HoT = Dark Souls ? Casual Gamer perspective. - Page 14 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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HoT = Dark Souls ? Casual Gamer perspective.

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  • HoT doesn't seem harder than normal, you just can't stand on bad stuff. If your reaction time is bad then play a defensive class or build with defensive armor and runes. You can't go glass cannon with potato reaction time and complain.

  • Healix.5819Healix.5819 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Edit: and it's really weird, someone made a claim about POF selling only 500k, I counter that by saying gw2efficiency POF owners are half of that, and people get up in arms about the number of gw2efficiency "not being representative of the total" and not about the statement of POF selling only 500k. Seriously what's wrong with people around here?

    So you're saying Gw2Efficiency is a good representation because it currently has half the numbers that PoF sold in its first month?

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    I wasn't nitpicking so much as not comprehending how you come to saying this:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    It's the "total" HOT and POF accounts that I was questioning. It seems like you are advocating "total" to mean each and every GW2 account whether it is logged in GW2Efficiency or not.

    You couldn't comprehend how 179,887 is 71.4% of 251,852?
    Here I'll show you how to figure it out:
    179887 is X
    251852 is 100
    So with this we got: X = 179887 * 100 / 251852, if you use a common calculator, you'll get the magic 71.425678 or 71.4%
    I hope I made it clear and you now comprehend it. It's not nuclear physics.

    Other than math, you'd know what was meant if you took the time to read the previous part of the post which was rather clear what I was referring to:

    No need to be so defensive.
    So, your statistics are limited to accounts logged in to GW2efficiency and not ALL GW2 accounts. That's what I was trying to make clear. I now understand the baseline for the claims that you are making.

    As for how "reasonable" 500k sales are: there are 251,852 gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT and 248,440 accounts that own POF
    In other words, you are saying that half of the owners of POF have a gw2efficiency account, that might be true but I find it highly unlikely. Further, if gw2efficiency was such a high percentage of the population then you'd think the direction of the game would be very different

    Your nitpicking not only was false, not only did it attribute false impressions on my post but at the same time confused so many other posters as well. It all took a bit of very simple math to figure out the numbers,

    This wasn't my post, so please don't attribute this quote to me. Again, no need to be so defensive.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @Healix.5819 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Edit: and it's really weird, someone made a claim about POF selling only 500k, I counter that by saying gw2efficiency POF owners are half of that, and people get up in arms about the number of gw2efficiency "not being representative of the total" and not about the statement of POF selling only 500k. Seriously what's wrong with people around here?

    So you're saying Gw2Efficiency is a good representation because it currently has half the numbers that PoF sold in its first month?

    The complete opposite. That I find it unlikely the game sold 500k in total because I doubt gw2efficiency counts for half the POF accounts.
    Edit: and we were talking about total sales/accounts for POF, not how many it sold in the first month

  • @Healix.5819 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Edit: and it's really weird, someone made a claim about POF selling only 500k, I counter that by saying gw2efficiency POF owners are half of that, and people get up in arms about the number of gw2efficiency "not being representative of the total" and not about the statement of POF selling only 500k. Seriously what's wrong with people around here?

    So you're saying Gw2Efficiency is a good representation because it currently has half the numbers that PoF sold in its first month?

    do you guys really dont get it?

    it was claimed PoF sold 500k, in gw2efficiency alone are 250k, thats the half of it.

    like all are saying efficiency is only a small percantage of the playerbase, how can it be that there are 250k when PoF only was sold for about 500K?

  • Healix.5819Healix.5819 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Edit: and we were talking about total sales/accounts for POF, not how many it sold in the first month

    But you're the only one saying that. Here's the actual person you keep referencing:

    the source game again? it was some article about a month after pof launch, where they confirmed something like ½ mio sales in the 1st month

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Healix.5819 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Edit: and we were talking about total sales/accounts for POF, not how many it sold in the first month

    But you're the only one saying that.

    And I'm still waiting for a link for that article. However there were more claims made earlier:

    and that is industry standard. they still had over a mio players, that was ready for more. a number, that was magically halfed with the arrival pof.

    and

    AFAIK it was roughy 500k for pof

    and more, not gonna go further back, it's unhealthy

    Do you think HOT sold 1 million or that POF sold 500k? That's the question.

  • Healix.5819Healix.5819 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Do you think HOT sold 1 million or that POF sold 500k? That's the question.

    Both HoT and PoF sold around 500k at launch. You'll never find a source because these numbers were estimated by players based on the quarterly reports. You'll never know the total numbers, but PoF certainly sold more than 500k, likely more than double that the first year.

    For some actual data that most have never seen, I track the forums, so here's the number of accounts created here:

    3Q2017,25413 (forums launched)
    4Q2017,28357
    1Q2018,23714
    2Q2018,19601
    3Q2018,18763
    4Q2018,13736
    1Q2019,11143
    2Q2019,12842
    3Q2019,9362
    4Q2019,6675
    1Q2020,8496
    2Q2020,12533
    (there's only 197k accounts registered on the forums)
  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    No, I'm not the one with the problem. You're basing your claims on something like 3% of the entire game's population. I don't care what a third party site is tracking, given that you have to be registered there to track it. The comprehension problem here is thinking that that 3% is indicative of much of anything at all. You see, we have much more reliable metrics to track, tied directly to the game. I also wouldn't take the forums at face value, since only about 15% of a game's population uses them with anything like regularity. Comparatively, however, I'd take the forums over gw2efficiency, since even at the numbers I'm speculating on here, they're far more representative.

    If you're trying to say that your numbers are more accurate because gw2efficiency can track everyone that logs in, then ANet has some serious privacy issues upcoming. You're using your bubble trying to claim everyone else fits in it, and yet, I'll note, you couldn't answer the questions I posed. Why is that, do you suppose? Is it because, since I'm not registered, I don't fit into your bubble? I'll also point out that you end with the usual copouts, "trolling or reading comprehension problem". Neither address the issue, but they do make it easier for you to try to sweep it under the carpet, instead of addressing the fact that what's happening on your fansite may not be indicative of what's actually happening in game. One can try to draw some parallels, but trying to claim correlation to the rest of the game is magnitudes of fail. If you could use it to site several million players, maybe it's closer to representative, but at this percentage, it's why all the pollsters were shocked in 2016.

    Please reread the post you quoted. ALL of it next time not just the part @kharmin.7683 chose to nitpick.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343447/#Comment_1343447

    Let's go over it one more time.

    As for how "reasonable" 500k sales are: there are 251,852 gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT and 248,440 accounts that own POF
    In other words, you are saying that half of the owners of POF have a gw2efficiency account, that might be true but I find it highly unlikely. Further, if gw2efficiency was > such a high percentage of the population then you'd think the direction of the game would be very different

    I gave the number of gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT (251,852) and POF (248,440) to counter the argument that POF sold only 500k.

    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    Here I perform some primary school math
    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts out of the 251,852 that own HOT is 71.4%
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts out of the 248,440 that own POF is 72.2%

    Nowhere in that post did I make ANY claims over the total population of the game. I never said anything about what those numbers indicate about the total game either, those were added by you, because you picked @kharmin.7683 quote out of context. If you read the entire post (and know primary school math) you can see the entire picture.

    Edit: and it's really weird, someone made a claim about POF selling only 500k, I counter that by saying gw2efficiency POF owners are half of that, and people get up in arms about the number of gw2efficiency "not being representative of the total" and not about the statement of POF selling only 500k. Seriously what's wrong with people around here?

    ...and still, we're trying to base what's going on in the entirety of the game off of your fansite. Again, since I'm not registered over there, do I own either of the expansions, and have I finished either one, or the core game? You can search your fansite all day long trying to determine whether or not I do, but since I'm not registered over there, they have none of my numbers, or, more accurately, they should have none of my numbers. Am I unique? What people that have registered over there have done is irrelevant. How many people that haven't registered over there have done the same things? You're thinking I'm challenging your math or something, but I'm challenging your source material. When we're discussing the game, taking one subsection of players and saying "see" means nothing.

  • @Urphen.2857 said:

    @Healix.5819 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Edit: and it's really weird, someone made a claim about POF selling only 500k, I counter that by saying gw2efficiency POF owners are half of that, and people get up in arms about the number of gw2efficiency "not being representative of the total" and not about the statement of POF selling only 500k. Seriously what's wrong with people around here?

    So you're saying Gw2Efficiency is a good representation because it currently has half the numbers that PoF sold in its first month?

    do you guys really dont get it?

    it was claimed PoF sold 500k, in gw2efficiency alone are 250k, thats the half of it.

    like all are saying efficiency is only a small percantage of the playerbase, how can it be that there are 250k when PoF only was sold for about 500K?

