HoT = Dark Souls ? Casual Gamer perspective. - Page 13 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Guild Wars 2 Discussion

HoT = Dark Souls ? Casual Gamer perspective.

1101113151619

Comments

  • kraai.7265kraai.7265 Member ✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    I remember back in the 90's when devs just told people to gitgud.

    Those were better days.

    Pandering to casuals just ruins the game for everyone else. Open world PvE is already mind numbingly easy enough as it is.

    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME. wildstar showed us where THAT ends.
    they simply never had the money to optimize the game, game, so the hardcore content never got to work right.
    in the end, the hardcores left too, since the hardcore content really NEEDS to work perfectly
    a good mmo is a like a pyramid...for every one at the top, there are 100s at the bottom
    pretty much like a REAL society

    A good game is one where you cant lose or have to learn

    when i came to this game, i couldnt dodge AT ALL. i suck at platforming , and i really HATE it.
    but i still completed vezirs tower. no portal. took my almost a day of cursing, but i DID it.

    And that's the actual reward you are supposed to get from this game, the sense of acomplishment, of being able to overcome obstacles, and learn through frustration, same as in pvp when you face that beast of your guild who just wipes the floor with everyone else, but after thousands of duels you manage to win a few.

    Yet today gamers are so lame, they just want the shiny piece of kitten or title you get after you've completed something big, they want it so hard they are willing to pay real money for it, just to show it of, even if they couldn't even win it on easy mode or by cheating.

    Those who won't enjoy even the easiest challenge, (let's face it, this game as it is, is no more than a walk on the park for someone with a learning mentality) but won't pay for the skip either, they come here to cry the game is too hard, but what's actually happening is they don't want to learn.

  • kraai.7265kraai.7265 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:
    I just attempted night of Fire in pof on an ele.. haha, yeah no.. 10+ (Some were insta kills) deaths become rinse repeat really not fun after you die so many times a customer gets frustrated angry and wants the mission just to end so they can leave.. and in my case stop using said ele..

    Actually, a good ele, who took the time to learn his skills, rotations, etc. Would tell you it's not hard at all, it just takes time and practice, maybe what is pissing you off, is not the difficulty of the mission, but maybe tryharding a game that wasn't design for customers like you.. who won't take the time to learn but still want to go through all the content like if it's just taking the trash out.
    People want gw2 to be like the next fall guys, a game that everyone can pick up and play, but even if this game is heavily casual friendly, at the end it's core design is the same as in any other mmorpg, a game about progression, time, knowledge, dedication, and such.

    I even spent the whole day copying metabattle builds, building armor and weapons needed in hope that my ele would be useful..
    Nope its done.
    Ele can die in a fire as far as i'm concerned.

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    Average players love HoT and find core laughably easy. We want more HoT.

    No they really don't, i talk to guildies daily and frustration is big in hot and lesser so pof.. Its a large aspect of why so many leave or take breaks.. Enjoyable content you can go through is fun, content that continually bashes you until you quit isn't (thats actually called bully mechanics).

    Well based on your first few sentences on this same comment, i'd say not you or any of your guildmates can be taken seriously, or used to represent all of the community, and the same goes for the first guy who said that about average players, I know people who hated it, I know people who loved it, I myself wanted more and more of that style of content because if I wanted a dumb braindead game i'd be playing an android mmorpg, but well.. pof was luckluster to say the least so that was it for me.

    Leave that to pvp or raids.

  • kraai.7265kraai.7265 Member ✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME

    You said earlier that casuals don't pay for this game so this is a weird statement.

    they HAD millions, but not anymore. out of 5 mio sold boxes, 3½-4 mio went to casuals. . thats over 150 MIO $ pretty much from start.
    those 150 mio is the major reason for the easiness of core. they wanted those money, but they didnt want to make more content for the casuals.
    that is why we are here now

    Source? You posted numerous times your claims about sales but I've never seen anything that verifies them. There is a confusion and debate on this thread alone on what the word "casual" even mean, I'm sure the data you have will not only clearly state your numbers, but also provide an accurate definition of the word "casual" that is accepted by everyone.

    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

    Ok well thought, how about this one, go to any mmo, find a super easy mission with a good reward, and try to calculate how much premium items this people are wearing, now go to a endgame super hardcore content and do it again...
    If you really belive what's important of this type of games is to just sell copies like if it was a singleplayer game, then you are pretty naive, I mean, there's a reason even singleplayers started to build DLC, and cosmetic kitten....

  • kraai.7265kraai.7265 Member ✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    So you are actually saying you would eat a plain cheese burger every single day just beacause it's easy to cook? Plus, if the content is challenging, wouldn't it meant people will repeat it? What happened that made players clear tables in record time and then just stop playing? Was it too braindead to even play again maybe? ... Isn't it better for anet to deliver repeatable content so they can take more time to produce the next patch?
    It's amusing how you can stand by a product that's actually sinking in quality as if it is something good, but meh, this is what's left of the real mmorpg communities I guess.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:
    HOT is indeed a lot harder than any of the GW2 content, but I wouldn't want it changed.

    Yes, hero points often can't be solood. But it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to ask in map chat for players to help out. Players in GW2 are very helpful and there are often large groups of players flocking through HoT's maps.

    No, it isn't Dark Souls hard. Dark Souls is easier than HoT's content and more forgiving. You've simply run into the first true obstacle in the game: content that is a bit of a challenge, and now you may find that the builds you've been using all this time aren't good enough.

    Yes, the map design is frustrating to navigate. It is what it is. Vertical maps are a pain.

    Yes, mobs are much tougher and more deadly than anywhere else in the game. But I think it is important to note why they are so much tougher. It's because most builds are really really bad. Players either go full glas cannon, with no defensive traits or skills what so ever, or they just do so little damage, that combat takes forever. I needed to revise my own build to deal with HoT, but I don't think that's a bad thing.

    Build issue is kinda a result of core. Core does not really matter much what build you use so you end up with the thinking what you run is great then hot comes and shows you werent as good you thought then a mmo is designed for solo it kinda failed its s a mmo you are after all supposed to play with others. Most issues could be solved by ramping difficulty up slowly in core so a learning curve exist

    they even had to nerf the starter zones, so how well do you think that will work out? never mind the fact, they would have to reverse all the other nerfs they have made over the years. we are talking about many manhours for the purpose of getting a smaller revenue. i wouldnt hold my breath on that one

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    First of all "YOU" liked core, not "we".
    Second, core tyria is hands down one of the most boring experiences I had in all the mmorpgs I've played, you just run around chasing vistas, completing those stupid hearts, yeah it might be cool that gw2 doesn't have any "go kill 50 bulls and come back" quests, yet those freaking hearts are the same or sometimes worst fun wise.
    There is not even a single mob that can kill you there unless you just afk, even world bosses, the best world boss design you will see it on that black phantom if you start as human, but thats it, a pretty huge mob with 3 crosshairs and a few animations, luckluster, and the endgame are dungeons, which are so easy, and need a huge revamp for so long already, it's pointless.
    I myself for example started enjoying the pve in this game after reaching hot, the old one, not this crappy nerfed version we got now, not only it's so heavily nerfed you have mounts to even skip the whole maps today, and quitted the game after watching how easy pof was, same as core but with more lag, oh sorry i mean more flashy colors and animations.

    the fact, that they nerfed hot is proof, that it didnt do well. and it is not normal to buy expansions in a game, that you HATE.
    polarization is always bad, and hot has divided the community, where it should had done the opposite
    pof has many issues too, being easier than hot wont save it. but at least it has normal maps to play on.
    the kind of gameplay you want prolly wont be in a big mmo (at least not for long)
    big mmos need many players, and you wont get those without some easy bread&butter content

    What proof? See, you don't even undersand why it was nerfed and then you come up with things like that as a supposed argument for your "truths". It got nerfed because after the obvious initial rise of activity when everyone was sitting in hot maps to complete the content/achievements/collections/whatever they wanted AND the release of another expansion+LW episodes, people are divided between zones more than before. Less people in ONE zone, because there's CONSTANTLY more zones in the game equals harder time to gather people needed to complete the content, which wasn't the problem before for obvious reasons. It doesn't prove anything you claim it does and it's perfectly understandable. Stop trying to bend the facts to match your agenda.

    if you believe, that ANY company will throw resources at a project, that isnt necessary, then i have some prime real estate to sell you
    no, they saw the server stats, and did the things, they thought would help
    what OTHER reasons would there be for a nerf of this kind?

