buy keys, the less they will think they can continue their rng black chest.

Frankly I don't really care about bl chest, your choice to be addict or not, to try your luck or not but I agree it tricks your brain into a doom spiral.

I'm way far more angry toward the recent items locked behind rng with almost null dropchances: smoke shaman, cloudseeker and choya pinata are good example. frankly novelties like tonics? Where are we going?

RNG is fine in game, It doesn't class as gambling but Black lion chests most definitely do.Honestly, I'd be happy to see them go, I'm not a fan of these kind of money grabbing tactics. Just have the new things put straight into the gem store.

No idea.. I try to avoid politics here but that's kind of impossible regarding this subject.

I'm against this law personally, I see it as an overstep of power and this is something world governments shouldn't have the right to do.

That said I understand why they are doing it.. there are unfortuantely a number of greedy, predatory companies in this industry that have regularly and consistently abused the concept of lootboxes to rip people off and bank millions in the process.I do not need to name names on who those companies are, pretty much every gamer knows who they are at this point.

Anet however is not one of those companies and I have defended Gw2's lootboxes on multiple occasions because of how easily accessable they are even to people who don't want to pay for them.(getting 3 free keys a week with a 1-60 personal storyrun is easy, but if you're willing to farm you can get as many as you like since the level 40 and 60 keys are not timegate locked like the level 10 weekly key is.)

Black Lion Chests imo are one of the best examples of Lootboxes done right! and I do not want to see Anet and Gw2 have to suffer due to what I would describe as an authoritarian-esque law that shouldn't even exist just because there are some bad companies out there (most on the other side of the planet) that abuse their consumers.

When innocents are punished because of the crimes of others purely on the basis that they share traits.. (in this case compaines that use a the same monetization concept in different ways that have a distinct fair and abuse ratio to seperate them)That's called collective punishment and I shouldn't have to explain how awful and immoral that concept is to anyone in this day and age.Innocents should never have to pay for the sins of the guilty!

The only companies that should be punished for the abuse of lootboxes are the companies that abuse lootboxes.If governments want to fight this lootbox problem then that's how they should do it, go after individual companies that abuse this monetization concept and punish them for their greed and abuse of power while leaving fair and non predatory companies like Anet out of it.

Lootboxes are not the problem.. Greedy companies that abuse them are.We can't blame a tool because some bad people misuse it.

Just adding this in as well, I personally really dislike gambling.I hate casinos to the point where I won't even set foot in one.I get why people are angry and have a strong dislike for lootboxes, I am more or less in the same ballpark there.I'm also not afraid to give up on a game series that I love because of a monitization practice that I take issue with either.I've been very vocal among the threads on here regarding subscription fees and how against it I am.. and that applies to all games.Many of my favourite Nintendo IP's with online multiplayer I no longer support anymore because of Switch online having a mandatory subfee.. and no it's got nothing to do with the price, I just hate the concept and refuse to support it.

So for someone like me to defend lookboxs in Gw2 doesn't come from any bias or loyalty I have to the game.It's comes from the way Anet has handled them in Gw2... and by my own opinion and experience with them I consider them to be very fair, easily accessable without requiring a monetary transaction and definitely not predatory.So that's why I defend them and will continue to defend them unless that all changes.

I hope the practice goes away forever.RNG prizes for ingame activities is kind of okay, but not when there's real money in there. just sell the damn items in the gemstore.

Anet will sidestep the laws through two technicalities.

(1): The Gold to Gem conversion means that keys can be bought and used solely through in-game effort. This doesn't make chests gambling any more than anything else in the game.(2): When you open a chest, you're getting a statuette with some additional bonus items. This constitutes, at the minimum, a guaranteed purchase. It doesn't count as gambling because of this.

@hugo.4705 said:your choice to be addict or not

That's literally not how addiction works.

@Solanum.6983 said:RNG is fine in game, It doesn't class as gambling

Technically, with the Gems to Gold system, a lot more in-game stuff can be considered gambling in GW2 as you have the ability to pay real money for RNG chances at things.

Most notably, Gems > Gold > Exotics to throw into the Mystic Toilet for Precursor chances.

@Teratus.2859 said:I'm against this law personally, I see it as an overstep of power and this is something world governments shouldn't have the right to do.

Governments have the right to restrict gambling. Hence Gambling laws, age restrictions, taxes etc.

Lootboxes that can be purchased with real money is literally gambling.

Ergo, governments should have a right to restrict lootboxes in the same way that literally every other form of gambling is restricted.

