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Make A Raid Matchmaking System For Solo Players

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  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    After reading this thread again, it seems that the OP just created a fictitious issue in order to justify their own suggestion. It also seems fairly obvious that they have zero raiding experience nor have tried to gain any through the suggestions that have been given in this thread and the plethora of others like it. They're just falling the same rhetoric that all of the anti-raiders give when they want dumbed down raids or go on a "toxic raiders" rant. What exactly is the difference between having a LFG that lists the roles needed, including that all skill levels are welcome, versus the OP's matchmaking thing? If players are not lining up in droves for the LFG version, why would they for the OP's?

    My opinion is that this isn't an issue with forming groups at all but instead a lack of having a large pool of players that want to do challenging content and willing to adapt to said content. Strikes have been stated to be the new stepping stone to raids. How many players even try to perform their roles well? How many actually try to do the mechanics? I see DPS players that get out-DPS'd by support players. I also see players that just stand there on the boss and face tank damage; they don't even try to avoid it. The OP's suggestions won't resolve this and any groups created using this matchmaking system will quickly run into this and fall apart. This is one of the primary reasons that you see many LFG with requirements.

    it's not fictitious, it's the sad truth about the raider community, anyone that play know that, also there's no reason to fight so hard against a matchmaking to put new players on raids, that they are not even going to use because they have a pre-made, the only logical reason are because they are toxic and want to be a minority.
    lfg put away new players because they saw the toxic on titles of the groups and never look back simple as that.

    if someone sell raids you already know the low mindset of those people.

    2ra2qxorpgd51.png

    does not matter if pug will fail, some will succeed, it's a raid, it's supposed to be harder, new players will be willing to try and join without to have to deal with the toxic commanders, like i said before it's a matchmaking not a 100% win rate raid maker, also if they put minimion check on power or condi to dps and enter, it will be harder to see dps with lower dps than a support.

    just because you will not use it because you prefer a lfg, does not mean everyone else won't, you can still do your lfg and let other players choose to use it.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    it's not fictitious, it's the sad truth about the raider community, anyone that play know that, also there's no reason to fight so hard against a matchmaking to put new players on raids, that they are not even going to use because they have a pre-made, the only logical reason are because they are toxic and want to be a minority.
    lfg put away new players because they saw the toxic on titles of the groups and never look back simple as that.

    There are toxic raiders just as there are toxic casuals. Toxicity isn't exclusive to any particular type of content. The matchmaking system you suggested won't resolve anything and would just end up being a waste of resources.

    if someone sell raids you already know the low mindset of those people.

    That's a toxic thing to say.

    What's your point? Anet has made it clear that posting raid sell ads on LFG is acceptable. They're offering a service just like those who port people to the end of a JP, assist with achievements using squad markers, and do HP runs.

    does not matter if pug will fail, some will succeed, it's a raid, it's supposed to be harder, new players will be willing to try and join without to have to deal with the toxic commanders, like i said before it's a matchmaking not a 100% win rate raid maker, also if they put minimion check on power or condi to dps and enter, it will be harder to see dps with lower dps than a support.

    What will happen is that you'll get players of various degrees of skill levels who will put in varying degrees of effort. After several fails with little progression, the majority of these groups will fall apart. You already see it in strikes. You'll then have toxic players who will yell at each other.

    just because you will not use it because you prefer a lfg, does not mean everyone else won't, you can still do your lfg and let other players choose to use it.

    Do a poll then and see how many people would actually use your matchmaking system.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    it's not fictitious, it's the sad truth about the raider community, anyone that play know that, also there's no reason to fight so hard against a matchmaking to put new players on raids, that they are not even going to use because they have a pre-made, the only logical reason are because they are toxic and want to be a minority.
    lfg put away new players because they saw the toxic on titles of the groups and never look back simple as that.

    There are toxic raiders just as there are toxic casuals. Toxicity isn't exclusive to any particular type of content. The matchmaking system you suggested won't resolve anything and would just end up being a waste of resources.

    if someone sell raids you already know the low mindset of those people.

    That's a toxic thing to say.

    this is the truth even if it hurts

    What's your point? Anet has made it clear that posting raid sell ads on LFG is acceptable. They're offering a service just like those who port people to the end of a JP, assist with achievements using squad markers, and do HP runs.

    so if you pay them u can go afk because they will solo it for you? no they will need you to do right and finish with him, they are just leechers/scammers and should be ignored by everyone.

    does not matter if pug will fail, some will succeed, it's a raid, it's supposed to be harder, new players will be willing to try and join without to have to deal with the toxic commanders, like i said before it's a matchmaking not a 100% win rate raid maker, also if they put minimion check on power or condi to dps and enter, it will be harder to see dps with lower dps than a support.

    What will happen is that you'll get players of various degrees of skill levels who will put in varying degrees of effort. After several fails with little progression, the majority of these groups will fall apart. You already see it in strikes. You'll then have toxic players who will yell at each other.

    that's what happens when you join pugs, people with various degrees of skill levels, does not mean they can't finish it, if people leave because they can't accept a fail, the match making can search for others.

    just because you will not use it because you prefer a lfg, does not mean everyone else won't, you can still do your lfg and let other players choose to use it.

    Do a poll then and see how many people would actually use your matchmaking system.

    forums players are not all the players in game, sorry, if anet did an official pool inside the game you would get a real statistic

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2020

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    it's not fictitious, it's the sad truth about the raider community, anyone that play know that, also there's no reason to fight so hard against a matchmaking to put new players on raids, that they are not even going to use because they have a pre-made, the only logical reason are because they are toxic and want to be a minority.
    lfg put away new players because they saw the toxic on titles of the groups and never look back simple as that.