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    HoT instances are only popular due to rewards.. If Tyria had the same rewards HOT would die over night.

    POF maps have the same rewards, require far less people to complete AND take far less time to complete. Yet they are much less populated than HOT maps. Makes you think right? And I thought the majority of players that play this game are casuals that enjoy the Core game, then how do you explain that more players play outside of it? How do you explain that Core Tyria was dead until the August 2013 patch hit? If players enjoyed it so much that is

    No it doesn't POF maps are highly unstable, but on a whole are just as popular as HoT. I play Core Tyria all the time and the maps don't seem dead at all, there are lots of customers in them.

    You've stated over the past several weeks many times that you quit this game for SWTOR.
    And now you are on Core maps "all the time"?

    I play Both, i also play Fallout 76 and Kingdoms of Amalur Re-Reckoning.. Your point is? Of course i play Tyria maps when i'm not trying to get characters through the stories, or chase hero points.. I'm not a sadist i prefer a less tough time in gaming.

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    First of all "YOU" liked core, not "we".
    Second, core tyria is hands down one of the most boring experiences I had in all the mmorpgs I've played, you just run around chasing vistas, completing those stupid hearts, yeah it might be cool that gw2 doesn't have any "go kill 50 bulls and come back" quests, yet those freaking hearts are the same or sometimes worst fun wise.
    There is not even a single mob that can kill you there unless you just afk, even world bosses, the best world boss design you will see it on that black phantom if you start as human, but thats it, a pretty huge mob with 3 crosshairs and a few animations, luckluster, and the endgame are dungeons, which are so easy, and need a huge revamp for so long already, it's pointless.
    I myself for example started enjoying the pve in this game after reaching hot, the old one, not this crappy nerfed version we got now, not only it's so heavily nerfed you have mounts to even skip the whole maps today, and quitted the game after watching how easy pof was, same as core but with more lag, oh sorry i mean more flashy colors and animations.

    the fact, that they nerfed hot is proof, that it didnt do well. and it is not normal to buy expansions in a game, that you HATE.
    polarization is always bad, and hot has divided the community, where it should had done the opposite
    pof has many issues too, being easier than hot wont save it. but at least it has normal maps to play on.
    the kind of gameplay you want prolly wont be in a big mmo (at least not for long)
    big mmos need many players, and you wont get those without some easy bread&butter content

    They didn't nerf the right aspects, thats the issue, at least my issue..

    hot will never click with casuals, since you cant nerf the maps. even without mobs i still wouldnt like it.
    and the story doesnt help either, good lord, what were they thinking?

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    if they were "popular", there would be more than a handful instances. 1 mio hot players would require something like 5000 ACTIVE instances.
    now count them , and compare the numbers. having a handful of them is "functional", nothing more

    The core game which sold 5 million never had 5000 active instances either. If it was so popular it should've had (using your number) 25000 ACTIVE instances, but it never had that many. Not even close

    and that is industry standard. they still had over a mio players, that was ready for more. a number, that was magically halfed with the arrival pof.
    i expect pof to to have roughly the same effect. now youre looking at 200-300 k sales for cantha. i wont be surprised if ncsoft has to step in again

    How do you figure they had over a million players when HOT launched?
    Your source about that number halved with the arrival of POF?

    So let me get this, it's industry standard for a game to lose 90% of their playerbase and no cause for concern, or cause for that core game to make changes, but if an expansion loses players it's the end of the world and it's not an industry standard. Nice logic there

    never said PLAYERS, but AFAIR, they sold something like 1,2 mio hot copies in the 1st month.
    the source game again? it was some article about a month after pof launch, where they confirmed something like ½ mio sales in the 1st month
    and they ARE trying to do something about it. that is why you see all those hated nerfs. difficulty spikes are remnants from the old arcade games,
    and they are finally on the way out .
    it is also much harder to sell a new game to person, if they havent finished the 1st one yet

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    hot will never click with casuals, since you cant nerf the maps. even without mobs i still wouldnt like it.

    At this point, the only thing I have to say is: "Who cares?"

    Most of the maps have aged incredibly well. Leveling up the masteries actually does feel like you're unlocking new ways to navigate the entire space — even the PoF mounts often feel more powerful, more game-changing in HoT maps than in PoF or Season 4 maps. Various things I found annoying before, I actually like now, because I built up my tools for exploring the maps and also they sorta clicked.

    While it's still not my favorite part of the game, it helps provide the context for everything else. And some of the ways the maps tried to surprise you and challenge you make for good experiences long after you're mastered those bits. Dodging a Mordrem Sniper's big attack feels great. AOE-bombing a whole pack of Pocket Raptors to death feels great. Cheesing your way past the Avatar of Balthazar feels great. Saving the whole Dragon's Stand meta with a timely rotation from run-around squad to boss squad feels great. Flying a Griffon through Verdant Brink feels AMAZING.

    I want more people to experience all these things, even if they terrify you a little bit when you first encounter them. The payoff is there, and it really doesn't take a lot of repetition to get to it. (Like I said before, I mostly avoid repetition in this game.)

    It's okay not to like it. But it's amazing to me how "casual" has been redefined to mean "I don't want to learn anything, ever, or experience novel gameplay in any form." Because one of the hallmarks of casual play in my mind is a focus on entertaining experiences.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    So you are actually saying you would eat a plain cheese burger every single day just beacause it's easy to cook? Plus, if the content is challenging, wouldn't it meant people will repeat it? What happened that made players clear tables in record time and then just stop playing? Was it too braindead to even play again maybe? ... Isn't it better for anet to deliver repeatable content so they can take more time to produce the next patch?
    It's amusing how you can stand by a product that's actually sinking in quality as if it is something good, but meh, this is what's left of the real mmorpg communities I guess.

    no, im saying, that macd and burger king are making big money, because people like easy things. most people could prolly make a much better burger themselves,
    but they cant even be bothered to try. if people liked the HARD way, they wouldnt sell so many dishwashers etc.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    hot will never click with casuals, since you cant nerf the maps. even without mobs i still wouldnt like it.

    At this point, the only thing I have to say is: "Who cares?"

    Most of the maps have aged incredibly well. Leveling up the masteries actually does feel like you're unlocking new ways to navigate the entire space — even the PoF mounts often feel more powerful, more game-changing in HoT maps than in PoF or Season 4 maps. Various things I found annoying before, I actually like now, because I built up my tools for exploring the maps and also they sorta clicked.

    While it's still not my favorite part of the game, it helps provide the context for everything else. And some of the ways the maps tried to surprise you and challenge you make for good experiences long after you're mastered those bits. Dodging a Mordrem Sniper's big attack feels great. AOE-bombing a whole pack of Pocket Raptors to death feels great. Cheesing your way past the Avatar of Balthazar feels great. Saving the whole Dragon's Stand meta with a timely rotation from run-around squad to boss squad feels great. Flying a Griffon through Verdant Brink feels AMAZING.

    I want more people to experience all these things, even if they terrify you a little bit when you first encounter them. The payoff is there, and it really doesn't take a lot of repetition to get to it. (Like I said before, I mostly avoid repetition in this game.)

    It's okay not to like it. But it's amazing to me how "casual" has been redefined to mean "I don't want to learn anything, ever, or experience novel gameplay in any form." Because one of the hallmarks of casual play in my mind is a focus on entertaining experiences.

    the payoff was there for YOU. lets see, what category would computer games be listed under...food? no. pets? nada. gardening? nope.
    oh wait, they are actually in the ENTERTAINMENT category. what a coincidence...