@Teratus.2859 said:When innocents are punished because of the crimes of others purely on the basis that they share traits..

There are no innocents when there are in game lootboxes purchasable via real money.

All companies that do this are equally to blame for utilizing this predatory practice that looks to exploit a serious addiction in order to line their pockets.

Since that's the only reason to use this mechanic over just making items direct purchases, because you earn more money out of addicts and whales by using RNG lootboxes where the average price is increased due to RNG and hidden allowing more people to get suckered in to gambling with them.

It doesn't matter the availability of lootboxes for "Free" in a game, it still comes down to they're trying to profit off the exploitation of others when they're available for real money alongside them.

@Svetli.4276 said:What will happen to gw2 when the new law come in power ?everything in the game is some sort of loot box or gambling system

if the scope of the law covers enough that Anet can't go around it with things such as what @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Anet will sidestep the laws through two technicalities.

(1): The Gold to Gem conversion means that keys can be bought and used solely through in-game effort. This doesn't make chests gambling any more than anything else in the game.(2): When you open a chest, you're getting a statuette with some additional bonus items. This constitutes, at the minimum, a guaranteed purchase. It doesn't count as gambling because of this.

then we might see the cash shop go away for most of EU like what happened to Belgium (who already went ahead of everyone)

personally i'm alright with the lootboxes or the RNG or whatever, but i wouldn't cry or complain if the cash shop disappears either and if more players will be happier with no lootboxes or no cash shop or less RNG, then that's wonderful as well~ in any case, life goes on =)

@Teratus.2859 said:Anet however is not one of those companies and I have defended Gw2's lootboxes on multiple occasions because of how easily accessable they are even to people who don't want to pay for them.(getting 3 free keys a week with a 1-60 personal storyrun is easy, but if you're willing to farm you can get as many as you like since the level 40 and 60 keys are not timegate locked like the level 10 weekly key is.)

Black Lion Chests imo are one of the best examples of Lootboxes done right! and I do not want to see Anet and Gw2 have to suffer due to what I would describe as an authoritarian-esque law that shouldn't even exist just because there are some bad companies out there (most on the other side of the planet) that abuse their consumers.

When innocents are punished because of the crimes of others purely on the basis that they share traits.. (in this case compaines that use a the same monetization concept in different ways that have a distinct fair and abuse ratio to seperate them)

The high value items in Black Lion Chests are not guaranteed but have a very low random drop rate.Keys are bought with gems, gems are bought with real money. This is buying lootboxes with real money and Anet is not innocent.

That fact is not changed because you can get a few free keys with playing the story or that you can get some keys with RNG or that rich players can convert their gold to gems.

My guess is: Most BLCs are opened with keys that were bought with gems that were bought with real money.

To be innocent Anet has to show proof (they have the internal numbers) that buying keys (with gems) with real money does not happen very often.

I wish all items, mounts and skins would be unlockable via gameplay.WoW's endgame is all about unlocking everything. GW2's shouldn't force people to pay gems.Let people try their luck on a dungeon/boss to get items.

Those who wants to pay will pay but at least give us a way of achieving those via gameplay.RnG chests are also a very bad idea that will eventually get killed by law so hopefully games will see brighter days... soon.

@tomshreds.1745 said:I wish all items, mounts and skins would be unlockable via gameplay.WoW's endgame is all about unlocking everything. GW2's shouldn't force people to pay gems.Let people try their luck on a dungeon/boss to get items.

Those who wants to pay will pay but at least give us a way of achieving those via gameplay.RnG chests are also a very bad idea that will eventually get killed by law so hopefully games will see brighter days... soon.

Are you also willing to pay a mandatory monthly subscription fee to play gw2?

Anet doesn’t “force” anyone to buy anything off the gemstore. And you don’t have to spend a dime on items either, you can convert game gold into gems to get anything for $0. Also, nothing in bl chests gives you a combat advantage over another player.

Some rng chests in other games aren’t great, but not in gw2. But if things change, then we better get ready to have exclusively gem priced items on the gem store for direct purchase. So those certain cosmetic items will have a much higher sticker price.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Anet will sidestep the laws through two technicalities.

(1): The Gold to Gem conversion means that keys can be bought and used solely through in-game effort. This doesn't make chests gambling any more than anything else in the game.(2): When you open a chest, you're getting a statuette with some additional bonus items. This constitutes, at the minimum, a guaranteed purchase. It doesn't count as gambling because of this.

