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Perceived toxicity

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  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, this thread is from an individual who addresses the perception of possible toxicity from a source, in this case the forums. Not the entire raiding community, in fact, most other players disagreed with this notion. As such, I'd first like proof that this claim is actually true.

    >

    I'm actually confused about this. I merely observed that on the forums raiders get called toxic, and we have anecdotes from people who where scared of at first and later came around and where pleasently surprised.

    And most of the people I've seen disagree are using the argument

    "perceived toxicity = actual toxicity"

    Simple, I am saying:
    most complaints about toxicity in raids/fractals/dungeons/we on the forums come from very similar players:

    • never actually played the content
    • often opinions based on highly singular anecdotal encounters
    • often paired with an inability or lack of desire to actually work as a group
    • lack of understanding or following grouping mechanisms

    In essence, most players complaining about toxicity in raids create a feedback loop among themselves. That is, players of similar situation agreeing with each other and boosting their perception. One which, given the often very similar uneducated/inexperienced background the players have, leads to a incorrect perception of a huge part of the raiding community being toxic.

    On the flip side, there are those players who actually have raided or raid, who have walked the path, who are willing and able to cooperate and work within a group and social group, many of which disagree with the former group. The main difference here, these players actually have succeeded at the content and most often have extensive experience with it.

    There are even cases of very vocal players who were completely convinced that raiders are the devil suddenly change their opinion after actually experiencing productive raid trainings. Realizing that the community [raiding community or any], when engaged in a proper and productive manner akin to someone who is willing to contribute to a group effort, can be very helpful and is no more or less toxic than any other group of players.

    Beyond that, anything stated here is anecdotal.

    EDIT:
    and if we go by the actual other thread you brought up in your starting post, the topic creator there took an involuntary temporary leave from the forums, aka ban, and was a great example how toxicity is not necessarily something exclusive to a specific kind of content.

  • Ooops.8694Ooops.8694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2020

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Funny as dungeons back then were toxic you couldnt play class you want like ranger necro sure make own team but you would wait hours

    That was actual the same problem with perception vs reality... You could perfectly well play ranger in an optimized dungeon group as spirits, spotter and the fact you gained the most by picking up an elementalist's frostbow to replace your low scaling melee weapon compensated for the normally lower personal dps. (And you got the offhand axe pull to group up mobs in the rare case there wasn't a conveniently placed corner to stack in^^)
    And then there was the the perceived notion that every single ranger played a P/V/T geared bowbear build camping at maximum range and using Point-Blank Shot on CD to screw with melees. :-)

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    2. Refuse to use a meta build despite being new

    See this is the bigest contributer of the toxicity for 2 simple reasons.

    1: Metabuilds are not the only way to beat this content, plenty of groups/players have succeeded in raids without using Metabuilds.
    2: Most people want to play the content for fun and do not want to be bossed around and forced into playing a severely different class or playstyle that they have no idea how to use.. making them effectively useless and resulting in them possibly being berated for it.
    Good example being a Ranger player who's never used Druid before being forced into a support, healing role and not having the first clue how to play it.

    Most people can't be bothered to deal with that kind of thing, and it's only reinforced by the negative stories the hear about in game or on the forums or reddit.

    Reality is there is a toxicity problem perpetuated by some raiders and the so called "elite" players that has resulted in a minority of players putting a bunch of rules and expectations on raid content.. essentially demanding that everyone who wants to play the content must play the game in the very small amount of ways that they accept are the "right" ways to play the content, and so most players generally accepted that they were just not welcome there.´and it was not worth bothering to try.
    The end result was obvious, raid content ended up appealing to a very small minority of players and most just stopped caring about it.

    Anet has tried to remedy this problem with strike missions, bringing easier, more forgiving raid style content to the game that is more easily accessable and welcoming to non raiders to get them interested in and slightly experienced in raid content.
    But the same toxic attitudes that turned people off raiding in the first place has spread to strike missions as well, becoming another game mode that a minority of players have put a bunch of rules and expectations on that has driven most players away despite that the content was designed for those players and not the toxic minority that ruined raids for most people in the first place.

    This is not a new problem though, this same problem existed in fractals many years ago and Dungeons as well long before that.
    There has and likely always will be a toxic minority problem in GW2.. and any MMO for that matter because there will always be players who think that their way of playing the game is the right or only way to play the game.

    In regards to raids and strikes.. sure there is an "optimal" way to play that content and get the fastest kills.. that isn't and never has been up for debate.
    But when you start restricting that content to only players who accept that "optimal" way to play.. then all you've succeeded in doing is making that content playable by a small minority of players where it will eventually stagnate, wither and die thanks to low population/interest... just like raids has in Gw2 and likely where the future of strikes is heading to as well.

    At that point there will be a lot of whining from that minority of players about how unfair it is they Anet doesn't spend time and resources making content that most people won't play or even bother to try anymore.. while they refuse to accept that the reason most people won't try or play it is because of that minority of players and nothing else.

    So what is the solution?
    Honestly, I don't think there is one.. Raider minotiry aint going to change their ways and the majority player base ain't going to change theirs either..
    What we can all agree on though is that without more players.. these raid game modes will be regarded as a failure and Anet will probably stop supporting them at some point.
    I think it's a safe bet that most players really wouldn't care though if that happened.. it's to be expected all things considered.

    Meta builds is most effiecient but not needed to beat content the meta is built around other meta builds but i wouldnt give a new player a meta build as its probly above their skill unless for warrior, sword holo those 2 are easy

    Part of the point I was making yeah.

    Just giving someone a build they've never used before and expecting them to be able to use it is pretty silly, especially in the case of role swapping examples like I said with Ranger to Druid.
    But even among the easy ones there are elements that play big roles.
    A new player given a meta DPS build still aint going to hit the benchmark some groups expect because they just don't know how to use the build optimally.. aka min max their rotations etc.
    This requires lots of practice.. or for better use of the word, training.
    And like a lot of raiders will also make a point of saying as well.. "it's not their job to train you" but they'll certainly expect you to perform to their standards regardless of that.

    Kinda comes with the territory really that if you want someone to use a certain build and you give them that build and tell them to use it, then you are at least partly responsible for giving them a rundown on how to use it.
    That is something that is a credit to raiders who do training runs, so fair enough for them.

    But if a player does this among a pug group regardless of the content and then pulls the whole, "not my job to teach you how to play your class" attitude then frankly as far as I am concerned, they have no right to be telling you how to play your class in the first place.
    Basically, "If you won't teach, then don't preach."

    If some raiders are gonna criticize people and throw builds at them, then the least they can do is help them understand how to play what they! are pretty much expecting them to play.. They're just asking to be called toxic and elitist otherwise.

  • Good day ,

    What exactly keeps toxic effected players from making their own groups. That's the actual definition of what RA was and still is. An easy place to start raiding.

    Don't like meeting 80 percent of your class bench ? Make your own group and stipulate no benchmark dps plz. Or better yet just open an all welcome raid or strike.

    Unless people expect bench mark players to join these lesser exp groups there shouldn't be a problem.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I would argue that the low population of this content is pretty evident that the problem does exist.

    And I would argue that the lack of releases for this content is pretty evident why there is a low population.

    The toxic player element will always play a role in tuning people off playing something, that's just universally true for everything and one reason why a lot of people will avoid certain things in games or even certain games entirely.

    Of course it will. The question is if that "toxic player element" exists on the forums and/or other social media or inside the actual game. It's quite evident that in almost every post about toxicity players with zero experience of Raids and an active agenda against them, post and turn them into a heap of negativity and toxicity.

    From a personal experience several years ago, I still remember when a CoF P1 run took us 3 minutes longer to complete than one player in our party found acceptable.. to which he was extremely vocal about in the chat afterwards and used to justify being a massive "D" to everyone.

    From a personal experience I remember a thread on these forums, someone was complaining about toxicity of the elitists (and also about the toxicity of DPS meters) because he joined as a Tempest for a T4 Fractal run and got kicked. He said the group asked him about his very low DPS and then kicked him because he was doing less damage than the Druid.

    I personally asked that person what build he run and he confirmed he was a heal Tempest. He joined a group that already had a Healer Druid, never bothered to tell the group that he was a healer (the group was looking to fill the last spot with a DPS role) then proceeded to call the group toxic for not wanting him in the group. I gave them the advice to either don't join groups that look for dps as a healer or to simply TELL them that they are a healer. Perhaps that healer Druid would change to a condi dps Ranger if he knew? But no, he went silent, he was inconsiderate and disrespectful. Or toxic. After pointing out that he was the toxic one in the situation, the OP left the thread and never came back, yet the anti elitist/ anti dps meter forum squad kept the thread going for 15 more pages, demanding punishment from Anet, removal of dps meters and the usual forum things.

    Keep in mind that in his opening post he never bothered to say anything about the group having a healer Druid already, or about him playing a healer Tempest. He simply yelled that DPS meters should be banned because he was kicked by elitist toxic players for having low DPS. Of course the usual forum squad would pick it up and turn that entire thread into a pool of negativity and toxicity, as they always do, even when not knowing the actual details of what happened. "Someone was kicked because of DPS meters, ban DPS meters, those evil toxic elitists ruin the game!" when the truth is quite different...

    Every post about toxicity might have a hidden truth like that, which is also why Anet cannot officially do something about this perceived toxicity given how posts like that can be very very easily faked.

  • Lottie.5370Lottie.5370 Member ✭✭✭

    I think new players need to manage their expectations better, and no player should feel entitled to be a part of someone's group. The commanders (and even the other squad members) are putting their time in to do those raids, and sometimes people are just not ready or are really holding their team back, and it should be okay to tell those people that they need to go and learn or practise more before they raid again. I find a lot of new players mostly get kicked because they join an LFG that they do not meet the requirements for, and so they perceive that as toxic and the raid community not welcoming them. There are enough training raids on LFG, and guilds dedicated to raids/trainings, and even just normal PvE guilds that also run training raids, that you should be able to find a group meant for your level of experience.

    There is also a problem that occurs nearly every single time I lead a raid training: the majority of people do not come prepared. Whilst I will always give a brief explanation, I really do expect that people should look up what they're doing first and should have geared a meta build (and exotic gear REALLY is fine, having the right stats/weapons/traits/skills is a really great start). Nearly any raid boss is still possible even with bad DPS, if you think back to when raids launched, the DPS is nothing like it is now, but to not do everything you can to try and contribute everything possible, I don't think it's fair to everyone else in the squad.

    More often than not, it's just people not knowing entirely what to do, even with an explanation, or people not playing their role correctly. Obviously this is to be expected in some degree, but you'd be amazed at some of the things you see. We even have memes in our guild stemming from the "666 dps rifle warrior at Cairn". If I had kicked that guy before we killed the boss, he would have thought I was toxic.

