Confer with Bangar *SPOILERS* — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Lore

Confer with Bangar *SPOILERS*

I checked today and still no new steps with speaking to Bangar. I did notice something particular intriguing about this achievement, though. You can see the steps through GW2 Companion App which uses API to gather the achievement information. Read below for spoilers!

Check in with Bangar at the Eye of the North
Bangar's rebuke
Bangar's ego
Rytlock speaks his mind.
Aurene Versus Jormag.
Jormag's secret.
Crecia weighs in.
Jormag's enemy.

Seems to be steps in-between releases. More will be released at some point in the future. Possibly not weekly but in chunks? Also, it could be between ep 4 and 5, ep 5 and 6, etc. all the way to the end of IBS. Remember, Bangar is a permanent addition to the Eye of the North now, so it could be drawn out. Time to speculate!

Comments

  • Donari.5237Donari.5237 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Interesting. Frustrating, too, since I won't necessarily remember to check back at random intervals unless the game prompts me to.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    1 2 and 3 sound boring imo. Not much to talk about there.

    In terms of the rest, Aurene versus Jormag no idea. Their views on humanity? Being an elder dragon? Their plan for breaking the cycle?

    Jormag’s secret. Plot twist, Jormag is actually dying from bleeding out. Jk. Maybe something related to a previous dragon rise or more on the supposed threat? Maybe even something involving the creation of the spirits or even Koda? Maybe the pre-torment version of Jormag in the early days WAS Koda?

    Crecia weighs in makes me think this is bugged and is meant to be weekly but if it’s this much further along in the story then perhaps she’s weighing in about the imperator/khan-ur or whatever. If this is perhaps when Bangar starts to be more Bangar.

    Speculating on that further, perhaps over time Bangar returns somewhat to normal and the final reveal is that Bangar knows who Jormags enemy is and it’s ultimate plan from being connected.

    I would like to revisit the Forgotten cleansing ritual at some point and Bangar feels like a pretty good candidate as he’s weaker than a dragon and just a smidge above a chicken.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I would like to revisit the Forgotten cleansing ritual at some point and Bangar feels like a pretty good candidate as he’s weaker than a dragon and just a smidge above a chicken.

    Given the first three lines, Bangar still has his free will - just as it's been confirmed that Ryland does - which would make the cleansing ritual pointless on those two, since all it technically does is restore free will.

    Drakkar would have been an interesting candidate to use it on, though.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I would like to revisit the Forgotten cleansing ritual at some point and Bangar feels like a pretty good candidate as he’s weaker than a dragon and just a smidge above a chicken.

    Given the first three lines, Bangar still has his free will - just as it's been confirmed that Ryland does - which would make the cleansing ritual pointless on those two, since all it technically does is restore free will.

    Drakkar would have been an interesting candidate to use it on, though.

    I guess I'm just trying to figure out how that works. I mean, can Bangar CHOOSE not to be the voice of Jormag? Or if Jormag wants to say something it's just going to take control of Bangar and say what it wants?

    I guess MOSTLY free will is still free will though.

    As to Ryland, yeah, he's definitely an inevitable casualty unless they decide to do some redemption ark of Aurene cleansing/rebranding him or something. Idk. Doesn't really seem like a character that needs to stick around anyway.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My interpretation - with what little we have - is that in "Jormag's changing methods", it chose to not strip Bangar of free will, and can only speak (and hear) when it wishes to. Bangar cannot stop the speech and it occurs even when Bangar normally cannot talk (as done at the very, very end of the Frost Citadel instance), but through Jormag's choice of action, Bangar can still control his own body as he wishes.

    Maybe we'll see that Jormag can choose to hijack the body at will, but when Jormag isn't controlling, Bangar has his own complete freedom. Which is more than the old icebrood, who are fanatically enslaved to Jormag's will like any other non-sylvari/Mordrem Guard/Frost Legion dragon minion.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    My interpretation - with what little we have - is that in "Jormag's changing methods", it chose to not strip Bangar of free will, and can only speak (and hear) when it wishes to. Bangar cannot stop the speech and it occurs even when Bangar normally cannot talk (as done at the very, very end of the Frost Citadel instance), but through Jormag's choice of action, Bangar can still control his own body as he wishes.