    There are toxic raiders just as there are toxic casuals. Toxicity isn't exclusive to any particular type of content. The matchmaking system you suggested won't resolve anything and would just end up being a waste of resources.

    if someone sell raids you already know the low mindset of those people.

    That's a toxic thing to say.

    this is the truth even if it hurts

    This is you being hypocritical.

    What's your point? Anet has made it clear that posting raid sell ads on LFG is acceptable. They're offering a service just like those who port people to the end of a JP, assist with achievements using squad markers, and do HP runs.

    so if you pay them u can go afk because they will solo it for you? no they will need you to do right and finish with him, they are just leechers and should be ignored by everyone.

    I don't even know what this response is about...

    does not matter if pug will fail, some will succeed, it's a raid, it's supposed to be harder, new players will be willing to try and join without to have to deal with the toxic commanders, like i said before it's a matchmaking not a 100% win rate raid maker, also if they put minimion check on power or condi to dps and enter, it will be harder to see dps with lower dps than a support.

    What will happen is that you'll get players of various degrees of skill levels who will put in varying degrees of effort. After several fails with little progression, the majority of these groups will fall apart. You already see it in strikes. You'll then have toxic players who will yell at each other.

    that's what happens when you join pugs, people with various degrees of skill levels, does not mean they can't finish it, if people leave because they can't accept a fail, the match making can search for others.

    It was never said that some would not be able to complete a raid encounter. I suggest you form a group of random players and see what it would actually be like.

    just because you will not use it because you prefer a lfg, does not mean everyone else won't, you can still do your lfg and let other players choose to use it.

    Do a poll then and see how many people would actually use your matchmaking system.

    forums players are not all the players in game, sorry, if anet did an official pool inside the game you would get a real statistic

    Sounds like an excuse.

    You're constantly ignoring and not addressing any faults given about your system. Not that it matters as your system will never be implemented. While it's interesting to argue about it, there's really no point.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    it's not fictitious, it's the sad truth about the raider community, anyone that play know that, also there's no reason to fight so hard against a matchmaking to put new players on raids, that they are not even going to use because they have a pre-made, the only logical reason are because they are toxic and want to be a minority.
    lfg put away new players because they saw the toxic on titles of the groups and never look back simple as that.

    There are toxic raiders just as there are toxic casuals. Toxicity isn't exclusive to any particular type of content. The matchmaking system you suggested won't resolve anything and would just end up being a waste of resources.

    if someone sell raids you already know the low mindset of those people.

    That's a toxic thing to say.

    this is the truth even if it hurts

    This is you being hypocritical.

    What's your point? Anet has made it clear that posting raid sell ads on LFG is acceptable. They're offering a service just like those who port people to the end of a JP, assist with achievements using squad markers, and do HP runs.

    so if you pay them u can go afk because they will solo it for you? no they will need you to do right and finish with him, they are just leechers and should be ignored by everyone.

    I don't even know what this response is about...

    they put alway new players from the lfg

    does not matter if pug will fail, some will succeed, it's a raid, it's supposed to be harder, new players will be willing to try and join without to have to deal with the toxic commanders, like i said before it's a matchmaking not a 100% win rate raid maker, also if they put minimion check on power or condi to dps and enter, it will be harder to see dps with lower dps than a support.

    What will happen is that you'll get players of various degrees of skill levels who will put in varying degrees of effort. After several fails with little progression, the majority of these groups will fall apart. You already see it in strikes. You'll then have toxic players who will yell at each other.

    that's what happens when you join pugs, people with various degrees of skill levels, does not mean they can't finish it, if people leave because they can't accept a fail, the match making can search for others.

    It was never said that some would not be able to complete a raid encounter. I suggest you form a group of random players and see what it would actually be like.

    that's the problem!! you don't find players on the lfg can't you understand that? the new players was put away because of those old players, if you try to find/make a raid there no one will join because they don't look there anymore!!

    and the old players will not join your raid because they are too good for you.

    t4 100 cm, you can join with pugs, you find players of all skills, they fail alot, some leave then you search for another until you finish it.

    the problem here is that you can't find players on lfg raids unless you are playing at EU because they are less toxic.

    just because you will not use it because you prefer a lfg, does not mean everyone else won't, you can still do your lfg and let other players choose to use it.

    Do a poll then and see how many people would actually use your matchmaking system.

    forums players are not all the players in game, sorry, if anet did an official pool inside the game you would get a real statistic

    Sounds like an excuse.

    You're constantly ignoring and not addressing any faults given about your system. Not that it matters as your system will never be implemented. While it's interesting to argue about it, there's really no point.

    how at max 50 votes of forum players, will define something, lmao?

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    forums players are not all the players in game, sorry, if anet did an official pool inside the game you would get a real statistic

    The players are already voting in-game by showing a clear preference for how they are grouping. They do it every single day, for weeks and months by now. Initially for the first 1-2 weeks, players tried to use the auto group feature, especially while the first strike was out (the one which good players can solo). By now, no one is using the auto group feature.