  • @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    So you are actually saying you would eat a plain cheese burger every single day just beacause it's easy to cook? Plus, if the content is challenging, wouldn't it meant people will repeat it? What happened that made players clear tables in record time and then just stop playing? Was it too braindead to even play again maybe? ... Isn't it better for anet to deliver repeatable content so they can take more time to produce the next patch?
    It's amusing how you can stand by a product that's actually sinking in quality as if it is something good, but meh, this is what's left of the real mmorpg communities I guess.

    no, im saying, that macd and burger king are making big money, because people like easy things. most people could prolly make a much better burger themselves,
    but they cant even be bothered to try. if people liked the HARD way, they wouldnt sell so many dishwashers etc.

    Well, that's certainly getting way off the mark for gaming, isn't it? Do you walk to work every day, or drive? Maybe you ride your bicycle? Hey, tractors make farming way too easy, maybe they should go back to manually plowing fields? Do you own a washer and dryer for your laundry, or are you still doing it by hand at a stream/river? Maybe Mc D and Burger King make big money because of people like how I used to be, instead? You know, people that show up for their construction job at sunrise, and work 14 hours, and decide to grab dinner on the way home? Maybe people use dishwashers so that they can have a bit more down time after a busy day at work? Maybe people game for the same reasons, instead of treating it like that full time job they report to every day?

    There's a whole laundry list of reasons people opt for conveniences these days aside from your catchall of "they're just lazy". I may not agree with "this is too hard, it needs to be nerfed", but I'm not going to just jump to "well, if you weren't so lazy, you could do it" either.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Well, that's certainly getting way off the mark for gaming, isn't it?

    this whole thread and the other one is already way off the mark from the original topic. how the hell did mcd and bk, fastfood of all things, become part of the argument?

  • @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Well, that's certainly getting way off the mark for gaming, isn't it?

    this whole thread and the other one is already way off the mark from the original topic. how the hell did mcd and bk, fastfood of all things, become part of the argument?

    I've got no idea...

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    the source game again? it was some article about a month after pof launch, where they confirmed something like ½ mio sales in the 1st month

    When someone post outright lies, links that support further claims are required because their credibility is shattered.
    So I'll be waiting for that link claiming that POF sold 500k copies.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    First of all "YOU" liked core, not "we".
    Second, core tyria is hands down one of the most boring experiences I had in all the mmorpgs I've played, you just run around chasing vistas, completing those stupid hearts, yeah it might be cool that gw2 doesn't have any "go kill 50 bulls and come back" quests, yet those freaking hearts are the same or sometimes worst fun wise.
    There is not even a single mob that can kill you there unless you just afk, even world bosses, the best world boss design you will see it on that black phantom if you start as human, but thats it, a pretty huge mob with 3 crosshairs and a few animations, luckluster, and the endgame are dungeons, which are so easy, and need a huge revamp for so long already, it's pointless.
    I myself for example started enjoying the pve in this game after reaching hot, the old one, not this crappy nerfed version we got now, not only it's so heavily nerfed you have mounts to even skip the whole maps today, and quitted the game after watching how easy pof was, same as core but with more lag, oh sorry i mean more flashy colors and animations.

    the fact, that they nerfed hot is proof, that it didnt do well. and it is not normal to buy expansions in a game, that you HATE.
    polarization is always bad, and hot has divided the community, where it should had done the opposite
    pof has many issues too, being easier than hot wont save it. but at least it has normal maps to play on.
    the kind of gameplay you want prolly wont be in a big mmo (at least not for long)
    big mmos need many players, and you wont get those without some easy bread&butter content

    What proof? See, you don't even undersand why it was nerfed and then you come up with things like that as a supposed argument for your "truths". It got nerfed because after the obvious initial rise of activity when everyone was sitting in hot maps to complete the content/achievements/collections/whatever they wanted AND the release of another expansion+LW episodes, people are divided between zones more than before. Less people in ONE zone, because there's CONSTANTLY more zones in the game equals harder time to gather people needed to complete the content, which wasn't the problem before for obvious reasons. It doesn't prove anything you claim it does and it's perfectly understandable. Stop trying to bend the facts to match your agenda.

    if you believe, that ANY company will throw resources at a project, that isnt necessary, then i have some prime real estate to sell you
    no, they saw the server stats, and did the things, they thought would help
    what OTHER reasons would there be for a nerf of this kind?

    How is this even negating what I said? Literally, walk me through your thought process where apparently what you said somehow denies what I said. Step after step.
    The nerf was needed, because there's less people in one map due to release of more content/maps in form of another expansion +many LS episodes over time. Where did I say it wasn't needed? What I said is that your take on this nerf is wrong because you want to make it fit your agenda and nothing in your answer contested what I said..

  • @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    Just play PoF. Tbh, if I have a good open world build with an elite specialization, i don't normally die in open world in HoT. Yeah for bosses I might need some help, but I think it's fine. HoT has a niche for the masochists in the community and I don't want to take that from them. Ask map for help if you're HP farming. Usually outside metas they're very willing to help. Or heck, make your own group, people will join. It's happened for me.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME

    You said earlier that casuals don't pay for this game so this is a weird statement.

    they HAD millions, but not anymore. out of 5 mio sold boxes, 3½-4 mio went to casuals. . thats over 150 MIO $ pretty much from start.
    those 150 mio is the major reason for the easiness of core. they wanted those money, but they didnt want to make more content for the casuals.
    that is why we are here now

    Source? You posted numerous times your claims about sales but I've never seen anything that verifies them. There is a confusion and debate on this thread alone on what the word "casual" even mean, I'm sure the data you have will not only clearly state your numbers, but also provide an accurate definition of the word "casual" that is accepted by everyone.

    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

    Ok well thought, how about this one, go to any mmo, find a super easy mission with a good reward, and try to calculate how much premium items this people are wearing, now go to a endgame super hardcore content and do it again...
    If you really belive what's important of this type of games is to just sell copies like if it was a singleplayer game, then you are pretty naive, I mean, there's a reason even singleplayers started to build DLC, and cosmetic kitten....

    Actually more casuals buy premium stuff than hardcores, because hardcores are a lot smaller population of players.

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    HoT instances are only popular due to rewards.. If Tyria had the same rewards HOT would die over night.

    POF maps have the same rewards, require far less people to complete AND take far less time to complete. Yet they are much less populated than HOT maps. Makes you think right? And I thought the majority of players that play this game are casuals that enjoy the Core game, then how do you explain that more players play outside of it? How do you explain that Core Tyria was dead until the August 2013 patch hit? If players enjoyed it so much that is

    No it doesn't POF maps are highly unstable, but on a whole are just as popular as HoT. I play Core Tyria all the time and the maps don't seem dead at all, there are lots of customers in them.

    You've stated over the past several weeks many times that you quit this game for SWTOR.
    And now you are on Core maps "all the time"?

    I play Both, i also play Fallout 76 and Kingdoms of Amalur Re-Reckoning.. Your point is? Of course i play Tyria maps when i'm not trying to get characters through the stories, or chase hero points.. I'm not a sadist i prefer a less tough time in gaming.

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    First of all "YOU" liked core, not "we".
    Second, core tyria is hands down one of the most boring experiences I had in all the mmorpgs I've played, you just run around chasing vistas, completing those stupid hearts, yeah it might be cool that gw2 doesn't have any "go kill 50 bulls and come back" quests, yet those freaking hearts are the same or sometimes worst fun wise.
    There is not even a single mob that can kill you there unless you just afk, even world bosses, the best world boss design you will see it on that black phantom if you start as human, but thats it, a pretty huge mob with 3 crosshairs and a few animations, luckluster, and the endgame are dungeons, which are so easy, and need a huge revamp for so long already, it's pointless.
    I myself for example started enjoying the pve in this game after reaching hot, the old one, not this crappy nerfed version we got now, not only it's so heavily nerfed you have mounts to even skip the whole maps today, and quitted the game after watching how easy pof was, same as core but with more lag, oh sorry i mean more flashy colors and animations.

    the fact, that they nerfed hot is proof, that it didnt do well. and it is not normal to buy expansions in a game, that you HATE.
    polarization is always bad, and hot has divided the community, where it should had done the opposite
    pof has many issues too, being easier than hot wont save it. but at least it has normal maps to play on.
    the kind of gameplay you want prolly wont be in a big mmo (at least not for long)
    big mmos need many players, and you wont get those without some easy bread&butter content

    They didn't nerf the right aspects, thats the issue, at least my issue..

    hot will never click with casuals, since you cant nerf the maps. even without mobs i still wouldnt like it.
    and the story doesnt help either, good lord, what were they thinking?

