Make A Raid Matchmaking System For Solo Players — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Make A Raid Matchmaking System For Solo Players

SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

it's too much to ask? everyone should enjoy raids / end game content.

not everyone want to join a guild or have 10 friends to raid.

also will kill the "raid sellers" on the lobby.
kill the show proof players

random raids - MATCHMAKING
specific raids - MATCHMAKING

if someone leaves just re-queue his slot to replace him

guild players don't need to use it.

<134

Comments

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    Thank you for extremely thoughtful insight into the issue.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    How would it work in this game with the various roles that need to be filled for each encounter? What about the different squad comps that are used? Do you really think players will use this over creating their own groups?

    I can tell you right now that any raid matchmaking system added in this game would fail.

    This is for players that don't have their own groups no one is forcing everyone use it, also it's simple just let people choose the role, if you need 2-3-4 healers the matchmaking should premade this, only 0,0001% of the player base play raids because you need to create your own group

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @skarpak.8594 said:
    you can see how good such a random lfg finder would work in raids, when you queue random for boneskimmer.
    just go ahead and try it. after you have done that 10 times come back and tell us how good it was. then proceed to delete your thread...this will never work in gw2 without reducing the difficulty level to a random level 1 mob in starter area.

    sure you can make your own group if you want something more coordinate, but it's better with random players trying than never do it because you don't have a group, this is for solo players

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2020

    @skarpak.8594 said:
    with that attitude the guilds are probably also glad that you are not trying to join.
    no one likes egoistic people which demand that content gets changed so it fits their agenda.

    also will kill the "raid sellers" on the lobby.
    kill the show proof players

    who is the toxic one? "others not playing like i want to play? heh get rid of them!"
    toxic casuals are destroying the game tbh.

    egoistic people are the ones who don't want to other people have a try on raids because "my guild only and no matchmaking for u, i don't give a single kitten about solo players tbh."

    i don't see how making a matchmaking so people can choose to use it and enjoy the true end game will destroy the game for u, so who is the egoistic here?

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @skarpak.8594 said:
    with that attitude the guilds are probably also glad that you are not trying to join.
    no one likes egoistic people which demand that content gets changed so it fits their agenda.

    also will kill the "raid sellers" on the lobby.
    kill the show proof players

    who is the toxic one? "others not playing like i want to play? heh get rid of them!"
    toxic casuals are destroying the game tbh.

    egoistic people are the ones who don't want to other people have a try on raids because my guild only and no matchmaking for u

    You don't need a guild to do raids. You don't even need the commander tag. Just create LFG called "everyone welcome" and you will get the same LFR experience. And if you're on NA servers then my condolences...

    the problem is lfg don't work as a matchmaking

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Some players were asking for years for an auto grouping tool for raids.

    Many others explained why this would not work.

    The developers then added strikes, a similar but quite a bit less demanding content compared to raids.

    The developers also added auto grouping tools to strikes. A feature which sees literally 0 use. Exactly as was explained by players who knew this would not work.

    Congratulations, you made it back to the past, unable to learn and understand why auto grouping for content does not work here, literally while their is an auto grouping tool IN THIS GAME, which sees no use.

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @skarpak.8594 said:
    you can see how good such a random lfg finder would work in raids, when you queue random for boneskimmer.
    just go ahead and try it. after you have done that 10 times come back and tell us how good it was. then proceed to delete your thread...this will never work in gw2 without reducing the difficulty level to a random level 1 mob in starter area.

    sure you can make your own group if you want something more coordinate, but it's better with random players trying than never do it because you don't have a group, this is for solo players

    No, it actually is not. The content becomes disproportionate harder. Auto grouping into this content would lead to 0 success, while making the content seem a lot harder than it is. Thus potentially removing potentially interested players.

    If there even was players in the first place to use the feature, which as strikes auto group finder has shown, there are not. Which in turn makes this wasted developer resources.

    So no, it is not better than never doing the content. You are just claiming as such because you are unable or uncapable to find groups for this content, which as mentioned is harder on NA outside of raiding academy. You thus assume this would change with auto grouping: it would not.

    if you need specific roles for bosses of course a matchmaking that throw random roles will fail, "No, it actually is not. The content becomes disproportionate harder. Auto grouping into this content would lead to 0 success, while making the content seem a lot harder than it is. Thus potentially removing potentially interested players." oh yeah that's why only 99% of the player base play it and the other 1% are the ones that can't play, no!! it's only 1% that play it because the other 99% can't find players.

    anet just want to say that there's no roles on the game but that's not true on raids, choosing before queue will not make the game with roles

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @skarpak.8594 said:
    with that attitude the guilds are probably also glad that you are not trying to join.
    no one likes egoistic people which demand that content gets changed so it fits their agenda.

    also will kill the "raid sellers" on the lobby.
    kill the show proof players

    who is the toxic one? "others not playing like i want to play? heh get rid of them!"
    toxic casuals are destroying the game tbh.

    egoistic people are the ones who don't want to other people have a try on raids because my guild only and no matchmaking for u

    You don't need a guild to do raids. You don't even need the commander tag. Just create LFG called "everyone welcome" and you will get the same LFR experience. And if you're on NA servers then my condolences...

    the problem is lfg don't work as a matchmaking

    And what exactly is this magical queue going to offer that you already couldn't do yourself? If you want to search for 3 healers, simply write LF 3 healers. If you don't care about roles simply put yourself on LFG and say wing 1 and wait for people to join. This experience is exactly the same as if you matchmade.

    because lfg take ages to find? imagine u doing pvp/wvw and try to manual find players for every team lmao

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Some players were asking for years for an auto grouping tool for raids.

    Many others explained why this would not work.

    The developers then added strikes, a similar but quite a bit less demanding content compared to raids.

    The developers also added auto grouping tools to strikes. A feature which sees literally 0 use. Exactly as was explained by players who knew this would not work.

    Congratulations, you made it back to the past, unable to learn and understand why auto grouping for content does not work here, literally while their is an auto grouping tool IN THIS GAME, which sees no use.

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @skarpak.8594 said:
    you can see how good such a random lfg finder would work in raids, when you queue random for boneskimmer.
    just go ahead and try it. after you have done that 10 times come back and tell us how good it was. then proceed to delete your thread...this will never work in gw2 without reducing the difficulty level to a random level 1 mob in starter area.

    sure you can make your own group if you want something more coordinate, but it's better with random players trying than never do it because you don't have a group, this is for solo players

    No, it actually is not. The content becomes disproportionate harder. Auto grouping into this content would lead to 0 success, while making the content seem a lot harder than it is. Thus potentially removing potentially interested players.

    If there even was players in the first place to use the feature, which as strikes auto group finder has shown, there are not. Which in turn makes this wasted developer resources.

    So no, it is not better than never doing the content. You are just claiming as such because you are unable or uncapable to find groups for this content, which as mentioned is harder on NA outside of raiding academy. You thus assume this would change with auto grouping: it would not.

    if you need specific roles for bosses of course a matchmaking that throw random roles will fail, "No, it actually is not. The content becomes disproportionate harder. Auto grouping into this content would lead to 0 success, while making the content seem a lot harder than it is. Thus potentially removing potentially interested players." oh yeah that's why only 99% of the player base play it and the other 1% are the ones that can't play, no!! it's only 1% that play it because the other 99% can't find players

    Listen, if you can't understand why auto grouping will not work, while there is just such a system in game for an easier type of content, that's on you.

    I'm to tired to explain why this would not work any more. These discussions were had in the past for raids. You are 5 years late.

    The auto grouping in game has proven experienced players correct, once again. Again, they could add it right now, and you would find 0 players while using it. Want to try this? Use the auto grouping feature for strikes, and see how long it takes until you have a full 10 player squad. I'm not even talikng about a successful 10 player group. Just use the feature and go and see how long it takes until you have ANY 10 players together.

    strikes is only one content of the game, people get bored after a while, there's no real prize doing it, raids u get legendary so there's a prize on the end it's a very different question here.
    no one play dungeons because there's no real prize

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @skarpak.8594 said:
    with that attitude the guilds are probably also glad that you are not trying to join.
    no one likes egoistic people which demand that content gets changed so it fits their agenda.

    also will kill the "raid sellers" on the lobby.
    kill the show proof players

    who is the toxic one? "others not playing like i want to play? heh get rid of them!"
    toxic casuals are destroying the game tbh.

    egoistic people are the ones who don't want to other people have a try on raids because my guild only and no matchmaking for u

    You don't need a guild to do raids. You don't even need the commander tag. Just create LFG called "everyone welcome" and you will get the same LFR experience. And if you're on NA servers then my condolences...

    the problem is lfg don't work as a matchmaking

    And what exactly is this magical queue going to offer that you already couldn't do yourself? If you want to search for 3 healers, simply write LF 3 healers. If you don't care about roles simply put yourself on LFG and say wing 1 and wait for people to join. This experience is exactly the same as if you matchmade.

    because lfg take ages to find? imagine u doing pvp/wvw and try to manual find players for every team lmao

    and yet, LFG works perfectly fine for strikes, fills up within seconds, especially for free for all groups, while the auto grouping is dead in the water.

    Yet suddenly , the auto grouping will be more succesful for raids, which are even harder than strikes.

    Yeah, that makes sense.

    The auto grouping for spvp gets balanced by players switching classes and matching players based on a MMR system. Yet even that barely works. Imagine getting rouped for pve by a MMR system, dear god, new players would never see any raid kill.

    WvW works on the same principle, players changing class as demanded or simply not being competative. Most organized WvW groups preorganize and often destroy opposition of public players.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @skarpak.8594 said:
    with that attitude the guilds are probably also glad that you are not trying to join.
    no one likes egoistic people which demand that content gets changed so it fits their agenda.

    also will kill the "raid sellers" on the lobby.
    kill the show proof players

    who is the toxic one? "others not playing like i want to play? heh get rid of them!"
    toxic casuals are destroying the game tbh.

    egoistic people are the ones who don't want to other people have a try on raids because my guild only and no matchmaking for u

    You don't need a guild to do raids. You don't even need the commander tag. Just create LFG called "everyone welcome" and you will get the same LFR experience. And if you're on NA servers then my condolences...

    the problem is lfg don't work as a matchmaking

    And what exactly is this magical queue going to offer that you already couldn't do yourself? If you want to search for 3 healers, simply write LF 3 healers. If you don't care about roles simply put yourself on LFG and say wing 1 and wait for people to join. This experience is exactly the same as if you matchmade.

    because lfg take ages to find? imagine u doing pvp/wvw and try to manual find players for every team lmao

    and yet, LFG works perfectly fine for strikes, fills up within seconds, especially for free for all groups, while the auto grouping is dead in the water.

    Yet suddenly , the auto grouping will be more succesful for raids, which are even harder than strikes.

    Yeah, that makes sense.

    The auto grouping for spvp gets balanced by players switching classes and matching players based on a MMR system. Yet even that barely works. Imagine getting rouped for pve by a MMR system, dear god, new players would never see any raid kill.

    WvW works on the same principle, players changing class as demanded or simply not being competative. Most organized WvW groups preorganize and often destroy opposition of public players.

    what is better getting a hard kill on raids or never enter in a raid? every one would choose the first

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2020

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Some players were asking for years for an auto grouping tool for raids.

    Many others explained why this would not work.

    The developers then added strikes, a similar but quite a bit less demanding content compared to raids.

    The developers also added auto grouping tools to strikes. A feature which sees literally 0 use. Exactly as was explained by players who knew this would not work.

    Congratulations, you made it back to the past, unable to learn and understand why auto grouping for content does not work here, literally while their is an auto grouping tool IN THIS GAME, which sees no use.

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @skarpak.8594 said:
    you can see how good such a random lfg finder would work in raids, when you queue random for boneskimmer.
    just go ahead and try it. after you have done that 10 times come back and tell us how good it was. then proceed to delete your thread...this will never work in gw2 without reducing the difficulty level to a random level 1 mob in starter area.

    sure you can make your own group if you want something more coordinate, but it's better with random players trying than never do it because you don't have a group, this is for solo players

    No, it actually is not. The content becomes disproportionate harder. Auto grouping into this content would lead to 0 success, while making the content seem a lot harder than it is. Thus potentially removing potentially interested players.

    If there even was players in the first place to use the feature, which as strikes auto group finder has shown, there are not. Which in turn makes this wasted developer resources.

    So no, it is not better than never doing the content. You are just claiming as such because you are unable or uncapable to find groups for this content, which as mentioned is harder on NA outside of raiding academy. You thus assume this would change with auto grouping: it would not.

    if you need specific roles for bosses of course a matchmaking that throw random roles will fail, "No, it actually is not. The content becomes disproportionate harder. Auto grouping into this content would lead to 0 success, while making the content seem a lot harder than it is. Thus potentially removing potentially interested players." oh yeah that's why only 99% of the player base play it and the other 1% are the ones that can't play, no!! it's only 1% that play it because the other 99% can't find players

    Listen, if you can't understand why auto grouping will not work, while there is just such a system in game for an easier type of content, that's on you.