    Maybe we'll see that Jormag can choose to hijack the body at will, but when Jormag isn't controlling, Bangar has his own complete freedom. Which is more than the old icebrood, who are fanatically enslaved to Jormag's will like any other non-sylvari/Mordrem Guard/Frost Legion dragon minion.

    This is possible. Caithe has a similar connection with Aurene and is her voice, but she also has her free will still too. It wasn’t as ugly as it played out with Jormag, but that was part punishment I think since Bangar had other intentions.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Which is more than the old icebrood, who are fanatically enslaved to Jormag's will like any other non-sylvari/Mordrem Guard/Frost Legion dragon minion.

    The thing is is that I don't see any evidence of that whatsoever. Jormag's minions have always appeared—to me—as haing total free will. I've always been confused, as an autistic person, by how neurotypicals tend to parse sincere appreciation and admiration as some kind of manipulation. And yet actual manipulations go under the radar.

    I mean, we see some Svanir in Forged in Steel that are no different than any other Svanir. I don't think that Jormag is exercising absolute mind control over them to relax in hotsprings. We've also seen Jormag create constructs for the Svanir to hunt, too. Which is just basically making toys for her mortal kids to play with. I can't think of any good reason for Jormag to exercise compulsion over the Svanir to destroy their own ice constructs either.

    What I've seen is that those branded by Jormag just tend to really like their dragon and they're very appreciative of them. At this point, I'm of the opinion that Jormag's real power lies with absolute sincerity. This is something that Tom Abernathy has hiinted at in his frustration over how people believe Jormag's power is manipulation or mind control when it isn't, it's persuasion. Tom's also said that Jormag can't lie. I think that the way Jormag's power works is similar to an extremely logical, compelling argument founded in reason that you have to listen to. Then you can make your own decisions based on that.

    Jormag mentioned a while ago that their goal was to freeze the world to end the cycles. Their goal has been to end the cycles, period. Now they just see a different means to do so that doesn't involve having to freeze the world. Another thing that Tom has told us that's extremely relevant is that Jormag truly loves and cares about Tyria. I don't think that this dragon is going to be what many seem to expect them to be.

    I think you're taking Tom Abernathy's views on the subject and twisting them somewhat, I think you're half correct in the idea that Jormag is in some capacity not lying, and likely 'cares' for us and/or Tyria in some fashion. But what you completely overlook is how you can care for another person and still abuse them, wanting the best for people has never stopped any entity be they a government or an individual from harming those they 'care' for, sometimes going to the extreme of stripping them of all freedoms or even outright killing them for some perceived greater good. If Jormag truly understood what was best for the life of Tyrians it would object to the use of Sanguinary Blades to force people into becoming icebrood or using Boneskinner vials to mutate Kodan into flesh eating abominations obsessed with devouring their kin.

    Jormag has also been shown to take advantage of people at their worst, reaching into them in moments of despair and anguish before urging them to take their own life or the lives of others, dangling their hearts desires in front of them to give it power even at the expense of all life around them. It may internalize this as doing good and having some code of honor, but it's more akin to an abusive relationship then anything.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2020

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Which is more than the old icebrood, who are fanatically enslaved to Jormag's will like any other non-sylvari/Mordrem Guard/Frost Legion dragon minion.

    The thing is is that I don't see any evidence of that whatsoever. Jormag's minions have always appeared—to me—as haing total free will. I've always been confused, as an autistic person, by how neurotypicals tend to parse sincere appreciation and admiration as some kind of manipulation. And yet actual manipulations go under the radar.

    [...]

    What I've seen is that those branded by Jormag just tend to really like their dragon and they're very appreciative of them. At this point, I'm of the opinion that Jormag's real power lies with absolute sincerity. This is something that Tom Abernathy has hiinted at in his frustration over how people believe Jormag's power is manipulation or mind control when it isn't, it's persuasion. Tom's also said that Jormag can't lie. I think that the way Jormag's power works is similar to an extremely logical, compelling argument founded in reason that you have to listen to. Then you can make your own decisions based on that.