    You can, you lower the enemies damage ticks, lower how many conditions enemies put on customers, and lower the scaling damage at hero points that would go a long way to making hot more accessible over night.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    First of all "YOU" liked core, not "we".
    Second, core tyria is hands down one of the most boring experiences I had in all the mmorpgs I've played, you just run around chasing vistas, completing those stupid hearts, yeah it might be cool that gw2 doesn't have any "go kill 50 bulls and come back" quests, yet those freaking hearts are the same or sometimes worst fun wise.
    There is not even a single mob that can kill you there unless you just afk, even world bosses, the best world boss design you will see it on that black phantom if you start as human, but thats it, a pretty huge mob with 3 crosshairs and a few animations, luckluster, and the endgame are dungeons, which are so easy, and need a huge revamp for so long already, it's pointless.
    I myself for example started enjoying the pve in this game after reaching hot, the old one, not this crappy nerfed version we got now, not only it's so heavily nerfed you have mounts to even skip the whole maps today, and quitted the game after watching how easy pof was, same as core but with more lag, oh sorry i mean more flashy colors and animations.

    the fact, that they nerfed hot is proof, that it didnt do well. and it is not normal to buy expansions in a game, that you HATE.
    polarization is always bad, and hot has divided the community, where it should had done the opposite
    pof has many issues too, being easier than hot wont save it. but at least it has normal maps to play on.
    the kind of gameplay you want prolly wont be in a big mmo (at least not for long)
    big mmos need many players, and you wont get those without some easy bread&butter content

    What proof? See, you don't even undersand why it was nerfed and then you come up with things like that as a supposed argument for your "truths". It got nerfed because after the obvious initial rise of activity when everyone was sitting in hot maps to complete the content/achievements/collections/whatever they wanted AND the release of another expansion+LW episodes, people are divided between zones more than before. Less people in ONE zone, because there's CONSTANTLY more zones in the game equals harder time to gather people needed to complete the content, which wasn't the problem before for obvious reasons. It doesn't prove anything you claim it does and it's perfectly understandable. Stop trying to bend the facts to match your agenda.

    if you believe, that ANY company will throw resources at a project, that isnt necessary, then i have some prime real estate to sell you
    no, they saw the server stats, and did the things, they thought would help
    what OTHER reasons would there be for a nerf of this kind?

    How is this even negating what I said? Literally, walk me through your thought process where apparently what you said somehow denies what I said. Step after step.
    The nerf was needed, because there's less people in one map due to release of more content/maps in form of another expansion +many LS episodes over time. Where did I say it wasn't needed? What I said is that your take on this nerf is wrong because you want to make it fit your agenda and nothing in your answer contested what I said..

    if that was the reason for the nerfs, then they should had nerfed MANY other zones too, as new zones was added
    that didnt happen, because the outcry wasnt large enough to make them bother
    hot was the stinker, that started it all

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME

    You said earlier that casuals don't pay for this game so this is a weird statement.

    they HAD millions, but not anymore. out of 5 mio sold boxes, 3½-4 mio went to casuals. . thats over 150 MIO $ pretty much from start.
    those 150 mio is the major reason for the easiness of core. they wanted those money, but they didnt want to make more content for the casuals.
    that is why we are here now

    Source? You posted numerous times your claims about sales but I've never seen anything that verifies them. There is a confusion and debate on this thread alone on what the word "casual" even mean, I'm sure the data you have will not only clearly state your numbers, but also provide an accurate definition of the word "casual" that is accepted by everyone.

    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

    Ok well thought, how about this one, go to any mmo, find a super easy mission with a good reward, and try to calculate how much premium items this people are wearing, now go to a endgame super hardcore content and do it again...
    If you really belive what's important of this type of games is to just sell copies like if it was a singleplayer game, then you are pretty naive, I mean, there's a reason even singleplayers started to build DLC, and cosmetic kitten....

    Actually more casuals buy premium stuff than hardcores, because hardcores are a lot smaller population of players.

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    HoT instances are only popular due to rewards.. If Tyria had the same rewards HOT would die over night.

    POF maps have the same rewards, require far less people to complete AND take far less time to complete. Yet they are much less populated than HOT maps. Makes you think right? And I thought the majority of players that play this game are casuals that enjoy the Core game, then how do you explain that more players play outside of it? How do you explain that Core Tyria was dead until the August 2013 patch hit? If players enjoyed it so much that is

    No it doesn't POF maps are highly unstable, but on a whole are just as popular as HoT. I play Core Tyria all the time and the maps don't seem dead at all, there are lots of customers in them.

    You've stated over the past several weeks many times that you quit this game for SWTOR.
    And now you are on Core maps "all the time"?

    I play Both, i also play Fallout 76 and Kingdoms of Amalur Re-Reckoning.. Your point is? Of course i play Tyria maps when i'm not trying to get characters through the stories, or chase hero points.. I'm not a sadist i prefer a less tough time in gaming.

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    First of all "YOU" liked core, not "we".
    Second, core tyria is hands down one of the most boring experiences I had in all the mmorpgs I've played, you just run around chasing vistas, completing those stupid hearts, yeah it might be cool that gw2 doesn't have any "go kill 50 bulls and come back" quests, yet those freaking hearts are the same or sometimes worst fun wise.
    There is not even a single mob that can kill you there unless you just afk, even world bosses, the best world boss design you will see it on that black phantom if you start as human, but thats it, a pretty huge mob with 3 crosshairs and a few animations, luckluster, and the endgame are dungeons, which are so easy, and need a huge revamp for so long already, it's pointless.
    I myself for example started enjoying the pve in this game after reaching hot, the old one, not this crappy nerfed version we got now, not only it's so heavily nerfed you have mounts to even skip the whole maps today, and quitted the game after watching how easy pof was, same as core but with more lag, oh sorry i mean more flashy colors and animations.

    the fact, that they nerfed hot is proof, that it didnt do well. and it is not normal to buy expansions in a game, that you HATE.
    polarization is always bad, and hot has divided the community, where it should had done the opposite
    pof has many issues too, being easier than hot wont save it. but at least it has normal maps to play on.
    the kind of gameplay you want prolly wont be in a big mmo (at least not for long)
    big mmos need many players, and you wont get those without some easy bread&butter content

    They didn't nerf the right aspects, thats the issue, at least my issue..

    hot will never click with casuals, since you cant nerf the maps. even without mobs i still wouldnt like it.
    and the story doesnt help either, good lord, what were they thinking?

    You can, you lower the enemies damage ticks, lower how many conditions enemies put on customers, and lower the scaling damage at hero points that would go a long way to making hot more accessible over night.

    accessible, yes. not enjoyable. the maps are simply not made for it, and the story is way too bloated
    BTW shouldnt it be possible to see how many has finished the hot chapter in AP?

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    the source game again? it was some article about a month after pof launch, where they confirmed something like ½ mio sales in the 1st month

    When someone post outright lies, links that support further claims are required because their credibility is shattered.
    So I'll be waiting for that link claiming that POF sold 500k copies.

    do you have another number? they werent exactly bragging about it, so 500k would seem reasonable IMO

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    So you are actually saying you would eat a plain cheese burger every single day just beacause it's easy to cook? Plus, if the content is challenging, wouldn't it meant people will repeat it? What happened that made players clear tables in record time and then just stop playing? Was it too braindead to even play again maybe? ... Isn't it better for anet to deliver repeatable content so they can take more time to produce the next patch?
    It's amusing how you can stand by a product that's actually sinking in quality as if it is something good, but meh, this is what's left of the real mmorpg communities I guess.

    no, im saying, that macd and burger king are making big money, because people like easy things. most people could prolly make a much better burger themselves,
    but they cant even be bothered to try. if people liked the HARD way, they wouldnt sell so many dishwashers etc.

