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HoT = Dark Souls ? Casual Gamer perspective.

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  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    Maybe they could mention the increase in difficulty in HoT expansion content and add some tips and strategies in the new player guide, so players are aware before entering. Might also be useful to mention that mounts can be unlocked account wide by doing the PoF expansion content first.

    What they should have done IMO:

    Create kind of a Pact "boot camp" for jungle warfare in Silverwastes that players have to pass before they are allowed to enter VB (possibly as part of the personal story):

    "Commander, we have managed to capture some Mordrem and wildlife from the Maguuma jungle. We use them to familiarize our troops with the threads that await us there." Players would then get pitched into 1-on-1 fights against some typical Maguuma opponents, for instance:

    • fight a Mordrem sniper without getting hit by his charged shot
    • fight a rolling devil by breaking its defiance bar
    • fight a smokescale where they have to move out of the smoke screen
    • fight a Mordrem cavalier without getting knocked down, etc ...

    But of course it's much too late for that now. I guess the best one can do now to accustom oneself to the difficulty increase is something like:
    -> play a bit in Orr
    -> play at least a couple of days in SW (non-RIBA), gives you a bit of foretaste of what to expect in HoT
    -> VB

    if they had done that, i wouldnt even had entered maguma. they would had lost even more players and money. it sucks now, but telling players
    in advance HOW much it sucks is a big mistake

    So issue isnt that its hard its just that you want everything to be easy and dont want to adapt. Like cc is not hard. Dodging is not hard its just in core you would rarely be put in a situation where you needed to dodge. Most casual players dont have your hardlock you want things to fit your narrative atm so you refuse to really listen on advice ppl give you. Hot is no where near dark souls in difficulty its obvius you never played it.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    lets see , wow did exceptionally well, as long as they stuck to the formula. when they CHANGED it, the game went south.
    same with CoX, villain side was just more of the same. STOs "expansions" added new features and new races, while increasing difficulty slightly.
    dont know about FF, since i never made i past lvl 20. SWTOR expansions did have higher difficulty, but they also have increased level cap and other new
    features to help the casuals.

    Didnt lose wow so many players because they removed basically all build variety and tried to make it extremely casual friendly?
    Every expansion simplified things.
    Gw2 lost almost all players 2months into the game. Release was riddled with bugs. Every 2nd event was stuck and there was basically no endgame.

    mists of pandaria was when they removed the talent tree and gave us PET BATTLES instead
    the decline actually started with cataclysm, mostly because they never FINISHED it, still so many bugs in it today
    in todays format, its hardly a game anymore, its so slow and clunky, that i am surprised, that they still have ANY players left

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    yep, i have uninstalled again and went back to dcuo. pof was annoying too, but at least we got mounts. wont finish that either, it simply isnt worth the time and effort

    you do realize, that they have NERFED core? and i certainly wont grind metas, so i can pay farmers for the good runes .
    if it isnt doable, with the gear i have, then i simply wont do it. THEY promised a game without gear grind

    Sounds to me like you just don't really enjoy the game and refuse to engage with it to a point where you neither want to learn how to play it well, nor work for any gear - which is far from a grind in GW2, and have already moved on, which while fine, I'm not sure why you are still here complaining about it.

    sure mr internet stranger , ill just let you decide what i like. and doing content, that i have done before, to get more gold IS grinding, no matter how you try and
    twist it.

    I'm not deciding what you like or dislike nor am I trying to twist anything, I'm just going off by what you are saying. Fact is doing content more than once and content replayability to obtain things is a huge part of MMO's longevity. If you don't enjoy that at all and "having to" do something even just twice is already grind to you, then you are obviously not going to enjoy the vast majority of MMO's longterm, at least not any I have ever played.

    If GW2, which essentially showers it's players in gear and such compared to most other MMO's is still too grindy for you, the MMORPG genre (along with some others like ARPG's) might simply not be for you.

    i can grind if they give me something USEFUL for it. a 10 min daily mission in dcuo will give a lootbox with 2 choices of gear, with good chance of an actual UPGRADE
    i have done metas in hot, opening or vendoring a ton of trash loot is NOT the same, it is simply annoying. and you need a ton of bagspace for it too

    And a 10 minute daily in GW2 will give you 2g, for which you can buy exotic gear off the TP without any chance involved.

    Nobody is saying you have to grind Metas specifically, I personally don't enjoy those either.

    YOU can do it in 10 mins, i prolly cant do it at all. and i would have to it for months, since the most expensive parts are the runes and sigils.
    so we are talking about months of work, to play more content, that i dont like anyway.
    suddenly those dirty dishes look awfully tempting...yea, ill just do chores instead. the loot is better, and the fun factor is the same.

    Again, it just seems like you are simply not really enjoying the game if it's just a chore for you/you would rather do actual chores. Not sure why you are saying I'm twisting anything with that statement.
    Once you obsess over rewards and what you have to do for how long to get x, it's a pretty clear sign that you are not enjoying a game for it's moment to moment gameplay and it's own sake, which is a pretty good indicator to take a break or move on.

    But beyond that, not having the perfect Runes and Sigils is really not what's going to keep you from being able to complete OW (or any other) content and are overall fairly low impact beyond min maxing. So I'm not sure why their acquisition is such a sticking point.
    If you enjoy the game and have a good time and just keep playing it because it's fun, you will eventually be able to acquire these things.
    If you don't enjoy the game for it's own sake to even get there, getting certain Runes and Sigils won't fix that either anyway.

    really? better gear= progression, its one the most important RPG mechanisms.
    putting it on the free market only ensured one thing: that goldfarmers would have something IMPORTANT to make money on

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    yep, i have uninstalled again and went back to dcuo. pof was annoying too, but at least we got mounts. wont finish that either, it simply isnt worth the time and effort

    you do realize, that they have NERFED core? and i certainly wont grind metas, so i can pay farmers for the good runes .
    if it isnt doable, with the gear i have, then i simply wont do it. THEY promised a game without gear grind

    Sounds to me like you just don't really enjoy the game and refuse to engage with it to a point where you neither want to learn how to play it well, nor work for any gear - which is far from a grind in GW2, and have already moved on, which while fine, I'm not sure why you are still here complaining about it.

    sure mr internet stranger , ill just let you decide what i like. and doing content, that i have done before, to get more gold IS grinding, no matter how you try and
    twist it.

    I'm not deciding what you like or dislike nor am I trying to twist anything, I'm just going off by what you are saying. Fact is doing content more than once and content replayability to obtain things is a huge part of MMO's longevity. If you don't enjoy that at all and "having to" do something even just twice is already grind to you, then you are obviously not going to enjoy the vast majority of MMO's longterm, at least not any I have ever played.

    If GW2, which essentially showers it's players in gear and such compared to most other MMO's is still too grindy for you, the MMORPG genre (along with some others like ARPG's) might simply not be for you.

    i can grind if they give me something USEFUL for it. a 10 min daily mission in dcuo will give a lootbox with 2 choices of gear, with good chance of an actual UPGRADE
    i have done metas in hot, opening or vendoring a ton of trash loot is NOT the same, it is simply annoying. and you need a ton of bagspace for it too

    And a 10 minute daily in GW2 will give you 2g, for which you can buy exotic gear off the TP without any chance involved.

    Nobody is saying you have to grind Metas specifically, I personally don't enjoy those either.

    YOU can do it in 10 mins, i prolly cant do it at all. and i would have to it for months, since the most expensive parts are the runes and sigils.
    so we are talking about months of work, to play more content, that i dont like anyway.
    suddenly those dirty dishes look awfully tempting...yea, ill just do chores instead. the loot is better, and the fun factor is the same.