    Because the total registered accounts, according to the information provided, only makes up about 3% of the total game sales. Since people like to do math, what percentage of 11 million is 300K? A small percentage, yes?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    ...and still, we're trying to base what's going on in the entirety of the game off of your fansite.

    That's something only YOU are doing actually...

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Because the total registered accounts, according to the information provided, only makes up about 3% of the total game sales. Since people like to do math, what percentage of 11 million is 300K? A small percentage, yes?

    Total game sales is 5 million, just before the game went F2P in August 2015
    https://www.ign.com/articles/2015/08/21/guild-wars-2-sales-figures-revealed

    11 million is the total players (do note: players not sales, likely includes free accounts) the game announced in September 2017
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-path-to-the-desert-in-numbers/

    Curiously they still advertise 11 million players:
    https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

    The real question is what percentage of HOT/POF sales are HOT/POF gw2efficiency users, the accounts that stopped playing are irrelevant.
    Someone claimed 1 million / 500k respectively, which prompted the posting of gw2efficiency data.
    Do you think HOT sold 1 million and POF 500k?

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    First of all "YOU" liked core, not "we".
    Second, core tyria is hands down one of the most boring experiences I had in all the mmorpgs I've played, you just run around chasing vistas, completing those stupid hearts, yeah it might be cool that gw2 doesn't have any "go kill 50 bulls and come back" quests, yet those freaking hearts are the same or sometimes worst fun wise.
    There is not even a single mob that can kill you there unless you just afk, even world bosses, the best world boss design you will see it on that black phantom if you start as human, but thats it, a pretty huge mob with 3 crosshairs and a few animations, luckluster, and the endgame are dungeons, which are so easy, and need a huge revamp for so long already, it's pointless.
    I myself for example started enjoying the pve in this game after reaching hot, the old one, not this crappy nerfed version we got now, not only it's so heavily nerfed you have mounts to even skip the whole maps today, and quitted the game after watching how easy pof was, same as core but with more lag, oh sorry i mean more flashy colors and animations.

    the fact, that they nerfed hot is proof, that it didnt do well. and it is not normal to buy expansions in a game, that you HATE.
    polarization is always bad, and hot has divided the community, where it should had done the opposite
    pof has many issues too, being easier than hot wont save it. but at least it has normal maps to play on.
    the kind of gameplay you want prolly wont be in a big mmo (at least not for long)
    big mmos need many players, and you wont get those without some easy bread&butter content

    What proof? See, you don't even undersand why it was nerfed and then you come up with things like that as a supposed argument for your "truths". It got nerfed because after the obvious initial rise of activity when everyone was sitting in hot maps to complete the content/achievements/collections/whatever they wanted AND the release of another expansion+LW episodes, people are divided between zones more than before. Less people in ONE zone, because there's CONSTANTLY more zones in the game equals harder time to gather people needed to complete the content, which wasn't the problem before for obvious reasons. It doesn't prove anything you claim it does and it's perfectly understandable. Stop trying to bend the facts to match your agenda.

    if you believe, that ANY company will throw resources at a project, that isnt necessary, then i have some prime real estate to sell you
    no, they saw the server stats, and did the things, they thought would help
    what OTHER reasons would there be for a nerf of this kind?

    How is this even negating what I said? Literally, walk me through your thought process where apparently what you said somehow denies what I said. Step after step.
    The nerf was needed, because there's less people in one map due to release of more content/maps in form of another expansion +many LS episodes over time. Where did I say it wasn't needed? What I said is that your take on this nerf is wrong because you want to make it fit your agenda and nothing in your answer contested what I said..

    if that was the reason for the nerfs, then they should had nerfed MANY other zones too, as new zones was added
    that didnt happen, because the outcry wasnt large enough to make them bother
    hot was the stinker, that started it all

    Which zones should they have nerfed?
    As many people already told you, the problem with HoT difficulty level "jump" is mainly about core being WAY too easy, which is why it never will need any nerfs. Are you purposefully avoiding this fact just so you can pretend you have a point or what is this exactly about?

    "started it all"? Started what exactly? And what followed that "HoT starter"?

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    No, I'm not the one with the problem. You're basing your claims on something like 3% of the entire game's population. I don't care what a third party site is tracking, given that you have to be registered there to track it. The comprehension problem here is thinking that that 3% is indicative of much of anything at all. You see, we have much more reliable metrics to track, tied directly to the game. I also wouldn't take the forums at face value, since only about 15% of a game's population uses them with anything like regularity. Comparatively, however, I'd take the forums over gw2efficiency, since even at the numbers I'm speculating on here, they're far more representative.

    If you're trying to say that your numbers are more accurate because gw2efficiency can track everyone that logs in, then ANet has some serious privacy issues upcoming. You're using your bubble trying to claim everyone else fits in it, and yet, I'll note, you couldn't answer the questions I posed. Why is that, do you suppose? Is it because, since I'm not registered, I don't fit into your bubble? I'll also point out that you end with the usual copouts, "trolling or reading comprehension problem". Neither address the issue, but they do make it easier for you to try to sweep it under the carpet, instead of addressing the fact that what's happening on your fansite may not be indicative of what's actually happening in game. One can try to draw some parallels, but trying to claim correlation to the rest of the game is magnitudes of fail. If you could use it to site several million players, maybe it's closer to representative, but at this percentage, it's why all the pollsters were shocked in 2016.

    Please reread the post you quoted. ALL of it next time not just the part @kharmin.7683 chose to nitpick.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343447/#Comment_1343447

    Let's go over it one more time.

    As for how "reasonable" 500k sales are: there are 251,852 gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT and 248,440 accounts that own POF
    In other words, you are saying that half of the owners of POF have a gw2efficiency account, that might be true but I find it highly unlikely. Further, if gw2efficiency was > such a high percentage of the population then you'd think the direction of the game would be very different

    I gave the number of gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT (251,852) and POF (248,440) to counter the argument that POF sold only 500k.

    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    Here I perform some primary school math
    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts out of the 251,852 that own HOT is 71.4%
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts out of the 248,440 that own POF is 72.2%

    Nowhere in that post did I make ANY claims over the total population of the game. I never said anything about what those numbers indicate about the total game either, those were added by you, because you picked @kharmin.7683 quote out of context. If you read the entire post (and know primary school math) you can see the entire picture.

    Edit: and it's really weird, someone made a claim about POF selling only 500k, I counter that by saying gw2efficiency POF owners are half of that, and people get up in arms about the number of gw2efficiency "not being representative of the total" and not about the statement of POF selling only 500k. Seriously what's wrong with people around here?

    ...and still, we're trying to base what's going on in the entirety of the game off of your fansite. Again, since I'm not registered over there, do I own either of the expansions, and have I finished either one, or the core game? You can search your fansite all day long trying to determine whether or not I do, but since I'm not registered over there, they have none of my numbers, or, more accurately, they should have none of my numbers. Am I unique? What people that have registered over there have done is irrelevant. How many people that haven't registered over there have done the same things? You're thinking I'm challenging your math or something, but I'm challenging your source material. When we're discussing the game, taking one subsection of players and saying "see" means nothing.

    To be honest that's not how statistics works. It doesn't really matter how small part of the population uses as long as it's representative.
    Now there are good reason why it isn't representative, but you"ll have to give these reasons, I'm not on it or its only 3% percent of the total population are not reasons why it is not.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315

    What would you consider good numbers for expansions and a core game. How much is an mmo allowed to lose in the coregame and how much in expensions.

  • @oceansofmars.6894 said:
    HoT doesn't seem harder than normal, you just can't stand on bad stuff. If your reaction time is bad then play a defensive class or build with defensive armor and runes. You can't go glass cannon with potato reaction time and complain.

    Too be fair, sometimes many overlapping cones and circles of bad stuff can leave precious little anywhere to stand within a two dodge radius.

    I do think the bulk of "HoT is too difficult" is really just poor onramping on the part of ArenaNet. After how easy core was, I really struggled when I first stepped into HoT. Then I threw out story order, played through PoF, came back to HoT, then did seasons 3 and 4 and did just fine. Some deaths here and there, but playing through PoF gave me space to learn how to play my characters as well as mounts that helped with navigating HoT zones.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Because the total registered accounts, according to the information provided, only makes up about 3% of the total game sales. Since people like to do math, what percentage of 11 million is 300K? A small percentage, yes?