    There you have your statistic. You not wanting to accept this harsh reality is your problem.

    you want to compare a matchmaking with checks with a auto grouping feature without even a role definition where everyone can be a "dps", OK

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    it's not fictitious, it's the sad truth about the raider community, anyone that play know that, also there's no reason to fight so hard against a matchmaking to put new players on raids, that they are not even going to use because they have a pre-made, the only logical reason are because they are toxic and want to be a minority.
    lfg put away new players because they saw the toxic on titles of the groups and never look back simple as that.

    There are toxic raiders just as there are toxic casuals. Toxicity isn't exclusive to any particular type of content. The matchmaking system you suggested won't resolve anything and would just end up being a waste of resources.

    if someone sell raids you already know the low mindset of those people.

    That's a toxic thing to say.

    this is the truth even if it hurts

    This is you being hypocritical.

    What's your point? Anet has made it clear that posting raid sell ads on LFG is acceptable. They're offering a service just like those who port people to the end of a JP, assist with achievements using squad markers, and do HP runs.

    so if you pay them u can go afk because they will solo it for you? no they will need you to do right and finish with him, they are just leechers and should be ignored by everyone.

    I don't even know what this response is about...

    they put alway new players from the lfg

    They kick people who do not read their LFG description or intentional misrepresent themselves as meeting any requirements.

    does not matter if pug will fail, some will succeed, it's a raid, it's supposed to be harder, new players will be willing to try and join without to have to deal with the toxic commanders, like i said before it's a matchmaking not a 100% win rate raid maker, also if they put minimion check on power or condi to dps and enter, it will be harder to see dps with lower dps than a support.

    What will happen is that you'll get players of various degrees of skill levels who will put in varying degrees of effort. After several fails with little progression, the majority of these groups will fall apart. You already see it in strikes. You'll then have toxic players who will yell at each other.

    that's what happens when you join pugs, people with various degrees of skill levels, does not mean they can't finish it, if people leave because they can't accept a fail, the match making can search for others.

    It was never said that some would not be able to complete a raid encounter. I suggest you form a group of random players and see what it would actually be like.

    that's the problem!! you don't find players on the lfg can't you understand that? the new players was put away because of those old players, if you try to find/make a raid there no one will join because they don't look there anymore!!

    You don't find new players often because typically they go to the training guilds as it's more efficient to have someone experienced lead a group rather than a full group of inexperienced players trying to attempt it. You also have provided zero evidence that things would be any different with your matchmaking system. You have no evidence that players would actually use it.

    and the old players will not join your raid because they are too good for you.

    t4 100 cm, you can join with pugs, you find players of all skills, they fail alot, some leave then you search for another until you finish it.

    the problem here is that you can't find players on lfg raids unless you are playing at EU because they are less toxic.

    just because you will not use it because you prefer a lfg, does not mean everyone else won't, you can still do your lfg and let other players choose to use it.

    Do a poll then and see how many people would actually use your matchmaking system.

    forums players are not all the players in game, sorry, if anet did an official pool inside the game you would get a real statistic

    Sounds like an excuse.

    You're constantly ignoring and not addressing any faults given about your system. Not that it matters as your system will never be implemented. While it's interesting to argue about it, there's really no point.

    how at max 50 votes of forum players, will define something, lmao?

    The votes can give you a general idea on how things may turn out in a player wide survey. It wouldn't be 100% reliable but more relevant than you going off on your own opinion.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    he is showing that you don't need the perfect party to finish something, a mm will not make a perfect party, it's about making a base party, will take longer to finish a raid than a perfect premade, for sure, but at least players will have the chance to play it.

    I understand the purpose of the post that I quoted. It presented a single specific example to prove that a full raidsquad following definite builds is not necessary to defeat raid bosses. What I still consider unreasonable, is the extrapolation that this means a matchmaking system as suggested in the OP will be a success in gw2. The kind of person that would sit down to solo a raidboss for 4 consecutive hours is, at least according to my observation, representative of a tiny fraction of the total playerbase. Furthermore, players with an attitude similiar to that of someone who would clear a raidboss solo, are playing the content already. While an automatic grouping system for raids promises to be of benefit specifically to people who currently are not playing the content.

  • @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    [...} it's better trying and failing than never even enter a raid in their game life, because of the toxic players premade raids, show proof, dps meters, all that show how current raiders are toxic and because of that raid content is dead, because noone want to join and play with those guys, there's nothing to do with raid being harder. [...]

    We sure must be really toxic to invite new players to join our Raid static if we are missing a member - we could also just dont care and do the bosses with 9 man. I never encountered any toxic behavior there, even if the new guy messed up several times in a row or someone of us did.

  • Not sure what part of NA people are playing on. I frequently full clear from the lfg with little problems during the week. I just tag up , post an lfg: w5 fc lf tanks , druid g2 kite, cdps gods . Ping role and kp. Ezpz

    Yeh if you post some weird stuff on the lfg people might not join. Like vg semi exp lf ranged dps ( I've seen this before and have no idea what it does ).

    Yeh sometimes it takes longer to fill certain wings but that's fine. I also use my guild , RA , and other discords to find players.

    Mmr for raids sounds interesting , but the target audience cannot effectively use the product. You would need a gear check to que up as a healer and tank to start and by that point a I can just discriminate between tank and dps on my own. The test bed was already made in strikes and the matchmaking there is a meme. I tried every once in a while, but leading my own instances content has the best results.

    Long time ago I was the boon herald looking to get into raids. I got my own tag and got to work. Years later I don't regret that decision and wished I made it earlier. From my perspective back then ,a matching system would have gotten me into more instances and possible kills , but there are no guarantees the squad will make any progress. For example a bad kiter on qadim will nuke the raid in under a minute so 8 other people get nothing out of the run.