    Again, it just seems like you are simply not really enjoying the game if it's just a chore for you/you would rather do actual chores. Not sure why you are saying I'm twisting anything with that statement.
    Once you obsess over rewards and what you have to do for how long to get x, it's a pretty clear sign that you are not enjoying a game for it's moment to moment gameplay and it's own sake, which is a pretty good indicator to take a break or move on.

    But beyond that, not having the perfect Runes and Sigils is really not what's going to keep you from being able to complete OW (or any other) content and are overall fairly low impact beyond min maxing. So I'm not sure why their acquisition is such a sticking point.
    If you enjoy the game and have a good time and just keep playing it because it's fun, you will eventually be able to acquire these things.
    If you don't enjoy the game for it's own sake to even get there, getting certain Runes and Sigils won't fix that either anyway.

    really? better gear= progression, its one the most important RPG mechanisms.
    putting it on the free market only ensured one thing: that goldfarmers would have something IMPORTANT to make money on

    So you want a easy game with no gear progression just skins no difficulty or engaging goal ?. Gear is hardly farm able crafted gear cost more than its sold for to make . There is gears wich already has stats and runes on them. But you probly ignore reading this for you dont want advice( alot of ppl here gave you advice you just shout them down for they dont agree with you, you complain its hard but its obvius you barly try and second anything is slightly challenging you get angry just try to listen you dont need meta for hot or open world you just need to understand how your class works and interact with your gear the core game was so low engaging it only required you to auto attack so alot of ppl got bored as it was harder to actually get downed than killing enemies. Anet had to up difficulty for game was declining due to no end game goals. But as you dont want a game wich requires some slight effort.)

  • Well my look on this is is this even possible ?
    In theory yes if you farm ectos for a year maybe I have 1,2k of them I think I made every 4-6 weeks 1 k if I farm on a daily basis the new map then properly faster.
    But there is a big problem at least for now . The numbers of shards in the trading post are only enough for 40 people building one xD I'm actually more surprised finding so many in it because
    1.) The amount is flimsy so selling it doesn't bring much
    2.) The new map meta takes some time because of this you usually find more hardcore players on it which in return should be all after the infusion.

    In theory the amount will increase over time and the demand will shrink.

    Direct buying it is for most players not an option.

  • @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    Well my look on this is is this even possible ?
    In theory yes if you farm ectos for a year maybe I have 1,2k of them I think I made every 4-6 weeks 1 k if I farm on a daily basis the new map then properly faster.
    But there is a big problem at least for now . The numbers of shards in the trading post are only enough for 40 people building one xD I'm actually more surprised finding so many in it because
    1.) The amount is flimsy so selling it doesn't bring much
    2.) The new map meta takes some time because of this you usually find more hardcore players on it which in return should be all after the infusion.

    In theory the amount will increase over time and the demand will shrink.

    Direct buying it is for most players not an option.

    Eh i think this wrong thread

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    lets see , wow did exceptionally well, as long as they stuck to the formula. when they CHANGED it, the game went south.
    same with CoX, villain side was just more of the same. STOs "expansions" added new features and new races, while increasing difficulty slightly.
    dont know about FF, since i never made i past lvl 20. SWTOR expansions did have higher difficulty, but they also have increased level cap and other new
    features to help the casuals.

    Didnt lose wow so many players because they removed basically all build variety and tried to make it extremely casual friendly?
    Every expansion simplified things.
    Gw2 lost almost all players 2months into the game. Release was riddled with bugs. Every 2nd event was stuck and there was basically no endgame.

    It can't get more casual than WoW Vanilla/Classic.
    You are able to kill Onyxia with a completely naked Raidgroup using a hunter pet as tank.

    WoW actually peaked with WotLK. There wasn't really build variety, since meta builds didn't really allow for it.

    Required massive attunement processes to even enter that. 40man raids meant organizing those many people required a set schedule and everything, Dungeons could take 3h+ to complete. Wouldnt call that casual friendly. Raids were easy compared to todays standards but guide websites werent that common back then and time investment required was still huge.

    Most of those factors are not created by the game, but by the players.
    The vanilla raids are so easy that you don't even need the organization of 40man groups.
    Anything can take 3h+ to complete if players are bad, take a look at Arah during release, when players didn't skip and didn't get the game mechanics. I wouldn't call that casual friendly, either.

    I'd call the Classic raids/dungeons way more casual friendly than anything that has been released in the last 10 years in terms of MMORPGs ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    End game raiding (referring to mythic) in WoW nowadays is the least casual friendly it has ever been.

    How is massive attunement process created by the players and not by the game? Or requireing 40people. Casual and easy have nothing in common. Something can be hard and casual friendly. Casual != bad player. This gets mixed up a lot. Just because someone cant spend 2h+ uninterrupted doesnt mean such a player is unable to learn or use a braindead open world build. There is however a crowd that identifies themselves as casuals but in reality just hate learning or thinking as a whole. There are people playing with whatever dropped for their characters while they have 1k+ h spend ingame. Thats just not a matter of casual or hardcore, they are just bad. Other mmos solved this issue with just not having bad drops. System in gw2 allows for the most useless combinations. Could potentially be solved with a gearcheck so you could at least try to give tips but there are still some players against it for some reason.

    Almost nobody saw the last raid tier in classic. Thats why it was the first raid of wotlk. Wasted assets if below 1% even entered it. Way fewer actually killed bosses in there. Was crazy expensive to open it or it required a massive reputation grind. The dungeon i have in mind is just super long. 16bosses... people spend 4h+ in there without really wiping. it wasnt even a maxlevel dungeon. Mythic+ raiding is not the same as classic raiding. classic had just one difficulty and getting 40 players together was hard when a mistake made by a single person could wipe the entire raid.

    I never said casual players are bad, just that there were a lot of bad players during vanilla due to lack of knowledge on how to play.
    You could see keyboard turners everywhere, and many used useless equipment, since they didn‘t know better.

    You never actually required 40 people to raid, that was just the maximum Groupsize that could enter Raids back then. With good players, no matter if „casuals“ or „hardcores“ or „regulars“ you could easily clear raids. I mean, even Onyxia was cleared by a full naked raidgroup with a pet tank.

    Almost nobody saw Naxx in vanilla because BC was releasing close to Naxx release, so most didn‘t bother with it, since their stats would be invalidated.
    Yeah, Mythic raiding isn‘t the same as classic, it is less casual, since WoW actually became less casual in endgame raiding, not more casual. That‘s my point. You can‘t get more casual than classic/vanilla.

    Attunements were only a problem due to lack of knowledge, as you can see nowadays during classic.

    I still stand by the point that classic is way more casual friendly than anything that has released in the last 10 years. I bet Naxx will also just be PuG‘d to death.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    Maybe they could mention the increase in difficulty in HoT expansion content and add some tips and strategies in the new player guide, so players are aware before entering. Might also be useful to mention that mounts can be unlocked account wide by doing the PoF expansion content first.

    What they should have done IMO:

    Create kind of a Pact "boot camp" for jungle warfare in Silverwastes that players have to pass before they are allowed to enter VB (possibly as part of the personal story):

    "Commander, we have managed to capture some Mordrem and wildlife from the Maguuma jungle. We use them to familiarize our troops with the threads that await us there." Players would then get pitched into 1-on-1 fights against some typical Maguuma opponents, for instance:

    • fight a Mordrem sniper without getting hit by his charged shot
    • fight a rolling devil by breaking its defiance bar
    • fight a smokescale where they have to move out of the smoke screen
    • fight a Mordrem cavalier without getting knocked down, etc ...

