Every class is too OP for some reason. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Every class is too OP for some reason.

;) Not meant to be taken seriously. I understand both sides of the story. But sometimes you just gotta laugh at what I consider GW2 culture.

Players who have never played that class for long enough: This class is OP af. Nerf immediately anet.

Player who mains that class: Wow this class is so weak Anet. Please make this class stronger.

Player 1 ugh you just don't understand how OP this class is.

Player 2 This class is weak as kitten. Here is a screenshot of me in my underwear as proof You were fighting a good player not an OP class.

Player 3 If only they had no class defences I could win! That's the problem with classes these days, they can defend themselves and stuff like that.

Player 4 Are you tired of players who defend themselves against you trying to gut them where they stand?

Player 5 Are you tired of players who one shot you through all your defences and the combat log doesn't really know what killed you?

Combat log time 1:01: Player did a teeny bit of damage

Combat log time 1:01: Player did a teeny bit of damage

Combat log time 1:01: System error. Forgotten to calculate how that killed you with no chance to react.

Player 6: If other players could just 'git bad' it would make me git gud by definition. Help me with the dream and stand still.

Player 7: But I'm killing to make money to look after my pets. I need to be alive to feed my jaguar, my bear, my ... I will not stand still.

Comments

  • Lynx.9058Lynx.9058 Member ✭✭

    That's kind of the status quo for nearly every competitive/player-vs-player game on the market. People always think if they lose it's because the game was imbalanced, because they couldn't possibly be worse than the other person.

    It's a direct result of so many kids growing up with these games and having their self esteem and sense of worth connected directly to their online persona.

  • Katelynn.6593Katelynn.6593 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lynx.9058 said:
    That's kind of the status quo for nearly every competitive/player-vs-player game on the market. People always think if they lose it's because the game was imbalanced, because they couldn't possibly be worse than the other person.

    It's a direct result of so many kids growing up with these games and having their self esteem and sense of worth connected directly to their online persona.

    I know right. People need to accept that unless their at the top in terms of skill and talent, there will always be someone who can down them.

    Heck there will be players who aren't built to counter you and who actually have weaknesses that you can exploit. Yet they still win because they have more experience.

    Experience encompasses so much

    Experienced players with a lot of experience don't mind blank in an oh kitten moment

    Experienced players know how to use terrain to their advantage

    Experienced players see telegraphs. They even notice the more subtle telegraph's. Newbs are like "kitten just happened?"

    Experienced players have quicker reaction and adaptation times.

    Experienced players have better mouse control and co-ordination.

    Sometimes a player isn't even a bad player. Sometimes they're a good player who got into a fight with a great player. And a great player is going to make them feel like a loser.

    For me you know you're a good player if you either use the right counter to the ability or you would have used it if it was available.

    Being a great player means you know to do all that and you can use terrain to give yourself time to get your defensive counter skills back. But another player might still have amazing mobility to chase you around terrain and stop your recovery. But all things being equal you know how to use terrain.

    Being a pro player means a team of average players has to make you the main target to ever catch you unprepared without a skill you need at the time.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    you not properly read treads. Mostly all topic about nerf or boos I read as fun post from troll, or noob, or just bored person.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • kybraga.7103kybraga.7103 Member ✭✭✭

    Allow me to condense that OP post.

    Man, [Not my class] is OP and needs nerfed. [My class] is weak and needs buffed.

  • Katelynn.6593Katelynn.6593 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Dear Balance Team:

    Rock is OP, please nerf. Paper is fine.

    Sincerely,
    Scissors.

    More seriously, there is a tendency for people who only play some of the options in a competitive game to have an inflated idea of the power of the things they don't play compared to what they do play, and I don't think this is entirely out of intellectual dishonesty but more due to having an imbalanced knowledge of the game. If you play X and get killed by Y, which you don't play, you've probably just had an object lesson in Y's strengths, but might have no idea of Y's weaknesses. They might have just pulled off something that involves blowing all their cooldowns and they'll be vulnerable for a while afterwards. It might have been some complex synergy that's hard to pull off and since you didn't recognise what they were doing, you didn't do the thing that could have stopped them in their tracks. Or it might be that you've just run into your hard counter, but you're completely unaware that Y is equally hard countered by Z, which you also don't play. All that you know is that you have a hard time against Y while not realising that Y has its own complications which might make it just as hard to succeed with as your own X.