    Well, that's certainly getting way off the mark for gaming, isn't it? Do you walk to work every day, or drive? Maybe you ride your bicycle? Hey, tractors make farming way too easy, maybe they should go back to manually plowing fields? Do you own a washer and dryer for your laundry, or are you still doing it by hand at a stream/river? Maybe Mc D and Burger King make big money because of people like how I used to be, instead? You know, people that show up for their construction job at sunrise, and work 14 hours, and decide to grab dinner on the way home? Maybe people use dishwashers so that they can have a bit more down time after a busy day at work? Maybe people game for the same reasons, instead of treating it like that full time job they report to every day?

    There's a whole laundry list of reasons people opt for conveniences these days aside from your catchall of "they're just lazy". I may not agree with "this is too hard, it needs to be nerfed", but I'm not going to just jump to "well, if you weren't so lazy, you could do it" either.

    having a good reason for convenience doesnt stop those without good reasons from using them.
    and convenience IS laziness. people have obviously survived without them before, so they aren necessary per se
    doesnt mean, that i want to live without them, but i recognize them , for what they are
    just see what the pocket calculator did for the average kids math skills...

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    do you have another number? they werent exactly bragging about it, so 500k would seem reasonable IMO

    Beautiful. Makes claim, doesn't support claim, asks for "another number".
    Btw if you have forgotten this isn't just about how many sales POF had, but also how many HOT had, because your argument was that HOT sold a lot better than POF, 1 million versus 500k. An argument that you haven't supported with proper links yet.

    As for how "reasonable" 500k sales are: there are 251,852 gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT and 248,440 accounts that own POF
    In other words, you are saying that half of the owners of POF have a gw2efficiency account, that might be true but I find it highly unlikely. Further, if gw2efficiency was such a high percentage of the population then you'd think the direction of the game would be very different

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    BTW shouldnt it be possible to see how many has finished the hot chapter in AP?

    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    I'd call the numbers very stable.

    Edit:
    For reference 287,993 own Core
    209,735 gw2efficiency accounts completed Core, that's 73% of total Core accounts
    It's interesting to note that more players bought HOT or POF than completed Core

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Actually more casuals buy premium stuff than hardcores, because hardcores are a lot smaller population of players.

    Really depends on how you define "casual" and "hardcore," though. (And whether your definitions actually cover the whole player base or end up with a huge excluded middle.)

    The gem store is clearly designed to consistently market new things to people who log in weekly or daily (new Fashion Wars items plus rolling sales on a bunch of convenience items that mostly matter to users who farm a lot). The Black Lion Chest and weapon collection update cycles seem to assume that a significant minority of the player base — not clear how many exactly, but enough to warrant a significant chunk of artist work — is willing to "splurge" quite a bit every month or two. (How many people cracked 20-50 chests just to get the Vermilion Wings when they were introduced?)

    Is a hypothetical player playing about three hours a day and using micropayments to buy a new outfit or mount skin every couple of weeks for one of their twelve characters "casual" or "hardcore" in your taxonomy? Do you look at their achievement points to judge? Their mastery of the momentary nuts-and-bolts of action combat mechanics? Their understanding of the game's systems, like what buffs do or how to manage your inventory? Their build? Their gear quality? Their story progress? Their PvP participation? Does how they self-label matter at all?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Actually more casuals buy premium stuff than hardcores, because hardcores are a lot smaller population of players.

    That doesn't add up. NCSoft told us in late 2015 that in-game sales (gem store) for Guild Wars 2 were stable
    This means that one of the following phrases (or both) is false:

    Casuals left the game because of HOT
    Casuals buy more gem store items than hardcore players

    If both were true, then in-game sales wouldn't be called "stable" by NCSoft. If those that spend the most money left the game, then it would cause gem store revenue to drop, that's the opposite of being stable.

    edit: @battledrone.8315 said earlier on the same subject that hardcore players pay the bills for this game because they are the "whales" in Guild Wars 2

  • Mad Queen Malafide.7512Mad Queen Malafide.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    the fact, that they nerfed hot is proof, that it didnt do well. and it is not normal to buy expansions in a game, that you HATE.

    The only conclusion we can reasonably make, is that Anet perceived that Heart of Thorns content was a bit too challenging (which it was), so they made it easier. But it isn't proof of what you want it to be.

    And yet, Heart of Thorns is still plenty challenging, even with the reduction in difficulty. The best advise I can give to players struggling with it, is to first try their hand at Fractals and Path of Fire. And to not be too attached to the build that helped them get through the core game. Try out some new builds, and look at the builds other people have come up with. You don't have to follow the meta, but it doesn't hurt to learn from popular builds to improve your own. Also, the new specializations make your class A LOT more powerful.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    the fact, that they nerfed hot is proof, that it didnt do well. and it is not normal to buy expansions in a game, that you HATE.

    The only conclusion we can reasonably make, is that Anet perceived that Heart of Thorn's content was a bit too challenging (which it was), so they made it easier. But it isn't proof of what you want it to be.
    And yet, Heart of Thorns is still plenty challenging, even with the reduction in difficulty.

    They nerfed ONE mob. ONE. In terms of skill usage. They reduced the population of mobs in "interconnect areas", in places that connect two points, but there was NO reduction in mob density inside those areas (where the actual action is). They turned some champion HPs in Verdant Brink into veterans. That's the extend of the changes that made HOT "easier".

    The big change they did was changing how participation works so you no longer need to stay on a map for hours to increase your participation to get rewards after the meta. Also, they added new events that spawn -after- the main events are finished, so once camps in VB or TD are taken, when Pylons in AB are activated, new events spawn, because on release there was nothing to do on a complete map, other than wait for the meta.

    The "they nerfed HOT" meme is as accurate as the "they nerfed Orr" meme. Seriously, they made some tiny changes in both cases and people scream "nerf".

  • coso.9173coso.9173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    People are arguing over the same thing over and over again, but exaggerating their points so it doesn't even make sense anymore.
    People like to have fun and regards. A good level of difficulty makes it more rewarding. Too easy and it gets boring, too hard and it gets frustrating. Game is fine as it is now.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    I'd call the numbers very stable.

    Edit:
    For reference 287,993 own Core
    209,735 gw2efficiency accounts completed Core, that's 73% of total Core accounts
    It's interesting to note that more players bought HOT or POF than completed Core

    How can you come to these conclusions? Not every account is connected to GW2efficiency.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    I'd call the numbers very stable.

    Edit:
    For reference 287,993 own Core
    209,735 gw2efficiency accounts completed Core, that's 73% of total Core accounts
    It's interesting to note that more players bought HOT or POF than completed Core

    How can you come to these conclusions? Not every account is connected to GW2efficiency.

    Not sure I understand the question. We have both the total accounts registered on gw2efficiency and the completion rates.
    As for not every account being on gw2efficiency, tell @battledrone.8315 who says half of POF accounts have a gw2efficiency account

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    do you have another number? they werent exactly bragging about it, so 500k would seem reasonable IMO

    Beautiful. Makes claim, doesn't support claim, asks for "another number".
    Btw if you have forgotten this isn't just about how many sales POF had, but also how many HOT had, because your argument was that HOT sold a lot better than POF, 1 million versus 500k. An argument that you haven't supported with proper links yet.

    As for how "reasonable" 500k sales are: there are 251,852 gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT and 248,440 accounts that own POF
    In other words, you are saying that half of the owners of POF have a gw2efficiency account, that might be true but I find it highly unlikely. Further, if gw2efficiency was such a high percentage of the population then you'd think the direction of the game would be very different

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    BTW shouldnt it be possible to see how many has finished the hot chapter in AP?

    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    I'd call the numbers very stable.