    I'm to tired to explain why this would not work any more. These discussions were had in the past for raids. You are 5 years late.

    The auto grouping in game has proven experienced players correct, once again. Again, they could add it right now, and you would find 0 players while using it. Want to try this? Use the auto grouping feature for strikes, and see how long it takes until you have a full 10 player squad. I'm not even talikng about a successful 10 player group. Just use the feature and go and see how long it takes until you have ANY 10 players together.

    strikes is only one content of the game, people get bored after a while, there's no real prize doing it, raids u get legendary so there's a prize on the end it's a very different question here.
    no one play dungeons because there's no real prize

    Strikes are far more lucrative than raids gold wise. There is enough players to do them daily for multiple full groups per minute, especially during prime time, for hours. Yet even this way more played content sees no auto grouping use.

    Your argument is nonsense.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @skarpak.8594 said:
    with that attitude the guilds are probably also glad that you are not trying to join.
    no one likes egoistic people which demand that content gets changed so it fits their agenda.

    also will kill the "raid sellers" on the lobby.
    kill the show proof players

    who is the toxic one? "others not playing like i want to play? heh get rid of them!"
    toxic casuals are destroying the game tbh.

    egoistic people are the ones who don't want to other people have a try on raids because my guild only and no matchmaking for u

    You don't need a guild to do raids. You don't even need the commander tag. Just create LFG called "everyone welcome" and you will get the same LFR experience. And if you're on NA servers then my condolences...

    the problem is lfg don't work as a matchmaking

    And what exactly is this magical queue going to offer that you already couldn't do yourself? If you want to search for 3 healers, simply write LF 3 healers. If you don't care about roles simply put yourself on LFG and say wing 1 and wait for people to join. This experience is exactly the same as if you matchmade.

    because lfg take ages to find? imagine u doing pvp/wvw and try to manual find players for every team lmao

    and yet, LFG works perfectly fine for strikes, fills up within seconds, especially for free for all groups, while the auto grouping is dead in the water.

    Yet suddenly , the auto grouping will be more succesful for raids, which are even harder than strikes.

    Yeah, that makes sense.

    The auto grouping for spvp gets balanced by players switching classes and matching players based on a MMR system. Yet even that barely works. Imagine getting rouped for pve by a MMR system, dear god, new players would never see any raid kill.

    WvW works on the same principle, players changing class as demanded or simply not being competative. Most organized WvW groups preorganize and often destroy opposition of public players.

    what is better getting a hard kill on raids or never enter in a raid? every one would choose the first

    Given how auto grouping for easier content has shown, I'll argue that the vast majority of player, if not all, will go with option 2.

    Your assumption is not supported by what is happening in game.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Some players were asking for years for an auto grouping tool for raids.

    Many others explained why this would not work.

    The developers then added strikes, a similar but quite a bit less demanding content compared to raids.

    The developers also added auto grouping tools to strikes. A feature which sees literally 0 use. Exactly as was explained by players who knew this would not work.

    Congratulations, you made it back to the past, unable to learn and understand why auto grouping for content does not work here, literally while their is an auto grouping tool IN THIS GAME, which sees no use.

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @skarpak.8594 said:
    you can see how good such a random lfg finder would work in raids, when you queue random for boneskimmer.
    just go ahead and try it. after you have done that 10 times come back and tell us how good it was. then proceed to delete your thread...this will never work in gw2 without reducing the difficulty level to a random level 1 mob in starter area.

    sure you can make your own group if you want something more coordinate, but it's better with random players trying than never do it because you don't have a group, this is for solo players

    No, it actually is not. The content becomes disproportionate harder. Auto grouping into this content would lead to 0 success, while making the content seem a lot harder than it is. Thus potentially removing potentially interested players.

    If there even was players in the first place to use the feature, which as strikes auto group finder has shown, there are not. Which in turn makes this wasted developer resources.

    So no, it is not better than never doing the content. You are just claiming as such because you are unable or uncapable to find groups for this content, which as mentioned is harder on NA outside of raiding academy. You thus assume this would change with auto grouping: it would not.

    if you need specific roles for bosses of course a matchmaking that throw random roles will fail, "No, it actually is not. The content becomes disproportionate harder. Auto grouping into this content would lead to 0 success, while making the content seem a lot harder than it is. Thus potentially removing potentially interested players." oh yeah that's why only 99% of the player base play it and the other 1% are the ones that can't play, no!! it's only 1% that play it because the other 99% can't find players

    Listen, if you can't understand why auto grouping will not work, while there is just such a system in game for an easier type of content, that's on you.

    I'm to tired to explain why this would not work any more. These discussions were had in the past for raids. You are 5 years late.

    The auto grouping in game has proven experienced players correct, once again. Again, they could add it right now, and you would find 0 players while using it. Want to try this? Use the auto grouping feature for strikes, and see how long it takes until you have a full 10 player squad. I'm not even talikng about a successful 10 player group. Just use the feature and go and see how long it takes until you have ANY 10 players together.

    strikes is only one content of the game, people get bored after a while, there's no real prize doing it, raids u get legendary so there's a prize on the end it's a very different question here.
    no one play dungeons because there's no real prize

    Strikes are far more lucrative than raids gold wise. There is enough players to do them daily for multiple full groups per minute, especially during prime time, for hours. Yet even this way more played content sees no auto grouping use.

    Your argument is nonsense.

    because the autogrouping don't work as it should, they don't find player roles, it just throw 10 dps on u and everyone fail, so players are forced to manually find a party

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Some players were asking for years for an auto grouping tool for raids.

    Many others explained why this would not work.

    The developers then added strikes, a similar but quite a bit less demanding content compared to raids.

    The developers also added auto grouping tools to strikes. A feature which sees literally 0 use. Exactly as was explained by players who knew this would not work.

    Congratulations, you made it back to the past, unable to learn and understand why auto grouping for content does not work here, literally while their is an auto grouping tool IN THIS GAME, which sees no use.

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @skarpak.8594 said:
    you can see how good such a random lfg finder would work in raids, when you queue random for boneskimmer.
    just go ahead and try it. after you have done that 10 times come back and tell us how good it was. then proceed to delete your thread...this will never work in gw2 without reducing the difficulty level to a random level 1 mob in starter area.

    sure you can make your own group if you want something more coordinate, but it's better with random players trying than never do it because you don't have a group, this is for solo players

    No, it actually is not. The content becomes disproportionate harder. Auto grouping into this content would lead to 0 success, while making the content seem a lot harder than it is. Thus potentially removing potentially interested players.

    If there even was players in the first place to use the feature, which as strikes auto group finder has shown, there are not. Which in turn makes this wasted developer resources.

    So no, it is not better than never doing the content. You are just claiming as such because you are unable or uncapable to find groups for this content, which as mentioned is harder on NA outside of raiding academy. You thus assume this would change with auto grouping: it would not.

    if you need specific roles for bosses of course a matchmaking that throw random roles will fail, "No, it actually is not. The content becomes disproportionate harder. Auto grouping into this content would lead to 0 success, while making the content seem a lot harder than it is. Thus potentially removing potentially interested players." oh yeah that's why only 99% of the player base play it and the other 1% are the ones that can't play, no!! it's only 1% that play it because the other 99% can't find players

    Listen, if you can't understand why auto grouping will not work, while there is just such a system in game for an easier type of content, that's on you.

    I'm to tired to explain why this would not work any more. These discussions were had in the past for raids. You are 5 years late.

    The auto grouping in game has proven experienced players correct, once again. Again, they could add it right now, and you would find 0 players while using it. Want to try this? Use the auto grouping feature for strikes, and see how long it takes until you have a full 10 player squad. I'm not even talikng about a successful 10 player group. Just use the feature and go and see how long it takes until you have ANY 10 players together.

    strikes is only one content of the game, people get bored after a while, there's no real prize doing it, raids u get legendary so there's a prize on the end it's a very different question here.
    no one play dungeons because there's no real prize

    Strikes are far more lucrative than raids gold wise. There is enough players to do them daily for multiple full groups per minute, especially during prime time, for hours. Yet even this way more played content sees no auto grouping use.

    Your argument is nonsense.

    because the autogrouping don't work as it should, they don't find player roles, it just throw 10 dps on u and everyone fail, so players are forced to manually find a party

    You need almost no roles for strikes.

    For raids, you not only need roles, you need players able to do specific mechanics, specific setups like highest toughness, specific tasks during encounters, etc.

    Good luck making a matchmaker which can actually accomodate for all this.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Some players were asking for years for an auto grouping tool for raids.

    Many others explained why this would not work.

    The developers then added strikes, a similar but quite a bit less demanding content compared to raids.

    The developers also added auto grouping tools to strikes. A feature which sees literally 0 use. Exactly as was explained by players who knew this would not work.

    Congratulations, you made it back to the past, unable to learn and understand why auto grouping for content does not work here, literally while their is an auto grouping tool IN THIS GAME, which sees no use.

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @skarpak.8594 said:
    you can see how good such a random lfg finder would work in raids, when you queue random for boneskimmer.
    just go ahead and try it. after you have done that 10 times come back and tell us how good it was. then proceed to delete your thread...this will never work in gw2 without reducing the difficulty level to a random level 1 mob in starter area.

    sure you can make your own group if you want something more coordinate, but it's better with random players trying than never do it because you don't have a group, this is for solo players

    No, it actually is not. The content becomes disproportionate harder. Auto grouping into this content would lead to 0 success, while making the content seem a lot harder than it is. Thus potentially removing potentially interested players.

    If there even was players in the first place to use the feature, which as strikes auto group finder has shown, there are not. Which in turn makes this wasted developer resources.

    So no, it is not better than never doing the content. You are just claiming as such because you are unable or uncapable to find groups for this content, which as mentioned is harder on NA outside of raiding academy. You thus assume this would change with auto grouping: it would not.

    if you need specific roles for bosses of course a matchmaking that throw random roles will fail, "No, it actually is not. The content becomes disproportionate harder. Auto grouping into this content would lead to 0 success, while making the content seem a lot harder than it is. Thus potentially removing potentially interested players." oh yeah that's why only 99% of the player base play it and the other 1% are the ones that can't play, no!! it's only 1% that play it because the other 99% can't find players

    Listen, if you can't understand why auto grouping will not work, while there is just such a system in game for an easier type of content, that's on you.

    I'm to tired to explain why this would not work any more. These discussions were had in the past for raids. You are 5 years late.

    The auto grouping in game has proven experienced players correct, once again. Again, they could add it right now, and you would find 0 players while using it. Want to try this? Use the auto grouping feature for strikes, and see how long it takes until you have a full 10 player squad. I'm not even talikng about a successful 10 player group. Just use the feature and go and see how long it takes until you have ANY 10 players together.

    strikes is only one content of the game, people get bored after a while, there's no real prize doing it, raids u get legendary so there's a prize on the end it's a very different question here.
    no one play dungeons because there's no real prize

    Strikes are far more lucrative than raids gold wise. There is enough players to do them daily for multiple full groups per minute, especially during prime time, for hours. Yet even this way more played content sees no auto grouping use.

    Your argument is nonsense.

    because the autogrouping don't work as it should, they don't find player roles, it just throw 10 dps on u and everyone fail, so players are forced to manually find a party

    You need almost no roles for strikes.

    For raids, you not only need roles, you need players able to do specific mechanics, specific setups like highest toughness, specific tasks during encounters, etc.

    Good luck making a matchmaker which can actually accomodate for all this.

    it's not like the devs can't think on something, they made the game after all

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I personally fail to see what an auto matchmaking system would provide that lfg doesn't.

    Can someone enlighten me please.

  • Ubusaff.8920Ubusaff.8920 Member
    edited August 8, 2020

    There are no negatives to having more options for people to group up. If more people get to experience raid content, even if they fail, why not? If you don't like the idea of auto grouping just continue using lfg. And almost no one does strikes because there is no reason to do them, raids offer legendary armor

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2020

    @Ubusaff.8920 said:
    There are no negatives to having more options for people to group up.

    That is not true. The base assumption here is that more options are always a benefit, which does not hold true.

    For example, as mentioned, more options create complexity. More options also spread players over multiple group creating tools, also a negative.

    @Ubusaff.8920 said:
    If more people get to experience raid content, even if they fail, why not? If you don't like the idea of auto grouping just continue using lfg. And almost no one does strikes because there is no reason to do them, raids offer legendary armor

    Because players failing at content can scare them away from that content completely. They might not be interested in engaging in the content in a productive way. That's like saying more options to get people to drive cars is a benefit. Let's just have everyone start driving without understanding the basics or how to operate a vehicle. Disastrous.