    I think a way to help new players into raiding would be to have in game "guides" of sort that give an overview of each boss and what the bosses do (I don't mean guides on how to kill it, I don't think it should have any strategy there, just something to emphasise that they are hard, and a list of the things that they do).

    I hope I didn't come across as too salty here. I really do enjoy leading training raids and trying to teach people things, but there's just specific type of pug out there that can make it a really miserable experience for everyone involved.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I would argue that the low population of this content is pretty evident that the problem does exist.

    And I would argue that the lack of releases for this content is pretty evident why there is a low population.

    I would agree that is a contributing factor for the raider side of the argument, although I would also stress that raid content always has had a small population of dedicated players as well, even at it's most active periods.

    The toxic player element will always play a role in tuning people off playing something, that's just universally true for everything and one reason why a lot of people will avoid certain things in games or even certain games entirely.

    Of course it will. The question is if that "toxic player element" exists on the forums and/or other social media or inside the actual game. It's quite evident that in almost every post about toxicity players with zero experience of Raids and an active agenda against them, post and turn them into a heap of negativity and toxicity.

    People are just sharing their experiences and opinions, whether they have raided or not doesn't matter all that much.
    Dismissing people's comments based on them having little to no raid experience is part of the toxicty they complain about.. part of the reason why they can't get into the content in the first place.
    There is simply no need for anyone to have an "agenda" against raiding or raiders, Most people stopped caring about raids a long time ago when they felt excluded from the content, they have nothing to gain by having an agenda against raiders when the content is already dying.

    If they did harbor any contempt oir resentment then if anything they would just be gloating about it all the time instead of expressing why they never got to play the content.
    Them telling you why they don't raid isn't for their benefit.. if anything it's to help raiders understand how exclusive and unwelcoming the content has become, largely thanks to the players who play there.

    From a personal experience several years ago, I still remember when a CoF P1 run took us 3 minutes longer to complete than one player in our party found acceptable.. to which he was extremely vocal about in the chat afterwards and used to justify being a massive "D" to everyone.

    From a personal experience I remember a thread on these forums, someone was complaining about toxicity of the elitists (and also about the toxicity of DPS meters) because he joined as a Tempest for a T4 Fractal run and got kicked. He said the group asked him about his very low DPS and then kicked him because he was doing less damage than the Druid.

    I personally asked that person what build he run and he confirmed he was a heal Tempest. He joined a group that already had a Healer Druid, never bothered to tell the group that he was a healer (the group was looking to fill the last spot with a DPS role) then proceeded to call the group toxic for not wanting him in the group. I gave them the advice to either don't join groups that look for dps as a healer or to simply TELL them that they are a healer. Perhaps that healer Druid would change to a condi dps Ranger if he knew? But no, he went silent, he was inconsiderate and disrespectful. Or toxic. After pointing out that he was the toxic one in the situation, the OP left the thread and never came back, yet the anti elitist/ anti dps meter forum squad kept the thread going for 15 more pages, demanding punishment from Anet, removal of dps meters and the usual forum things.

    Keep in mind that in his opening post he never bothered to say anything about the group having a healer Druid already, or about him playing a healer Tempest. He simply yelled that DPS meters should be banned because he was kicked by elitist toxic players for having low DPS. Of course the usual forum squad would pick it up and turn that entire thread into a pool of negativity and toxicity, as they always do, even when not knowing the actual details of what happened. "Someone was kicked because of DPS meters, ban DPS meters, those evil toxic elitists ruin the game!" when the truth is quite different...

    Every post about toxicity might have a hidden truth like that, which is also why Anet cannot officially do something about this perceived toxicity given how posts like that can be very very easily faked.

    I think I also remember that thread.

    There are people who will join groups like that and not be what the group has specified.
    I'm against that kind of thing as well and there is definitely a toxic element to it I won't deny.

    I agree that there are a number of players who don't like DPS meters.
    I do recognize them as a useful tool but personally I do not care for them, specially since they are not built into the game and are essentially a 3rd party mod, which much like a lot of overlays I regard as some form of cheating since they give players who use them an advantage over players who don't.
    Thus the problems they can cause often do more harm than good imo.

    In organized raid squads where everyone is aware of their use and you're all trying to get a record kill or something it's completely understandable for people to use them.
    But I would argue there is a very small portion of the game where their use is beneficial.
    I've seen people run these things in all kinds of content, like dungeons and even in the Mad King's Decent.. which is quick and easy to farm even solo.
    It just becomes silly at that point.
    I've even seen multiple players with DPS meters arguing because they disagree over whether or not another player's DPS is acceptable or not.. that one was really funny, specially when the player chimed in and said he wasn't pure DPS and never proclaimed to be in the first place XD

    That said I don't think Anet should ban their use, but players who do use them need to be well aware that most people don't nor want to, and they wont take kindly to being accosted by players who do just because they are not playing to someone elses expectations.

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭

    I've encountered just as much toxicity if not more in open-world as in raids. Also, in general, this game is not really toxic.

    Meta builds are the easiest to perform well in most cases. Their ceiling is the highest so you don't need perfect execution to do well. If a build is already subpar, has a lower ceiling you will need to be that much better in execution to perform adequately. You can bring any build you want if it performs well. But you can't just come with something random and not perform since raids are content where some level of performance is required.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2020

    There's alot to say about this subject, but I'll just say this.

    I see this argument time and time again "new players are the problem", "newbies stop lying, stop deceiving, stop wasting time". Well, I ask you, how is a newer player supposed to know anything about the game, let alone all the unspoken rules and regulations of your LFG culture, which they have no way of finding out without playing the content, especially when they're not game rules and ArenaNet doesn't enforce them?

    Here's the problem with veterans in this game: The game gives new players a key to their first car, a beat up old junker, and then when they drive up next to the other cars ready to start a race so they can gain experience, everyone asks "where's your Ferrari, and your awards?".

    When new players can't present either of those things because they have no money, no experience and not prestige. they're told to just get lost. And then after a while they get tired of being told to get lost, so they start obfuscating details ("fake it until you make it") because they can't just magically make money, experience and prestige appear, like everyone wants, And then they're told that they're lying and deceiving.

    You could just ignore it, race and win. I seriously doubt one player (even in 5man) is pulling down the whole group. This a myth brought on by the need to have someone to blame; shown by the ability of people to solo or 2man most content, heck you can even get through nearly all T3/T4 Fractals just by having 2-3 people with the right composition, a few deadweights doesn't ruin everything unless you're also deadweight.

    You can run raids in Masterwork gear, but surely this one person is ruining /everything/ for you.

    Let me try to translate the words coming out of your mouths: "I am completely dependant on a perfect team composition and near-perfect gameplay to clear content because I'm not able to adapt to weaknesses in myself or my team, or simply refuse to do so". Doesn't this sound alot like what you're accusing newer, "stubborn" players of, when in reality they're probably just struggling to understand?

    This doesn't just affect raids btw. It affects all parts of the game, especially the competitive modes (PvP more than WvW, I guess).

    The net result is that they can't get anywhere while vets complain their challenging content is dead. Whether you're right or wrong doesn't matter, but you're all partly to blame for where the game, and the community, have ended up.

    There's no such thing as innocence, only varying degrees of guilt.

    EDIT: Some edits for clarity.

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  • @Hannelore.8153 said:
    There's alot to say about this subject, but I'll just say this.

    I see this argument time and time again "new players are the problem", "newbies stop lying, stop deceiving, stop wasting time". Well, I ask you, how is a newer player supposed to know anything about the game, let alone all the unspoken rules and regulations of your LFG culture, which they have no way of finding out without playing the content, especially when they're not game rules and ArenaNet doesn't enforce them?

    Here's the problem with veterans in this game: The game gives new players a key to their first car, a beat up old junker, and then when they drive up next to the other cars ready to start a race so they can gain experience, everyone asks "where's your Ferrari, and your awards?".

    When new players can't present either of those things because they have no money, no experience and not prestige. they're told to just get lost. And then after a while they get tired of being told to get lost, so they start obfuscating details ("fake it until you make it") because they can't just magically make money, experience and prestige appear, like everyone wants, And then they're told that they're lying and deceiving.

    You could just ignore it, race and win. I seriously doubt one player (even in 5man) is pulling down the whole group. This a myth brought on by the need to have someone to blame; shown by the ability of people to solo or 2man most content, heck you can even get through nearly all T3/T4 Fractals just by having 2-3 people with the right composition, a few deadweights doesn't ruin everything unless you're also deadweight.

    You can run raids in Masterwork gear, but surely this one person is ruining /everything/ for you.

    Let me try to translate the words coming out of your mouths: "I am completely dependant on a perfect team composition and near-perfect gameplay to clear content because I'm not able to adapt to weaknesses in myself or my team, or simply refuse to do so". Doesn't this sound alot like what you're accusing newer, "stubborn" players of, when in reality they're probably just struggling to understand?

    This doesn't just affect raids btw. It affects all parts of the game, especially the competitive modes (PvP more than WvW, I guess).

    The net result is that they can't get anywhere while vets complain their challenging content is dead. Whether you're right or wrong doesn't matter, but you're all partly to blame for where the game, and the community, have ended up.

    There's no such thing as innocence, only varying degrees of guilt.

    EDIT: Some edits for clarity.

    Yes the game absolutely sucks horribly in teaching new playes anything about how to play decently but that is entirely on anet and the vocal casuals who complain to death about anything remotely challenging in the game, and has nothiing to do with raiders.

    A new player who is bad purely from ignorance, but wants to improve will very quickly find the help and advice needed. Almost everyone is happy to answer questions or suggest guides that can give a player everything they need. Raiders have literally spent hundreds of hours writing guides, making vids and crafting builds that will carry all but the worst players through content if they bother to read/watch them. All it takes is 1 question in guild chat or aerodrome, or one google search. There are the raiders who spend hours each week running trainings to help new players get into raids, getting 0 benefit themselves and doing it purely for others. Raiders have done more than any other group in this game to help newbies, except for the wiki creators or dulfy herself back when she was active. If you put in 0 effort to help yourself and demand everyone do it for you, expect 0 help in return.

    Other than torpedoing their own clear groups by accepting any and all new players which is a super entitled and unreasonable thing to ask, what else exactly should raiders be doing to help newbies? Quite frankly, I do not want to carry a player who contributes nothing to the group. They will never learn anything if they are just carried through.

    Maybe if a player cant even understand half the terms in a LFG, they shouldnt be joining that group as it clearly isnt for them?