    I can see your confusion, but it should be noted that not all icebrood were converted willingly. Yet all icebrood serve Jormag. While Jormag does make a point to corrupt the willing, the Sons of Svanir - those not yet corrupted but channel Jormag's power - do forcibly corrupt others. Certain icebrood, such as the Dragonspawn, did the same.

    Two prime examples would be the Dragonspawn's actions in Edge of Destiny, and the dungeon Honor of the Winds.

    In Edge of Destiny, the Dragonspawn would corrupt anyone who came to attack it, and send the newly corrupted to assault Hoelbrak in retaliation. None who go in to attack it are followers of Jormag, but instead seek to kill Jormag. So it's obviously very questionable about how they would suddenly turn to serve Jormag willingly. When Eir, Snaff, and Zojja first make an attempt to kill the Dragonspawn, we see the truth behind it: the Dragonspawn used hypnotism to make Zojja "willing" to accept Jormag's blessing (luckily for Zojja, Eir snapped her out of it before any corruption could set in).

    In Honor of the Waves story, we see The Huntsman, Bane of Koda, hunting down Honor's Voice. She was cowering before The Huntsman when he, already an icebrood, forcibly corrupted her against her will. And despite this, despite being faithful to Koda even in those moments before being an icebrood, she attacked her Claw - her equal in the Sanctuary. In the explorable version, during one of the paths, Honor's Claw comes across two icebrood kodan - his sons. And they mindlessly attack him.

    Another example lies in the quaggan sympathy storyline, if you chose the story instance "Enraged but Unashamed", you come across some Sickly Quaggans. Here is the conversation:

    Sickly Quaggan: OoooOOOooo. Go away! Leave quaggan to die.
    Baroosh: Be Brave. Quaggan will get you out of here and back to Falooaloo.
    Sickly Quaggan: Thank you...for that lie. Quaggan is hurting, dying. Help quaggan; make the end come quick.
    Baroosh: Don't talk like that. Quaggan will—oah!
    Baroosh: Yes...too late. Quaggans cannot stop the corruption.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enraged_and_Unashamed

    The Sickly Quaggan, as you can guess if you hadn't done the story, turn into icebrood and attack Baroosh, PC, and friends. Going from "kill me before Jormag takes me" to "I kill you" definitely does not spell free will to me.

    We also see in A Crack in the Ice, that standard icebrood - even Svanir icebrood - are barely intelligent, incapable of speech. Much like all dragon minions. And like all dragon minions, Edge of Destiny proves that they are connected by a hive mind, and use this hive mind to determine friend and foe.

    The only difference denoted between icebrood and other dragon minions - excluding the more unique sylvari/Mordrem Guard and Frost Legion - is the method of preferring willing over forced corruption, but even that isn't absolute, as pointed out.

    I mean, we see some Svanir in Forged in Steel that are no different than any other Svanir. I don't think that Jormag is exercising absolute mind control over them to relax in hotsprings.

    Those aren't icebrood, they're normal, not corrupted, norn in the Sons of Svanir cult. There is a key difference, despite the fact that ever since Season 3, ANet and the Commander and friends don't seem capable of denoting this difference in dialogue. Sons of Svanir are not corrupted, and as such they do indeed hold free will. This is why we can get repentent Sons of Svanir such as Rojan the Penitent, who's fighting against Jormag's slow corruption. Sons of Svanir do become corrupted over time, due to channeling Jormag's powers, or having Jormag's corruption channeled into them by the Sons of Svanir "shamans", thus becoming Icebrood. Beginning with A Crack in the Ice episode in Season 3, icebrood Sons of Svanir are labeled and called simply Svanir - to a bit of an annoyance - but make no mistake, they are not the same as the uncorrupted Sons of Svanir.

    I can't think of any good reason for Jormag to exercise compulsion over the Svanir to destroy their own ice constructs either.