    Even competitor games in this field manage this aspect with reducing content difficulty tremendously (see WoW LFR or other MMORPGs auto grouping raid content, which is always significantly easier than the actual content). Most of those games even have a hard trinity which makes creating groups easier, and they still are forced to lower the content difficulty significantly.

    We have a direct in-game example of auto grouping literally failing at its task for far easier content which does not even require as complex group compositions.

    Now, yes the developers could work on developing a comprehensive autogrouping feature where traits and roles can be defined and specifically searched. It might even work. The question here becomes: are the devoted resources needed, or could they be put to better use?

    TL;DR:
    There is no benefit to adding a feature which has no chance of success at the content to begin with. Making the feature more complex and comprehensive might increase the chance of success at an increased cost of development resources, without guarantee that it will work.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2020

    I think an automated match maker for raids could work,
    if Arenanet would finally make an easier version of raids
    and make only that version available for said match maker.

    This would also increase engagement with raids and thus potentially raising the chance for new wings to be created.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I think an automated match maker for raids could work,
    if Arenanet would finally make an easier version of raids
    and make only that version available for said match maker.

    This would also increase engagement with raids and thus potentially raising the chance for new wings to be created.

    That will never work since players will never be specifically directed towards raids for the in-game content.

    On top of that, good luck finding the appropriate rewards for it. Because at this point it will need to be better than open world/festivals and yet inferior to regular raids.

    I suggest to keep it simple and continue playing strikes to get its future updated rewards.

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2020

    Questions for OP

    How will role selecting work. BY self selecting roles or gear checking and auto placing roles?
    If its the former, what about players who say they are healer, but have dps gear. If its the latter, gear checking is controversial enough as it is. Will it ban you if you dont have good enough gear/stats? How will the LFR decide whats needed in the first place. E.g 1 heal vs 2 or even 3

    Is this LFR going to enfore the meta?
    Will it demand each group has a druid or will it only request healers. If it lacks a druid, what happens when 3 scrappers join and the group has 0 might uptime.

    What about alacrity and quickness?
    There are multiple ways to obtain 100% quickness and alacrity, most of these roles also double as healer or dps. Will the lfr be able to adapt and changes its requirements for example if a hfb joins, removing the need for 1 healer but necessitating an alcren instead of boon chrono for alacrity.

    What about specilized roles?
    Many raid bosses need a special role, that often needs a special build in order to function. Will the LFR recognize these roles, what about roles where the player is expected to not only do the special mechanic, but also provide dps or heals. e.g pusher for desmina, lamp for qadim. How will it check the player who joins is suitable for both these jobs.

    What about wing full clears?
    Will the LFR be limited to 1 boss only. How can it check that players can even open that boss. If it accounts for full wing clears, what about special mechanics there. Will it be able to put together a sufficient group for say, desmina that needs full condi dps and a special mechanics and then power dps for statues, and finally 3 special mechanics for dhuum. I assume gear checker will be in place for single bosses but thats not possible for multibosses, what about people who lie and join saying they can do special roles, then when the group reaches that boss they are useless. Can you kick them? If yes will the LFR recognise which role was kicked and replace it properly?

    All in all, it would need a very complex algorithm to even come close to being effective at making useful groups and the amount of work it would take to make that happen seems excessive when LFG can perform almost the same function, with more agency to players at the cost of some convenience.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    Questions for OP

    How will role selecting work. BY self selecting roles or gear checking and auto placing roles?

    anet can define a minimum of roles for each raid to be possible to finish it, if it's possible to finish it with 1 or 2 healers then the mm should know it and search for players that signed as healers, gear checking should not be a thing, if players want to check everything they should make a manual raid, also this is toxic.

    If its the former, what about players who say they are healer, but have dps gear. If its the latter, gear checking is controversial enough as it is. Will it ban you if you dont have good enough gear/stats? How will the LFR decide whats needed in the first place. E.g 1 heal vs 2 or even 3

    about the gear anet can implement a system and info that everyone should have at least a purple gear to do it, they can auto check if the player is using some healing power gear if they queue as healer or a minimum heal power, if not he can't queue as healer.
    they should know a minimum to finish it.

    players that want min max should do their own raid.

    Is this LFR going to enfore the meta?

    meta should not be a thing.

    Will it demand each group has a druid or will it only request healers. If it lacks a druid, what happens when 3 scrappers join and the group has 0 might uptime.

    does the raid demand a druid or a healer? if a healer, the class should not matter, scrappers should not be queued as healers if they can't heal, if the dps is low and the party going to have a hard time does not matter, if they can finish it.
    if druid is a bad healer it's anet problem on balacing classes.

    What about alacrity and quickness?
    There are multiple ways to obtain 100% quickness and alacrity, most of these roles also double as healer or dps. Will the lfr be able to adapt and changes its requirements for example if a hfb joins, removing the need for 1 healer but necessitating an alcren instead of boon chrono for alacrity.

    if someone want to min max stats they should make a manual raid, the mm should be for players that want to have fun and try to finish it, so everyone can enjoy end content even if having a harder time.

    What about specilized roles?
    Many raid bosses need a special role, that often needs a special build in order to function. Will the LFR recognize these roles, what about roles where the player is expected to not only do the special mechanic, but also provide dps or heals. e.g pusher for desmina, lamp for qadim. How will it check the player who joins is suitable for both these jobs.

    the only way to kill the raid boss is with that role? players defined it or anet? if so something is very wrong with the class balance.
    if you can kill with other classes should it matter? min max players should do their own raid.

    What about wing full clears?
    Will the LFR be limited to 1 boss only. How can it check that players can even open that boss. If it accounts for full wing clears, what about special mechanics there. Will it be able to put together a sufficient group for say, desmina that needs full condi dps and a special mechanics and then power dps for statues, and finally 3 special mechanics for dhuum. I assume gear checker will be in place for single bosses but thats not possible for multibosses, what about people who lie and join saying they can do special roles, then when the group reaches that boss they are useless. Can you kick them? If yes will the LFR recognise which role was kicked and replace it properly?

    this is a complex question, but anet can put a info to players that they should have more than one gear available to change the type of the dps for different types of bosses or they going to fail, players at first time will not know what they going to face until they learn the raid, older players should teach them, everyone using the mm should know they going to face random players.

    if the raid really need that special role because of anet definition then the mm should look for someone at that role without losing the raid progression.
    a vote kick can be a good thing only if all the players accept it, the problem is toxic players using dps checks that can be a cancer.

    All in all, it would need a very complex algorithm to even come close to being effective at making useful groups and the amount of work it would take to make that happen seems excessive when LFG can perform almost the same function, with more agency to players at the cost of some convenience.

    it's better having a hard time doing a raid with randoms than never do it

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2020

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    Questions for OP

    How will role selecting work. BY self selecting roles or gear checking and auto placing roles?

    anet can define a minimum of roles for each raid to be possible to finish it, if it's possible to finish it with 1 or 2 healers then the mm should know it and search for players that signed as healers, gear checking should not be a thing, if players want to check everything they should make a manual raid, also this is toxic.

    It is possible to finish most raids with 0 heals. That does not mean 99% of the playerbase will be capable of doing the raid with no heals. In fact, most players would wipe within a few minutes without at least 1 healer. This is why I ask, what should the LFR ask for. In general 3 healers are considered too much for a raid, but there are many groups that do raid that NEED 3 healers to complete it.

    You say gear check is toxic

    If its the former, what about players who say they are healer, but have dps gear. If its the latter, gear checking is controversial enough as it is. Will it ban you if you dont have good enough gear/stats? How will the LFR decide whats needed in the first place. E.g 1 heal vs 2 or even 3

    about the gear anet can implement a system and info that everyone should have at least a purple gear to do it, they can auto check if the player is using some healing power gear if they queue as healer or a minimum heal power, if not he can't queue as healer.
    they should know a minimum to finish it.

    players that want min max should do their own raid.

    And then immedatly say the game should gear check you.

    Is this LFR going to enfore the meta?

    meta should not be a thing.

    Will it demand each group has a druid or will it only request healers. If it lacks a druid, what happens when 3 scrappers join and the group has 0 might uptime.

    does the raid demand a druid or a healer? if a healer, the class should not matter, scrappers should not be queued as healers if they can't heal, if the dps is low and the party going to have a hard time does not matter, if they can finish it.
    if druid is a bad healer it's anet problem on balacing classes.

    You clearly have no idea how raids work then. It does matter if the dps is low. Too low dps and the boss will enrage, usually wiping everyone instantly.

    The druid is taken to give might to the entire group. Without any might you lose +750 power and condition damage massively reducing the groups dps. Raids are balanced around the assumption the whole group will have max might stacks the whole fight. I imagine anyone using a LFR will not beat the enrage timer on some bosses, especially largos without might. This is why meta exists. To make sure the group has the buff it needs to beat the raid.

    So I ask again, do you demand a druid and ensure the group has might, giving a reasonable chance of cdlearing the fight? Or do you not ask for one, rejecting the meta but chancing you will get 3 scrapper healers who cannot give any might.

    What about alacrity and quickness?
    There are multiple ways to obtain 100% quickness and alacrity, most of these roles also double as healer or dps. Will the lfr be able to adapt and changes its requirements for example if a hfb joins, removing the need for 1 healer but necessitating an alcren instead of boon chrono for alacrity.

    if someone want to min max stats they should make a manual raid, the mm should be for players that want to have fun and try to finish it, so everyone can enjoy end content even if having a harder time.

    Once again, raids are balanced around the expectation that the group will have permanent alacrity and quickness buffs. If you have a group without those buffs you lose more than half the squads damage. Most LFR groups will not be able to beat the bosses with no buffs. This once again shows you dont even understand the most basic stuff about raids.

    What about specilized roles?
    Many raid bosses need a special role, that often needs a special build in order to function. Will the LFR recognize these roles, what about roles where the player is expected to not only do the special mechanic, but also provide dps or heals. e.g pusher for desmina, lamp for qadim. How will it check the player who joins is suitable for both these jobs.

    the only way to kill the raid boss is with that role? players defined it or anet? if so something is very wrong with the class balance.
    if you can kill with other classes should it matter? min max players should do their own raid.

    Yes the only way to kill that boss is with that role. While several classes can hand kite on deimos, if you dont have someone who knows how to do it you cannot kill the boss. You will wipe within the first minute. This is true of several bosses who need special roles.

    What about wing full clears?
    Will the LFR be limited to 1 boss only. How can it check that players can even open that boss. If it accounts for full wing clears, what about special mechanics there. Will it be able to put together a sufficient group for say, desmina that needs full condi dps and a special mechanics and then power dps for statues, and finally 3 special mechanics for dhuum. I assume gear checker will be in place for single bosses but thats not possible for multibosses, what about people who lie and join saying they can do special roles, then when the group reaches that boss they are useless. Can you kick them? If yes will the LFR recognise which role was kicked and replace it properly?

    this is a complex question, but anet can put a info to players that they should have more than one gear available to change the type of the dps for different types of bosses or they going to fail, players at first time will not know what they going to face until they learn the raid, older players should teach them, everyone using the mm should know they going to face random players.

    if the raid really need that special role because of anet definition then the mm should look for someone at that role without losing the raid progression.
    a vote kick can be a good thing only if all the players accept it, the problem is toxic players using dps checks that can be a cancer.

    You havnt answered half my questions. IF its only 1 boss how will the LFR even make sure the boss can be opened.

    Older player should not be forced to teach new , but many choose to through guilds. What do you do if your LFR doesn't have any old players to help.

    I am talking about special roles that also double as a default position in the group. EG. A pusher at desmina that also heals. WIll the LFR be able to understand that the prevsious person who left was duoing as both pusher and heal, and search now for someone queued as push heal. Or will it just look for push, leaving the group down 1 heal. What if it cant find someone queued as both push and heal?

    If anet warns people they need 2 different dps builds, but they ignore it and only bring 1 what then? You do realize raids have an enrage timer. Some which will instakill you if you do not deal enough damage to beat it. What if someone in your group is not doing enough damage to beat the timer. What if it is causing the group to fail over and over? Isnt that person toxic by joining as a role they cannot do and causing the group to fail? Should they be kicked? Is it still toxic then?

    All in all, it would need a very complex algorithm to even come close to being effective at making useful groups and the amount of work it would take to make that happen seems excessive when LFG can perform almost the same function, with more agency to players at the cost of some convenience.

    it's better having a hard time doing a raid with randoms than never do it

    I disagree

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2020

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    Questions for OP

    How will role selecting work. BY self selecting roles or gear checking and auto placing roles?

    anet can define a minimum of roles for each raid to be possible to finish it, if it's possible to finish it with 1 or 2 healers then the mm should know it and search for players that signed as healers, gear checking should not be a thing, if players want to check everything they should make a manual raid, also this is toxic.

