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HoT = Dark Souls ? Casual Gamer perspective.

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  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Healix.5819 said:
    It'd just be the same story. The core game was originally at a difficulty similar to HoT, but was severely nerfed during the first beta for obvious reasons.

    The core game never had any kind of difficulty. Mobs in core are giant HP sponges that rarely attack the player to keep them awake. The only thing they nerfed was the story, as some story mobs had inflated health pools and dealt high damage, so players that had no idea how to avoid those slow attacks got killed and complained.

    i still remember seeing dead players around moas, and the raging in chat. big bird got me once too...

    That's one of the problems with the combat in this game I guess, it puts players to sleep with how easy it is and they can't side step a well telegraphed, very very slow attack. I guess the combat dulls the reaction time of players to such a level that they can't actually play the game. What I don't understand though is that the moa attack doesn't do any damage (and never did) so it's anyone's guess WHY anyone would die from it, but if you experienced dead players and died by an attack that doesn't do any damage, I guess I will have to believe you. Like anything else you've typed in this thread with nothing to back it up...

    why should an ordinary mob have a special attack like this? it isnt a boss, and it doesnt drop any special loot
    maybe it was to set them up as hunter pets, they are surprisingly tanky
    and easy SELLS, hardcore not so much. problem is, that you have to make more easy content to KEEP them

    This isn't a cellphone game that can get by on re-releasing the same content in a different wrapper. MMOs succeed by providing an experience enjoyable to a wide variety of interests. Thus "easy" does not sell. Neither does "hard". Both types of content (and everything in between!) are necessary.

    I think part of the problem here is one of perception. You are an outlier, but you think you are dead-center on the bell curve and that designing the game to your particular tastes would bring back what you consider GW2 at its best. You refuse to accept the reality that the core game did not perform well. It sold a lot of copies at launch, but was rather quickly abandoned due to no endgame and nothing to keep players willing to invest time and money interested in doing so. These are things you don't care about, but are absolutely necessary to the continued health of the game.

  • sorudo.9054sorudo.9054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i am as casual as a casual player can get, i seriously hate anything forced team based, never PvP in any shape or size and don't even bother grinding for anything legendary.
    yet i get trough HoT quite easily, sure ill die against to many mobs at ones but i did the story solo so that counts for something.

    the truth is harsh, my opinions are too.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2020

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Healix.5819 said:
    It'd just be the same story. The core game was originally at a difficulty similar to HoT, but was severely nerfed during the first beta for obvious reasons.

    The core game never had any kind of difficulty. Mobs in core are giant HP sponges that rarely attack the player to keep them awake. The only thing they nerfed was the story, as some story mobs had inflated health pools and dealt high damage, so players that had no idea how to avoid those slow attacks got killed and complained.

    i still remember seeing dead players around moas, and the raging in chat. big bird got me once too...

    That's one of the problems with the combat in this game I guess, it puts players to sleep with how easy it is and they can't side step a well telegraphed, very very slow attack. I guess the combat dulls the reaction time of players to such a level that they can't actually play the game. What I don't understand though is that the moa attack doesn't do any damage (and never did) so it's anyone's guess WHY anyone would die from it, but if you experienced dead players and died by an attack that doesn't do any damage, I guess I will have to believe you. Like anything else you've typed in this thread with nothing to back it up...

    why should an ordinary mob have a special attack like this? it isnt a boss, and it doesnt drop any special loot
    maybe it was to set them up as hunter pets, they are surprisingly tanky
    and easy SELLS, hardcore not so much. problem is, that you have to make more easy content to KEEP them

    This isn't a cellphone game that can get by on re-releasing the same content in a different wrapper. MMOs succeed by providing an experience enjoyable to a wide variety of interests. Thus "easy" does not sell. Neither does "hard". Both types of content (and everything in between!) are necessary.

    I think part of the problem here is one of perception. You are an outlier, but you think you are dead-center on the bell curve and that designing the game to your particular tastes would bring back what you consider GW2 at its best. You refuse to accept the reality that the core game did not perform well. It sold a lot of copies at launch, but was rather quickly abandoned due to no endgame and nothing to keep players willing to invest time and money interested in doing so. These are things you don't care about, but are absolutely necessary to the continued health of the game.

    anyone who goes to a NEW mmo for END GAME content clearly dont know much about the business, you are lucky if the game even WORKS
    "core game didnt perform well"...how many mmos do we have, where the core game did BETTER?
    i only know of two ...wow and swtor
    one was made by BLIZZARD, when they were at the top of their performance....cant beat that
    the other was built on one of the BIGGEST IPs in modern history, and it collapsed like a card house
    core game performed as well, as it COULD
    and i always pay for my entertainment too, but i expect to get some FUN in return

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Healix.5819 said:
    It'd just be the same story. The core game was originally at a difficulty similar to HoT, but was severely nerfed during the first beta for obvious reasons.

    The core game never had any kind of difficulty. Mobs in core are giant HP sponges that rarely attack the player to keep them awake. The only thing they nerfed was the story, as some story mobs had inflated health pools and dealt high damage, so players that had no idea how to avoid those slow attacks got killed and complained.

    i still remember seeing dead players around moas, and the raging in chat. big bird got me once too...

    That's one of the problems with the combat in this game I guess, it puts players to sleep with how easy it is and they can't side step a well telegraphed, very very slow attack. I guess the combat dulls the reaction time of players to such a level that they can't actually play the game. What I don't understand though is that the moa attack doesn't do any damage (and never did) so it's anyone's guess WHY anyone would die from it, but if you experienced dead players and died by an attack that doesn't do any damage, I guess I will have to believe you. Like anything else you've typed in this thread with nothing to back it up...

    why should an ordinary mob have a special attack like this? it isnt a boss, and it doesnt drop any special loot
    maybe it was to set them up as hunter pets, they are surprisingly tanky
    and easy SELLS, hardcore not so much. problem is, that you have to make more easy content to KEEP them

    Why not remove mobs abillity to attack so it gets easier and more fun for the casual players

    they already have "feed the bear cubs", "entertaining cows" etc, and i think they are great.
    simply because they break the standard hackn slash rythm, and gives you time to enjoy the beautiful maps
    i can see why some people would HATE them though, but you dont HAVE to do them at all
    and considering how much the hardcores are using the skyscale, i would take a long look in the mirror...

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Healix.5819 said:
    It'd just be the same story. The core game was originally at a difficulty similar to HoT, but was severely nerfed during the first beta for obvious reasons.

    The core game never had any kind of difficulty. Mobs in core are giant HP sponges that rarely attack the player to keep them awake. The only thing they nerfed was the story, as some story mobs had inflated health pools and dealt high damage, so players that had no idea how to avoid those slow attacks got killed and complained.

    i still remember seeing dead players around moas, and the raging in chat. big bird got me once too...