    Because of this, I tend to operate on a principle of not calling anything OP unless I've played it myself. If I haven't played it... well, I can say it's annoying, but it's entirely possible that if I play it myself I'll find that it's actually more complicated than it looks and is a poor matchup against most professions, and whatever I was playing beforehand just happened to be something it does well against. If I try something out and then start absolutely dominating despite having basically no experience on that build, on the other hand... then it's pretty safe to call it OP.

    (Scourge on release was OP. I tried it out, and on the very first time out I was winning outnumbered fights. That was a little bit ridiculous.)

    But even so... so many times I see a thread asking to nerf something, and I'm wondering... do you actually know the balance state of what you're demanding nerfs for, or are you just demanding nerfs for something that beats you without knowing anything more than that you have trouble against it? Because the truth is that some builds are just good at countering others, while being countered in turn by other builds.

    Okay your definition of OP is actually pretty reasonable. Full on agree with everything else you've said. There's also other factors to consider, you've PVPed on other classes, so you're probably going to have basic core mechanics like LoS, movement, managing cool downs, keeping calm under pressure etc, and those important skills get carried over to whatever class is played. So you weren't new and that would affect how well you did with scourge. Also it's possible scourge was the counter build to the players you fought. It's also possible you were fighting opponents who aren't as good.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Katelynn.6593 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Dear Balance Team:

    Rock is OP, please nerf. Paper is fine.

    Sincerely,
    Scissors.

    More seriously, there is a tendency for people who only play some of the options in a competitive game to have an inflated idea of the power of the things they don't play compared to what they do play, and I don't think this is entirely out of intellectual dishonesty but more due to having an imbalanced knowledge of the game. If you play X and get killed by Y, which you don't play, you've probably just had an object lesson in Y's strengths, but might have no idea of Y's weaknesses. They might have just pulled off something that involves blowing all their cooldowns and they'll be vulnerable for a while afterwards. It might have been some complex synergy that's hard to pull off and since you didn't recognise what they were doing, you didn't do the thing that could have stopped them in their tracks. Or it might be that you've just run into your hard counter, but you're completely unaware that Y is equally hard countered by Z, which you also don't play. All that you know is that you have a hard time against Y while not realising that Y has its own complications which might make it just as hard to succeed with as your own X.

    Because of this, I tend to operate on a principle of not calling anything OP unless I've played it myself. If I haven't played it... well, I can say it's annoying, but it's entirely possible that if I play it myself I'll find that it's actually more complicated than it looks and is a poor matchup against most professions, and whatever I was playing beforehand just happened to be something it does well against. If I try something out and then start absolutely dominating despite having basically no experience on that build, on the other hand... then it's pretty safe to call it OP.

    (Scourge on release was OP. I tried it out, and on the very first time out I was winning outnumbered fights. That was a little bit ridiculous.)

    But even so... so many times I see a thread asking to nerf something, and I'm wondering... do you actually know the balance state of what you're demanding nerfs for, or are you just demanding nerfs for something that beats you without knowing anything more than that you have trouble against it? Because the truth is that some builds are just good at countering others, while being countered in turn by other builds.

    Okay your definition of OP is actually pretty reasonable. Full on agree with everything else you've said. There's also other factors to consider, you've PVPed on other classes, so you're probably going to have basic core mechanics like LoS, movement, managing cool downs, keeping calm under pressure etc, and those important skills get carried over to whatever class is played. So you weren't new and that would affect how well you did with scourge. Also it's possible scourge was the counter build to the players you fought. It's also possible you were fighting opponents who aren't as good.

    If only I'd actually needed to do that stuff. From memory, it was pretty much dropping a shade on them, getting up in their faces, and facerolling the shade skills for a week or so.

    I will say, though, that it continued to be nerfed after the point at which I thought it was reasonable. Which leads into another trend I've seen in balance discussions - once people get the idea that something is OP, it pretty much takes them being nerfed to the point where nobody uses them to break that idea. Happened with Scourge, and I'm seeing it happen with Firebrand now. Yeah, Firebrand was pretty dominant for a while, but observation of the metrics now pretty strongly indicates that it's just not there any more: it's becoming an uncommon sight in matches, I'm generally more concerned nowadays when I see one on my team than the enemy team, the bunker support firebrand just simply doesn't exist any more, and remaining firebrand builds haven't been regarded as 'meta' for a while now (except in the sense that they're regarded as the best option guardians have). But the knives are still out because, I guess, it's not yet so dead that a good enough player can't succeed with it, and every so often people run into one of those players and oh no, I lost to a firebrand, clearly they're still OP!