  • JTGuevara.9018JTGuevara.9018 Member ✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    This is why some people won't step into fractals, raids, or even dungeons. Raids coming to GW2 was a controversial move, and the original game was made without raids partly because Anet didn't want raid toxicity to be in the game. This is an age old problem, and there's not a lot of evidence that it has been fixed. Or even evidence that it can be fixed. MMOs aren't new. GW2 drew a large casual crowd at launch, full of people who had been burned by the hardcore players of other MMOs. They've learned their lesson, and all of that grief isn't worth the risk that this time, for no apparent reason, raids are a better place now. Hence, why I say the problem cannot be fixed.

    The question is if there is evidence that this problem of yours "exist" or not, or rather if it's so common place as to be an actual problem. Provide your evidence that the problem exist before you look at evidence if the problem can be "fixed", is it an actual problem that exist, or perceived one? Is it a real issue, or an issue brought up by players who never experienced it, or have just second hand experience with it? "Hey I read on the internet that Raids in games are toxic, therefore it must be true"

    I would argue that the low population of this content is pretty evident that the problem does exist.

    I've said many times that a great deal of players and builds are more than capable of beating this content so the problem largely comes from accessability.
    The toxic player element will always play a role in tuning people off playing something, that's just universally true for everything and one reason why a lot of people will avoid certain things in games or even certain games entirely.

    The other 2 factors are: General lack of interest, which to be fair is a big one.. As Blood Red Arachnid.2493 pointed out Gw2's target audience is and always has been the more casual MMO player who's just playing purely for fun, so there is a great number of people who don't have much or any interest in difficult hardcore content in general.

    The other factor is the players who would be willing to try it and would probably enjoy it, but are kept away by the player established rules/expectations on the content.. which to them seem more like hard restrictions on what they can play and how they can play it..
    This doesn't sit well with a lot of people, especially when they know that these rules/expectations are not mandatory to enjoy and beat the content.
    This is only further reinforced by negative experiences they or others have had trying to get into the content as well.

    A lot of us old players still remember when the same toxic attitudes existed in dungeons.
    From a personal experience several years ago, I still remember when a CoF P1 run took us 3 minutes longer to complete than one player in our party found acceptable.. to which he was extremely vocal about in the chat afterwards and used to justify being a massive "D" to everyone.
    This kind of thing has always existed in "difficult, endgame" content in just about any MMO.
    Hell there are still cases with dungeon content where people will try to be a "D" about someones DPS or unfamiliatiry with the content.. I still occasionally find players who refuse to allow non lvl 80's in the party which is just asinine to me.

    I don't think this problem can even be fixed. These are theme-park MMOs in a nutshell. They're based on the Everquest/WoW model. where you have this mythical concept of "endgame", or the carrot on the stick. Of course, this situation starts out ok -- nobody has the carrot, everybody is exploring different ways to get it. However....

    Once enough people get the carrot, all that's left for a community to do before they get bored, is to streamline the content to get the carrot even faster. The veterans then start to establish certain rules and expectations in order to get said carrot. ("meta"!) (Ex: "If you don't jump at the carrot this way, you're doing it wrong!") And yes, this puts off new players. Sorry...the "hardcore" raiding crowd is not innocent in this.

    Frankly, this is a major reason why I don't even mess with MMOs anymore. MMOs simply have not grown past the Everquest/WoW model. For supposed "social" environments, MMOs are anything but. I guess it's called "theme-park" for a reason.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2020

    I don't want to read all this kitten, but on Artsariiv, tome 3 will be enough to completely neutralize her for phase 1 and 3 (with reflects), and if you throw in some stand your ground, it's all good. There's really no reason to not do this anyways. Though I guess it's possible for dps to be bad so it takes forever. A knockback every now and then shouldn't be a problem; it's probably the easiest boss in 100.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    This is why some people won't step into fractals, raids, or even dungeons. Raids coming to GW2 was a controversial move, and the original game was made without raids partly because Anet didn't want raid toxicity to be in the game. This is an age old problem, and there's not a lot of evidence that it has been fixed. Or even evidence that it can be fixed. MMOs aren't new. GW2 drew a large casual crowd at launch, full of people who had been burned by the hardcore players of other MMOs. They've learned their lesson, and all of that grief isn't worth the risk that this time, for no apparent reason, raids are a better place now. Hence, why I say the problem cannot be fixed.

    The question is if there is evidence that this problem of yours "exist" or not, or rather if it's so common place as to be an actual problem. Provide your evidence that the problem exist before you look at evidence if the problem can be "fixed", is it an actual problem that exist, or perceived one? Is it a real issue, or an issue brought up by players who never experienced it, or have just second hand experience with it? "Hey I read on the internet that Raids in games are toxic, therefore it must be true"

    I would argue that the low population of this content is pretty evident that the problem does exist.

    This actually doesn't work as "proof". At best it would proof that the perception exists. But not whether this perception is based on reality or comfermation bias

    I've said many times that a great deal of players and builds are more than capable of beating this content so the problem largely comes from accessability.
    The toxic player element will always play a role in tuning people off playing something, that's just universally true for everything and one reason why a lot of people will avoid certain things in games or even certain games entirely.

    The other 2 factors are: General lack of interest, which to be fair is a big one.. As Blood Red Arachnid.2493 pointed out Gw2's target audience is and always has been the more casual MMO player who's just playing purely for fun, so there is a great number of people who don't have much or any interest in difficult hardcore content in general.

    The other factor is the players who would be willing to try it and would probably enjoy it, but are kept away by the player established rules/expectations on the content.. which to them seem more like hard restrictions on what they can play and how they can play it..
    This doesn't sit well with a lot of people, especially when they know that these rules/expectations are not mandatory to enjoy and beat the content.
    This is only further reinforced by negative experiences they or others have had trying to get into the content as well.

    A lot of us old players still remember when the same toxic attitudes existed in dungeons.
    From a personal experience several years ago, I still remember when a CoF P1 run took us 3 minutes longer to complete than one player in our party found acceptable.. to which he was extremely vocal about in the chat afterwards and used to justify being a massive "D" to everyone.
    This kind of thing has always existed in "difficult, endgame" content in just about any MMO.
    Hell there are still cases with dungeon content where people will try to be a "D" about someones DPS or unfamiliatiry with the content.. I still occasionally find players who refuse to allow non lvl 80's in the party which is just asinine to me.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A lack of new content (with the last being lol Sirens) probably does more damage than anything else.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    People are just sharing their experiences and opinions, whether they have raided or not doesn't matter all that much.

    You cannot share an experience about something without experiencing it first... otherwise it's not an experience. And sharing an opinion, a very vocal opinion, while having no first hand experience is exactly what creates this perceived toxicity. Is it actually toxic or is it just some random posters posting as if it is, without having a clue about what they are talking about? I'd go with the second one.

    That depends on what the experience is.
    For a number of people their "raid" experience is essentially the same as showing up to an open party and as soon as they've walked through the door they're stopped by a group of people who say "this is our party, you're not good enough to be here, get out!"
    Them not getting to experience the actual content is irrelevant at that point, their negative experience with the raid community is more than enough for them to have the opinions they do.
    Dismissing those opinions on the grounds of them not actually having played the content just isnt fair at that point, and it only contributes to the toxicity that they speak of in the first place.

    The content isn't what's being criticized most of the time, the community is.

    There is simply no need for anyone to have an "agenda" against raiding or raiders

    You haven't been paying attention to any threads with the word "Raid" in them haven't you?

    I've been in more than a few.

    Most to my memory were never about "raids are too hard" but rather "raids are too hard to get into, becuase of the community"

    There are people who will join groups like that and not be what the group has specified.
    I'm against that kind of thing as well and there is definitely a toxic element to it I won't deny.

    Which sums up most forum threads about toxicity in one sentence. Is this "toxicity" really bad? OR is it the one that joins such a group the toxic one? Yet they try to spin it the other way around. Are there ANY indications of another type of toxicity?

    Some I'll agree but not all, there are a good number of us who make our own groups to avoid this very problem and still end up having to deal with toxic players who try to take them over.
    The vast majority of my personal negative experience with those kinds of players has been in groups I created, in fact I rarely ever join other peoples groups.

    "All Welcome" I put in every one of my group descriptions for a reason, I won't tolerate that kind of behaviour in my groups and I'd rather kick the "elite" player for being a D than dogpile on another player for not playing to the expecations of another.
    If that means I have to carry another player I will, and if that means we'll fail against something then so be it.. at least we'll have fun doing it.

    That said I don't think Anet should ban their use, but players who do use them need to be well aware that most people don't nor want to, and they wont take kindly to being accosted by players who do just because they are not playing to someone elses expectations.

    Yet the same type of player will "expect" a team to carry them through content, no questions asked, not respecting the team's desires or time, and call the community "exclusive" and "unwelcome" when it doesn't play to their expectations.

    You're assuming the "team" in this case is always in full agreement with the player doing the criticizing.
    That might be true from your experience in raids but mine is quite different in other content.
    If anything most of the teams i've been with get more annoyed by one player holding up a groups progress to whine on about someone elses DPS being too low.
    Most people just don't care if that one persons low DPS might add a few minutes tops to the run time, they just want to play the content.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    For a number of people their "raid" experience is essentially the same as showing up to an open party and as soon as they've walked through the door they're stopped by a group of people who say "this is our party, you're not good enough to be here, get out!"

    Is it really an open party? Or rather a close party that they try desperately to enter even when not being invited.

    Dismissing those opinions on the grounds of them not actually having played the content just isnt fair at that point, and it only contributes to the toxicity that they speak of in the first place.

    Actually it's totally fair to dismiss them and it's funny that you are doing the same kind of derailing here that they do.

    Most to my memory were never about "raids are too hard" but rather "raids are too hard to get into, becuase of the community"

    Then you really haven't been to Raid threads in the last few years.

    "All Welcome" I put in every one of my group descriptions for a reason, I won't tolerate that kind of behaviour in my groups and I'd rather kick the "elite" player for being a D than dogpile on another player for not playing to the expecations of another.

    And I question that this type of behavior is common enough to warrant labeling a part of the community as toxic. How many times where your "all welcome" groups been hijacked while running Raids? Where they actually been "taken over" or was a simple note given about the lack of dps?

    If anything most of the teams i've been with get more annoyed by one player holding up a groups progress to whine on about someone elses DPS being too low.
    Most people just don't care if that one persons low DPS might add a few minutes tops to the run time, they just want to play the content.

    I bet you have enough sources to prove this right? And it's not, as the topic of the thread is, PERCEIVED toxicity and not real one.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    People are just sharing their experiences and opinions, whether they have raided or not doesn't matter all that much.

    You cannot share an experience about something without experiencing it first... otherwise it's not an experience. And sharing an opinion, a very vocal opinion, while having no first hand experience is exactly what creates this perceived toxicity. Is it actually toxic or is it just some random posters posting as if it is, without having a clue about what they are talking about? I'd go with the second one.