    That's one of the problems with the combat in this game I guess, it puts players to sleep with how easy it is and they can't side step a well telegraphed, very very slow attack. I guess the combat dulls the reaction time of players to such a level that they can't actually play the game. What I don't understand though is that the moa attack doesn't do any damage (and never did) so it's anyone's guess WHY anyone would die from it, but if you experienced dead players and died by an attack that doesn't do any damage, I guess I will have to believe you. Like anything else you've typed in this thread with nothing to back it up...

    why should an ordinary mob have a special attack like this? it isnt a boss, and it doesnt drop any special loot
    maybe it was to set them up as hunter pets, they are surprisingly tanky
    and easy SELLS, hardcore not so much. problem is, that you have to make more easy content to KEEP them

    Why not remove mobs abillity to attack so it gets easier and more fun for the casual players

    they already have "feed the bear cubs", "entertaining cows" etc, and i think they are great.
    simply because they break the standard hackn slash rythm, and gives you time to enjoy the beautiful maps
    i can see why some people would HATE them though, but you dont HAVE to do them at all
    and considering how much the hardcores are using the skyscale, i would take a long look in the mirror...

    And also remove all mounts and dodge to then. And ofc every piece of amor and lvling so its as easy as it can be. Instead of combat we can have a cutscene in story

  • @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Healix.5819 said:
    It'd just be the same story. The core game was originally at a difficulty similar to HoT, but was severely nerfed during the first beta for obvious reasons.

    The core game never had any kind of difficulty. Mobs in core are giant HP sponges that rarely attack the player to keep them awake. The only thing they nerfed was the story, as some story mobs had inflated health pools and dealt high damage, so players that had no idea how to avoid those slow attacks got killed and complained.

    i still remember seeing dead players around moas, and the raging in chat. big bird got me once too...

    That's one of the problems with the combat in this game I guess, it puts players to sleep with how easy it is and they can't side step a well telegraphed, very very slow attack. I guess the combat dulls the reaction time of players to such a level that they can't actually play the game. What I don't understand though is that the moa attack doesn't do any damage (and never did) so it's anyone's guess WHY anyone would die from it, but if you experienced dead players and died by an attack that doesn't do any damage, I guess I will have to believe you. Like anything else you've typed in this thread with nothing to back it up...

    why should an ordinary mob have a special attack like this? it isnt a boss, and it doesnt drop any special loot
    maybe it was to set them up as hunter pets, they are surprisingly tanky
    and easy SELLS, hardcore not so much. problem is, that you have to make more easy content to KEEP them

    Why not remove mobs abillity to attack so it gets easier and more fun for the casual players

    they already have "feed the bear cubs", "entertaining cows" etc, and i think they are great.
    simply because they break the standard hackn slash rythm, and gives you time to enjoy the beautiful maps
    i can see why some people would HATE them though, but you dont HAVE to do them at all
    and considering how much the hardcores are using the skyscale, i would take a long look in the mirror...

    You consider anyone with masteries hardcore. Ppl explain but you arent here to listen you just want ppl to agree that gw2 need to be so easy you cant die. Try listen reason hot got this was ppl left for nothing in game felt like a threat in core before hot you facetanked everything with auto attacks it was lack of things to do once you finished everything. There was little need of interacting with others. So yes ppl left due to it got boring and core went f2p. You did not attempt to adapt ot learn to even dodge if you spent energy on actually looking. You compare hot to dark souls yeah hot is way easier. There is clear indicators in enemies but as you dont want to use any of the tools anet gave you day 1 like dodges your other 8 skills, gear wich can be paid for with karma or dungeon tokens. You want game to be like queensdale easy mindless drone and no players left for once story is done they will only login to get daily. But you will just shout hardcore at me anyway and elitist farmer and such for non of these answers fits the narrative you prefer.

  • I started GW2 around PoF launch and then went to HoT after finishing the main story. I find HoT zones to be some of the best designed in all the games I have played. The verticality of the maps and the little secrets they contain are amazing for exploration. The game difficulty was a little hard coming from PoF mobs but it was not an insurmountable issue, you just need to use stats with more survivability to kill monsters.

    I would be comfortable with HoT zones being buffed a little, its optional content anyway and the game could stand to have some harder open world content for those who would seek it.

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @itinerant.5081 said:
    I started GW2 around PoF launch and then went to HoT after finishing the main story. I find HoT zones to be some of the best designed in all the games I have played. The verticality of the maps and the little secrets they contain are amazing for exploration. The game difficulty was a little hard coming from PoF mobs but it was not an insurmountable issue, you just need to use stats with more survivability to kill monsters.

    I would be comfortable with HoT zones being buffed a little, its optional content anyway and the game could stand to have some harder open world content for those who would seek it.

    Hot should be buffed? Hmm I feel they already have the most hard hitting foes in the game?

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Healix.5819 said:
    It'd just be the same story. The core game was originally at a difficulty similar to HoT, but was severely nerfed during the first beta for obvious reasons.

    The core game never had any kind of difficulty. Mobs in core are giant HP sponges that rarely attack the player to keep them awake. The only thing they nerfed was the story, as some story mobs had inflated health pools and dealt high damage, so players that had no idea how to avoid those slow attacks got killed and complained.

    i still remember seeing dead players around moas, and the raging in chat. big bird got me once too...

    That's one of the problems with the combat in this game I guess, it puts players to sleep with how easy it is and they can't side step a well telegraphed, very very slow attack. I guess the combat dulls the reaction time of players to such a level that they can't actually play the game. What I don't understand though is that the moa attack doesn't do any damage (and never did) so it's anyone's guess WHY anyone would die from it, but if you experienced dead players and died by an attack that doesn't do any damage, I guess I will have to believe you. Like anything else you've typed in this thread with nothing to back it up...

    why should an ordinary mob have a special attack like this? it isnt a boss, and it doesnt drop any special loot
    maybe it was to set them up as hunter pets, they are surprisingly tanky
    and easy SELLS, hardcore not so much. problem is, that you have to make more easy content to KEEP them

    This isn't a cellphone game that can get by on re-releasing the same content in a different wrapper. MMOs succeed by providing an experience enjoyable to a wide variety of interests. Thus "easy" does not sell. Neither does "hard". Both types of content (and everything in between!) are necessary.