    But of course it's much too late for that now. I guess the best one can do now to accustom oneself to the difficulty increase is something like:
    -> play a bit in Orr
    -> play at least a couple of days in SW (non-RIBA), gives you a bit of foretaste of what to expect in HoT
    -> VB

    if they had done that, i wouldnt even had entered maguma. they would had lost even more players and money. it sucks now, but telling players
    in advance HOW much it sucks is a big mistake

    Yeah, this type of gating would not have been a good idea IMO.

    I think that most of the complaints have come from new players boosting to 80 and then getting wiped in HoT because they don't know anything about the game's mechanics or their character's skills/abilities/gear/build. Does the core game properly prepare players for HoT? Arguably no, but gating access to an expansion in the manner suggested isn't the answer. At least, I don't believe so.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    lets see , wow did exceptionally well, as long as they stuck to the formula. when they CHANGED it, the game went south.
    same with CoX, villain side was just more of the same. STOs "expansions" added new features and new races, while increasing difficulty slightly.
    dont know about FF, since i never made i past lvl 20. SWTOR expansions did have higher difficulty, but they also have increased level cap and other new
    features to help the casuals.

    As someone who has played a fair few MMOs and read your posts on and off on this forum for a while now....
    I do not believe that you are at all representative of the average casual gamer.
    Most of the ones I have played with or talked to struggle with this game a fair bit less than you claim to.

    The fact that you on one hand talk about how grindy gearing in GW2 is, while consistently talking about playing DCUO, (a simple game with a very punishing end game gear grind that gates your progress behind gear score with endless dailies and rng drops) is.....odd.

    dcuo is a pretty standard mmo, and they dont claim to be anything else

    GW2 was SOLD with the PROMISE of a no grind policy. if you dont see the problem there...
    furthermore, dcuo dont let the players control the flow of important items, like runes and weapon enhancements
    if i want to progress, i literally have to pay a GOLD FARMER. not gonna happen

    You misinterpreted what they meant by no grind.

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    if they had done that, i wouldnt even had entered maguma. they would had lost even more players and money. it sucks now, but telling players
    in advance HOW much it sucks is a big mistake

    Preparing players for a future encounter is not the same thing as saying how much something sucks.

  • Croc.1978Croc.1978 Member ✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    Maybe they could mention the increase in difficulty in HoT expansion content and add some tips and strategies in the new player guide, so players are aware before entering. Might also be useful to mention that mounts can be unlocked account wide by doing the PoF expansion content first.

    What they should have done IMO:

    Create kind of a Pact "boot camp" for jungle warfare in Silverwastes that players have to pass before they are allowed to enter VB (possibly as part of the personal story):

    "Commander, we have managed to capture some Mordrem and wildlife from the Maguuma jungle. We use them to familiarize our troops with the threads that await us there." Players would then get pitched into 1-on-1 fights against some typical Maguuma opponents, for instance:

    • fight a Mordrem sniper without getting hit by his charged shot
    • fight a rolling devil by breaking its defiance bar
    • fight a smokescale where they have to move out of the smoke screen
    • fight a Mordrem cavalier without getting knocked down, etc ...

    But of course it's much too late for that now. I guess the best one can do now to accustom oneself to the difficulty increase is something like:
    -> play a bit in Orr
    -> play at least a couple of days in SW (non-RIBA), gives you a bit of foretaste of what to expect in HoT
    -> VB

    if they had done that, i wouldnt even had entered maguma. they would had lost even more players and money. it sucks now, but telling players
    in advance HOW much it sucks is a big mistake

    Yeah, this type of gating would not have been a good idea IMO.

    I think that most of the complaints have come from new players boosting to 80 and then getting wiped in HoT because they don't know anything about the game's mechanics or their character's skills/abilities/gear/build. Does the core game properly prepare players for HoT? Arguably no, but gating access to an expansion in the manner suggested isn't the answer. At least, I don't believe so.

    Well, it is gated already. You have to do the story mission "Rally to Maguuma" once to get access to Verdant Brink. Basically I would just switch the content of that mission to what I suggested. Only one time per account ofc, like it is now. And if people decide to circumvent it via Teleport to Friend, guild halls and whatnot - sure, it's their choice.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Croc.1978 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    Maybe they could mention the increase in difficulty in HoT expansion content and add some tips and strategies in the new player guide, so players are aware before entering. Might also be useful to mention that mounts can be unlocked account wide by doing the PoF expansion content first.

    What they should have done IMO:

    Create kind of a Pact "boot camp" for jungle warfare in Silverwastes that players have to pass before they are allowed to enter VB (possibly as part of the personal story):

    "Commander, we have managed to capture some Mordrem and wildlife from the Maguuma jungle. We use them to familiarize our troops with the threads that await us there." Players would then get pitched into 1-on-1 fights against some typical Maguuma opponents, for instance:

    • fight a Mordrem sniper without getting hit by his charged shot
    • fight a rolling devil by breaking its defiance bar
    • fight a smokescale where they have to move out of the smoke screen
    • fight a Mordrem cavalier without getting knocked down, etc ...

    But of course it's much too late for that now. I guess the best one can do now to accustom oneself to the difficulty increase is something like:
    -> play a bit in Orr
    -> play at least a couple of days in SW (non-RIBA), gives you a bit of foretaste of what to expect in HoT
    -> VB

    if they had done that, i wouldnt even had entered maguma. they would had lost even more players and money. it sucks now, but telling players
    in advance HOW much it sucks is a big mistake

    Yeah, this type of gating would not have been a good idea IMO.

    I think that most of the complaints have come from new players boosting to 80 and then getting wiped in HoT because they don't know anything about the game's mechanics or their character's skills/abilities/gear/build. Does the core game properly prepare players for HoT? Arguably no, but gating access to an expansion in the manner suggested isn't the answer. At least, I don't believe so.

    Well, it is gated already. You have to do the story mission "Rally to Maguuma" once to get access to Verdant Brink. Basically I would just switch the content of that mission to what I suggested. Only one time per account ofc, like it is now. And if people decide to circumvent it via Teleport to Friend, guild halls and whatnot - sure, it's their choice.

    Didn't say that it wasn't gated; only that the type of gating suggested would not have been a good idea. IMO

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    Maybe they could mention the increase in difficulty in HoT expansion content and add some tips and strategies in the new player guide, so players are aware before entering. Might also be useful to mention that mounts can be unlocked account wide by doing the PoF expansion content first.

    What they should have done IMO:

    Create kind of a Pact "boot camp" for jungle warfare in Silverwastes that players have to pass before they are allowed to enter VB (possibly as part of the personal story):

    "Commander, we have managed to capture some Mordrem and wildlife from the Maguuma jungle. We use them to familiarize our troops with the threads that await us there." Players would then get pitched into 1-on-1 fights against some typical Maguuma opponents, for instance:

    • fight a Mordrem sniper without getting hit by his charged shot
    • fight a rolling devil by breaking its defiance bar
    • fight a smokescale where they have to move out of the smoke screen
    • fight a Mordrem cavalier without getting knocked down, etc ...

    But of course it's much too late for that now. I guess the best one can do now to accustom oneself to the difficulty increase is something like:
    -> play a bit in Orr
    -> play at least a couple of days in SW (non-RIBA), gives you a bit of foretaste of what to expect in HoT
    -> VB

    if they had done that, i wouldnt even had entered maguma. they would had lost even more players and money. it sucks now, but telling players
    in advance HOW much it sucks is a big mistake

    Like cc is not hard. Dodging is not hard its just in core you would rarely be put in a situation where you needed to dodge.