    Not sure which Svanir - either icebrood or non-icebrood - destroy their own ice constructs. But it should be noted that the Sons of Svanir (non-icebrood) do hunt icebrood to "prove their strength". You get this clearly messaged in the ambient dialogue of Highpeaks:

    Son of Svanir (1): You have much to learn about Jormag.
    Svanir Initiate (1): Then teach me.
    Son of Svanir (1): Only Jormag can teach you.
    Svanir Initiate (1): Then I go to find Jormag.
    Son of Svanir (1): You are not ready. Hunt minions first. Watch. Learn. Live.

    Keep in mind, Jormag simply doesn't care about the individuals. They only care about individuals who prove their worth - like Asgeir and the Commander - which is why the Sons of Svanir "prove their worth" by hunting icebrood, or capturing powerful prey for Jormag. The Huntsman was proving his worth by corrupting the Honor's Voice for Jormag; in the norn personal story, Vidkun tried proving his worth to Jormag by capturing Minotaur for Jormag to twist, and Varg proved his worth by offering a powerful magical artifact for Jormag to twist with their magic.

    Jormag doesn't care if its run of the mill minions get wiped out - the only minion it showed any care for was Drakkar.

    Jormag mentioned a while ago that their goal was to freeze the world to end the cycles. Their goal has been to end the cycles, period. Now they just see a different means to do so that doesn't involve having to freeze the world. Another thing that Tom has told us that's extremely relevant is that Jormag truly loves and cares about Tyria. I don't think that this dragon is going to be what many seem to expect them to be.

    Jormag actually hasn't spoken its goal - before or in the past. The closest it has come to is this line in Voice in the Deep:

    The Whisper of Jormag: For thousands of years, I've watched this broken system consume entire civilizations.
    The Whisper of Jormag: But it was not always this way. You, Aurene, and I—we can save this world. Preserve it.

    The whole "freeze the world to end the cycles" is player interpretation and speculation, not Jormag's lines, as far as I'm aware of.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hypnowulf.7403 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Which is more than the old icebrood, who are fanatically enslaved to Jormag's will like any other non-sylvari/Mordrem Guard/Frost Legion dragon minion.

    The thing is is that I don't see any evidence of that whatsoever. Jormag's minions have always appeared—to me—as having total free will. I've always been confused, as an autistic person, by how neurotypicals tend to parse sincere appreciation and admiration as some kind of manipulation. And yet actual manipulations go under the radar.

    I mean, we see some Svanir in Forged in Steel that are no different than any other Svanir. I don't think that Jormag is exercising absolute mind control over them to relax in hotsprings. We've also seen Jormag create constructs for the Svanir to hunt, too. Which is just basically making toys for her mortal kids to play with. I can't think of any good reason for Jormag to exercise compulsion over the Svanir to destroy their own ice constructs either.

    What I've seen is that those branded by Jormag just tend to really like their dragon and they're very appreciative of them. At this point, I'm of the opinion that Jormag's real power lies with absolute sincerity. This is something that Tom Abernathy has hiinted at in his frustration over how people believe Jormag's power is manipulation or mind control when it isn't, it's persuasion. Tom's also said that Jormag can't lie. I think that the way Jormag's power works is similar to an extremely logical, compelling argument founded in reason that you have to listen to. Then you can make your own decisions based on that.

    Jormag mentioned a while ago that their goal was to freeze the world to end the cycles. Their goal has been to end the cycles, period. Now they just see a different means to do so that doesn't involve having to freeze the world. Another thing that Tom has told us that's extremely relevant is that Jormag truly loves and cares about Tyria. I don't think that this dragon is going to be what many seem to expect them to be.

    What you've described there, though, is essentially how dragon corruption normally works. It basically rewrites the victim's brain so that the victim loves the dragon utterly and places the dragon's interests and commands above all else, including their own life and their past loyalties. However, they can still act normally, including in some cases continuing to pursue their own agenda, as long as it doesn't conflict with the dragon's desires and commands (noting that "kill or corrupt anything that isn't already mine" is a common standing order for most minions). If you've come across the Confessors in Sword of Truth (which is not, incidentally, a recommendation of the series, although Wizard's First Rule can be worth reading on its own), it's a similar principle to that.