    That depends on what the experience is.
    For a number of people their "raid" experience is essentially the same as showing up to an open party and as soon as they've walked through the door they're stopped by a group of people who say "this is our party, you're not good enough to be here, get out!"
    Them not getting to experience the actual content is irrelevant at that point, their negative experience with the raid community is more than enough for them to have the opinions they do.
    Dismissing those opinions on the grounds of them not actually having played the content just isnt fair at that point, and it only contributes to the toxicity that they speak of in the first place.

    We'll tbh its more akin to someone going to an open party, wandering into a private section of that party. Getting kicked out of that section. And then feeling that they are not welcome on the party.

    It's an understandable, yet still untrue assessment of the situation.

    The content isn't what's being criticized most of the time, the community is.

    There is simply no need for anyone to have an "agenda" against raiding or raiders

    You haven't been paying attention to any threads with the word "Raid" in them haven't you?

    I've been in more than a few.

    Most to my memory were never about "raids are too hard" but rather "raids are too hard to get into, becuase of the community"

    To which the community always replied, well these are ways to get into it. Or you can put up your own group and start from scratch. I mean I wouldn't call the opinion that raids are being gatekeeped very true.

    There are people who will join groups like that and not be what the group has specified.
    I'm against that kind of thing as well and there is definitely a toxic element to it I won't deny.

    Which sums up most forum threads about toxicity in one sentence. Is this "toxicity" really bad? OR is it the one that joins such a group the toxic one? Yet they try to spin it the other way around. Are there ANY indications of another type of toxicity?

    Some I'll agree but not all, there are a good number of us who make our own groups to avoid this very problem and still end up having to deal with toxic players who try to take them over.
    The vast majority of my personal negative experience with those kinds of players has been in groups I created, in fact I rarely ever join other peoples groups.

    "All Welcome" I put in every one of my group descriptions for a reason, I won't tolerate that kind of behaviour in my groups and I'd rather kick the "elite" player for being a D than dogpile on another player for not playing to the expecations of another.
    If that means I have to carry another player I will, and if that means we'll fail against something then so be it.. at least we'll have fun doing it.

    That said I don't think Anet should ban their use, but players who do use them need to be well aware that most people don't nor want to, and they wont take kindly to being accosted by players who do just because they are not playing to someone elses expectations.

    Yet the same type of player will "expect" a team to carry them through content, no questions asked, not respecting the team's desires or time, and call the community "exclusive" and "unwelcome" when it doesn't play to their expectations.

    You're assuming the "team" in this case is always in full agreement with the player doing the criticizing.
    That might be true from your experience in raids but mine is quite different in other content.
    If anything most of the teams i've been with get more annoyed by one player holding up a groups progress to whine on about someone elses DPS being too low.
    Most people just don't care if that one persons low DPS might add a few minutes tops to the run time, they just want to play the content.

    You and maddoctor.2738 are speaking of different situations here though, most people don't mind if their group is optimal, they mind when a dps does less then a healer for example . Or causes a wipe etc

  • kratan.4619kratan.4619 Member ✭✭✭

    This entire thread demonstrates exactly why any instanced content breeds "elitist" attitudes and should just be removed. As soon as you limit the number of players allowed it is no longer an inclusive environment and leads to players deciding what is best to include and what should be excluded. "You will play what I tell you how I tell you or I will take my ball and go home.", this is exactly what some of the posters here are saying.

  • Ooops.8694Ooops.8694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    For a number of people their "raid" experience is essentially the same as showing up to an open party and as soon as they've walked through the door they're stopped by a group of people who say "this is our party, you're not good enough to be here, get out!"

    Except the right analogy would have been: "They show up to an open party... But when they aren't allowed to get through a door there labeled "private" (either not understanding the word or not caring) they throw a tantrum, disturb the other guests just trying to party there. Then they go on and spend their whole day on the street in front of the house telling everbody coming even remotely close how that's a hell hole right there you should never visit under any circumstances if you know what's good for you"

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Most to my memory were never about "raids are too hard" but rather "raids are too hard to get into, becuase of the community"

    No, they are mostly about "raids are too hard to get into, because i can rarely beat bosses with random guys with no clue (sometimes i don't even tried) but the experienced ones insist on grouping only with players on a similiar experience scale. So please remove dpsmeters, LI and KP so they can't distinguish anymore. Or at least add an easy mode with (probably less but still) indistinguishable rewards."
    You see the "agenda"there, don't you? It's not hidden that well...

  • Ooops.8694Ooops.8694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2020

    Edit: double post, sry

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2020

    @kratan.4619 said:
    This entire thread demonstrates exactly why any instanced content breeds "elitist" attitudes and should just be removed. As soon as you limit the number of players allowed it is no longer an inclusive environment and leads to players deciding what is best to include and what should be excluded. "You will play what I tell you how I tell you or I will take my ball and go home.", this is exactly what some of the posters here are saying.

    I'm not sure which part refers to the "if you don't play the way I want, then I'll leave". Isn't that exactly what players are saying who want others to take them along on any build?

    I agree with you, players who can't work as a team or are not willing to supersede their own desires/demands for that of the group have no room in group content. That's not only the case here, that's a general rule for life. If you can't work in a team, no one will want to have you in theirs.

    That has nothing to do with elitism. That's merely some individuals unable to adapt to a cooperative environment where multiple roles are required and the group will is more important than the individual.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @kratan.4619 said:
    "You will play what I tell you how I tell you or I will take my ball and go home.", this is exactly what some of the posters here are saying.

    Which is an altogether unimpressive threat in a situation where there are thousands if not tens of thousands of other people willing to play as well as an openly accessible warehouse with practically infinite balls in storage.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I find it interesting that in almost all the analogies made saying raiders are toxic it's always the team that's portrayed as the issue instead of the person actively refusing to be a team player.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    For a number of people their "raid" experience is essentially the same as showing up to an open party and as soon as they've walked through the door they're stopped by a group of people who say "this is our party, you're not good enough to be here, get out!"

    Is it really an open party? Or rather a close party that they try desperately to enter even when not being invited.

    Comparison was clear enough.

    No content in this game is or should ever be restricted access to anyone, it's a small section of the community that tries to enforce rules and restrictions, and so they got branded toxic for it.
    Just because you play a mode regularly doesn't mean you get to dictate who can and cannot come and play there.

    Dismissing those opinions on the grounds of them not actually having played the content just isnt fair at that point, and it only contributes to the toxicity that they speak of in the first place.

    Actually it's totally fair to dismiss them and it's funny that you are doing the same kind of derailing here that they do.

    I'm mearly pointing out that you're saying it's perfectly ok to disregard/invalidate people's opinions and experiences in a discussion about a game mode that they haven't been able to play, because they havent played it..
    Even though the only reason they haven't played it is because of how they've been treated and excluded by the players who do.

    Essentially (and I do hope this is unintentional) you're justifying a kind of bullying behaviour that excludes people from raiding, in order to disregard their complaints about that behaviour.
    Ergo whether you're aware of it or not you're still contributing to the same toxicity that pushes people away from this content.

    Most to my memory were never about "raids are too hard" but rather "raids are too hard to get into, becuase of the community"

    Then you really haven't been to Raid threads in the last few years.

    A good number in fact, though the last one was at least a few months ago.

    "All Welcome" I put in every one of my group descriptions for a reason, I won't tolerate that kind of behaviour in my groups and I'd rather kick the "elite" player for being a D than dogpile on another player for not playing to the expecations of another.

    And I question that this type of behavior is common enough to warrant labeling a part of the community as toxic. How many times where your "all welcome" groups been hijacked while running Raids? Where they actually been "taken over" or was a simple note given about the lack of dps?

    In Raids, it only happened a few of times from the small amount of runs I attempted to get a group going, and yes most of the time when it did happen they were taken over to a point I said screw this and left because I didn't want to play with those types of people.
    And no I wasn't always the one being berated either but I still left anyway.
    I have been in that position a few times in various content, but mostly I see it happen to other players a lot more than it happens to me.

    The main place I saw it occur was in strike missions largely due to them being designed to be more accessable to non raiders.
    But the same toxicity in raids bled over into strikes aswell, if anything it's even more common there since strikes are mostly easier than raids and attract more players than raids do.

    If anything most of the teams i've been with get more annoyed by one player holding up a groups progress to whine on about someone elses DPS being too low.
    Most people just don't care if that one persons low DPS might add a few minutes tops to the run time, they just want to play the content.

    I bet you have enough sources to prove this right? And it's not, as the topic of the thread is, PERCEIVED toxicity and not real one.

    Prove which one?
    Can only give my personal experience on the "most teams i've played with get more annoyed" bit, I hardly screenshot and archive every conversation with randoms.

    But the "most people don't care if someones DPS is low" part, well that's pretty self evident through old content like dungeons.
    If most people who play dungeons cared about having the most meta DPS fast runs like they used to several years ago then people would still be complaining about how toxic dungeon groups are.
    As many have pointed out, the problems people have with raids used to be just as common in dungeons a long time ago.. fractals too for a while.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ooops.8694 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    For a number of people their "raid" experience is essentially the same as showing up to an open party and as soon as they've walked through the door they're stopped by a group of people who say "this is our party, you're not good enough to be here, get out!"

    Except the right analogy would have been: "They show up to an open party... But when they aren't allowed to get through a door there labeled "private" (either not understanding the word or not caring) they throw a tantrum, disturb the other guests just trying to party there. Then they go on and spend their whole day on the street in front of the house telling everbody coming even remotely close how that's a hell hole right there you should never visit under any circumstances if you know what's good for you"

    Actually a more accurate analogy would be everyone in the private room hordes all the snacks and entertainment after you walk in, invites all the regular guests into the private room with them and leaves you standing in an empy room alone with the choices of leaving or waiting around for someone else to show up with the hope they won't walk right past you into the private room with everyone else.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Most to my memory were never about "raids are too hard" but rather "raids are too hard to get into, becuase of the community"

    No, they are mostly about "raids are too hard to get into, because i can rarely beat bosses with random guys with no clue (sometimes i don't even tried) but the experienced ones insist on grouping only with players on a similiar experience scale. So please remove dpsmeters, LI and KP so they can't distinguish anymore. Or at least add an easy mode with (probably less but still) indistinguishable rewards."
    You see the "agenda"there, don't you? It's not hidden that well...

    I've made plenty of arguments for easy mode raids myself.
    Partly for training purposes so people can learn the mechanics in a more forgiving environment, which is the biggest in game difficulty factor in raiding.
    And also to experience the story element without having to waste anyone elses time in an actual raid.
    NO! raid rewards was always an absolute must have for that to work as intended and not take away from the normal raid content, and I stressed that over and over again.