    Lots of things to consider , but dev time being finite and the barrier to entry being hitting the p button already I would say matchmake is not worth the man hours. In a world where time was free then yes more options sounds good.

  • @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    forums players are not all the players in game, sorry, if anet did an official pool inside the game you would get a real statistic

    The players are already voting in-game by showing a clear preference for how they are grouping. They do it every single day, for weeks and months by now. Initially for the first 1-2 weeks, players tried to use the auto group feature, especially while the first strike was out (the one which good players can solo). By now, no one is using the auto group feature.

    There you have your statistic. You not wanting to accept this harsh reality is your problem.

    you want to compare a matchmaking with checks with a auto grouping feature without even a role definition where everyone can be a "dps", OK

    so have you ever done a raid the thing is there is nothing preventing you from making an lfg and get random ppl . thinkl of if the matchmaking system would drop some bearbows(core rangers only uses longbow and soldier gear and bear ) and minion mancher necros you never reach the thing is many mechs can be outhealed the timer is preventing this other wise you could jsut have 10 mm necros afk soloing it. like i did an fight with keep construct noticed our daredevil had way to low dps for a thief like like lower than if he just used auto turned out he had no exotic gear but white gear he started with with some blue and green acc . in this case you have 1 person whos essentially leeching before arc this was common as how could ppl know you did anything . you are a toxic casual who wants your way but you forget something this system would be unused pretty fast as many who drop in would have no idea what to do and that could be solved by banning static that you must use matchmaking but that would end up in ppl just stop raiding. its why training guilds exists someone experianced gets to choose to teach rather than it being something they have to do and alot of ppl will also ignore it becuse they have this thinking ( i myself had it and i am bit new to raiding like 94li and low confidence had that i am super strong open world this will be easy mentallity) wich leads them to ignore that mechanics exists for open world hasnt really done much in that area . so they would easly get overwhelmed and then frustrated and then just give up on the mode for its to hard

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    TL/DR:
    In GW2 you cannot create a matchmaker with checks, because the game has nothing to check for. That's because the things that need to be checked are defined outside game.

    I actually agree with you (and everyone else) who thinks the matchmaking tool will be an utter failure, but to play devil's advocate on behalf of the OP: sure, these things are currently defined outside of the game, but the devs could simply co-opt this information and put it into the build checker OP proposes.

    The hilarious thing is, OP's suggestion would require ANet to literally hard code the build and gear meta into the game, this same meta that OP claims is so stupid and toxic. He keeps accusing doubters of being meta elitists, but it's OP's own idea that would bring the player-created meta officially into the game's code. The low logical power of this idea is astounding.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2020

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    TL/DR:
    In GW2 you cannot create a matchmaker with checks, because the game has nothing to check for. That's because the things that need to be checked are defined outside game.

    I actually agree with you (and everyone else) who thinks the matchmaking tool will be an utter failure, but to play devil's advocate on behalf of the OP: sure, these things are currently defined outside of the game, but the devs could simply co-opt this information and put it into the build checker OP proposes.

    Not without completely redoing the whole class system from scratch. And without redoing the encounters as well, because in a lot of cases the roles needed depend on strategy used - so you'd basically need to hardcode the strategies as well.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • OP complaining about LFG is laughable. I got into a group 30 mins before reset, we got a full squad in 10 mins and were in on the dot after reset and cleared W1, 2 and 4 (w/o Deimos) and i had to drop after KC in W3 because i was falling asleep at my desk. Before I was doing this, I joined RA and was getting myself into training and practice runs to get experience.

  • @Despot.3048

    Sounds good man. Glad you joined and best of luck. That's a really good community.

    Cheers

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    TL/DR:
    In GW2 you cannot create a matchmaker with checks, because the game has nothing to check for. That's because the things that need to be checked are defined outside game.

    I actually agree with you (and everyone else) who thinks the matchmaking tool will be an utter failure, but to play devil's advocate on behalf of the OP: sure, these things are currently defined outside of the game, but the devs could simply co-opt this information and put it into the build checker OP proposes.

    Not without completely redoing the whole class system from scratch. And without redoing the encounters as well, because in a lot of cases the roles needed depend on strategy used - so you'd basically need to hardcode the strategies as well.

    Exactly. The spec/gear meta is merely an extension of the overall strategy meta. It's kinda sad that OP doesn't see how instituting gear checks and build checks would literally hard code the 'toxic' meta into the game. It would, as you mentioned, essentially cement a certain strategy meta into the newer folks LFR would be designed for, which spells certain disaster (in addition to horrendous queue times) for the vast majority of such folk.

  • @OP
    If you want to raid, play in EU. Otherwise, getting 10 players through LFG in NA is something you must forget.

  • @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    it's too much to ask? everyone should enjoy raids / end game content.

    not everyone want to join a guild or have 10 friends to raid.

    also will kill the "raid sellers" on the lobby.
    kill the show proof players

    random raids - MATCHMAKING
    specific raids - MATCHMAKING

    if someone leaves just re-queue his slot to replace him

    guild players don't need to use it.

    Sure let's do it. At least it will filter all the people that cannot play the game, so that they all end up together and die together for hours without even knowing why.

    Experienced players won't use this because nobody wants to queue with rands outside a training. It's literally as if sPvP queued top 10 players against silver or gold players (It does sometimes). So you'll have ten noobs, 3/4 of them not running the right builds and the 9/10 of those running the right build not knowing rotation/how to use it. Have fun doing the boss, I personally don't care since I won't use it.