    I think part of the problem here is one of perception. You are an outlier, but you think you are dead-center on the bell curve and that designing the game to your particular tastes would bring back what you consider GW2 at its best. You refuse to accept the reality that the core game did not perform well. It sold a lot of copies at launch, but was rather quickly abandoned due to no endgame and nothing to keep players willing to invest time and money interested in doing so. These are things you don't care about, but are absolutely necessary to the continued health of the game.

    anyone who goes to a NEW mmo for END GAME content clearly dont know much about the business, you are lucky if the game even WORKS
    "core game didnt perform well"...how many mmos do we have, where the core game did BETTER?
    i only know of two ...wow and swtor
    one was made by BLIZZARD, when they were at the top of their performance....cant beat that
    the other was built on one of the BIGGEST IPs in modern history, and it collapsed like a card house
    core game performed as well, as it COULD
    and i always pay for my entertainment too, but i expect to get some FUN in return

    Capitalizing random words and blaming players for expecting something to do doesn't change the business model. MMOs make their money off of long-term players and not many people are willing to play the same, no-challenge game with no endgame for years. That's why the content you hate was developed and why this game still survives.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Healix.5819 said:
    It'd just be the same story. The core game was originally at a difficulty similar to HoT, but was severely nerfed during the first beta for obvious reasons.

    The core game never had any kind of difficulty. Mobs in core are giant HP sponges that rarely attack the player to keep them awake. The only thing they nerfed was the story, as some story mobs had inflated health pools and dealt high damage, so players that had no idea how to avoid those slow attacks got killed and complained.

    i still remember seeing dead players around moas, and the raging in chat. big bird got me once too...

    That's one of the problems with the combat in this game I guess, it puts players to sleep with how easy it is and they can't side step a well telegraphed, very very slow attack. I guess the combat dulls the reaction time of players to such a level that they can't actually play the game. What I don't understand though is that the moa attack doesn't do any damage (and never did) so it's anyone's guess WHY anyone would die from it, but if you experienced dead players and died by an attack that doesn't do any damage, I guess I will have to believe you. Like anything else you've typed in this thread with nothing to back it up...

    why should an ordinary mob have a special attack like this? it isnt a boss, and it doesnt drop any special loot
    maybe it was to set them up as hunter pets, they are surprisingly tanky
    and easy SELLS, hardcore not so much. problem is, that you have to make more easy content to KEEP them

    Why not remove mobs abillity to attack so it gets easier and more fun for the casual players

    they already have "feed the bear cubs", "entertaining cows" etc, and i think they are great.
    simply because they break the standard hackn slash rythm, and gives you time to enjoy the beautiful maps
    i can see why some people would HATE them though, but you dont HAVE to do them at all
    and considering how much the hardcores are using the skyscale, i would take a long look in the mirror...

    You consider anyone with masteries hardcore. Ppl explain but you arent here to listen you just want ppl to agree that gw2 need to be so easy you cant die. Try listen reason hot got this was ppl left for nothing in game felt like a threat in core before hot you facetanked everything with auto attacks it was lack of things to do once you finished everything. There was little need of interacting with others. So yes ppl left due to it got boring and core went f2p. You did not attempt to adapt ot learn to even dodge if you spent energy on actually looking. You compare hot to dark souls yeah hot is way easier. There is clear indicators in enemies but as you dont want to use any of the tools anet gave you day 1 like dodges your other 8 skills, gear wich can be paid for with karma or dungeon tokens. You want game to be like queensdale easy mindless drone and no players left for once story is done they will only login to get daily. But you will just shout hardcore at me anyway and elitist farmer and such for non of these answers fits the narrative you prefer.

    nope, i have masteries too. and if "people" facetanked everything in core, i doubt they would had NERFED it.
    i know what dodging is. used sparingly, it is a fun mechanic too. but they use it way too much, making it it another grind mechanic.
    better gear would prolly give 10 %, i need way more than that, to play it
    never said the whole game should be queensdale either, i said that queensdale was the perfect way to START
    all mmos have a learning curve, and this thread is a comment on that curve
    not the first regarding hot, and it prolly wont be the last either

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Healix.5819 said:
    It'd just be the same story. The core game was originally at a difficulty similar to HoT, but was severely nerfed during the first beta for obvious reasons.

    The core game never had any kind of difficulty. Mobs in core are giant HP sponges that rarely attack the player to keep them awake. The only thing they nerfed was the story, as some story mobs had inflated health pools and dealt high damage, so players that had no idea how to avoid those slow attacks got killed and complained.

    i still remember seeing dead players around moas, and the raging in chat. big bird got me once too...

    That's one of the problems with the combat in this game I guess, it puts players to sleep with how easy it is and they can't side step a well telegraphed, very very slow attack. I guess the combat dulls the reaction time of players to such a level that they can't actually play the game. What I don't understand though is that the moa attack doesn't do any damage (and never did) so it's anyone's guess WHY anyone would die from it, but if you experienced dead players and died by an attack that doesn't do any damage, I guess I will have to believe you. Like anything else you've typed in this thread with nothing to back it up...

    why should an ordinary mob have a special attack like this? it isnt a boss, and it doesnt drop any special loot
    maybe it was to set them up as hunter pets, they are surprisingly tanky
    and easy SELLS, hardcore not so much. problem is, that you have to make more easy content to KEEP them

    This isn't a cellphone game that can get by on re-releasing the same content in a different wrapper. MMOs succeed by providing an experience enjoyable to a wide variety of interests. Thus "easy" does not sell. Neither does "hard". Both types of content (and everything in between!) are necessary.

    I think part of the problem here is one of perception. You are an outlier, but you think you are dead-center on the bell curve and that designing the game to your particular tastes would bring back what you consider GW2 at its best. You refuse to accept the reality that the core game did not perform well. It sold a lot of copies at launch, but was rather quickly abandoned due to no endgame and nothing to keep players willing to invest time and money interested in doing so. These are things you don't care about, but are absolutely necessary to the continued health of the game.

    anyone who goes to a NEW mmo for END GAME content clearly dont know much about the business, you are lucky if the game even WORKS
    "core game didnt perform well"...how many mmos do we have, where the core game did BETTER?
    i only know of two ...wow and swtor
    one was made by BLIZZARD, when they were at the top of their performance....cant beat that
    the other was built on one of the BIGGEST IPs in modern history, and it collapsed like a card house
    core game performed as well, as it COULD
    and i always pay for my entertainment too, but i expect to get some FUN in return

    Capitalizing random words and blaming players for expecting something to do doesn't change the business model. MMOs make their money off of long-term players and not many people are willing to play the same, no-challenge game with no endgame for years. That's why the content you hate was developed and why this game still survives.

    sooo, do even know where they get those "long term" players from? i have to ask, because you dont seem to know a lot about business
    think really hard about the answer...this is a tough one

    From the current population of players, naturally. But that isn't what you wanted to hear, is it? Doesn't really fit the narrative.