    It's also common, but not necessary, for most minions to have reduced intelligence, since in the Guild Wars universe, intelligence is powered by magic, and if the Elder Dragon doesn't need a minion to remain intelligent, it generally likes to suck out all of the magic from the minion leaving just enough for it to remain a near-mindless automaton. Even these, though, tend to continue to mindlessly do the same things they did before becoming a minion if this doesn't conflict with the dragon's interests (for example: Risen farmers in Orr continuing to mindlessly till the soil, even though the fields their working are mostly barren and lifeless).

    So there's nothing in Svanir relaxing in hot springs that proves that Jormag doesn't use regular forms of minion control. Doubly so, in fact, since there is supposed to be a distinction between Sons of Svanir (which are influenced by Jormag to various degrees, but which do still have their free will rather than being full minions) and icebrood, even if this line gets blurred somewhat (particularly in season 3, episode 3). In the case of Svanir becoming icebrood, it's questionable whether the loyalty override actually happens - if someone is genuinely loyal to the dragon before they become a full minion, it's hard to tell if they've had their loyalties overridden to make them loyal to the dragon afterwards, after all. There are, however, cases where a captive has been shown resisting right up to the point at which they're transformed and then go berserk on anything nearby that isn't loyal to Jormag, and that seems to be a case of conventional minion transformation.

    It is worth noting, though, that this usually happens through the actions of Svanir shamans, and Jormag doesn't necessarily approve of everything that the Sons of Svanir do, so "conventional" minion transformation might only happen when performed by an intermediary against Jormag's usual policy, rather than being done by Jormag themself. So Jormag's statement that Jormag never gives something that isn't asked for may well be true, and Jormag doesn't use the "remove free will by overriding loyalties" form of minion creation... but Jormag's intermediaries do.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm unsure where "intelligence is determined by magic" is coming from. I've never heard that said in GW1/GW2, and can only imagine Asura using that as a "Ha, we are better then you" line like they typically do, even if it's not supported.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    What you've described there, though, is essentially how dragon corruption normally works. It basically rewrites the victim's brain so that the victim loves the dragon utterly and places the dragon's interests and commands above all else, including their own life and their past loyalties. However, they can still act normally, including in some cases continuing to pursue their own agenda, as long as it doesn't conflict with the dragon's desires and commands (noting that "kill or corrupt anything that isn't already mine" is a common standing order for most minions). If you've come across the Confessors in Sword of Truth (which is not, incidentally, a recommendation of the series, although Wizard's First Rule can be worth reading on its own), it's a similar principle to that.

    There is an event just south of Hoelbrek where a Son of Svanir is all about his friends and Jormag, up until a Shaman starts casting a conversion spell on him. At that point he starts panicking and realizes this isn't what he wants.

    It's also common, but not necessary, for most minions to have reduced intelligence, since in the Guild Wars universe, intelligence is powered by magic, and if the Elder Dragon doesn't need a minion to remain intelligent, it generally likes to suck out all of the magic from the minion leaving just enough for it to remain a near-mindless automaton. Even these, though, tend to continue to mindlessly do the same things they did before becoming a minion if this doesn't conflict with the dragon's interests (for example: Risen farmers in Orr continuing to mindlessly till the soil, even though the fields their working are mostly barren and lifeless).

    I'm unsure where "intelligence is determined by magic" is coming from. I've never heard that said in GW1/GW2, and can only imagine Asura using that as a "Ha, we are better then you" line like they typically do, even if it's not supported.

    It is worth noting, though, that this usually happens through the actions of Svanir shamans, and Jormag doesn't necessarily approve of everything that the Sons of Svanir do, so "conventional" minion transformation might only happen when performed by an intermediary against Jormag's usual policy, rather than being done by Jormag themself. So Jormag's statement that Jormag never gives something that isn't asked for may well be true, and Jormag doesn't use the "remove free will by overriding loyalties" form of minion creation... but Jormag's intermediaries do.