    Total game sales is 5 million, just before the game went F2P in August 2015
    https://www.ign.com/articles/2015/08/21/guild-wars-2-sales-figures-revealed

    11 million is the total players (do note: players not sales, likely includes free accounts) the game announced in September 2017
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-path-to-the-desert-in-numbers/

    Curiously they still advertise 11 million players:
    https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

    The real question is what percentage of HOT/POF sales are HOT/POF gw2efficiency users, the accounts that stopped playing are irrelevant.
    Someone claimed 1 million / 500k respectively, which prompted the posting of gw2efficiency data.
    Do you think HOT sold 1 million and POF 500k?

    11 million definitely includes free players, that's not even relevant. What's relevant is the percentage of those 11 million that did or didn't buy the expansions. Now, reading the forums, one would think that most of those 11 million did, why else throw a mini fuss about "but new players are going to need mounts to keep them playing" being thrown around, this time, because of the launch on Steam?

    @yann.1946 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    No, I'm not the one with the problem. You're basing your claims on something like 3% of the entire game's population. I don't care what a third party site is tracking, given that you have to be registered there to track it. The comprehension problem here is thinking that that 3% is indicative of much of anything at all. You see, we have much more reliable metrics to track, tied directly to the game. I also wouldn't take the forums at face value, since only about 15% of a game's population uses them with anything like regularity. Comparatively, however, I'd take the forums over gw2efficiency, since even at the numbers I'm speculating on here, they're far more representative.

    If you're trying to say that your numbers are more accurate because gw2efficiency can track everyone that logs in, then ANet has some serious privacy issues upcoming. You're using your bubble trying to claim everyone else fits in it, and yet, I'll note, you couldn't answer the questions I posed. Why is that, do you suppose? Is it because, since I'm not registered, I don't fit into your bubble? I'll also point out that you end with the usual copouts, "trolling or reading comprehension problem". Neither address the issue, but they do make it easier for you to try to sweep it under the carpet, instead of addressing the fact that what's happening on your fansite may not be indicative of what's actually happening in game. One can try to draw some parallels, but trying to claim correlation to the rest of the game is magnitudes of fail. If you could use it to site several million players, maybe it's closer to representative, but at this percentage, it's why all the pollsters were shocked in 2016.

    Please reread the post you quoted. ALL of it next time not just the part @kharmin.7683 chose to nitpick.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343447/#Comment_1343447

    Let's go over it one more time.

    As for how "reasonable" 500k sales are: there are 251,852 gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT and 248,440 accounts that own POF
    In other words, you are saying that half of the owners of POF have a gw2efficiency account, that might be true but I find it highly unlikely. Further, if gw2efficiency was > such a high percentage of the population then you'd think the direction of the game would be very different

    I gave the number of gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT (251,852) and POF (248,440) to counter the argument that POF sold only 500k.

    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    Here I perform some primary school math
    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts out of the 251,852 that own HOT is 71.4%
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts out of the 248,440 that own POF is 72.2%

    Nowhere in that post did I make ANY claims over the total population of the game. I never said anything about what those numbers indicate about the total game either, those were added by you, because you picked @kharmin.7683 quote out of context. If you read the entire post (and know primary school math) you can see the entire picture.

    Edit: and it's really weird, someone made a claim about POF selling only 500k, I counter that by saying gw2efficiency POF owners are half of that, and people get up in arms about the number of gw2efficiency "not being representative of the total" and not about the statement of POF selling only 500k. Seriously what's wrong with people around here?

    ...and still, we're trying to base what's going on in the entirety of the game off of your fansite. Again, since I'm not registered over there, do I own either of the expansions, and have I finished either one, or the core game? You can search your fansite all day long trying to determine whether or not I do, but since I'm not registered over there, they have none of my numbers, or, more accurately, they should have none of my numbers. Am I unique? What people that have registered over there have done is irrelevant. How many people that haven't registered over there have done the same things? You're thinking I'm challenging your math or something, but I'm challenging your source material. When we're discussing the game, taking one subsection of players and saying "see" means nothing.

    To be honest that's not how statistics works. It doesn't really matter how small part of the population uses as long as it's representative.
    Now there are good reason why it isn't representative, but you"ll have to give these reasons, I'm not on it or its only 3% percent of the total population are not reasons why it is not.

    Yeah, I addressed this already. That's what was meant by "that's why pollsters were shocked in 2016". Since we can sit here and make up some handy statistics to suit a narrative any time we want, they're pointless. These are particularly pointless however, as they're based on a fansite's registered members. We're missing total sales, actual numbers, not "well, I think it's x". We need real numbers, then we can look at a third party website for "well, these numbers support my narrative, so we're going to claim these are factual". Without real numbers, we may as well say "well, the Steam charts say nobody is playing so the game is dead".

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @WorldofBay.8160 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    First of all "YOU" liked core, not "we".
    Second, core tyria is hands down one of the most boring experiences I had in all the mmorpgs I've played, you just run around chasing vistas, completing those stupid hearts, yeah it might be cool that gw2 doesn't have any "go kill 50 bulls and come back" quests, yet those freaking hearts are the same or sometimes worst fun wise.
    There is not even a single mob that can kill you there unless you just afk, even world bosses, the best world boss design you will see it on that black phantom if you start as human, but thats it, a pretty huge mob with 3 crosshairs and a few animations, luckluster, and the endgame are dungeons, which are so easy, and need a huge revamp for so long already, it's pointless.
    I myself for example started enjoying the pve in this game after reaching hot, the old one, not this crappy nerfed version we got now, not only it's so heavily nerfed you have mounts to even skip the whole maps today, and quitted the game after watching how easy pof was, same as core but with more lag, oh sorry i mean more flashy colors and animations.

    the fact, that they nerfed hot is proof, that it didnt do well. and it is not normal to buy expansions in a game, that you HATE.

    the fact that the shatterer got buffed is proof that core is too easy.
    see i can use that argument as well.

    its a hardcore boss, that most casuals would never touch anyway. they can give him 100 mio HP, and make him invincible for all i care

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    when a player choses to use the same build through the whole core game, its pretty safe to say, that they LOVE that build.
    even worse, it is the build, that they KNOW how to play. changing the rules so late in the game is sheer stupidity, and its going to
    kitten off most players. they chose that role for a good reason. and if it is wrong, then it has to be so from the start

    First of all, that last line was not in my original quote, so I presume it was meant to be the first line of your argument (corrected above). You may have made a minor mistake when assembling your post, so that one of your sentences got added to the end of your quote of my post. Regardless...

    To address your argument darling, I think it is fair to say that most players don't choose a role when they play the game. They put together some skills that they like, and then play through most of the game with that build. Since the core game barely challenges anyone, it is quite possible for that build to be a really REALLY bad build. Even if it is a build they "know how to play" and "love", it might simply be terrible. So when such a player then tries HoT, they run into a brick wall.

    Before the release of HoT, these forums were full of people asking for better and more challenging combat. They weren't wrong, the core combat is pretty shallow and boring to be honest, mostly due to lack of interesting mechanics. A lot of those concerns were addressed in HoT and further refined in PoF and Living Story. Breakbars became a thing, bosses received phases, enemies received attacks and abilities that heavily punish players when they hit. Basically a huge overhaul of GW2's combat system.

    I think this change was badly needed to keep players interested, but it does mark a sudden change in difficulty. Especially players who didn't experience Living Story season 1 and 2 will be ill prepared for HoT throws at them. Plus HoT also seems more designed with groups of players in mind, rather than a solo experience. The tutorials of the game weren't updated to reflect these changes either, making HoT into this brick wall of difficulty for lots of players. It's understandable.

    "putting some skills together" is acually how you make a character in this game, no? and dont get me started on the breakbar.
    yep, they listened to the content locusts, and they have been chasing dogs tail ever since.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2020

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    out of 12 mio. and casuals would never use it either. it is echo chambering and fart sniffing par excellence.

    It takes 10 seconds to upload an API key; you don't even need to create an account.

    People recommend gw2efficiency all the time to casual players asking "How do I make money??" because it is by far the easiest way for people who DON'T play the market, and DON'T farm, and maybe don't even craft at all to find hidden valuables just sitting uselessly in their bank and material storage.

    It's very helpful for a lot of fun, low-effort stuff like birthday presents or starting a cat collection. (Try it out: go to gw2efficiency and collect some cats for your home instance.)