    Also, [email protected] you talking down to me about "business" when your idea of an expansion would have us chasing bears away from beehives simply because you don't enjoy combat. Do you really think that the game could have survived this long on what the core game offered? Of course you do! But like I said, you're an outlier. You just really have no idea.

    from the "current " population...so its a good idea to have MANY players , right? THATS why core is so casual.
    nope , all mmos need expansions to survive, but i would had made them closer the game they were supposed to expand

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Algreg.3629 said:
    git...

    May I humbly suggest you take into consideration improving yourself, like a lot of fine gentlefolk do? =)

    so, its not a product for the person, who actually PAID for it, its for the person they WANT you to be...got it
    this is a brilliant way to do business, there is NO way it can go wrong

    So, game designers should not expect players to get better at their game? I've certainly seen offerings like that, that bill themselves as "games." Farmville, for instance.

    The Wikipedia article on games says, "Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction. Games generally involve mental or physical stimulation, and often both. " The article also says, "Games are sometimes played purely for enjoyment..."

    The bottom line is that players who are looking to play purely for enjoyment and want little to no challenge are a different breed from gamers who want more stimulation and challenge. The question is, "Which group did ANet build this game for?"

    If you look at core GW2, especially now, it's easy to believe they intended to attract players who wanted a pastime in which they could power fantasy their way through content with little or no intent to better their play. However, if you also look at the ramp-up in difficulty since launch, like the Risen/Krait revamps, the Molten Alliance, Toxic Alliance, Aetherblades, Mordrem and then on to HoT, you can see a clear intent on the part of ANet to put a learning curve into the game.

    Was this a bad business decision, as you claim? It seems like it cost them your business. I've no doubt other people left for similar reasons, but neither of us can say how many versus how many have left because core did not stimulate them.

    So why make core easy and then ramp up? A lot of the intended audience for GW2 was players who had played other MMO's. In most of those games, combat is static, so it's reasonable for ANet to expect those players to try to face-tank mobs. Imagine such a player dropped immediately into HoT with no ramp-up trying to face tank a Mordrem Troll. It would not be pretty. So, while it looks like ANet wanted to attract players who played other MMO's, it's a stretch to think that thet thought their primary market to be players who had no interest in challenge.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • itinerant.5081itinerant.5081 Member
    edited August 26, 2020

    Yes, it should be buffed. I initially went PoF > Ascended Gear + optimization > HoT.

    On my new account I only have HoT so I didn't have mounts and any ascended gear so I could realize immediately what PoF does to HoT in terms of enabling players to ignore or tank through HoT mobs. You are going into the Maguuma Jungle that is filled with nightmare monsters and poisons and stealth frogs, it is supposed to be hard. The game could use a small area that is buffed to the heavens to provide an area for the intermediate players.

    Hardcore players won't be affected since any open world mob wouldn't be as hard as raids or T4 fractals and casuals wouldn't even enter the place that is buffed but for the intermediate players it could be something they want. Not even entire map maybe but a small zone within the map? Like how the branded areas in PoF means another level of danger.

    The analogous zone would be Timeless Isle in World of Warcraft, entirely optional and new rewards and stuff but the monsters are quite a bit harder than usual.

    @aspirine.6852 said:

    @itinerant.5081 said:
    I started GW2 around PoF launch and then went to HoT after finishing the main story. I find HoT zones to be some of the best designed in all the games I have played. The verticality of the maps and the little secrets they contain are amazing for exploration. The game difficulty was a little hard coming from PoF mobs but it was not an insurmountable issue, you just need to use stats with more survivability to kill monsters.

    I would be comfortable with HoT zones being buffed a little, its optional content anyway and the game could stand to have some harder open world content for those who would seek it.

    Hot should be buffed? Hmm I feel they already have the most hard hitting foes in the game?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2020

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Algreg.3629 said:
    git...

    May I humbly suggest you take into consideration improving yourself, like a lot of fine gentlefolk do? =)

    so, its not a product for the person, who actually PAID for it, its for the person they WANT you to be...got it
    this is a brilliant way to do business, there is NO way it can go wrong

    So, game designers should not expect players to get better at their game? I've certainly seen offerings like that, that bill themselves as "games." Farmville, for instance.

    The Wikipedia article on games says, "Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction. Games generally involve mental or physical stimulation, and often both. " The article also says, "Games are sometimes played purely for enjoyment..."

    The bottom line is that players who are looking to play purely for enjoyment and want little to no challenge are a different breed from gamers who want more stimulation and challenge. The question is, "Which group did ANet build this game for?"

    If you look at core GW2, especially now, it's easy to believe they intended to attract players who wanted a pastime in which they could power fantasy their way through content with little or no intent to better their play. However, if you also look at the ramp-up in difficulty since launch, like the Risen/Krait revamps, the Molten Alliance, Toxic Alliance, Aetherblades, Mordrem and then on to HoT, you can see a clear intent on the part of ANet to put a learning curve into the game.

    Was this a bad business decision, as you claim? It seems like it cost them your business. I've no doubt other people left for similar reasons, but neither of us can say how many versus how many have left because core did not stimulate them.

    So why make core easy and then ramp up? A lot of the intended audience for GW2 was players who had played other MMO's. In most of those games, combat is static, so it's reasonable for ANet to expect those players to try to face-tank mobs. Imagine such a player dropped immediately into HoT with no ramp-up trying to face tank a Mordrem Troll. It would not be pretty. So, while it looks like ANet wanted to attract players who played other MMO's, it's a stretch to think that thought their primary market to be players who had no interest in challenge.

    Well we can say with some decree of certainty that way more players left because they didn't like Core, than left because they didn't like HOT, despite @battledrone.8315 claims. And by that I mean checking the achievement leaderboards where 60% of the accounts have under 600 AP, meaning they left a long time before reaching the mid level point of the game, let alone expansion content.

    Edit: and if 600 is too high for some, 50% have under 300 AP

  • @AdamWarlord.6782 said:
    Edit: This post is to voice a percentage of player base's opinion(may it be a minority, majority, or even just me) on HoT including mine. I have nothing less than love for the game Devs and the community. I have been playing for 2-3 years atleast, and have played some GW1 back in the day. Im not just throwing shade on the HoT content. ** I am trying to voice my opinion and my experience in a straightforward manner. **

    Alright, so i just finished up my online classes and studies for my upcoming third year exams and I sit to do my daily completion of a legendary, going on for weeks now. As you can understand, i don't have more than maybe 2-3 hours to play at best. Completion of Eternity and other core legendary weapons took time, but atleast it was doable without frustration and having "fun". When it comes to HoT, I don't know what i am even doing. I am trying to go around the map 90% of the time trying not to die because the floor minion mobs are so OVERPOWERED. I have been playing the game for 2 years, and i have avoided HoT every chance i got because of the same exact reasons i am about to mention.