    It is possible to finish most raids with 0 heals. That does not mean 99% of the playerbase will be capable of doing the raid with no heals. In fact, most players would wipe within a few minutes without at least 1 healer. This is why I ask, what should the LFR ask for. In general 3 healers are considered too much for a raid, but there are many groups that do raid that NEED 3 healers to complete it.

    anet can define a minimum, simples as that, if you join as dps and want to change to healer if the raid will be easier with 3 healers and everyone on the raid agree, nothing is blocking you.
    it's 10 people i doubt there's no one that can't change

    You say gear check is toxic

    If its the former, what about players who say they are healer, but have dps gear. If its the latter, gear checking is controversial enough as it is. Will it ban you if you dont have good enough gear/stats? How will the LFR decide whats needed in the first place. E.g 1 heal vs 2 or even 3

    about the gear anet can implement a system and info that everyone should have at least a purple gear to do it, they can auto check if the player is using some healing power gear if they queue as healer or a minimum heal power, if not he can't queue as healer.
    they should know a minimum to finish it.

    players that want min max should do their own raid.

    And then immedatly say the game should gear check you.

    i said stats check and purple gear, a bare minimum, a gear check would be forcing players using all Minstrel
    like to join as healer you should pass the minimum check of xxx heal power
    or to join as dps xxx condi or power

    just a little filter, so no one join with weird stats and fake the role

    Is this LFR going to enfore the meta?

    meta should not be a thing.

    Will it demand each group has a druid or will it only request healers. If it lacks a druid, what happens when 3 scrappers join and the group has 0 might uptime.

    does the raid demand a druid or a healer? if a healer, the class should not matter, scrappers should not be queued as healers if they can't heal, if the dps is low and the party going to have a hard time does not matter, if they can finish it.
    if druid is a bad healer it's anet problem on balacing classes.

    You clearly have no idea how raids work then. It does matter if the dps is low. Too low dps and the boss will enrage, usually wiping everyone instantly.

    enrage timer is the most kitten thing on raids imo, this force dps meters toxic people on the game, a raid should be about mechanics not how you can dps.

    The druid is taken to give might to the entire group. Without any might you lose +750 power and condition damage massively reducing the groups dps. Raids are balanced around the assumption the whole group will have max might stacks the whole fight. I imagine anyone using a LFR will not beat the enrage timer on some bosses, especially largos without might. This is why meta exists. To make sure the group has the buff it needs to beat the raid.

    >

    So I ask again, do you demand a druid and ensure the group has might, giving a reasonable chance of cdlearing the fight? Or do you not ask for one, rejecting the meta but chancing you will get 3 scrapper healers who cannot give any might.

    it's not like druid is the only class that can buff might, also if you join as support/healer you should know that u need to buff and heal, if someone on the raid is already doing it you can always change if necessary;

    What about alacrity and quickness?
    There are multiple ways to obtain 100% quickness and alacrity, most of these roles also double as healer or dps. Will the lfr be able to adapt and changes its requirements for example if a hfb joins, removing the need for 1 healer but necessitating an alcren instead of boon chrono for alacrity.

    if someone want to min max stats they should make a manual raid, the mm should be for players that want to have fun and try to finish it, so everyone can enjoy end content even if having a harder time.

    Once again, raids are balanced around the expectation that the group will have permanent alacrity and quickness buffs. If you have a group without those buffs you lose more than half the squads damage. Most LFR groups will not be able to beat the bosses with no buffs. This once again shows you dont even understand the most basic stuff about raids.

    does not matter if they can't beat it, it's better than only 1% of the player doing it, at least they joined a raid and tried, also they can always talk to each other to try to change a class if needed.

    if buffs are really a necessity they can put a support/healer/dps role on the matchmaking

    so the support should know he is joining to buff, if the raid dont need it he can always change, gw2 is made to change builds on one click

    What about specilized roles?
    Many raid bosses need a special role, that often needs a special build in order to function. Will the LFR recognize these roles, what about roles where the player is expected to not only do the special mechanic, but also provide dps or heals. e.g pusher for desmina, lamp for qadim. How will it check the player who joins is suitable for both these jobs.

    the only way to kill the raid boss is with that role? players defined it or anet? if so something is very wrong with the class balance.
    if you can kill with other classes should it matter? min max players should do their own raid.

    Yes the only way to kill that boss is with that role. While several classes can hand kite on deimos, if you dont have someone who knows how to do it you cannot kill the boss. You will wipe within the first minute. This is true of several bosses who need special roles.

    so just because they going to fail first time does not mean they need to disband, they can just try until they learn.

    What about wing full clears?
    Will the LFR be limited to 1 boss only. How can it check that players can even open that boss. If it accounts for full wing clears, what about special mechanics there. Will it be able to put together a sufficient group for say, desmina that needs full condi dps and a special mechanics and then power dps for statues, and finally 3 special mechanics for dhuum. I assume gear checker will be in place for single bosses but thats not possible for multibosses, what about people who lie and join saying they can do special roles, then when the group reaches that boss they are useless. Can you kick them? If yes will the LFR recognise which role was kicked and replace it properly?

    this is a complex question, but anet can put a info to players that they should have more than one gear available to change the type of the dps for different types of bosses or they going to fail, players at first time will not know what they going to face until they learn the raid, older players should teach them, everyone using the mm should know they going to face random players.

    if the raid really need that special role because of anet definition then the mm should look for someone at that role without losing the raid progression.
    a vote kick can be a good thing only if all the players accept it, the problem is toxic players using dps checks that can be a cancer.

    You havnt answered half my questions. IF its only 1 boss how will the LFR even make sure the boss can be opened.

    Older player should not be forced to teach new , but many choose to through guilds. What do you do if your LFR doesn't have any old players to help.

    so older player that join with the MM should know that's for random players and can't rage, if he want he can always go and do it with his guild, this is a system for players without 10 people to play.

    I am talking about special roles that also double as a default position in the group. EG. A pusher at desmina that also heals. WIll the LFR be able to understand that the prevsious person who left was duoing as both pusher and heal, and search now for someone queued as push heal. Or will it just look for push, leaving the group down 1 heal. What if it cant find someone queued as both push and heal?

    it's a matchmaking not a 100% win rate raid making, of course people are gonna fail, but at least they tried, also they can always learn how to do it.

    If anet warns people they need 2 different dps builds, but they ignore it and only bring 1 what then? You do realize raids have an enrage timer. Some which will instakill you if you do not deal enough damage to beat it. What if someone in your group is not doing enough damage to beat the timer. What if it is causing the group to fail over and over? Isnt that person toxic by joining as a role they cannot do and causing the group to fail? Should they be kicked? Is it still toxic then?

    it's toxic to kick someone just because he is new or because of dps meters, now if he is ignoring everyone and not even trying, kicking is the option, also if someone join a raid with a big warning telling you to bring more than one gear, he should know he is joining a harder end game content and can't complain if they kick him or fail.

    All in all, it would need a very complex algorithm to even come close to being effective at making useful groups and the amount of work it would take to make that happen seems excessive when LFG can perform almost the same function, with more agency to players at the cost of some convenience.

    it's better having a hard time doing a raid with randoms than never do it

    I disagree

    you just back to the old topic " i don't want to use it so no one should"
    no one is forcing you use it, it's a system for players that don't have a 10 premade raid, like 99% of the player base, also everyone know that a raid is a end game content and will be hard, the matchmaking isn't to sure a win, it's to find people to group simple as that

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2020

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    Questions for OP

    How will role selecting work. BY self selecting roles or gear checking and auto placing roles?

    anet can define a minimum of roles for each raid to be possible to finish it, if it's possible to finish it with 1 or 2 healers then the mm should know it and search for players that signed as healers, gear checking should not be a thing, if players want to check everything they should make a manual raid, also this is toxic.

    It is possible to finish most raids with 0 heals. That does not mean 99% of the playerbase will be capable of doing the raid with no heals. In fact, most players would wipe within a few minutes without at least 1 healer. This is why I ask, what should the LFR ask for. In general 3 healers are considered too much for a raid, but there are many groups that do raid that NEED 3 healers to complete it.

    anet can define a minimum, simples as that, if you join as dps and want to change to healer if the raid will be easier with 3 healers and everyone on the raid agree, nothing is blocking you.

    And im asking you what that minimum should be. Since different groups need different amounts of healing. Some groups need 1 healer for a boss and other groups need 3. But the LFR cant know that, so what should it ask for. Very few people playing lfr are going to have the ability to swap to a healer on demand if they queue as dps.

    You say gear check is toxic

    If its the former, what about players who say they are healer, but have dps gear. If its the latter, gear checking is controversial enough as it is. Will it ban you if you dont have good enough gear/stats? How will the LFR decide whats needed in the first place. E.g 1 heal vs 2 or even 3

    about the gear anet can implement a system and info that everyone should have at least a purple gear to do it, they can auto check if the player is using some healing power gear if they queue as healer or a minimum heal power, if not he can't queue as healer.
    they should know a minimum to finish it.

    players that want min max should do their own raid.

    And then immedatly say the game should gear check you.

    i said stats check and purple gear, a bare minimum, a gear check would be forcing players using all Minstrel
    like to join as healer you should pass the minimum check of xxx heal power
    or to join as dps xxx condi or power

    just a little filter, so no one join with weird stats and fake the role

    That is exactly the definition of a gear check.

    Is this LFR going to enfore the meta?

    meta should not be a thing.

    Will it demand each group has a druid or will it only request healers. If it lacks a druid, what happens when 3 scrappers join and the group has 0 might uptime.

    does the raid demand a druid or a healer? if a healer, the class should not matter, scrappers should not be queued as healers if they can't heal, if the dps is low and the party going to have a hard time does not matter, if they can finish it.
    if druid is a bad healer it's anet problem on balacing classes.

    You clearly have no idea how raids work then. It does matter if the dps is low. Too low dps and the boss will enrage, usually wiping everyone instantly.

    enrage timer is the most kitten thing on raids imo, this force dps meters toxic people on the game, a raid should be about mechanics not how you can dps.

    Enrage timer is one of the core features of raids and is arguable the most important one that makes raids challenging. Otherwise players could bring 10 healers, leave them afk autoattacking the boss and ignore mechanics by healing through them. This would not be hard or challenging completely defeating the purpose of the raid. I think raids should be about both using the combat system (dps boons and heals) and doing mechanics.

    Regardless of whether you hate them or not. Raids do have an enrage timer. And your group does need to deal with it.

    The druid is taken to give might to the entire group. Without any might you lose +750 power and condition damage massively reducing the groups dps. Raids are balanced around the assumption the whole group will have max might stacks the whole fight. I imagine anyone using a LFR will not beat the enrage timer on some bosses, especially largos without might. This is why meta exists. To make sure the group has the buff it needs to beat the raid.

    >

    So I ask again, do you demand a druid and ensure the group has might, giving a reasonable chance of cdlearing the fight? Or do you not ask for one, rejecting the meta but chancing you will get 3 scrapper healers who cannot give any might.

    it's not like druid is the only class that can buff might, also if you join as support/healer you should know that u need to buff and heal, if someone on the raid is already doing it you can always change if necessary;

    It is one of the only classes that can give permanent might to the entire group on every boss. The other being tempest. Again, most people who would use LFR do NOT have multiple classes to swap too, let alone multiple healers.

    If people joining should know they need to buff might as a healer, then you say they should only queue as druid or tempest heal. Basically enforcing the meta. Because thats why people in LFG ask for a druid in the first place.

    What about alacrity and quickness?
    There are multiple ways to obtain 100% quickness and alacrity, most of these roles also double as healer or dps. Will the lfr be able to adapt and changes its requirements for example if a hfb joins, removing the need for 1 healer but necessitating an alcren instead of boon chrono for alacrity.

    if someone want to min max stats they should make a manual raid, the mm should be for players that want to have fun and try to finish it, so everyone can enjoy end content even if having a harder time.

    Once again, raids are balanced around the expectation that the group will have permanent alacrity and quickness buffs. If you have a group without those buffs you lose more than half the squads damage. Most LFR groups will not be able to beat the bosses with no buffs. This once again shows you dont even understand the most basic stuff about raids.

    does not matter if they can't beat it, it's better than only 1% of the player doing it, at least they joined a raid and tried, also they can always talk to each other to try to change a class if needed.

    It does matter. Like cyninja said if players try to raid in a horrible group setup with terrible boons and fail, which they will, they will get a horrible impression of raids and never want to go back.