    Or alternatively you actually invest efforts into learning to raid and you will easely raid.

  • but if you truely want to fix it is to make it absolutly impossible to kick anyone unless that person is offline

  • Walle.6045Walle.6045 Member
    edited August 19, 2020

    I do not think its a bad idea.

    It's just a lot of work for Arenanet to actually put out successfully.

    As others have mentioned the raids have a certain level of difficulty to them and because of that have pigeonholed classes.
    The only way to actually make a successful raid queue system would to essentially re-design all the raids to make them easier.

    This would in turn upset the players who enjoy the challenge.

    The ideal solution would to make two separate raid tiers, story mode and the current and adjust rewards accordingly, however, that is a great deal of work.

  • So I will try to not be rude this time.
    In strikes, there already is some sort of matchmaking system. But it isnt working very well.
    1) it takes more time then using lfg
    2) generaly players are way worse and it takes longer time/much more fails

    Reason is this. Players that actualy do the content and are experianced want to play with experianced players. They want to decide who is "worthy" of their time. Thats why they take fate into their own hands instead of trusting the system.
    Also if you join group with some matchmaking tool, everyone might not be on the same page.
    So that means that players that will actualy use this tool are those that cannot or dont want to participate in LFG groups. This will create bad publicity for raids since new players will all see the forst parts of raid comunity.

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭

    The only way I can conceivably see Matchmaking work, would be for Arenanet to add individual queues for what you are going in as, and it'll check for your gear.

    Like, you'll need a higher toughness (1300+) if you want to join the Tank Queue.
    You'll need a higher healing power (I dunno, 1300+) if you want to join the Healer Queue.
    And DPS can NOT have either of the above mentioned healing and tank stats.

    And everything else goes from there on out.

    Yep, that's the minimum. Things like traits could still tick up and ruin stat allocations (oh look your trait made you the tank, wow you should really learn not to run that...).

    Toss in a mandatory 10 minute (5 minute if I really wanted to reduce the toxic levels building up) timer before anyone could vote to kick another squad member out, and you get pug raids. People will mercilessly question what everyone is running, there will be wipe after wipes due to the imbalanced DPS not filling all the roles, or having sub-optimal gear.

    But...

    It could bring in the vets who maybe like that masochistic angle, and find new talent in pubs, looking out for randoms who actually do well and bring them into the guilds they are running raids with.

    Just my initial thoughts.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sykper.6583 said:
    The only way I can conceivably see Matchmaking work, would be for Arenanet to add individual queues for what you are going in as, and it'll check for your gear.

    Like, you'll need a higher toughness (1300+) if you want to join the Tank Queue.
    You'll need a higher healing power (I dunno, 1300+) if you want to join the Healer Queue.
    And DPS can NOT have either of the above mentioned healing and tank stats.

    What about non-heal support? What about special roles, like secondary tank for desmina, hand kiter for Deimos, etc? How would the matchmaker deal with situations where the group setup needs to change between bosses? How about potential alternate strats/group setups for bosses? A workable matchmaking system needs to be able to cover for all that, because if it's going to cause more problems than it solves, noone's going to use it.

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    but if you truely want to fix it is to make it absolutly impossible to kick anyone unless that person is offline

    It would simply push any experienced player away from ever using that feature. Even if you mean that change to affect not just this "matchmaking" system but all LFGs as well, it would only kill pugs - some players would find statics, and those unable to do so would probably stop raiding at all. And for new/inexperienced players it would be even harder to find a group than it is now. Which is hardly a desired ending.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    but if you truely want to fix it is to make it absolutly impossible to kick anyone unless that person is offline

    I can already see the trolling that would cause. I mean I remember back in release days doing Arah once and this leader went afk in a corner demanding payment by the other players in order to continue. Back then, kicking the leader would kick everyone outside the dungeon, so after finishing the first few bosses he started extorting the group to pay him gold otherwise he wouldn't participate anymore. Fun times.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    but if you truely want to fix it is to make it absolutly impossible to kick anyone unless that person is offline

    We had that in the past. It was a disaster. There is a reason Arenanet went away from that system.

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Sykper.6583 said:
    The only way I can conceivably see Matchmaking work, would be for Arenanet to add individual queues for what you are going in as, and it'll check for your gear.

    Like, you'll need a higher toughness (1300+) if you want to join the Tank Queue.
    You'll need a higher healing power (I dunno, 1300+) if you want to join the Healer Queue.
    And DPS can NOT have either of the above mentioned healing and tank stats.

    What about non-heal support? What about special roles, like secondary tank for desmina, hand kiter for Deimos, etc? How would the matchmaker deal with situations where the group setup needs to change between bosses? How about potential alternate strats/group setups for bosses? A workable matchmaking system needs to be able to cover for all that, because if it's going to cause more problems than it solves, noone's going to use it.

    Yep these are all specific issues, I think whatever 'Beta' matchmaking this would be wouldn't cover Wing 5 without more code. I'm more or less looking at this from a first 3 wings perspective. But it helps to keep in mind the original intent of the encounters, groups for Gorseval now would find enough DPS to skip gliding but in these pug raids which I fully expect to be un-optimal the check might not be reached with the imbalanced 'DPS' folks not having all the boons needed.