    You're absolutely married to the idea that "casual players" are know-nothing louts who can barely figure out how to play a dang video game — because that puts you in the position of being able to speak for the faceless masses who would never be caught dead pressing the dodge button at the right time or experimenting with their character abilities or using a website — when the reality is that there isn't a hard-line division between these categories and a lot of the player base is doing both "casual" stuff and "hardcore" stuff at the same time.

    i am still in top 10% of APS. so im prolly better, than most players here. so much for "barely knowing how to play a game". yep, the line can be blurry, but hot went far beyond it.
    and why would i want cats in my home instance? i am never there anyway.
    PS "all the time" still ended up 300k users. thats 2,5 % of the official number of players. pretty close to the industry standard for raiders. yep.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    I wasn't nitpicking so much as not comprehending how you come to saying this:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    It's the "total" HOT and POF accounts that I was questioning. It seems like you are advocating "total" to mean each and every GW2 account whether it is logged in GW2Efficiency or not.

    You couldn't comprehend how 179,887 is 71.4% of 251,852?
    Here I'll show you how to figure it out:
    179887 is X
    251852 is 100
    So with this we got: X = 179887 * 100 / 251852, if you use a common calculator, you'll get the magic 71.425678 or 71.4%
    I hope I made it clear and you now comprehend it. It's not nuclear physics.

    Other than math, you'd know what was meant if you took the time to read the previous part of the post which was rather clear what I was referring to:

    As for how "reasonable" 500k sales are: there are 251,852 gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT and 248,440 accounts that own POF
    In other words, you are saying that half of the owners of POF have a gw2efficiency account, that might be true but I find it highly unlikely. Further, if gw2efficiency was such a high percentage of the population then you'd think the direction of the game would be very different

    Your nitpicking not only was false, not only did it attribute false impressions on my post but at the same time confused so many other posters as well. It all took a bit of very simple math to figure out the numbers,

    if they ever make an expansion , that only get 300k sales, then i doubt, that they will make more.
    and 200k players is pathetic, how on earth can you consider that a success ? the core game sold over 5 mio times.
    going from 5 mio to 200k customers is NOT a story to brag about. and it looks like they FIRED the boss for that reason too

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    going from 5 mio to 200k customers is NOT a story to brag about.

    So you believe that only the 250k (not 200k) gw2efficiency players bought POF and nobody else and gw2efficiency is the entire playerbase. Good to know what you truly believe.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    going from 5 mio to 200k customers is NOT a story to brag about.

    So you believe that only the 250k (not 200k) gw2efficiency players bought POF and nobody else and gw2efficiency is the entire playerbase. Good to know what you truly believe.

    wow. how on earth can you come to THAT conclusion? please take me through the process, i am VERY curious
    i have been saying THE WHOLE TIME, that gw2efficiency isnt representative of the whole playerbase
    but, IF THEY WERE, then your OWN NUMBERS doesnt help your side at all
    200k are peanuts in the mmo business, they really want millions

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    going from 5 mio to 200k customers is NOT a story to brag about.

    So you believe that only the 250k (not 200k) gw2efficiency players bought POF and nobody else and gw2efficiency is the entire playerbase. Good to know what you truly believe.

    wow. how on earth can you come to THAT conclusion? please take me through the process, i am VERY curious
    i have been saying THE WHOLE TIME, that gw2efficiency isnt representative of the whole playerbase
    but, IF THEY WERE, then your OWN NUMBERS doesnt help your side at all
    200k are peanuts in the mmo business, they really want millions

    You said (it's in the part I quoted by the way):

    going from 5 mio to 200k customers is NOT a story to brag about

    You are saying gw2efficiency isn't representative of the whole playerbase and at the same time you say they went to 200k customers, or earlier that they have 500k customers. Make up your mind already.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:
    @battledrone.8315

    What would you consider good numbers for expansions and a core game. How much is an mmo allowed to lose in the coregame and how much in expensions.

    a really good mmo could prolly conquer the multiverse in a decade or two. prey, that it never gets made. i saw how wow exploded, and became a cultural phenomenon.
    if blizzard had stuck to the formula, they could had become so much bigger. but they didnt, and the rest is history.
    usually, they are hyping the big mmos to get good sales, and that hype ALWAYS backfires.
    if they have more than 20 % of players at level cap, then it is better than industry standard
    and a good expansion can actually GROW a game, BC and WoTLK did that

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    going from 5 mio to 200k customers is NOT a story to brag about.

    So you believe that only the 250k (not 200k) gw2efficiency players bought POF and nobody else and gw2efficiency is the entire playerbase. Good to know what you truly believe.

    wow. how on earth can you come to THAT conclusion? please take me through the process, i am VERY curious
    i have been saying THE WHOLE TIME, that gw2efficiency isnt representative of the whole playerbase
    but, IF THEY WERE, then your OWN NUMBERS doesnt help your side at all
    200k are peanuts in the mmo business, they really want millions

    You said (it's in the part I quoted by the way):

    going from 5 mio to 200k customers is NOT a story to brag about

    You are saying gw2efficiency isn't representative of the whole playerbase and at the same time you say they went to 200k customers, or earlier that they have 500k customers. Make up your mind already.

    they sold 500k, and 200k actually made it through the expansion. is that really so hard to understand?
    my point is, that they lost over ½ of the remaining players in the process
    players, that have made it so far, are prolly very passionate about the game too
    when over ½ of the customers walk out in anger, you can bet, that there is gonna be some fallout

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    they sold 500k, and 200k actually made it through the expansion. is that really so hard to understand?

    Let me ask you then. Is 50% of a population representative or not? Because 250k out of 500k is 50%. For me a 50% of a population is VERY representative, but I'm curious to see what number you believe is "representative".

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    they sold 500k, and 200k actually made it through the expansion. is that really so hard to understand?

    Let me ask you then. Is 50% of a population representative or not? Because 250k out of 500k is 50%. For me a 50% of a population is VERY representative, but I'm curious to see what number you believe is "representative".

    50 % sounds okay to me. you have provided 300k of them, now you only need roughly 5 mio more. have fun with that.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    50 % sounds okay to me.

    You are contradicting yourself here. We know there are 250k POF owners on gw2efficiency, you say POF sold 500k. That means gw2efficiency POF owners is 50% of the POF population. And then you say gw2efficiency isn't representative? You also said that casuals don't make accounts on gw2efficiency, this means casuals are 50% of POF owners? Curious

  • @battledrone.8315 said:
    "putting some skills together" is acually how you make a character in this game, no?

    I think you may have skipped over what I was saying. The stuff that comes after that sentence.

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    and dont get me started on the breakbar.
    yep, they listened to the content locusts, and they have been chasing dogs tail ever since.

    And yet the game's combat needed an overhaul. Whether the end result is the best they could have come up with is open to discussion. But I think anything is better than what GW2 used to be. And in that respect, I'm fine with the breakbar and other changes that were made. Changes HAD to be made, because GW2's combat was boring.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Because the total registered accounts, according to the information provided, only makes up about 3% of the total game sales. Since people like to do math, what percentage of 11 million is 300K? A small percentage, yes?

    Total game sales is 5 million, just before the game went F2P in August 2015
    https://www.ign.com/articles/2015/08/21/guild-wars-2-sales-figures-revealed

    11 million is the total players (do note: players not sales, likely includes free accounts) the game announced in September 2017
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-path-to-the-desert-in-numbers/

    Curiously they still advertise 11 million players:
    https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

    The real question is what percentage of HOT/POF sales are HOT/POF gw2efficiency users, the accounts that stopped playing are irrelevant.
    Someone claimed 1 million / 500k respectively, which prompted the posting of gw2efficiency data.
    Do you think HOT sold 1 million and POF 500k?

    11 million definitely includes free players, that's not even relevant. What's relevant is the percentage of those 11 million that did or didn't buy the expansions. Now, reading the forums, one would think that most of those 11 million did, why else throw a mini fuss about "but new players are going to need mounts to keep them playing" being thrown around, this time, because of the launch on Steam?

    @yann.1946 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    No, I'm not the one with the problem. You're basing your claims on something like 3% of the entire game's population. I don't care what a third party site is tracking, given that you have to be registered there to track it. The comprehension problem here is thinking that that 3% is indicative of much of anything at all. You see, we have much more reliable metrics to track, tied directly to the game. I also wouldn't take the forums at face value, since only about 15% of a game's population uses them with anything like regularity. Comparatively, however, I'd take the forums over gw2efficiency, since even at the numbers I'm speculating on here, they're far more representative.

    If you're trying to say that your numbers are more accurate because gw2efficiency can track everyone that logs in, then ANet has some serious privacy issues upcoming. You're using your bubble trying to claim everyone else fits in it, and yet, I'll note, you couldn't answer the questions I posed. Why is that, do you suppose? Is it because, since I'm not registered, I don't fit into your bubble? I'll also point out that you end with the usual copouts, "trolling or reading comprehension problem". Neither address the issue, but they do make it easier for you to try to sweep it under the carpet, instead of addressing the fact that what's happening on your fansite may not be indicative of what's actually happening in game. One can try to draw some parallels, but trying to claim correlation to the rest of the game is magnitudes of fail. If you could use it to site several million players, maybe it's closer to representative, but at this percentage, it's why all the pollsters were shocked in 2016.