    This is true. Dodging is very important in HoT maps against enemies and makes a huge difference. For example, against the champion mushroom king, in my opinion the important things that I've seen are to kite as much as possible to avoid getting hit by the charge and saving your endurance to dodge back quickly when it pulls you in close, as it does a flip soon after the pull that does large AoE damage.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Theres nothing wrong with HoT. Its pretty easy now, and mounts trivialize the content.

    this thread wouldnt exist if everything was "fine".

    This is not a particularly valid point. This thread's existence has no bearing on whether or not everything, or even anything, is fine overall.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    Maybe they could mention the increase in difficulty in HoT expansion content and add some tips and strategies in the new player guide, so players are aware before entering. Might also be useful to mention that mounts can be unlocked account wide by doing the PoF expansion content first.

    What they should have done IMO:

    Create kind of a Pact "boot camp" for jungle warfare in Silverwastes that players have to pass before they are allowed to enter VB (possibly as part of the personal story):

    "Commander, we have managed to capture some Mordrem and wildlife from the Maguuma jungle. We use them to familiarize our troops with the threads that await us there." Players would then get pitched into 1-on-1 fights against some typical Maguuma opponents, for instance:

    • fight a Mordrem sniper without getting hit by his charged shot
    • fight a rolling devil by breaking its defiance bar
    • fight a smokescale where they have to move out of the smoke screen
    • fight a Mordrem cavalier without getting knocked down, etc ...

    But of course it's much too late for that now. I guess the best one can do now to accustom oneself to the difficulty increase is something like:
    -> play a bit in Orr
    -> play at least a couple of days in SW (non-RIBA), gives you a bit of foretaste of what to expect in HoT
    -> VB

    if they had done that, i wouldnt even had entered maguma. they would had lost even more players and money. it sucks now, but telling players
    in advance HOW much it sucks is a big mistake

    So issue isnt that its hard its just that you want everything to be easy and dont want to adapt. Like cc is not hard. Dodging is not hard its just in core you would rarely be put in a situation where you needed to dodge. Most casual players dont have your hardlock you want things to fit your narrative atm so you refuse to really listen on advice ppl give you. Hot is no where near dark souls in difficulty its obvius you never played it.

    like i said, i know enough about dark souls to avoid it, it has everything i DONT want in a game.
    dodging isnt hard, but it isnt FUN either,it is only content padding, forcing players to stay with the same mob for longer time
    considering the number of raids i have paid for in wow, i am not even against all hard content, i just dont want to PLAY it
    they can make some super hardcore raids, if they make some content for ME too
    one size does NOT fit all

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    GW2 was SOLD with the PROMISE of a no grind policy. if you dont see the problem there...
    furthermore, dcuo dont let the players control the flow of important items, like runes and weapon enhancements
    if i want to progress, i literally have to pay a GOLD FARMER. not gonna happen

    In DCUO, once I reach the level cap, my new measurement of progress becomes my Gear Score. Increasing my Gear score is done via drops and the usual currency grind. If my Gear score is not high enough, I am quite simply barred from accessing further content (other than seasonal events) than what is available until I get better gear to unlock the level tier of content.
    Once I am there, I have a limited range of content I can participate in until once again my gear score goes up via drops and currencies..... only for this to happen again...and again.

    And when a new content drop happens?.... it's a new tier of gear.

    Older content does not drop the gear or correct currencies. What's worse is that many of the next tier's missions? Are the exact same as the previous tier's only with more hitpoints and damage on the mobs.

    This is a gear grind.

    This is something Guild Wars 2 does not have.

    Once I have myself in full exotics there is zero content that is out of my reach other than t2-4 fractals. Meanwhile the game is constantly showering me with exotic weapons and armor...second best in slot in some cases. .. sometimes just for logging in.
    An 8g sigil can be had for an hour of chopping wood and mining rocks in Mt Maelstrom if that's all I find myself able to do. If I don't want to "pay a gold farmer" for it on the TP I can craft any of it myself usually for a 10-20% savings off the tp price.
    Barring that? The game kicks me down with around 60 gold worth of rewards a month just from logging in.

    As someone who professes to have played as many MMOs as you have, I am very surprised you don't understand this.

    yep, and when was the last time they made other content than seasonal events? i cant remember any, can you?
    i call BS on 8 g/hour by chopping wood, and even if its true, my point still stands: i will NOT pay for some goldfarmers "service " to progress
    SPECIALLY not in a game , that was promoted as "different" in that regard
    EVE has the same mechanic, and it makes sense there, but in a casual mmo, not so much
    i wouldnt be surprised, if they make a vendor, so people can buy them at a fixed (and lower) price
    locking progress behind the AH barons was HUGE mistake

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Theres nothing wrong with HoT. Its pretty easy now, and mounts trivialize the content.

    this thread wouldnt exist if everything was "fine".

    This is not a particularly valid point. This thread's existence has no bearing on whether or not everything, or even anything, is fine overall.

    when things are fine, people just play the game instead. do you know anyone, who will stop something they are enjoying, so they can write some words on the net?
    this is a hot hate thread, and i was a part of of it. same as always. we should nuke maguma from orbit. a 50 MT hydrogen device at 10000 ft should be adequate.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    yep, and when was the last time they made other content than seasonal events? i cant remember any, can you?
    i call BS on 8 g/hour by chopping wood, and even if its true, my point still stands: i will NOT pay for some goldfarmers "service " to progress

    8g an hour is on the lower end of the scale and half what it was three years ago before mounts and a season and a half of LW farms shifted the economy.
    It is absolutely reasonable and doable.

    SPECIALLY not in a game , that was promoted as "different" in that regard
    EVE has the same mechanic, and it makes sense there, but in a casual mmo, not so much

    To compare this game with EVE online is even more asinine than the Dark Souls link that started this thread.
    What's clear is you do not understand what actually drives the economy in this game, or do and are just clinging to a false argument.
    @battledrone.8315 You are not representative of casual players in this game.

    i wouldnt be surprised, if they make a vendor, so people can buy them at a fixed (and lower) price
    locking progress behind the AH barons was HUGE mistake

    No one in this game is making big bank off runes and sigils or armorcrafting. In many cases the components used to craft them are worth less crafted than they are sold separately
    These items seldom even net the creator more than 10% over tp fees.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    yep, and when was the last time they made other content than seasonal events? i cant remember any, can you?
    i call BS on 8 g/hour by chopping wood, and even if its true, my point still stands: i will NOT pay for some goldfarmers "service " to progress

    8g an hour is on the lower end of the scale and half what it was three years ago before mounts and a season and a half of LW farms shifted the economy.
    It is absolutely reasonable and doable.

    SPECIALLY not in a game , that was promoted as "different" in that regard
    EVE has the same mechanic, and it makes sense there, but in a casual mmo, not so much

    To compare this game with EVE online is even more asinine than the Dark Souls link that started this thread.
    What's clear is you do not understand what actually drives the economy in this game, or do and are just clinging to a false argument.
    @battledrone.8315 You are not representative of casual players in this game.

    i wouldnt be surprised, if they make a vendor, so people can buy them at a fixed (and lower) price
    locking progress behind the AH barons was HUGE mistake

    No one in this game is making big bank off runes and sigils or armorcrafting. In many cases the components used to craft them are worth less crafted than they are sold separately
    These items seldom even net the creator more than 10% over tp fees.

    loool the cheapest runes are around 2-3 s, and the USEFUL ones are from 3 g and upwards...come again?
    i know im not representative anymore, but i was, when they still HAD all those millions of happy players
    EVE is an mmo, just like this is, i have played both, and they are in the same market

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    yep, and when was the last time they made other content than seasonal events? i cant remember any, can you?
    i call BS on 8 g/hour by chopping wood, and even if its true, my point still stands: i will NOT pay for some goldfarmers "service " to progress

    8g an hour is on the lower end of the scale and half what it was three years ago before mounts and a season and a half of LW farms shifted the economy.
    It is absolutely reasonable and doable.