    It never mattered though, raiders would always come down hard on any arguments for easy modes that wouldn't effect them in the slightests because ultimately they had raids how they wanted them and they didn't want anyone else coming along and proving that their precious meta's were not the only way to play the content.

    The most amusing thing to me however is that we, in a way got the easy mode raids we long asked for.. Strike missions.
    But that didn't stop the toxicity in the raid community from spreading into strikes too, humorous considering how anti easy mode raids these people were originally.
    To be fair though, the rewards are the main reason for that happening more than anything, I can't blame them for that, but that is exactly why I was such a strong advocate for NO! rewards in the first place.
    Raiders would not have bothered with strikes if there were no rewards.. or at least only rewards in the challenge variants which would be close to or on par with the easiest raids.
    That would have been a better setup for strikes imo.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2020

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @kratan.4619 said:
    "You will play what I tell you how I tell you or I will take my ball and go home.", this is exactly what some of the posters here are saying.

    Which is an altogether unimpressive threat in a situation where there are thousands if not tens of thousands of other people willing to play as well as an openly accessible warehouse with practically infinite balls in storage.

    That's something a lot of people don't seem to get. No one is indispensable, nor they are God's gift to their party. So losing "you" (a general term, not to anyone specfically) is not a big deal. And I wonder which has a harder time finding a party; someone that performs adequately, or someone that doesn't.

    So people can condemn the "elitists" all you want, but they're getting the stuff done, while all they can do is spew hot air.

    Btw one can always make friends of a similar skill level and form a static, and won't have to pug.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Ooops.8694 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    For a number of people their "raid" experience is essentially the same as showing up to an open party and as soon as they've walked through the door they're stopped by a group of people who say "this is our party, you're not good enough to be here, get out!"

    Except the right analogy would have been: "They show up to an open party... But when they aren't allowed to get through a door there labeled "private" (either not understanding the word or not caring) they throw a tantrum, disturb the other guests just trying to party there. Then they go on and spend their whole day on the street in front of the house telling everbody coming even remotely close how that's a hell hole right there you should never visit under any circumstances if you know what's good for you"

    Actually a more accurate analogy would be everyone in the private room hordes all the snacks and entertainment after you walk in, invites all the regular guests into the private room with them and leaves you standing in an empy room alone with the choices of leaving or waiting around for someone else to show up with the hope they won't walk right past you into the private room with everyone else.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Most to my memory were never about "raids are too hard" but rather "raids are too hard to get into, becuase of the community"

    No, they are mostly about "raids are too hard to get into, because i can rarely beat bosses with random guys with no clue (sometimes i don't even tried) but the experienced ones insist on grouping only with players on a similiar experience scale. So please remove dpsmeters, LI and KP so they can't distinguish anymore. Or at least add an easy mode with (probably less but still) indistinguishable rewards."
    You see the "agenda"there, don't you? It's not hidden that well...

    I've made plenty of arguments for easy mode raids myself.
    Partly for training purposes so people can learn the mechanics in a more forgiving environment, which is the biggest in game difficulty factor in raiding.
    And also to experience the story element without having to waste anyone elses time in an actual raid.
    NO! raid rewards was always an absolute must have for that to work as intended and not take away from the normal raid content, and I stressed that over and over again.

    It never mattered though, raiders would always come down hard on any arguments for easy modes that wouldn't effect them in the slightests because ultimately they had raids how they wanted them and they didn't want anyone else coming along and proving that their precious meta's were not the only way to play the content.

    The most amusing thing to me however is that we, in a way got the easy mode raids we long asked for.. Strike missions.
    But that didn't stop the toxicity in the raid community from spreading into strikes too, humorous considering how anti easy mode raids these people were originally.
    To be fair though, the rewards are the main reason for that happening more than anything, I can't blame them for that, but that is exactly why I was such a strong advocate for NO! rewards in the first place.
    Raiders would not have bothered with strikes if there were no rewards.. or at least only rewards in the challenge variants which would be close to or on par with the easiest raids.
    That would have been a better setup for strikes imo.

    For someone so concerned and against being told how to play you seen incredibly concerned with telling others how to play and use their time as long as it includes you.

  • skarpak.8594skarpak.8594 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    No content in this game is or should ever be restricted access to anyone, it's a small section of the community that tries to enforce rules and restrictions, and so they got branded toxic for it.
    Just because you play a mode regularly doesn't mean you get to dictate who can and cannot come and play there.

    i absolutly dictate who comes into my party and who doesn't when i open and organize said party...and it dosn't matter if its dungeons, openworld, raids or whatever content. i am not going to play with everyone and their mom if i do not want to and i will absolutly enforce the rules i put up.

    one of my rules for example is to never play with blocked people. sucks for them but i don't give a kitten. they will be kicked on sight.
    what are you going to do? report me to anet? try to change it?...go ahead and try it, silly person.

    ...content in this game is not restricted for anyone, and if there are restrictions (level restrictions for pvp for example), then its there for a reason.
    group rules =/= player restriction.

  • @yann.1946 said:
    The recent tread about matchmaking has made me think about an important problem in raids.

    The perceived toxicity that gets complained about. Because it doesn't really matter that it's a false observation (no complete group of people is toxic unless they are defined by being toxic)
    When new players think that raiders are toxic it will scare people away which is a problem as it might be content they enjoy.

    So as a question: What are you're suggestions to reduce this problems.
    BTW i am aware of a multitude of things being done to accommodate it, just curious to see if theirs something we missed.

    I never done raids before because of several things and im over it for now which means I don’t even think about doing raids
    But i play fractals and we have the same problem there as well.
    The solution is to give more rewards for the people who carry the parties and even more when you have a noobs in your party.
    Adding a skill level will be a good start in that regard.

    Just like how the pvp rankings system work

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020

    @yann.1946
    For me best solution was to do raids/fractals/strikes with guild

    idk why in this game many ppl decide to do that by pug

    when you do it with guild, your more bind to ppl that you play evry day compare when you join as random wher no one know you or you not know them

    when i started play 3-4 months ago, first think i did was to find trening raid guild, i watched guides before joing raid aslo used meta build for rifle holo

    even found teacher that play holo, to see at my rotation and give some tips ( i meet him while i was roaming 1vs3 as scrapper at wvw)

    i came from huge p2w game called allods online when i survived over 6y as only f2p

    i can't understed why so many ppl have problems

    is it becase game is eazy, so ppl that used to it can't solve problems by themself or?

    i rare spot anyone that is toxic (if somone is, prob don't do dps well and leave fast after 1 wipe, so you can fast replace that person)

    if i pug, i usualy creating team by myself

    And like a lot of raiders will also make a point of saying as well.. "it's not their job to train you" but they'll certainly expect you to perform to their standards regardless of that.

    i never had problem with it, i usualy do raids with traning raids guilds and with 1 social guide that speak in my language

    maybe similar behavior was once at fractals when i jumped from t3 to t4 (pug before i had any guild), that 1 person said my dps is too low (as i had random stats and used only flaemthrower)
    but it was when i was complatly new, and i runed more of open word setings, also i said when i joined, that i'm new, and if i do somethink wrong, to say
    so evryone was fine to me, and explained evrythink by cool way

    i think the worst think is not notify your team about your problems, so thay don't have suprise face while half way

    Maybe i not used to that community yet but i see you point problems, that never existed for me

    Are ppl at this game rly that casual and careless or just many ppl chosing play alone and gather only at pugs from wher all that bad experience coming?

    I don't understend all of you

    Maybe i sticked to hardcore/hard community at p2w game too long that teahced me how to take care of myself that experience you write is too much mindblowing for me

  • Ooops.8694Ooops.8694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Ooops.8694 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    For a number of people their "raid" experience is essentially the same as showing up to an open party and as soon as they've walked through the door they're stopped by a group of people who say "this is our party, you're not good enough to be here, get out!"

    Except the right analogy would have been: "They show up to an open party... But when they aren't allowed to get through a door there labeled "private" (either not understanding the word or not caring) they throw a tantrum, disturb the other guests just trying to party there. Then they go on and spend their whole day on the street in front of the house telling everbody coming even remotely close how that's a hell hole right there you should never visit under any circumstances if you know what's good for you"

    Actually a more accurate analogy would be everyone in the private room hordes all the snacks and entertainment after you walk in, invites all the regular guests into the private room with them and leaves you standing in an empy room alone with the choices of leaving or waiting around for someone else to show up with the hope they won't walk right past you into the private room with everyone else.

    Sorry, but no! Every room (= raid instance) has exactly the same number of snacks and entertainment (=loot and bosses) and all the tables with snacks are equally distributed with some of them easier, some of them more difficult to reach (=bossfights).
    And regarding the people your analogy would imply the oh-so-low-number of raiders being a majority, with basically only single individuals trying to join raids... Okay, maybe that's even true. But then you actually made the point for us, that raiders aren't the problem, but all the non-raiders (and going from the (mostly unsupported) numbers thrown around in the forum non-raiders make up ~90-99% of the playerbase) not trying at all.

    @silent killer.5732 said:
    The solution is to give more rewards for the people who carry the parties and even more when you have a noobs in your party.
    Adding a skill level will be a good start in that regard.

    Sadly, Arenanet thinks very differently. At the moment there's basically no reward for doing raidbosses more than once a week. So if i do my usual full clear on monday, i then spend the rest of the week actually paying for every single additional bossfight i do. And no, that's no exaggeration: You get ~1-4 mostly blue pieces of unidentified gear per boss, so ~10 silver if you're lucky. That's ~1/5th of the price for 30minutes of the usual power dps buff food (i don't even want to do the math for some of the account bound stuff).

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    No content in this game is or should ever be restricted access to anyone, it's a small section of the community that tries to enforce rules and restrictions, and so they got branded toxic for it.
    Just because you play a mode regularly doesn't mean you get to dictate who can and cannot come and play there.

    And there it is again: The big lie about GW2 raiding.
    No raider restricts you from doing raids. Never! Not a single time! Because they are physically unable to do so, even if they wanted to.
    You are free to open a group at anytime with who ever you want and start raiding on exactly the same difficulty as everyone else does.

    All raiders do is to refuse to WORK for you for free (also known as "deciding for myself who i spend my free time with"; strange concept isn't it), and let you capitalize on experience and practice they had to work themselves hard for. For most of them much harder than the "i can just read one of the 100 guides and watch some boss video, so i know what to do and have seen it before"-crowd nowadays.
    And even that's only half the truth as there are still enough raiders who help out ... 5-6 days a week after they have done their own weekly clear with people performing on the same level. (And -as described above- ignoring the fact that they usually pay for the privilige of helping less experienced players out)

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Just because you play a mode regularly doesn't mean you get to dictate who can and cannot come and play there.