    Please reread the post you quoted. ALL of it next time not just the part @kharmin.7683 chose to nitpick.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343447/#Comment_1343447

    Let's go over it one more time.

    As for how "reasonable" 500k sales are: there are 251,852 gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT and 248,440 accounts that own POF
    In other words, you are saying that half of the owners of POF have a gw2efficiency account, that might be true but I find it highly unlikely. Further, if gw2efficiency was > such a high percentage of the population then you'd think the direction of the game would be very different

    I gave the number of gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT (251,852) and POF (248,440) to counter the argument that POF sold only 500k.

    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    Here I perform some primary school math
    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts out of the 251,852 that own HOT is 71.4%
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts out of the 248,440 that own POF is 72.2%

    Nowhere in that post did I make ANY claims over the total population of the game. I never said anything about what those numbers indicate about the total game either, those were added by you, because you picked @kharmin.7683 quote out of context. If you read the entire post (and know primary school math) you can see the entire picture.

    Edit: and it's really weird, someone made a claim about POF selling only 500k, I counter that by saying gw2efficiency POF owners are half of that, and people get up in arms about the number of gw2efficiency "not being representative of the total" and not about the statement of POF selling only 500k. Seriously what's wrong with people around here?

    ...and still, we're trying to base what's going on in the entirety of the game off of your fansite. Again, since I'm not registered over there, do I own either of the expansions, and have I finished either one, or the core game? You can search your fansite all day long trying to determine whether or not I do, but since I'm not registered over there, they have none of my numbers, or, more accurately, they should have none of my numbers. Am I unique? What people that have registered over there have done is irrelevant. How many people that haven't registered over there have done the same things? You're thinking I'm challenging your math or something, but I'm challenging your source material. When we're discussing the game, taking one subsection of players and saying "see" means nothing.

    To be honest that's not how statistics works. It doesn't really matter how small part of the population uses as long as it's representative.
    Now there are good reason why it isn't representative, but you"ll have to give these reasons, I'm not on it or its only 3% percent of the total population are not reasons why it is not.

    Yeah, I addressed this already. That's what was meant by "that's why pollsters were shocked in 2016". Since we can sit here and make up some handy statistics to suit a narrative any time we want, they're pointless.

    Tbh, these polls and statistics aren't pointless. Their just needs some though thought put into what these actually mean.

    These are particularly pointless however, as they're based on a fansite's registered members. We're missing total sales, actual numbers, not "well, I think it's x".

    OK, but what makes it not representative?
    The fact that it's self-reported?
    Or what else?

    Don't confuse limited data, with useless data.

    We need real numbers, then we can look at a third party website for "well, these numbers support my narrative, so we're going to claim these are factual". Without real numbers, we may as well say "well, the Steam charts say nobody is playing so the game is dead".

    These things are not equivalent though.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @WorldofBay.8160 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    First of all "YOU" liked core, not "we".
    Second, core tyria is hands down one of the most boring experiences I had in all the mmorpgs I've played, you just run around chasing vistas, completing those stupid hearts, yeah it might be cool that gw2 doesn't have any "go kill 50 bulls and come back" quests, yet those freaking hearts are the same or sometimes worst fun wise.
    There is not even a single mob that can kill you there unless you just afk, even world bosses, the best world boss design you will see it on that black phantom if you start as human, but thats it, a pretty huge mob with 3 crosshairs and a few animations, luckluster, and the endgame are dungeons, which are so easy, and need a huge revamp for so long already, it's pointless.
    I myself for example started enjoying the pve in this game after reaching hot, the old one, not this crappy nerfed version we got now, not only it's so heavily nerfed you have mounts to even skip the whole maps today, and quitted the game after watching how easy pof was, same as core but with more lag, oh sorry i mean more flashy colors and animations.

    the fact, that they nerfed hot is proof, that it didnt do well. and it is not normal to buy expansions in a game, that you HATE.

    the fact that the shatterer got buffed is proof that core is too easy.
    see i can use that argument as well.

    its a hardcore boss, that most casuals would never touch anyway. they can give him 100 mio HP, and make him invincible for all i care

    No, it's not, what kind of weird made up claim is this? It's a world boss in level 40-50 zone, lol.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    when a player choses to use the same build through the whole core game, its pretty safe to say, that they LOVE that build.
    even worse, it is the build, that they KNOW how to play. changing the rules so late in the game is sheer stupidity, and its going to
    kitten off most players. they chose that role for a good reason. and if it is wrong, then it has to be so from the start

    First of all, that last line was not in my original quote, so I presume it was meant to be the first line of your argument (corrected above). You may have made a minor mistake when assembling your post, so that one of your sentences got added to the end of your quote of my post. Regardless...

    To address your argument darling, I think it is fair to say that most players don't choose a role when they play the game. They put together some skills that they like, and then play through most of the game with that build. Since the core game barely challenges anyone, it is quite possible for that build to be a really REALLY bad build. Even if it is a build they "know how to play" and "love", it might simply be terrible. So when such a player then tries HoT, they run into a brick wall.

    Before the release of HoT, these forums were full of people asking for better and more challenging combat. They weren't wrong, the core combat is pretty shallow and boring to be honest, mostly due to lack of interesting mechanics. A lot of those concerns were addressed in HoT and further refined in PoF and Living Story. Breakbars became a thing, bosses received phases, enemies received attacks and abilities that heavily punish players when they hit. Basically a huge overhaul of GW2's combat system.

    I think this change was badly needed to keep players interested, but it does mark a sudden change in difficulty. Especially players who didn't experience Living Story season 1 and 2 will be ill prepared for HoT throws at them. Plus HoT also seems more designed with groups of players in mind, rather than a solo experience. The tutorials of the game weren't updated to reflect these changes either, making HoT into this brick wall of difficulty for lots of players. It's understandable.

    "putting some skills together" is acually how you make a character in this game, no? and dont get me started on the breakbar.
    yep, they listened to the content locusts, and they have been chasing dogs tail ever since.

    They listened to people that actually want to understand game's meechanics, not some "content locust" like you keep calling it. If you want to smile at dying mobs after you hold 1 key then stay in starting zones or just core maps in general and continue being happy.

    "putting some skills together" is how you make a character in this game, sure -which doesn't mean that any combination of traits and skills is a coherent one, not sure what you're trying to argue here. All you're showing is your lack of understanding of the basics of the game. Maybe if you've put in that direction HALF of the effort you're showing on the forum to complain, you wouldn't actually have a reason to complain.
    Now that I think about it... maybe that's your issue? Maybe you don't want solutions, you just want to keep complaining instead?

    Also just a reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    out of 12 mio. and casuals would never use it either. it is echo chambering and fart sniffing par excellence.

    It takes 10 seconds to upload an API key; you don't even need to create an account.

    People recommend gw2efficiency all the time to casual players asking "How do I make money??" because it is by far the easiest way for people who DON'T play the market, and DON'T farm, and maybe don't even craft at all to find hidden valuables just sitting uselessly in their bank and material storage.

    It's very helpful for a lot of fun, low-effort stuff like birthday presents or starting a cat collection. (Try it out: go to gw2efficiency and collect some cats for your home instance.)

    You're absolutely married to the idea that "casual players" are know-nothing louts who can barely figure out how to play a dang video game — because that puts you in the position of being able to speak for the faceless masses who would never be caught dead pressing the dodge button at the right time or experimenting with their character abilities or using a website — when the reality is that there isn't a hard-line division between these categories and a lot of the player base is doing both "casual" stuff and "hardcore" stuff at the same time.

    i am still in top 10% of APS. so im prolly better, than most players here. so much for "barely knowing how to play a game". yep, the line can be blurry, but hot went far beyond it.
    and why would i want cats in my home instance? i am never there anyway.
    PS "all the time" still ended up 300k users. thats 2,5 % of the official number of players. pretty close to the industry standard for raiders. yep.

    Grinding APs is not a way to measure someone's game knowledge or ability to play the game.
    "I have more AP so I'm better" is quite a disconnected conclusion to draw.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Grinding APs is not a way to measure someone's game knowledge or ability to play the game.
    "I have more AP so I'm better" is quite a disconnected conclusion to draw.

    He means based on the "leaderboard" thing we looked at earlier, which includes all the free accounts as well as people who played the game for like a month in 2012 and then left before half of the modern achievement structure was even in place.

  • @yann.1946 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    Because the total registered accounts, according to the information provided, only makes up about 3% of the total game sales. Since people like to do math, what percentage of 11 million is 300K? A small percentage, yes?