    Jormag's been described as basically ignoring the Sons of Svanir (Like their killing of any icebrood/Jormag worshipping female norn), at least until the dragon needed them as a distraction to let Bangar gain ground. It's often came across to me as if Jormag is more willing to simply sit back and let a corrupting atmosphere slowly turn people to icebrood, then directly overpowering them. Edge of Destiny described icebrood as a scale, with new conversions being quite flesh and bone and easier to kill, while the longer an icebrood was "alive" the more frozen they became., making them harder to defeat/kill.

  • Cynder.2509Cynder.2509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thank the 6 Gods, the Khan Ur, the Eternal Alchemy and the Sprits of the Wild this achievement isn't part of the meta achievement. I first thought so and I was a bit scared as I'm only 37/38 of total achievements away. Well, then it means to do the Drizzlewood Meta 3 more times... (I'm a bit lazy at the moment but usually I get everything done within a few hours, day 1 or 2 to 3 days after release depending on how grindy or massive the content is)
    However Anet could give us some more clearer info on that achievement.

    I'm Hunter, he/him
    Character infos: https://is-it-because-im-charr.tumblr.com/charactersgw2

    canthaconfirmed

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    I'm unsure where "intelligence is determined by magic" is coming from. I've never heard that said in GW1/GW2, and can only imagine Asura using that as a "Ha, we are better then you" line like they typically do, even if it's not supported.

    It comes from throughout the personal story, though technically it's in relation to dragon minions. In the Gorr-related storylines, particularly the Order of Whispers story step, it's established by Gorr and Trahearne that when Elder Dragons corrupt things, they're filling said "things" with their own corrupted draconic energies to create dragon minions. The more magic forced into said "things", the stronger and more intelligent those minions are.

    Thus explaining why some humans corrupted by Zhaitan become "Risen Thralls" that can only seek and bash with claws and fist, while others have the capability of using spells and the like (such as Risen Wizards).

    Dragon lieutenants and champions are, ultimately, dragon minions which had more magic put into them, making them stronger and smarter than the rest.

    While not the only source, the mostly referenced sourced of this is: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic_Sucks

    Trahearne: I would be surprised if Zhaitan even bothers with controlling its lesser minions. They do nothing but destroy.
    [...]
    Trahearne: These seem to be more powerful. They also hold a larger quantity of magic. More of Zhaitan's will, perhaps?
    [...]
    Trahearne: Indeed, these creatures are acting with more self-will! Zhaitan's infused them with tremendous energy. See how the weapon affects them!

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    I'm unsure where "intelligence is determined by magic" is coming from. I've never heard that said in GW1/GW2, and can only imagine Asura using that as a "Ha, we are better then you" line like they typically do, even if it's not supported.

    It comes from throughout the personal story, though technically it's in relation to dragon minions. In the Gorr-related storylines, particularly the Order of Whispers story step, it's established by Gorr and Trahearne that when Elder Dragons corrupt things, they're filling said "things" with their own corrupted draconic energies to create dragon minions. The more magic forced into said "things", the stronger and more intelligent those minions are.

    Thus explaining why some humans corrupted by Zhaitan become "Risen Thralls" that can only seek and bash with claws and fist, while others have the capability of using spells and the like (such as Risen Wizards).

    Dragon lieutenants and champions are, ultimately, dragon minions which had more magic put into them, making them stronger and smarter than the rest.

    While not the only source, the mostly referenced sourced of this is: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic_Sucks

    Trahearne: I would be surprised if Zhaitan even bothers with controlling its lesser minions. They do nothing but destroy.
    [...]
    Trahearne: These seem to be more powerful. They also hold a larger quantity of magic. More of Zhaitan's will, perhaps?
    [...]
    Trahearne: Indeed, these creatures are acting with more self-will! Zhaitan's infused them with tremendous energy. See how the weapon affects them!

    It sounds more specific to the dragon minions then as a general statement to me. But thanks for the source. I never did Asura and Charr personal stories dealing with the orders.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As of at least 2:30AM Central time, on August 11th, Bangar is now speaking. GET TO IT BOYS AND GIRLS!