    So when you talk about Wing 4 for Hand Kiting, the hand-kite build was eventually developed and molded when in reality the kiter would be constantly swapped in the OG days. I imagine whoever queues up for Wing 4 might consider bringing along hand-kite gear during the run, or it was discussed by the time the pug group miraculously killed Samarog. But that's my point in all of this, having the general pug population realize just how bad it is in a matchmaking system, and realizing that with another system that makes it easier on them to queue into raiding not giving them what they want, they should realize the issue isn't with the raids but their own builds and what they can bring. Optimistic but very unlikely.

    Matchmaking should only cover the very basics, let the folks inside work out the rest. After all now they are 10 folks in a squad matched, they got a tank, they got a healer or two, probably two. Figure it out from there, sink or swim!

    If successful, maybe have a unique tech for Wing 5 to include a secondary tank slot or something. Start small, expand later.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2020

    @Sykper.6583 said:
    But that's my point in all of this, having the general pug population realize just how bad it is in a matchmaking system, and realizing that with another system that makes it easier on them to queue into raiding not giving them what they want, they should realize the issue isn't with the raids but their own builds and what they can bring. Optimistic but very unlikely.

    Remember, the system would be for players that have trouble getting into a proper LFG now, not for experienced ones (those would not be using this system, as it would be vastly inferior to both current LFG and to having a static). So, a more likely result would be that the people that are new to raids would start with that system, take a look, decide that raids are a complete kittenshow, and not bother with them ever again.

    Matchmaking should only cover the very basics, let the folks inside work out the rest. After all now they are 10 folks in a squad matched, they got a tank, they got a healer or two, probably two. Figure it out from there, sink or swim!

    Raid encounters are already hard enough for new players to figure out without adding one more layer of (unintuitive) difficulty for them to figure out.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm just throwing out the most likely option for Arenanet if they were to pursue this path. I 100% agree a full-loaded Matchmaking that takes into account every variable is absolutely not going to happen, not with the resources they allocate to instanced content anyways.

    Bluntly, there's zero chance that Raids or Strikes will see anything robust unless development actually changes their stance on PvE as a whole.

  • Shaogin.2679Shaogin.2679 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2020

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @skarpak.8594 said:
    with that attitude the guilds are probably also glad that you are not trying to join.
    no one likes egoistic people which demand that content gets changed so it fits their agenda.

    also will kill the "raid sellers" on the lobby.
    kill the show proof players

    who is the toxic one? "others not playing like i want to play? heh get rid of them!"
    toxic casuals are destroying the game tbh.

    egoistic people are the ones who don't want to other people have a try on raids because my guild only and no matchmaking for u

    You don't need a guild to do raids. You don't even need the commander tag. Just create LFG called "everyone welcome" and you will get the same LFR experience. And if you're on NA servers then my condolences...

    the problem is lfg don't work as a matchmaking

    And what exactly is this magical queue going to offer that you already couldn't do yourself? If you want to search for 3 healers, simply write LF 3 healers. If you don't care about roles simply put yourself on LFG and say wing 1 and wait for people to join. This experience is exactly the same as if you matchmade.

    because lfg take ages to find? imagine u doing pvp/wvw and try to manual find players for every team lmao

    Actually, the LFG is a great tool. So far, I have completed all of the legendary armor achievements simply by using LFG. Fact is, all the tools necessary for a player with 0 experience to get in to raiding are already there. The LFG tool definitely works for this purpose, as well as Discord communities such as Raid Academy. It really is incredibly easy to get into raiding with just a minimal amount of effort right now. Also, the PvP matchmaker system is the root of about 90% of the issues players have in PvP. The matchmaker system forces players to be grouped up with bots, afk farmers, trolls, and generally toxic players. If PvP were to simply use the LFG tool instead, then those types of players would not be able to find their way into other players' groups anymore, and PvP would eventually become less toxic. In fact, we can already see how great this works simply by looking at the automated tournaments. Personally, the groups I wind up with during automated tournaments have been very pleasant and, win or lose, we have a great time.

    And finally, I offer a solution to your apparent dilemma. Join my guild. I host training and full clear runs all the time for fractals and raids. Allow me to show you how to use the tools available, and perhaps I can change your mind on this subject as well as any others that see raids as this impossible barrier.

    Doc Von Doom

  • FURYY.5986FURYY.5986 Member
    edited August 27, 2020

    Dang it's actually quite impressive to see how much you're stick to your idea and how much you're convinced that it'll work although I'm pretty sure you have little to no experience in raids.
    Even if your tool does happen to exist, you yourself will end up not even using it in the end because you'll encounter the sames issues as the actual LFG. Builds being too specific, requirements too high, ...
    Starting raids isnt even that difficult as solo player through LFG if you invest your time a little bit into training yourself and understanding how the gameplay actually works.

    I saw you stating that meta shouldnt be a thing, I think you're missing the point of the meta there:
    -Meta is actually a thing that automatically exists in every game, it's just the "most effective tactic avaiable", it speaks by itself seriously. As long as there's a diversity of build and stats, there will be a meta.
    -Meta builds are there for a purpose, to simplify people life so that they dont actually have to go through the pain of theorycrafting the whole meta and compositions by themselves. This way the raids entrance will be much easier for people who seek to get in the raids. There are plenty enough ressources on the net for people who actually WANT to understand and play the game properlly.
    You want to get into raids? Just train a class, know why you play that class and then join training/low requirement groups or whisp commies to get into raids groups if you dont meet the requirements. Some will accept you, others won't but it's w/e as long as you enter in a group in the end.