    Total game sales is 5 million, just before the game went F2P in August 2015
    https://www.ign.com/articles/2015/08/21/guild-wars-2-sales-figures-revealed

    11 million is the total players (do note: players not sales, likely includes free accounts) the game announced in September 2017
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-path-to-the-desert-in-numbers/

    Curiously they still advertise 11 million players:
    https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

    The real question is what percentage of HOT/POF sales are HOT/POF gw2efficiency users, the accounts that stopped playing are irrelevant.
    Someone claimed 1 million / 500k respectively, which prompted the posting of gw2efficiency data.
    Do you think HOT sold 1 million and POF 500k?

    11 million definitely includes free players, that's not even relevant. What's relevant is the percentage of those 11 million that did or didn't buy the expansions. Now, reading the forums, one would think that most of those 11 million did, why else throw a mini fuss about "but new players are going to need mounts to keep them playing" being thrown around, this time, because of the launch on Steam?

    @yann.1946 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:
    No, I'm not the one with the problem. You're basing your claims on something like 3% of the entire game's population. I don't care what a third party site is tracking, given that you have to be registered there to track it. The comprehension problem here is thinking that that 3% is indicative of much of anything at all. You see, we have much more reliable metrics to track, tied directly to the game. I also wouldn't take the forums at face value, since only about 15% of a game's population uses them with anything like regularity. Comparatively, however, I'd take the forums over gw2efficiency, since even at the numbers I'm speculating on here, they're far more representative.

    If you're trying to say that your numbers are more accurate because gw2efficiency can track everyone that logs in, then ANet has some serious privacy issues upcoming. You're using your bubble trying to claim everyone else fits in it, and yet, I'll note, you couldn't answer the questions I posed. Why is that, do you suppose? Is it because, since I'm not registered, I don't fit into your bubble? I'll also point out that you end with the usual copouts, "trolling or reading comprehension problem". Neither address the issue, but they do make it easier for you to try to sweep it under the carpet, instead of addressing the fact that what's happening on your fansite may not be indicative of what's actually happening in game. One can try to draw some parallels, but trying to claim correlation to the rest of the game is magnitudes of fail. If you could use it to site several million players, maybe it's closer to representative, but at this percentage, it's why all the pollsters were shocked in 2016.

    Please reread the post you quoted. ALL of it next time not just the part @kharmin.7683 chose to nitpick.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343447/#Comment_1343447

    Let's go over it one more time.

    As for how "reasonable" 500k sales are: there are 251,852 gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT and 248,440 accounts that own POF
    In other words, you are saying that half of the owners of POF have a gw2efficiency account, that might be true but I find it highly unlikely. Further, if gw2efficiency was > such a high percentage of the population then you'd think the direction of the game would be very different

    I gave the number of gw2efficiency accounts that own HOT (251,852) and POF (248,440) to counter the argument that POF sold only 500k.

    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts completed HOT, that's 71.4% of total HOT accounts
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts completed POF, that's 72.2% of total POF accounts

    Here I perform some primary school math
    179,887 gw2efficiency accounts out of the 251,852 that own HOT is 71.4%
    179,268 gw2efficiency accounts out of the 248,440 that own POF is 72.2%

    Nowhere in that post did I make ANY claims over the total population of the game. I never said anything about what those numbers indicate about the total game either, those were added by you, because you picked @kharmin.7683 quote out of context. If you read the entire post (and know primary school math) you can see the entire picture.

    Edit: and it's really weird, someone made a claim about POF selling only 500k, I counter that by saying gw2efficiency POF owners are half of that, and people get up in arms about the number of gw2efficiency "not being representative of the total" and not about the statement of POF selling only 500k. Seriously what's wrong with people around here?

    ...and still, we're trying to base what's going on in the entirety of the game off of your fansite. Again, since I'm not registered over there, do I own either of the expansions, and have I finished either one, or the core game? You can search your fansite all day long trying to determine whether or not I do, but since I'm not registered over there, they have none of my numbers, or, more accurately, they should have none of my numbers. Am I unique? What people that have registered over there have done is irrelevant. How many people that haven't registered over there have done the same things? You're thinking I'm challenging your math or something, but I'm challenging your source material. When we're discussing the game, taking one subsection of players and saying "see" means nothing.

    To be honest that's not how statistics works. It doesn't really matter how small part of the population uses as long as it's representative.
    Now there are good reason why it isn't representative, but you"ll have to give these reasons, I'm not on it or its only 3% percent of the total population are not reasons why it is not.

    Yeah, I addressed this already. That's what was meant by "that's why pollsters were shocked in 2016". Since we can sit here and make up some handy statistics to suit a narrative any time we want, they're pointless.

    Tbh, these polls and statistics aren't pointless. Their just needs some though thought put into what these actually mean.

    These are particularly pointless however, as they're based on a fansite's registered members. We're missing total sales, actual numbers, not "well, I think it's x".

    OK, but what makes it not representative?
    The fact that it's self-reported?
    Or what else?

    Don't confuse limited data, with useless data.

    We need real numbers, then we can look at a third party website for "well, these numbers support my narrative, so we're going to claim these are factual". Without real numbers, we may as well say "well, the Steam charts say nobody is playing so the game is dead".

    These things are not equivalent though.

    Actually, they're exactly the same: data points used to uphold a narrative from a 3rd party website. It doesn't get much more equivalent than that.

  • @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    "putting some skills together" is acually how you make a character in this game, no?

    I think you may have skipped over what I was saying. The stuff that comes after that sentence.

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    and dont get me started on the breakbar.
    yep, they listened to the content locusts, and they have been chasing dogs tail ever since.

    And yet the game's combat needed an overhaul. Whether the end result is the best they could have come up with is open to discussion. But I think anything is better than what GW2 used to be. And in that respect, I'm fine with the breakbar and other changes that were made. Changes HAD to be made, because GW2's combat was boring.

    Problem is he loved that boring combat i am gonna be honest it feels more like he just dont want to be wrong but cant accept that core game had issue to keep. Yes hot is meant to keep you playing to learn rather than rush through in 2 houts and then move to next game

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    50 % sounds okay to me.

    You are contradicting yourself here. We know there are 250k POF owners on gw2efficiency, you say POF sold 500k. That means gw2efficiency POF owners is 50% of the POF population. And then you say gw2efficiency isn't representative? You also said that casuals don't make accounts on gw2efficiency, this means casuals are 50% of POF owners? Curious

    i said pof sold 500k in the first MONTH. dont know how many they sold after that. and if you really want to use your own numbers, you can only realte them to
    that site specifically, NOT the entire game. there is NO WAY a game with only 300k players can have such a big dev team.
    core did better than pretty much all other mmos, since they still had over mio players left to pay for the expansion
    and that expansion failed horribly in keeping the remaining players

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    "putting some skills together" is acually how you make a character in this game, no?

    I think you may have skipped over what I was saying. The stuff that comes after that sentence.

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    and dont get me started on the breakbar.
    yep, they listened to the content locusts, and they have been chasing dogs tail ever since.

    And yet the game's combat needed an overhaul. Whether the end result is the best they could have come up with is open to discussion. But I think anything is better than what GW2 used to be. And in that respect, I'm fine with the breakbar and other changes that were made. Changes HAD to be made, because GW2's combat was boring.

    Problem is he loved that boring combat i am gonna be honest it feels more like he just dont want to be wrong but cant accept that core game had issue to keep. Yes hot is meant to keep you playing to learn rather than rush through in 2 houts and then move to next game

    thats rich, considering that this expansion cost them so many players and goodwill. and i did learn something from hot. i learned, that this isnt the game for me anymore.
    and i wasnt the only one to come to that conclusion. im gonna bet, that you cant buy cantha for gems. and they wont make any numbers public either

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    out of 12 mio. and casuals would never use it either. it is echo chambering and fart sniffing par excellence.

    It takes 10 seconds to upload an API key; you don't even need to create an account.

    People recommend gw2efficiency all the time to casual players asking "How do I make money??" because it is by far the easiest way for people who DON'T play the market, and DON'T farm, and maybe don't even craft at all to find hidden valuables just sitting uselessly in their bank and material storage.

    It's very helpful for a lot of fun, low-effort stuff like birthday presents or starting a cat collection. (Try it out: go to gw2efficiency and collect some cats for your home instance.)