    What happened to the famous "play how you want"? And really now? I can't choose who I play with? I can't choose how to spend my time in a video game that I play to relax and kill time? Am I not allowed to make choices in a video game?

    Of course you can choose! that's exactly the point the other side is making, You get to choose, and they don't get to due to the restrictions raiders have imposed on the content.
    You're not the one being pushed out of a game mode for "playing the wrong way" here, you're just defending those who do the pushing.
    And im just defending the criticisms of those who have been pushed out because I have personally witnessed the things many of them speak up about, the toxicity that you claim doesn't exist.
    I have seen it in various forms in various content against various people for the entirity of this game's lifespan, and even personally dealt with it as well.

    Essentially (and I do hope this is unintentional) you're justifying a kind of bullying behaviour that excludes people from raiding, in order to disregard their complaints about that behaviour.

    I'm not the one that wants to actively bully players into changing the way they play the game and calling them toxic when they don't play by your own expectations. Your argument in a simple phrase is: "anyone that doesn't conform to my own personal expectations is toxic", someday you might see how selfish and entitled that attitude is. How being disrespectful and inconsiderate of your fellow players makes you the one that is toxic and not the other way around. OR probably not.

    As I said in my first post in this thread:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1309964/#Comment_1309964

    "I'm not the one that wants to actively bully players into changing the way they play the game and calling them toxic when they don't play by your own expectations."

    That is literally what some raiders do to everyone that doesn't conform to their way of playing the content, honestly I am amazed you can make that claim and not see the hypocricy in stating it.
    But then you're not the one being bullied out of an entire game mode for choosing to play how you want to play.. but you are telling those that are that their opinions and criticisms don't matter when they speak up about it, and that's the only real issue I've taken with anything you've said in our discussion.

    I'm not the one being selfish or entitled here, I've made it pretty clear that I personally refuse to play with with certain players who's attitudes I percieve as being toxic.
    I don't want to be in their groups just as much as they don't want most people in theirs.
    All im doing is defending the opinions of people that you've literally said don't matter on the subject, that's all.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    My only suggestion to help reduce this "problem": Stop replying to posts talking about this so called "toxicity".
    In almost every single thread talking about toxicity, the OP is either the actual toxic one, or we simply don't get enough information about the situation, leading to the "toxicity just happens, move along", when in reality it's unlikely that there is any form of actual toxicity at work (other than the one making the claims in the first place)
    And I don't think there is any way to stop players from posting about toxicity without knowing what toxicity is, they will always do it, just ignore them, or set them straight when the OP is toxic, and move on.

    You've been nothing but negative, making half the posts in the last few pages adding almost nothing to the discussion, arguing with almost everyone. THIS is what I was talking about in my first post, a couple of forum posters blowing "problems" completely out of proportions and creating never ending discussions going in circles, that an external viewer might see and say "Look 15 pages of toxicity, there IS toxicity in the game!". I mean, the internet said something, so it must be true.

    I'm not surprised you'd think that way considering you've straight up said you dismiss pretty much every opinion on the subject based on those opinions coming from people who havent been able to raid.
    Not that that even applies to me in the first place, I have successfully raided with my own groups so my opinions by your standards do count even though you don't like them and are still trying to dismiss them.

    As for arguing with almost everyone, I made 1 comment based on 1 thing 1 person said who never even made a reply.
    It was you guys that first responded to my comment, which you could have just as easily ignored.
    If anything it was you guys started any "arguments" with me, and I'll quote "arguments" there since that's the word you used not me.
    As far as I'm concerned I don't regard any of this as an argument, a disagreement at best.

    It's up to those that claim toxicity exists, to prove that it does.

    And you failed to provide any kind of evidence that this toxicity exists inside the game, only your "personal experience", without any means to back it up.

    Many who has played this game regulalry for the last 8 years will have experienced or witnessed this toxicity on some level, the sheer amount of people who've spoken up about it, the amount of people like myself who have come out in support of those people's experiences and backed them up with our own.

    You can dismiss that all you like but it doesn't change anything, people are going to keep having those experiences so long as there are players who behave that way towards them, and as long as they do they're going to keep talking about them and nobody can stop that.
    They literally have nothing to loose by speaking up about it, you on the other hand.. well you've seen the sad state of raiding these days.

    Raids are quite literally in a "You need us, we don't need you" situation here, and im not saying that to be mean, it's just a bitter pill to swallow.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    For someone so concerned and against being told how to play you seen incredibly concerned with telling others how to play and use their time as long as it includes you.

    You clearly haven't read all my posts here man.
    I've made it pretty clear that I don't want "elite" players in my groups just as much as they don't want inexperienced raiders in theirs.

    I exclude myself! from their groups by choice not the other way around.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Some I'll agree but not all, there are a good number of us who make our own groups to avoid this very problem and still end up having to deal with toxic players who try to take them over.
    The vast majority of my personal negative experience with those kinds of players has been in groups I created, in fact I rarely ever join other peoples groups.

    "All Welcome" I put in every one of my group descriptions for a reason, I won't tolerate that kind of behaviour in my groups and I'd rather kick the "elite" player for being a D than dogpile on another player for not playing to the expecations of another.
    If that means I have to carry another player I will, and if that means we'll fail against something then so be it.. at least we'll have fun doing it.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I've made it pretty clear that I don't want "elite" players in my groups just as much as they don't want inexperienced raiders in theirs.

    That is literally what some raiders do to everyone that doesn't conform to their way of playing the content, honestly I am amazed you can make that claim and not see the hypocricy in stating it.

    I'm not the one being selfish or entitled here, I've made it pretty clear that I personally refuse to play with with certain players who's attitudes I percieve as being toxic.

    Now, let's flip the tables. It's toxic to keep the "elite" players from your group! They are not allowed to make their own group while excluding inexperienced players. How can't they see the hypocrisy? I'm not the one being entitled to the way I play!

    And on the serious note... You can play however you want with whoever you want and nobody can't stop you from doing so. You also can't tell others how they should play or who should or should not invite to their squads. Both sides can be toxic. But it's also toxic to notice one-sided point of view at best.

    Toxicity spreads when individuals don't meet whatever-the-flying-spaghetti-monster requirements somebody wishes their squad to have. But they join it anyway expecting... I don't know what.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @skarpak.8594 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    No content in this game is or should ever be restricted access to anyone, it's a small section of the community that tries to enforce rules and restrictions, and so they got branded toxic for it.
    Just because you play a mode regularly doesn't mean you get to dictate who can and cannot come and play there.

    i absolutly dictate who comes into my party and who doesn't when i open and organize said party...and it dosn't matter if its dungeons, openworld, raids or whatever content. i am not going to play with everyone and their mom if i do not want to and i will absolutly enforce the rules i put up.

    Your party, sure.. a whole game mode though? no.

    As i've pointed out in other posts, most of my experiences with these "toxic" players has been in my groups that they have attempted to take over and push others out of them.
    Something I won't tolerate and will result in me kicking them instead.

    The general accepted rule is form your own groups if you want to be the one who controls who comes and goes.
    Ironically we all agree on that and yet some still argue the "toxic" element is only one sided when it's clearly not.

    one of my rules for example is to never play with blocked people. sucks for them but i don't give a kitten. they will be kicked on sight.
    what are you going to do? report me to anet? try to change it?...go ahead and try it, silly person.

    I'm not arguing against that, I have the exact same rule myself and my block list is full of gold sellers, AFK farmers, toxic players who have tried to take over my groups or verbally abused other players while in them etc, including salty WvW and PvP players i've annoyed in the past by killing them.

    I don't believe in forgiving people so once someone earns a spot on my blacklist they're going to be there for life, and much like you in that regard I really couldn't give a kitten about them lol

    ...content in this game is not restricted for anyone, and if there are restrictions (level restrictions for pvp for example), then its there for a reason.
    group rules =/= player restriction.

    If it's part of the game i'll accept it, like the PvP level restriction.. just not player enforced rules that dictate how others have to play certain things.
    You can not invite me to your party, that's fine with me.
    And you can not want to play with me, that's also fine with me.
    But you can't tell me or anyone else that we have to play this way or that way if I want to do a Strike mission or a Raid, especially if you're the one joining our groups.. which has been the case for the majority of instances I have seen with so called "toxic" players.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Actually a more accurate analogy would be everyone in the private room hordes all the snacks and entertainment after you walk in, invites all the regular guests into the private room with them and leaves you standing in an empy room alone with the choices of leaving or waiting around for someone else to show up with the hope they won't walk right past you into the private room with everyone else.

    Actually a more accurate analogy would be someone joining a private room called "private room" without an invitation (or experience/kp) where every party member has said requirements except this certain individual who wondered in knowing it is indeed a private room. Everyone has right to have fun their own way. There is plenty more "rooms" around. Nobody is stopping you from throwing your own party in a private room with requirements that fit You.

    Entitlement breeds toxicity.

    At no time have I ever dismissed that some people join groups that they don't fit the requirements of.
    I agree that does happen, and I do not condone it.
    I just disagree that every single complaint made against raids is from players like that, which is largely what a lot of people on your side of the argument claim in most of these threads while simultaneously dismissing the complaints other people have had about raiders being toxic in their groups.

    If anything i accept there is a toxic element on both sides, im just only focusing my attention on the side I consider to be the bigger problem from my personal experience.

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I've made it pretty clear that I don't want "elite" players in my groups just as much as they don't want inexperienced raiders in theirs.

    That is literally what some raiders do to everyone that doesn't conform to their way of playing the content, honestly I am amazed you can make that claim and not see the hypocricy in stating it.

    I'm not the one being selfish or entitled here, I've made it pretty clear that I personally refuse to play with with certain players who's attitudes I percieve as being toxic.

    Now, let's flip the tables. It's toxic to keep the "elite" players from your group! They are not allowed to make their own group while excluding inexperienced players. How can't they see the hypocrisy? I'm not the one being entitled to the way I play!

    Hardly, they hold the same opinions, and mine comes as a direct result of their behaviour not the other way around.
    I'm very much the kind of person who treats people as they treat others, hence why i'll kick a good player for being a D to an inexperienced player and deal with the small handicap of having their inexperience in my group instead of the more experienced player who deserved the kick.

    And on the serious note... You can play however you want with whoever you want and nobody can't stop you from doing so. You also can't tell others how they should play or who should or should not invite to their squads. Both sides can be toxic. But it's also toxic to notice one-sided point of view at best.

    Toxicity spreads when individuals don't meet whatever-the-flying-spaghetti-monster requirements somebody wishes their squad to have. But they join it anyway expecting... I don't know what.