That's true it's more a grab bag setup. When I was a kid the local sports memorabilia store sold grab bags with baseball cards in them. Might get a Bo Jackson might get a bunch of low value cards but you always get something in return.

@Taril.8619 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:I'm against this law personally, I see it as an overstep of power and this is something world governments shouldn't have the right to do.

By those examples they already do restrict lootboxes because the vast majority of games that include them, especially the main games/companies that abuse them the most!Usually have an age restriction right on the cover of the game box.Gw2 itself has a 13 age rating, so technically nobody under 13 should be playing this game.

It's not a company's fault if people buy age restricted games for minors who end up blowing a ton of money on lootboxes.One of the main reasons why this law is being pushed in the first place is exactly because of that situation.. some kid goes and blows thousands of his parents cash on some game that they are years away from legally being allowed to play.In that situation the fault is entirely with the parents or whoever the adult was that bought them the game.

This again is another issue that has annoyed me for years.Back when I were young it didn't matter as much, there were no lootboxes or online features on consoles at all so kids playing mature games wasn't treally an issue..But now everything is online.. so these age laws need to start being enforced hard on consoles and video games to keep underage kids away from mature games.The biggest obstacle with making this happan though is yet again, the parents/adults who bought them the game.

@Teratus.2859 said:When innocents are punished because of the crimes of others purely on the basis that they share traits..

The companies that do not abuse lootboxes are innocent in this case.Laws like this are only going to hurt companies who don't abuse lootboxes by denying them a reliable source of income purely on the fact that a handful of greedy companies do abuse them, in some cases severely.I can't justify that.. I would much rather see the companies that do abuse Lootboxes dragged through the legal system and sued to hell and back for their behaviour.That is how we should be dealing with this.. not collectively punishing all gaming companies for the actions of a handful of bad ones.

As I said lootboxes are not a predatory practice.They are abused by bad predatory companies!Those companies are the ones that deserve all the blame and anger.. not the concept of lootboxes.As I said in my OP, we shouldn't blame the tool for the actions of bad people.

@Zok.4956 said:The high value items in Black Lion Chests are not guaranteed but have a very low random drop rate.Keys are bought with gems, gems are bought with real money. This is buying lootboxes with real money and Anet is not innocent.

That fact is not changed because you can get a few free keys with playing the story or that you can get some keys with RNG or that rich players can convert their gold to gems.

My guess is: Most BLCs are opened with keys that were bought with gems that were bought with real money.

To be innocent Anet has to show proof (they have the internal numbers) that buying keys (with gems) with real money does not happen very often.

If people want to buy keys with money that is their free will to do so.Anet can not be held liable for what consenting adults do with their freedom of choice.

The simple fact that methods exist in game to earn and farm these keys though makes a great deal of difference in what defines the boxes as predatory.Most games do not have those methods and worse still many of them include items in the boxes that give them an advantage over others too.. pay to win essentially.

Gw2 only has cosmetic rewards, yes some of them are exclusive to the chests but the fact that you can farm free keys or buy them with in game gold or other currencies does not make them predatory in my opinion.

If enough countries make it law against use of loot boxes, Anet would most likely change the blc to be a guaranteed item rather than random, Another game I play has already got rid of it's loot crates in favor of guaranteed items, Anet would simply have to follow suit

@"Teratus.2859" said:By those examples they already do restrict lootboxes because the vast majority of games that include them, especially the main games/companies that abuse them the most!Usually have an age restriction right on the cover of the game box.Gw2 itself has a 13 age rating, so technically nobody under 13 should be playing this game.

Except, gambling has an 18 rating minimum (Some places it's higher).

GW2's 12+ rating is not there because of the lootbox gambling, but because of "Bad Language", "Online Play" and "Violence"

If lootboxes were actually treated as the gambling they are, all these games that feature them would be PEGI 18.

@"Teratus.2859" said:The companies that do not abuse lootboxes are innocent in this case.Laws like this are only going to hurt companies who don't abuse lootboxes by denying them a reliable source of income purely on the fact that a handful of greedy companies do abuse them, in some cases severely.I can't justify that.. I would much rather see the companies that do abuse Lootboxes dragged through the legal system and sued to hell and back for their behaviour.That is how we should be dealing with this.. not collectively punishing all gaming companies for the actions of a handful of bad ones.

ALL companies that use lootboxes are abusing them. They're abusing the fact that they are unregulated. They're abusing the fact that they entice people into spending more than they normally would.

There is no instance of "Innocent" companies that are "Not abusing" lootboxes, because ALL of them are exploiting them to earn more money.