    You're absolutely married to the idea that "casual players" are know-nothing louts who can barely figure out how to play a dang video game — because that puts you in the position of being able to speak for the faceless masses who would never be caught dead pressing the dodge button at the right time or experimenting with their character abilities or using a website — when the reality is that there isn't a hard-line division between these categories and a lot of the player base is doing both "casual" stuff and "hardcore" stuff at the same time.

    i am still in top 10% of APS. so im prolly better, than most players here. so much for "barely knowing how to play a game". yep, the line can be blurry, but hot went far beyond it.
    and why would i want cats in my home instance? i am never there anyway.
    PS "all the time" still ended up 300k users. thats 2,5 % of the official number of players. pretty close to the industry standard for raiders. yep.

    Grinding APs is not a way to measure someone's game knowledge or ability to play the game.
    "I have more AP so I'm better" is quite a disconnected conclusion to draw.

    isnt that the normal way to measure success in an mmo? playing the content? im not claiming the title or anything, but i have still played more than
    most other players. if PLAYING THE GAME isnt enough, then what is?

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @WorldofBay.8160 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    First of all "YOU" liked core, not "we".
    Second, core tyria is hands down one of the most boring experiences I had in all the mmorpgs I've played, you just run around chasing vistas, completing those stupid hearts, yeah it might be cool that gw2 doesn't have any "go kill 50 bulls and come back" quests, yet those freaking hearts are the same or sometimes worst fun wise.
    There is not even a single mob that can kill you there unless you just afk, even world bosses, the best world boss design you will see it on that black phantom if you start as human, but thats it, a pretty huge mob with 3 crosshairs and a few animations, luckluster, and the endgame are dungeons, which are so easy, and need a huge revamp for so long already, it's pointless.
    I myself for example started enjoying the pve in this game after reaching hot, the old one, not this crappy nerfed version we got now, not only it's so heavily nerfed you have mounts to even skip the whole maps today, and quitted the game after watching how easy pof was, same as core but with more lag, oh sorry i mean more flashy colors and animations.

    the fact, that they nerfed hot is proof, that it didnt do well. and it is not normal to buy expansions in a game, that you HATE.

    the fact that the shatterer got buffed is proof that core is too easy.
    see i can use that argument as well.

    its a hardcore boss, that most casuals would never touch anyway. they can give him 100 mio HP, and make him invincible for all i care

    No, it's not, what kind of weird made up claim is this? It's a world boss in level 40-50 zone, lol.

    yep, "world boss". maybe the AP tab can show how many players have taken it down. if i was ever near it, i prolly got killed and switched toons
    maybe i got lucky and switched BEFORE it killed me

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    i said pof sold 500k in the first MONTH.

    In 8 days (the first month) POF sold 500k then? Since you haven't posted a link yet it's impossible to know the exact time frame, but the first month of POF was September 2017 and lasted exactly 8 days (launched September 22). I wouldn't call 500k sales in just 8 days so bad though. I'll wait for your link for verification what that "first month" meant, once you post it.

    core did better than pretty much all other mmos

    It did well because it sold 3 million in the first 4 months. Then it sold 2 more million in the next 31 months, that's about 64k sales per month, a massive reduction compared to how much POF sold (or HOT), how you call 64k sales/month better than all other mmos is anyone's guess.

    since they still had over mio players left to pay for the expansion

    Still need a source for this.

    and that expansion failed horribly in keeping the remaining players

    The core game failed to keep 90% of the players and you call it better than all other mmos. The expansion failed to keep a couple thousand players and you say it failed horribly. Weird priorities.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    when a player choses to use the same build through the whole core game, its pretty safe to say, that they LOVE that build.
    even worse, it is the build, that they KNOW how to play. changing the rules so late in the game is sheer stupidity, and its going to
    kitten off most players. they chose that role for a good reason. and if it is wrong, then it has to be so from the start

    First of all, that last line was not in my original quote, so I presume it was meant to be the first line of your argument (corrected above). You may have made a minor mistake when assembling your post, so that one of your sentences got added to the end of your quote of my post. Regardless...

    To address your argument darling, I think it is fair to say that most players don't choose a role when they play the game. They put together some skills that they like, and then play through most of the game with that build. Since the core game barely challenges anyone, it is quite possible for that build to be a really REALLY bad build. Even if it is a build they "know how to play" and "love", it might simply be terrible. So when such a player then tries HoT, they run into a brick wall.

    Before the release of HoT, these forums were full of people asking for better and more challenging combat. They weren't wrong, the core combat is pretty shallow and boring to be honest, mostly due to lack of interesting mechanics. A lot of those concerns were addressed in HoT and further refined in PoF and Living Story. Breakbars became a thing, bosses received phases, enemies received attacks and abilities that heavily punish players when they hit. Basically a huge overhaul of GW2's combat system.

    I think this change was badly needed to keep players interested, but it does mark a sudden change in difficulty. Especially players who didn't experience Living Story season 1 and 2 will be ill prepared for HoT throws at them. Plus HoT also seems more designed with groups of players in mind, rather than a solo experience. The tutorials of the game weren't updated to reflect these changes either, making HoT into this brick wall of difficulty for lots of players. It's understandable.

    "putting some skills together" is acually how you make a character in this game, no? and dont get me started on the breakbar.
    yep, they listened to the content locusts, and they have been chasing dogs tail ever since.

    They listened to people that actually want to understand game's meechanics, not some "content locust" like you keep calling it. If you want to smile at dying mobs after you hold 1 key then stay in starting zones or just core maps in general and continue being happy.

    "putting some skills together" is how you make a character in this game, sure -which doesn't mean that any combination of traits and skills is a coherent one, not sure what you're trying to argue here. All you're showing is your lack of understanding of the basics of the game. Maybe if you've put in that direction HALF of the effort you're showing on the forum to complain, you wouldn't actually have a reason to complain.
    Now that I think about it... maybe that's your issue? Maybe you don't want solutions, you just want to keep complaining instead?

    Also just a reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

    if they can get to end game content in a few days, then they ARE content locusts, no dev team could ever keep up with them
    they literally devoured YEARS of work in a few days, and then they start complaining
    listening to their demands is a sure way to make it into another niche mmo

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    i said pof sold 500k in the first MONTH.

    In 8 days (the first month) POF sold 500k then? Since you haven't posted a link yet it's impossible to know the exact time frame, but the first month of POF was September 2017 and lasted exactly 8 days (launched September 22). I wouldn't call 500k sales in just 8 days so bad though. I'll wait for your link for verification what that "first month" meant, once you post it.

    core did better than pretty much all other mmos

    It did well because it sold 3 million in the first 4 months. Then it sold 2 more million in the next 31 months, that's about 64k sales per month, a massive reduction compared to how much POF sold (or HOT), how you call 64k sales/month better than all other mmos is anyone's guess.

    since they still had over mio players left to pay for the expansion

    Still need a source for this.

    and that expansion failed horribly in keeping the remaining players

    The core game failed to keep 90% of the players and you call it better than all other mmos. The expansion failed to keep a couple thousand players and you say it failed horribly. Weird priorities.

    yes , the stats are surprisingly similar. one is because it doesnt take much annoyance to make players quit a new mmo again.
    if i have to play the same game for years, then it pretty much has to be a perfect match. and that pressure is even higher for a F2P title, since it
    didnt cost them anything to try it. if it doesnt work out, then they just move on the the next game
    it is simply not the same game anymore. it failed miserably , as your own stats very clearly shows.
    200k players is getting too close to APB territory, you never want those numbers in a big title

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    i said pof sold 500k in the first MONTH.

    In 8 days (the first month) POF sold 500k then? Since you haven't posted a link yet it's impossible to know the exact time frame, but the first month of POF was September 2017 and lasted exactly 8 days (launched September 22). I wouldn't call 500k sales in just 8 days so bad though. I'll wait for your link for verification what that "first month" meant, once you post it.

    core did better than pretty much all other mmos

    It did well because it sold 3 million in the first 4 months. Then it sold 2 more million in the next 31 months, that's about 64k sales per month, a massive reduction compared to how much POF sold (or HOT), how you call 64k sales/month better than all other mmos is anyone's guess.

    since they still had over mio players left to pay for the expansion

    Still need a source for this.

    and that expansion failed horribly in keeping the remaining players

    The core game failed to keep 90% of the players and you call it better than all other mmos. The expansion failed to keep a couple thousand players and you say it failed horribly. Weird priorities.

    yes , the stats are surprisingly similar. one is because it doesnt take much annoyance to make players quit a new mmo again.
    if i have to play the same game for years, then it pretty much has to be a perfect match. and that pressure is even higher for a F2P title, since it

    What stats are similar? 500k in 8 days and 3 million in 4 months?

    didnt cost them anything to try it. if it doesnt work out, then they just move on the the next game
    it is simply not the same game anymore. it failed miserably , as your own stats very clearly shows.