    Edit:
    For reference 287,993 own Core
    209,735 gw2efficiency accounts completed Core, that's 73% of total Core accounts
    It's interesting to note that more players bought HOT or POF than completed Core

    quite a jump from 300k to 12 mio. but lets try and break it down
    0.66% of ALL gw2 accounts have completed hot
    and 7.2 % of the hot owners, that we know of
    if it was anything NEAR your claimed 71%, this thread prolly wouldnt exist, and hot would had started a new golden age for the game
    none of the wow expansion are close to 70%, not even the ones, that made the game grow 10 times bigger
    PS. and according to your "stats" pof and hot are equally good. a feeling ,that you will find very little support for among the real players.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    0.66% of ALL gw2 accounts have completed hot

    Source for that?

    and 7.2 % of the hot owners, that we know of

    Source for that?

    if it was anything NEAR your claimed 71%, this thread prolly wouldnt exist, and hot would had started a new golden age for the game

    Doing some simple math, 179,887 (gw2efficiency accounts that completed HOT) of 251,852 (gw2efficiency users that own HOT) gives us... 71%
    It's not rocket science, nor nuclear physics level.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    the fact, that they nerfed hot is proof, that it didnt do well. and it is not normal to buy expansions in a game, that you HATE.

    The only conclusion we can reasonably make, is that Anet perceived that Heart of Thorn's content was a bit too challenging (which it was), so they made it easier. But it isn't proof of what you want it to be.
    And yet, Heart of Thorns is still plenty challenging, even with the reduction in difficulty.

    They nerfed ONE mob. ONE. In terms of skill usage. They reduced the population of mobs in "interconnect areas", in places that connect two points, but there was NO reduction in mob density inside those areas (where the actual action is). They turned some champion HPs in Verdant Brink into veterans. That's the extend of the changes that made HOT "easier".

    The big change they did was changing how participation works so you no longer need to stay on a map for hours to increase your participation to get rewards after the meta. Also, they added new events that spawn -after- the main events are finished, so once camps in VB or TD are taken, when Pylons in AB are activated, new events spawn, because on release there was nothing to do on a complete map, other than wait for the meta.

    The "they nerfed HOT" meme is as accurate as the "they nerfed Orr" meme. Seriously, they made some tiny changes in both cases and people scream "nerf".

    i remember orr before the nerfs, and it was pretty much unplayable, unless you were in a zerg blob.
    i levelled a new toon in my last stint, and some of the missions have clearly been trimmed down and streamlined in core too

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    i remember orr before the nerfs, and it was pretty much unplayable, unless you were in a zerg blob.
    i levelled a new toon in my last stint, and some of the missions have clearly been trimmed down and streamlined in core too

    Not really. You just got better at playing the game, for the missions specifically there was little to no change. Other than Arah story mode of course.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    the fact, that they nerfed hot is proof, that it didnt do well. and it is not normal to buy expansions in a game, that you HATE.

    The only conclusion we can reasonably make, is that Anet perceived that Heart of Thorns content was a bit too challenging (which it was), so they made it easier. But it isn't proof of what you want it to be.

    And yet, Heart of Thorns is still plenty challenging, even with the reduction in difficulty. The best advise I can give to players struggling with it, is to first try their hand at Fractals and Path of Fire. And to not be too attached to the build that helped them get through the core game. Try out some new builds, and look at the builds other people have come up with. You don't have to follow the meta, but it doesn't hurt to learn from popular builds to improve your own. Also, the new specializations make your class A LOT more powerful.

    when a player choses to use the same build through the whole core game, its pretty safe to say, that they LOVE that build.

    even worse, it is the build, that they KNOW how to play. changing the rules so late in the game is sheer stupidity, and its going to
    kitten off most players. they chose that role for a good reason. and if it is wrong, then it has to be so from the start

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    0.66% of ALL gw2 accounts have completed hot

    Source for that?

    and 7.2 % of the hot owners, that we know of

    Source for that?

    if it was anything NEAR your claimed 71%, this thread prolly wouldnt exist, and hot would had started a new golden age for the game

    Doing some simple math, 179,887 (gw2efficiency accounts that completed HOT) of 251,852 (gw2efficiency users that own HOT) gives us... 71%
    It's not rocket science, nor nuclear physics level.

    they proudly sport the 12 mio number in the ads.

    and if they only had 300k players, ncsoft would had shut them down in a heartbeat
    CoX had roughly 300k subs when they shut it down, wildstar was in the same position
    300k player is simply not enough to pay for such a big team of devs.
    champions online is a 300k player game i play, they have around a dozen devs left
    STO have a couple of mio players, so they can afford around 50
    DCUO is around a mio players, and they have 30
    do you see the pattern here?
    PS forgot APB, roughly 100k players, and they have 3 devs

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    i remember orr before the nerfs, and it was pretty much unplayable, unless you were in a zerg blob.
    i levelled a new toon in my last stint, and some of the missions have clearly been trimmed down and streamlined in core too

    Not really. You just got better at playing the game, for the missions specifically there was little to no change. Other than Arah story mode of course.

    but you said, that casuals cant learn anything....never mind the fact, that you can actually SEE the change.
    like i said, i was there before the nerfs. most blobs didnt even survive back then. we got whittled down slowly by the relentless waves
    now its only a little harder, than the rest of core

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    I'd call the numbers very stable.

    Edit:
    For reference 287,993 own Core
    209,735 gw2efficiency accounts completed Core, that's 73% of total Core accounts
    It's interesting to note that more players bought HOT or POF than completed Core

    How can you come to these conclusions? Not every account is connected to GW2efficiency.

    300k out of 12 mio. and casuals would never use it either. it is echo chambering and fart sniffing par excellence.
    saw the same happen in wow forums. and in swtors. the same forum warriors white knighting the bad decisions, while the games continued to bleed players
    my take is, that they are actually paid saboteurs from the other mmos. they are clearly not stupid, so they HAVE to understand the basics of economy
    and human emotions

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    I'd call the numbers very stable.

    Edit:
    For reference 287,993 own Core
    209,735 gw2efficiency accounts completed Core, that's 73% of total Core accounts
    It's interesting to note that more players bought HOT or POF than completed Core

    How can you come to these conclusions? Not every account is connected to GW2efficiency.

    Not sure I understand the question. We have both the total accounts registered on gw2efficiency and the completion rates.
    As for not every account being on gw2efficiency, tell @battledrone.8315 who says half of POF accounts have a gw2efficiency account

    It's simple, really: I'm not registered at gw2efficiency. Do I own PoF or HoT? What about the associated LWS? How many of those releases have I completed, if any, and have I even completed core Tyria yet? You're looking at a site that, according to the numbers provided, doesn't even represent a realistic fraction of the total registered accounts. There were something like 11 million accounts, and not even 300K are registered at gw2efficiency? That's like saying "all my friends", it sounds like it's a great argument, but if you don't have 6 million or so friends playing, it's also pointless. I'm waiting for the Steam launch, so that people can start pointing to the Steam charts to claim how dead the game is... It's not like they don't do it everywhere else that goes through Steam, when it's not the only way to connect.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    0.66% of ALL gw2 accounts have completed hot

    Source for that?

    and 7.2 % of the hot owners, that we know of

    Source for that?

    if it was anything NEAR your claimed 71%, this thread prolly wouldnt exist, and hot would had started a new golden age for the game

    Doing some simple math, 179,887 (gw2efficiency accounts that completed HOT) of 251,852 (gw2efficiency users that own HOT) gives us... 71%
    It's not rocket science, nor nuclear physics level.

    they proudly sport the 12 mio number in the ads.

    and if they only had 300k players, ncsoft would had shut them down in a heartbeat
    CoX had roughly 300k subs when they shut it down, wildstar was in the same position
    300k player is simply not enough to pay for such a big team of devs.
    champions online is a 300k player game i play, they have around a dozen devs left
    STO have a couple of mio players, so they can afford around 50
    DCUO is around a mio players, and they have 30
    do you see the pattern here?
    PS forgot APB, roughly 100k players, and they have 3 devs

    I'm waiting for your sources backing up your claims about numbers.
    Specifically these two:

    0.66% of ALL gw2 accounts have completed hot
    and 7.2 % of the hot owners, that we know of

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    but you said, that casuals cant learn anything....