If a company was truly innocent, they'd just sell everything as direct purchases. No RNG crap, no gambling, no exploitation of people just "Here's a thing we offer, this is how much it costs"

@"Teratus.2859" said:As I said lootboxes are not a predatory practice.They are abused by bad predatory companies!Those companies are the ones that deserve all the blame and anger.. not the concept of lootboxes.As I said in my OP, we shouldn't blame the tool for the actions of bad people.

Lootboxes ARE a predatory practice.

That's literally why they are used. Since they earn more money than direct purchases via the exploitation of people, either through whales willingness to pay excessive amounts of money until they get the items they want, addicts need to gamble until they get the rewards they want or even normal people by enticing them with the "Potential" of getting a desirable item for cheap.

Any company that uses paid for lootboxes, are a predatory company. Of course, there's a scale of evil, where some companies are worse about it than others (I.e. EA is horrendous for it especially in their FIFA titles which are PEGI 3 rated...) but literally any company that uses them is being predatory.

The only way lootboxes are not predatory, is if the ONLY way to attain them is through gameplay. That cannot be bypassed with paying real money. However, there are few to no examples of this because companies jump on the chance to exploit their playerbases for some extra cash because $$$$ > integrity.

Can someone explain which law, and for that matter which government, this is refering to?

The only potential new loot box law I've heard about is the UK government commissioning a review of current gambling legislation, which will include deciding if it should cover loot boxes but that's a long way from becoming law, if it ever does. I've not heard about any other new attempts to regulate them, and I doubt I'm the only one feeling out of the loop on this.

Laws are almost never straight-forward and certainly not the same from one country to another, so it seems pointless to discuss how one will affect GW2 without knowing what that law actually says, without that info we're all just arguing over hypotheticals.

what culd change is to show true % number of drop per item, no need to ban them

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:If enough countries make it law against use of loot boxes, Anet would most likely change the blc to be a guaranteed item rather than random, Another game I play has already got rid of it's loot crates in favor of guaranteed items, Anet would simply have to follow suitThey already did that in response to the first round of EA disasters, why do you think we get the BL statuette every chest?

Paid loot box are simple.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:If enough countries make it law against use of loot boxes, Anet would most likely change the blc to be a guaranteed item rather than random, Another game I play has already got rid of it's loot crates in favor of guaranteed items, Anet would simply have to follow suitThey already did that in response to the first round of EA disasters, why do you think we get the BL statuette every chest?

Because there is still the element of gambling involved, look at the new wings they bought in last week, it's not guaranteed that you will get them and I do wonder how much money has been thrown into gems just to hope to get them

@Taril.8619 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:By those examples they already do restrict lootboxes because the vast majority of games that include them, especially the main games/companies that abuse them the most!Usually have an age restriction right on the cover of the game box.Gw2 itself has a 13 age rating, so technically nobody under 13 should be playing this game.

A good number of them are though, those games that arn't probably should be.Though it won't stop underage players from playing them, so same situation and same problems will persist.Atthe very least though companies will have the ability to say, well your kid shouldn't have been playing in the first place.. not our fault.

@"Teratus.2859" said:The companies that do not abuse lootboxes are innocent in this case.Laws like this are only going to hurt companies who don't abuse lootboxes by denying them a reliable source of income purely on the fact that a handful of greedy companies do abuse them, in some cases severely.I can't justify that.. I would much rather see the companies that do abuse Lootboxes dragged through the legal system and sued to hell and back for their behaviour.That is how we should be dealing with this.. not collectively punishing all gaming companies for the actions of a handful of bad ones.

That's just not true.That same logic can be applied to anything that exists and is marketed.. which is pretty much every commercial good on the planet.Marketing campaigns can be predatory and yet not all of them are.. hell even political campaigning can be predatory when devious agendas are put in play.. that doesn't mean all of them are and the same applies to lootboxes.Even direct purchases can be predatory if the items in question are ridiculously priced.Gw2's 2000 gem premium mount skins are something I would classify as excessively priced, they cost far too much money imo, and in other games like WoW.. pretty much all mount skins in their cash shop cost more! than a premium skin does in Gw2.In my opinion that is far more predatory than BLC's in GW2 are.

RNG is and always has been an associated componant of rewards systems.. if it wasn't then many games would be a lot more of dull experience.The best argument you could make about unfairness with exclusive BLC skins is that they can't be traded and therefore obtained via the trading post.That I would definitely agree with you on and it would be a change I would support.