    1. Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.
    2. Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.
    3. Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.
    4. Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.
    5. Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.
    6. I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.
    7. WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??
    8. I actually start to rage(sorry for caps above) playing guild wars 2, which is 90% of the time fun, except when i play HoT.
    9. And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    I also get why they would be reluctant to nerf the mobs more and bring some player driven balance , but atleast 50% if not more gamers are casual on gw2 and want to play not to rage but to have a good time, i don't mind taking months to get my legendary, BUT ATLEAST let the process be fun. I don't want to get grabbed by a rip off stegosaurus while i'm on my raptor and get 2 shot with 22k health. Any balance, related to player level, or player-online time based balance on mobs, a bit more lighting in HoT maps, a bit more of anything. I get HoT is a very old expansion and that Cantha is coming. But atleast respect your players who are trying their hardest to stick to the game and trying to voice their opinions for a change. And of-course please try providing it. Alright! Back to returning to a checkpoint which takes me halfway across the map from the hero point i just died on, and try to re attempt it with broken armor, because there is no repair station nearby, and i don't have a million repair canisters because i'm a casual.

    Edit: I realized they have nerfed the difficulty once, i can't imagine what the mobs were like.
    Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

    1) light up in settings of game and/or PC screen
    2) the lags are not that bad outside of the big metas for me, also only play on a mid-class laptop with trash web
    3) some of them are, that is because they are meant to be killed in groups! it is called Guild Wars, most players play way to standalone tbh. the guild aspect coulda been waaaay bigger written tbh
    4) + 5) just do the masteries later. it's quite chill to obtain the necesary ones, for the harder to get ones u need more experience and if possible a flying mount from PoF expansion ;P mounts overall make the area way more chill
    6) as said -> group play; plus if ur really good at your class u can solo that stuff, but it's often not even worth to do that
    7) 22k isn't that baby life pool, chill :9
    8) lol, try WvW
    9) WvW is rather the dark souls u seek, Hot expansion is still more kitten. while agreed, first time entering it, the world there feels a bit like "letmeouttahere dere monsters"

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @itinerant.5081 said:
    Yes, it should be buffed. I initially went PoF > Ascended Gear + optimization > HoT.

    On my new account I only have HoT so I didn't have mounts and any ascended gear so I could realize immediately what PoF does to HoT in terms of enabling players to ignore or tank through HoT mobs. You are going into the Maguuma Jungle that is filled with nightmare monsters and poisons and stealth frogs, it is supposed to be hard. The game could use a small area that is buffed to the heavens to provide an area for the intermediate players.

    Hardcore players won't be affected since any open world mob wouldn't be as hard as raids or T4 fractals and casuals wouldn't even enter the place that is buffed but for the intermediate players it could be something they want. Not even entire map maybe but a small zone within the map? Like how the branded areas in PoF means another level of danger.

    The analogous zone would be Timeless Isle in World of Warcraft, entirely optional and new rewards and stuff but the monsters are quite a bit harder than usual.

    @aspirine.6852 said:

    @itinerant.5081 said:
    I started GW2 around PoF launch and then went to HoT after finishing the main story. I find HoT zones to be some of the best designed in all the games I have played. The verticality of the maps and the little secrets they contain are amazing for exploration. The game difficulty was a little hard coming from PoF mobs but it was not an insurmountable issue, you just need to use stats with more survivability to kill monsters.

    I would be comfortable with HoT zones being buffed a little, its optional content anyway and the game could stand to have some harder open world content for those who would seek it.

    Hot should be buffed? Hmm I feel they already have the most hard hitting foes in the game?

    There is one little mistake in your story. Fractals and raids are not solo. A lot of people walk in the maguuma solo.

  • One of the big problems with HoT is that it is such a departure from the core game. I hated it when I first played it. Then I went and did Path of Fire, got better at playing, better geared my characters, got elite specializations, and now I can go back to HoT and only get overwhelmed if I get sloppy about getting too many enemies on me.

    Having said that, I am now going through the game with my 14 yr old son, and we are trying to do things in story order, because, you know, story. I can see his frustration with a game that let him cakewalk through to 80 and now suddenly demands so much more. Not to mention because the lvl 80 process was so quick, he doesn't even have the currencies needed to get outfitted in decent stat exotics.

    I think it's pretty clear from how development changed after HoT that ArenaNet themselves realized they'd made some mistakes in difficulty, but how do you really change that without making HoT pointless?

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    HoT wasn’t so much of a departure for those that did LS2.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If Hero points are a problem just do a little bit of WvW and buy them out. Problem solved.

  • Algreg.3629Algreg.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Algreg.3629 said:
    git...

    May I humbly suggest you take into consideration improving yourself, like a lot of fine gentlefolk do? =)

    so, its not a product for the person, who actually PAID for it, its for the person they WANT you to be...got it
    this is a brilliant way to do business, there is NO way it can go wrong

    Players who enjoyed HOT also payed. Discussions about "what ifs" are completely pointless without deep data insights. I could argue as well POF maps are completely empty, just from anecdotal observation, could well be wrong about that. You keep arguing GW2 lost players, yeah, no kitten, I could argue that is the normal bleeding effect as saas-games age. The essence is, the game is not to your liking, and others, another part of the population enjoys HOT. Simple enough observation, why you keep turning these threads into personal crusades every time eludes me, but hey, I guess that counts as a casual endeavour. Also, your capslock seems randomly broken, maybe that is the reason you have such a hard time in game?

  • @Gibson.4036 said:
    One of the big problems with HoT is that it is such a departure from the core game. I hated it when I first played it. Then I went and did Path of Fire, got better at playing, better geared my characters, got elite specializations, and now I can go back to HoT and only get overwhelmed if I get sloppy about getting too many enemies on me.

    Having said that, I am now going through the game with my 14 yr old son, and we are trying to do things in story order, because, you know, story. I can see his frustration with a game that let him cakewalk through to 80 and now suddenly demands so much more. Not to mention because the lvl 80 process was so quick, he doesn't even have the currencies needed to get outfitted in decent stat exotics.