    What about specilized roles?
    Many raid bosses need a special role, that often needs a special build in order to function. Will the LFR recognize these roles, what about roles where the player is expected to not only do the special mechanic, but also provide dps or heals. e.g pusher for desmina, lamp for qadim. How will it check the player who joins is suitable for both these jobs.

    the only way to kill the raid boss is with that role? players defined it or anet? if so something is very wrong with the class balance.
    if you can kill with other classes should it matter? min max players should do their own raid.

    Yes the only way to kill that boss is with that role. While several classes can hand kite on deimos, if you dont have someone who knows how to do it you cannot kill the boss. You will wipe within the first minute. This is true of several bosses who need special roles.

    so just because they going to fail first time does not mean they need to disband, they can just try until they learn.

    I am telling you if they do not have the proper build to do that mechanic they will die. Over and over. Nomatter how much they practice they will die.

    Here is a good example so you can maybe start to understand and stop arguing about this you have no idea of. Deimos is a raid boss. Once of his mechanics is he puts an aoe on the feet of the person furthest away from him. This aoe stacks 5 times, a few seconds pause and begins stacking again. 1 stack alone is enough to instakill an average dps player. They need to constantly keep moving and never stand in a stack to survive. However if they do this the aoe will be spread ALL over the arena, leaving no space for the group to fight the boss. So at minimum the person dealing with this aoe needs to stand still until 3 stacks are under their feet before they can move on.
    To do this they need alot of self heal and some damage absorption. On top of this, deimos does a oneshot attack. They need to be able to block it. You can see now hopefully why they need a special build and be experienced with the aoe mechanic to not wipe the whole group.

    What about wing full clears?
    Will the LFR be limited to 1 boss only. How can it check that players can even open that boss. If it accounts for full wing clears, what about special mechanics there. Will it be able to put together a sufficient group for say, desmina that needs full condi dps and a special mechanics and then power dps for statues, and finally 3 special mechanics for dhuum. I assume gear checker will be in place for single bosses but thats not possible for multibosses, what about people who lie and join saying they can do special roles, then when the group reaches that boss they are useless. Can you kick them? If yes will the LFR recognise which role was kicked and replace it properly?

    this is a complex question, but anet can put a info to players that they should have more than one gear available to change the type of the dps for different types of bosses or they going to fail, players at first time will not know what they going to face until they learn the raid, older players should teach them, everyone using the mm should know they going to face random players.

    if the raid really need that special role because of anet definition then the mm should look for someone at that role without losing the raid progression.
    a vote kick can be a good thing only if all the players accept it, the problem is toxic players using dps checks that can be a cancer.

    You havnt answered half my questions. IF its only 1 boss how will the LFR even make sure the boss can be opened.

    Older player should not be forced to teach new , but many choose to through guilds. What do you do if your LFR doesn't have any old players to help.

    so older player that join with the MM should know that's for random players and can't rage, if he want he can always go and do it with his guild, this is a system for players without 10 people to play.

    I am talking about special roles that also double as a default position in the group. EG. A pusher at desmina that also heals. WIll the LFR be able to understand that the prevsious person who left was duoing as both pusher and heal, and search now for someone queued as push heal. Or will it just look for push, leaving the group down 1 heal. What if it cant find someone queued as both push and heal?

    it's a matchmaking not a 100% win rate raid making, of course people are gonna fail, but at least they tried, also they can always learn how to do it.

    I have told you. You MUST have special mechanics covered or you will instawipe the group. anything less than 100% when it comes to these roles is worthless. you wont even get to try. You will die almost instantly every single time.

    If anet warns people they need 2 different dps builds, but they ignore it and only bring 1 what then? You do realize raids have an enrage timer. Some which will instakill you if you do not deal enough damage to beat it. What if someone in your group is not doing enough damage to beat the timer. What if it is causing the group to fail over and over? Isnt that person toxic by joining as a role they cannot do and causing the group to fail? Should they be kicked? Is it still toxic then?

    it's toxic to kick someone just because he is new or because of dps meters, now if he is ignoring everyone and not even trying, kicking is the option, also if someone join a raid with a big warning telling you to bring more than one gear, he should know he is joining a harder end game content and can't complain if they kick him or fail.

    It is not toxic. If that person fails to do the bare minimum damage needs to beat the boss, which is about 25% of what the class is capable of, they should not be in a raid. Like you said , they should know they are joining harder end game content and should not complain if they get kicked because they were unprepared. Whether that is bringing the wrong gear, or not learning how to play their class.

    All in all, it would need a very complex algorithm to even come close to being effective at making useful groups and the amount of work it would take to make that happen seems excessive when LFG can perform almost the same function, with more agency to players at the cost of some convenience.

    it's better having a hard time doing a raid with randoms than never do it

    I disagree

    no one is forcing you use it, it's a system for players that don't have a 10 premade raid, like 99% of the player base, also everyone know that a raid is a end game content and will be hard, the matchmaking isn't to sure a win, it's to find people to group simple as that

    With your version of matchmaking no group would ever ever have even the slightest chance to win. they would all fail, horribly. And as people realize they have no chance to win ever by joinging LFR they would stop using it. Very soon, it would be totally dead, just like the LFR in strike missions is.

    What you seem to refuse to understand is that raids have basic requirements in order to beat them. They are balanced around having these requirements fulfilled in your group. If you group does not fulfil these basic requirements you have no chance at all. It is pointless even trying. This is not bad game design nor is it toxic. These requirements are there because the content is suppose to be challenging and force you to take advantage of all the tools available to beat it. If these requirements did not exist, anyone who was choosing to fully use these tools would find raids to be extremely easy and have no challenge at all, which would defeat the point of raids themselves.

    A LFR that does not guarantee your squad has all these requirements met is useless as the group it forms has no chance of beating the boss. However, creating a LFR that meets these requirement is very difficult and has many unsolvable problems like the questions I originally gave to you. You however are totally unable to answer even a few.

    Here is a secret. I cannot answer them either. Neither I imagine can anyone in this thread. This is because these problems have no answer due to the way raids and groups work in this game. However most other people in this thread understand this. You however do not due to your total lack of understand of how raids work.

  • Tukaram.8256Tukaram.8256 Member ✭✭✭

    It sounds good in theory. My only concern would be the vast amount of players the system would need to mix & match decent groups.

    As a casual player I have just never had any interest in learning how raids work. There is more than enough open world content for me. And many of the attitudes in this thread also show me a lot of people I would not enjoy spending time with anyway ha ha

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2020

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    Questions for OP

    How will role selecting work. BY self selecting roles or gear checking and auto placing roles?

    anet can define a minimum of roles for each raid to be possible to finish it, if it's possible to finish it with 1 or 2 healers then the mm should know it and search for players that signed as healers, gear checking should not be a thing, if players want to check everything they should make a manual raid, also this is toxic.

    It is possible to finish most raids with 0 heals. That does not mean 99% of the playerbase will be capable of doing the raid with no heals. In fact, most players would wipe within a few minutes without at least 1 healer. This is why I ask, what should the LFR ask for. In general 3 healers are considered too much for a raid, but there are many groups that do raid that NEED 3 healers to complete it.

    anet can define a minimum, simples as that, if you join as dps and want to change to healer if the raid will be easier with 3 healers and everyone on the raid agree, nothing is blocking you.

    And im asking you what that minimum should be. Since different groups need different amounts of healing. Some groups need 1 healer for a boss and other groups need 3. But the LFR cant know that, so what should it ask for. Very few people playing lfr are going to have the ability to swap to a healer on demand if they queue as dps.

    You say gear check is toxic

    If its the former, what about players who say they are healer, but have dps gear. If its the latter, gear checking is controversial enough as it is. Will it ban you if you dont have good enough gear/stats? How will the LFR decide whats needed in the first place. E.g 1 heal vs 2 or even 3

    about the gear anet can implement a system and info that everyone should have at least a purple gear to do it, they can auto check if the player is using some healing power gear if they queue as healer or a minimum heal power, if not he can't queue as healer.
    they should know a minimum to finish it.

    players that want min max should do their own raid.

    And then immedatly say the game should gear check you.

    i said stats check and purple gear, a bare minimum, a gear check would be forcing players using all Minstrel
    like to join as healer you should pass the minimum check of xxx heal power
    or to join as dps xxx condi or power

    just a little filter, so no one join with weird stats and fake the role

    That is exactly the definition of a gear check.

    it's a stat check not a gear check, because on gw2 you can have multiple gears with multiple stats.

    Is this LFR going to enfore the meta?

    meta should not be a thing.

    Will it demand each group has a druid or will it only request healers. If it lacks a druid, what happens when 3 scrappers join and the group has 0 might uptime.

    does the raid demand a druid or a healer? if a healer, the class should not matter, scrappers should not be queued as healers if they can't heal, if the dps is low and the party going to have a hard time does not matter, if they can finish it.
    if druid is a bad healer it's anet problem on balacing classes.

    You clearly have no idea how raids work then. It does matter if the dps is low. Too low dps and the boss will enrage, usually wiping everyone instantly.

    enrage timer is the most kitten thing on raids imo, this force dps meters toxic people on the game, a raid should be about mechanics not how you can dps.

    Enrage timer is one of the core features of raids and is arguable the most important one that makes raids challenging. Otherwise players could bring 10 healers, leave them afk autoattacking the boss and ignore mechanics by healing through them. This would not be hard or challenging completely defeating the purpose of the raid. I think raids should be about both using the combat system (dps boons and heals) and doing mechanics.

    Regardless of whether you hate them or not. Raids do have an enrage timer. And your group does need to deal with it.

    if the 10 healers don't know the mechanics they going to wipe like u said :)

    The druid is taken to give might to the entire group. Without any might you lose +750 power and condition damage massively reducing the groups dps. Raids are balanced around the assumption the whole group will have max might stacks the whole fight. I imagine anyone using a LFR will not beat the enrage timer on some bosses, especially largos without might. This is why meta exists. To make sure the group has the buff it needs to beat the raid.

    >

    So I ask again, do you demand a druid and ensure the group has might, giving a reasonable chance of cdlearing the fight? Or do you not ask for one, rejecting the meta but chancing you will get 3 scrapper healers who cannot give any might.

    it's not like druid is the only class that can buff might, also if you join as support/healer you should know that u need to buff and heal, if someone on the raid is already doing it you can always change if necessary;

    It is one of the only classes that can give permanent might to the entire group on every boss. The other being tempest. Again, most people who would use LFR do NOT have multiple classes to swap too, let alone multiple healers.

    If people joining should know they need to buff might as a healer, then you say they should only queue as druid or tempest heal. Basically enforcing the meta. Because thats why people in LFG ask for a druid in the first place.

    What about alacrity and quickness?
    There are multiple ways to obtain 100% quickness and alacrity, most of these roles also double as healer or dps. Will the lfr be able to adapt and changes its requirements for example if a hfb joins, removing the need for 1 healer but necessitating an alcren instead of boon chrono for alacrity.

    if someone want to min max stats they should make a manual raid, the mm should be for players that want to have fun and try to finish it, so everyone can enjoy end content even if having a harder time.

    Once again, raids are balanced around the expectation that the group will have permanent alacrity and quickness buffs. If you have a group without those buffs you lose more than half the squads damage. Most LFR groups will not be able to beat the bosses with no buffs. This once again shows you dont even understand the most basic stuff about raids.

    does not matter if they can't beat it, it's better than only 1% of the player doing it, at least they joined a raid and tried, also they can always talk to each other to try to change a class if needed.

    It does matter. Like cyninja said if players try to raid in a horrible group setup with terrible boons and fail, which they will, they will get a horrible impression of raids and never want to go back.

    it's like saying people will hate dark souls because it's "too hard", if someone dislike hard content to begin with they should not even raid.

    What about specilized roles?
    Many raid bosses need a special role, that often needs a special build in order to function. Will the LFR recognize these roles, what about roles where the player is expected to not only do the special mechanic, but also provide dps or heals. e.g pusher for desmina, lamp for qadim. How will it check the player who joins is suitable for both these jobs.

    the only way to kill the raid boss is with that role? players defined it or anet? if so something is very wrong with the class balance.
    if you can kill with other classes should it matter? min max players should do their own raid.

    Yes the only way to kill that boss is with that role. While several classes can hand kite on deimos, if you dont have someone who knows how to do it you cannot kill the boss. You will wipe within the first minute. This is true of several bosses who need special roles.

    so just because they going to fail first time does not mean they need to disband, they can just try until they learn.

    I am telling you if they do not have the proper build to do that mechanic they will die. Over and over. Nomatter how much they practice they will die.