But BLC can in no way be compared to other far more malicious lootbox systems in other games other than they share a concept.Anet doesn't abuse them and gives you plenty of options to use them without paying a dime, if you still choose to spend money on them then that is entirely your choice, and also fault if you don't get what you want and spend more than you wanted to.

@"Teratus.2859" said:As I said lootboxes are not a predatory practice.They are abused by bad predatory companies!Those companies are the ones that deserve all the blame and anger.. not the concept of lootboxes.As I said in my OP, we shouldn't blame the tool for the actions of bad people.

We'll just have to agree to strongly disagree on this subject lol.

Whales are typically people with too much money so I don't see them making the active choice to spend it in a game a problem, I won't tell anyone what to do with their money, it's theirs not mine.

Gambling addicts don't contribute as much to the whole lootbox thing as some might thing either, the payout of a reward in games really doesn't compare to the payout of winning a ton of money in a casino.. I know a few gambling addicts personally which have said as much although I will recognise that some people do have a bit of a problem with lootboxes.

For them though that really is their problem to solve, not something everyone else on the planet should be forced to sacrifice for nor something they should rely on their government to fix for them, it's a personal problem and it should be handled personally.

To add as well. some people also have video game addiction, does that mean the govenrment should ban all video games just because a handful of people can't control themselves?.It's the same argument.

The biggest problem with LB's and ultimately the main reason these laws are coming is not because of gambling addicts or even predatory companies abusing a monetization method.

It's because of children.Almost every story you hear about someone loosing thousands on LB's involves a kid who either stole their parents credit card or took advantage of one that their parents were stupid enough to save on the kids console.Pretty much the entire case against LB's is based on stories like that.. not gambling addicts who can't control themselves.

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:I'm against this law personally, I see it as an overstep of power and this is something world governments shouldn't have the right to do.

@Teratus.2859 said:When innocents are punished because of the crimes of others purely on the basis that they share traits..

@Zok.4956 said:The high value items in Black Lion Chests are not guaranteed but have a very low random drop rate.Keys are bought with gems, gems are bought with real money. This is buying lootboxes with real money and Anet is not innocent.

That fact is not changed because you can get a few free keys with playing the story or that you can get some keys with RNG or that rich players can convert their gold to gems.

My guess is: Most BLCs are opened with keys that were bought with gems that were bought with real money.

To be innocent Anet has to show proof (they have the internal numbers) that buying keys (with gems) with real money does not happen very often.

Of course can Anet be held liable for their game and the real money gambling it includes if there are laws. This gambling is intentional to make more money through this gambling. As an alternative Anet could just put the requested items in the gem store without the need for gambling for this items.

And: GW2 is not a game only for adults.

The simple fact that methods exist in game to earn and farm these keys though makes a great deal of difference in what defines the boxes as predatory.

The BLCs are in its core gambling with real money. This fact is not changed because Anet gives some keys away through other ways (like dealers give new clients a fix).

It is gambling. You might notice that in threads like these, people always come to defend it, every time. You might ask, why? Because if the addicts pay anets bills, they don't have to and as long as anet makes money, the game will propably continue.

@Swagger.1459 said:

@tomshreds.1745 said:I wish all items, mounts and skins would be unlockable via gameplay.WoW's endgame is all about unlocking everything. GW2's shouldn't force people to pay gems.Let people try their luck on a dungeon/boss to get items.

Those who wants to pay will pay but at least give us a way of achieving those via gameplay.RnG chests are also a very bad idea that will eventually get killed by law so hopefully games will see brighter days... soon.

Yes of course but that's not the point here. I don't want to convert in-game currency to gold to buy them. I want to try my luck on a boss in a dungeon to win them.Not via a loot box, not via buying via in-game currency but with the chance of getting something that not a lot of other players had the dedication to get.That is the BIG difference IMO.

Buying them after farming gold is satisfying but it's not the same satisfaction as in trying the same dungeon 100 times before FINALLY getting something you really wanted for a long time. i.e. Asmongold playing the same WoW dungeon for the 181st time before getting a freaking red scythe he wanted for over a year. That dedication needs to be rewarded.

Let players buy it via gem-store, but give us a way of getting it ourselves via gameplay.

@Yggranya.5201 said:It is gambling. You might notice that in threads like these, people always come to defend it, every time. You might ask, why? Because if the addicts pay anets bills, they don't have to and as long as anet makes money, the game will propably continue.

Totally agreed. Same behavior as IRL gamblers defending their precious poker machines.They know it is wrong but they still do it because they are addicted...