    I think it's pretty clear from how development changed after HoT that ArenaNet themselves realized they'd made some mistakes in difficulty, but how do you really change that without making HoT pointless?

    exotics are supereasy to farm. if you have condi-related classes, u even get a first set in Orr for just nothing more than karma, and i think in Wvw a cheap random set (knights stat or so) is buyable too for like 20 silver in sum...

    the real problem u adress correctly: most people don't learn the game, and avoid the Guilds a bit too much, which could teach them actually how to play. the skill rise by just walking some days with a experienced player of your class, maybe connected in voicechat via discord, is extreme. ;)

    outside of that, gear isn't that important, if you know when to press your skills, which weapons to use, which skill tree to use!

    my experience walking PoF storymode on my warrior-spellbreaker was: oof, died through the story, literally. felt superhard, a bit frustrating.

    now, after half an year with a bulky guildset spellbreaker: cakewalk, i can bathe in the mobs and for some reason even do damage. i have always cheap buffs to pop and know what skills to use when, chill time there.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    HoT wasn’t so much of a departure for those that did LS2.

    i believe that, did LS2 (if that is the one with all that white hand stuff, yes?) after PoF, and i think it would been really hard without having the skyclaw, HoT couldn't fear u out if u been through this before thaha.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    HoT wasn’t so much of a departure for those that did LS2.

    i believe that, did LS2 (if that is the one with all that white hand stuff, yes?) after PoF, and i think it would been really hard without having the skyclaw, HoT couldn't fear u out if u been through this before thaha.

    LS2 was Drytop and Silverwastes.

  • Juka.9103Juka.9103 Member ✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    Interesting... Let me preface my reply by saying: I hope you're not easily offended, and dont take my opinions and feedback personally or as a personal attack on you. We live in 2020, and the majority of people online get easily offended compared to when I was much younger... With that said, I'd like to address your points directly.

    I've played GW2 on and off, mostly casually for a little over a year, maybe a year and a half. With that, the last few "main" story things I need to finish are some living world episodes and the Icebrood saga. (Just wanted to provide a little context) I also run AB events regularly when I sit down to play, and I'm very comfortable in the HoT maps.

    Its very hard to see, hate the map design and how dark it is in 70% of the places.

    --- Yes, you're in a sudo tropical undergrowth. Turn your brightness up and wander around a little more. Almost all maps with any repeat point to them are designed to be discovered and learnt.

    Lags way too much on my mid end laptop.

    --- Maybe crank your settings down or look at an upgrade. Computer parts degrade with excessive heat, and laptops are notorious for lackluster thermal solutions. Just being real with you.

    Floor mobs are wayy too overpowered and feel like boss mobs.

    --- Some legendary mobs are legendary for a reason. They are mini "boss" mobs. They're meant to be tackled by experianced solo players or small groups.

    Hence because of the same reason above, VERY hard to level up the masteries.

    --- Learning HoT maps on a basic level will help you travel on foot or glider while avoiding most mobs you don't intend to come in contact with. Alternatively if you have the PoF expansion - I'd recommend doing the very first quest for the raptor mount to make traveling around HoT maps and others a little smoother and faster. It makes a quality of life difference but it's by no means "needed" to travel maps.

    Why do masteries you ask? Because there are wayy too many hero points and other aspects of the completion of HoT, which require doing them. Which sucks.

    --- You'll gain a lot of masteries passively by playing the HoT story. I'm not sure why this is a struggle as a reaper, I'm a little confused but you may not have an ideal "solo" build if this is a frustrating experiance. It shouldn't be easy, but it shouldn't be overly hard for you to manage these.

    I can't Solo 50% of the hero points, being a max reaper.

    --- Refer to previous point.

    WAIT, I NEED TO DO A ADRENALINE MASTERY TO DO A HERO POINT WHICH CONSUMES MY LIFE WHEN I EAT BACON? WHEN MY LIFE POOL IS 22k??

    --- Have a friend with a jackal use their dismount ability while you eat it, or make a forum post asking for assistance. The comminity is full of lovely people for the most part, and there are players who would love to help you for the 2 minutes ot takes. If you're in a guild ask in your guild.

    And due to the above reasons i mentioned above, I actually can feel better playing DARK SOULS than HoT.

    --- Adjust your thoughts and adjust your quality of life. They say ignorance is bliss for a reason. If you honestly think theres nothing you can do as a max reaper you're either not a max reaper or your build or playstyle is not up to par. HoT is definitely more of a challenge than the vanilla story and with it comes more things to learn about combat along with your combat build, and the way you tackle certain mobs. The internet is a wonderful thing - theres a plethora of opportunities to reach lit for help and advice, or search for solutions to problems in places like YouTube or forums like this.

    Hopefully my direct approach was slightly insightful or helpful.

  • @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

    exotics are supereasy to farm. if you have condi-related classes, u even get a first set in Orr for just nothing more than karma, and i think in Wvw a cheap random set (knights stat or so) is buyable too for like 20 silver in sum...

    the real problem u adress correctly: most people don't learn the game, and avoid the Guilds a bit too much, which could teach them actually how to play. the skill rise by just walking some days with a experienced player of your class, maybe connected in voicechat via discord, is extreme. ;)

    Back when I played in the first few years of the game, temple armor was my start into endgame. My son, however, didn't end up with nearly enough karma by the time he hit 80. We did outfit him in some knight's or soldiers (can't remember) stuff from the trading post, which made him appreciate how much gearing up a little can help. It gave him just enough of an edge that he feels like he can learn the game now, not just get frustrated from dying left and right.

    He went P/P Deadeye, and we're working on teaching him to kite, something the game didn't require from him at all on the ride to 80.

  • It seems like the design for HoT was supposed to make us feel some pain right out. The jungle is a pain to navigate, and then you earn updraft and jumping mushrooms, and stop tearing your hair out trying to get around Verdant Brink.

    I can see this as viable design. Get humbled by the game, then earn things that make you feel more powerful. The problem, again, is that isn't the way the core game is designed, so a newcomer to HoT doesn't necessarily have the hope that things will get better.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I quit when HoT was first released, it was absolutely the worst thing Anet had ever released open world wise. It was too much for me and i had played through most of season 1 and all of season 2. Then anet started season 3 and that got me back into the game and i eventually went back and finished HoT, it's STILL hard, but not as hard as it once was. Now I have all the masteries (icebrood saga included), HoT isn't too terrible nowadays, but i still don't venture there willingly because it wasn't designed correctly. season 3 onwards they've really got the balance right, but HoT is still not in a good place.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    I quit when HoT was first released, it was absolutely the worst thing Anet had ever released open world wise. It was too much for me and i had played through most of season 1 and all of season 2. Then anet started season 3 and that got me back into the game and i eventually went back and finished HoT, it's STILL hard, but not as hard as it once was. Now I have all the masteries (icebrood saga included), HoT isn't too terrible nowadays, but i still don't venture there willingly because it wasn't designed correctly. season 3 onwards they've really got the balance right, but HoT is still not in a good place.

    What specifically about HoT is difficult for you?