    (And, for the record, I haven't played any form of guardian in sPvP in months. I've got all the achievements I can get through playing guardian in PvP, so I've been focusing on professions that I don't yet have all the achievements for. No skin off my nose if guardian ends up as bad in PvP as warrior is regarded as being at the moment.)

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well, pretty much every profession have their share of OP mechanisms without which they wouldn't work at all. That's normal that players find other professions OP, what's abnormal is that they ignore their own OP mechanisms. There are designs that are fondamentally wrong within the game but since they are the corner stone on which the different professions rely ANet just turn a blind eye on them.
    For example:

    • The warrior need long duration Hard CC for both it's defense and offense, he is design around the fact that he got access to them, however, long duration hard CC are a mechanism that's neither fun to play nor fun to play against.
    • The thief is designed around dealing short but high burst of damage from stealth, without that they barely work. However, because of this design they are permanently on the edge of the hammer nerf since 2013.
    • The necromancer rely on the shroud that's basically it's whole offense and defense in a single package. Who the hell thought that having your dps A game on your main damage mitigating skill would be a good idea?
    • ... etc.

    The game is just filled with monstruous designs and ANet push the different professions closer and closer to them seemingly oblivious to the fact that they are the things that create complains within the community (yet nobody would give up it's own OP mechanism, fighting hard to defend it).

  • MarzAttakz.9608MarzAttakz.9608 Member ✭✭✭

    IMO at one point core was fairly well balanced, I had my pet hate classes as an Ele main (warrior sustain + dmg OP, thief stealth burst OP, mesmer just confounded the kitten out of me so OP) - but overall it wasn't bad. It was the introduction of e-specs that started the landslide to what we have today. Add on top that the various "rebalances" a fractured design team attempted (introduction of ferocity, expertise, concentration etc, the huge whack-a-mole sustain reduction, the great damage reduction which effectively re-introduced sustain) and kitten is just that kitten.

    Are there still OP specs? Yes I'm afraid in WvW there definitely are, I can't comment on sPvp or Raids.

    Deso since 2012. Elementalist for life.
    [EXG][TAG]

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MarzAttakz.9608 said:
    IMO at one point core was fairly well balanced, I had my pet hate classes as an Ele main (warrior sustain + dmg OP, thief stealth burst OP, mesmer just confounded the kitten out of me so OP) - but overall it wasn't bad. It was the introduction of e-specs that started the landslide to what we have today. Add on top that the various "rebalances" a fractured design team attempted (introduction of ferocity, expertise, concentration etc, the huge whack-a-mole sustain reduction, the great damage reduction which effectively re-introduced sustain) and kitten is just that kitten.

    Are there still OP specs? Yes I'm afraid in WvW there definitely are, I can't comment on sPvp or Raids.

    Hm, it depends on your point of view, I guess.

    As an engineer main, I consider e-specs to be a blessing. Engineer as a class got handled poorly, they were the "jack of all trades, master of none" class for a very long time in the beginning. Engineer could do basically everything, but nothing of it on a competitive level.

    Getting accepted in groups as an engineer was hard. You were basically just a "worse elementalist" and nothing else.
    Elite specs give us the option to specialise in something. Holosmith gives engineer quite alot of additional damage, which makes us good damage dealers for end game content. I am also still hoping that our next elite spec will be support focused and give us the ability to share important boons with allies, so engineer might become a viable healing support for raids, too.

    Granted, other classes might not feel the same. Since other classes were already competitive at some roles, like thief always has been able to deal alot of damage.
    But in general, I think giving us the option to specialise through elite specs was the right thing to do.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2020

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    As an engineer main, I consider e-specs to be a blessing. Engineer as a class got handled poorly, they were the "jack of all trades, master of none" class for a very long time in the beginning. Engineer could do basically everything, but nothing of it on a competitive level.