    Yes that's what happens with free games and what happened when they made the core game free. The core did fail miserably when it went free to play, that was never under debate.

    200k players is getting too close to APB territory, you never want those numbers in a big title

    It's a good thing we aren't at that point then. Unless you have some link clearly stating we are at 200k players

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    out of 12 mio. and casuals would never use it either. it is echo chambering and fart sniffing par excellence.

    It takes 10 seconds to upload an API key; you don't even need to create an account.

    People recommend gw2efficiency all the time to casual players asking "How do I make money??" because it is by far the easiest way for people who DON'T play the market, and DON'T farm, and maybe don't even craft at all to find hidden valuables just sitting uselessly in their bank and material storage.

    It's very helpful for a lot of fun, low-effort stuff like birthday presents or starting a cat collection. (Try it out: go to gw2efficiency and collect some cats for your home instance.)

    You're absolutely married to the idea that "casual players" are know-nothing louts who can barely figure out how to play a dang video game — because that puts you in the position of being able to speak for the faceless masses who would never be caught dead pressing the dodge button at the right time or experimenting with their character abilities or using a website — when the reality is that there isn't a hard-line division between these categories and a lot of the player base is doing both "casual" stuff and "hardcore" stuff at the same time.

    i am still in top 10% of APS. so im prolly better, than most players here. so much for "barely knowing how to play a game". yep, the line can be blurry, but hot went far beyond it.
    and why would i want cats in my home instance? i am never there anyway.
    PS "all the time" still ended up 300k users. thats 2,5 % of the official number of players. pretty close to the industry standard for raiders. yep.

    Grinding APs is not a way to measure someone's game knowledge or ability to play the game.
    "I have more AP so I'm better" is quite a disconnected conclusion to draw.

    isnt that the normal way to measure success in an mmo? playing the content? im not claiming the title or anything, but i have still played more than
    most other players. if PLAYING THE GAME isnt enough, then what is?

    No? It has nothing to do with the level of player's knowledge or ability to play the game. You can literally just do 3 easy tasks daily for an extended amount of time and that alone puts you at 15k/high % of the whole community. It means absolutely nothing.

    If you claim "playing the game is enough" then how can you possibly try to say that HoT/PoF content -apparently including story- is too hard? Are you serious right now? :lol:
    "playing the game" isn't the equivalent of understanding the game and its mechanics. I seriously don't understand how you can think otherwise.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @WorldofBay.8160 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    What do you all challenge haters pretend of this game? To be a walk in the park? Do you want anet to turn mobs into freaking paintings? Havn't you had enough with core tyria beeing so freaking easy? do you want mobs to become static with no attack or interaction whatsoever? This is the mentality that drove anet to the mess they are in now, with no clear direction and all sort of players leaving, first they lost almost all pvpers, now they are loosing hardcore pvers, soon they will only have open world bots running around playing for a few months and quitting out of boredom, and all of the ones playing fashion wars standing still in the bank...

    its pretty easy: we liked core, and thats what we want MORE of...not something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
    quitting the game AFTER you played it, out of BOREDOM, is still better than quitting BEFORE the end
    if you made a meal for all you friends, and they all put down the fork after one bite, it prolly wasnt that great
    but if they clear the table in record time, and ask for MORE, then it has the quality, that people wil PAY for

    First of all "YOU" liked core, not "we".
    Second, core tyria is hands down one of the most boring experiences I had in all the mmorpgs I've played, you just run around chasing vistas, completing those stupid hearts, yeah it might be cool that gw2 doesn't have any "go kill 50 bulls and come back" quests, yet those freaking hearts are the same or sometimes worst fun wise.
    There is not even a single mob that can kill you there unless you just afk, even world bosses, the best world boss design you will see it on that black phantom if you start as human, but thats it, a pretty huge mob with 3 crosshairs and a few animations, luckluster, and the endgame are dungeons, which are so easy, and need a huge revamp for so long already, it's pointless.
    I myself for example started enjoying the pve in this game after reaching hot, the old one, not this crappy nerfed version we got now, not only it's so heavily nerfed you have mounts to even skip the whole maps today, and quitted the game after watching how easy pof was, same as core but with more lag, oh sorry i mean more flashy colors and animations.

    the fact, that they nerfed hot is proof, that it didnt do well. and it is not normal to buy expansions in a game, that you HATE.

    the fact that the shatterer got buffed is proof that core is too easy.
    see i can use that argument as well.

    its a hardcore boss, that most casuals would never touch anyway. they can give him 100 mio HP, and make him invincible for all i care

    No, it's not, what kind of weird made up claim is this? It's a world boss in level 40-50 zone, lol.

    yep, "world boss". maybe the AP tab can show how many players have taken it down. if i was ever near it, i prolly got killed and switched toons
    maybe i got lucky and switched BEFORE it killed me

    LOL, that's hilarious. Especially in connection with your claim about "AP = skill" or whatever that was.
    It is a world boss in z level 40-50 zone. It's not any "hardcore boss". I seriously don't know what you're talkin about and I suspect you don't know that either.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    when a player choses to use the same build through the whole core game, its pretty safe to say, that they LOVE that build.
    even worse, it is the build, that they KNOW how to play. changing the rules so late in the game is sheer stupidity, and its going to
    kitten off most players. they chose that role for a good reason. and if it is wrong, then it has to be so from the start

    First of all, that last line was not in my original quote, so I presume it was meant to be the first line of your argument (corrected above). You may have made a minor mistake when assembling your post, so that one of your sentences got added to the end of your quote of my post. Regardless...

    To address your argument darling, I think it is fair to say that most players don't choose a role when they play the game. They put together some skills that they like, and then play through most of the game with that build. Since the core game barely challenges anyone, it is quite possible for that build to be a really REALLY bad build. Even if it is a build they "know how to play" and "love", it might simply be terrible. So when such a player then tries HoT, they run into a brick wall.

    Before the release of HoT, these forums were full of people asking for better and more challenging combat. They weren't wrong, the core combat is pretty shallow and boring to be honest, mostly due to lack of interesting mechanics. A lot of those concerns were addressed in HoT and further refined in PoF and Living Story. Breakbars became a thing, bosses received phases, enemies received attacks and abilities that heavily punish players when they hit. Basically a huge overhaul of GW2's combat system.

    I think this change was badly needed to keep players interested, but it does mark a sudden change in difficulty. Especially players who didn't experience Living Story season 1 and 2 will be ill prepared for HoT throws at them. Plus HoT also seems more designed with groups of players in mind, rather than a solo experience. The tutorials of the game weren't updated to reflect these changes either, making HoT into this brick wall of difficulty for lots of players. It's understandable.

    "putting some skills together" is acually how you make a character in this game, no? and dont get me started on the breakbar.
    yep, they listened to the content locusts, and they have been chasing dogs tail ever since.

    They listened to people that actually want to understand game's meechanics, not some "content locust" like you keep calling it. If you want to smile at dying mobs after you hold 1 key then stay in starting zones or just core maps in general and continue being happy.

    "putting some skills together" is how you make a character in this game, sure -which doesn't mean that any combination of traits and skills is a coherent one, not sure what you're trying to argue here. All you're showing is your lack of understanding of the basics of the game. Maybe if you've put in that direction HALF of the effort you're showing on the forum to complain, you wouldn't actually have a reason to complain.
    Now that I think about it... maybe that's your issue? Maybe you don't want solutions, you just want to keep complaining instead?

    Also just a reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

    if they can get to end game content in a few days, then they ARE content locusts, no dev team could ever keep up with them

    No, they're not and it has nothing to do with this thread in the first place.

    they literally devoured YEARS of work in a few days, and then they start complaining

    ???
    Wrong thread? Or what's exactly your point here?

    listening to their demands is a sure way to make it into another niche mmo

    What "demands"? You think anet consulted anyone before/while making expansions? Stop with your silly baseless claims.


    And another reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    i said pof sold 500k in the first MONTH.

    In 8 days (the first month) POF sold 500k then?

    This is not a very convincing way to make an argument, since everyone knows, I thought, that a month can just be 30 days?

    month noun

    \ ˈmən(t)th \
    plural months\ ˈmən(t)s , ˈmən(t)ths \
    Definition of month
    1: a measure of time corresponding nearly to the period of the moon's revolution and amounting to approximately 4 weeks or 30 days or ¹/₁₂ of a year
    2: months plural : an indefinite usually extended period of time
    he has been gone for months
    3: one ninth of the typical duration of human pregnancy
    she was in her eighth month

    Not really, there is the word "first" in there. The "first month" of POF was September 2017. The "first month of the year" is January, not the first 30 days of the year.