    Diving into the raids just blindly isnt the way to go. Thoses are a bit harder than the average content yeah but it's not THAT hard neither.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    @FURYY.5986 said:
    Dang it's actually quite impressive to see how much you're stick to your idea and how much you're convinced that it'll work although I'm pretty sure you have little to no experience in raids.
    Even if your tool does happen to exist, you yourself will end up not even using it in the end because you'll encounter the sames issues as the actual LFG. Builds being too specific, requirements too high, ...
    Starting raids isnt even that difficult as solo player through LFG if you invest your time a little bit into training yourself and understanding how the gameplay actually works.

    I saw you stating that meta shouldnt be a thing, I think you're missing the point of the meta there:
    -Meta is actually a thing that automatically exists in every game, it's just the "most effective tactic avaiable", it speaks by itself seriously. As long as there's a diversity of build and stats, there will be a meta.
    -Meta builds are there for a purpose, to simplify people life so that they dont actually have to go through the pain of theorycrafting the whole meta and compositions by themselves. This way the raids entrance will be much easier for people who seek to get in the raids. There are plenty enough ressources on the net for people who actually WANT to understand and play the game properlly.
    You want to get into raids? Just train a class, know why you play that class and then join training/low requirement groups or whisp commies to get into raids groups if you dont meet the requirements. Some will accept you, others won't but it's w/e as long as you enter in a group in the end.

    Diving into the raids just blindly isnt the way to go. Thoses are a bit harder than the average content yeah but it's not THAT hard neither.

    like u said meta "most effective tactic avaiable", most people just want to have fun and finish it, so they dont have to follow meta, most of time meta is not the real meta, they just like to follow of everyone say without thinking, so let meta people play their speed runs and let other people have fun, it's not like a matchmaking would break lfg or stop pleople from doing their pre made raids, it's just a addition to put new people on raids

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    most of time meta is not the real meta

    You're basing this on what exactly?

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    most of time meta is not the real meta

    You're basing this on what exactly?

    it's simple, when people start to following builds, they stop trying new builds that can be as effective or better, sure meta is an effective comproved build but does not mean that's the MOST effective.
    then you have someone being effective with an "off meta build" they will just kick him because of the toxicity that meta causes.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    most of time meta is not the real meta

    You're basing this on what exactly?

    it's simple, when people start to following builds, they stop trying new builds that can be as effective or better, sure meta is an effective comproved build but does not mean that's the MOST effective.
    then you have someone being effective with an "off meta build" they will just kick him because of the toxicity that meta causes.

    Again. What are you basing on what is most effective and what isn't?

  • Shaogin.2679Shaogin.2679 Member ✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    most of time meta is not the real meta

    You're basing this on what exactly?

    it's simple, when people start to following builds, they stop trying new builds that can be as effective or better, sure meta is an effective comproved build but does not mean that's the MOST effective.
    then you have someone being effective with an "off meta build" they will just kick him because of the toxicity that meta causes.

    But you apparently can't find groups for raids so how would you even know about the "toxicity" that goes on in raids? Just because you state something doesn't make it true. Do you have any evidence of this? I ask because my experience has been exactly the opposite. The raiding community has always been very welcoming and helpful, and it is very rare that I come across any sort of toxic player. Since raids have released, I have met two "raid trolls", and only a few players that would rage quit. It basically feels like the opposite of the PvP environment.

    Doc Von Doom

  • @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    most of time meta is not the real meta

    You're basing this on what exactly?

    it's simple, when people start to following builds, they stop trying new builds that can be as effective or better, sure meta is an effective comproved build but does not mean that's the MOST effective.
    then you have someone being effective with an "off meta build" they will just kick him because of the toxicity that meta causes.

    So can i use minion mancher and bearbow in raids even tho my dmg will be to low to make it to enrage

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    most of time meta is not the real meta

    You're basing this on what exactly?

    it's simple, when people start to following builds, they stop trying new builds that can be as effective or better, sure meta is an effective comproved build but does not mean that's the MOST effective.
    then you have someone being effective with an "off meta build" they will just kick him because of the toxicity that meta causes.

    Here are the problems with your assumptions:
    A.) that is not how removal from squad happens. The most often reason for someone being removed from a group is due to lack of performance (bad boon uptime, failing lots of mechanics continuously, weak damage output, etc.). Nobody is going to bother to check what build you are running before a try, that's what KP/LI are for. People get removed AFTER they have shown to not perform (or before the try if they lack the ability to provide the group with confidence they will be able to perform their role, which LI/KP are used for, but again your build is irrelevant to)

    B.) being effective with an off meta build requires extensive knowledge of the class, game mechanics and encounter. Something a lot of players lack. No, you will not just magically find an amazing build just because you threw together some traits and skills. The suggested meta builds and even off meta builds one can find online are most often the result of extensive testing and experience.

    Which you would know IF you were actively raiding and tracking personal as well as group performance. Just as how you'd know that "best" or even "good" builds don't just fall out of the sky.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @gdubze.6015 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @gdubze.6015 said:
    Honestly the real issue are players like @zombyturtle.5980 saying something is not possible unless you play this way, watch this then come back and tell me what you said actually has any relevance.

    I bet you couldn't even explain how and why this was even possible. Not to mention it's not any more.

    Yes, I might come off elitist. I've been at this content and on these forums for as long as raids have been out. The sutpidity of players is neverending and unfortunately also repeating.

    This entire thread, every little thing said here, even your suggestions, has been had multiple times by now.

    Most of us are just tired of investing time into know it all forum warriors at this point.