    I see both sides, I also see that one side largely dismisses the entire argument from the other which is the main thing I have a problem with.
    As MadDoc even admitted they think it's perfectly ok to dismiss peoples opinions on the grounds of being excluded from playing the content.

    That leans into what Ooops.8694 even admitted about accessability and I quote:
    "And regarding the people your analogy would imply the oh-so-low-number of raiders being a majority, with basically only single individuals trying to join raids... Okay, maybe that's even true."

    You say nothing is stopping us from forming our own groups and yes technically we can start our own groups and advertise them.
    But can we ever get a full party? no, very very rarely we can in most cases, even after waiting hours it's often a failure.
    The last time I tried to pug a raid in fact I had an all welcome LFG going for about 2 hours and only 3 people joined, and none of them were in the party at the same time either.

    This problem is a direct result of the stigma raids has gotten because of the raid community's "toxic" element, most people having been driven away by negative experiences so they don't even look at the raid LFG anymore and even when some do there are so few at any given time that playing the content becomes next to impossible because they just can't get a group.

    At that point their chances of success or failure in the actual content becomes completely irrelevant, they can't even get though the door to play it in the first palce.
    That is a big problem from where I sit and you regular raiders have suffered for it with a low population, resulting in raids not getting the time and resources you want Anet to give it.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ooops.8694 said:
    Sorry, but no! Every room (= raid instance) has exactly the same number of snacks and entertainment (=loot and bosses) and all the tables with snacks are equally distributed with some of them easier, some of them more difficult to reach (=bossfights).
    And regarding the people your analogy would imply the oh-so-low-number of raiders being a majority, with basically only single individuals trying to join raids... Okay, maybe that's even true. But then you actually made the point for us, that raiders aren't the problem, but all the non-raiders (and going from the (mostly unsupported) numbers thrown around in the forum non-raiders make up ~90-99% of the playerbase) not trying at all.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    No content in this game is or should ever be restricted access to anyone, it's a small section of the community that tries to enforce rules and restrictions, and so they got branded toxic for it.
    Just because you play a mode regularly doesn't mean you get to dictate who can and cannot come and play there.

    And there it is again: The big lie about GW2 raiding.
    No raider restricts you from doing raids. Never! Not a single time! Because they are physically unable to do so, even if they wanted to.
    You are free to open a group at anytime with who ever you want and start raiding on exactly the same difficulty as everyone else does.

    I should have clarified, the snacks were not a stand in for the loot/rewards.. was more a stand in for the allure or incentive for people to try raiding.
    In this case the raiders hording the snacks in the private room being an analogy for the raiders being the only people with incentive to play the content.
    Apologies for not specifying that one, I completely understand how it could have been mistaken for raid loot/rewards instead.. that was my bad.

    You were right about the entertainment being the content though, and that there are technecally other private rooms.. they just have a minimum party requirement of 10 people to access which is hard to get when you don't have the snacks lol
    I think we can drop the whole anaology thing now though xD

    Ultimately a lot of people have been put off raiding or even trying to, that's true but it's not because "raids are hard" from my experience most complaints I've always seen are "raids are too exclusive".
    At this point the best option people have is to find a training guild, which is an option but all of them work on the same player rules as the main raiding community.
    Basically "play how we want you to play" which isn't fun for a lot of people and a big turn off.

    For those who want to raid for fun but also play how they want to play, there isn't really any options at all for them, and that I would say is the main issue for a lot of people who would otherwise get into playing raids.

    You would probably call it "casual" raiding.. and I'd probably agree with the term, but what we can both agree on is that this doesn't even exist in Gw2 as an option for those players, Even strikes which came along to entice more people into raid like content with easier raid like content ended up picking up the same issues many had with raids in the first place, and now people also feel excluded from that content too.

    This is the same issue that once plagued dungeons and Fractals too many years ago as i've pointed out a few times now.
    There was always an "elite" community in that content that excluded others based on what they wanted in their groups.. but they were never as strict as the current raid community is.
    So eventually a more casual community was able to build up as Dungeons and Fractals as well so there was a place for everyone to enjoy the content.
    Raids has failed entirely to build up that casual community and now suffers this low pop and low interest problem.

    All raiders do is to refuse to WORK for you for free (also known as "deciding for myself who i spend my free time with"; strange concept isn't it), and let you capitalize on experience and practice they had to work themselves hard for. For most of them much harder than the "i can just read one of the 100 guides and watch some boss video, so i know what to do and have seen it before"-crowd nowadays.
    And even that's only half the truth as there are still enough raiders who help out ... 5-6 days a week after they have done their own weekly clear with people performing on the same level. (And -as described above- ignoring the fact that they usually pay for the privilige of helping less experienced players out)

    The only way anyone works for someone else for free is if that someone else spends practically 100% of their time with their face in the dirt.. not saying that doesn't happen though i've seen it too lol.
    For the most part so long as everyone survives they are technically contributing, it's more a matter of how much compared to others and what difference is acceptable to you.
    Personally I don't care if I have to carry people, in fact I quite enjoy acting as other's safety net, but that's not for everyone.. I get that.

    The "i can just read one of the 100 guides and watch some boss video, so i know what to do and have seen it before" thing is actually something I agree with you on.

    I am 100% of the mind that watching guides and videos about stuff means absolutely nothing compared to actually having hands on experience with it.
    This was actually one of the biggest arguments I made a long time ago for promoting rewardless easy mode raids for training purposes.
    Exactly the same bosses, with the same mechanics.. just no one shot kills so people could play and experience the content in a less punishing environment so they could lean what to do and how each boss works quicker and easier then take that experience into the real thing later on which would be a big help for a lot of people.
    I still to this day firmly believe this would be a good thing for the game and might even make a lot of people reconsider trying to raid, thus possibly fixing your low population problem.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    That is literally what some raiders do to everyone that doesn't conform to their way of playing the content, honestly I am amazed you can make that claim and not see the hypocricy in stating it.

    On one hand you complain that others want players to conform to their ideas and call it toxic, and then your entire argument is about forcing players to conform to YOUR own expectations. Talking about hypocrisy.

    Many who has played this game regulalry for the last 8 years will have experienced or witnessed this toxicity on some level, the sheer amount of people who've spoken up about it, the amount of people like myself who have come out in support of those people's experiences and backed them up with our own.

    On the forums yes? In game? Maybe on some level. But that's THE question which you fail to answer. Is it an actual/factual problem or a perceived problem by people like you blowing things out of proportion on forums? I'd say the latter. How many times in the last 8 years have you experienced toxicity? As for your sheer amount of people who've spoken about it, I'd say once more than the vast majority where the toxic ones when they made their posts about it. And then the threads where hijacked by people like you, projecting their OWN arguments that have little to nothing with the situation experienced.

    You can dismiss that all you like but it doesn't change anything, people are going to keep having those experiences so long as there are players who behave that way towards them, and as long as they do they're going to keep talking about them and nobody can stop that.

    That's the unfortunate part and I don't think there is any solution to the problem of very vocal posters talking about situations they never experienced and calling them facts and then labeling entire segments of the player base. Without a shred of evidence to back up their claims. Like: "Many who has played this game regulalry for the last 8 years will have experienced or witnessed this toxicity on some level" arguments like this, with zero evidence to back up, is what creates toxicity in the first place.

    This is why it's called perceived toxicity, it exists outside the game, inflamed, enlarged and shared by players like yourself. It's like those internet trolls sharing rumors and fake news and spread them all over, without a shred of evidence to back anything up and then the sheep read it and say "someone said it on the internet so it must be true". See you in game where this toxicity you are talking about isn't an issue.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Just because you play a mode regularly doesn't mean you get to dictate who can and cannot come and play there.

    What happened to the famous "play how you want"? And really now? I can't choose who I play with? I can't choose how to spend my time in a video game that I play to relax and kill time? Am I not allowed to make choices in a video game?

    Of course you can choose! that's exactly the point the other side is making, You get to choose, and they don't get to due to the restrictions raiders have imposed on the content.
    You're not the one being pushed out of a game mode for "playing the wrong way" here, you're just defending those who do the pushing.

    This is untrue. No one is pushing any one out. Every player has the exactly same ability to raid, make parties, take on the content.

    That's not true though, they don't have the same accessability to those things, if they did they wouldn't struggle trying to get into this content like they have nor experienced all the negative experiences they've complained about.
    As I said in another post i've first hand experience with that by making "All Welcome" groups and having LFG's going for hours without even half a party forming.
    It's because there is no "casual" community pressence in raids like there is with dungeons and fractals and that is a big problem in this game where the vast majority of the playerbase is described as "casual".

    What you are equating is players with better social structures in game, more experience, more connections, ability to fill more role and thus be more desired, etc. to have a better chance at clearing content or get taken in a group versus someone who has none of those things. That's called specialization and it's exists everywhere where challenge is present. That's not denying anyone else or imposing restrictions.

    You're not entirely wrong but it definitely does impose restrictions, specially in a game as casual based as Gw2 is.
    It's true this concept exists in many other games as well but the divide is often much smaller and raids tend to cater to and be accessable to a significant portion of those games player bases.

    With Gw2 it's kind of the opposite and raids only cater to a very small minority instead hence your low pop problem.
    The only 2 ways I can think of that would change that without adding any kind of easy mode, is either Anet nukes the raid content difficulty to be more "casual" friendly thus diminishing the meta requirements that exist in riads atm.. but that would justifyably result in outrage from the raiders.
    Or raiders start being more willing to take on people they don't want to.. which is equally as outrageous to raiders as well.

    Neither are good, even I agree to that.
    But if you want raids to be a bigger part of this game then you need more people playing it, that's just a hard truth im afraid.
    And that's not going to be an easy thing to pull off either when so many people have had negative experiences with other players while trying to raid and have thus become completley disinterested in the content as a result.. hence the feeling of being "pushed/bullied out" I was talking about in another post.

    But like I also said in another post, raiders are the only ones who have something to loose here, nobody else does.
    To the vast majority if no more raids or strikes were added to the game, they wouldn't care.. that's why you need them.

    This gets brought up every single time, but all it takes to raid is 9 other players of similar mind. That's it. There are multiple ways to approach this, but let's narrow them down to 2:
    A. approach this with the mindset: "the group is supposed to take me along because I want to", and you will likely run into issues
    B. approach this with the mindset:"I will provide the group with something they require", and you will likely run into no issues.

    That's all it is. There is no gating. No one is holding a gun to new players and restricting their entry. On the contrary, many experienced raiders offer help and trainings.

    Choice is not a 1 sided coin. Freedom of choice means you have to also respect the choice someone else might make.

    Getting 9 players with a similar mind isn't easy though, specially when the vast majority of people who were originally open to raiding have lost that interest due to their experiences with it.