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    What specifically about HoT is difficult for you?

    The balance of enemy encounters while soloing and the frequency of enemies. The frequency of enemies isn't an issue once you get mounts since you can zoom past most enemies and head towards your destination. HoT wasn't designed with the casual solo player in mind, and the nerf doesn't do enough to truly set it to the right balance.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    What specifically about HoT is difficult for you?

    The balance of enemy encounters while soloing and the frequency of enemies. The frequency of enemies isn't an issue once you get mounts since you can zoom past most enemies and head towards your destination. HoT wasn't designed with the casual solo player in mind, and the nerf doesn't do enough to truly set it to the right balance.

    Where are you encountering a ton of enemies? Which enemies are you having trouble killing solo?

  • FrostSpectre.4198FrostSpectre.4198 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2020

    The toxic bacon is eased up to possible if you just use food that grants Health regeneration. Like Mango Pie, which should be cheap.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    What specifically about HoT is difficult for you?

    The balance of enemy encounters while soloing and the frequency of enemies. The frequency of enemies isn't an issue once you get mounts since you can zoom past most enemies and head towards your destination. HoT wasn't designed with the casual solo player in mind, and the nerf doesn't do enough to truly set it to the right balance.

    Where are you encountering a ton of enemies? Which enemies are you having trouble killing solo?

    What are you trying to get at?

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    What specifically about HoT is difficult for you?

    The balance of enemy encounters while soloing and the frequency of enemies. The frequency of enemies isn't an issue once you get mounts since you can zoom past most enemies and head towards your destination. HoT wasn't designed with the casual solo player in mind, and the nerf doesn't do enough to truly set it to the right balance.

    Where are you encountering a ton of enemies? Which enemies are you having trouble killing solo?

    What are you trying to get at?

    Probably trying to find out which part of HOT you found difficult but for some reason you didn't find POF or Season 3 difficult, as if HOT is more difficult than those.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Probably trying to find out which part of HOT you found difficult but for some reason you didn't find POF or Season 3 difficult, as if HOT is more difficult than those.

    HoT IS more difficult than season 3 and PoF. I don't understand how you don't see that. The mobs definitely hit harder, are clumped more together, and there's very few areas where you can just enjoy the scenery.

    Even with mounts, HoT is still unenjoyable and too imbalanced for casual players.

    The mobs of HOT don't hit harder than the mobs of POF. Ever fought a Hydra? A Djinn? A Canid? An Abomination? What are you even talking about. Meanwhile the highest damaging HOT mobs die in a -single- hit (like Smokescales or Shadowleapers). Aggro range in POF is much higher too.

    Have you ever been to the Desolation or Vabbi without following a huge squad around for bounty hunts? Have you actually played Solo at the lower part of POF? Are you telling me there are many places you can enjoy the scenery in Desolation or Vabbi? Because it looks to me that you are comparing Tangled Depths with Crystal Oasis.

    It's rather clear that you have an agenda against HOT, but calling it harder than POF is a clear understatement and I don''t understand how you don't see that. Maybe you remember your first time in HOT years ago when you had zero clue on how to play the game and found it challenging or something.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The mobs of HOT don't hit harder than the mobs of POF. Ever fought a Hydra? A Djinn? A Canid? An Abomination? What are you even talking about. Meanwhile the highest damaging HOT mobs die in a -single- hit (like Smokescales or Shadowleapers). Aggro range in POF is much higher too.

    The mobs DO hit harder, like objectively so, the average HoT mob hits harder than the average PoF mob. Hydras, djinn, canids, and abominations are challenging but not difficult. There's a difference between challenge and difficulty, HoT is difficult AND challenging while PoF is challenging but not difficult. The two terms are not interchangeable. And while yes the aggro range is much higher in PoF, that was to compensate for the mounts (which should be obvious, i don't know why you felt the need to point that out).

    Have you ever been to the Desolation or Vabbi without following a huge squad around for bounty hunts? Have you actually played Solo at the lower part of POF? Are you telling me there are many places you can enjoy the scenery in Desolation or Vabbi? Because it looks to me that you are comparing Tangled Depths with Crystal Oasis.

    I'm not comparing tangled depths with crystal oasis, i'm comparing the entirety of HoT to the entirety of PoF. I recently played through the HoT story line with some friends of mine and it was STILL difficult. Not as difficult as release thanks to the nerf, but still too difficult for the average solo casual player.

    It's rather clear that you have an agenda against HOT, but calling it harder than POF is a clear understatement and I don''t understand how you don't see that. Maybe you remember your first time in HOT years ago when you had zero clue on how to play the game and found it challenging or something.

    That's hilarious. HoT IS harder than PoF, that's really plain as day to see. It's not an agenda, it's just fact.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Obligatory HeARt oF ThOrNS wAs NErFeD!!!

  • Bish.8627Bish.8627 Member ✭✭✭

    The jump from vanilla to HoT is pretty sharp for a new player, my concern would be its not really fun for them and they wouldn't continue on to PoF. Those of us with thousands of hours and mounts don't see it, we aren't spending that much time there. But the maps are awful to navigate and to add challenge Anet made irritating mobs that aren't really fun. They did the same in PoF with mobs getting aggro far too far away. These are the people funding the game for us to have future content also.

    I recently ran through story with a new Renegade char, came across a guy struggling with the Eye of Zhaitan, I did it in minutes and he called me "very strong". I felt bad knowing this guy was about to finish vanilla story, and maybe go to HoT, where each bit of the story is going to be harder than the Eye encounter. This guy still deserves to experience the story of the game, and with some build guidance and time they would be able to beat it all, but that jump in difficulty, that player is not going to finish HoT or buy PoF. They didn't have the time spent in game we did when HoT came out. It simply won't be fun for them.

    The game doesn't need a vast difficulty drop for all future content, but it needs a more linear path from Vanilla to PoF. Events, Raids and Fractals don't need any change.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bish.8627 said:
    The jump from vanilla to HoT is pretty sharp for a new player, my concern would be its not really fun for them and they wouldn't continue on to PoF. Those of us with thousands of hours and mounts don't see it, we aren't spending that much time there. But the maps are awful to navigate and to add challenge Anet made irritating mobs that aren't really fun. They did the same in PoF with mobs getting aggro far too far away. These are the people funding the game for us to have future content also.

    I recently ran through story with a new Renegade char, came across a guy struggling with the Eye of Zhaitan, I did it in minutes and he called me "very strong". I felt bad knowing this guy was about to finish vanilla story, and maybe go to HoT, where each bit of the story is going to be harder than the Eye encounter. This guy still deserves to experience the story of the game, and with some build guidance and time they would be able to beat it all, but that jump in difficulty, that player is not going to finish HoT or buy PoF. They didn't have the time spent in game we did when HoT came out. It simply won't be fun for them.