    Here is a good example so you can maybe start to understand and stop arguing about this you have no idea of. Deimos is a raid boss. Once of his mechanics is he puts an aoe on the feet of the person furthest away from him. This aoe stacks 5 times, a few seconds pause and begins stacking again. 1 stack alone is enough to instakill an average dps player. They need to constantly keep moving and never stand in a stack to survive. However if they do this the aoe will be spread ALL over the arena, leaving no space for the group to fight the boss. So at minimum the person dealing with this aoe needs to stand still until 3 stacks are under their feet before they can move on.
    To do this they need alot of self heal and some damage absorption. On top of this, deimos does a oneshot attack. They need to be able to block it. You can see now hopefully why they need a special build and be experienced with the aoe mechanic to not wipe the whole group.

    cool, so you learned the mechanics why other people can't?

    What about wing full clears?
    Will the LFR be limited to 1 boss only. How can it check that players can even open that boss. If it accounts for full wing clears, what about special mechanics there. Will it be able to put together a sufficient group for say, desmina that needs full condi dps and a special mechanics and then power dps for statues, and finally 3 special mechanics for dhuum. I assume gear checker will be in place for single bosses but thats not possible for multibosses, what about people who lie and join saying they can do special roles, then when the group reaches that boss they are useless. Can you kick them? If yes will the LFR recognise which role was kicked and replace it properly?

    this is a complex question, but anet can put a info to players that they should have more than one gear available to change the type of the dps for different types of bosses or they going to fail, players at first time will not know what they going to face until they learn the raid, older players should teach them, everyone using the mm should know they going to face random players.

    if the raid really need that special role because of anet definition then the mm should look for someone at that role without losing the raid progression.
    a vote kick can be a good thing only if all the players accept it, the problem is toxic players using dps checks that can be a cancer.

    You havnt answered half my questions. IF its only 1 boss how will the LFR even make sure the boss can be opened.

    Older player should not be forced to teach new , but many choose to through guilds. What do you do if your LFR doesn't have any old players to help.

    so older player that join with the MM should know that's for random players and can't rage, if he want he can always go and do it with his guild, this is a system for players without 10 people to play.

    I am talking about special roles that also double as a default position in the group. EG. A pusher at desmina that also heals. WIll the LFR be able to understand that the prevsious person who left was duoing as both pusher and heal, and search now for someone queued as push heal. Or will it just look for push, leaving the group down 1 heal. What if it cant find someone queued as both push and heal?

    it's a matchmaking not a 100% win rate raid making, of course people are gonna fail, but at least they tried, also they can always learn how to do it.

    I have told you. You MUST have special mechanics covered or you will instawipe the group. anything less than 100% when it comes to these roles is worthless. you wont even get to try. You will die almost instantly every single time.

    if only one class can do this role something is wrong with the game balance don't you think? there's nothing to do with the matchmaking

    If anet warns people they need 2 different dps builds, but they ignore it and only bring 1 what then? You do realize raids have an enrage timer. Some which will instakill you if you do not deal enough damage to beat it. What if someone in your group is not doing enough damage to beat the timer. What if it is causing the group to fail over and over? Isnt that person toxic by joining as a role they cannot do and causing the group to fail? Should they be kicked? Is it still toxic then?

    it's toxic to kick someone just because he is new or because of dps meters, now if he is ignoring everyone and not even trying, kicking is the option, also if someone join a raid with a big warning telling you to bring more than one gear, he should know he is joining a harder end game content and can't complain if they kick him or fail.

    It is not toxic. If that person fails to do the bare minimum damage needs to beat the boss, which is about 25% of what the class is capable of, they should not be in a raid. Like you said , they should know they are joining harder end game content and should not complain if they get kicked because they were unprepared. Whether that is bringing the wrong gear, or not learning how to play their class.

    All in all, it would need a very complex algorithm to even come close to being effective at making useful groups and the amount of work it would take to make that happen seems excessive when LFG can perform almost the same function, with more agency to players at the cost of some convenience.

    it's better having a hard time doing a raid with randoms than never do it

    I disagree

    no one is forcing you use it, it's a system for players that don't have a 10 premade raid, like 99% of the player base, also everyone know that a raid is a end game content and will be hard, the matchmaking isn't to sure a win, it's to find people to group simple as that

    With your version of matchmaking no group would ever ever have even the slightest chance to win. they would all fail, horribly. And as people realize they have no chance to win ever by joinging LFR they would stop using it. Very soon, it would be totally dead, just like the LFR in strike missions is.

    What you seem to refuse to understand is that raids have basic requirements in order to beat them. They are balanced around having these requirements fulfilled in your group. If you group does not fulfil these basic requirements you have no chance at all. It is pointless even trying. This is not bad game design nor is it toxic. These requirements are there because the content is suppose to be challenging and force you to take advantage of all the tools available to beat it. If these requirements did not exist, anyone who was choosing to fully use these tools would find raids to be extremely easy and have no challenge at all, which would defeat the point of raids themselves.

    A LFR that does not guarantee your squad has all these requirements met is useless as the group it forms has no chance of beating the boss. However, creating a LFR that meets these requirement is very difficult and has many unsolvable problems like the questions I originally gave to you. You however are totally unable to answer even a few due to your total lack of understand of how raids work.

    so let they fail horribly, there's not a problem in that, people who not like harder content will stop using it sure, but they also will lose the chance to get legendary set, it's not supposed to be easy in first place.
    people fail on strikes because there's not a role definition on the matchmaking, also there's not a real prize on the end after multiple fails, failing miserable just to get some gold? who will want that? now failing and get a real prize after sucessful, raids worth.
    how it's now, people who want to try can't because they don't have 10 people to play with.

    people should have in mind they are doing the hardest content, to get the better gear available, they need to have in mind they need to be prepared for all, so yes if they don't have enough gear, knowledge, they can go to fractals get some gear, learn about raids and back later.

    what's the point on getting all that and in the end can't play raids because they can't find players to play with? so they get stuck on world maps and fractal and stop playing.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2020

    if the 10 healers don't know the mechanics they going to wipe like u said :)

    They would not without a enrage timer they could just heal through the damage the boss do.

    And about the stat question no if you have to have xxx power/precision/ferocity and xxx condi/expertise/precision or xx heal/boon duration then there are very few stat choices you can take.

    A dps or a healer dont only rely on 1 stat to do their thing.

    Edit
    Anything in this thread can be done now you just have to take the time it takes to find 9 others mate and learn the mechanics like the other people did.

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2020

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    Questions for OP

    How will role selecting work. BY self selecting roles or gear checking and auto placing roles?

    anet can define a minimum of roles for each raid to be possible to finish it, if it's possible to finish it with 1 or 2 healers then the mm should know it and search for players that signed as healers, gear checking should not be a thing, if players want to check everything they should make a manual raid, also this is toxic.

    It is possible to finish most raids with 0 heals. That does not mean 99% of the playerbase will be capable of doing the raid with no heals. In fact, most players would wipe within a few minutes without at least 1 healer. This is why I ask, what should the LFR ask for. In general 3 healers are considered too much for a raid, but there are many groups that do raid that NEED 3 healers to complete it.

    anet can define a minimum, simples as that, if you join as dps and want to change to healer if the raid will be easier with 3 healers and everyone on the raid agree, nothing is blocking you.

    And im asking you what that minimum should be. Since different groups need different amounts of healing. Some groups need 1 healer for a boss and other groups need 3. But the LFR cant know that, so what should it ask for. Very few people playing lfr are going to have the ability to swap to a healer on demand if they queue as dps.

    You say gear check is toxic

    If its the former, what about players who say they are healer, but have dps gear. If its the latter, gear checking is controversial enough as it is. Will it ban you if you dont have good enough gear/stats? How will the LFR decide whats needed in the first place. E.g 1 heal vs 2 or even 3

    about the gear anet can implement a system and info that everyone should have at least a purple gear to do it, they can auto check if the player is using some healing power gear if they queue as healer or a minimum heal power, if not he can't queue as healer.
    they should know a minimum to finish it.

    players that want min max should do their own raid.

    And then immedatly say the game should gear check you.

    i said stats check and purple gear, a bare minimum, a gear check would be forcing players using all Minstrel
    like to join as healer you should pass the minimum check of xxx heal power
    or to join as dps xxx condi or power

    just a little filter, so no one join with weird stats and fake the role

    That is exactly the definition of a gear check.

    it's a stat check not a gear check, because on gw2 you can have multiple gears with multiple stats.

    The only way to get those stats, outside of a few select utilities/traits, is gear. Same difference.

    Is this LFR going to enfore the meta?

    meta should not be a thing.

    Will it demand each group has a druid or will it only request healers. If it lacks a druid, what happens when 3 scrappers join and the group has 0 might uptime.

    does the raid demand a druid or a healer? if a healer, the class should not matter, scrappers should not be queued as healers if they can't heal, if the dps is low and the party going to have a hard time does not matter, if they can finish it.
    if druid is a bad healer it's anet problem on balacing classes.

    You clearly have no idea how raids work then. It does matter if the dps is low. Too low dps and the boss will enrage, usually wiping everyone instantly.

    enrage timer is the most kitten thing on raids imo, this force dps meters toxic people on the game, a raid should be about mechanics not how you can dps.

    Enrage timer is one of the core features of raids and is arguable the most important one that makes raids challenging. Otherwise players could bring 10 healers, leave them afk autoattacking the boss and ignore mechanics by healing through them. This would not be hard or challenging completely defeating the purpose of the raid. I think raids should be about both using the combat system (dps boons and heals) and doing mechanics.

    Regardless of whether you hate them or not. Raids do have an enrage timer. And your group does need to deal with it.

    if the 10 healers don't know the mechanics they going to wipe like u said :)

    I did not say that. I said if there is no enrage or instakill they will ignore mechanics and heal through them.

    The druid is taken to give might to the entire group. Without any might you lose +750 power and condition damage massively reducing the groups dps. Raids are balanced around the assumption the whole group will have max might stacks the whole fight. I imagine anyone using a LFR will not beat the enrage timer on some bosses, especially largos without might. This is why meta exists. To make sure the group has the buff it needs to beat the raid.

    >

    So I ask again, do you demand a druid and ensure the group has might, giving a reasonable chance of cdlearing the fight? Or do you not ask for one, rejecting the meta but chancing you will get 3 scrapper healers who cannot give any might.

    it's not like druid is the only class that can buff might, also if you join as support/healer you should know that u need to buff and heal, if someone on the raid is already doing it you can always change if necessary;

    It is one of the only classes that can give permanent might to the entire group on every boss. The other being tempest. Again, most people who would use LFR do NOT have multiple classes to swap too, let alone multiple healers.

    If people joining should know they need to buff might as a healer, then you say they should only queue as druid or tempest heal. Basically enforcing the meta. Because thats why people in LFG ask for a druid in the first place.

    What about alacrity and quickness?
    There are multiple ways to obtain 100% quickness and alacrity, most of these roles also double as healer or dps. Will the lfr be able to adapt and changes its requirements for example if a hfb joins, removing the need for 1 healer but necessitating an alcren instead of boon chrono for alacrity.

    if someone want to min max stats they should make a manual raid, the mm should be for players that want to have fun and try to finish it, so everyone can enjoy end content even if having a harder time.

    Once again, raids are balanced around the expectation that the group will have permanent alacrity and quickness buffs. If you have a group without those buffs you lose more than half the squads damage. Most LFR groups will not be able to beat the bosses with no buffs. This once again shows you dont even understand the most basic stuff about raids.

    does not matter if they can't beat it, it's better than only 1% of the player doing it, at least they joined a raid and tried, also they can always talk to each other to try to change a class if needed.

    It does matter. Like cyninja said if players try to raid in a horrible group setup with terrible boons and fail, which they will, they will get a horrible impression of raids and never want to go back.

    it's like saying people will hate dark souls because it's "too hard", if someone dislike hard content to begin with they should not even raid.

    It is not too hard if you bring the basic things needed to beat the boss. It is if you lack them.

    What about specilized roles?
    Many raid bosses need a special role, that often needs a special build in order to function. Will the LFR recognize these roles, what about roles where the player is expected to not only do the special mechanic, but also provide dps or heals. e.g pusher for desmina, lamp for qadim. How will it check the player who joins is suitable for both these jobs.

    the only way to kill the raid boss is with that role? players defined it or anet? if so something is very wrong with the class balance.
    if you can kill with other classes should it matter? min max players should do their own raid.

    Yes the only way to kill that boss is with that role. While several classes can hand kite on deimos, if you dont have someone who knows how to do it you cannot kill the boss. You will wipe within the first minute. This is true of several bosses who need special roles.

    so just because they going to fail first time does not mean they need to disband, they can just try until they learn.

    I am telling you if they do not have the proper build to do that mechanic they will die. Over and over. Nomatter how much they practice they will die.