    Where? Again with these claims
    For once I'd like to see links with quotes and sources from you, or rather I'll be waiting for one before responding again.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    I'd call the numbers very stable.

    Edit:
    For reference 287,993 own Core
    209,735 gw2efficiency accounts completed Core, that's 73% of total Core accounts
    It's interesting to note that more players bought HOT or POF than completed Core

    How can you come to these conclusions? Not every account is connected to GW2efficiency.

    Not sure I understand the question. We have both the total accounts registered on gw2efficiency and the completion rates.
    As for not every account being on gw2efficiency, tell @battledrone.8315 who says half of POF accounts have a gw2efficiency account

    It's simple, really: I'm not registered at gw2efficiency. Do I own PoF or HoT? What about the associated LWS? How many of those releases have I completed, if any, and have I even completed core Tyria yet? You're looking at a site that, according to the numbers provided, doesn't even represent a realistic fraction of the total registered accounts. There were something like 11 million accounts, and not even 300K are registered at gw2efficiency? That's like saying "all my friends", it sounds like it's a great argument, but if you don't have 6 million or so friends playing, it's also pointless. I'm waiting for the Steam launch, so that people can start pointing to the Steam charts to claim how dead the game is... It's not like they don't do it everywhere else that goes through Steam, when it's not the only way to connect.

    I'm not sure what you are on about here. I gave the numbers of accounts on gw2efficiency and the number of accounts that finished HOT, POF and Core. So you are either trolling here or have a severe reading comprehension problem.

    doesn't even represent a realistic fraction of the total registered accounts

    Are you sure? @battledrone.8315 said Anet "announced" that POF only sold 500k, which means the 250k gw2efficiency POF owners is a very realistic fraction of the total registered accounts.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    I'd call the numbers very stable.

    Edit:
    For reference 287,993 own Core
    209,735 gw2efficiency accounts completed Core, that's 73% of total Core accounts
    It's interesting to note that more players bought HOT or POF than completed Core

    How can you come to these conclusions? Not every account is connected to GW2efficiency.

    Not sure I understand the question. We have both the total accounts registered on gw2efficiency and the completion rates.
    As for not every account being on gw2efficiency, tell @battledrone.8315 who says half of POF accounts have a gw2efficiency account

    It's simple, really: I'm not registered at gw2efficiency. Do I own PoF or HoT? What about the associated LWS? How many of those releases have I completed, if any, and have I even completed core Tyria yet? You're looking at a site that, according to the numbers provided, doesn't even represent a realistic fraction of the total registered accounts. There were something like 11 million accounts, and not even 300K are registered at gw2efficiency? That's like saying "all my friends", it sounds like it's a great argument, but if you don't have 6 million or so friends playing, it's also pointless. I'm waiting for the Steam launch, so that people can start pointing to the Steam charts to claim how dead the game is... It's not like they don't do it everywhere else that goes through Steam, when it's not the only way to connect.

    I'm not sure what you are on about here. I gave the numbers of accounts on gw2efficiency and the number of accounts that finished HOT, POF and Core. So you are either trolling here or have a severe reading comprehension problem.

    No, I'm not the one with the problem. You're basing your claims on something like 3% of the entire game's population. I don't care what a third party site is tracking, given that you have to be registered there to track it. The comprehension problem here is thinking that that 3% is indicative of much of anything at all. You see, we have much more reliable metrics to track, tied directly to the game. I also wouldn't take the forums at face value, since only about 15% of a game's population uses them with anything like regularity. Comparatively, however, I'd take the forums over gw2efficiency, since even at the numbers I'm speculating on here, they're far more representative.

    If you're trying to say that your numbers are more accurate because gw2efficiency can track everyone that logs in, then ANet has some serious privacy issues upcoming. You're using your bubble trying to claim everyone else fits in it, and yet, I'll note, you couldn't answer the questions I posed. Why is that, do you suppose? Is it because, since I'm not registered, I don't fit into your bubble? I'll also point out that you end with the usual copouts, "trolling or reading comprehension problem". Neither address the issue, but they do make it easier for you to try to sweep it under the carpet, instead of addressing the fact that what's happening on your fansite may not be indicative of what's actually happening in game. One can try to draw some parallels, but trying to claim correlation to the rest of the game is magnitudes of fail. If you could use it to site several million players, maybe it's closer to representative, but at this percentage, it's why all the pollsters were shocked in 2016.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    No, I'm not the one with the problem. You're basing your claims on something like 3% of the entire game's population. I don't care what a third party site is tracking, given that you have to be registered there to track it. The comprehension problem here is thinking that that 3% is indicative of much of anything at all. You see, we have much more reliable metrics to track, tied directly to the game. I also wouldn't take the forums at face value, since only about 15% of a game's population uses them with anything like regularity. Comparatively, however, I'd take the forums over gw2efficiency, since even at the numbers I'm speculating on here, they're far more representative.

    If you're trying to say that your numbers are more accurate because gw2efficiency can track everyone that logs in, then ANet has some serious privacy issues upcoming. You're using your bubble trying to claim everyone else fits in it, and yet, I'll note, you couldn't answer the questions I posed. Why is that, do you suppose? Is it because, since I'm not registered, I don't fit into your bubble? I'll also point out that you end with the usual copouts, "trolling or reading comprehension problem". Neither address the issue, but they do make it easier for you to try to sweep it under the carpet, instead of addressing the fact that what's happening on your fansite may not be indicative of what's actually happening in game. One can try to draw some parallels, but trying to claim correlation to the rest of the game is magnitudes of fail. If you could use it to site several million players, maybe it's closer to representative, but at this percentage, it's why all the pollsters were shocked in 2016.

    Please reread the post you quoted. ALL of it next time not just the part @kharmin.7683 chose to nitpick.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343447/#Comment_1343447

    Let's go over it one more time.

    As for how "reasonable" 500k sales are: there are 251,852 gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT and 248,440 accounts that own POF
    In other words, you are saying that half of the owners of POF have a gw2efficiency account, that might be true but I find it highly unlikely. Further, if gw2efficiency was > such a high percentage of the population then you'd think the direction of the game would be very different

    I gave the number of gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT (251,852) and POF (248,440) to counter the argument that POF sold only 500k.

    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    Here I perform some primary school math
    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts out of the 251,852 that own HOT is 71.4%
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts out of the 248,440 that own POF is 72.2%

    Nowhere in that post did I make ANY claims over the total population of the game. I never said anything about what those numbers indicate about the total game either, those were added by you, because you picked @kharmin.7683 quote out of context. If you read the entire post (and know primary school math) you can see the entire picture.

    Edit: and it's really weird, someone made a claim about POF selling only 500k, I counter that by saying gw2efficiency POF owners are half of that, and people get up in arms about the number of gw2efficiency "not being representative of the total" and not about the statement of POF selling only 500k. Seriously what's wrong with people around here?

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    and if it isnt, then there wont be millions of casuals to pay for THE GAME

    You said earlier that casuals don't pay for this game so this is a weird statement.

    they HAD millions, but not anymore. out of 5 mio sold boxes, 3½-4 mio went to casuals. . thats over 150 MIO $ pretty much from start.
    those 150 mio is the major reason for the easiness of core. they wanted those money, but they didnt want to make more content for the casuals.
    that is why we are here now

    Source? You posted numerous times your claims about sales but I've never seen anything that verifies them. There is a confusion and debate on this thread alone on what the word "casual" even mean, I'm sure the data you have will not only clearly state your numbers, but also provide an accurate definition of the word "casual" that is accepted by everyone.

    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

    Ok well thought, how about this one, go to any mmo, find a super easy mission with a good reward, and try to calculate how much premium items this people are wearing, now go to a endgame super hardcore content and do it again...
    If you really belive what's important of this type of games is to just sell copies like if it was a singleplayer game, then you are pretty naive, I mean, there's a reason even singleplayers started to build DLC, and cosmetic kitten....