    The game doesn't need a vast difficulty drop for all future content, but it needs a more linear path from Vanilla to PoF. Events, Raids and Fractals don't need any change.

    It already has a vast difficulty drop ice brood saga is a little over core in difficulty

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bish.8627 said:
    The jump from vanilla to HoT is pretty sharp for a new player

    That's normal since there is supposed to be two living world seasons in-between core and hot. A player isn't even required to visit Southsun Cove before going into hot. Those Young Karka are excellent "training" for fresh level 80s to test their abilities.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Where are you encountering a ton of enemies? Which enemies are you having trouble killing solo?

    What are you trying to get at?

    I was trying to figure out what it is that you're struggling with on the HoT maps and offer advice. I gradually asked more and more specific questions because you weren't really answering why they are difficult for you.

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    Hydras, djinn, canids, and abominations are challenging but not difficult.

    So you never fought any of those, if you compare them with HOT mobs. Good to know, maybe next time get out of Amnoon in POF and compare the outside with HOT, you will make a more objective comparison.

    I've done map completion of both HoT and PoF, I've fought hydras and djinn for fun. You clearly just don't know what you're talking about.

    So you said "Hydras, djinn, canids, and abominations are challenging but not difficult" but don't apply that to HoT mobs. Why? Please be specific.

    That's hilarious. HoT IS harder than PoF, that's really plain as day to see. It's not an agenda, it's just fact.

    Something is not a fact if you say so. Not even close.

    It's not fact 'because' i say so. It just is fact.

    If it's a fact then the data should be readily available to back this up. Do you have it?

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I was trying to figure out what it is that you're struggling with on the HoT maps and offer advice. I gradually asked more and more specific questions because you weren't really answering why they are difficult for you.

    So you said "Hydras, djinn, canids, and abominations are challenging but not difficult" but don't apply that to HoT mobs. Why? Please be specific.

    HoT enemies do far more damage far more quickly than PoF enemies. That's been my experience with it. i easily get overwhelmed when many enemies ambush me in HoT but in PoF i can survive ambush after ambush. I don't really know how to specify exactly what's difficult with HoT and what makes those enemies tuned out of balance for a casual player like myself. But having played through HoT and PoF recently, i can for sure say that HoT is harder.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I was trying to figure out what it is that you're struggling with on the HoT maps and offer advice. I gradually asked more and more specific questions because you weren't really answering why they are difficult for you.

    So you said "Hydras, djinn, canids, and abominations are challenging but not difficult" but don't apply that to HoT mobs. Why? Please be specific.

    HoT enemies do far more damage far more quickly than PoF enemies. That's been my experience with it. i easily get overwhelmed when many enemies ambush me in HoT but in PoF i can survive ambush after ambush. I don't really know how to specify exactly what's difficult with HoT and what makes those enemies tuned out of balance for a casual player like myself. But having played through HoT and PoF recently, i can for sure say that HoT is harder.

    Do you have the damage numbers?

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Do you have the damage numbers?

    I don't, i dont know how to collect that data

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Do you have the damage numbers?

    I don't, i dont know how to collect that data

    I ask because unless you have data then you're simply going by your experience. For example,raiders may find raids easy from their experience but this doesn't necessarily mean that raids are easy as a fact. It only means that raids are easy for them. Just like how HoT is more difficult for you than elsewhere based on your experience playing but this doesn't necessarily mean that HoT is actually more difficult. When you base something on your experience, it becomes subjective and no longer a fact.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I ask because unless you have data then you're simply going by your experience. For example,raiders may find raids easy from their experience but this doesn't necessarily mean that raids are easy as a fact. It only means that raids are easy for them. Just like how HoT is more difficult for you than elsewhere based on your experience playing but this doesn't necessarily mean that HoT is actually more difficult. When you base something on your experience, it becomes subjective and no longer a fact.

    So does my experience count for nothing? This thread exists for a reason.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I ask because unless you have data then you're simply going by your experience. For example,raiders may find raids easy from their experience but this doesn't necessarily mean that raids are easy as a fact. It only means that raids are easy for them. Just like how HoT is more difficult for you than elsewhere based on your experience playing but this doesn't necessarily mean that HoT is actually more difficult. When you base something on your experience, it becomes subjective and no longer a fact.

    So does my experience count for nothing? This thread exists for a reason.

    To other players yes it count for nothing, to you no it counts since its your experience.

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    Even with mounts, HoT is still unenjoyable and too imbalanced for casual players.

    Casual has nothing to do with it. I am a casual (a few hours per week) and can and play all the content that gw2 offers.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cuks.8241 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    Even with mounts, HoT is still unenjoyable and too imbalanced for casual players.

    Casual has nothing to do with it. I am a casual (a few hours per week) and can and play all the content that gw2 offers.

    You must have missed the part where i mentioned that i map completed HoT and PoF. I also have all the masteries. I can play all the content too, but that doesn't mean that HoT was balanced correctly.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    HoT map completion has been done with a level 2 character several times; champ hero points obviously leeched from an HP train. The maps do not have swarms of enemies in locations except for during certain events. The enemies all have similar mechanics just like the PoF enemies. You listed the djinn, hydras, and one other mob type as being challenging but not difficult and yet HoT enemies really are no different from them. I've asked which HoT enemies you have found difficulties with but you never answered the question. I asked where in HoT that you encounters swarms of enemies which you never answered.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    HoT map completion has been done with a level 2 character several times; champ hero points obviously leeched from an HP train.

    That doesn't really speak to a casual's experience though, and I'm talking about a casual's experience

    The maps do not have swarms of enemies in locations except for during certain events.

    i don't know what to tell you, I've been ambushed before (especially pocket raptors but not exclusively pocket raptors)

    The enemies all have similar mechanics just like the PoF enemies .You listed the djinn, hydras, and one other mob type as being challenging but not difficult and yet HoT enemies really are no different from them.

    the enemies in HoT are both challenging and difficult, while the enemies in PoF are challenging but not difficult. the two terms aren't interchangeable.

    I've asked which HoT enemies you have found difficulties with but you never answered the question. I asked where in HoT that you encounters swarms of enemies which you never answered.

    Generally speaking, most if not all HoT enemies are difficult, and generally all around HoT maps. I can't really point to specifics because it's been a while, and it's not like i need to go back to HoT maps for anything since i have all the masteries completed, so i just never venture there anymore, and I'm not going to make myself miserable by going back to HoT just to see which specific places and which specific mobs are unbalanced and where. Just because you don't find it difficult doesn't mean it's not difficult for casual players.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.