    Once again you have offered no solutions and just throw insults and elitism into the thread, please stop quoting me if you have nothing constructive to put into the thread. And I can explain everything about that video and more if i so desired what have you put into this thread apart from insults and assumptions ?

    I have given solutions, in threads where players want to know how to get into raiding. I have explained WHY this system does not work.

    You want solutions to get into raiding:

    • join a training discord
    • join a raid training guild
    • try to have 1-2 easy raid builds ready to go

    Done.

    Stop telling people to join training guilds and discords. They are the reason raidings population is so small. They make raiding into a job and not fun. They've had a more negative impact on the raiding community than anything Anet has done.

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2020

    @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @gdubze.6015 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @gdubze.6015 said:
    Honestly the real issue are players like @zombyturtle.5980 saying something is not possible unless you play this way, watch this then come back and tell me what you said actually has any relevance.

    I bet you couldn't even explain how and why this was even possible. Not to mention it's not any more.

    Yes, I might come off elitist. I've been at this content and on these forums for as long as raids have been out. The sutpidity of players is neverending and unfortunately also repeating.

    This entire thread, every little thing said here, even your suggestions, has been had multiple times by now.

    Most of us are just tired of investing time into know it all forum warriors at this point.

    Once again you have offered no solutions and just throw insults and elitism into the thread, please stop quoting me if you have nothing constructive to put into the thread. And I can explain everything about that video and more if i so desired what have you put into this thread apart from insults and assumptions ?

    I have given solutions, in threads where players want to know how to get into raiding. I have explained WHY this system does not work.

    You want solutions to get into raiding:

    • join a training discord
    • join a raid training guild
    • try to have 1-2 easy raid builds ready to go

    Done.

    Stop telling people to join training guilds and discords. They are the reason raidings population is so small. They make raiding into a job and not fun. They've had a more negative impact on the raiding community than anything Anet has done.

    The issue is why should iy demand roles gw 2 was built on to be without roles. But its not so anymore. Ppl in training guilds are willing to teach but few are willing to learn.

  • @Shiyo.3578 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @gdubze.6015 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @gdubze.6015 said:
    Honestly the real issue are players like @zombyturtle.5980 saying something is not possible unless you play this way, watch this then come back and tell me what you said actually has any relevance.

    I bet you couldn't even explain how and why this was even possible. Not to mention it's not any more.

    Yes, I might come off elitist. I've been at this content and on these forums for as long as raids have been out. The sutpidity of players is neverending and unfortunately also repeating.

    This entire thread, every little thing said here, even your suggestions, has been had multiple times by now.

    Most of us are just tired of investing time into know it all forum warriors at this point.

    Once again you have offered no solutions and just throw insults and elitism into the thread, please stop quoting me if you have nothing constructive to put into the thread. And I can explain everything about that video and more if i so desired what have you put into this thread apart from insults and assumptions ?

    I have given solutions, in threads where players want to know how to get into raiding. I have explained WHY this system does not work.

    You want solutions to get into raiding:

    • join a training discord
    • join a raid training guild
    • try to have 1-2 easy raid builds ready to go

    Done.

    Stop telling people to join training guilds and discords. They are the reason raidings population is so small. They make raiding into a job and not fun. They've had a more negative impact on the raiding community than anything Anet has done.

    There's absolutely nothing that can save you if you are this far into desillusion, sadly. Imagine spitting on people who are taking their time to help others get into raiding. If you have seriously joined any training communities, and tried investing yourself seriously, I'm impressed you can even say that.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2020

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Stop telling people to join training guilds and discords. They are the reason raidings population is so small. They make raiding into a job and not fun. They've had a more negative impact on the raiding community than anything Anet has done.

    Nope. The reason why a lot of people consider raids to be a job, and not fun is simply because it's a type of content that requires a kind of effort only some players enjoy. If training guilds and discords didn't exist, and if no raiders posted on forums, it would not make the situation any better - you'd still need to put as much effort into raiding as you do now, and you would still consider it a job. It's not due to players - it's the content's fault.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Xentera.4560Xentera.4560 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2020

    I can see the OP does not have much experience in forming groups for raids.
    Raid parties in GW2 have to have certain roles filled. It is sad coming from a company who stated in the past “no trinity”. Instead we ended up with this disastrous mix of tank/heals/Alac/quickness/BS. That often has to be fine tuned with every boss encounter.
    I don’t think it is a problem with the raid community, or even the general player population. It is a failure of design of both the raid content that was designed in a way that any member failing a weird mechanic can result in a party wipe and group disbanding; and a failure of the game design itself that removed the Tried and True trinity, only to go back and give us a much worse system.

  • @Xentera.4560 said:
    I can see the OP does not have much experience in forming groups for raids.
    Raid parties in GW2 have to have certain roles filled. It is sad coming from a company who stated in the past “no trinity”. Instead we ended up with this disastrous mix of tank/heals/Alac/quickness/BS. That often has to be fine tuned with every boss encounter.
    I don’t think it is a problem with the raid community, or even the general player population. It is a failure of design of both the raid content that was designed in a way that any member failing a weird mechanic can result in a party wipe and group disbanding; and a failure of the game design itself that removed the Tried and True trinity, only to go back and give us a much worse system.

    A trinity has classes designed around roles gw 2 every class can fill many roles, these roles are player made not by design mostly for it makes it easier, even before raids we used roles just less in depth or team based raids are based on working as a group something dungeons rarely needed