    Here is a good example so you can maybe start to understand and stop arguing about this you have no idea of. Deimos is a raid boss. Once of his mechanics is he puts an aoe on the feet of the person furthest away from him. This aoe stacks 5 times, a few seconds pause and begins stacking again. 1 stack alone is enough to instakill an average dps player. They need to constantly keep moving and never stand in a stack to survive. However if they do this the aoe will be spread ALL over the arena, leaving no space for the group to fight the boss. So at minimum the person dealing with this aoe needs to stand still until 3 stacks are under their feet before they can move on.
    To do this they need alot of self heal and some damage absorption. On top of this, deimos does a oneshot attack. They need to be able to block it. You can see now hopefully why they need a special build and be experienced with the aoe mechanic to not wipe the whole group.

    cool, so you learned the mechanics why other people can't?

    BECAUSE YOU NEED A SPECIAL BUILD AND A SPOT IN GROUP TO DO IT AND LFR WILL NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT.

    What about wing full clears?
    Will the LFR be limited to 1 boss only. How can it check that players can even open that boss. If it accounts for full wing clears, what about special mechanics there. Will it be able to put together a sufficient group for say, desmina that needs full condi dps and a special mechanics and then power dps for statues, and finally 3 special mechanics for dhuum. I assume gear checker will be in place for single bosses but thats not possible for multibosses, what about people who lie and join saying they can do special roles, then when the group reaches that boss they are useless. Can you kick them? If yes will the LFR recognise which role was kicked and replace it properly?

    this is a complex question, but anet can put a info to players that they should have more than one gear available to change the type of the dps for different types of bosses or they going to fail, players at first time will not know what they going to face until they learn the raid, older players should teach them, everyone using the mm should know they going to face random players.

    if the raid really need that special role because of anet definition then the mm should look for someone at that role without losing the raid progression.
    a vote kick can be a good thing only if all the players accept it, the problem is toxic players using dps checks that can be a cancer.

    You havnt answered half my questions. IF its only 1 boss how will the LFR even make sure the boss can be opened.

    Older player should not be forced to teach new , but many choose to through guilds. What do you do if your LFR doesn't have any old players to help.

    so older player that join with the MM should know that's for random players and can't rage, if he want he can always go and do it with his guild, this is a system for players without 10 people to play.

    I am talking about special roles that also double as a default position in the group. EG. A pusher at desmina that also heals. WIll the LFR be able to understand that the prevsious person who left was duoing as both pusher and heal, and search now for someone queued as push heal. Or will it just look for push, leaving the group down 1 heal. What if it cant find someone queued as both push and heal?

    it's a matchmaking not a 100% win rate raid making, of course people are gonna fail, but at least they tried, also they can always learn how to do it.

    I have told you. You MUST have special mechanics covered or you will instawipe the group. anything less than 100% when it comes to these roles is worthless. you wont even get to try. You will die almost instantly every single time.

    if only one class can do this role something is wrong with the game balance don't you think? there's nothing to do with the matchmaking

    No there is nothing wrong with balance. Not every class can heal, Not every class can give certain buffs. Not every class can do special mechanics and thats fine. It means even if a class is weaker one role, they can excell in another and still be useful in a raid. Its a good thing.

    If anet warns people they need 2 different dps builds, but they ignore it and only bring 1 what then? You do realize raids have an enrage timer. Some which will instakill you if you do not deal enough damage to beat it. What if someone in your group is not doing enough damage to beat the timer. What if it is causing the group to fail over and over? Isnt that person toxic by joining as a role they cannot do and causing the group to fail? Should they be kicked? Is it still toxic then?

    it's toxic to kick someone just because he is new or because of dps meters, now if he is ignoring everyone and not even trying, kicking is the option, also if someone join a raid with a big warning telling you to bring more than one gear, he should know he is joining a harder end game content and can't complain if they kick him or fail.

    It is not toxic. If that person fails to do the bare minimum damage needs to beat the boss, which is about 25% of what the class is capable of, they should not be in a raid. Like you said , they should know they are joining harder end game content and should not complain if they get kicked because they were unprepared. Whether that is bringing the wrong gear, or not learning how to play their class.

    All in all, it would need a very complex algorithm to even come close to being effective at making useful groups and the amount of work it would take to make that happen seems excessive when LFG can perform almost the same function, with more agency to players at the cost of some convenience.

    it's better having a hard time doing a raid with randoms than never do it

    I disagree

    no one is forcing you use it, it's a system for players that don't have a 10 premade raid, like 99% of the player base, also everyone know that a raid is a end game content and will be hard, the matchmaking isn't to sure a win, it's to find people to group simple as that

    With your version of matchmaking no group would ever ever have even the slightest chance to win. they would all fail, horribly. And as people realize they have no chance to win ever by joinging LFR they would stop using it. Very soon, it would be totally dead, just like the LFR in strike missions is.

    What you seem to refuse to understand is that raids have basic requirements in order to beat them. They are balanced around having these requirements fulfilled in your group. If you group does not fulfil these basic requirements you have no chance at all. It is pointless even trying. This is not bad game design nor is it toxic. These requirements are there because the content is suppose to be challenging and force you to take advantage of all the tools available to beat it. If these requirements did not exist, anyone who was choosing to fully use these tools would find raids to be extremely easy and have no challenge at all, which would defeat the point of raids themselves.

    A LFR that does not guarantee your squad has all these requirements met is useless as the group it forms has no chance of beating the boss. However, creating a LFR that meets these requirement is very difficult and has many unsolvable problems like the questions I originally gave to you. You however are totally unable to answer even a few due to your total lack of understand of how raids work.

    so let they fail horribly, there's not a problem in that, people who not like harder content will stop using it sure, but they also will lose the chance to get legendary set, it's not supposed to be easy in first place.
    how it's now, people who want to try can't because they don't have 10 people to play with.

    Noone will use it and you will have less chance getting 10 ppl together in LFR than in LFG just like strikes. If you still cannot understand now after ALL the massive wall of text explaining I have given you then I give up. You simply do not want to understand.

    If you ever in the future actually care about giving raiding a chance and actually want to learn how they work properly, I would be happy to explain them to you myself and help you get into raiding groups, provided you are willing to listen. Or I could direct you to guides made by much much more experienced players than me, who have summarized it all very well.

    However due to your constant nonsense arguments about toxicity, dps meters ect I have the feeling you do not want to learn anything and like so many others in the game, would rather continue to argue and flame about something you have never even tried.

    Either way GL with your gaming.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    Questions for OP

    How will role selecting work. BY self selecting roles or gear checking and auto placing roles?

    anet can define a minimum of roles for each raid to be possible to finish it, if it's possible to finish it with 1 or 2 healers then the mm should know it and search for players that signed as healers, gear checking should not be a thing, if players want to check everything they should make a manual raid, also this is toxic.

    It is possible to finish most raids with 0 heals. That does not mean 99% of the playerbase will be capable of doing the raid with no heals. In fact, most players would wipe within a few minutes without at least 1 healer. This is why I ask, what should the LFR ask for. In general 3 healers are considered too much for a raid, but there are many groups that do raid that NEED 3 healers to complete it.

    anet can define a minimum, simples as that, if you join as dps and want to change to healer if the raid will be easier with 3 healers and everyone on the raid agree, nothing is blocking you.

    And im asking you what that minimum should be. Since different groups need different amounts of healing. Some groups need 1 healer for a boss and other groups need 3. But the LFR cant know that, so what should it ask for. Very few people playing lfr are going to have the ability to swap to a healer on demand if they queue as dps.

    You say gear check is toxic

    If its the former, what about players who say they are healer, but have dps gear. If its the latter, gear checking is controversial enough as it is. Will it ban you if you dont have good enough gear/stats? How will the LFR decide whats needed in the first place. E.g 1 heal vs 2 or even 3

    about the gear anet can implement a system and info that everyone should have at least a purple gear to do it, they can auto check if the player is using some healing power gear if they queue as healer or a minimum heal power, if not he can't queue as healer.
    they should know a minimum to finish it.

    players that want min max should do their own raid.

    And then immedatly say the game should gear check you.

    i said stats check and purple gear, a bare minimum, a gear check would be forcing players using all Minstrel
    like to join as healer you should pass the minimum check of xxx heal power
    or to join as dps xxx condi or power

    just a little filter, so no one join with weird stats and fake the role

    That is exactly the definition of a gear check.

    it's a stat check not a gear check, because on gw2 you can have multiple gears with multiple stats.

    The only way to get those stats, outside of a few select utilities/traits, is gear. Same difference.

    you are talking about max stats check, im talking about minimum stat check

    Is this LFR going to enfore the meta?

    meta should not be a thing.

    Will it demand each group has a druid or will it only request healers. If it lacks a druid, what happens when 3 scrappers join and the group has 0 might uptime.

    does the raid demand a druid or a healer? if a healer, the class should not matter, scrappers should not be queued as healers if they can't heal, if the dps is low and the party going to have a hard time does not matter, if they can finish it.
    if druid is a bad healer it's anet problem on balacing classes.

    You clearly have no idea how raids work then. It does matter if the dps is low. Too low dps and the boss will enrage, usually wiping everyone instantly.

    enrage timer is the most kitten thing on raids imo, this force dps meters toxic people on the game, a raid should be about mechanics not how you can dps.

    Enrage timer is one of the core features of raids and is arguable the most important one that makes raids challenging. Otherwise players could bring 10 healers, leave them afk autoattacking the boss and ignore mechanics by healing through them. This would not be hard or challenging completely defeating the purpose of the raid. I think raids should be about both using the combat system (dps boons and heals) and doing mechanics.

    Regardless of whether you hate them or not. Raids do have an enrage timer. And your group does need to deal with it.

    if the 10 healers don't know the mechanics they going to wipe like u said :)

    I did not say that. I said if there is no enrage or instakill they will ignore mechanics and heal through them.

    The druid is taken to give might to the entire group. Without any might you lose +750 power and condition damage massively reducing the groups dps. Raids are balanced around the assumption the whole group will have max might stacks the whole fight. I imagine anyone using a LFR will not beat the enrage timer on some bosses, especially largos without might. This is why meta exists. To make sure the group has the buff it needs to beat the raid.

    >

    So I ask again, do you demand a druid and ensure the group has might, giving a reasonable chance of cdlearing the fight? Or do you not ask for one, rejecting the meta but chancing you will get 3 scrapper healers who cannot give any might.

    it's not like druid is the only class that can buff might, also if you join as support/healer you should know that u need to buff and heal, if someone on the raid is already doing it you can always change if necessary;

    It is one of the only classes that can give permanent might to the entire group on every boss. The other being tempest. Again, most people who would use LFR do NOT have multiple classes to swap too, let alone multiple healers.

    If people joining should know they need to buff might as a healer, then you say they should only queue as druid or tempest heal. Basically enforcing the meta. Because thats why people in LFG ask for a druid in the first place.

    What about alacrity and quickness?
    There are multiple ways to obtain 100% quickness and alacrity, most of these roles also double as healer or dps. Will the lfr be able to adapt and changes its requirements for example if a hfb joins, removing the need for 1 healer but necessitating an alcren instead of boon chrono for alacrity.

    if someone want to min max stats they should make a manual raid, the mm should be for players that want to have fun and try to finish it, so everyone can enjoy end content even if having a harder time.

    Once again, raids are balanced around the expectation that the group will have permanent alacrity and quickness buffs. If you have a group without those buffs you lose more than half the squads damage. Most LFR groups will not be able to beat the bosses with no buffs. This once again shows you dont even understand the most basic stuff about raids.

    does not matter if they can't beat it, it's better than only 1% of the player doing it, at least they joined a raid and tried, also they can always talk to each other to try to change a class if needed.

    It does matter. Like cyninja said if players try to raid in a horrible group setup with terrible boons and fail, which they will, they will get a horrible impression of raids and never want to go back.

    it's like saying people will hate dark souls because it's "too hard", if someone dislike hard content to begin with they should not even raid.

    It is not too hard if you bring the basic things needed to beat the boss. It is if you lack them.

    What about specilized roles?
    Many raid bosses need a special role, that often needs a special build in order to function. Will the LFR recognize these roles, what about roles where the player is expected to not only do the special mechanic, but also provide dps or heals. e.g pusher for desmina, lamp for qadim. How will it check the player who joins is suitable for both these jobs.

    the only way to kill the raid boss is with that role? players defined it or anet? if so something is very wrong with the class balance.
    if you can kill with other classes should it matter? min max players should do their own raid.

    Yes the only way to kill that boss is with that role. While several classes can hand kite on deimos, if you dont have someone who knows how to do it you cannot kill the boss. You will wipe within the first minute. This is true of several bosses who need special roles.

    so just because they going to fail first time does not mean they need to disband, they can just try until they learn.