    SPECIALLY not in a game , that was promoted as "different" in that regard
    EVE has the same mechanic, and it makes sense there, but in a casual mmo, not so much

    To compare this game with EVE online is even more asinine than the Dark Souls link that started this thread.
    What's clear is you do not understand what actually drives the economy in this game, or do and are just clinging to a false argument.
    @battledrone.8315 You are not representative of casual players in this game.

    i wouldnt be surprised, if they make a vendor, so people can buy them at a fixed (and lower) price
    locking progress behind the AH barons was HUGE mistake

    No one in this game is making big bank off runes and sigils or armorcrafting. In many cases the components used to craft them are worth less crafted than they are sold separately
    These items seldom even net the creator more than 10% over tp fees.

    loool the cheapest runes are around 2-3 s, and the USEFUL ones are from 3 g and upwards...come again?
    i know im not representative anymore, but i was, when they still HAD all those millions of happy players
    EVE is an mmo, just like this is, i have played both, and they are in the same market

    Ok i can offer to buy you gear ok. Wich class do you play wich stats

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    i know im not representative anymore, but i was, when they still HAD all those millions of happy players

    The game never had "millions of happy players". The best it reached was 400k happy players on release day, after that it's debatable how many players were active. You seem to mistake sales with happy players, for a buy to play game those are not equal, as you need to buy it before trying it.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    i know im not representative anymore, but i was, when they still HAD all those millions of happy players

    No.
    I'm sure most of the "millions" could manage to do dailies, didn't have some weird issue with using the TP, enjoyed a game with an open free respec system and didn't struggle with basic combat like you claim to.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Black Storm.6974Black Storm.6974 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020

    I can easily compete things in HoT maps with an alt account, without mounts and with a badly equipped character of a profession I know nothing about.

    It just require some attention (and the ability to dodge and use the auto attack), enough to feel like we are in the dangerous place that Heart of Maguuma is supposed to be.

    For the Hero Points that require to kill a champion I was always able to find someone to help me (even without having to ask).

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    GW2 was SOLD with the PROMISE of a no grind policy. if you dont see the problem there...

    Read this as you misinterpreted the meaning behind their statement of "no grind" and continue to do so

    Hey folks,

    I just want to take a second to address this topic, because it’s something we state as one of our key philosophies – but don’t often clarify exactly what we mean we say it. And because everyone and their mother has their own unique interpretation of what grind can mean, it’s very simple for this to feel like we’re not following our own guidelines when we build and implement content.

    When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

    So what exactly does that mean:

    • The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

    • Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.

    There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category, though we’ll be doing work in HOT to make this much less the case. We feel these are optional choices players don’t need to do, but can if they want, and because they are optional are acceptable within our statement that “Gw2 doesn’t make you grind to have the best gear/stats”. That doesn’t mean we can’t make those activities more fun as well, but when we say “no grind philosophy” we’re not including optional things you can do, but don’t need to do, in our definition.

    Hope that helps a bit, that’s our philosophy and definition we’re going by when we make those statements. They may not align to your definition of grind, and that’s ok – we’re fine with that! It’s just important you know what we mean when we make that statement so you can make decisions about how you view Gw2 and judge us by our actions/words.

    Thanks again for being so passionate about this topic and the game which ever side of the discussion you fall on. It’s something incredibly important to modern MMO’s and gamers in general, and we truly appreciate the dialogue you all are having on topics like this. It’s what makes better games for all of us.

    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    okay, but cats dont have credit cards. core sold many million times. the expansions sold only a fraction of that. apparantly, they could do better, by designing the game for CATS instead

    Core sold well due to over-hype. How much revenue did core lose after a single quarter? This shows how many players -stayed- playing the game after they tried it (hint: not many compared to overall sales)

    This is an unsupported claim given the buy to play business model. You have no way to know whether the decline in Q3 2013 from the all-time high in Q4 2012 (which by the way was the quarter after the game's release quarter) was due to players leaving. A much more likely explanation is that most who were going to buy the game had already bought it by the end of 2012.

    This by the way does not mean I am against what HoT brought to the game, it's just that this particular argument is flawed.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    lets see , wow did exceptionally well, as long as they stuck to the formula. when they CHANGED it, the game went south.
    same with CoX, villain side was just more of the same. STOs "expansions" added new features and new races, while increasing difficulty slightly.
    dont know about FF, since i never made i past lvl 20. SWTOR expansions did have higher difficulty, but they also have increased level cap and other new
    features to help the casuals.

    As someone who has played a fair few MMOs and read your posts on and off on this forum for a while now....
    I do not believe that you are at all representative of the average casual gamer.
    Most of the ones I have played with or talked to struggle with this game a fair bit less than you claim to.

    The fact that you on one hand talk about how grindy gearing in GW2 is, while consistently talking about playing DCUO, (a simple game with a very punishing end game gear grind that gates your progress behind gear score with endless dailies and rng drops) is.....odd.

    dcuo is a pretty standard mmo, and they dont claim to be anything else

    GW2 was SOLD with the PROMISE of a no grind policy. if you dont see the problem there...
    furthermore, dcuo dont let the players control the flow of important items, like runes and weapon enhancements
    if i want to progress, i literally have to pay a GOLD FARMER. not gonna happen

    You misinterpreted what they meant by no grind.

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    if they had done that, i wouldnt even had entered maguma. they would had lost even more players and money. it sucks now, but telling players
    in advance HOW much it sucks is a big mistake

    Preparing players for a future encounter is not the same thing as saying how much something sucks.

    no grind can only mean one thing, unless youre politician. "preparing" doesnt mesh welll with the "jump right into the fun" policy that they
    touted for YEARS before the expansion either. if i had known in advance, i would never even had BOUGHT the expansion.
    other mmos have copied so many things from this game, but hot wasnt one of them. doesnt take much to figure out WHY.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    lets see , wow did exceptionally well, as long as they stuck to the formula. when they CHANGED it, the game went south.
    same with CoX, villain side was just more of the same. STOs "expansions" added new features and new races, while increasing difficulty slightly.
    dont know about FF, since i never made i past lvl 20. SWTOR expansions did have higher difficulty, but they also have increased level cap and other new
    features to help the casuals.

    As someone who has played a fair few MMOs and read your posts on and off on this forum for a while now....
    I do not believe that you are at all representative of the average casual gamer.
    Most of the ones I have played with or talked to struggle with this game a fair bit less than you claim to.

    The fact that you on one hand talk about how grindy gearing in GW2 is, while consistently talking about playing DCUO, (a simple game with a very punishing end game gear grind that gates your progress behind gear score with endless dailies and rng drops) is.....odd.

    dcuo is a pretty standard mmo, and they dont claim to be anything else

    GW2 was SOLD with the PROMISE of a no grind policy. if you dont see the problem there...
    furthermore, dcuo dont let the players control the flow of important items, like runes and weapon enhancements
    if i want to progress, i literally have to pay a GOLD FARMER. not gonna happen

    You misinterpreted what they meant by no grind.

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    if they had done that, i wouldnt even had entered maguma. they would had lost even more players and money. it sucks now, but telling players
    in advance HOW much it sucks is a big mistake

    Preparing players for a future encounter is not the same thing as saying how much something sucks.

    no grind can only mean one thing, unless youre politician. "preparing" doesnt mesh welll with the "jump right into the fun" policy that they
    touted for YEARS before the expansion either. if i had known in advance, i would never even had BOUGHT the expansion.
    other mmos have copied so many things from this game, but hot wasnt one of them. doesnt take much to figure out WHY.