    Actually more casuals buy premium stuff than hardcores, because hardcores are a lot smaller population of players.

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    HoT instances are only popular due to rewards.. If Tyria had the same rewards HOT would die over night.

    POF maps have the same rewards, require far less people to complete AND take far less time to complete. Yet they are much less populated than HOT maps. Makes you think right? And I thought the majority of players that play this game are casuals that enjoy the Core game, then how do you explain that more players play outside of it? How do you explain that Core Tyria was dead until the August 2013 patch hit? If players enjoyed it so much that is

    No it doesn't POF maps are highly unstable, but on a whole are just as popular as HoT. I play Core Tyria all the time and the maps don't seem dead at all, there are lots of customers in them.

    You've stated over the past several weeks many times that you quit this game for SWTOR.
    And now you are on Core maps "all the time"?

    I play Both, i also play Fallout 76 and Kingdoms of Amalur Re-Reckoning.. Your point is? Of course i play Tyria maps when i'm not trying to get characters through the stories, or chase hero points.. I'm not a sadist i prefer a less tough time in gaming.

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    First of all "YOU" liked core, not "we".
    Second, core tyria is hands down one of the most boring experiences I had in all the mmorpgs I've played, you just run around chasing vistas, completing those stupid hearts, yeah it might be cool that gw2 doesn't have any "go kill 50 bulls and come back" quests, yet those freaking hearts are the same or sometimes worst fun wise.
    There is not even a single mob that can kill you there unless you just afk, even world bosses, the best world boss design you will see it on that black phantom if you start as human, but thats it, a pretty huge mob with 3 crosshairs and a few animations, luckluster, and the endgame are dungeons, which are so easy, and need a huge revamp for so long already, it's pointless.
    I myself for example started enjoying the pve in this game after reaching hot, the old one, not this crappy nerfed version we got now, not only it's so heavily nerfed you have mounts to even skip the whole maps today, and quitted the game after watching how easy pof was, same as core but with more lag, oh sorry i mean more flashy colors and animations.

    the fact, that they nerfed hot is proof, that it didnt do well. and it is not normal to buy expansions in a game, that you HATE.
    polarization is always bad, and hot has divided the community, where it should had done the opposite
    pof has many issues too, being easier than hot wont save it. but at least it has normal maps to play on.
    the kind of gameplay you want prolly wont be in a big mmo (at least not for long)
    big mmos need many players, and you wont get those without some easy bread&butter content

    They didn't nerf the right aspects, thats the issue, at least my issue..

    hot will never click with casuals, since you cant nerf the maps. even without mobs i still wouldnt like it.
    and the story doesnt help either, good lord, what were they thinking?

    You can, you lower the enemies damage ticks, lower how many conditions enemies put on customers, and lower the scaling damage at hero points that would go a long way to making hot more accessible over night.

    accessible, yes. not enjoyable. the maps are simply not made for it, and the story is way too bloated
    BTW shouldnt it be possible to see how many has finished the hot chapter in AP?

    Depends on the person, would make hot a lot better for me instantly.. seems you changed sides huh you are with the white knights now.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Actually more casuals buy premium stuff than hardcores, because hardcores are a lot smaller population of players.

    That doesn't add up. NCSoft told us in late 2015 that in-game sales (gem store) for Guild Wars 2 were stable
    This means that one of the following phrases (or both) is false:

    Casuals left the game because of HOT
    Casuals buy more gem store items than hardcore players

    If both were true, then in-game sales wouldn't be called "stable" by NCSoft. If those that spend the most money left the game, then it would cause gem store revenue to drop, that's the opposite of being stable.

    edit: @battledrone.8315 said earlier on the same subject that hardcore players pay the bills for this game because they are the "whales" in Guild Wars 2

    Many of the customers that left at HoT release came back many times since then.. And no whales come in all types of players.. Whales by definition don't like hard work so they throw money, lots of it at the companies to mitigate it..

    Either way you believe whatever you like, hardcores may run the forums because then Anet doesn't need to do jack squat, but Casuals run the game and throw most of the money at anet and ncsoft.

    Its 100% like that in every mmorpg.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    out of 12 mio. and casuals would never use it either. it is echo chambering and fart sniffing par excellence.

    It takes 10 seconds to upload an API key; you don't even need to create an account.

    People recommend gw2efficiency all the time to casual players asking "How do I make money??" because it is by far the easiest way for people who DON'T play the market, and DON'T farm, and maybe don't even craft at all to find hidden valuables just sitting uselessly in their bank and material storage.

    It's very helpful for a lot of fun, low-effort stuff like birthday presents or starting a cat collection. (Try it out: go to gw2efficiency and collect some cats for your home instance.)

    You're absolutely married to the idea that "casual players" are know-nothing louts who can barely figure out how to play a dang video game — because that puts you in the position of being able to speak for the faceless masses who would never be caught dead pressing the dodge button at the right time or experimenting with their character abilities or using a website — when the reality is that there isn't a hard-line division between these categories and a lot of the player base is doing both "casual" stuff and "hardcore" stuff at the same time.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I wasn't nitpicking so much as not comprehending how you come to saying this:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    It's the "total" HOT and POF accounts that I was questioning. It seems like you are advocating "total" to mean each and every GW2 account whether it is logged in GW2Efficiency or not.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    I wasn't nitpicking so much as not comprehending how you come to saying this:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    It's the "total" HOT and POF accounts that I was questioning. It seems like you are advocating "total" to mean each and every GW2 account whether it is logged in GW2Efficiency or not.

    You couldn't comprehend how 179,887 is 71.4% of 251,852?
    Here I'll show you how to figure it out:
    179887 is X
    251852 is 100
    So with this we got: X = 179887 * 100 / 251852, if you use a common calculator, you'll get the magic 71.425678 or 71.4%
    I hope I made it clear and you now comprehend it. It's not nuclear physics.

    Other than math, you'd know what was meant if you took the time to read the previous part of the post which was rather clear what I was referring to:

    As for how "reasonable" 500k sales are: there are 251,852 gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT and 248,440 accounts that own POF
    In other words, you are saying that half of the owners of POF have a gw2efficiency account, that might be true but I find it highly unlikely. Further, if gw2efficiency was such a high percentage of the population then you'd think the direction of the game would be very different

    Your nitpicking not only was false, not only did it attribute false impressions on my post but at the same time confused so many other posters as well. It all took a bit of very simple math to figure out the numbers,

  • @battledrone.8315 said:

    when a player choses to use the same build through the whole core game, its pretty safe to say, that they LOVE that build.
    even worse, it is the build, that they KNOW how to play. changing the rules so late in the game is sheer stupidity, and its going to
    kitten off most players. they chose that role for a good reason. and if it is wrong, then it has to be so from the start

    First of all, that last line was not in my original quote, so I presume it was meant to be the first line of your argument (corrected above). You may have made a minor mistake when assembling your post, so that one of your sentences got added to the end of your quote of my post. Regardless...

    To address your argument darling, I think it is fair to say that most players don't choose a role when they play the game. They put together some skills that they like, and then play through most of the game with that build. Since the core game barely challenges anyone, it is quite possible for that build to be a really REALLY bad build. Even if it is a build they "know how to play" and "love", it might simply be terrible. So when such a player then tries HoT, they run into a brick wall.

    Before the release of HoT, these forums were full of people asking for better and more challenging combat. They weren't wrong, the core combat is pretty shallow and boring to be honest, mostly due to lack of interesting mechanics. A lot of those concerns were addressed in HoT and further refined in PoF and Living Story. Breakbars became a thing, bosses received phases, enemies received attacks and abilities that heavily punish players when they hit. Basically a huge overhaul of GW2's combat system.

    I think this change was badly needed to keep players interested, but it does mark a sudden change in difficulty. Especially players who didn't experience Living Story season 1 and 2 will be ill prepared for HoT throws at them. Plus HoT also seems more designed with groups of players in mind, rather than a solo experience. The tutorials of the game weren't updated to reflect these changes either, making HoT into this brick wall of difficulty for lots of players. It's understandable.