    Pre HoT 'Pre e-specs) engineer was one of the strongest PvP profession. I'd say that it was in a pretty good spot at that moment.

    Getting accepted in groups as an engineer was hard. You were basically just a "worse elementalist" and nothing else.

    In PvE, everything was a worse elementalist pre HoT, no in fact at the very least the engineer had quite a lot of blasts and a convenient fire field on short CD. What it lacked was what every other professions lacked: FrostBow and Fiery GS.
    In WvW the engineer's field, utility and survivability were just right, I doubt you'd have been discriminated against there with an engineer.

    Granted, other classes might not feel the same. Since other classes were already competitive at some roles, like thief always has been able to deal alot of damage.

    That's not really true, the thief have always been able to deal high burst, not "a lot of damage". For a long time the thief benchmark wasn't really competitive and pre HoT, the thief was more a nice profession to help your group skip trash mobs in dungeons than a dps asset (I can tell because I had to prove to a group that the thief wasn't kitten pre HoT and before some convenient dungeon strategy using thief were released). With fractals, then raids and the removal of some PvE gameplay possibilities (like skipping trash in stealth or projectiles to block) the thief lost a lot of value in PvE. While it's value remained the same in sPvP/WvW.

    A good point to keep in mind is that the engineer also had access to a smoke field for trash skipping (thought it wasn't as usefull than a thief's access to group stealth).

    But in general, I think giving us the option to specialise through elite specs was the right thing to do.

    I'd agree with you, but I think that there should have been a "core e-spec" to be "fair". When ANet moved from the old system to the specialization system, I think they made a mistake to keep all the specializations available to the e-specs. This opened room for abuses and broke balance (in my opinion).

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2020

    @kybraga.7103 said:
    Allow me to condense that OP post.

    Man, [Not my class] is OP and needs nerfed. [My class] is weak and needs buffed.

    So.. yea.. i've played Thief for 4 years. Now main Guardian for maybe 3 years. I bet you can easily understand why the switch.

    And after these 3 years i still say "Dang.. Guard is OP AF. A complete beast.". And whenever i try to play Thief i still say "Dang this is sucha weakling no sustain at all and even dmg isnt as high as it used to be.." So i guess im still Thief main after these years right?

    Watcha gotta say about that? U can't ignore the fact that some classes are way stronger then others. And if u want to have an easy time in this game u gotta play what's OP and not what you enjoy. Sad that it is like that but it is like that.

    Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600

    So who's the Thief now?
    2019.04.23 -Anet

  • @Dave.6819 said:

    @kybraga.7103 said:
    Allow me to condense that OP post.

    Man, [Not my class] is OP and needs nerfed. [My class] is weak and needs buffed.

    So.. yea.. i've played Thief for 4 years. Now main Guardian for maybe 3 years. I bet you can easily understand why the switch.

    And after these 3 years i still say "Dang.. Guard is OP AF. A complete beast.". And whenever i try to play Thief i still say "Dang this is sucha weakling no sustain at all and even dmg isnt as high as it used to be.." So i guess im still Thief main after these years right?

    Watcha gotta say about that? U can't ignore the fact that some classes are way stronger then others. And if u want to have an easy time in this game u gotta play what's OP and not what you enjoy. Sad that it is like that but it is like that.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Unfortunately Profession/Build balancing in this game is a nightmare.

    Some games have scissor-paper-stone style of Gameplay balancing, like Starcraft for example.

    Some games have an arms race like balancing where each side or player aims to increase their edge over the other players through upgrades over time, like MobAs and items.

    Some games have archetypes function and fail according to design, which is the case of most action combat mmorpgs out there.

    Gw2 however, has none of these.

    In Gw2, if yu want an easy win yu just pick the build with the most of everything.

    That's why Herald was so strong, that's why Guardian is still so strong, that's why Boonbeast was insane before nerfs, that's why Holo was dominating for many years.

    Yu just played the build that is able to stack as many Boons, as much HoT/Sustain, has a nifty panic button, and voila yu have the new meta build.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭

    And? Both players are quite terrible and this video barely proves anything of how things are today.

    Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600

    So who's the Thief now?
    2019.04.23 -Anet

  • They're both terrible means aka they're of equal skill. Yet the thief still won 2/3.