    No. You took it out of context on what they were referring to. They even clarified the what they said year ago, which I posted above, yet you're choosing to ignore that because it doesn't fit your narrative. All MMOs have grind and none would survive long without it because you cannot generate content and rewards quick enough to satisfy all the players; especially the ones who spend 8+ hours every day.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    i know im not representative anymore, but i was, when they still HAD all those millions of happy players

    No.
    I'm sure most of the "millions" could manage to do dailies, didn't have some weird issue with using the TP, enjoyed a game with an open free respec system and didn't struggle with basic combat like you claim to.

    i have only seen ONE mmo where millions were prepared to do dailies, and that was wow back in the happy days. when you start doing dailies, youre not casual anymore,
    you are HOOKED

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    yep, and when was the last time they made other content than seasonal events? i cant remember any, can you?
    i call BS on 8 g/hour by chopping wood, and even if its true, my point still stands: i will NOT pay for some goldfarmers "service " to progress

    8g an hour is on the lower end of the scale and half what it was three years ago before mounts and a season and a half of LW farms shifted the economy.
    It is absolutely reasonable and doable.

    SPECIALLY not in a game , that was promoted as "different" in that regard
    EVE has the same mechanic, and it makes sense there, but in a casual mmo, not so much

    To compare this game with EVE online is even more asinine than the Dark Souls link that started this thread.
    What's clear is you do not understand what actually drives the economy in this game, or do and are just clinging to a false argument.
    @battledrone.8315 You are not representative of casual players in this game.

    i wouldnt be surprised, if they make a vendor, so people can buy them at a fixed (and lower) price
    locking progress behind the AH barons was HUGE mistake

    No one in this game is making big bank off runes and sigils or armorcrafting. In many cases the components used to craft them are worth less crafted than they are sold separately
    These items seldom even net the creator more than 10% over tp fees.

    loool the cheapest runes are around 2-3 s, and the USEFUL ones are from 3 g and upwards...come again?
    i know im not representative anymore, but i was, when they still HAD all those millions of happy players
    EVE is an mmo, just like this is, i have played both, and they are in the same market

    Ok i can offer to buy you gear ok. Wich class do you play wich stats

    thats very nice of you, but i am not playing anymore. reinstalling swtor instead, i havent played that for a long time now

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    okay, but cats dont have credit cards. core sold many million times. the expansions sold only a fraction of that. apparantly, they could do better, by designing the game for CATS instead

    Core sold well due to over-hype. How much revenue did core lose after a single quarter? This shows how many players -stayed- playing the game after they tried it (hint: not many compared to overall sales)

    This is an unsupported claim given the buy to play business model. You have no way to know whether the decline in Q3 2013 from the all-time high in Q4 2012 (which by the way was the quarter after the game's release quarter) was due to players leaving. A much more likely explanation is that most who were going to buy the game had already bought it by the end of 2012.

    This by the way does not mean I am against what HoT brought to the game, it's just that this particular argument is flawed.

    The game was released near the end of Q3 2012 so it was natural for the bulk of sales to be on Q4 2012. By the way you bring an interesting argument, the lack of revenue after a release quarter not being because players left, I wonder how it will be taken when the "revenue after HOT" is discussed again on these forums.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    okay, but cats dont have credit cards. core sold many million times. the expansions sold only a fraction of that. apparantly, they could do better, by designing the game for CATS instead

    Core sold well due to over-hype. How much revenue did core lose after a single quarter? This shows how many players -stayed- playing the game after they tried it (hint: not many compared to overall sales)

    This is an unsupported claim given the buy to play business model. You have no way to know whether the decline in Q3 2013 from the all-time high in Q4 2012 (which by the way was the quarter after the game's release quarter) was due to players leaving. A much more likely explanation is that most who were going to buy the game had already bought it by the end of 2012.

    This by the way does not mean I am against what HoT brought to the game, it's just that this particular argument is flawed.

    It could also be that players aren't buying gems in the same quantities now because gold farming has become so much easier and lucrative.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    i know im not representative anymore, but i was, when they still HAD all those millions of happy players

    No.
    I'm sure most of the "millions" could manage to do dailies, didn't have some weird issue with using the TP, enjoyed a game with an open free respec system and didn't struggle with basic combat like you claim to.

    i have only seen ONE mmo where millions were prepared to do dailies, and that was wow back in the happy days. when you start doing dailies, youre not casual anymore,
    you are HOOKED

    The crowd of people nuking down mobs in starter zones on "event completer" nights proves you very wrong.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    Core sold well due to over-hype. How much revenue did core lose after a single quarter? This shows how many players -stayed- playing the game after they tried it (hint: not many compared to overall sales)

    This is an unsupported claim given the buy to play business model. You have no way to know whether the decline in Q3 2013 from the all-time high in Q4 2012 (which by the way was the quarter after the game's release quarter) was due to players leaving. A much more likely explanation is that most who were going to buy the game had already bought it by the end of 2012.

    This by the way does not mean I am against what HoT brought to the game, it's just that this particular argument is flawed.

    The game was released near the end of Q3 2012 so it was natural for the bulk of sales to be on Q4 2012. By the way you bring an interesting argument, the lack of revenue after a release quarter not being because players left, I wonder how it will be taken when the "revenue after HOT" is discussed again on these forums.

    Just like every legitimate point that has been made on these boards that did not mesh with someone's narrative. FWIW, my belief about whether players left the game due to HoT was that if they did it was more about the "slighted veteran player" perception and the "lack of content for the price" perception than it was about the "difficulty" perception.

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    It could also be that players aren't buying gems in the same quantities now because gold farming has become so much easier and lucrative.

    I was talking about 2013, and I don't remember it being anywhere near as easy back then, before Ascended crafting created a materials demand.

    It's an interesting point, though, worth further comment as far as now goes. We know the current rate and past rates. For instance, the exchange rate in January, 20013 for 100 gems was about 1.77 gold. At the end of July, 2020, it was over 35 gold per 100. We have also been told that every gem obtained by gold was bought by someone else who paid cash. Also, we know that if more gold is put into the exchange, the ratio goes up in favor of gems, and vice versa.

    We can see that the ratios reach points of relative stability during periods when neither the gem store nor the game offer highly desirable items that cost either gems or gold. Then one or the other spikes when such an item is added. The biggest spike in the gems to gold ratio in the last five years was when PoF dropped and it cost 250 gold to get the griffon mount.

    What we don't know is the volume of exchange use. That said, the common perception on the forums is that more players are pumping gold into the exchange now because it's easier to get gold. It also seems to be a common perception that this costs ANet money. However, if more players are buying gems with gold, that could mean more revenue for ANet in gem sales, especially if the higher gold-to-gems ratio entices players to buy gems to get gold.

    The real question, though, is how many of the players who get the gems they want via gold would spend cash if the exchange did not exist? Color me cynical if you will, but I look at the percentage who buy in F2P game stores and think a lot of them (maybe most) would not. After all, while GW2 is B2P for the XPac's, once you've bought them, playing is free.

    ANet revenue side issue to HoT discussion

    Interestingly enough, I see that GW2 revenue produced in Q2 2020 increased by over 3 billion Korean Won over G1 2020. That's a spike of over $2.5m.

    https://kr.ncsoft.com/en/ir/irArchive/earningsRelease.do

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You're triggered. Tons of players love HoT. Sorry you hate it with such passion, but the fact is you are not representative of the average player and the core game was never remotely as popular as you seem to think it was.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    What we don't know is the volume of exchange use. That said, the common perception on the forums is that more players are pumping gold into the exchange now because it's easier to get gold. It also seems to be a common perception that this costs ANet money. However, if more players are buying gems with gold, that could mean more revenue for ANet in gem sales, especially if the higher gold-to-gems ratio entices players to buy gems to get gold.