    The only real options to get into it now are, Join a training group, largely found through guilds.. but I have never seen one that encourages you to come as you are and play what you think works for you so you can figure out your raid build on your own.

    Instead they always have rules, restrictions and demands.. because they all follow the same player imposed meta's, rules and restrictions as the typical raiders do.
    They're not "All are Welcome" as they often proclaim to be but rather "All are Welcome so long as you conform to our demands" which is not the same thing.

    In regards to A. though, I don't agree with those players either nor am I arguing for them.
    Joining specified groups that you don't meet the requirements for is just foolish, I do not support this behaviour either and have stated so many times.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    And im just defending the criticisms of those who have been pushed out because I have personally witnessed the things many of them speak up about, the toxicity that you claim doesn't exist.
    I have seen it in various forms in various content against various people for the entirity of this game's lifespan, and even personally dealt with it as well.

    Except you are not defending any one. You are making excuses why some players are to be allowed to dictate other how they should play and whom they should play with.

    If I don't want to play with someone that is MY CHOICE. The other person might disagree, be unhappy, complain, argue, but in the end, they have no say in the matter. The flip side to this: if someone does not want to play with me, I might disagree, be unhappy, complain, argue, but in the end, I have no say in the matter.

    That's how this would look if it were equal for all sides.

    And yet im not arguing for you to be forced to play with anyone you don't want to, I reserve that right myself.

    All im defending is the complaints and criticisms people have had with "toxic" behavious in this games endgame content which is something I have witnessed myself many times over the 8 years i've been playing this game.
    The main reason for that being that too often I see people completely invalidate those criticisms by saying the problems don't exist or they should just be ignored.
    People with those attitudes are doing more harm to raiding than anything else is, they are essentially personifying that very "toxicity" that people complain about in the first place and contributing the the so called "agenda" they claim is being pushed against raiding in the first place.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    That is literally what some raiders do to everyone that doesn't conform to their way of playing the content, honestly I am amazed you can make that claim and not see the hypocricy in stating it.

    On one hand you complain that others want players to conform to their ideas and call it toxic, and then your entire argument is about forcing players to conform to YOUR own expectations. Talking about hypocrisy.

    That is not my argument at all, im not the one forcing anyone to play my way or anyone elses, that's what you guys do.
    I just pointed out the hypocricy of you claiming that in defense of a community that does demand others conform to your standands if they want to play a whole game mode that you guys have essentially created a monopoly on.

    My main argument is and always has been that there is a toxic player element on your side which has effected the playerbases interest in the game mode.. resulting in the low population problem raids has.

    Many who has played this game regulalry for the last 8 years will have experienced or witnessed this toxicity on some level, the sheer amount of people who've spoken up about it, the amount of people like myself who have come out in support of those people's experiences and backed them up with our own.

    On the forums yes? In game? Maybe on some level. But that's THE question which you fail to answer. Is it an actual/factual problem or a perceived problem by people like you blowing things out of proportion on forums? I'd say the latter. How many times in the last 8 years have you experienced toxicity? As for your sheer amount of people who've spoken about it, I'd say once more than the vast majority where the toxic ones when they made their posts about it. And then the threads where hijacked by people like you, projecting their OWN arguments that have little to nothing with the situation experienced.

    You're asking me to recall very specific details from multiple different instances over an 8 year period lol that's just not going to happen im afraid.
    The best I can give you is:
    "How many times in the last 8 years have you experienced toxicity?" Against me? probably around 20-40 times, most of it in the earlier years of the game.
    Against others that I have personally witnessed? probably in the ballpark of 300 or so cases.. but that is a rough estimate at best, I don't have the exact numbers nor any way to obtain them so ultimately the figures are irrelevant, but having seen a lot of it is not.

    And this is a thread about toxicity in raiding, perceived or otherwise doesn't really matter since it's all relevant.
    The OP said in their first post.
    "When new players think that raiders are toxic it will scare people away which is a problem as it might be content they enjoy."

    This is an absolutely true statement and one of the biggest reasons I know a lot of people don't raid nor try to anymore, which is why it's difficult for others like myself who don't want to play with the "elite" raider crowd, to find enough people to raid with in the first place.. ergo that monopoly I was talking about earlier.
    People perceeve raiders are toxic because some of them are and get defended when people call them out for it.

    I came here and commented because I know and have seen that there is a "toxic" element contributing to the reasons people don't raid.. and i've seen many people state as much more or less since raids were added to this game.
    You've been the one most of all in this thread that has personified that toxicity by stating that these peoples opinions and criticisms don't even matter and should be dismissed/disregarded..
    To me, you became the proof of toxicity that you asked for when you made that statement.

    You can dismiss that all you like but it doesn't change anything, people are going to keep having those experiences so long as there are players who behave that way towards them, and as long as they do they're going to keep talking about them and nobody can stop that.

    That's the unfortunate part and I don't think there is any solution to the problem of very vocal posters talking about situations they never experienced and calling them facts and then labeling entire segments of the player base. Without a shred of evidence to back up their claims. Like: "Many who has played this game regulalry for the last 8 years will have experienced or witnessed this toxicity on some level" arguments like this, with zero evidence to back up, is what creates toxicity in the first place.

    This is why it's called perceived toxicity, it exists outside the game, inflamed, enlarged and shared by players like yourself. It's like those internet trolls sharing rumors and fake news and spread them all over, without a shred of evidence to back anything up and then the sheep read it and say "someone said it on the internet so it must be true". See you in game where this toxicity you are talking about isn't an issue.

    Likewise there is likely no solution to the problem of raiders talking about situations they have never experienced and instantly calling them falsehoods either.. it goes both ways im afraid.
    I know the toxic players you are talking about exist.. those who join groups they shouldn't etc I've seen them myself and i've never disputed their existence.

    It's the other side that doesn't get the same fair treatment.. and it's people like me and others I can relate to theough shared experience who get our experiences dismissed entirely by people just because they havent personally experienced it.. it's annoying considering how long these "toxicity" elements, Both of them! have been in the game.
    I don't know when you started playing Gw2, but it was well known in dungeon content back in the day coming from the Meta crowds as well as fractals when that first came in too.
    Raids are just the new shiney... well specifically strikes are the new shiny but you get the point.

    If this problem didn't exist as you claim, then the whole concept of "elitism" which has existed in almsot every multiplayer game ever! wouldn't even exist.
    It does though for a reason.
    "toxicity" is basically nothing more than just a replacement word for the same behaviours, largely due to it's current popularity in modern society.
    15 years ago we said elitist, now it's toxic.. there's no real difference.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    That is not my argument at all, im not the one forcing anyone to play my way or anyone elses, that's what you guys do.

    Your entire argument is to force players to play your way though. You are against freedom of choice, you are against free will and want some mindless drones playing the game like it's a job, without any say in how to play or who to play with. Your hypocrisy is overflowing all over your arguments.

    My main argument is and always has been that there is a toxic player element on your side which has effected the playerbases interest in the game mode.. resulting in the low population problem raids has.

    Lack of developer effort, misleading comments and false expectations is what led to low population in Raids. Oh and lack of overall game population. Also, players like you spreading "toxicity" arguments luring players away and creating the myth of the toxic playerbase.

    I don't know when you started playing Gw2, but it was well known in dungeon content back in the day coming from the Meta crowds as well as fractals when that first came in too.

    I started around beta. "Well known" needs some reference. I'm willing to bet it's people like you spreading that "toxicity" argument on the forums about dungeons and fractals, same way you are doing it now about Raids.

    If this problem didn't exist as you claim, then the whole concept of "elitism" which has existed in almsot every multiplayer game ever! wouldn't even exist.

    Maybe because this concept of "toxicity" exists well on the internet? Someone taking a rumor or fake news and spreading it, making it go viral, doesn't make it any less of a rumor or fake news.

    And this is a thread about toxicity in raiding, perceived or otherwise doesn't really matter since it's all relevant.

    You should reread the opening post of the thread.

    The perceived toxicity that gets complained about. Because it doesn't really matter that it's a false observation
    When new players think that raiders are toxic it will scare people away which is a problem as it might be content they enjoy.

    This is about people like you spreading toxicity and scaring people away, damaging the game's population as a whole. When you realize your hypocritical arguments are the reason this perceived toxicity exists, and not the other way around, you will figure out that the problem is people like you, vocal posters on forums posting about things they have no clue about.

    And since you brought it up, I haven't seen much discussion on the actual topic yet, how to reduce the effect of the perceived toxicity on the game. I stand by my initial post, the best solution to the forum toxicity is to ignore it, I think it's time I take my own advice. Until there is discussion on the actual problem with suggestions how to solve it, instead of arguing over nothing.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    And since you brought it up, I haven't seen much discussion on the actual topic yet, how to reduce the effect of the perceived toxicity on the game. I stand by my initial post, the best solution to the forum toxicity is to ignore it, I think it's time I take my own advice. Until there is discussion on the actual problem with suggestions how to solve it, instead of arguing over nothing.

    It's important to pinpoint the source of named "toxicity". We are battling with the symptoms instead of the cause of this disease. I tried to do something of a sort with my last thread which revealed some problems within the community. To be honest, I don't think there is a cure. This type of mindset is hardcoded in some people's minds. Kindly asking of them to ... let's say "behave" - just like in Teratu's case might help the situation. But there are others, more well-spoken people on the forums who do it better than me :)

  • SidewayS.3789SidewayS.3789 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 : you want to know a magic trick? Create your own LFG. Ez ! Now go back to your game and try my magic trick. You said raiders are toxic, but reading your comments its you (and other players like you) who are wayyyyyyy toxic than the others. End of story/thread imo.

    🔥 Dûmaat 🔥
    💥 We dreamed up false gods, great demons 💥
    🔥 Fractal God 🔥

  • Ooops.8694Ooops.8694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    As I said in another post i've first hand experience with that by making "All Welcome" groups and having LFG's going for hours without even half a party forming.
    It's because there is no "casual" community pressence in raids like there is with dungeons and fractals and that is a big problem in this game where the vast majority of the playerbase is described as "casual".

    Ok, i counter your first hand experience with my own. After reading your post i logged into the game, took a few fast screenshots and logged out. All in less than 2 minutes...
    So here are 3 of the 11 lfg posts up about 10 minutes! ago:

    That's no requirements there at all, aside from one requirering you to know how to play a specific role at Qadim. And 2 of these filled up in the few seconds it took me to read all lfgs.

    Are we sure we're playing the same Guild Wars 2?

    (And as one random time is of course of very low statistical relevance, i will just add some more in an hour or 2...)

    PS: I hope you meant to say "like there WAS with dungeons" as that's the lfg really dead.