    Even today if you eavesdrop on PVP casual chat in the lobby you will hear casual line drops about thief being so OP right now.

    It's all up to interpretation.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:
    Unfortunately Profession/Build balancing in this game is a nightmare.

    Some games have scissor-paper-stone style of Gameplay balancing, like Starcraft for example.

    Some games have an arms race like balancing where each side or player aims to increase their edge over the other players through upgrades over time, like MobAs and items.

    Some games have archetypes function and fail according to design, which is the case of most action combat mmorpgs out there.

    Gw2 however, has none of these.

    In Gw2, if yu want an easy win yu just pick the build with the most of everything.

    That's why Herald was so strong, that's why Guardian is still so strong, that's why Boonbeast was insane before nerfs, that's why Holo was dominating for many years.

    Yu just played the build that is able to stack as many Boons, as much HoT/Sustain, has a nifty panic button, and voila yu have the new meta build.

    'That's nice. Good for you.' The necro says.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:
    Unfortunately Profession/Build balancing in this game is a nightmare.

    Some games have scissor-paper-stone style of Gameplay balancing, like Starcraft for example.

    Some games have an arms race like balancing where each side or player aims to increase their edge over the other players through upgrades over time, like MobAs and items.

    Some games have archetypes function and fail according to design, which is the case of most action combat mmorpgs out there.

    Gw2 however, has none of these.

    In Gw2, if yu want an easy win yu just pick the build with the most of everything.

    That's why Herald was so strong, that's why Guardian is still so strong, that's why Boonbeast was insane before nerfs, that's why Holo was dominating for many years.

    Yu just played the build that is able to stack as many Boons, as much HoT/Sustain, has a nifty panic button, and voila yu have the new meta build.

    I play guard and I know what you mean but also on the other side I play weaver which has basically nothing for DPS-PvP play any more (after troll nerfs)

    • the class had always a low HP pool
    • 1 stunbreak skill on weaver (Twist of Fate) others have 4 or 5
    • 1 trait line which have stunbreak on traitline which has low dps because it depends on boons and are outperformed by fire and wind (arcane)
    • we still have fury with wind traitline
    • might generation is now a mess since the patch feels like diarrhea
    • condi clean is a tricky thing I will show later down the text.
      This was more for pvp but in PvE it is even worse I go in naked basically especially what is missing is a stun break for pvE

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Well, pretty much every profession have their share of OP mechanisms without which they wouldn't work at all. That's normal that players find other professions OP, what's abnormal is that they ignore their own OP mechanisms. There are designs that are fondamentally wrong within the game but since they are the corner stone on which the different professions rely ANet just turn a blind eye on them.
    For example:

    • The warrior need long duration Hard CC for both it's defense and offense, he is design around the fact that he got access to them, however, long duration hard CC are a mechanism that's neither fun to play nor fun to play against.
    • The thief is designed around dealing short but high burst of damage from stealth, without that they barely work. However, because of this design they are permanently on the edge of the hammer nerf since 2013.
    • The necromancer rely on the shroud that's basically it's whole offense and defense in a single package. Who the hell thought that having your dps A game on your main damage mitigating skill would be a good idea?
    • ... etc.

    The game is just filled with monstruous designs and ANet push the different professions closer and closer to them seemingly oblivious to the fact that they are the things that create complains within the community (yet nobody would give up it's own OP mechanism, fighting hard to defend it).

    Yes also true but it is possible to fix some of it but that means often nerfing and buffing something at the same time e.g let theif choose dps or stealth, warrior need a overwork of thge weapon but I also kinda give up how to balance scourge it is a monster.

    @lare.5129 said:
    you not properly read treads. Mostly all topic about nerf or boos I read as fun post from troll, or noob, or just bored person.

    Also true but most of the most wicked nerfs buffs came out of people troll posting on this board . On the negativ was the might generation which they nerfed in the fire trait line but there is another discussion about which I know was a user suggestion back then the aura transmutation of the ele or better said a form of Heal Tempest is the only healer building remaining in the PvP meta . There was a new trait in the fire trait line which clears condition well which this build use usually you won't do that because you lose utility and cc this way

    We tested it in Wvw ...eo57rydo.png The one on the top is it true this is also cleansing fire but the difference is so 2x out of the powercurve
    Well it looks also a bit like trolling but it is like it is I swear