    Indeed. And about the idea of buying gems with gold costing Anet money, there is another reason why that's false:

    As a quick aside. Gems in the currency exchange are finite. You may buy gems with real money to your hearts content, but if you don’t put any of them gems into the currency exchange the currency exchange’s stock of gems never changes.

    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/bltc/So-much-for-the-bag-bank-slot-sale/page/2#post1491917

    This means, no matter what happens to the exchange, getting lower or higher, it doesn't mean much about buying items with cash, instead it means players don't buy gems and then exchange them for gold as much as they buy gems with their gold.

  • @Croc.1978 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    Maybe they could mention the increase in difficulty in HoT expansion content and add some tips and strategies in the new player guide, so players are aware before entering. Might also be useful to mention that mounts can be unlocked account wide by doing the PoF expansion content first.

    What they should have done IMO:

    Create kind of a Pact "boot camp" for jungle warfare in Silverwastes that players have to pass before they are allowed to enter VB (possibly as part of the personal story):

    "Commander, we have managed to capture some Mordrem and wildlife from the Maguuma jungle. We use them to familiarize our troops with the threads that await us there." Players would then get pitched into 1-on-1 fights against some typical Maguuma opponents, for instance:

    • fight a Mordrem sniper without getting hit by his charged shot
    • fight a rolling devil by breaking its defiance bar
    • fight a smokescale where they have to move out of the smoke screen
    • fight a Mordrem cavalier without getting knocked down, etc ...

    This is an awesome idea. I'm not one of the players that ever needed this, but just knowing these things would help so many folks. Every time I take someone new through HoT on one of my one-man HP trains, I end up lecturing folks on precisely these sorts of things.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    You're triggered. Tons of players love HoT. Sorry you hate it with such passion, but the fact is you are not representative of the average player and the core game was never remotely as popular as you seem to think it was.

    if the core game was that bad, it wouldnt had sold roughly a mio times every year. hot only sold around 1.5 mio times TOTAL.
    if TONS of players loved it, you can bet that they would had made MORE like it. a good mmo is like a house, if the foundation is flawed, its never gonna
    work out.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    i know im not representative anymore, but i was, when they still HAD all those millions of happy players

    No.
    I'm sure most of the "millions" could manage to do dailies, didn't have some weird issue with using the TP, enjoyed a game with an open free respec system and didn't struggle with basic combat like you claim to.

    i have only seen ONE mmo where millions were prepared to do dailies, and that was wow back in the happy days. when you start doing dailies, youre not casual anymore,
    you are HOOKED

    The crowd of people nuking down mobs in starter zones on "event completer" nights proves you very wrong.

    lool, so they have MILLIONS of players there? okay, have fun with that then. if that was true, i doubt thay have had to lay all those people of

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @Croc.1978 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    Maybe they could mention the increase in difficulty in HoT expansion content and add some tips and strategies in the new player guide, so players are aware before entering. Might also be useful to mention that mounts can be unlocked account wide by doing the PoF expansion content first.

    What they should have done IMO:

    Create kind of a Pact "boot camp" for jungle warfare in Silverwastes that players have to pass before they are allowed to enter VB (possibly as part of the personal story):

    "Commander, we have managed to capture some Mordrem and wildlife from the Maguuma jungle. We use them to familiarize our troops with the threads that await us there." Players would then get pitched into 1-on-1 fights against some typical Maguuma opponents, for instance:

    • fight a Mordrem sniper without getting hit by his charged shot
    • fight a rolling devil by breaking its defiance bar
    • fight a smokescale where they have to move out of the smoke screen
    • fight a Mordrem cavalier without getting knocked down, etc ...

    This is an awesome idea. I'm not one of the players that ever needed this, but just knowing these things would help so many folks. Every time I take someone new through HoT on one of my one-man HP trains, I end up lecturing folks on precisely these sorts of things.

    "commander, our soldiers are deserting, because we rearm the prisoners, they had just risked their lifes to capture"
    from a gaming perspective it would make sense, but it wouldnt make any sense at all from a logical perspective
    when enemies are so dangerous, there usually ARE no prisoners. and any soldier would KILL anyone, who is trying to help the enemies

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    GW2 was SOLD with the PROMISE of a no grind policy. if you dont see the problem there...

    Read this as you misinterpreted the meaning behind their statement of "no grind" and continue to do so

    Hey folks,

    I just want to take a second to address this topic, because it’s something we state as one of our key philosophies – but don’t often clarify exactly what we mean we say it. And because everyone and their mother has their own unique interpretation of what grind can mean, it’s very simple for this to feel like we’re not following our own guidelines when we build and implement content.

    When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

    So what exactly does that mean:

    • The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

    • Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.

    There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category, though we’ll be doing work in HOT to make this much less the case. We feel these are optional choices players don’t need to do, but can if they want, and because they are optional are acceptable within our statement that “Gw2 doesn’t make you grind to have the best gear/stats”. That doesn’t mean we can’t make those activities more fun as well, but when we say “no grind philosophy” we’re not including optional things you can do, but don’t need to do, in our definition.

    Hope that helps a bit, that’s our philosophy and definition we’re going by when we make those statements. They may not align to your definition of grind, and that’s ok – we’re fine with that! It’s just important you know what we mean when we make that statement so you can make decisions about how you view Gw2 and judge us by our actions/words.

    Thanks again for being so passionate about this topic and the game which ever side of the discussion you fall on. It’s something incredibly important to modern MMO’s and gamers in general, and we truly appreciate the dialogue you all are having on topics like this. It’s what makes better games for all of us.

    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273

    what is your point? are you trying to imply, that runes and sigils arent gear? or, that they dont improve my stats?

    or that i dont have to GRIND to get them?

  • @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    GW2 was SOLD with the PROMISE of a no grind policy. if you dont see the problem there...

    Read this as you misinterpreted the meaning behind their statement of "no grind" and continue to do so

    Hey folks,

    I just want to take a second to address this topic, because it’s something we state as one of our key philosophies – but don’t often clarify exactly what we mean we say it. And because everyone and their mother has their own unique interpretation of what grind can mean, it’s very simple for this to feel like we’re not following our own guidelines when we build and implement content.

    When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

    So what exactly does that mean:

    • The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

    • Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.

    There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category, though we’ll be doing work in HOT to make this much less the case. We feel these are optional choices players don’t need to do, but can if they want, and because they are optional are acceptable within our statement that “Gw2 doesn’t make you grind to have the best gear/stats”. That doesn’t mean we can’t make those activities more fun as well, but when we say “no grind philosophy” we’re not including optional things you can do, but don’t need to do, in our definition.

    Hope that helps a bit, that’s our philosophy and definition we’re going by when we make those statements. They may not align to your definition of grind, and that’s ok – we’re fine with that! It’s just important you know what we mean when we make that statement so you can make decisions about how you view Gw2 and judge us by our actions/words.

    Thanks again for being so passionate about this topic and the game which ever side of the discussion you fall on. It’s something incredibly important to modern MMO’s and gamers in general, and we truly appreciate the dialogue you all are having on topics like this. It’s what makes better games for all of us.

    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273

    what is your point? are you trying to imply, that runes and sigils arent gear? or, that they dont improve my stats?

    or that i dont have to GRIND to get them?

    There is gear with runes on them and those are cheaper than crafted i think medium is nika, devona for heavy and light was maybe zheds i think

  • Despond.2174Despond.2174 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2020

    My best memories were venturing into HoT for the first time. The expansion after was ok, but with mounts, nerfed mobs it didn't have that epic punch - plus the maps were more linear in levels. Only having gliding, trying to find the mastery points, it felt dangerous and epic. Now I just soar through the skies on my mounts lol.