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    I'm unsure where "intelligence is determined by magic" is coming from. I've never heard that said in GW1/GW2, and can only imagine Asura using that as a "Ha, we are better then you" line like they typically do, even if it's not supported.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    What you've described there, though, is essentially how dragon corruption normally works. It basically rewrites the victim's brain so that the victim loves the dragon utterly and places the dragon's interests and commands above all else, including their own life and their past loyalties. However, they can still act normally, including in some cases continuing to pursue their own agenda, as long as it doesn't conflict with the dragon's desires and commands (noting that "kill or corrupt anything that isn't already mine" is a common standing order for most minions). If you've come across the Confessors in Sword of Truth (which is not, incidentally, a recommendation of the series, although Wizard's First Rule can be worth reading on its own), it's a similar principle to that.

    There is an event just south of Hoelbrek where a Son of Svanir is all about his friends and Jormag, up until a Shaman starts casting a conversion spell on him. At that point he starts panicking and realizes this isn't what he wants.

    I'm familiar with it. If it completes (or, from the perspective of the players, the event "fails"), though, he turns into a regular icebrood with, as far as we can tell, regular icebrood behaviour.

    There's also the quaggan up in Frostgorge Sound. He also resists (as much as he can, anyway), right up until the point the corruption takes over and he becomes a minion of Jormag.

    Regarding the magic related to intelligence thing - Konig gives one example, but I have a feeling there was another source, such as an interview, where it was pretty much revealed that that was how we got the various grades of minion intelligence. Zombielike minions have very little magic in them, and we see that loss of intelligence in things like the "Svanir" in Bitterfrost Frontier - something has caused them to lose much of their intellect. while the leaders retain theirs. The dragons don't need all of their minions to be smart - just a few leaders to direct the rest, and even that only when direction is needed and it's not sufficient just to saturate a region with enough minions to make it difficult for an enemy to pass.

  • Eloc Freidon.5692Eloc Freidon.5692 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My problem is that it seems to be dialogue that you can never "listen" to again. Even worse if they decide to add actual voice acting to them.

    When they said Season 1 influences, I didn't think they would be repeating mistakes.

  • Zeivu.3615Zeivu.3615 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eloc Freidon.5692 said:
    My problem is that it seems to be dialogue that you can never "listen" to again. Even worse if they decide to add actual voice acting to them.

    When they said Season 1 influences, I didn't think they would be repeating mistakes.

    Maybe they will have something planned at the end of the coding? Who knows?

  • @Hypnowulf.7403 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Which is more than the old icebrood, who are fanatically enslaved to Jormag's will like any other non-sylvari/Mordrem Guard/Frost Legion dragon minion.

    The thing is is that I don't see any evidence of that whatsoever. Jormag's minions have always appeared—to me—as haing total free will. I've always been confused, as an autistic person, by how neurotypicals tend to parse sincere appreciation and admiration as some kind of manipulation. And yet actual manipulations go under the radar.

    I mean, we see some Svanir in Forged in Steel that are no different than any other Svanir. I don't think that Jormag is exercising absolute mind control over them to relax in hotsprings. We've also seen Jormag create constructs for the Svanir to hunt, too. Which is just basically making toys for her mortal kids to play with. I can't think of any good reason for Jormag to exercise compulsion over the Svanir to destroy their own ice constructs either.

    What I've seen is that those branded by Jormag just tend to really like their dragon and they're very appreciative of them. At this point, I'm of the opinion that Jormag's real power lies with absolute sincerity. This is something that Tom Abernathy has hiinted at in his frustration over how people believe Jormag's power is manipulation or mind control when it isn't, it's persuasion. Tom's also said that Jormag can't lie. I think that the way Jormag's power works is similar to an extremely logical, compelling argument founded in reason that you have to listen to. Then you can make your own decisions based on that.

    Jormag mentioned a while ago that their goal was to freeze the world to end the cycles. Their goal has been to end the cycles, period. Now they just see a different means to do so that doesn't involve having to freeze the world. Another thing that Tom has told us that's extremely relevant is that Jormag truly loves and cares about Tyria. I don't think that this dragon is going to be what many seem to expect them to be.

    Jormag still has too answer for the sons of Svanir killing others, including the many icebrood attacks.