    I am telling you if they do not have the proper build to do that mechanic they will die. Over and over. Nomatter how much they practice they will die.

    Here is a good example so you can maybe start to understand and stop arguing about this you have no idea of. Deimos is a raid boss. Once of his mechanics is he puts an aoe on the feet of the person furthest away from him. This aoe stacks 5 times, a few seconds pause and begins stacking again. 1 stack alone is enough to instakill an average dps player. They need to constantly keep moving and never stand in a stack to survive. However if they do this the aoe will be spread ALL over the arena, leaving no space for the group to fight the boss. So at minimum the person dealing with this aoe needs to stand still until 3 stacks are under their feet before they can move on.
    To do this they need alot of self heal and some damage absorption. On top of this, deimos does a oneshot attack. They need to be able to block it. You can see now hopefully why they need a special build and be experienced with the aoe mechanic to not wipe the whole group.

    cool, so you learned the mechanics why other people can't?

    BECAUSE YOU NEED A SPECIAL BUILD TO DO IT AND LFR WILL NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT.

    tell me about that special build? that special build is about one class? is about a gear? is about raid mechanics?

    if it's about one class with one gear it's balance problem
    if it's about raid mechanic everyone should be able to do it.

    What about wing full clears?
    Will the LFR be limited to 1 boss only. How can it check that players can even open that boss. If it accounts for full wing clears, what about special mechanics there. Will it be able to put together a sufficient group for say, desmina that needs full condi dps and a special mechanics and then power dps for statues, and finally 3 special mechanics for dhuum. I assume gear checker will be in place for single bosses but thats not possible for multibosses, what about people who lie and join saying they can do special roles, then when the group reaches that boss they are useless. Can you kick them? If yes will the LFR recognise which role was kicked and replace it properly?

    this is a complex question, but anet can put a info to players that they should have more than one gear available to change the type of the dps for different types of bosses or they going to fail, players at first time will not know what they going to face until they learn the raid, older players should teach them, everyone using the mm should know they going to face random players.

    if the raid really need that special role because of anet definition then the mm should look for someone at that role without losing the raid progression.
    a vote kick can be a good thing only if all the players accept it, the problem is toxic players using dps checks that can be a cancer.

    You havnt answered half my questions. IF its only 1 boss how will the LFR even make sure the boss can be opened.

    Older player should not be forced to teach new , but many choose to through guilds. What do you do if your LFR doesn't have any old players to help.

    so older player that join with the MM should know that's for random players and can't rage, if he want he can always go and do it with his guild, this is a system for players without 10 people to play.

    I am talking about special roles that also double as a default position in the group. EG. A pusher at desmina that also heals. WIll the LFR be able to understand that the prevsious person who left was duoing as both pusher and heal, and search now for someone queued as push heal. Or will it just look for push, leaving the group down 1 heal. What if it cant find someone queued as both push and heal?

    it's a matchmaking not a 100% win rate raid making, of course people are gonna fail, but at least they tried, also they can always learn how to do it.

    I have told you. You MUST have special mechanics covered or you will instawipe the group. anything less than 100% when it comes to these roles is worthless. you wont even get to try. You will die almost instantly every single time.

    if only one class can do this role something is wrong with the game balance don't you think? there's nothing to do with the matchmaking

    No there is nothing wrong with balance. Not every class can heal, Not every class can give certain buffs. Not every class can do special mechanics and thats fine. It means even if a class is weaker one role, they can excell in another and still be useful in a raid. Its a good thing.

    If anet warns people they need 2 different dps builds, but they ignore it and only bring 1 what then? You do realize raids have an enrage timer. Some which will instakill you if you do not deal enough damage to beat it. What if someone in your group is not doing enough damage to beat the timer. What if it is causing the group to fail over and over? Isnt that person toxic by joining as a role they cannot do and causing the group to fail? Should they be kicked? Is it still toxic then?

    it's toxic to kick someone just because he is new or because of dps meters, now if he is ignoring everyone and not even trying, kicking is the option, also if someone join a raid with a big warning telling you to bring more than one gear, he should know he is joining a harder end game content and can't complain if they kick him or fail.

    It is not toxic. If that person fails to do the bare minimum damage needs to beat the boss, which is about 25% of what the class is capable of, they should not be in a raid. Like you said , they should know they are joining harder end game content and should not complain if they get kicked because they were unprepared. Whether that is bringing the wrong gear, or not learning how to play their class.

    All in all, it would need a very complex algorithm to even come close to being effective at making useful groups and the amount of work it would take to make that happen seems excessive when LFG can perform almost the same function, with more agency to players at the cost of some convenience.

    it's better having a hard time doing a raid with randoms than never do it

    I disagree

    no one is forcing you use it, it's a system for players that don't have a 10 premade raid, like 99% of the player base, also everyone know that a raid is a end game content and will be hard, the matchmaking isn't to sure a win, it's to find people to group simple as that

    With your version of matchmaking no group would ever ever have even the slightest chance to win. they would all fail, horribly. And as people realize they have no chance to win ever by joinging LFR they would stop using it. Very soon, it would be totally dead, just like the LFR in strike missions is.

    What you seem to refuse to understand is that raids have basic requirements in order to beat them. They are balanced around having these requirements fulfilled in your group. If you group does not fulfil these basic requirements you have no chance at all. It is pointless even trying. This is not bad game design nor is it toxic. These requirements are there because the content is suppose to be challenging and force you to take advantage of all the tools available to beat it. If these requirements did not exist, anyone who was choosing to fully use these tools would find raids to be extremely easy and have no challenge at all, which would defeat the point of raids themselves.

    A LFR that does not guarantee your squad has all these requirements met is useless as the group it forms has no chance of beating the boss. However, creating a LFR that meets these requirement is very difficult and has many unsolvable problems like the questions I originally gave to you. You however are totally unable to answer even a few due to your total lack of understand of how raids work.

    so let they fail horribly, there's not a problem in that, people who not like harder content will stop using it sure, but they also will lose the chance to get legendary set, it's not supposed to be easy in first place.
    how it's now, people who want to try can't because they don't have 10 people to play with.

    Noone will use it and you will have less chance getting 10 ppl together in LFR than in LFG just like strikes. If you still cannot understand now after ALL the massive wall of text explaining I have given you then I give up. You simply do not want to understand.

    If you ever in the future actually care about giving raiding a chance and actually want to learn how they work properly, I would be happy to explain them to you myself and help you get into raiding groups, provided you are willing to listen. Or I could direct you to guides made by much much more experienced players than me, who have summarized it all very well.

    However due to your constant nonsense arguments about toxicity, dps meters ect I have the feeling you do not want to learn anything and like so many others in the game, would rather continue to argue and flame about something you have never even tried.

    Either way GL with your gaming.

    "noone will use it", i will, other people will, because they don't have a premade, if they can't get a premade like right now it's the only option can't you understand that?
    no one use lfg on raids!

    what is the point of making this thread if the lfg worked?

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    what is the point of making this thread if the lfg worked?

    LFG does work on EU but It's different for NA which is more casual leaning than EU. In which case, implementing matchmaking for raids with problems already listed in this very thread would fail "tremendously".

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    what is the point of making this thread if the lfg worked?

    LFG does work on EU but It's different for NA which is more casual leaning than EU. In which case, implementing matchmaking for raids with problems already listed in this very thread would fail "tremendously".

    the question here, those aren't problems, it's all about players wanting the perfect party, implying that a average party can't finish a raid.
    someone that want a perfect party on a matchmaking playing with randoms is simple toxic, if they want a perfect party they should join their guild and do it.

  • gdubze.6015gdubze.6015 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954

    I have completed raids and to be honest all i see in you're threads are, im elitist and dont want it to change because im ok with the current system, very narrowminded and shallow of you. Have a good day. You have put no solutions forward to the issues just throw more problems in the way. I have no time for people like you. I have over 10k hrs in this game

  • skarpak.8594skarpak.8594 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2020

    throwback to 2012-13. people bought berserkers gear so they can ping that when joining dungeons, but used their soldier gear in reality.
    what hinders people from getting some random gear which they queue with and then they just swap their gear template to their "build they want to play".

    what about balance changes, for example right now there are only two classes (necro and thief) which can do the 3 pylons on qadim². there are also other roles like kiter on qadim1 or kiter at deimos. what if a class suddenly can't do that anymore due to some change. you now have a system which needs constant observation so it doesn't break because of some patch.

    what if you queue for a wing where different stuff is needed. like you queue for w6 with 3 healers and a few power dps. then comes largos where condition dps is king, but there is also special stuff like you either need 100% a mesmer for portal or you can just stop raiding. you won't make it ever 3 healers when you do a 5 man each side split because the timer is tight and dps will be missing. then even if you beat it, afterwards you suddenly need a kiter for qadim...and in a new group even 2 so one can babysit.

    how do you handle toxicity in general if there is no commander? like when a player refuses to do something vital. kicking is toxic right, so there is no option for that.

    how do you handle boon removal. what if no one that queues has any of it and because of that the boss is simply not beatable. should such a system then tell you: hey, you can't queue for this boss because no boon removal. what if there is a player, but he doesn't get it or starts trolling because telling him "take boon removal on your class" is "toxic" and he just blocks you?

    how do you handle players which geared a tank, but for most of the bosses the mechanic who is tank is not defined by "highest thoughness gear".
    what if you queue as tank, but the druid is running minstrel gear and now he tanks even tho he queued in as healer?

    the question here, those aren't problems, it's all about players wanting the perfect party, implying that a average party can't finish a raid.

    the average player does 10 times less damage then top players. average >raiders< are able to kill bosses well in their comfort zone, those groups have said boons, but not permanent. you will often see that there is not even 70% boonuptime and average mightstacks of like 15.
    what will happen if you do not enforce some kind of groupsetup where boons are at least somewhat covered: the damage will pummel so far down that people won't finish anything on most bosses.

    you should try to get into some training discord and experience the mode and the game. then you will know what the people are talking about when they say: it won't work in gw2 without dumbing everything down to a level of a openworld boss like shadow behemoth.

    ...this is not WOW with clear healers, dps and tanks. gw2 has too many variables which would need to get covered. from players to different bosses in the same raidwing. it won't ever work without making the boss a target dummy in the middle.

    as i said before: want to try it out how it looks like -> queue random for boneskimmer. or get some experience in the actual raid so see why most players think the idea of LFR is kitten.
    there are other better ideas to make kitten more accessible (some kind of story mode for example)...but LFR is most definitly not the answer.

  • gdubze.6015gdubze.6015 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2020

    @skarpak.8594 ...this is not WOW with clear healers, dps and tanks.

    Then why on LFG do people always look for Tank Healers dps / support classes ? another person trying to put issues in the way when LFG is clearly looking for trinity teams! So this is like WOW. Honestly anet can make the selection of role based on what is needed to complete the raid designed the way they were made to be completed without the need of player intervention. Just like every other mmo has done since they began. If u dont like the system just make a team the normal way by invite and walk into the raid as normal.

  • gdubze.6015gdubze.6015 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2020

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    the truth is you guys don't want it because you don't want to other players enjoy it, because u want to feel good with your e-ego thinking that you are good because you can raid while others can't.

    This is exactly what im getting from all these so called issues that they keep throwing into the threads. Nothing to do with matchmaking or allowing other to access content. Not one solution put forward only issue after issue so the current system is never changed

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @zombyturtle.5980 said:
    I literally offered my help getting you into raid. But you would rather insult me and every other person who has explained over and over why your idea is stupid and wont work. You will not listen. I retract all offer of help . I will never give my time and energy to a toxic and rude person like you.

    If devs ever do implement a LFR I look forward to vg squads failing instantly because noone brought boonrip or condi dps, since you dont want 'perfect group', and you literally cant even damage the boss. I am sure you will blame that on raiders so called toxicity too somehow though.

    Welcome to the forums! :3

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2020

    W1 an intro raid for new players needs;
    Toughness based tank, might source for each sub, fury source for each sub, alacrity source for each sub, quickness source for each sub, protection source for each sub, warrior banners, 2 healers, 1 person who has a low cd aoe knockback, 2 condi dps, boonrip, enough cc to break multiple breakbars on short CD, a full group of power dps, 1-2 ranged dps, 1 person who can pull adds, 1 person who can perma immobalize multiple enemies, a flak kiter, 2 cannoneers, everyone to have gliding and updraft mastery.

    You will not beat the raid as a new group unless you have all of these things, with the exception of maybe warrior banners. You have 10 spots. What exactly is the LFR going to search for to make sure all these ESSENTIAL things are covered, no role is covered more than once, and that there are enough DPS players to beat the enrage.

    Again this is only for the very first introduction raid wing. Later wings are alot harder and have many more requirements.

    Do you people supporting this understand yet.