    Just make sure you're using a decent build, it doesn't have to be EXACTLY the same as a meta, but it needs to have some sensible synergy with armor, weapons, runes/sigils and talents.

    You definitely want to invest some part of your gear/build into sustain, glass cannon can work but you would have to play perfectly.

    That's really all there is to it, most profs can nearly solo every champion point as well. But if you're struggling there are always groups, HP trains in the LFG.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    if the core game was that bad, it wouldnt had sold roughly a mio times every year. hot only sold around 1.5 mio times TOTAL.

    If the core game wasn't bad they wouldn't need expansions. But it wasn't doing very well.
    Also, you are still missing the fact that the game went free to play shortly before the launch of HOT. If core was such a good deal then more players would buy the expansions, but apparently it wasn't good enough to force conversions as it send players away before they even passed the tutorial.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    lool, so they have MILLIONS of players there? okay, have fun with that then. if that was true, i doubt thay have had to lay all those people of

    Another uninformed comment, I guess should be expected. The layoffs didn't happen because of Guild Wars 2 performance, but because the "unreleased" projects weren't deemed profitable by NCSoft. It was an issue with Arenanet as a company and projects we'll never get to see, and not about the game. As for your million comment I need to remind you that the game never had millions of players.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    You're triggered. Tons of players love HoT. Sorry you hate it with such passion, but the fact is you are not representative of the average player and the core game was never remotely as popular as you seem to think it was.

    if the core game was that bad, it wouldnt had sold roughly a mio times every year. hot only sold around 1.5 mio times TOTAL.
    if TONS of players loved it, you can bet that they would had made MORE like it. a good mmo is like a house, if the foundation is flawed, its never gonna
    work out.

    Exactly. The core game was flawed, so they made it better. And here we are. If only they hadn't made the mistake of making those boring PoF maps by listening to people like you who hated HoT, we'd have a great game! Oh well. At least the other features from PoF were good.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rokeb.3815 said:
    I am also a 'casual' player, I've recently returned to GW2. I did buy it shortly after launched, but my first character was an engineer and I didn't every figure out what I was doing so ending up giving up.

    A lot of the veteran players commenting have completely forgotten what it like for newer players.

    Yes, HoT is MUCH harder than the core game that you've likely just come from. Core Tyria is no where near as punishing for small mistakes. HoT forces you to become much more of a 'twitch' player - as positioning and dodging are suddenly much more important (I'm looking at you Mordrem Snipers! )

    The farcical complaint that 'HoT isn't even hard with mounts!' is equally naive - so you have to skip the first expansion - start the second expansion and come back and THEN play the fist expansion? What kind of game play design is that?

    HoT is totally playable - even enjoyable eventually. However, in terms of game design - the leap from core Tyria to HoT is a huge one - and often needlessly frustrating.
    Invisible 'gating' of areas - ie you need to have masteries to get to a certain point, making the hero points group content (sure vets can solo them with ease - but a potential new player??) If I didn't find a nice hero point train early on in HoT, I probably would have quit the game again.

    Don't even get me started on the last chapter of the story.. still trying to complete that. Casual players (like me) don't have HOURS to time to do one mission.
    From the wiki "The final fight with Mordremoth features mechanics that can lead to instant death and a reset of the long boss fight if you make an error"

    Spending hours on the same mission over and over with no progress isn't challenging or rewarding - IT's TEDIOUS. I swear if I get a server disconnect AGAIN during that fight I'm going to rage quit for sure.

    Casual players that solo are different from casual players who are in a guild, or at least thsoe that play with other people. Two people make hot a lot easier and three make it a whole lot easier. This is an MMO and even casual players can solo and learn.

    I do agree that the core open world didn't prepare people for HoT. But core also had dungeons and fractals were around for years, and some casual players did learn that content, and if you did, well the jump wasn't that much.

    In fact, if you'd done both Season 2 and Season 2 achievements, some of that stuff was really hard as well. Saying I didn't really play a portion of the content and only played in open world so the expansion is too hard is sort of misdirection.

    I would agree with the complain that there should have been an open world ramp up to HoT and the Silverwastes and Dry Top were supposed to be that ramp. They are hard...if you try to solo everything. But if you learn to use the LFG tool and look for an active map, particularly in the Silverwastes, they're much much easier. HoT is definiteliy hard solo. Soloing is a choice.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    You're triggered. Tons of players love HoT. Sorry you hate it with such passion, but the fact is you are not representative of the average player and the core game was never remotely as popular as you seem to think it was.

    if the core game was that bad, it wouldnt had sold roughly a mio times every year. hot only sold around 1.5 mio times TOTAL.
    if TONS of players loved it, you can bet that they would had made MORE like it. a good mmo is like a house, if the foundation is flawed, its never gonna
    work out.

    Exactly. The core game was flawed, so they made it better. And here we are. If only they hadn't made the mistake of making those boring PoF maps by listening to people like you who hated HoT, we'd have a great game! Oh well. At least the other features from PoF were good.

    I don't see that as a mistake. I see it as Anet listening to their customers and analyzing their data.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    lool, so they have MILLIONS of players there? okay, have fun with that then. if that was true, i doubt thay have had to lay all those people of

    Another uninformed comment, I guess should be expected. The layoffs didn't happen because of Guild Wars 2 performance, but because the "unreleased" projects weren't deemed profitable by NCSoft. It was an issue with Arenanet as a company and projects we'll never get to see, and not about the game. As for your million comment I need to remind you that the game never had millions of players.

    On top of that the layoffs happened after pof was released, an expac which was closer to core in difficulty

  • @battledrone.8315 said:

    "commander, our soldiers are deserting, because we rearm the prisoners, they had just risked their lifes to capture"
    from a gaming perspective it would make sense, but it wouldnt make any sense at all from a logical perspective
    when enemies are so dangerous, there usually ARE no prisoners. and any soldier would KILL anyone, who is trying to help the enemies

    Eh, it would be super easy to circumvent this. The cheap and easy way out would be to have an asura work up some cop-out magitech simulator to cover all the combat types.

    The other explanation would be that the prisoners are held securely and nobody has access to them in their armed state aside from the Commander. The rank and file soldiers would not be thrown against them, and security would be sensible (i.e. there wouldn't be armed Moredrem Snipers inside a flimsy cage that they can just fire at people from).

    Also, why are you even here? Go play SWTOR already. I might reinstall it myself, it's been a while. I'm personally a huge fan of GSF there, it's one of the single most skill-balanced forms of pvp I've seen in any game.

  • Croc.1978Croc.1978 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    I would agree with the complain that there should have been an open world ramp up to HoT and the Silverwastes and Dry Top were supposed to be that ramp. They are hard...if you try to solo everything. But if you learn to use the LFG tool and look for an active map, particularly in the Silverwastes, they're much much easier. HoT is definiteliy hard solo. Soloing is a choice.

    I guess the problem with Silverwastes and Dry Top as preparation for HoT is:

    • In SW you indeed fight many of the Mordrem foes that you will encounter later in the jungle. But, since that part of SW is a rather small area filled with group events, players almost always have other people around to help each other out (or they are even doing RIBA alongside a full squad). Then they wander into the 3-story green hell that is Verdant Brink and sooner or later find themselves all alone in a very hostile environment. Surrounded by dangerous mixed groups of Mordrem or Hylek, and nasty wildlife that's out to eat them alive. Kinda like Orr was at release, but even harder.
    • Dry Top is something completely different. The trash mobs there are pretty tame and have nothing to do with the jungle theme.